Episode 12 X-Ray

Mr Windows Cardiff Ltd went bust four weeks ago owing a quarter of a

million pounds, so why does it look like business as usual at the

company's factory? I'm up in Tywyn discovering how

hard it is to find a public toilet when you really need one

And a three hour wait for the meal to arrive - not the sort of wedding

reception Tracey and Brian dreamed Hello. Later in the programme we'll

be hearing from campaigners who want to see more public toilets

across Wales. I'll be finding out what facilities are like for

spending a penny here on Anglesey. But first, a conservatory must rank

as one of the most expensive things you'll ever buy. But for one couple

from near Pontypridd, what was planned as the final touch to their

home has turned into a bit of a nightmare. Rachel's been

Home is where the heart is, and for Simon Matthews and Kay Jones it's

this three-bedroom house in Beddau near Pontypridd. Simon moved in

with Kay early last year, and they've got big plans for the place.

Welcome to our home. This is the living room. A bit of a building

site at the moment. There's still a lot to do. Not least the couple's

dream of a large conservatory. here, as you can see. This was

going to be the conservatory, the area for the conservatory that we

wanted to build. A nice wide one, right the way across the back of

the house, going out. A lovely light room. Somewhere we could sit

and enjoy and chill out in the evenings.

The couple were hoping for something like this, perhaps, but a

lot bigger. So back in June last year, they contacted Mr Windows, a

company in Cardiff, to ask them to build their new conservatory. Plans

were drawn up and Simon put down a �3,000 deposit. It was a big

conservatory. It was in fact giving us the space in the garden. The

whole thing is literally a dream that we wanted. But there was one

nagging worry for the couple - this manhole cover and the drain that

lies beneath it. They say Mr Windows told them they could move

it as part of the total �15,000 cost of the new conservatory.

advised it was easy to move. They advised it was something they could

undertake within the costing of the job they'd priced. So did the

representative take good look at the drain? No, he didn't. All he

did was he looked at the surface of the drain. He's taken a photograph

of the drain. For a year, work progressed on the

house. Mr Windows installed new doors and glazing, but it wasn't

until this July that Simon and Kay rang the company to say they were

ready for them to start on the conservatory. We made provisional

sort of dates and plans on our calendar. Nothing was actually in

concrete, but certainly the plan was there to start the work.

soon became clear that Simon's worries about the drain were well-

founded, and moving it to make way for the conservatory was going to

be a much bigger job than Mr Windows seemed to have been

expecting. We had a visit from two subcontracting builders. I don't

think they were very happy in what they saw. They appeared to be quite

puzzled, and particularly in the sense of how they were going to

move this drain. Were you feeling you were losing confidence?

never felt we were getting a conclusive answer from them. We

asked them time and time again. "How are you going to move this

drain?" "How are you going to construct it?" "How are you going

to build it, and where are you going to move it to?"

More than a year after handing over their deposit, things were

definitely not going to plan. After several phone calls and letters,

Simon and Mr Windows Cardiff Ltd were no closer to an agreement

about moving the troublesome drain. By now, the couple wanted their

�3,000 refunded - and the company refused. Last month, the couple

brought in an independent surveyor, Tim Davies, to get a second opinion.

So, Tim, how unusual is this drain? It is quite unusual to have such a

deep drain like this in the back of a house. It's actually over seven

feet deep. It's a very deep inspection chamber. How difficult

is it to move something like this? Very difficult. A lot of work

involved with it, costly as well. Not a simple undertaking. Can you

believe that they didn't actually inspect it at the time of making

the contract? I'm quite shocked that they didn't simply just lift

the inspection chamber lid off, which is an easy thing to do, and

look down the hole. They would have seen it was a deep drain.

Simon and Kay commissioned Tim's report to help them decide what to

do next, and stop their conservatory plans going down the

drain. But before they'd even read the report, they had a letter from

Mr Windows. I found, to my amazement, that the company had

gone into liquidation. It was, put it this way, it was the world just

came from around you. It was absolutely dreadful. I had an awful

lump in my tummy. The main thing was I had to ring Kay. Kay was in

work, and to speak to Kay in work and tell her news, that we'd lost

money. I don't even want to go down that route again - the feelings of

it was dreadful. To add insult to injury, while Mr Windows was wound

up voluntarily on October 13th, exactly a month before, a new

company had been set up. This one had the rather similar name of Mr

Windows Doors and Conservatories Ltd, and the similarities don't end

there. The new company is based in exactly the same place as the old

one, with same phone number and the same person managing it. It just

makes it even more upsetting, it makes it even more annoying that

they are allowed to do this. That they're allowed to take people's

money, hard-earned money, and basically go into liquidation and

then set themselves up under a very, very similar name. It's

heartbreaking, it really is. what about the company's financial

position? Well, we've been doing some digging around and have learnt

that Mr Windows Cardiff Ltd owed more than a quarter of a million

pounds, and even if all the company's assets are sold, that

still leaves a shortfall of �113,000 owed to more than a dozen

suppliers and other creditors. So where does that leave Simon and

Kay, and is all of this legal? We got some advice from an expert in

company law. In setting up this second company, I believe that

they've placed themselves as directors at risk of being made

personally liable for the debt, because I think that a court would

look at it as a sham or a pretence. Legal action then seems like Simon

and Kay's best hope of getting their deposit back. But that

depends on a court ruling in their favour against the director of the

original Mr Windows Cardiff. They would be personally liable, so all

of their assets could be utilised in order to pay that debt.

For now, Simon and Kay are getting on with the work in the rest of

their house. Their plans for a conservatory on hold. We feel that

we've been robbed, we feel we've been let down in every way possible.

We find it very difficult how a company like that and their

representatives, with all due respect, how they can sleep at

Oh dear. So, Rachel, what is the company saying? They're denying

that the experienced builders they sent to move the drain at Simon and

Kay's property were unable to do the work. They say it was the

couple's request to re-site the drain to a particular place in the

garden, which would have required intensive work, which caused the

problem. They say there was no need to check the manhole cover until

the work was about to start. what did they do to try and sort

things out? They say there were various attempts at compromise, but

they all proved unsuccessful, and they point out that Simon and Kay's

request for their deposit back was made after the cooling-off period.

Now, what about the fact that Mr Windows Cardiff Ltd went into

liquidation? Well, they say that this wasn't an easy decision, but

they decided to liquidate that company owing to financial

difficulties and start up a new company, Mr Windows, Doors and

Conservatories Ltd, so that they could honour all the contracts and

keep some of their staff in work. Are they allowed to do that? I've

checked that with Tim Pryce-Brown, who you saw in the piece, and he

believes that if they have specifically set up a new company

to avoid the debts of the previous one, that is unlawful. Thanks,

Rachel. We'll be keeping an eye on that, then.

Now, you might wonder what we're doing outside the Senedd. Regular

viewers will know we've been looking at the carrier bag charge

introduced by the Welsh Goverment. And plenty more of you have been in

touch with some more of your thoughts. Fred Matthews from

Llanelli wants to know why we should pay to advertise the store

we bought the bags from. And Owen Francis, who's also from Llanelli,

also objects to paying for bags that advertise a shop's logo. He

says, "If they want to advertise on our bags, we should charge them."

And here's an interesting one from Leslie Lord from Rhosgoch on

Anglesey. He says he's convinced that a lot more of us will now be

buying plastic bin liners instead of using carrier bags, so just as

much plastic will find it's way to landfill, as people now have to buy

pedal bin liners instead. And this is a story we couldn't resist.

Steve Griffiths from Anglesey told us that when he went to a

conference for small businesses at Venue Cymru in Llandudno last week,

who was giving away these free plastic bags? Yes - the Welsh

Assembly Government. Steve says that it seems to him there's one

rule for them and one rule for everyone else. They admit there's

been "a regrettable oversight", and old promotional materials were used.

But they've taken immediate steps to ensure this will never happen

again. Good thing too! Next - time to sort out one of your

Rachel Morris from Holyhead thought her son's Xbox had tight security.

That was until her credit card details were used by someone else.

The system was hacked into and money was taken out of my account.

I'm still waiting for a refund from Xbox. Last Christmas, Rachel

surprised her son Adam with an Xbox. He wanted a new one. His friends

have all got Xboxes. And you went for Xbox Live. Tell me about that.

You have to have the internet, so you get connected to the internet,

and then if I put my bank details in, he can buy players, so he can

play with his friends online, and they can play football matches

against each other. But in April this year, a major

problem developed with the Xbox. wouldn't let him on. It said his

user number had been declined because somebody had hacked into it.

And what did you think when you saw that - did alarm bells start to

ring? Not until he actually said that your card details are in the

machine, he said it had been hacked. I never even thought that anybody

could get my bank details off it. So what did you do next? Phoned the

bank, they cancelled my card for me, and phoned up Xbox, and they said

that they'd look into it. Three days later, Rachel's fears of

a security breach were confirmed. phoned the bank straight away, and

they said that two transactions had come out. One was for �51 and one

for �42.50. And what did Xbox say after they'd investigated? They

said that it was a fraudulent claim, and that they'd send the money back

- it would be in my account within 30 days. But still nothing.

So, Rachel, what would you like me to do? To get my money back, please.

Well, it seems that Rachel did everything right. She immediately

got in touch with her bank when she suspected her credit card details

had been used. Rachel made sure no further money would be taken by

cancelling her credit card and setting up a new account. She told

Xbox about the problems, and made sure they investigated. So let's

Well, Microsoft, the company that makes the Xbox, has got back to me

they say they take the security of the Xbox Live service very

seriously. Microsoft has investigated Rachel's complaint

thoroughly, and say their records indicated that the refund was

received and cleared by her bank in September, at which point they

considered the matter closed. But they have now carried out a further

investigation, they thank Rachel for her patience, and have reissued

a refund. Xbox have now been in touch, and

I've had a cheque for a full refund of �93.50.

And remember, if you're struggling to get a consumer problem sorted,

get in touch. Our contact details Next, have you ever struggled to

find one of these? It seems public toilets are getting harder and

harder to find. Do you think there are enough toilets around here?

I don't think so. They are cheap to run and I think it is a totally

unnecessary move. I agree there should be more about.

Disgusting. They shouldn't even think about getting rid of them.

I think for cafes are a good option in town but out of time it is

harder. Rhod's been finding out what the

situation's like in other parts of When you're out and about, you

often hear the call of nature. And when you've gotta go, you've gotta

Getting caught short is never nice but it could soon be something

we're all going to have to get used For some people public toilets are

more than just a convenience. Here in Tywyn in mid Wales the residents

feel they deserve better facilities. I've come to meet some local people

As for the elderly and the disabled groups they are a necessity. People

plan their journeys around the toilet stops and if the toilets are

not there or locked they're unable to go out.

It's a great shame that they have to be housebound because of a

shortage of toilets. I've got a two-year-old son who I'm

potty training so I don't really want to stop on the high street or

the beach and get the potty out. It's very important that we've got

somewhere we can quickly access. Yes, it's very embarrassing if a

lady does need to go to the loo and there's nowhere to go.

It's not much to ask for, is it? I guess all you're asking for is

somewhere safe and somewhere clean to go.

Yeah, as a mum and as a pregnant woman it's really, really important.

Finding a public loo could be even trickier in the future. Over the

last 10 years, around four out of 10 public loos have been closed and

there are no laws forcing councils to provide them. But campaigners

are desperate to protect Wales' 600 remaining public toilets which they

fear could become the victim of spending cuts. Where you live can

have a big impact on where you can Pembrokeshire has the most public

toilets in Wales with the council there running more than 90, while

in Wrexham there are just 10 and in Louise Hughes has been fighting to

halt toilet closures for years and on Wednesday, she'll be joining a

demonstration at Cardiff Bay to try and protect public loos from

council spending cuts. Louise, this is one of the public toilets in

Tywyn and looking at the door it's very obvious that it's completely

and utterly bolted closed. It is and it's been locked for a

couple of years now and it's actually one of the most important

toilets in Tywyn because it's right on the beach. In the summer the

place is packed with families all on the beach and they can't go to

the toilet because the door is locked.

With regards to your passion for public toilets, so to speak, why?

Well it all started about three years ago and I saw an old lady on

the street in Tywyn and she was in floods of tears she was distraught

and it turns out she'd peed her pants, she'd wet her knickers and

she was utterly, utterly upset so I took her home and made her a cup of

tea and I thought this isn't right. This could be somebody's nan,

somebody's mother, and she'd lost all her dignity.

We're facing tough financial times. Do you think this could be the end

of public toilets? The way things are going there are

going to be none left, especially in rural areas, it hits us hardest.

In urban areas you have shops, businesses, cafes, pubs, we don't

have that here. We don't have that alternative.

So Louise, what's the solution? The point of my campaign is that I

would like to see it that local authorities have a statutory right

to provide public toilets. It's as simple as that.

That's the bottom line. And at a nearby beauty spot, Cregennan Lakes,

Louise showed me what can happen when people are left with nowhere

to go. The National Trust say they can no longer afford to maintain

the toilets and the nearest ones are now two miles down the road.

And in the middle of the National Parks, which is in the middle of

nowhere, some toilets. How handy! Not so handy, they're all locked.

Indeed, and people come here because it's so beautiful. They

come for a walk, they come all day, they come for a picnic and the

toilet block's closed, it's just so crazy.

And obviously the call of nature goes to nature itself. People just

go anywhere. Well yeah. People improvise and

they go behind the block and it's not pleasant, especially in the

summer when it's hot. There's been more people up here so there's more

mess. It's absolutely dreadful. Now watch where you stand.

Oh dear, dear, dear. That's not good is it?

It's not pleasant but then the toilet block is shut so what are

people supposed to do? Not a good situation. On Wednesday

the Welsh Senate for Older People will be holding a rally here

calling for a new law which would force councils to provide public

loos. They also want to see an improvement in the number and

quality of public toilets in Wales. Vanessa, you're from the WLGA which

represents Welsh councils. Why is the situation so bad?

It is a very difficult time for local authorities in Wales. They

have had cash cuts to their budget in this financial year and that

follows years of having had not so good settlements. Next year will be

the same so they are having to make difficult choices about what to

fund. From the scenes I witness myself,

the only words to describe it is disgusting. Purely and hygienic. To

these cuts mean the public has to suffer tremendously?

There are alternative solutions where a local authority makes a

decision about closing public toilets and it has discussions with

the local council about whether or not they want to take on the

service. There is also a grant scheme which has been run by the

Welsh Assembly Government and that provides local authorities with

money to give businesses so they can open their facilities to the

public to enable more provision within areas where public toilets

are closing. What is the answer?

It is difficult and I think the answer is a combination of the

local authority provision, town and community council provision and

also local businesses. Local authorities are having to make cuts

because of their financial settlement and we have to accept

the fact that some services won't be there in future.

Thanks, Vanessa. Next, a delicious meal is a pretty

important part of any wedding. But for one Newport couple and their

guests, there was disappointment in store.

The dress, the venue, the cakes, the menu, the rings, the flowers,

the first dance Organising a The secret to a successful day is

all in the planning and most brides start that the moment the question

has been popped. And Tracey Fowler was no different. When fireman

Brian Amos proposed it was second time lucky for the couple. And

after recovering from a mild stroke last year she was keen to have a

big celebration. Fairytale. That's what I was hoping

for, my family to all be together, and a lovely day, all my friends, a

lovely husband, our three children and a fairytale.

Brian and Tracey wanted to get married here, the Burleigh Academy

in Newport, the venue where they first got together. According to

its website, the Burleigh Academy is probably the most beautiful

wedding and civil partnership venue in Wales.

It's where we met, It's a special place, it's a beautiful venue, as

such and it was just a no-brainer really.

And the venue's owner, Sarah Lucas, the woman in the centre of this

photo, promised the couple a dream wedding.

She made me feel it would be the best wedding ever, "I'll make your

day special." She knew I'd been ill and she was quite excited, really

excited for us. As the wedding drew nearer the

couple paid Sarah in cash, as she had asked. They paid just over

�3,000 for the venue and staff and the rest, nearly �4,000 to cover

food and other costs. And, as is traditional for most

brides, on the day Tracey turned up a little bit late. And that's where

the problems started. What time were you supposed to get

there? 12 o' clock.

And what time did you get there? It's a street away so I got there

at 12:14pm. I couldn't wait. I got out of the car, and I was just so

excited and she said, "You're late, no photographs."

Basically by the time you'd got into the church I was facing the

other way obviously and I had a quick sneaky look back, just as the

music was playing, and you know you looked perfect.

After the ceremony, Brian and Tracey had their photographs taken.

Then they returned to the reception for the West Indian feast they'd

ordered in honour of Brian's Caribbean roots. But whilst

everyone was seated by 2:30pm, the guests were left waiting and

waiting to be fed. I was looking around the room and I

could see people weren't being fed at all.

I mean, this was over a period of time, it wasn't just over starter

and then there was a slight delay. This was somewhere between two and

three hours after we'd sat down to have our main course.

Did they seem stressed, the people in charge? Did you speak to Sarah?

Well my sister went to see her and asked what was going on, and she

said, explained then that the hot plate had broken and she was doing

the best she could. So then that rumour got round everybody then.

Well it was 5:45pm when my sister said that five tables, which were

ten people on a table, hadn't been fed.

It descended into chaos, actually, because people were saying three

people on the table had been served their main, some people had been

served coffee without having had a meal. Some people had vegetables

but the gravy had gone because it was cold, it had come back boiling

hot but then the vegetables were cold. There seemed to be no

coordination in the way the food was delivered at the table.

Some guests were kept waiting so long for their meals that they

decided to pop to the local chippy, not quite the wedding meal that

Tracey and Brian had planned. And because the meal was so late, there

wasn't time for all the speeches. The father of the bride, Derek

Pratt, never got a chance to toast his daughter.

I wanted to wish them all the best and everything and I was

disappointed I couldn't say that. As their plans fell apart, Tracey

and Brian were left deeply disappointed.

Well I didn't want anyone to see that I was upset. Just fighting

back the tears really, and just thinking in my mind, "This is not

going to spoil our day." Tracey and Brian returned here the

next day to complain and Sarah offered them �475. It was a figure

they were unwilling to accept. I was disappointed in that she said

she hadn't slept and that she realised she hadn't provided the

service which she said she would, remembering of course she said this

is going to be the best wedding ever.

Sarah Lucas then said she'd reconsider. But when the couple met

her again, she told them she wasn't prepared to offer anything.

Basically we met and she denied everything, she's saying that she's

offering us absolutely nothing. When we first contacted Sarah Lucas

about the problems with the meal, she said these issues needed to be

addressed to the caterers, a Pentecostal Church in Pill, who she

said the couple had booked themselves. But the ladies here at

the New Testament Church of God tell a different story. They say

they've never even met the couple. Sarah's letter to us also says the

caterers blame the food problems on the wedding couple's late arrival

at the reception. Consumer law expert Margaret Griffiths says

Sarah was wrong to says she doesn't hold responsibility and to blame

the church. She is responsible for this. When

you book a contract for the provision of the service it is the

person with whom you actually book it that is responsible and the fact

that as in this instance of a wedding breakfast, she can

subcontract the catering to someone else, she might have subcontracted

provision of flowers or some music or whatever but at the end of the

day, the customer's contract is with her and she is responsible on

The only fairytale bit was that I eventually married Brian and three

children are happy for us, but she did spoil the day.

Aw! Well we've heard more Sarah Lucas. She says the bride was 35

minutes late but there was only a slight delay before the food was

served to guests and only a few meals were cold. She points out

that an evening buffet for 230 was also served and she says the guests

enjoyed this immensely. But she is still willing to offer a refund of

�475 for the late service of some meals.

Well that's all we've got time for tonight. Wherever you are in Wales,