08/11/2012 Police Elections 2012

streets are policed? Nicky Campbell discusses that with experts and

victims of crime in Police Everybody has a view on how the

streets should be policed. Crackdown on anti-social behaviour,

more bobbies on the beat. In just over one week, the way the police

operate will change forever. That is when we elect brand new Police

and Crime Commissioner us. Through them, we get the chance to decide

how the police deal with everything from underage drinking, graffiti,

right through to gun crime. Tonight, we will explain the idea, look at

how it might work and discuss the issues that affect you. This is

Millions of us across England and Wales are being given a choice. Who

do we want to be a police and Crime Commission? Who should decide the

strategy for house St -- safe house St there. Why should we go to the

polls next week on a cold November night? The new police and crime

commissioners, will they make a difference? And what effect will it

have on where you live? Tonight, we will look at what these elections

mean for all of us. In the next half hour, we will be looking at

what difference these new police commissioners are going to make.

Later, we will ask, are the crop of candidates out there going in the

right direction? Guests include a spokesman from the human rights

group Liberty, who thinks it is disastrous out there. And the

person who helped designed -- the Sunday plan. But who will these

police commissioners be responsible for? -- what. They will hire a

chief constable, deliver a five- year crime clan and come up with

the Budget. And they will have to regularly consult us on the way the

police the streets. They might also be able to extend their influence

into how justice is administered through the courts as well. These

characters will be managing multi- million-pound organisations. They

will develop a plan that puts populations of millions into one

area. We have been trying to find out what the dog is all about.

The police have to manage all types of crime. Whether that is violent

crime in the city or anti-social behaviour in the countryside. The

government's advertising campaign is hard-hitting but the new Police

and Crime Commissioner for her to tap into people's everyday concerns.

The gangs that hang around, especially in the park. Where I

live, it's a motorway. More police. The commissioner's job is to listen

to the public. In the run-up to the elections, the candidates are about

making their promises to win votes. But once in office, they may

discover just how complex policing ease with conflicting demands. In

Middlesbrough, anti-social behaviour takes up most police time.

Hello! This man has suffered ten years of abuse, including two

petrol-bomb attacks, on his home. He knows exactly what he wants from

the new commissioner. They need to have more police on the beat.

Without that, people will just to suffer more. We need to target the

people who are causing trouble within the communities. Police on

the beat may reassure people their communities are safe. But deploying

them everywhere, all the time, is impossible. Different crimes need

different policing. In North Yorkshire, crime is relatively low.

Bobbies on the beat are not exactly a priority. But recently, the

village post office had its cash machine stolen. People still want

their fair share of policing. Two doors down from the Post Office,

this property has been broken into twice. She is concerned the rural

areas will be overlooked by the new police and Crime Commissioner.

concern is that such as the police commissioner might think petty

crimes, as it is labelled, doesn't matter but it does matter to people,

especially in rural areas. If somebody takes your trailer or your

bike or they break into your sheds, then it does affect those people.

We pay our taxes to and the matter. So, it is up to the Crime

Commission are to listen and deliver policing relevant to you.

And do it with limited resources. But that is not the only challenge.

There is the tricky issue of personalities. The new Crime

Commissioner will set the priorities for the chief constable.

How will they get on and can they agree on how to achieve what the

public wants to see? A reduction in crime. Keith Halliwell is a former

chief constable and knows how tough that job is. But he thinks the job

of a new Police and Crime Commissioner will be even harder.

It is enormously challenging because the individual will lead to

understand the so -- police service. The blue we do have a lot of

political though house and they will know her -- need to know how

to run an enormous organisation. It's a virtually impossible task

for any individual to do that. Strong words from Keith Tao Li will.

Virtually impossible for any one individual! -- Keith Halliwell.

That is not white. He is talking about managing the police force.

The chief constable is managing the police. He is a political leader

and will look at decisions and priorities. He will try to identify

policing needs but will not manage the force on a day-to-day basis.

There is a management team, a chief constable. They have been trained

and paid for that. That is their job! There was a lot about changing

police operations but this will not affect police operations, except if

the Chief Constable wants them to change. It is about priorities and

focusing on people's needs, I didn't find them, and making sure

the Chief Constable meets them. Power to the people? Have it is not.

It is power to any other elected politicians and we have seen too

much political interference in policing and law in order. How can

you argue against that? Democracy is not just about having elections.

Elected politicians are not the only people with authority in a

democracy. You also have to have the rule of law. Of course

politicians said the laws and decide what the police powers are.

But then you need independent professionals, who serve the whole

community. Whether they vote or not. Young, old, minorities and popular

majorities. I am worried this charismatic local politicians, if

that is who he is, rather than a police authority, I am worried that

this politician is going to be looking for the headlines and the

popular courses and not serving the tough needs of the entire community,

no matter how vulnerable they are. I just don't agree. I think Members

of Parliament serve the whole of their communities when they are

elected. I feel the Nadia mac serves the whole community of

London and I don't think we need to worry about their and the click

team v Colin into. But the public wants the law to be administered

with an even hand. They don't want the police chiefs to be elected. We

told whether they wanted the new system or whether they preferred

the existing system and a broader police authority. -- we polled. 65%

wanted to stay with the status quo. But you are still on the record as

saying that you accept people do not yet understand the concept of

this role in one individual's cans. You say it is the elections after

this one that will be really significant. What are the next four

Mackie is going to be? A pilot? next four years are a period when

the PCC's make a difference in their communities. And members of

those communities begin to realise that the PCC is someone who can

make a difference to their lives. Sadly, whereas now people have

never heard of them, they regard crime as something that is done to

them, not something they can control. But if you will not

interfere in operational policing, what is the great transformation he

will making people's lives? believe integration will leadership.

I believe the PCC can get a more effective police force by inspiring

and leading and supporting the chief constable. I don't see this

as a conflict... Let's talk about the practical and one of the

biggest police cover-ups in criminal history, Hillsborough. You

lost two a lovely girls there. did. Have you had a policing Crime

Commissioner there he was answerable to folks like yourself?

Would you have felt for is this for quite so long? The current system

does not seem to have worked for us. Some of the decisions the local

police authorities are not making have not worked for us. Like

certain people should have been suspended because of allegations

about them. It just did not happen. Because he is answerable to people

and take -- can get kicked out, that would have been better for

you? I would hope so. I would have hoped there would be more

transparency. More accountability because they were elected. As a

former top of yourself, more transparency? It's a real

possibility? I think it depends. Politicians are not unknown for

deciding to open up and the transparent just before an election

so it is addictive and that will happen. There would have to the

other leaders to resolve the type of situation that was also around -

- revolves around Hillsborough. But there are one or two new facets.

For all the floors, they do need in open and public meetings. Not with

a huge audience, because they are not widely interesting for money,

but they are public. Most of the decisions taken between the chief

and Crime Commissioner will be taking in a room on their own. Some

of that decision making in public might go. There is a big onus on

the individuals that take on this role to make sure the public

transparently CD decisions that are being taken and they are not done

in just got used to be called smoke-filled room. -- see the

decisions. Most chiefs will want to make that relationship work. That

will be unlikely to happen. I can hear what you're saying. I did not

realise that it would be an open forum where decisions would be made.

That is worrying. -- it would not be. But I come back to the

accountability of being elected. agree that there should be

accountability and what happened with Hillsborough is one of the

greatest policing standards of my lifetime. Police should have been

accountable to the law. I am not sure... It was ultimately people

power that forced change here. they were elected politicians.

Generations of them. Home Secretaries and others who did not

deal with this situation. Are you concerned that the police and Crime

Commissioner may not share your view? This is a constitutional

point. It is not about a liberal agenda or another agenda. It is

about saying you need checks and balances in a democracy and

independent people as well as political people. I would no more

have elected -- an elected judge. If you have elected judges, if you

put policing in the hands of elected politicians, they don't

necessarily serve the whole community, just the most popular

bit. A brief final comment. secretly. This is a job which

relates to... Which concerns the allegations of scarce resources.

Policing needs are infinite. Police resources are limited. Somebody

needs to make a decision. Is it the chief constable for is it a freely

elected PCC, who passed to defend his actions at the polls? And every

day, the local media will ensure that this is transparent. Thank you

to all of you. Later, we will look at what the candidates themselves

say that they will do if they are elected. What their priorities are.

These commissioners are going to have a huge effect on where you

We are now joined by an ex- policeman. Broadly speakingFavour

of this. But to have some questions to the route to wit. What would a

good police commissioner or outstanding police commissioner

look like? They will have moved beyond the police. They will be the

person in their community who the public think of and one to think

about who is responsible for solving crime problems in the area.

So such as? Such as how the police are dealing with domestic abuse or

how the courts are sentencing. You have got someone there who may be

able to challenge and question and provide a budget to provide a

solution. What is your nightmare scenario? Not very dissimilar. We

have got the politician interfering with the quotes as well. This is

why the distinction between the priorities and the operations does

not seem to stick. If we are talking about an elected politician

who will get mixed up not the police should do and what the

courts should do, we have got someone booking for the popular

choices, the easy choices, and not be difficult choices that need to

be made to protect everybody. would you judge a successful Crown

Commissioner? Is the community safer. Let us see whether the

Community is safer. I have seen that working in Philadelphia. You

have the police chief who does the policing but you have a

commissioner who inspires and motivates. Someone who brings the

community end. Who makes the community feel that this is a

Community-wide effort. People talk about them resolving conflicts. In

need to work with them. They provide the professional expertise.

You inspire and lead them. You make sure where the resources are put is

where the members of the community really want them. A few are trying

to involve the community, why not one just have a board? We have

looked at the candidates. Most of them are men. It is actually early

days. People come to an understanding in years to come.

That is a clever way of justifying that only 20% of the voters will

turn out. What kind of legitimacy is that? We give them a vote. It is

a free vote. And it looks like they're voting with their feet.

They did not want it. What will be light ball moments beat? -- the

white ball but moments beat? think people will see in their

community they're getting the kind of policing and attention being

paid to the things that bother them. They are going to get policing

services that they need. We just need to get his son has of reality.

-- a sense. They will try to make a reasonable job with a great deal

less. They have got two years of significant cuts. They have been

working on spreading less jam to try and get things sustained. The

first problem is likely to be the Budget. This is all under the

umbrella of a drive for localism. One of the benefits is the shift

out of the Home Office. They will regret the loss of the dead hand of

the Home Office. But there needs to be a sense of realism. Some people

think this will somehow make dramatic improvements. That you

will get all the policing you want. That is not in reality. There will

be a drop in police numbers. Just getting to the point where

everything drops off. More salaries for politicians and less police

officers. Localism is all very well and good. But some aspects of

policing cannot be local. Terrorism, people trafficking. What about the

riots? Police forces had to cooperate. What is going to happen

when you have a situation like that again and the Chief Constable wants

to send some officers to a neighbourhood? They are

establishing an international crime agency. They are aware for the

commissioners to cooperate. But he says no. They are Contiki at the

offices here. They will not help the people in the next county.

would be a pretty tough ties for a PCC to say no when London is

burning. That would be a tough dialogue between the PCC and the

chief about sustaining that effort. They are going to want the

resources visibly in force. There is a range of major operations that

could strip that out. Hard questions about continuing to put

those resources into a massive search across Wales, for example.

This type of choices are going to get scrutiny. The next two years

will be hard. Who do want to make those tough decisions? Should they

be made by the Chief Constable influenced by the Home Office? What

do we want it made by people who are local? People who live in the

local community who care about it. There are 193 candidates standing

in these elections. Each has to produce a statement about what they

want to achieve. Some of them mentioned the military background,

some talk about the police authority, and they often use the

phrase, the bigger they are, the more the commonly appear. At 55,000

words, and the 30 uses of the word alcohol. Is that the right

emphasis? One phrase that is quite common is anti-social behaviour. It

is the sort of every day low-level nuisance crime that so many of us

suffer from. We are going to have a look at some of the CCTV footage.

Talk us to what. He is just throwing stones. Just

uncontrollable. Kept going to court. Kept trying to get evicted. Life

became unbearable. The police hunt proactive any more. They are just

reactive. A crime would happen. They cannot do it any more. Oh food

intrusive and Gooch who could a do to have someone who is possibly

independent. -- I think in principle it would be a good idea.

But they do not have enough powers. They need to have a lot more powers.

They can look at the case management and find out what is

going wrong with it. Starting to look at what is going wrong. This

is not just about the police budget. It is trying to figure out why

things are ineffectual. Why are numerous crimes committed against

people and they are not caught? Why are the prisons not sorting them

out? Here is one for you. They should have more power. There is a

certain amount of flexibility and legroom for more power to evolve.

am not sure they need more power. Their job is to identify it

policing needs and to deal with the Chief Constable's and victims'

groups to meet these policing needs. They need leadership, not power.

totally disagree. The whole problem is that when you get beneath the

surface, you need to get to the very basics of why that cases such

a problem. To go in and look at the case management. Why is the

evidence collection not good enough, or why are you having multiple

crimes in areas over and over again? The same people being

targeted. The woman who would be successful or man would be

successful says they will do this for you and they would be elected?

You cannot have the same estate and same street targeted time after

time. Anyone who is any good as a PCC will have a map on his wall.

They will know where the crimes are. I've seen this and I know what

happens. They will go to the Chief Constable and ask why they have got

another broker writ for robbery on this estate. -- burglary or. A key

point that some have raced. What if nobody votes? For people in gangs,

the people affected by gangs disproportionately, do not live in

the leafy areas. This is what I feel the danger is. How are you

going to communicate with these people in those communities? It

cannot just be a one-off thing. you think somebody will stand up

and say they will help you? They might go with populist messages.

their support within the community they will not want help, they will

want to change their community. There needs to be a use worker,

someone they can go to and speak to. Could these issues get tackled?

Definitely. There needs to be more communication with the young people.

The more we come together, the more the problem will be resolved.

Already you can see these size of some of the issues we have been