North East and Cumbria Police Elections 2012

Everyone has a view on how the streets should be policed. In just

over a week's Tyne, the way the police operate will change forever.

That is when we elect brand-new police and crime commissioners and

threw them we will get the chance to decide how the police deal with

everything. Under-age drinking, graffiti, right through to gun

crime. Tonight, we will explain the idea and look at how it might work,

and discuss the issues that affect you. This is Police Elections: Time

Millions of us across England and Wales are being given a choice.

Could we want to be the police and Prime Commissioner? Who do we want

to decide the strategy of how safe our streets are, to look after

victims? Why should we go to the polls on a November night under

these controversial conditions? The police and Crown Commissioners,

will they really make a difference? And what effect will be changes

have where you live? Tonight, we're looking at what these elections

mean for all of us. In the north- east, anti-social behaviour is

ruining lives, but can a police commissioner really make the

streets any safer? We were here from the four candidates competing

for top job. -- we will hear. the next half-hour, we're going to

be looking at what difference these police commissioners are going to

make. Later, we will be asking, are the candidates about their going in

the right direction? The guests tonight include Shami Chakrabarti

from Liberty, he thinks it is a disastrous idea. And Lord

Westermann, who helped to site the plan. -- design the plan. But what

will these commissioners be responsible for? For a start, they

will be able to hire and fire a chief constable and they will have

to deliver a five-year police and crime plan and come up with the

Budget. And they will have to regularly consult us on the way the

police the streets. And they might also be able to extend their

influence into how justice is administered through the courts as

well. These characters will be managing multi-million-pound

organisations. They will be developing a plan that covers

populations of millions within one police force area. It is a huge

task. Riz Lateef has been trying to find out what the job is about. The

police have to manage all types of crime, whether it is violent crime

in the City or anti-social behaviour in the countryside. The

Government's advertising campaign is hard hitting but the police and

crime commissioner will have to tap into people's everyday concerns.

The gangs that hang around in the park. Police do not have speed

tests. More bobbies on the beat. The crime Commission has job is to

look at Ablett -- is to listen to the public. The candidates are

route making their promises to win votes. Once in office, they may

discover how complex policing is, with conflicting demands. In

Middlesbrough, anti-social behaviour takes up the most police

time. Ron has suffered 10 years of abuse, including two petrol bomb

attacks on his home. He knows exactly what he wants from the new

police and crime commissioner. need to sort out the estate, with

more police on the beat. Without that, people will suffer more. We

need to target the people who are causing the trouble. Police on the

beat me reassure people that their communities are safe, but deploying

them everywhere, all the time, is impossible. Different crimes need

different policing. In this town, crime is relatively low. The

bobbies on the beat are not a priority, but recently the village

post office had its cash machine stolen. People around here still

want their fair share of policing. Two doors down, Karen's property

has been broken into twice. She is concerned that rural areas will be

overlooked by the police and crime permission. -- police and crime

commissioner. My concern is the commissioner might think that petty

crime as it is labelled does not matter, but it does matter to

people, especially in rural areas. If somebody takes your trailer or

your bike or they break into your shed, it affects those people. And

we pay our taxes, too, and we matter. It is up to the crime

Commissioner to listen and deliver can be seen -- deliver policing

relevant to you, and with limited resources. That is not the only

challenge. There is the tricky issue of personalities. The crime

commissioner will set the priorities for a chief constable.

How will they get on and can they agree on how to achieve what the

public wants to see? A reduction in crime. Keith is a former Chief

Constable and he knows how tough that job is. He thinks the job of

the new police and crime commissioner will be even harder.

It is enormously challenging because the individual will need to

understand the police service. They will need to have a lot of

political nous and they will need to know how to run an enormous

organisation. They won the two have the confidence of the public and

media. It is an impossible task for any individual to do that. Strong

words, Gordon Wasserman. It is a virtually impossible task? He is

talking about managing the police force, the chief constable will

manage the police force. The PCC is not managing, he is a political

leader who will look at decisions about priorities and identified

policing needs, but he is not going to be managing the force on a day-

to-day basis. There is a management team, a chief constable, and they

had been trained and paid for that. That is their job. At the beginning

of this programme, there was talking about -- there was talk

about changing police operations. This will not affect police

operations unless the Chief Constable wants them to change. It

is about priorities and focusing on people's needs, identifying those

needs and making sure the Chief Constable meets them. Power to the

people? It is power to another elected politician and I think we

have seen too much political interference in policing and law

and order. How can you argue against democracy? Democracy is not

just about having elections. The elected politicians are not the

only people with authority in a democracy. You also have to have

the rule of law. Politicians set the laws and they decide what

police powers are and what the crimes are but you need independent

professionals who serve the whole community, whether they photon they

do not. Young, old, minorities as well as popular majorities. I

wonder that this charismatic local politician, if that is who he is,

will -- and it will normally be a man, rather than a police authority.

A There are few female standing. worry that this politician will be

looking for the headlines and the popular courses and not serving the

needs of the community, no matter how vulnerable. By do not agree. I

think Members of Parliament serve their communities when they are

elected. I think the mayor serves the whole of the community of

London. I do not think we need to worry about PCCs neglecting their

communities. But the public want the lot to be administered evenly.

They do not want elected judges and they do not want police chiefs to

be elected. We polled the public last year about whether they wanted

the system or whether they would prefer the existing system, with a

chief constable and a police authority, and 65% of the people

polled said they would rather stick with the status quo. Only 15% said

they would trust elected politician over the chief constable under the

existing system. You are on the record as saying that it may well

be a low turnout and you accept that. You have also said that

people do not understand the concept of this role. And you say

that actually it is the election after this one that will be River

significant, so what are the next four years going to be, a pilot?

The next four years are a period where the PCCs begin to make a

difference in their communities. Members of those communities will

begin to realise that the PCC is someone who can make a difference

to their lives. Suddenly you will realise that whereas now no one has

heard of PCCs, and they regard something -- they regard crime as

something that is done to them rather than something they control.

But what is this transformation he will make? You cannot have both

ways if he does not interfere. believe in inspirational leadership

and a belief that a PCC can get a more effective police force by

inspiring and leading and supporting the chief constable.

This is not a conflict. Let us talk about the practical, at

Hillsborough. Jenny, you have lost two lovely children. I wonder it

you feel that if you had had a police and crime Commission

answerable to folks like yourself, which you have felt voiceless for

so long? The current system does not appear to have worked. Some of

the decisions that will local police authorities are not making

have not worked for us. Certain people should have been suspended

because of allegations about them. It did not happen. You think a PCC,

because he is answerable to people and get kicked out after four years,

that would have been a better situation? I would hope so. I would

hope there will be more transparency. I hope there would be

more accountability because they are elected. Peter is a former cop,

more transparency, more accountability? Is best -- is this

a possibility? I think it depends. Politicians are not unknown for

deciding not to open up and be transparent. It is not a given that

that would necessarily happen. You would have to have other levers to

resolve the type of situation that revolves around Hillsborough. There

are one or two facets of the new role, and police authorities to at

least meet in open public meetings, but not with a huge audience,

because they are not wildly interesting, but they are at least

public meetings. Most of the decisions taken between the chief

and the crime commissioner will be taken in a room with a cup of

coffee, so some of that decision making in public might go. There is

a big bonus on the individuals to take on this role and make sure

that the public transparently see the decisions that are being taken,

and they're not just being done in smoke-filled rooms. You could get

horrendous personality clashes. is a distinct possibility. Most

chiefs will want to make that relationship work so I think it

will be unlikely. I can hear what you're saying. I did not realise

that it would not be in an open forum. So that is quite worrying.

However, I'm coming back to the accountability, being elected by

the public. I agree that there should be accountability and that

what happened with Hillsborough was a great policing scandal, one of

the greatest of my lifetime. The police should have been accountable

to the lot. We have had generations of elected politicians, I do but it

was people power that force change. A but they were elected politicians,

generations of elected politicians. And others who did not deal with

this situation. Are you concerned that the police and crime

Commissioner may not share your liberal agenda? A not at all. This

is a constitutional point. It is not about a liberal agenda or any

other agenda. It is about needing checks and balances, and you need

independent people as well as political people. I would no more

have an elected judge, and if you have an elected judge, Barabbas

always walks free, and if you put the Lizard in the hand of the

politicians, they do not serve the whole population. I see is

completely different life. This is a job which relates to and concerns

the allegation of scarce resources. That is a role for politicians.

Policing needs are in ferment and resources are limited. Someone has

to make that decision. Is it a chief constable who makes the

decision or is it a freely elected PCC who has to defend his actions

at the polls and every day? The local media will ensure that this

is transparent. Thank you all very much for now. Later, we're going to

be looking at what the candidates themselves say they are going to do

if they are elected. What their priorities are. These commissioners

will have a huge effect on where Thanks, Nicky. Here in the North

East and Cumbria, crime is down. Yet many communities don't feel any

safer. Mark Denten reports from one estate on Teesside where anti-

social behaviour continues to ruin Crime statistics are numbers on a

map but go to any committee and will find the stories behind them.

Dyke House in Hartlepool. Crime is the key issue and nowhere seems

sacred. We had �5,500 worth of lead taken from the roof. Before the

window guards went on, we used to get everything from six inch bolts

to stones through the windows. One during a wedding nearly hit the

best man. Raiders came through the roof of Kris's shop. Now he watches

his CCTV on his phone nervously. Sometimes I can't sleep at night.

Always when I get up I'm still looking at the camera. It make me

sad and still always I'm thinking about the business now after that

happened. Despite those concerns, crime is actually falling around

here. The latest monthly crime totals are down 100 compared to

last year. But within a mile of here in just one month there were

still over 600 crimes, including over 300 incidents of anti-social

behaviour. And Harry has had enough. He is moving out. They come past

your house and throw eggs at your doors and windows. With them

cutting the budgets, they are cutting the police off their main

beat. But they are going to bring a commissioner into a job which will

get thousands a year, but they are cutting the front line. But while

Harry moves, residents like Margaret feel they have little

choice but to stay put, even though she has been burgled. I heard a

bang and when I went to the back I found all the glass broken and all

my windows and the back door to the lane wide open. We don't see so

many police round our area. They think it is better now. But if they

don't appear, it will all start again. As night falls, older people

like Margaret lock their doors. Teenagers appear on the streets.

But they are worried about crime, too. The other day there was just

the fighting in the street and I thought, that is something I

wouldn't want to happen every day. Do you feel unsafe round here?

So there's going to be a police and crime commissioner. What do you

want from that person? Just to sort out the teenage abuse, really. All

the druggies, the drug dealers, just to really clear them. And

whoever gets the new Police and Crime Commissioner jobs will have

to deal with those kind of concerns and, of course, work closely with

their local police force. We asked Cleveland Police to talk to us but

they didn't want to be interviewed. They did say this, though. There

have been over 2000 less victims of anti-social behaviour this year

compared to last year in Hartlepool, with a decrease in overall crime of

9%. Neighbourhood police officers and police community support

officers are delivering excellent results. Just one area of just one

town with people behind the numbers asking what the new commissioners

will do for them. Mark Denten reporting from Hartlepool. The

challenge for the new police commissioners will be to help

communities like that one. But to do it with fewer officers and less

money. Cleveland needs to have saved more than �26 million by 2015.

That compares to �19 million in North Yorkshire and �80 million in

the Northumbria force. And that will mean cuts in police numbers.

Cumbria will lose 7% of its officers by 2015, Durham 9% and a

17% drop in Northumbria. So far, crime is falling. Overall, it's

down in the region by more than 5% year on year. But can that

continue? With me here at Newcastle's Guildhall are the four

candidates who want the commissioners' job in our largest

force, Northumbria. Former policeman Phil Butler. Barrister

and ex-MP, Vera Baird. University academic Peter Andras. And

businessman Alastair Baxter. You're publicity talks about thieves and

vandals not on my patch. Cheap words but what could you do? They

are not cheap words, they are realistic because for many years I

was part of the team leading the fight against organised crime in

the north-east and this job is very much about leading the fight

against crime in the area. My job would be to work with the Chief

Constable to give the Chief Constable the tools to do the job

and support the police and scrutinise where appropriate and

ensure community safety. As a proven crime fighter, that is how I

could do this job. Is that not exactly perfect? Tough reputation?

The job isn't to fight crime, that is the Chief Constable, it is to

represent the public's views and prioritised for the police go to

set strategy. I think the real problem with anti-social behaviour

is undervalued, the police do with crime but they do not understand

well enough that a small thing like stamping on your plants are

throwing eggs at a window or driving bicycles passed repeatedly

or shouting or kicking balls over the wall amounts to a very

undermining course of conduct. They sent somebody out and they don't

give any adequate notice. They should say there will always be at

24 hour response. Give me one thing you would do to make some

difference to these communities? People who behave badly socially,

stepping on plants or drink too much, you should make them face the

problems that they have cost, explain to them, make them practise

a bit in cleaning up the mess that they made. Alastair Baxter, the

problem when talking about throwing resources at this, you will not

have those resources because money is declining? These are times a

decreasing resources, of course. And whichever one of us has this

role, we must be responsible for getting it right in terms of the

finance. Isn't the problem actually that crime is falling but public

perceptions and the fear of crime is the same. You could never square

that circle? Crime has come down to record levels and the police part

Bishop Sutton a brilliant job so the answer to this is to see what

is driving crime and money to tackle other issues, things like

alcohol abuse, 50% of crime is down to alcohol. One in six police

officers are assaulted because of our holidays. Vera Baird, with a

pub on every corner, do we have resources? What is very important

his neighbourhood policing. That puts police in the community and

puts support officers into the communities and the Tories have a

false polarities saying they need frontline police and scrapping

bureaucrats. The BCS has done a great role and explain to the

police what they need to do and ensuring there is intelligence for

the police so early intervention is possible and that hugely helps

communication and cuts the fear of crime. When you complain about the

resources being cut by the Government that has your party?

Resources are decreasing. And we need to steer them into a safe

service. We need to work more closely with the voluntary sector

and community organisations, we need to get them more involved and

we need to have the capacity to collaborate with police and

contribute to safe to do his. Alastair Baxter, you say you are a

member of the public but don't we need a serious former police

officer a politician to make these decisions? I think the other way,

this is a huge role to be taken. I do not think that anybody really

knows how it shall work out. But you certainly it's somebody with a

lot of experience at operating at a very senior level with strategic

thought and superb communications skills and all of those things that

do go along with a divisional manager with a large corporation.

Thank you. We can see who was standing in your area by going to

the website. And from tomorrow morning, follow all the debates on

all of your local radio stations. There are 193 candidates standing

in these elections and each has to produce a statement about what they

want to achieve. We have all of them here. Some mention their

military background and some talk about their former role with the

police authority and here are the actual words they use most often...

The bigger they are, the more commonly they appear. Crime gets

hundreds of mentions, 60 references to drugs and out of 55,000 words,

only 30 uses of the word alcohol when 40% of crime is fuelled by

this. One phrase that has come in days anti-social behaviour,

mentioned 117 times and that is the sort of everyday low level nuisance

crime that so many of us suffer from and Ashley, you have suffered

terribly from this? You set up this CCTV camera? We shall look at some

of this footage. The boys lobbing stones? On controllable, targeting

us repeatedly. We kept going to court to get them evicted. In the

end, it became unbearable. I think the big problem is that the police

do seem to not be proactive any more and they're just reactive, the

crime would happen and they cannot do that any more. When a crime

commissioner and a to buy yourself galvanise that? A in principle it

is a very good idea to have somebody who is possibly

independent because the authorities do their own homework all the time.

But they don't have enough powers, I think they need to have more

powers to it all that the cases and are soon as any case has gone on

for one year, they look at the management and what has gone wrong.

They start to get other people to look at what has gone wrong, not

just about police and budgets. It is trying to understand what is

going wrong and why things are ineffectual. Why are numerous

crimes committed against people because people are not caught? Why

don't the prisons sort them out? Not enough power? Get me through

that out. They should have more power? There is a certain amount of

flexibility? There is some legroom for more powers? I think their job

is to identify it policing needs and to deal with the Chief

Constable and voluntary organisations and the victims

groups to meet these policing needs. I don't think any power, they need

leadership. I totally disagree because the whole problem is when

you start to get beneath the surface, when all the other people

have been fobbing you off, you need to get to the basics of why that

case is such a problem and they need to go in and look at the case

management and he is doing what. Why is the evidence collection not

good enough? Why do we have multiple crimes in areas over and

over again? The same people. Democracy. The person who shall be

successful will say, I will do this for you, now. And they will get

elected. You cannot have the same mistake and the same street

targeted time after time after time. Anybody who is any good will have a

map on his wall and will no... Or her wall. And they wonder whether

crimes are. I know what happens and they will, the morning and say to

the Chief Constable, why haven't we got -- why have we got another

burglary or robbery on this estate? That is an interesting point.

different to investigating a particular case. The tough former

gang member who turned it around, people in gangs, the people

affected by gangs of disproportionately live, shall we

say, they don't live in leafy areas. Are you going to be listened to?

This is what I fear the danger is. Higher are we going to CT but these

people in these committees and of the commissioner will go down to

that, it cannot be some one-off thing and after six months, nobody

knows who to go to. A well somebody stand up and say, I will help you

or will they get votes from elsewhere? From populist messages?

A if there is support within the community, it will want to help, it

will want to help and if they don't know how to, there needs to be a

youth worker or someone who they can speak took on a regular basis

to get these issues tackled. they get tackled? Definitely. There

needs to be more communication and with the young people and the

police than the more we come together as a collective, the

better solved the problem will be. Thank you very much indeed. 30

minutes and you can already see the size of the issues. If you want to

know more and perhaps hear from some of the candidates themselves

on BBC local radio, we will be holding debates from 9:00am