East Midlands Police Elections 2012

Everyone has got a view on how the streets should be policed.

Crackdown on anti-social behaviour, more bobbies on the beat... Well,

in just over a week, the way the police operate could change ever. -

- will change for ever. That is when we elect brand-new police and

crime commissioners. We will get the chance to decide how the police

deal with everything from under- aged drinking, graffiti, it right

through to gun crime. Tonight, we are going to explain the idea, look

at how it might work and explain the issues that affect you. This is

Millions of us across England and Wales are being given a choice. Who

do we want to be our Police and Crime Commissioner? Who do we want

to decide the strategy for how Save Our streets are, to look after

victims? Why should we go to the polls next week on a cold November

night for these controversial elections? The new police and Crown

Commissioners - it will they really make a difference? And what effect

will the changes have where you live? We will be looking at what

these police elections mean for all of us.

In the East Midlands - Blue Lamp all red alert to? Are you still in

the dark about this influential new role? Just how will police and

Crown Commissioners really work closer to home, and will they

actually make us feel any safer? So, in the next half hour, we are

going to be looking at what difference these new police

commissioners are going to make. Later, we will be asking whether

the crop of candidates out there are going in the right direction.

Our guests include Shami Chakrabarti from the human rights

group capability. A man who helped to design the plan is also with us.

But what will these Police Commissioner's actually be

responsible for? They will be able to hire and fire a chief constable,

they will have to deliver a five- year policing plan and come up with

a budget, and they will have to regularly consult us on the way

they police the streets. They might also be able to extend their

influence into how justice is administered through the courts.

These characters will be managing multi-million pound organisations

and developing a plan that covers populations of millions, all within

one police force area. It is a huge task. We have been trying to find

out just what the job is all about. The police have to manage all types

of crime, whether that is violent crime in the City or anti-social

behaviour in the countryside. The government's advertising campaign

is hard-hitting but the new Police and Crime Commissioner will have to

talking to people's everyday concerns. The gangs that hang

around, especially in the park. Police doing speed tests because

when I live, they use the road like a motorway. A crime commission a's

job is to listen to the public. And in the run-up to the elections, the

candidates are out making promises to win votes. But once in office,

they may discover just how complex policing is, with conflicting

demands. Here in Middlesbrough, anti-social

behaviour takes up most police time. Hello, Ron. One has suffered 10

years of abuse, including two petrol bomb attacks on his home. --

won it has suffered. They need to sort the estate out. More police

presence because without that, pearly pink -- people are just

going to suffer more. They need to target the people causing trouble

within communities. Police on the beat me reassure people that

communities are safe but deploying them everywhere, all the time, is

impossible. Different crimes need different policing. Take this town

in North Yorkshire where crime is relatively low. Bobbies on the beat

are not exactly a priority but recently, the Post Office had its

cash machine stolen. We were round here still want their fair share of

policing. Two doors down from the Post Office, Karen's property has

been broken into twice. She is concerned that rural areas will be

overlooked by the new Police and Crime Commissioner. My concern is

that such as the police commissioner might think that petty

crime, as it is labelled, does not matter but it does matter to people,

especially in rural areas. If somebody takes your trailer or your

bike or break brigand your sheds, then it does affect those people. -

- break into. So it is up to the crime Commissioner to listen and to

the policing relevant to you, and do it with limited resources. But

that is not the only challenge. There is the tricky issue of

personalities. The new commissioner will set the priorities for a chief

constable. How will they get on and can they agree on how to achieve

what the public wants to see? Keith Halliwell is a former chief

constable and knows how tough that job is. But he thinks that the job

of any Police and Crime Commissioner will be even harder.

It is enormously talented because the individual will need to

understand the police service. They will meet a lot of political nous.

They will need to know how to run an enormous organisation and they

will be do have the confidence of the public and the media. It is a

virtually impossible task for any individual to do that. Strong words

there. A virtually impossible task for any one individual. I don't

think that's right. He is talking about managing the police force.

The chief constable will manage the police force. The PCC is not

managing - he is a political leader and will look at decisions about

priorities. He will try to identify policing needs but he is not going

to be managing the force on a day- to-day basis. There is a management

team, there is a chief constable, their resistance who are trained

and get paid for that. That is their job. There was a lot about

changing police operations. This is not going to affect police

operations, except if the Chief Constable wants them to change. It

is about priorities. It is about focusing on people's needs,

identifying those needs and making sure the Chief Constable meets them.

It is power to the people, Shami Chakrabarti. It's not. It is power

to unelected politician and I think we have seen too much political

interference. It is democracy. How can you argue against that?

Democracy is not just about having elections and elected politicians

are not the only people with authority in a democracy. You also

need the rule of law. Of course politicians that the laws and

decide what the police powers are but then you need independent

professionals who serve the whole community, whether they vote or not

- young, old, minorities as well as majorities. I am worried that this

charismatic local politician, if that's who he is - it will normally

be he, let's be clear, rather than a diverse Police authority - and I

am worried that this politician is going to be looking for the

headlines and the popular causes, and not serving the tough needs of

the entire community, no matter how vulnerable they are. I just don't

agree. I think members of Parliament serve the whole of their

communities when they are elected. I think the mayor serves the whole

of the community of London. I don't think we need to worry about PCC's

neglecting bits of their communities. But the public want

the law to be administered with an even hand. They don't want judges

or police used to be elected. We pulled the public last year about

whether they wanted this new system. -- ran a poll among the public. 65%

of the people we asked said they would rather stick with the status

quo. Only 15% thought that they were Trust the elected politician

over the chief constable under the existing system. You on the record

as saying it may well be a very bow turn out and do accept that. You

have also said that people don't yet understand the concept of this

role in one individual's hands. You are saying it is the elections

after this one that are going to be been a significant, so what are the

next four years going to be - a kind of pilot? No, they are a

period when the PCC's begin to make a difference in their communities

and members of those communities begin to realise that this PCC is

someone who can make a difference to their lives. And suddenly, you

will find that whereas now, people have never heard of PCCs, they

regard crime as something that is done to them not something that

they can control. But if he is not going to interfere in operational

policing, what is his great transformation he is going to make?

I believe in inspirational leadership. I believe the PCC can

get a more effective police force by inspiring and leading and

supporting the chief constable. I don't see this as a conflict...

Let's Talk About one of the biggest police cover-ups in criminal

history, Hillsborough. Jenny, you lost your two lovely girls and you

and Trevor have been stalwart campaigners. If you had a Police

and Crime Commissioner there he was answerable to people like yourself,

which you have felt voiceless for quite so long? The current system

doesn't seem to have worked for us. Some of the decisions that the

local police authorities are not making have not worked for us, like

certain people should have been suspended because of allegations

about them. It just didn't happen. So you think a Police and Crime

Commissioner, because he is answerable to people and can be

kicked out after four years, it would have been a better situation

for you? I would hope so. I would hope there would be more

transparency, more accountability from them because they are

collected. As a former top cop yourself, more transparency and

more accountability - is this a real possibility? I think it

depends. Politicians are not unknown for deciding not to open up

and be transparent just before an election so why do the gig would be

given that that would happen. You would need other levers to resolve

the type of situation that revolves around Hillsborough. There are some

facets of the new role and these authorities, for all their floors,

do meet in public meetings, not with a huge audience present but

they are, at least, a public meeting. Most of the decisions

taken between Air Chief and the PCC will be taken in a room with a cup

of coffee on their own. Some of that decision making in public

might go and there is a big bonus on the individuals that take on

this role to make sure that the public transparently see the

decisions being taken and that they are not just done in what used to

be called a smoke-filled rooms. could get horrendous personality

clashes. That is a distinct possibility but most chiefs will

want to make that relationship work, so I think that would be unlikely

to happen. I can hear what you are saying. I didn't realise that it

wouldn't be in an open forum that decisions would be made. So that's

quite worrying. That's not good for transparency, is it? However, I

come back to the accountability of being elected by the public.

agree that there should be accountability and what happened

with Hillsborough is one of the greatest policing scandals of my

lifetime. The police there should be accountable to the law and I am

not sure... It was people power, wasn't it, that forced to change

here? And isn't this an expression of democratic law? But there were

generations of democratically elected people who did not deal

with this situation. Are you concerned that the PCC may just not

show your liberal agenda? No, not at all. This is a constitutional

point I'm making. It is not about a liberal agenda or another agenda.

It is about saying you need checks and balances in a political

democracy. I would no more have an elected judge... If you put

policing in the hands of elected politicians, they do not

necessarily serve the whole community - just the most important

bits. A brief final comment. I see it completely differently. This is

a job which relates to the allegation of scarce resources. We

have always known that is a role for politicians. Policing needs are

infinite, policing resources are very limited. Someone has to make

that decision. Is it a chief constable who makes that or is it a

freely elected PCC who has to defend his actions at the polls?

And every day, the local media will ensure that this is transparent.

Thank you all very much for now. Later, we will be looking at what

the candidates themselves say they are going to do if they are elected

- what their priorities are. These commissioners are going to have a

I am here at the Galleries of Justice for Nottingham. Criminals

have always been dealt with here. Is the jury out on how hour

police's -- policing is run? First, Jeremy Ball looks at the problems

the new commissioners will have to Nottingham City Centre. By day,

it's a magnet for shoppers. But at night, it's a place that many of

these people prefer to avoid. Last time we came, it was terrible.

They were being sick in the street. My daughter and son will come into

town and I worry for them. If I did come in, I would be rather

frightened. Why? Because of these yobs coming out of clubs and the

drunken ness. Just try stopping this lot though! Because thousands

of people enjoy nights out in the city centre without a hint of

trouble. And the bars and clubs are huge part of Nottingham's economy.

But as the night wears on, the drink takes its toll. And the

police have to deal with the consequences. And it didn't take us

long to find victims of late-night violence, both here and elsewhere.

Getting marked and having a knife pulled on me. It was disturbing.

live in Leicester and in Leicester I have been robbed a few times.

They come and start attacking me. They took my friend. I got attacked

by 16 lads in Borwell. We came out of the pub and came home with cuts

and bruises all over my faith. They batted me.

That's why bars and clubs that stay open after midnight, could soon

have to pay towards the policing costs. That night-time levy's been

decided by Nottinghamshire's Police Authority. But they're going to be

replaced by the new elected commissioner. And they're not

convinced by the change. This one person who is expected to

understand policing in the county, they 16 people in the police

authority who have that Brett of experience. When you look at the

candidates in Nottinghamshire, there has to be concern that there

is not that experience of policing and the City that will be necessary

to ensure the safety of local people in the community.

You can bet they won't be talking about Police Commissioners out in

the pubs and clubs tonight. But it's been described as the biggest

change in policing in over a century. And the government hopes

it'll give us all a say in how the police keep us safe.

Rick Moore has been involved in the justice system for years in

Leicester. You like the idea of a directly elected -- elected

commissioner. I like the agenda for Police and Crime Commissioners. It

is broader than many people seem to believe, which is just managing the

police budget. I also like the single point of accountability.

Last year I stood in the mayoral elections but didn't succeed. I

have seen a mayoral system in operation and I believe, without

agreeing on everything, that single point of accountability has worked

well. He thought of standing. stand. I was going to initially and

tell I concluded that the Government didn't have an awful lot

of interest in independence, which is how I stood in the mayoral

election. Nick Howe, you are a lecturer in criminology at the

University of Derby and a former chief superintendent with 30 years'

police experience. You are not convinced. If I am concerned with

the political interference in relation to policing. Policing is

based upon policing by consent and largely policing is free from

political interference. Perhaps politics and policing don't mix. Is

that one of the reasons why you stood down as a candidate? It is a

risk. We all have to anticipate and accept that risk. It isn't strong

enough for me to be swayed from my belief that this is a good idea.

Marian Lewis, until recently you were then national chair of

neighbourhood watch. Your own father had what was murdered. Was a

police commissioner have helped to as a victim of crime? I don't know

if you would have helped me personally. If it would have meant

that the people around where my father in-law have lived and the

people are represented, if they are able to hold the police and crime

Commissioner to account with more accountability for members of the

public, I would be in favour of it. That is yet to be proven. If you

are undecided, what will sway you? It is the greater sense of

community engagement, more accountability, much better

consultation with the public, not just form-filling but engaging face

to face. That is when you find out what people really need and require

for their own policing needs. we have had problems here with

crime. The perception perhaps that perhaps the police haven't reacted

quickly enough. Would i directly appointed Commission have their ear

to the ground more? I don't think so. Most of the politics is around

-- rhetoric is around soundbite politics. It is that complexity

that concerns me regarding Police and Crime Commissioners and the

simplicity they put to policing. Marian, what to think that they

might be more in touch with the community? I would like to think

that that one person in that one role will be able to manage the

accountability and the engagement with the community. It does beg the

question, is that a big job for one person? Add the red we have a

broader range of people but then again, are the police authority

truly represented? Is the job too big for one person or is it better

for 16 people on the police authority to do their job? Police

authorities have done good work but it is quite wrong to believe that

because they are democratically elected as local authority

councillors. They are therefore going to be effective in a police

authority. I believe they should hardly spend any time in his or her

office, round the community, listening to communities,

understanding what they want and be taking that back to the police

chief officer. I will make one point and Pickup on something that

Nick said. Police and Crown Commissioners will not be

operational. If they fear into operational matters, we are in a

serious place. You feel that way to? I do indeed. It is a dangerous

slope if we go down that road. I wish the police and crime

Commissioner well. They are offering -- operating against the

backdrop of the austerity measures. They are trying to police against

20% cut. Irrespective of Police and Crime Commissioners, they will have

their work cut out. What to say to people who don't know whether they

will vote. Don't miss this opportunity. If you want to realise

how crime is managed in your area, a boat. Only vote if you think they

will make a difference. That is where we will leave it here. Back

to Nicky Clarke. There are 193 candidates standing

in these elections and each has to produce a statement about what they

want to achieve. I have all of them here. So mentioned them military

background, some talked about their former role with the police

authority and here are the words they used. The bigger they are, the

more they commonly appear. Hundreds of mentions. 60 references to drugs

and out of 55,000 words, only 30 uses of the word, alcohol, when 40

yard per cent of crime is fuelled by and -- alcohol. One phrase that

is common is anti-social behaviour. It is mentioned 117 times and that

is the everyday low level nuisance crime that so many of us suffer

from. You have suffered terribly from it. He even got to the stage

where you set up this CCTV camera. We were look at that footage now.

Talk us through it. They were and controllable. Targeting us are

repeatedly. In the end, life became unbearable. The big problem is the

police do seem to be not proactive. A crime would happen and they can't

do that anymore. Would the crime commissionaire galvanise them?

principle, it is a good idea they have someone who is possibly

independent. The authorities to mark their own homework all the

time. I don't think they have enough powers. They need to have

more powers to audit cases as soon as a case has gone on. The look at

the case management, what is going wrong with it. They start to get

other people to look at what is going wrong. This is about trying

to understand what is going wrong, why things are ineffectual as to

why are numerous crimes committed and why are they not Court? Enough

power. This is not enough power. There is flexibility and legroom

for more powers to evolve, isn't there? I think their job is to

identify a policing needs and to deal with their chief constables

and the voluntary organisations and the victims' groups to meet these

needs. They don't need power, they need leadership. I totally disagree

because the whole problem is when you start getting beneath the

surface of what one Chief Constable has said and the people who are

fobbing you off, a unit to get the basics of why their cases such a

problem. -- you need. You need to look at up who is doing what as to

why is the evidence collection not good enough? By you have a multiple

-- why you are having multiple crimes in areas over and over again.

No one is cutting crime. The woman or man who will be successful and

says, I will do this for you and he will get elected. You can't have

the same estate, the same street targeted at a time after time.

Anyone who is any good will have a map on his wall and will no and

will know where the crimes are. I know what happens. Why have we got

a robbery on this estate? It is a different story from investigating

a case. You are a former gang member, turned it around. The

people in gangs, the people affected by gangs do not live in

the leafy areas which vote in these elections. We be listened to?

is what I feel a big danger is in the committee. There is a sense of

have you will communicate with these people in the committee's. It

can't be just a one-off thing after six months. Do you think somebody

will stand up and say they will help you people or will they get

the votes elsewhere with populist messages? If there is support

within the committee, the committees are going to want to

help and to change their communities. If they don't know who

to go to go to, then used to be someone there that they can go to

and speed to on a regular basis to get some of these issues tackled.

Could they get tackled but these Police and Crime Commissioners?

Definitely. Them is to be more communication. The more we come

together as a collective, the more we will solve the problem. That is

half-an-hour and already you can see the sides of some of the issues

we are talking about. If you want to know more from the candidates,

BBC local radio will be holding debates from 9:00am tomorrow