North West Police Elections 2012

Everyone has but a few other streets should be policed. A

crackdown on anti-social behaviour, but more policemen on the beat...

Well, in just over one week, the way the police operate will change

forever. That is when we elect a brand new police and crime

Commissioner. Through that, we will get the chance to decide how the

police deal with everything - under-age drinking, graffiti, right

through to gun crime. Tonight, we will explain the idea, look at how

it might work and discuss the issues that affect you. This is

Millions of us across England and Wales are being given a choice. Who

do we want to be our police and crime Commissioner? Who do we want

to decide the strategy for how safe are streets are, to that after

victims? Why should we go to the polls next week? The new police and

crime commissioners really make a difference. And what effect will

the changes have where you live? We will be looking at what these

police elections mean for all of us. And in the North West, five forces,

18,000 officers and budgets totalling more than �1.6 billion.

We will be asking our panel of experts what impact the

commissioners will have on policing in the next 30 minutes, we are

going to be looking at what difference these new police

commissioners are going to make. Later, we will be asking, are the

crop of candidates out there going in the right direction? Guests

tonight include Ceri Chakrabarty, add the man who helps designed the

plan, but what will these police commissioners actually be? They

will be able to hire and fiery Chief Constable, deliver a five-

year policing crime plan and come up but the budget and regularly

consult us on the way they police the streets and they might also be

able to extend their influence into how justice is administered through

the courts as well. These characters will be managing multi-

million-pound organisations and developing a plan that covers

population's of millions all within one police force area. It is a huge

task. Our reporter has been trying to find out just what the job is

all about. The police have to manage all types

of crime, whether that is violent crime in the City for anti-social

behaviour in the countryside. The Government's advertising campaign

is hard hitting, but the new police and crime commissioner will have to

tap into people's everyday concerns. Of the gangs that hang around,

especially in the park. The police do not like speed tests. The use it

like a motorway. More police. crime Commissioner's job is to

listen to the public and in the run-up to elections, the candidates

are out making no promises to win votes. Once an officer, they may

discover just how complex policing is with conflicting demands. Here

in Middlesbrough, anti-social behaviour takes up most police time.

This man has suffered 10 years of abuse, including two petrol bomb

attacks on his home. He knows exactly what he wants from the new

police and Crown Commissioners. They need to sort the estates out.

More police on the streets. Without that, people will just offer more.

We need to target the people you causing the trouble within the

communities. Police on the beat me reassure people their communities

are safe, but deploying them everywhere all the time is

impossible. Different crimes needs different policing. Take North

Yorkshire, were crime is relatively low. Bobbies on the Peter not

exactly a priority, but recently, the village Post Office had its

cast machine stolen. People round here still want their fair share of

policing. Two doors down, this woman's property has been broken

into twice. She is concerned that rural areas will be overlooked by

in the police and crime Commissioner. My concern is that

the police commissioner might well think that petty crime, as it is

labelled, does not matter, but it does matter to people, especially

in rural areas. If somebody takes your trailer or your bike, or they

break into your sheds, then it does affect those people. We pay our

taxes, too, and we matter. So, it is up to the crime Commissioner to

listen and deliver policing relevant to you and do it with

limited resources. But that is that the only challenge. There is the

tricky issue of personalities. The new crime Commissioner will set the

priorities for a Chief Constable. How will they get on? And can they

agree on how to achieve what the public wants to see? That is a

reduction in crime. Keith Halliwell is a former Chief Constable and he

knows how tough that job is. He thinks the job of the new police

and crime Commissioner will be even harder. For it is enormously

challenging. The individual will need to understand the police

service. They will need to have a lot of political knowledge. They

will need to know how to run an enormous organisation and they will

need to have the confidence of the public and the media. It is

virtually an impossible task. Strong words there. A virtually

impossible. -- a virtually impossible task for any individual.

That is not right. He is talking about managing the police force.

But the Chief Constable will manage the police force. His role will be

political leadership. He will look at decisions about priorities,

identify policing needs, but he will not be managing the force on a

day-to-day basis. There is a management team, a Chief Constable,

assistance. They are paid and trained for that. There was a lot

on about changing police operations at the beginning of this programme.

This will not affect police operations, except if the Chief

Constable wants them to change. It is about priorities. It is about

focusing on people's needs, identifying those needs and making

sure that it Chief Constable meets them.

It is simply power to another elected politician. We have seen

too much political interference in policing and law and order in

recent years. Democracy is not just about having elections. An elected

politician is not the only person with authority in a democracy. You

must have the rule of law. Of course, politicians set the laws

and decide what the police powers are, but you then need independent

professionals to serve the whole community, whether they voter not.

For young, old, minorities, as well as popular majorities. I am worried

that this charismatic local politician will... I am worried

that this politician is going to be looking at at the headlines and the

popular causes, and not serving the tough needs of the entire community,

no matter how vulnerable they are. I do not agree. I think Members of

Parliament serve the whole of their communities when they are elected.

The mayor serve the whole of the community of London. We do not need

to worry about SVRs these commissioners neglecting bits of

their communities. But the public want the law to be administered

with an even hand. If they do not want the judges or the police

chiefs to be elected. If we polled the public last year about whether

they wanted this new system or whether they preferred the existing

system with the Chief Constable and a proper police authority. 65% of

the people we polled said they would rather stick with the status

quo. Only 15% thought that they would trust elected politician over

the Chief Constable under the existing system.

You're on the record as saying there may well be a very low

turnout and you accept that. You also said that people do not yet

understand the concept of this role in one individual's hands. It is

the elections after this one that will be really significant,

according to you. What will the next four years be?

It will be a period when of the commissioners begin to make a

difference in their communities and members of those communities begin

to realise that this Commissioner is someone who can make a

difference to their lives. Suddenly, you will find that, whereas now,

people have never heard of the PCC's, they regards crime as

something that is done to them, not something they can control. If he

will not a fear in operational policing, what will this

transformation be? You cannot have it both ways. I believe in

inspirational leadership. I believe the commissioners can get a more

effective police force by inspiring and leading and supporting the

Chief Constable. I do not see this as a conflict between their...

Let's talk about the practical and one of the biggest police cover-ups

in criminal history - Hillsborough. Jenny, you lost your two lovely

girls at Hillsborough. You and your husband are campaigners. If you had

a police and crime Commissioner there was which you have felt

voiceless for quite so long? The current system has not worked

for us. Some of the decisions that the local police authorities are

not making have not worked for us, like certain people should have

been suspended because of allegations about them. This just

did not happen. Do you think a police and crime Commission,

because he is answerable to people, that that would have been a better

situation for you? I would hope so. I would hope there

would be more transparency, that there would be more accountability

from them because they are elected. As a former top policeman, more

transparency? More accountability? Is this a real possibility?

Is it depends. Politicians are not unknown for deciding not to open up

and be transparent just before an election. You would have to have

other leaders to resolve the situation that revolves around

Hillsborough. There are one or two facets of the new law. Police

authorities, for all their floors, to at least meet an open public

meetings. Not with the huge audience present, because they're

not widely interested. But it is at least the public meeting. Most of

the decisions taken between a chief and the commissioner will be taken

in a room with a cup of coffee on their own. Some of that decision

making in public might go. There is a really big onus on the

individuals that take on this role to make sure that the public

transparently see if the decisions that are being taken.

You could get some horrendous personality clashes as well.

That is a distinct possibility. But most chiefs will want to make that

relationship work. That will be unlikely to happen.

I can hear what you're saying. I did not realise that it's would not

be an open forum. That is quite worrying. That is not good for

transparency, is it? But I come back to the accountability and

being elected by the public. I agree that there should be

accountability and what happened with will spray is one of the

greatest policing scandals of my lifetime, but the police should

have been accountable to the law. We have had generations of elected

politicians... But this was people power that

forced to insure. But there were generations of

elected politicians... They did not deal with the situation.

Are you concerned that the police and crime Commission or may not

share your liberal agenda? Not at all. This is a

constitutional point I am making. It is not about agendas. He needs

checks and balances in a democracy. You need independent people as well

as political people. I was no more have an elected judge... If you

have an elected judge, Barabbas always walks free. His you put

policing in their hands of elected politicians, they do not serve the

whole community, just the most popular bets.

I see it completely different teas. This is a job which relates, which

concerns the allocation of scarce resources. Policing these are

finite. Somebody has to make that decision. As it is Chief Constable?

Or is it a free be elected PCC, who has to defend his actions at the

polls and every day? Dirt media will ensure that this is

transparent. The thank you. Later, we're going to be looking at

what the candidates themselves have to say. What their priorities are.

These commissioners are going to have a future effect on where you

live. -- a big effect. Hello. Welcome to the Museum of Policing

here in Cheshire. Behind these doors, 152 years of this county's

constabulary. But we're not here to talk about history. We are here to

talk about the future and how, with your help, the government is hoping

to transport our five police forces into the 21st century. Let's do a

There is evidence everywhere at how local policing has changed over the

years. Peter it is beautifully demonstrating how the police

force's fashion sense has changed over the years as well! Next week,

we get to play a major role in policing. Here in the North West,

we've got elections for five commissioners - in Cheshire,

Greater Manchester, Merseyside, Lancashire and Cumbria. That's five

forces with more than 18,000 officers and budgets ranging from

�127 million in Cumbria to more than half a billion in Manchester!

And the person you elect will try to ensure the money's spent wisely

and in line with your wishes. Here's Arif Ansari.

For 16 years, Z Cars patrolled the region's streets and the nation's

TV screens. Well, we hired our own police car to go on election patrol

and listen to voters. Cheshire reflected much of the region -

concern about fewer police officers on the beat. Quite a lot of anti-

social behaviour within this area. However, the police are there when

you need them. The caller the Thin Blue Line - getting thinner all the

time. But it's not always so straightforward. In Lancashire, we

found one community might have very different priorities to another.

You hear about these kids taken away. Teenagers, after hours. They

go around the areas. You see them smoking drugs and stuff.

different is it 20 miles away? level of policing is adequate.

don't think we have any particular problems here. And it's Cumbria

which might face the starkest choice between the towns and the

countryside. Machinery, thieving, it is a big thing. We do not have

the local policeman. When they come, they don't know where they are.

Very different in our largest force - Greater Manchester. Despite the

headlines, gun crime has been substantially reduced. But people

in Salford are still worried. seems to be getting the thing now.

I don't know how they. It, I would like them to. I need my liberty to

be secured. I do not think the police have been hard enough.

Merseyside Police has already cut its dedicated anti-social behaviour

unit. A move voters in South Liverpool may want reversed.

have had bus stops vandalised, the information. Has been vandalised.

The police does not have enough to cover. Not their fault, it is the

cutbacks. Different areas, different priorities. But pressure

over results and resources will face all the new Police

Commissioners. Well, joining me now to discuss the

election are former Detective Superintendent Mick Gradwell, who

led the Lancashire Police inquiry into the Morecambe Bay cockling

tragedy, Penny Clough, whose daughter Jane was tragically killed

by her former partner while on bail, and Dr Robert Ford from Manchester

If this job had been advertised, what would you have liked to see on

the job description? It is a chief executive post, someone who will

have to manage a multi-million- pound budget and contracts, and has

to deal with every single community. It is a chief executive poster with

quite a significant number of staff. As we saw in that report, some of

these areas are very rural. Is it very difficult for one person to

cover a very diverse area? Impossible! Many candidates know

just one area. They are so many communities, that it is not

possible for one person to cover all these areas. Penny, in your own

experience, what do you think of victims of crime will want to see?

I think victims will want a commissioner who will answer their

questions. If they cannot, tell them who can. Get a low-down on

what it is like to be a victim and get advice of victims on how things

and the police can be improved to. I know you did not have any

complaints with the police, but you did with the justice system as a

whole. Do you think there needs to be an overhaul? I would not have

said and the police force, because we found that the police did

everything they said they did, and we have no specific complaint

against the police. Why is that politicians who are doing this? Is

should be the person best for the role. Rob, this is a chance for

somebody at the top to really do find this role. And really listen

to victims. I think it is a challenging situation for the

candidates. There is an opportunity here because the public do not

understand what this role as for. On the other hand, many of the mud

politicians, and right now, they are held in lower public esteem. If

there are clashes between commissioners and police, the

public would trust the police more than the elected commissioners.

have had a lot of talk about how the public do not know much about

these elections and turnout could be low. There is one estimate that

suggests turnout could be below 20%. There are a couple of problems - it

is very hard for someone to claim legitimacy when four out of five

voters did not even turn up to vote. With voters knowing so little, it

is likely that the votes the cumin or be dominated by a people every

partisan leaning. We air of the police force, and things have to

change and develop a. This is the way the Government thinks is the

best way for the police force to develop. They are politicising the

police force. They are bringing an X Factor culture into policing.

they don't do the right thing, they were not get elected again, and

made tried harder to listen to victims. I don't think they will.

It is not as easy to pick one cried for a whole force area. Different

areas have different problems. It will have little or no impact on

members of the public, will not reduce crime, and disrupt community

tension. If there is one thing a commissioner could do to help

victims of crime, what would it be? Listened to victims's questions

unanswered them. That's it from us here in the North

West. A reminder that your local radio stations will have debates

with the candidates in your area tomorrow at 9am. For now, back to

There are 193 candidates standing in these elections, and each has to

produce a statement about what they want to achieve. I have all of them

here. Some mention their military background, some of their phone

were role with the police authority. Here are the words they use most

60 references to drugs, but only 30 uses of the word alcohol. He is

that the)? One phrase that is quite common is anti-social behaviour.

Now, of course, is the every day low real level nuisance crimes so

many of us suffer from. You suffered terribly from it. You even

got to the stage where you set up a CCTV camera in your house. Talk us

through it. They are uncontrollable. We kept going to court. In the end,

life became unbearable. The big problem is the police seemed to

be... They are not proactive. They are just reactive. A crime would

happen, and they cannot do that any more. But unelected commissioners

would galvanise them. In principle, it is a great idea. The authorities

to mark their own homework will the time. But I do not think they have

enough powers. They need more powers to alter cases. As soon as

the case has gone on for a year, Villa could case management. They

start to get other people to look at what is going on. This is not

about police and budgets. It is try to understand what has gone wrong.

Why I numerous crimes committed against people and these people are

not Co-ord? Not enough power. More power? A bit of legroom for more

powers to revolve? I think their job is to identify a policing needs

and to deal with their chief constables and the voluntary

organisations, to meet these needs. They do not need power. They need

leadership. I totally disagree. When you start getting beneath the

surface, you need to get to the very basics of why that case is

such a problem. They need to going and look at the case management,

who is doing what, why the evidence collection is not good enough.

Where you having multiple crimes in areas, over and over again? What

the guy or a woman would go on and say, I would do this for you and

would get selected. You cannot have the same street targeted time after

time. Anyone who is any good will have a map on his wall all her wall,

and know where the crimes are. I know what happens. They will say,

why have we got another burglary or robbery on this estate? Quite a

different story from investigating a case. You are a former gang

member, and turned it round. People in gangs, people affected by gangs

are disproportionately, live... Do not live in the leafy areas of

these elections. Will you be listened to? There you go. How were

you communicate with these people? They cannot just be a one-off thing.

Do you think somebody standing was stand up and say, I will help you

people? What it comes down to is if there is support within the

communities, the communities will want to help and change their

communities. But if they do not know how to do that, then he's to

be someone there who they can speak to on a regular basis. Do you think

they could get tackled? definitely. There needs to be more

communication. The more we come together, the more we will solve

the problem. Already, you can see the size of some of the issues we