South West Police Elections 2012

Everyone's got a view on how the streets should be policed,

crackdown on anti-social behaviour, more bobbies on the beat.

Well, in just over a week as time, the way the police operate will

change forever. That's when we elect brand new

police and crime commissioners, through them we will get a chance

to decide how the police deal with everything, from under-age drinking,

graffiti, right through to gun crime. Tonight we're going to

explain the idea, look at how it might work, and discuss the issues

that affect you. This is Police Elections Time To Choose.

Millions of us, across England and Wales, are being given a choice.

Who do we want to be our police and crime commissioner? Who do we want

to decide the strategy for how safe our streets are, to look after

victims. Why should we go to the polls next week on a cold November

night in these controversial elections? Well, the new police and

crime commissioners really make a difference. And, what effect will

the changes have where you live? Tonight, we will be looking at what

these police elections mean for all of us.

In the south west we will be on the frontline with the biggest police

force, they tackle anti-social behaviour in urban areas, and the

challenge of policing in the countryed side. We will debate the

new priorities of the Police Commissioner, with Victim Support

and neighbourhood watch and a former senior police officer.

So, in the next half hour, we are going to be looking at what

difference these new police commissioners are going to make.

And later in the programme, we willing asking, are the crop of

candidates out there going in the right direction. Guests tonight

include Shami Charabati, who thinks it is a disastrous move. And the

man who designed the plan. What will they be responsible for? For a

start they can hire and fire, and a five year-year policing plan, and a

budget, and regularly consult us on the streets. And may influence the

courts. These characters will be managing

multimillion pound organisations. And developing a plan that covers a

population of millions, all within one police force area. We have been

trying to find out just what the job is all about.

The police have to manage all types of crime, whether that's violent

crime in the city, or anti-social behaviour in the countryside. The

Government's advertising campaign is hard-hitting, butt police and

crime commissioner will have to tap into people's every day concerns.

The gangs that hang around, especially in the park. The police

doing speed tests, the trench of road I live they use it like a

motorway. More police, more wardens on the beach. The crime

commissioner's job is to listen to the public, and in the run up to

the elections, the candidates are out making their promises to win

votes. Once in office, they may discover just how complex policing

is with conflicting demands. Here in Middlesborough, anti-social

behaviour takes up most police time. Ron has suffered ten years of abuse,

including two petrol bomb attack on his home. He knows exactly what he

wants from the new police and crime commissioner.They Need to sort

these estate out, more police on the beat, without that people will

suffer more. We need to target the people who are causing the trouble

within the communities. Police on the beat may reassure

people their communities are safe. But deploying them everywhere, all

the time, is impossible. Different crimes need different policing.

Take North Yorkshire, where crime is relatively low. Bobbies on the

beat aren't exactly a priority. But recently, the village Post Office

had its cash machine stolen. So people round here still want their

fair share of policing. Two doors down from the Post Office, Karen's

property has been broken into twice. She's concerned that rural areas

will be overlooked by the new police and crime commissioner.

concern is the new Police Commissioner will think that petty

crime doesn't matter. But it does, especially in the rural areas. If

someone takes your trailer or bike, or they break into your sheds, it

kos affect those people. We pay our taxes too, and we matter. It is up

to the crime commissioner to listen, and deliver policing relevant to

you, and do it with limited resources. But that's not the only

challenge. There is the tricky issue of personalities. The new

crime commissioner will set the priorities for a Chief Constable.

How will they get on, and can they agree on how to achieve what the

public wants to see? A reduction in crime.

Keith Halliwell is a former Chief Constable, I knows how tough that

job is. But he thinks the new job of the Police and Crime

Commissioner will be even harder. It is enormously challenges, the

individual will need to understand the Police Service, and need to

have a lot of political nouse. And need to know how to run an enormous

organisation, and have the confidence of the public and media.

It is a virtually impossible task for any individual to do that.

Strong words there from Keith Halliwell a virtually impossible

task for any one individual? don't think that is right. He's

talking about managing the police force. The Chief Constable will

manage the police force. The PCC is not managing, he's a leader, he's a

political leader. He will look at decisions about priorities, he will

try to identify policing needs. But he's not going to be managing the

force on a day-to-day basis. There is a management team, there is a

Chief Constable, there are assistants, they have been trained

for, that they are paid for that. That is their job. He's not going,

there is, at the beginning of this programme there was a lot about ING

chaing police operation. This is not going to affect police

operation, except if the Chief Constable wants them to change.

It's about priorities, it is about focusing on people's needs,

identifying those needs, and making sure the Chief Constable meets them.

It is power to the people? It is not, it is power to another elected

politician. I think we have seen too much political interference in

policing, and in law and order in recent years already. This is more

democracy, how can you argue against that? Democracy isn't just

about having elections, and elected politicians aren't the only people

with authority in a democracy S you also have to have the rule of law.

Of course politicians set the laws, they decide what the police powers

are, what the crimes are. Then you need independent professionals, who

serve the whole community, whether they vote or they don't, young, old,

minorities as well as popular majorities. I'm worried that this

charismatic local politician, if that's who he is, will, it will

normally be a "he", rather than a police authority. There are

relatively few females standing? I'm worried this politician will

look for the headlines and the popular causes and not serving the

tough needs of the entire community. No matter how vulnerable they are.

I don't agree, I think Members of Parliament serve the whole of their

communities, when they are elected. I think the mayor serves the whole

of the community of London. I don't think we need to worry about PCCs

neglecting bits of their communities. The public want the

law to be administered with an even hand, they don't want the judges to

be elected or the police chiefs. Police chiefs won't be elected.

polled the public last year about whether they wanted the new system

or preferred the existing system, with the Chief Constable and a

broader Police Authority, and 65%, this is a YouGov poll, of the

people we polled, said they would rather stick with the status quo.

Only 15% thought they would trust the elected politician over the

Chief Constable under the existing system. You are actually on the

record as saying it may well be a very low turn out. You accept that,

from next week. You have also said that people don't yet understand

the concept of this role in one individual's hands, and you are

saying, actually, it is the elections after this one that are

going to be really significant. So what are the next four years going

to be a pilot? No, the next four years are a period when the PCC s

begin to make a difference in their communities, and members of those

communities begin to realise that this PCC is someone who can make a

difference to their lives. And suddenly, you will find, where as

now people have never heard of PCCs, they regard crime as something that

is done to them, not something they can control. But if he's not going

to interfere in policing, what is the great transformation he will do

in people's lives. You can't have it both ways. I believe in

inspirational leadership, I believe a PCC can get a better, more

effective police force, by inspiring and leading and

supporting the Chief Constable. I don't see this as a conflict

between the Chief Constable. Let's talk about the practical and one of

the biggest police cover-ups, if not the biggest, in criminal

history, Hillsborough, general, you lost your two lovely sons. If you

had a Police and Crime Commissioner, answerable to people like yourself,

would you have felt voiceless for so long? The current system doesn't

seem to have worked for us. Some of the decisions that the local police

authorities are not making haven't worked for us. Certain people

should have been suspended, because of allegations about them. It just

didn't happen. You think a Police and Crime Commissioner, because

he's answerable to people, and can get kicked out after four years,

that would have been a better situation for you? I would hope so,

I would hope there would be more transparency. That there would be

more accountability from them bass they were elected. You're a former

top cop yourself, more transparency, more accountability, this a real

possibility? I think it depend. Politicians are not unknown for

deciding not to open up and be transparent, just before an

election. I don't think it is a given that would necessarily happen.

You would have to have other leaders to resolve the type of

situation that resolves around Hillsborough. And there are one or

two facet of the new role, notably, I mean the police authorities for

all their flaws do meet in open public meetings, not with a huge

audience present, because they are not wildly interesting for many.

They are, at least, a public meeting. Most of the decisions

taken between a chief and a Police and Crime Commissioner, will be

taken in a room with a cup of coffee, on their own. Some, some of

that decision-making in public, might go. And there is a really big

onus on the individuals that take on this role, to make sure that the

public transparently see the decisions being taken, and they are

not just done, in what used to be called, smoke-filled rooms.

could get horrendous personality clashes so? That is a distinct

possibility. Most people want to see the relationship work, that

would be unlikely to happen. Jenny? I can hear what you are saying. I

didn't realise that it wouldn't be in an open forum, the decisions

would be made. So that's quite worrying. That's not good for

transparency, is it. However, I come back to the accountability, of

being elected, by the public. agree that there should be

accountability, and what happened with Hillsborough is one of the

greatest policing scandals of my lifetime. But the police there

should have been accountable to the law. And I'm not sure, we have had

generation of elected politicians. It was people-power, ultimately,

that forced change here. And isn't this an expression of democratic

will? Generations of elected politicians, home secretaries, and

others, who didn't deal with this situation. Are you concerned that

the Police and Crime Commissioner, just may not share your liberal

agenda? Not at all. This is a constitutional point that I'm

making, it is not about a liberal agenda, or another agenda, it is

about saying that you need checks and balances in a democracy, and

you need independent people as well as political people. And I would no

more have an elected judge, if you have elected judge, by the way,

Barabbas always walks free. If you put policing in the hands of

elected politicians too, they don't necessarily serve the whole

community, just the most popular bits. Brief final comment here?

see it completely differently, this is a job which relates to, which

concerns, the allegation of scarce resores. We have always known that

is a role for politicians, policing needs are ininfinite, policing

resources very -- infinite, policing resources not. Is it a

Chief Constable that makes that decision or a freely elected PCC,

who has to defend his actions at the polls. And every day, by the

way, the local media will ensure this is transparent. Thank you all

very much for now. Later, we will be looking at what

the candidates themselves say they are going to do if they are elect.

What their priorities are. These commissioners are going to have a

huge effect on where you live. Policing the south west has

significant challenges, it is a huge geographical area, with large,

urban centre, and scattered rural communities. In the summer the

population increase dramatically, putting extra pressure on policing.

In the largest of our three force areas, Devon and Cornwall, crime

has been rising, but, as with all forces, police budgets and numbers

they are being cut. In a moment we will be talking to a former senior

officer, and representatives for victims and neighbourhoods, about

the priorities for the new commissioner, for Dorset, Avon and

Somerset and Devon and Cornwall. First, Simon Hall has been to see

policing on the frontline. Anti-social behaviour is one of the

biggest call on police time. It is a great concern for communities and

will be a key issue for the commissioner. Here, complaints from

neighbour of a teenage party in Plymouth, that has got out of hand.

16, 17, 18, 19, 20. 20 were invited and it was advertised on Facebook.

Good evening. 24, 25. Around 100 young people turned up, most with

alcohol. It is a familiar problem here, and unsettling for neighbours.

It makes you feel uncomfortable in your own home, you want to chill

out for the evening, you have kids next door, and hearing music.

safe in your own home. We don't know who is hanging around outside.

You are a bit uneasy. Move along for me, don't hang

around in alleyways. This is one facet of policing in the south west.

One. Of the greatest challenges for the new commissioner in Devon and

Cornwall, is the sheer size of the two counties, they make up the

biggest police force area in England and Wales. That means

balancing the competing demands of cities and towns, with those of the

great stretches of countryside. At the heart of Devon, Dartmoor is

often seen as a haven of rural tranquility. But the moor suffers

crime of its own, and people here feel they sometimes lose out in

policing priorities. Colin Able has had hundred of his stock stolen,

along with farm machinery, he hopes for more policing under the new

commissioner. As long as they do listen and implement on things.

With all the bugetry constraints that the country is in, will they

have the money in to help us out with the new ideas. These crimes

have been going on for years. in the night life of the city, the

issue this time is alcohol. Another significant one, for the in coming

commissioner. Many will be the demands upon them, the question is

whether they can deliver. Joining me now is former senior police

officer, Barry Frost, also with us from Victim Support in the south

west is Georgie Constable. And from neighbourhood watch we have Julie

Doubton. We saw the police on frontline, operationally the Chief

Constable will remain in charge, how do you see the relationship

working between the Chief Constable and the new crime commissioner?

have ten candidates in Devon and Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly,

and from the list you have some with a police background, some with

none whatsoever. I think those that have no police experience will soon

realise that policing is extremely complex. One of the first roles

they have to do is prioritise the things they want the Chief

Constable and force to do. Clearly there will have to be a

relationship established very quickly between the two of them.

But I actually think, once the commissioner is bedded down and

seen the complexity and reality of police, that they will work well,

with the Chief Constable. Georgie Constable, in terms of how they

deal with victim, there has been improvement with Devon and Cornwall

with the feedback victims of crime get. What would you like to see the

new Police and Crime Commissioner to on behalf of victimss? Whoever

gets in does have a duty to consult with victims of crime. I think they

need to turn that into action, and make sure that victims aren't lost

in the criminal justice system. Sometimes they can be. You have

been talking to so. Candidates, are you getting a sense that they

understand that victim, from your point of view, need to be at the

heart of their plan for policing? think some of them do. I don't

think all of them have the same level of understanding, because

they are all very different people. As Barry has just said. All

different experience, and knowledge. I think they are growing as they go

through the campaign. I saw lots of them earlier on, they are very

different now than they were five week ago.

A lot of the candidate I have spoken to have said they want to

use for special, that they want to use neighbourhood watch groups more

to increase the presence of policing in communities. What role

would you like to see neighbourhood watch play, and what sort of

support would you like to see from the Police and Crime Commissioner?

What we are hoping to see from the Police and Crime Commissioner, that

he or she is prepared to listen and to learn from the people out there

on the streets, doing this every day. Neighbourhood watch is very

important to communities, in crime prevention, community safety and

quality of life. We hope this person will be prepared to talk to

people on the ground and learn from our experience. The commissioner

will have a certain pot of money to allocate with groups like your's.

Is interest conflict with a group like George's, that you are

competing for the small pot of money from the commissioner?

don't, because a lot of the voluntary groups have got together,

in the early stages of this, to talk about how this is going to

work. And the last thing any of us want to do is to be fighting for a

pot of money. Barry Frost, this is contentious in itself this role,

because of the concern that politics will end up playing a

major part in the way our Police Service is being run. What sort of

feeling are you getting from current officers, people you speak

to about the role and how it will work? I think from my contacts in

the fore, I think there is a lot of cynicism around the process. I

actually think the Police Authority do an awful lot of good work, I

think a lot of police officers don't actually understand what the

Police Authority do, or who they are. Where as with the Police

Commissioner, like it or not, we are here debating it already.

Georgie Constable, from a victim's point of view, do you think the

role will provide some benefit, that victims will have someone at

the stop of the chain that will be publicly accountable? -- at the top

of the chain that will be publicly accountable? Absolutely, it is

always nice to see they have some duties set in statute that they

will have to follow through. We have been talking about the role

victims need to play in the criminal justice service and the

role they will have. What about Neighbourhood Watch groups, what do

they feel about having the publicly accountable elected person on the

top of policing? To be Hon he is, I don't know, it is early stages yet.

We are yet to see how it is going to pan out. But, I think that the

majority of Neighbourhood Watch work very well with the police. We

have good partnerships in place with other agencies as well. We

don't want too much interference in it, if it isn't broke don't

interfere in something that is working extremely well. You are yet

to be convinced this is a good idea? Yes, indeed, that is what we

are hearing from our members. They don't know who to vote for, they

don't know who the candidates are. They are very much relying on the

TV, radio and press to let them know. That is the important thing,

there is a concern that whoever is elected is elected on a very small

turnout, with a very low mandate to do anything? Almost blind in some

respects. I actually think sometimes the next time the post is

up for grab, the public will have a better idea of what the role

encompass, because they will see it in operation. We have a duty to

talk to those we come in contact about it before they go out and

vote. If we don't, we can't complain about the Police

Commissioner we get, as with any election. Thank you for joining us.

The debate continues tomorrow in a special programme on your BBC local

radio station from 9.00pm. There are 193 candidates standing

in these election, and each has to produce a statement about what they

want to achieve. I have got all of them here. Some mention their

military backgrounds, some talk about their former role with the

Police Authority, and here are the actual words they use most often.

The bigger they are, the more they commonly appear. "crime", hundreds

of references, 60 references to "drugs", out of 55,000 drugs, only

30 use of the word "alcohol", when 40% of violent crime is fuelled by

alcohol. Is that the right emphasis. One phrase very common is "anti-

social behaviour", mentioned 70 times. That is the ever day, low-

level nuisance crime that so many of us suffer from. You have

suffered terribly from it? You have even got to the stage where you set

up the CCTV camera, we are going to have a look at some of that footage,

talk us through it, guys just lobbing stones at your car?

Targeting us repeatedly, we kept going to court and trying to get

them evicted. In the end, life became unbearable. I think the big

problem is, the police do seem to be, they are not proactive any more.

They were just reactive. A crime would happen, and you know, they

can't do that any more. The police have to be...Do You think a Police

and Crime Commissioner elected by the likes of yourself would

galvanise them. In principle it is a really good idea that you have

someone who is possibly independent. The authorities do mark their own

homework all the time. But, I don't think they have enough powers. I

think they need to have a lot more powers to audit case. As soon as a

case has gone on for say a year, they look at the case management,

it they look at what is going wrong with it. They start to get other

people to look at what is going wrong. This is not just about

policing and budgets and everything else. It is trying to understand

what is going wrong, why things are ineffectual, why are numerous

crimes committed against people, and the people aren't caught. Why

are the prisons not sorting them out. The whole thing. Enough power,

throw that out there. This is a googley for you, not enough power,

flexible more, there is leg room for more powers to evolve? I don't

think they need more power, their job is to identify policing needs

and to deal with their Chief Constable, and the voluntary

organisation, and the victims' groups, to meet the policing needs.

I don't think they need power, I think they need leadership. Tell

him what you think? I totally disagree, the whole problem is when

you start getting beneath the surface of what one Chief Constable

is saying and all the other people that are fobbing you off, you need

to get to the very basics of why that case is such a problem. They

needing to in and look at the case management, look at who is saying

what, who is doing what, why is the evidence collection not good enough.

Why are you having multiple crimes in areas, over and over again, the

same people targeted, and no-one stopping the crime.

The guy, or the woman who would be successful would go on to the

estate and say I'm going to do this for you, and get elected? I think

two points, one is, you can't have the same estate and street targeted

time after time after time, anybody who is any good as a PCC will have

a map on his wall, or her wall, and know weekly and daily where the

crimes are. I have seen this, he will come in and say to the Chief

Constable why have we got another burglary, or whatever, robbery, on

this estate. What's happening. in nobody votes there. It is quite

a different story from investigating a particular case.

There was a key point been made, that some have raised, Chris you

can come in here, not if nobody votes there. You are a former gang

member and turned it around, and helping people out of gangs now.

The people affected by gangs disproportionately, do not live in

the leafy areas, which vote in these elections, are you going to

be listened to? There you go, this is what I feel like the danger in

the communities are, for how the people will be feel, in a sense,

how will you communicate with these people in these communities, and if

the commissioner is going to go down there, it can't be a one-off

thing, after six months nobody knows who to go to. Do you think

somebody standing is going to stand up and say I'm going to help you

people, or will they get votes elsewhere, where perhaps more

obviously populist messages? think comes down to, if there is

support within the community, then the communities are want to help,

change their community, they will want to help. If they don't know

how to do that. There needs to be a youth worker or someone there that

they have to speak to on a regular basis to try to get the issues

tackled. Could they get tackled with the police and crime

commissioners? Definitely, there needs more communication, with the

young people and the communities, the more and more we come together

as a collective the more we will involve the problem, it is not a

one-side issue. That is just half an house already you can see the

sides of some of the issues we are talking about. If you want to hear

from the candidates themselves, BBC radio from across England will hold