East Yorkshire and Lincolnshire Police Elections 2012

Every one has a view on how the streets should be policed.

Crackdown on anti-social behaviour, more bobbies on the beat. In just

over one week, the way the police operate will change for ever. That

is when we elect brand new Police and Crime Commissioner and through

them we will get the chance to decide how the police deal with

everything from under-aged drinking, graffiti, through to gun crime.

Tonight we will explain the idea, look at how it might work and

discuss the issues that affect you. This is police elections, time to

choose. Millions of people in England and

Wales are being given a choice, who do we want to be Our Police and

Crime Commissioner. Who do we want to decide the strategy for how safe

the streets are and look after victims? Why should we go to the

polls on a November night? The new Police and Crime Commissioners

really make a difference. And what effect will the changes have way

you live? Tonight we look at what the elections mean for all of us.

In East Yorkshire and Lincolnshire they will be in charge of to rural

and diverse areas. Join me later from the Victorian prison in

Lincoln where we hear how you think the money should be spent and where

priority should live for the winning candidate. In the next

half-hour we will look at what difference the new commissioners

will make. Later we will be asking our the crop of candidates out

there going in the right direction? Guests tonight include the human

rights group Liberty, who think it is disastrous. And the person who

helped to design the plan. What will the commission has been

responsible for? They will be able to hire and fire a Chief Constable

and deliver a five-year police and crime clan and come up with the

Budget. They will have to regularly consult us on the way they police

the streets and they might also be able to extend their influence as

to how justice is administered through the courts. These

characters will manage multi- million-pound organisations. They

will develop a plan that covers populations of min mints -- of

millions. It is a huge task and we try to find out what the job is

about. The police have to manage all types

of crime, whether it is violent crime in the City or anti-social

behaviour in the countryside. The Government campaign it is hard

hitting, but the new commissioner will have to tap into everyday

concerns. The gangs that hang around in the park. Doing speed

tests on my road they look it -- use it like a motorway. More on the

beat. They job is to listen to the public and in the run-up to

elections, candidates are making their promises to win votes. Once

in office, they may discover how complex policing is, with

conflicting demands. In Middlesbrough, anti-social

behaviour takes up most police time. This man has suffered ten years of

abuse including two petrol bomb attacks on his home. He knows what

he wants from the new Police and Crime Commissioner. They need to

sort out the estate with more police on the beat. Without that,

people will suffer more. We need to target the people causing the

trouble within communities. Police on the beat may reassure people

their communities are safe, but applying them everywhere and all

the time is impossible. Different crime needs different policing.

Take this place in North Yorkshire where crime is relatively low.

Bobbies on the beat are not a priority, but recently the village

post office had the cash was -- cash machine sternum. Karen's

property has been broken into twice -- stolen. She is concerned rural

areas will be overlooked by the new Police and Crime Commissioner.

concerned the Police and Crime Commissioner might think that petty

crime does not matter, but it does matter to people, especially in

rural areas. If somebody takes your trailer, bicycle, breaks into your

shed, it affects those people and we pay taxes and we matter. So it

is up to the Police and Crime Commissioner to deliver policing

relevant to you and do it with limited resources. That is not the

only challenge. There is the issue of personalities. The new Police

and Crime Commissioner will set us there priorities for the Chief

Constable. How will they get on? Can they agreed on how to achieve

what the public want, a reduction in crime? This is a former Chief

Constable who knows how tough that job is. He thinks the job of the

new Police and Crime Commissioner will be even harder. It is

challenging. The individual will need to understand the police

service and have a lot of political knowledge. They need to know how to

run an enormous organisation and have the confidence of the public

and media. It is a virtually impossible task for anyone to do

that. Strong words. Virtually impossible task for any one

individual. I do not think that is right. He is talking about managing

the police force. The Chief Constable will manage the force.

The Police and Crime Commissioner is a political leader who will look

at decisions about priorities and identify policing needs. He will

not be managing the force on a day- to-day basis. There is a management

team who have been trained for that and they are paid for that. There

was a lot at the beginning about changing police operations. It will

not affect operations except if the Chief Constable wants them to

change. It is about priorities and focusing on needs, identifying the

needs and making sure the Chief Constable meets them. It is power

to the people? It is power to another elected politician and we

have seen too much political interference in policing already.

It is democracy. To democracy is not just about having elections.

Elected politicians are not the only people with authority in a

democracy, you have to have the rule of law. Politicians that the

laws, but you need independent professionals who serve the

community, whether they vote or not, young and old, minorities and

popular majorities. I am worried the charismatic local politician if

that is who he is, and it will normally be a he, and I am worried

this politician is going to be looking for headlines and the

popular causes and not serving the tough needs of the entire community,

no matter how vulnerable they are. I just do not agree. They serve a

whole of their communities when they are elected. The mayor serves

the whole of the community of London. I do not think we need to

worry about Police and Crime Commissioners neglecting parts of

their community. They want the law to be administered with an even

hand. They do not want judges and police chiefs being elected, and we

Poles the public about the system, whether they preferred the existing

system were the Chief Constable and broader police authority. 65% said

they would rather have the current system. Only 15% thought they would

trust the elected politician. have said that it may be a low

turnout. You have said people do not understand the concept of this

role in one individual's hands. You say the elections after this will

be the ones that are significant. What will the next four years be, a

pilot? No, it will be a period when the Police and Crime Commissioners

make a difference in the communities and members of the

communities realise that this person is someone who can make a

difference to their lines. Suddenly, you will find that whereas now

people have not heard of them, they regard crime as something done to

them, not something they can control. If he does not interfere

in operations, what is the transformation going to do in

people's lives? I believe in inspirational leadership and the

Police and Crime Commissioner can get a more effective police force

by inspiring and leading and supporting the Chief Constable. I

do not see this as a conflict. its talk about the practical and

the biggest police cover-up in criminal history, Hillsborough. You

lost your two lovely children at Hillsborough. You are campaigners.

If you had had a Police and Crime Commissioner answerable to people

like you, would you have felt without a voice for so long? That

current system has not worked for us. Some of the decisions the local

police authorities are not making have not worked for us. Such a set

and people should have been suspended because of allegations.

It did not happen. The think the commissioner, because he is

answerable, he can be kicked out, that would have been a better

situation for you? I would hope so. That there would be more

transparency. That there would be more accountability because they

were elected. Peter, as a former top policeman, more transparency

and accountability? Politicians are not unknown for deciding not to

open up and be transparent just before an election, so I do not

think that is a given. You would need other leaders to resolve the

situation revolving around Hillsborough. There are other

facets. Police authorities to meet in public meetings. Not with a huge

audience because they are not interesting for many. But they are

a public meeting. Most decisions taken between their Chief Constable

and Police and Crime Commissioner will be taken on their own. Somehow,

some of the decision-making in public might go. And it is for the

individual who takes on the role to make sure the public transparently

see the decisions being taken. could get personality clashes.

is a possibility. Most chief constables will want to make the

relationship work. I think that will be unlikely to happen. I can

hear what you are saying. I did not realise that it would not be in an

open forum that the decisions would be made, so that is worrying and

not good for transparency. I come back to accountability and being

elected by the public. I agreed there should be accountability and

what happened with Hillsborough is one of the greatest policing

scandals. The police should have been accountable to the law and I

am not sure... It was people power that forced to change. Is this an

expression of democratic will? Generations of politicians did not

deal with this situation. Are you concerned that a Police and Crime

Commissioner might not share your liberal agenda? Not at all, I am

making a constitutional point. It is about saying you need checks and

balances in democracy and independent people as well as

political people. I no more have an elected charge -- back I would.

They do not necessarily serve a whole community. I see it

differently. This is a job that relates and concerns the

allegations of scarce resources. We know that is a role for politicians.

Policing needs are in for that and resources are limited. Some body

has to make a decision. Is it a Chief Constable or a free elected

Police and Crime Commissioner who has to defend his actions and every

day the media will ensure this is transparent. Thanks. Later, we will

be looking at what the candidates themselves say they will do if they

are elected and what their priorities are. The commission

plural will have a big effect on 150 years ago, convicted criminals

may well have found themselves locked up here at the prison within

the walls of Lincoln Castle. During the mid-19th century, this prison

housed people from all walks of life who found themselves on the

wrong side of the law. At the same time, one of the last County police

forces to be created in England was here in Lincolnshire. Then, like

now, the force was run by the Chief Constable. A week tomorrow, voters

in Lincolnshire and in the Humberside police area will choose

their police and crime commissioners. They'll decide how

money is spent on policing the area. The Humberside force has a budget

of �181.7 million and more than 1,800 full time officers. There are

seven candidates. Godfrey Bloom, an MEP who is standing for UKIP.

Simone Butterworth for the Liberal Democrats. Paul Davison and Neil

Eyre who are both independents. Lord John Prescott is the Labour

Candidate, Matthew Grove is standing for the conservatives and

Walter Sweeney as an independent. In Lincolnshire the commissioner

will run a budget of 113 million pounds, the smallest of any force

in the country per head of population. There are just over

1,100 full-time officers working in the county. These are the

candidates you'll be voting for. David Bowles from the Campaign To

Stop Politicians Running Policing. Richard Davies is the conservative

candidate, Paul Gleeson is standing for Labour and Alan Hardwick is an

independent. One thing both forces have in common is large areas of

countryside. That creates a challenge for resources. Tim

Iredale has been to Holton-Le-Clay on the border of both forces to

hear what people there will expect Estate agents may well describe

Holton-Le Clay as a quiet village offering the best in rural living.

But some residents and business owners say in recent years, there's

been a darker side to life in this corner of Lincolnshire. One village

shopkeeper described his fears. What sort of problems do you have

here? People stealing from the shop. Kids drinking and creating trouble.

Making a nuisance? Yes, that's right. We have an influx of young

people who would come in on a Saturday night, drinking and

causing mayhem. The council put measures and place and the police

gave us a bit more presence. Tonight, the streets of Holton-Le-

Clay a quiet. This youth club has been set up to keep teenagers off

the streets. Why is there so much anti-social behaviour on the

streets? There is not much to do. There is just nothing. We live on

the periphery of Lincolnshire police force. It is very rare to

see police officers here. That would be a thing parishioners of

this affair which would like to see. -- of this village it would like to

see. And that appears to be the prevailing viewpoint in towns and

villages across the country. People want more police on the beat. But

how can the candidates deliver that when in resources are limited?

would introduce a new community- based special constable in the

community. Also, I would try to make sure that those who perpetrate

and social behaviour actually have some serious consequences for their

actions, because all too often, there are no consequences.

reason rural crime is increasing is because the police are increasingly

disconnected from the way the Rawle countryside works. We need police

visible in our towns and villages. Amid the people in our towns and

villages to feel able to ring the police to let them know what is

going on. If you saw more police officers on patrol, with young

people be better behaved? They would try to be. I think it would

have quite a big effect on young people's behaviour. The police and

crime Commission has to redress the balance of funding in urban or

rural areas. We need to reintroduce parish based special constables,

working with parish councils, the farming community and local

business communities. I have spoken out went for -- at length to

officers of all ranks and I know where money can be saved. I have no

fears about finding money to make sure that the policing of

Lincolnshire doesn't deteriorate any further, that the cards don't

affect us any more. Lincolnshire Police say they've increased the

number of PSCOs in rural areas and they're working with local councils

to put up CCTV cameras to deal with anti-social behaviour. Villages

like Holton-Le-Clay may not top the crime league table. But people here

want to feel reassured that the thin blue line extends beyond the

big towns and cities and into the Tim Iredale reporting. With me now

to discuss the challenges facing the new Police Crime and

Commissioners are Mervyn Bishop from Victim Support Humber, a group

which supports victims of crime and a former Deputy Chief Constable of

Lincolnshire Police, Alan Goldsmith. What other priorities for you? --

what are the priorities? One of the first priorities is to gain some

credibility for the role because there is so much cynicism about it.

That will require someone who is able to work with the police chiefs

in the two forces, who can ensure they have a real understanding of

what is required in the role. can they balance local demands for

era rural area like Lincolnshire against the bigger issues? If I

knew the answer for that, I might have gone -- applied for the drop

myself. It is a real challenge. Where would you like to see the

money prioritised, Mervyn? It is not just the money. It is the

actions that they need to take to ensure that there listening to the

voices of the victims. The other thing is to ensure that the

priority has got to be the needs of individual victims, and not only

the needs of them as a whole but when they really need them, when

the individual victim once thatched. Are victims of crime getting enough

attention at the moment? A I don't think they are at the moment. A lot

more could be done. I think they need to be listening to what

victims want. How high on the commissioner's agenda should

victims of crime be? It is key. Victims of what the police service

are there to protect. Is the question of what you can do with

what funds you have. One final question. In a sentence, if you

could get the commissioner to do one thing, what would it be? Per at

victims first. Work with the police force and continue what police

authorities have been doing so well for so many years.

Alan Goldsmith and Mervyn Bishop thank you. And the debate continues

tomorrow morning on your BBC local radio station. BBC Radio Humberside

and BBC Radio Lincolnshire will be talking to the candidates from nine

o'clock. A week tomorrow you can vote for who you want to run

policing where you live in East There are 193 candidate standing in

these elections. Each must take what they wanted to. Some mention

their military background, some talk about their role with the

police authority -- want to achieve a. The bigger they are, the more

they commonly appear. Crime, hundreds of references, 60

references to drugs, but only 30 references to the word alcohol. Is

that the right emphasis? And one phrase that is quite common is

anti-social behaviour. It is mentioned 117 times. That is the

everyday, low-level nuisance crime so many of us suffer from. You have

even set up CCTV cameras? Will go to have a look at some of that

footage now. Talk us through it. Yes, it is just uncontrollable. He

kept trying to get evicted. In the end, life became unbearable. The

big problem is, the police are not proactive any more. The crime would

happen and they can't do that anymore. So a police and crime

commissioner would galvanise them? In principle, it's a really good

idea that she would have somebody who is possibly independent because

the authorities to mark their own homework all the time. But I don't

think they have enough powers. They need to be able to audit cases, as

soon as the case has gone on for a deer, they look at the case

management, they look at what has gone wrong with it -- gone on for a

year. It is not just about police and budgets, it is trying to

understand what is going wrong and why it is ineffectual. Why are

numerous crimes committed against people and the people are not

caught? Not enough power? There is a certain amount of flexibility,

isn't there? There is legroom for more powers to revolve? I'm not

sure they need more power. Getting their job is to identify a policing

needs and to deal with their chief constables and voluntary

organisations and the victims' groups to meet these policing needs.

I don't think they need power, I think they need leadership.

totally disagree because the whole problem is, when you start getting

beneath the surface of what people are saying, you need to get to the

very basics of why that cases such a problem. They need to going and

at the case management, look at who is saying what and why, why are you

having multiple crimes in areas are over and over again? The woman or

man who would be successful and he would say, I'm going to do this,

and he would get elected. You can't have the same street targeted time

after time. Anybody who was any good as the PCC will have a map on

the wall and will know whether crimes are. -- where the crimes are.

They will say, why have we got another robbery on this estate to?

It is a different story from investigating a particular case.

The key point that some have raced, -- raised, people in Gancz,

affected by gangsters up -- disproportionately, do not live

under leafy areas. So, are you going to be listened to? This is

what I feel is the danger in the community. How are you going to

communicate with these people? you think somebody standing is

going to stand up and say, I am going to help you people? I think

if there is support within the Community, the computer is a

growing to want to help -- the communities are going to want to

help. There needs to be someone there that they can go to and speak

to on a regular basis to get some of these issues tackled. Do you

think they can get tackled with police and crime commissioners

could mark definitely. Definitely. Thank you very much.

Already you can see the size of some of the issues we are talking

about. If you want to hear more from the candidates themselves,