South East Police Elections 2012

Everyone has a view on how the streets it should be policed.

Cracking down on anti-social behaviour. More bobbies on the beat.

Soon, at the way that the police operate will change for ever. That

is when we are let brand-new police and Crown Commissioners. Through

them, we will get the chance to decide how that the police deal

with everything. Tonight, we are going to explain the idea, look at

how it might work and discuss the issues that affect you. This is

Millions of us across England and Wales are being given a choice, who

do we want to be a police and crime Commissioner? Who do we want to

decide the strategy for say streets, to look after victims? Why should

be cut to the polls next week? The new police and Crown Commissioners

really make a difference. And what effect will the changes have agreed

you love? Tonight, we will be looking at what these elections

means for all of us. Here in the South East, or we will

be looking at the crimes that you are most concerned about. We will

be asking what issues you would like them to address and I will be

finding out what their powers and So, in the next have a work we are

going to be looking at what difference these new police

commissioners are going to make. Later in the programme, we will be

asking Aga candidates going in the right direction? I guess there

might include people who think it is a terrible idea and the man who

helped to design the plan. What all these police commissioner has been

responsible for? They will be able to hire and fire at Chief Constable.

They will have to deliver a five- year policing plan and come up with

a budget. And they will have to regularly consult the public on how

the police the streets. They may also be able to extend their

influence to how justice is administered through the courts.

These characters will be the managing multi-million-pound

organisations and developing a plan that includes a huge populations.

The police have to manage all types of crime, whether that is violent

crime or anti-social behaviour in the countryside. The Government's

advertising campaign is hard hitting, but the new police and

crime commissioner will have to tap into people's everyday concerns.

The gangs that hang around, especially in the park. The need to

do more speed tests. The crime Commissioner's job is to listen to

the public and in the run-up to the elections the candidates are out

making their policies to win votes. But once in office, they may

discover just how complex policing errors, with conflicting demands.

Here in Middlesbrough, anti-social behaviour takes up most police

crime falls -- time. This man has suffered ten years of abuse,

including two petrol bomb attacks on his home. He knows exactly what

he wants from the new police and Crown Commissioners. More police on

the beat, because without that people are going to suffer more.

The need to target the people causing trouble within communities.

Police on the beat may have reassure people their communities

are safe, but deploying them everywhere, all the time, is

impossible. Different crimes need to different policing. Take this

small area in North Yorkshire for a crime is relatively low. Bobbies on

the beat are not a priority. But recently the village post office

had its cash machines stolen so people round here still want their

feared -- their fair share of belief in. This property has been

broken into twice. The owner is concerned that rural areas there

will be overlooked by the new police and Crown Commissioners.

concern is that they might think that petty crime, as it is labelled,

up does not matter, but it does matter to people, especially in

rural areas. If someone takes your trailer or you bright -- bike or

the break and you shed its, then it does affect those people and we pay

our taxes as well and the matter. So it is up to the crime

Commissioner to listen and deliver policing relevant to you, and to do

it with limited resources. But that is not the only challenge. There is

the tricky issue of personalities. They will set the priorities for a

chief constable. How will they get on and can they agree on how to

achieve what the public wants to see? A reduction in crime. Keith

Halliwell is a former chief constable and a nose out of that

job is. But he thinks that the job of the new police and Crown

commissioner will be even harder. It is enormously challenging

because the individual will need to understand the police service. They

will have to have a lot of political nous and know how to run

an enormous organisations. It is a virtually impossible tax -- task

for any individual. If strong words there.

Virtually impossible task for any what one individual. I do not think

that is right. He is talking about managing the chief force. The chief

constable will manage the due for - - the police force. We're talking

about a political leader talking about priorities and police needs.

But he is not going to be managing the force on a day-to-day basis.

There are other people trained for that and paid for that. This is not

about changing police operations. Except if the Chief Constable wants

them to change. It is about priorities. It is about focusing on

people's needs, identifying those needs and making sure that the

Chief Constable meets them. To his power to the people. It is not, it

has power to another elected politician and I think we have seen

too much interference in policing recently. Democracy is not just

about having elections. Elected politicians are not the only people

with authority in a democracy. You also have to have looked role of

loss. Of course pop -- of course politicians set a loss, but then

you need independent professionals who served the whole community,

whether they vote are not, a young and old, minorities and majorities.

I am worried that is a charismatic local politician, it rather than a

police authority, I am worried that this politician is going to be

looking for the headlines and the popular causes and not serving a

bit tough needs of the entire community, no matter how vulnerable

they are. I just do not agree. At the Members of Parliament serve

their whole communities when they are elected. I think Meyer's serve

the whole committee of London's. I do not think we need to worry about

these people neglecting parts of the communities. But the public

what the law to be administered with an even hand. People to the

public last year about whether they wanted this new system or whether

they preferred the existing system with chief constable and a broader

police authority and 65 % of the people we polled said they would

rather stick with the status quo. Only 15 % thought that they would

trust the elected politician. were on the record as saying it may

well be a poor turnout. But you have also said that people do not

yet understand the concept of his role in one individual's hands. You

were saying that it is the elections after this one that are

going to be significant. What are the next four years going to be?

Account of pilot? No, the next four years are going to be a period when

they would begin to make a difference in their communities and

members of the community begin to realise that this is someone that

can make a difference to their lives. Suddenly, you will find,

whereas now people have never heard of PCC's, at a record fine as

something done to them,... Effort is not going to interfere in

operational policing, of what is this great transformation he is

going to make in people's lives? believe in inspirational leadership.

I believe he can get a more effective police force by inspiring

and reading and supporting the chief constable. I do not see this

as a conflict... Let us talk about the practicals and the biggest

police cover up in police history, the Hillsborough disaster. I just

wonder if you had had a police and Crown Commissioner there who was

answerable to good people like yourself, would you have felt a

voiceless for so long? The current system does not seem to have worked

for us. Some of the decisions that the local police authorities are

not making have not worked for us. Certain people should have been

suspended because of allegations about them and it did not happen.

So you think that a police and crime commissioner, he or she...

That would have been a better situation for you? I would have

coped so, I would have called for more transparency. That there would

have been more accountability because they were elected. You are

former top policemen. More transparency and accountability? Is

there is a possibility? I think it depends. Politicians are not

unknown for deciding to open up and be transparent be fought an

election so why do not think it is bad given that would happen. There

are one or two facets of the new role, police authorities for all

their flaws do at least open up meetings, not with a huge audience

because they are not wildly interesting for memory it -- for

many, but they are at least a public meeting. The majority of

decisions taken between achieve and a crime and police commissioner are

going to be taking over a cup of coffee in a room. Some of that

public decision-making might go and there is a real onus on the

individuals who take on this role for to make sure that the public

transparently seek the decisions taken and are not just done in

smoke-filled rooms. You could get horrendous personality clashes.

that is a distinct possibility. Most chiefs will want to make that

a relationship work. I can hear what you're saying. I did not

realise that it would not be in an open forum that decisions would be

made, so that is quite worrying. That is not good for transparency.

However, I go back to the accountability of being elected by

the public. I agree that there should be accountability and what

happened with Hills brat is one of the greatest policing scandals of

my lifetime. The police there should have been accountable to the

law and I am not sure that... ultimately it was people power that

forced to change here. Isn't this an expression... But generations of

elected politicians... Had I just worry... Are you concerned that a

police and Crown Commissioner it might just not sure you're a

liberal agenda? Not at all. This is a constitutional point that I am

making. It is not about an agenda. It is about saying that you need

checks and balances in a democracy, you need independent people as well

as political people. I would no more have an elected judge. I think

if you could policing in hands of elected politicians they do not

necessarily serve the whole community just the most popular

bits. I see it completely differently. This is a job that

relates to, at that concerns, the allocations of scarce resources. We

have always known that that is a job for politicians. Police

resources are limited. Someone has to make that decision. Is it a

freely elected police and crime commissioner who has to defend his

actions at the polls? Every day as well, the local media will ensure

that this is transparent. Thank you very much.

Later we are going to be looking at what the candidates themselves say

they are going to do if they are elected. These commissioners are

going to have a huge effect on Hello, welcome to the Chatham

Historic Dockyard. In less than 10 days' time, voters in Sussex and

Surrey will elect their new PCC's it in the biggest shake-up to

policing since 1879. But what do you know about the elections? What

issues would you like them to focus on? What are their powers and

responsibilities? We will be discussing all of those with air --

with an invited panel. But first, Our correspondent Colin Campbell

has been seeing how the new PCCs will affect our lives.

It is a US concept on the way to the South East. Police crime

commissioners arrive here in a matter of days. The job of the PCCs

will be to listen to the public and respond to their needs. But what

issues will they have to address here in the South East? What

difference will they make? Rural crime in the South East increased

by 20 % last year. Thieves have struck five times at John Chapman's

Farm near Ashford in Kent since Christmas. Breaking fences, driving

through the crops. A what do you hope the PCC can do for you?

presence in the area. Commissioners will control police budgets and set

priorities. A bank robber turned government adviser believes the

role will help drive down crime. Listen to people in the street.

People know what money needs to be sent on. That will show what needs

to be -- what will be most affected, rather than a police officer saying,

what more cars on the street. The PCC might say you may want more

cars, but the public want more visibility. Total recorded crime is

down in Kent and Sussex. Across the two counties, there were 145,000

reported incidence of anti-social behaviour in the last year. We get

street drinkers from early in the morning to late at night. Is there

a drugs problem here? There is in various areas. We have had two all

three major hits. On this estate in Brighton, residents want police to

contact -- target those who make other people's lives hell. I want

more put into neighbourhood policing because that works here.

With the officers we have, work very well, I would take that away

from them, but then me to be more of them. Lucas pike is an X

offender who lives on the Whitehall estate. He was assigned a mentor.

hope the commissioners will take time to look at the project's -- a

look at prevention as well as rehabilitation. Relations between a

young people and the police, improving that is Lucas's hope.

icy police, I am suspicious. -- When I see police. It is clear that

across the South East, there are many hopes and expectations as to

what BPCCs will achieve. The candidates are promising to hit

the ground running when they take office. Top of their agenda will be

tackling anti-social behaviour. Addressing issues like bobbies on

the beat, robbery, burglary and domestic violence. So, how

successful is the role likely to be? Supporters believe that it will

make policing more accountable and democratic. But one high-profile

critic has urged voters to boycott the election. The Electoral Reform

Society has predicted that the turnout could be lower than 18.5 %,

fewer than one in five voters. It compares with the 65 % in the

general election. Joining me is Professor Marion Fitzgerald of, a

former police officer as well who withdrew as a candidate for a

Sussex -- who withdrew as a candidate and the father of a

victim of crime. If at the start with you, you set up a charitable

foundation in the aftermath of your son Robert's death. As a victim of

crime, as someone who has been touched by crime, what you want

these PCCs to achieve? campaigned against knife crime and

anti-social behaviour. What we want the commissioner to do is stare up

the effort to make the streets safer. -- is step up the effort.

you think they can do that? I don't know. We have our wishes and I hope

that the incoming commissioner will listen to what the people on the

street say. Obviously, they have local knowledge and I hope they do

what the public want. Nigel, you are a former police officer. How

popular is this within the force? Not very. It is a very cynical

profession anyway. Police officers have had quite a few years of

centralised instruction, where everything they have done has been

centrally controlled and monitored. I think a lot of them see this as

an extension of that centralisation. It is just wearing a different hat.

You did consider running as a candidate? I did. Do you think they

could be effective? When the idea was first mooted in the

Conservative manifesto of the last general election, I thought it was

a good idea. As time went on, I became less enthused. That is an

issue, Marion Fitzgerald, because these were trumpeted as making the

police more accountable, more democratic. Do you think this

process is a democratic process? I think it is being done in the

name of democracy but it is not in the tradition of British democracy

to give all power to one individual with no checks and balances on the

power. This one individual will have the power to hire and fire

chief constables. The worry is, they will be elected on a very

small turnout. Across the whole of the force area, different people

will be asking for very different things. Resources are scarce, and

shrinking. If you decide that these resources have to be skewed towards

this area to keep up your electoral base, resources will have to come

from somewhere else. The danger is that they will be trying to meet

the expectation of a higher police presence, or maintaining a police

presence, dealing with low-level crime and anti-social behaviour,

and if all that happens at the expense of some of the more serious

police work, to meet that need, which is what the PCC will say if

we are -- if he is going to be elected, then that will be a

dangerous use of police resources. Thank you all for joining us. If

you would like more information about the candidate for police

commissioner in your candidate, you can go to the BBC's local website.

They also be more information on the programme -- on BBC South-East

today. There are 193 candidates standing

and each has to issue a statement about what they want to achieve. I

have got all of them here. Some of them mentioned the military

background, some of them talk about their former role with the police

authority. Here are the words they use most often, the work -- the

bigger they are, the more often bigger they are, the more often

they appear. Only 30 uses of the word alcohol. When 40 % of crime is

fuelled by a cough. Is that the right emphasis? One phrase that is

quite common is anti-social quite common is anti-social

quite common is anti-social behaviour. That is the normal

everyday nuisance behaviour. You suffered from that and you set up a

CCTV camera? We will look at that footage now. Talk us through it.

Targeting us repeatedly. We kept going to court. In the end, life

became unbearable. I think that the big problem is that the police are

not proactive any more. There are just reactive. So it a crime would

happen, and they can't do that anymore. Do you think a police and

crime commissioner would galvanise them? I think in principle it is a

really good idea to have someone independent because the authorities

do not react all the time. But I don't think they have enough power

was. I think they need power to audit cases. Own -- as soon as a

case has gone on for more than a year, they look at what has gone

wrong with it. They start to look at what has gone wrong. It is not

just about police and budgets, it is about understanding why things

are ineffectual. Why are numerous crimes committed against people and

the people are not caught? So are not enough power? Lord Wasserman,

this is a curve ball for you. Not enough power, but there is enough

flexibility for plough up -- for powers to evolve? I think their job

is to identify policing needs and to deal with their police

constables and voluntary organisations and victims are to

meet these policing needs. I don't think they need power, I think they

need leadership. I totally disagree. The whole problem is, when you

start looking beneath the surface of what want of chief constable is

saying, and what other people are saying to fob you off, you have to

be able to look at the case management, who is doing what, why

is the evidence collection not good enough, why you were having

multiple crimes of in areas over and over again? Same people being

targeted. But this. -- but this is democracy. A man or woman would say

this is what I can do, and they would get elected. You can't get

the same street targeted time after time, anyone who is any good will

have a map on their wall saying where the crimes are. I have seen

this and I know what is happening. He will come in and say to the

Chief Constable and say, why have we got another burglary or robbery

on this estate? But what of nobody votes? That is a different story

from investigating a case. A former gang member -- gang member turned

it around and is helping people. People affected by gangs are

disproportionately do not live in the leafy areas who first in these

elections. So are you going to be listened to? There you go, the

danger is that how you are going -- the danger is how you are going to

can make -- communicate with these people? No one will know who to go

to. Will people stand up and say I'm going to help you people, or

will they get areas from more obviously populist areas? I think

it also to support within communities. They will want to help

and if they don't know how to help or who to go to, then these to be

somebody there who they can go to prove they can speak to on a

regular basis to get these issue tackled. Do you think they could

get tackled with the PCCs? Definitely. If they work with the

young people and the communities, the more we come together as a

collective, we will solve the problem. Thank you very much indeed

that is just half-an-hour. You can see the size of the issues we are

talking about. If you want to hear more from the candidates themselves,