Episode 2 The Chillenden Murders


Episode 2

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In 1996,

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the murders of Lin and Megan Russell

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and attempted murder of Josie Russell

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on a quiet country lane in Kent horrified a nation.

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-TV:

-'..one of the most tragic events of the summer.

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'A case unprecedented in British criminal history.'

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The hunt for the killer was one of the biggest stories of the decade.

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'Since the investigation began,

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'more than 9,000 people have been interviewed

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'and a thousand witness statements taken.'

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A year-long manhunt led to Michael Stone being convicted...

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..and sentenced to life in prison.

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'The judge told him there can't be anyone in this country who does not

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'understand the horror of these offences.

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'At that point, Stone out shouted out, "It wasn't me, Your Honour.

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' "I didn't do it." '

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But since that verdict,

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the case continues to make headlines, with doubts being raised

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about Stone's guilt.

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Michael Stone's conviction hung on a very delicate thread.

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There's a considerable question mark about whether this kind of evidence

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can safely be used at all.

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And Stone himself has stuck to the same story.

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'I never murdered them people and I had nothing to do with it.

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'And that's why I'm innocent.'

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But is he a liar and a killer?

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Or could the wrong man be in prison?

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Now, 20 years on,

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a panel of independent experts with decades of experience in criminal

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justice has agreed to review the original case files.

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You're looking at a case from 1996 with 2016 eyes.

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Together they're testing the evidence...

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This one lace contained the key to who killed this family.

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..searching for new clues...

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This has left a lot of unanswered questions.

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The DNA can't be Michael Stone's.

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..and digging deep into one of Britain's most notorious crimes...

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To me, it puts him as prime suspect.

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..to see if justice has been done.

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If it's not Michael Stone, then who is it,

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and where's that individual been for the last 20 years?

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The case review is reaching its halfway point.

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For the last two days, the panel of leading experts from policing,

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forensic science and the law,

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have been examining the crime and investigation.

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It's a crime of a psychopath.

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All the victims have suffered blunt-force trauma to their heads.

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They've analysed eyewitness accounts describing a white man...

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That's the e-fit.

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..driving a beige car.

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He says, "I thought it was an old Escort in beige."

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They've examined evidence, including a blood-covered lace...

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..and towelling used to tie up the victims.

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They found that none of it directly connected to Michael Stone.

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Where does this put us?

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It's not providing any forensic link to Michael Stone, still.

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But they did discover that Stone was a known heroin addict

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with a violent side...

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He attacked a man he'd known from childhood,

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stabbing him in the chest while he was sleeping.

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..and that just days before the Chillenden murders

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he'd been making threats to kill.

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This makes the hairs on my arm come up.

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It's so cold.

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They heard that three prisoners

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testified that he confessed to the crimes in jail.

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It was like being told a horror story.

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But two of them were discredited

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and Stone's conviction was overturned...

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..and a retrial was ordered.

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The jury has begun hearing evidence

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in the second trial of Michael Stone,

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who's accused of attacking three members of the same family.

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41-year-old Michael Stone was brought to court to face two charges

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of murder and one of attempted murder.

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He denies them all.

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Stone's second trial started at Nottingham Crown Court

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in September 2001.

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But within days, it travelled 200 miles to rural Kent.

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-REPORTER:

-Escorted by the police in a car with its windows blacked out,

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Michael Stone was brought to the isolated country lane.

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Without leaving the vehicle, he then watched as the trial judge,

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lawyers and the jury of nine men and three women spent 45 minutes seeing

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for themselves the scene of this horrific attack.

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The prosecution case against Stone argued the location could explain

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Michael Stone's motive for the murders.

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And this is where the panel begins

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the next stage of its review of the case.

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There is Chillenden, Michael Stone lived the other direction,

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not even on this map.

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The prosecution case was that Stone was a known burglar and thief,

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that he travelled from Chatham, one of the Medway Towns,

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to the village of Chillenden -

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it's about 40 miles -

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to commit a burglary or a robbery.

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This was to feed his drug habit.

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'With every case that a barrister does,

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'you have to think about what the motive'

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might have been. You don't need a motive to prove a case,

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but without a motive, you might not be able to prove a case

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if you're prosecuting.

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One thing that puzzles me is

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it's believed that

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this crime could be a robbery gone wrong.

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But then you look at what items capable of being stolen of value

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were still left at the scene and not taken.

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Lin Russell had a necklace on that was left on her,

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and in a pocket she had a watch

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of which the strap had partially broken.

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So that leads me to believe that potentially

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the motive wasn't robbery.

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It doesn't sit right.

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This has taken time and effort.

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The perpetrator has actually dragged three people into trees,

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tied them up,

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hit them repeatedly over the head with a hammer.

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It wasn't a quick attack.

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I mean, it's going to take us 45 minutes

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to drive from Chatham to Chillenden.

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And there isn't any other way to do it.

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If he was looking to rob people, it's a bit out-of-the-way.

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You're not going to find that many people.

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Journalist Barry Keevins was based in Kent and covered the case.

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If you've come here to rob,

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there's nothing here.

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You can look around, 360, and see one or two buildings,

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but there's nothing else here.

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If you've come down...

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If you've driven 45 minutes from Chatham to try and find somebody

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or something to rob, this is not the place.

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'I didn't know the area.

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'I've never been there. Like, I've never been there to go there.

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'I have driven all around Kent and just been out in the car.

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'I've just gone around roads and driven wherever the roads go,

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'you know what I mean?

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'But I don't specifically remember going there and

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'if I've ever been down there, it was maybe once or twice.

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'But not down there, down there, do you know what I mean?'

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During the trial,

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Stone's claim that he didn't know the Chillenden area well

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became a focus for the prosecution's attack.

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-REPORTER:

-Mr Sweeney explained that Michael Stone

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had told a whopper during police interviews when he repeatedly denied

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knowing the area where the murders

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were committed. The QC called it utter nonsense,

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and he invited the jury of nine men and three women

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to ask themselves why he had lied.

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Former senior detective Jane Antrobus is investigating

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just how well Stone knew the area.

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In the case files, she makes a discovery.

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Michael Stone says he doesn't know Chillenden at all,

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yet I've got a statement here from John Henry Porter,

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who was a friend of his, and he goes back to 1991,

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just four years before.

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He said they were out and about looking for houses,

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farm houses to burgle.

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He even says, "He knew the area like the back of his hand."

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The prosecution relied quite heavily on the issue of

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the lies which were told in interview.

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And one of the first that they relied on was that Stone said that

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he had no knowledge of Chillenden and the surrounding areas.

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What he said was, "I don't know this precise area."

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Well, that's a lie, cos he does.

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He doesn't know Chillenden.

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He does, cos this statement...

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-Yeah.

-..of John Henry Porter...

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says, in 1991...

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..it said they were driving about, going up farm tracks,

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looking at farmhouses and obviously up to no good.

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You know, the area, he knows within half a mile of the murder scene.

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Yeah, yeah.

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So, to me, that's the area.

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I mean, his answer to that in interview

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was that "Porter and I are enemies"

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and Porter said in his statement, "He is my enemy,

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"he stole my girlfriend.

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"He's not a nice person," and so he may have been lying.

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But there was other evidence used to link Stone to the area.

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The jury heard that he'd lived in a children's home close by.

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It's a four-mile drive from the scene of the crime, and his sister,

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Barbara, remembers being there with him.

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It wasn't one of the best times of my life and I kind of maybe would

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have forgotten it anyway if, um...

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You know, this has brought it back to my attention because it's

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suddenly become part of the evidence in the murder trial.

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So, Mick, I believe, might have been in this block here.

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Cos all the time on the way here I thought I would be staying with him

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and it came as quite a shock when they separated us.

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I remember crying for him.

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That's why I remember it at all, to be honest,

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cos it upset me so much.

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But the fact is, we were aged, what, six,

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seven maximum for myself, and eight, nine for Mick.

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We were only here for three weeks.

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Can't remember once stepping out the door and playing or anything.

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Everywhere we went we were supervised, we had staff with us.

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And they certainly didn't take us out on long rambles.

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So there's no way that Mick could have got to know the local area.

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But then evidence was revealed which the prosecution claimed didn't just

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link Stone to the area, but to the crime scene.

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-REPORTER:

-The murder trial of Michael Stone has heard evidence

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about a bootlace found near the place where Lin and Megan Russell

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were battered to death. A forensic scientist has said

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that marks on Megan's neck suggested

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the lace had been used as a ligature during the attack.

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But he said it could also have been used as a tourniquet by a drug user.

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While the bloodstained bootlace had offered no forensic connection

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to Michael Stone,

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if the claim it was a drug's tourniquet was true,

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then THAT use gave the prosecution its link.

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-REPORTER:

-The jury heard uncontested statements from a number of witnesses saying,

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as a tourniquet sometimes he used a bootlace, and that is the connection

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which the prosecution is trying to make.

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So we're trying to get to the bottom of why you would think it was

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a tourniquet. In the second trial, Roger Ide, the expert,

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originally said in his statement that there was stretching

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that was more likely to be a result

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of the lace being used as a ligature,

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ie, some kind of restraint, and not just as a bootlace.

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No mention of a tourniquet.

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Then, during the trial, when he was actually giving evidence,

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the Times reported that he changed his mind

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when he considered how heroin addicts use laces to bring up veins

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to help with injecting the drug.

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But it was also argued that the presence of three knots in the lace

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made it a more likely tourniquet.

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I have the transcripts of the drugs counsellor.

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"In terms of the knots themselves, the larger knot,

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"the one knot that's placed over the centre,

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"it shows with this type of material,

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"that it's along the line of what somebody would use with somebody

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"that IV injects."

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If you conclude that it's a tourniquet,

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then it narrows the field of who the offender may be,

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ie, an intravenous drug user like Stone.

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But if it's NOT a tourniquet,

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then it's just any old bootlace that any white male with a beige car

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could have had.

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And so that means the pool of suspects is so much larger.

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To establish if it's possible to prove the lace was a tourniquet,

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the panel call their own independent expert.

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You've obviously seen the e-mail of the alleged tourniquet?

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'I've got the pictures of the boot lace, yes.'

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What's your opinion of it, whether you think it is a tourniquet,

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or you think it's not, or you can't tell either way?

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But do the presence of the knots give you any indication one way or another?

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Would you stand up in court and say this is probably a tourniquet?

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And we asked him about what test we might be able to do to try and

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verify whether it could have been used by a drug user

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and he suggested you could test it for heroin.

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He says, you don't really even need to know how much heroin was there,

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you just need to know is it there or not?

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He said that would be quite straightforward to do.

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I think the main thing at the moment is,

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if there is doubt over this being a tourniquet,

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if it isn't a tourniquet,

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then there's no link to Michael Stone.

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By day four of the trial,

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the jury had heard evidence about the tourniquet

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and Stone's apparent lies.

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But it was about to take a dramatic turn.

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-REPORTER:

-Sheree Batt told the jury that she saw blood on

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Michael Stone's white T-shirt from the neckline to the chest area.

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When she asked him about the stains,

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the defendant is alleged to have zipped up his hooded top

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and explained that he'd been involved in a fight.

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What's her relationship to Michael Stone?

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So, she knew him via her boyfriend,

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who she says would go out and spend a lot of time with Stone

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and she does remember distinctly one morning,

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it would have been around the 10th,

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she saw blood on his top.

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I think that was quite powerful evidence

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in the sense that that would be a massive coincidence that this man,

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who we have all these other potential links to -

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this area, the offence,

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the type of offence and things like that -

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is a man that on that day had blood on his clothing.

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Every piece of evidence has more than one side to it.

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It is important to look as deeply into the detail as possible because

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you will often find that the truth, or, um,

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the lies, are revealed.

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Although Sheree Batt couldn't be precise about when she saw Stone,

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the prosecution estimated it was the 10th of July,

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the day after the murders.

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If you look at her statement...

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So Stephen and Sheryl return to the case files to see if anyone else saw

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Stone on that day.

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So, looking at the time on the 10th

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that Sheree Batt says she saw Michael Stone,

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she said that he called around at the address around late morning

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or early afternoon.

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But Stone had an appointment with his psychiatric nurse at about

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lunchtime on the 10th.

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There was a policeman who also gave a statement in the case and he said

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he saw Stone on that same day,

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the 10th, at about 1.30pm, and he'd noted that he looked clean and tidy.

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And none of them recounted seeing blood on his top.

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And so, you have to balance that against somebody who's saying he IS

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appearing with blood on his top, so has he changed his top?

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Is there a mix-up as to dates

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and that may undermine the whole value of Sheree Batt's evidence?

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So we're back to the point of, I guess, maybe the pendulum

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or the scales going one way and then the other.

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But there was evidence the jury didn't get to hear

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about Sheree Batt.

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My involvement started through a conversation I had

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with my then editor.

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He said the case was something he'd like me to look at

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because there were question marks over it.

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I went down to Chatham and met with Harold and Jean Batt,

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the parents of Sheree Batt.

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They ushered me into an immaculate front room and began telling me how

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they were disowning their daughter,

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that they believed her testimony was false.

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She alleged that bribes and threats were offered...

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..to persuade her daughter,

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Sheree, to go to court and support the prosecution.

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Those allegations were never proved, but Jo-Ann Goodwin's article

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questioning Sheree Batt's evidence and Michael Stone's guilt

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was published.

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In no way do I set myself up as a critic of the police, I'm not.

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I just, you know,

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went after this case cos I felt that there was something wrong with it.

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As the trial entered its final days,

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the prosecution called its star witness,

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a former prisoner named Damien Daley.

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-NEWSREADER:

-The jury in the trial of Michael Stone,

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the man accused of murdering Lin and Megan Russell,

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has been told that a former prison inmate heard him

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confess to their murders.

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Daley was an inmate at Canterbury Prison, who claimed Stone

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confessed to him through a pipe in the wall of their adjoining cells.

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None of the other pieces of evidence would have led to a case to bring to

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a jury,

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and the confession is the direct evidence of him saying, "I did it,"

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which made their case.

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But Daley was just one of many prisoners claiming Stone confessed.

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At his first trial,

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two others testified against him but were discredited.

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And while on remand, several made claims he talked about the crimes.

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So the panel dig deep into the prison files to find out more about

0:21:450:21:49

who Stone was talking to.

0:21:490:21:51

And criminologist Richard Hobbs makes a surprising discovery.

0:21:530:21:57

We've got some letters written by Stone, apparently with a woman

0:21:580:22:02

who's befriended him.

0:22:020:22:04

It's kind of interesting the way I think that people want to befriend

0:22:040:22:06

someone who may be a murderer.

0:22:060:22:08

This is an emotional connection that's been struck up between

0:22:080:22:11

him and this woman.

0:22:110:22:12

It's almost a promise of a domestic future,

0:22:120:22:15

the promise of something beyond prison for Michael Stone

0:22:150:22:18

that's being hung out in front of him.

0:22:180:22:20

This is Michael Stone.

0:22:200:22:21

"I like the idea of going somewhere where there is

0:22:210:22:24

"a lot of sun and sand with you when I get out,

0:22:240:22:26

"and sharing special moments. It sounds very interesting."

0:22:260:22:28

This woman is asking him very clear questions about the case, about him,

0:22:300:22:35

about how he's feeling.

0:22:350:22:36

But the author, Pat, isn't what she appears to be from her letters.

0:22:410:22:45

You have to be a bit chameleon-like, really.

0:22:500:22:52

You write to him as the person you think they'll respond to.

0:22:520:22:56

He's murdered a female

0:22:580:23:01

so he's clearly interested in females,

0:23:010:23:03

so you have to write to him as a female.

0:23:030:23:06

The girl's name is Patsy Scanlon.

0:23:060:23:08

In the 1990s,

0:23:120:23:14

Bernard O'Mahoney worked with the tabloid press

0:23:140:23:17

to elicit confessions from high-profile murder suspects

0:23:170:23:20

by writing to them as a potential pen-pal.

0:23:200:23:23

I wrote to Ian Huntley.

0:23:240:23:26

He wrote to me and said,

0:23:270:23:28

"Send me a photograph of yourself in a Manchester United shirt."

0:23:280:23:33

And if you remember,

0:23:330:23:34

the two girls he murdered were wearing Manchester United shirts.

0:23:340:23:37

Now, how sick is that?

0:23:370:23:39

-INTERVIEWER:

-So why do it?

-Why?

0:23:390:23:42

Because some people protest about the ozone layer,

0:23:420:23:48

some people protest about whales,

0:23:480:23:51

God knows what else, cats and dogs.

0:23:510:23:54

I don't like people who kill children

0:23:540:23:57

and I do something about it.

0:23:570:23:59

It's a difficult thing to do, to get them to confess.

0:23:590:24:01

The line always was, "It's not fair what they're doing to you.

0:24:010:24:05

"I feel sorry for you.

0:24:050:24:07

"It's awful for you."

0:24:070:24:09

You know, and it's like a ray of hope for him

0:24:090:24:12

and he grabs it with both hands.

0:24:120:24:14

O'Mahoney wrote to Stone as a single mother from Essex.

0:24:160:24:20

He started writing back.

0:24:230:24:24

But Michael Stone never confessed.

0:24:280:24:31

He found out my true identity via a journalist,

0:24:340:24:38

so he wrote back saying, like, your cover's been blown,

0:24:380:24:41

I know who you are. I said, "Well, I think you're guilty."

0:24:410:24:43

"No, I'm not." I said, "All right, I'll listen to you.

0:24:430:24:46

"I'll listen to what you got to say."

0:24:460:24:48

So he told about this guy, Damien Daley, and said, you know,

0:24:480:24:53

he stitched me up, blah, blah, blah.

0:24:530:24:54

So I said, right, benefit of the doubt, I'll write to Daley.

0:24:540:24:58

But I did and, you know, Daley stood by what he said.

0:24:590:25:04

I wasn't 100% sure Stone was guilty but then again,

0:25:080:25:12

the police don't convict you, the judges doesn't convict you,

0:25:120:25:16

your peers convict you.

0:25:160:25:18

On the whole, the system works.

0:25:180:25:20

By the time of Stone's retrial,

0:25:280:25:30

the only confession evidence that made it to court

0:25:300:25:33

was that of Damien Daley.

0:25:330:25:35

When Daley arrived at court,

0:25:370:25:39

he walked past the dock where Stone was obviously surrounded

0:25:390:25:43

by prison guards.

0:25:430:25:45

He gave him the most amazing glare

0:25:450:25:48

and he continued glaring at him throughout his entire evidence.

0:25:480:25:52

He was very believable.

0:25:550:25:56

Under cross-examination, he stuck to his guns.

0:25:560:25:59

He was accused in very robust terms by Stone's lawyer

0:25:590:26:03

of making it all up.

0:26:030:26:05

This evidence was crucial for the prosecution.

0:26:070:26:10

It was crucial for the police.

0:26:100:26:12

In fact, the judge said,

0:26:120:26:13

"If you don't believe this, then Michael Stone has to walk."

0:26:130:26:16

The panel make Daley's evidence the focus of the next stage of

0:26:200:26:23

their review.

0:26:230:26:24

This is what he said.

0:26:260:26:27

I'm going to summarise but, on Tuesday the 23rd of September 1997,

0:26:270:26:31

about 8pm, I was alone in my cell

0:26:310:26:33

when I became aware of a prisoner in a cell next to me.

0:26:330:26:38

He said Michael Stone said to him, "If it wasn't for that slag,

0:26:380:26:42

"I'd be OK."

0:26:420:26:44

"He said she'd picked him."

0:26:440:26:45

"I understand he may have been talking about an identity parade."

0:26:450:26:48

"I'd been given a copy of 23rd of September's Daily Mirror by a prisoner above me.

0:26:500:26:54

"I had begun to read the first two pages when Stone began to speak to me again.

0:26:540:26:58

"I stopped reading the newspaper and listened to him.

0:26:580:27:02

"He then said, 'I tied them up with the towels but I didn't need to

0:27:020:27:06

" 'because they were out of the game.' "

0:27:060:27:09

And then he got the impression that Stone was actually getting off on

0:27:090:27:14

telling this story.

0:27:140:27:16

He said the towels were wet and mentioned something about shoelaces.

0:27:160:27:21

Then he talked about the dog barking and, he says,

0:27:210:27:26

told Stone to shut up because he was sickened by what he was hearing,

0:27:260:27:30

and he said, "I told him I'll tell the screws what you've said."

0:27:300:27:34

And then he ends his statement by saying, "I've got nothing to gain by

0:27:340:27:37

"telling you this." So that is Daley's story.

0:27:370:27:41

And so the question is, how reliable is it and how did it come about?

0:27:410:27:48

The panel starts by investigating whether Daley's account of how Stone

0:27:500:27:54

spoke to him from the neighbouring cell was possible.

0:27:540:27:57

Jane has tracked down the former head of security at Canterbury Prison.

0:27:590:28:03

What's your experience of prisoners actually speaking to each other

0:28:040:28:09

through the walls, through heating vents, etc?

0:28:090:28:12

I've just had a conversation with a prison governor at the time.

0:28:540:28:59

He said, yes, it was quite possible to speak through the heating pipes.

0:28:590:29:03

In fact, a test was done and that was proved.

0:29:030:29:07

So I said,

0:29:070:29:09

"Well, what's your opinion about did the confession happen or not?"

0:29:090:29:13

He said, "Well, I was made aware that elements of information in that

0:29:130:29:20

"confession were not in the public domain."

0:29:200:29:24

-Is that what he said?

-Yes.

0:29:240:29:26

In that case, we'll examine that, compare it to Daley, his statement,

0:29:260:29:29

and see where it takes us.

0:29:290:29:32

Yeah.

0:29:320:29:33

The thing that may make a cell confession actually quite

0:29:340:29:38

a compelling piece of evidence is if, for instance,

0:29:380:29:42

there is information in that alleged confession that is not

0:29:420:29:47

in the public domain.

0:29:470:29:49

So, for instance, maybe a piece of information that ONLY the offender would know.

0:29:520:29:58

To test if there was anything that Daley claimed he heard that could

0:30:000:30:04

only have come from Stone,

0:30:040:30:05

Stephen and Sheryl cross-refer his statement

0:30:050:30:08

with what was already in the press.

0:30:080:30:10

So, in the confession, the thing about the towels,

0:30:120:30:15

it says, "I tied them up with towels."

0:30:150:30:18

"Josie has said the killer told them, 'I just want to tie you up while I drive away,'

0:30:190:30:23

"after binding her wrists with strips from one of the towels."

0:30:230:30:28

And that's in the Daily Mail.

0:30:280:30:29

There's a reference to a shoelace.

0:30:320:30:35

"Six-year-old Megan was partially throttled with a boot lace tied twice around her throat."

0:30:360:30:43

Which again matches what's out there in the media.

0:30:430:30:46

All the stuff about one getting away and being brought back...

0:30:480:30:50

Yeah, that's in this report.

0:30:500:30:52

"She was caught by the man and dragged back."

0:30:530:30:56

They find all of the details from Daley's account of the confession

0:30:590:31:03

could have been picked up from the press.

0:31:030:31:05

But with one important exception.

0:31:070:31:09

In his statement,

0:31:120:31:13

Daley said Stone complained about being picked out in an ID parade.

0:31:130:31:18

The prosecution claimed that this must refer to a line-up held the day

0:31:180:31:21

before, attended by Josie Russell

0:31:210:31:24

and a witness called Nicola Burchell,

0:31:240:31:27

whose sighting of the killer was the basis for the e-fit.

0:31:270:31:30

Although neither of them positively identified Stone,

0:31:320:31:35

Nicola Burchell did say he looked familiar.

0:31:350:31:38

This detail was kept secret from the press,

0:31:400:31:43

so, according to the prosecution, only Stone would have known it.

0:31:430:31:47

The Crown's best point was the ID pick-out, right?

0:31:500:31:53

In the so-called confession he said,

0:31:530:31:56

"It wasn't for that slag picking me out..." - right?

0:31:560:32:00

The fact that the ID parade had produced a result of sorts,

0:32:000:32:04

the police had deliberately kept out of the public domain,

0:32:040:32:07

so how did Daley know Stone had been picked out unless Stone had been

0:32:070:32:12

talking about it to him? And it's a good point.

0:32:120:32:15

But Stephen and Sheryl think there's another possibility.

0:32:160:32:19

23rd September.

0:32:190:32:21

On the day Stone allegedly confessed,

0:32:220:32:24

the press were running stories about Josie attending the ID parade.

0:32:240:32:28

Right, so the main news story both in this and other papers that day is

0:32:300:32:34

that there'd been an ID parade.

0:32:340:32:37

"The Crown Prosecution Service lawyers are now considering whether

0:32:370:32:41

"to charge a suspect with killing

0:32:410:32:43

"Josie's mum, Lin, and sister, Megan."

0:32:430:32:46

And then he turns up in your next-door cell.

0:32:460:32:47

Is it possible those stories led Daley to believe

0:32:490:32:52

that it was Josie Russell that picked out Stone?

0:32:520:32:55

By reading one of the articles that was printed on the day of

0:33:010:33:04

the confession, you will see the information was in the public domain.

0:33:040:33:08

Police released information to be printed on that day.

0:33:110:33:14

If you could just put up what the headlines were and what it says?

0:33:140:33:18

And it's from the Mirror,

0:33:180:33:20

so that's obviously the newspaper that Damien Daley says

0:33:200:33:24

he had in his cell, leads with Josie Russell facing an ID parade,

0:33:240:33:28

and all the newspapers at the time were running with that story.

0:33:280:33:33

And it says, "Schoolgirl Josie Russell

0:33:350:33:37

"has been brought face-to-face with

0:33:370:33:39

"the man police think murdered her mother and sister.

0:33:390:33:43

"The result was not revealed but Crown Prosecution lawyers

0:33:440:33:49

"are now considering

0:33:490:33:51

"whether to charge a suspect with

0:33:510:33:53

"killing Josie's mum, Lin, and sister, Megan, six..."

0:33:530:33:56

There's been an ID parade by the girl.

0:33:570:34:00

We're not telling you what the result was but the CPS are now considering charging a man.

0:34:000:34:04

What else would you think, other than that she picked him out?

0:34:040:34:08

The more you look into the detail,

0:34:100:34:12

the more you actually see everything in the statement

0:34:120:34:16

is in the public domain - most of it that day.

0:34:160:34:19

I've done no deals with the police at all.

0:34:290:34:32

People saying, oh, I done it for money or I done it to, you know,

0:34:320:34:36

get my face in the papers and whatnot,

0:34:360:34:38

it's, I didn't want none of that.

0:34:380:34:40

So there's no self-gain here at all.

0:34:400:34:41

But the review also turns up evidence about why Stone was in

0:34:430:34:48

the cell next to Daley in the first place.

0:34:480:34:50

When he was remanded in custody,

0:34:520:34:53

he told the prison officers that he wanted

0:34:530:34:57

to be put in the segregation unit

0:34:570:34:59

because people in the prison were saying that he was confessing

0:34:590:35:05

to them, and this is recorded in the prison documentation, that that was

0:35:050:35:09

my reason for wanting to be put in segregation.

0:35:090:35:11

It's called Rule 43.

0:35:110:35:12

'The police had already said that other prisoners had said that

0:35:170:35:20

'I'd confess to it.

0:35:200:35:22

'I said I want to go in the segregation and I want to be

0:35:220:35:26

'in a cell on my own and I don't want to be going near other prisoners.

0:35:260:35:31

'I don't want them to, to make statements to say that I confessed.

0:35:310:35:35

'And then the governor come round.

0:35:360:35:39

'I asked him to write the reason why on the GOAD form.

0:35:390:35:42

'And he wrote it on there.'

0:35:430:35:45

-STEPHEN:

-The man who's in custody

0:35:490:35:51

brought into segregation sees himself in

0:35:510:35:54

the papers as the suspect,

0:35:540:35:58

says I want to be here cos people are saying I'm confessing,

0:35:580:36:01

and then he gets into a cell and confesses through a wall to

0:36:010:36:05

an unknown person to being the man.

0:36:050:36:08

How does that work?

0:36:080:36:09

Given Stone's mental state...

0:36:090:36:13

..his mental illness, his addiction, maybe he WOULD have done it.

0:36:150:36:20

Maybe he WOULD have owned up.

0:36:200:36:22

Maybe he DID confess.

0:36:220:36:23

Maybe he did.

0:36:230:36:25

The judge summed up to the jury that

0:36:270:36:30

everything else in the case is circumstantial.

0:36:300:36:35

You can only convict this man if you accept as the truth

0:36:350:36:40

Damien Daley's evidence.

0:36:400:36:43

Michael Stone's conviction hung on a very delicate thread.

0:36:440:36:49

After a trial lasting nearly a month,

0:36:540:36:57

the jury retired to consider its verdict.

0:36:570:37:00

It was a very difficult case to call but I was quite close to

0:37:030:37:08

a very senior officer in the case

0:37:080:37:10

and he said to me, "If the jury believe Daley, he goes down.

0:37:100:37:14

"If they don't believe Daley, Stone walks."

0:37:140:37:17

-NEWSREADER:

-Michael Stone has been found guilty of the murders of Dr Lin Russell

0:37:230:37:28

and her daughter Megan, along with the attempted murder of Josie Russell.

0:37:280:37:32

In the public gallery, Michael Stone's sister Barbara shouted, "Oh, no, not again!"

0:37:320:37:36

Michael Stone convicted for a second time of a crime

0:37:380:37:41

which ripped a family apart.

0:37:410:37:43

People did come forward afterwards

0:37:480:37:51

to say that Daley told us that he lied

0:37:510:37:54

and had stitched Michael Stone up,

0:37:540:37:57

but then the difficulty was they have a particular background,

0:37:570:38:01

so they are also of that criminal world,

0:38:010:38:04

and so it raises the question about THEIR credibility.

0:38:040:38:09

I was friends with the Daley family.

0:38:140:38:16

You know, we're going back getting on for 50 years.

0:38:160:38:18

They came round and asked me to go and visit Damien while he was on remand

0:38:200:38:24

for petrol bombing a nightclub just along the road there.

0:38:240:38:27

I sat down and he said to me, "Do you know Michael Stone?"

0:38:270:38:31

I said, "No, I don't know Michael Stone.

0:38:310:38:33

"I've never heard of Michael Stone."

0:38:330:38:34

He said, "Well, he's a nonce case.

0:38:340:38:36

"He's been arrested for murder.

0:38:360:38:39

"Them children that were killed at Chillenden."

0:38:390:38:41

So I said, "What's that got to do with you?"

0:38:410:38:43

My advice to him was, it is your duty as a normal con to do him.

0:38:430:38:48

If you think he's done children,

0:38:480:38:50

it's your duty to attack him if you can.

0:38:500:38:52

But you do not give evidence against anybody else in this prison.

0:38:520:38:55

And that was the end of that conversation with Damien Daley.

0:38:550:38:58

About two weeks later,

0:38:580:39:00

and I see Damien Daley walking up the road

0:39:000:39:02

and I actually called across to him and asked him

0:39:020:39:05

how the hell he's out of prison

0:39:050:39:07

and he replied, "They call me the Teflon Dame now.

0:39:070:39:10

"They can't make nothing stick."

0:39:100:39:12

And I said, "More like you're giving evidence against that guy, isn't it?

0:39:120:39:16

"You've done a deal with the police."

0:39:160:39:17

I went, "You're fitting Stone up, aren't you?" And he said yes.

0:39:170:39:21

He admitted to me that he was fitting Stone up.

0:39:210:39:23

Looking at the criminal background of those people,

0:39:280:39:30

are they trustworthy?

0:39:300:39:31

Do they have any axes to grind?

0:39:330:39:35

And so it becomes really, really difficult to be able to unpick

0:39:370:39:40

where the truth actually lies.

0:39:400:39:42

Has anyone gone through the process of speaking to Damien Daley?

0:39:440:39:50

Where is he now?

0:39:500:39:51

He's now convicted of murder, and is serving a life sentence.

0:39:510:39:55

Just to clarify.

0:39:560:39:58

The evidence was provided by a man

0:39:580:40:02

-who is now serving a life sentence for murder?

-Yes.

0:40:020:40:05

The allegations that Daley had lied form part of two appeals

0:40:090:40:13

for Michael Stone.

0:40:130:40:15

Both failed.

0:40:160:40:17

But as part of those appeals, more sophisticated forensic tests were

0:40:200:40:24

carried out on key evidence.

0:40:240:40:26

And they reveal something unexpected.

0:40:260:40:29

With respect to the towel, the testing that was done in 2010,

0:40:310:40:35

they actually targeted the ends of the towel.

0:40:350:40:37

They swabbed these ends, all six, and combined them.

0:40:370:40:41

They got what they referred to as a complex mixed DNA profile.

0:40:410:40:45

It's likely that the Russell family members are present,

0:40:450:40:48

ie, the victims, but that there is some DNA components present

0:40:480:40:52

that they can't attribute to the victims.

0:40:520:40:54

They got indication of a Y chromosome,

0:40:560:40:58

ie, there was male DNA present.

0:40:580:41:00

But none of the DNA components observed

0:41:010:41:04

were in the profile of Michael Stone.

0:41:040:41:06

-Michael Stone, if he did it...

-Did not leave his DNA on it.

0:41:080:41:12

He manages never, ever to shed on different surfaces

0:41:120:41:15

through different activities at different times.

0:41:150:41:18

We know the perpetrator has torn it up and used it to tie

0:41:180:41:21

-people up.

-Significantly, yeah.

0:41:210:41:23

That is very significant.

0:41:230:41:25

Every area where they've got a positive, it's not him.

0:41:250:41:29

The questions that continue to surround Michael Stone's conviction

0:41:330:41:37

have led to speculation

0:41:370:41:39

about who else could have committed the murders.

0:41:390:41:41

And one name keeps cropping up.

0:41:430:41:45

Levi Bellfield.

0:41:480:41:50

It's nine years since 13-year-old Milly Dowler

0:41:500:41:53

vanished on her way home from school.

0:41:530:41:55

Today, a nightclub doorman, Levi Bellfield,

0:41:550:41:58

was found guilty of her abduction and murder.

0:41:580:42:00

Bellfield is currently serving multiple life sentences for three murders,

0:42:010:42:06

including that of 13-year-old Milly Dowler.

0:42:060:42:09

-NEWSREADER:

-He was described by the judge

0:42:110:42:13

as a cruel and pitiless killer.

0:42:130:42:14

He used a hammer as a weapon,

0:42:170:42:19

and there were recent claims that he'd admitted other crimes.

0:42:190:42:23

-NEWSREADER:

-Police suspect he could be involved in

0:42:250:42:28

as many as 20 other serious crimes.

0:42:280:42:30

One of the crimes he was linked to was the Chillenden murders.

0:42:310:42:35

That possible link is one that Stone's solicitor, Paul Bacon,

0:42:390:42:43

wants to see investigated.

0:42:430:42:45

But it's prompted a response from Bellfield himself.

0:42:470:42:50

This is a letter from Levi Bellfield. He writes,

0:42:550:42:57

"Dear Mr Baker, I feel compelled to write to you

0:42:570:42:59

"in reference to your client, Mr Stone. If he is innocent,

0:42:590:43:02

"then I truly sympathise with his current situation.

0:43:020:43:05

"However, to use me to gain publicity to favour Mr Stone is

0:43:050:43:08

"clearly unacceptable, especially as I am ALSO maintaining MY innocence.

0:43:080:43:14

"I had no connections to Kent area until 2002.

0:43:150:43:20

"I will provide your forensics experts with DNA,

0:43:200:43:24

"but please stop publicly linking me to your case.

0:43:240:43:28

"This is not helping my own fight.

0:43:280:43:30

"I have enough without your case further nonsing me off in the media.

0:43:300:43:35

"Yours sincerely, Levi Bellfield."

0:43:350:43:36

I wrote back to him and said, "Thank you very much, that's very kind.

0:43:380:43:41

"Could we arrange to have your DNA taken and also fingerprints would also be very useful.

0:43:410:43:46

"Give me details of your solicitor, and I'll make the arrangements through them."

0:43:460:43:50

But he never responded again.

0:43:500:43:51

'Whoever did a crime like that would do it again.

0:43:560:43:59

'The fact that we know that Levi Bellfield has done several more,

0:43:590:44:03

'the only chance is linking the forensics to Levi Bellfield.

0:44:030:44:07

'I've decided to put all my eggs in one basket.

0:44:090:44:11

'If it ain't him, we're fucked, basically.'

0:44:110:44:14

The panel now examine whether they can rule Levi Bellfield in or out.

0:44:180:44:23

-That's the e-fit.

-I mean,

0:44:250:44:27

it's no worse than the match between Michael Stone and him.

0:44:270:44:31

-No, no.

-I mean, he's somebody, who,

0:44:310:44:32

when you ask the question - shall we look at his DNA if we can? -

0:44:320:44:35

-you'd say yes.

-Yes.

-Yes.

0:44:350:44:37

And then they track down the detective who led the investigation into Bellfield's hammer killings.

0:44:420:44:47

-'Hello, Colin Sutton.'

-Hello, Colin.

0:44:480:44:51

We're calling you about your involvement with Levi Bellfield.

0:44:510:44:56

That he might have been involved in the Chillenden murders.

0:44:560:44:59

Do you want to just tell us whether you've done

0:44:590:45:02

or looked into anything on this angle?

0:45:020:45:04

'In 2008, after Levi Bellfield was convicted of the two murders

0:45:040:45:08

'and the attempted murder,

0:45:080:45:10

'we looked at other possible offences, and this was one of them.

0:45:100:45:13

'In terms of commonalities, the victims were female,

0:45:130:45:17

'that there was some kind of blunt-force trauma.'

0:45:170:45:21

Are you aware that he had any links to Kent at all?

0:45:210:45:25

'Yes, he did. His family had a caravan on the Isle of Sheppey

0:45:250:45:30

'that they would go to for holidays.

0:45:300:45:33

'But at that time,

0:45:330:45:35

'we had a statement from a former girlfriend which gave him

0:45:350:45:41

-'a pretty solid alibi.'

-It's quite rare, isn't it,

0:45:410:45:44

for a man to use a hammer on a woman or a child,

0:45:440:45:48

in your experience as a detective in murders?

0:45:480:45:51

'Yes, not just in my experience,

0:45:510:45:52

'but there was some research done at the time,

0:45:520:45:55

'and in the Greater London area,

0:45:550:45:57

'the only unsolved attack of that nature,

0:45:570:46:00

'there was only one of all of them that we couldn't actually

0:46:000:46:04

'realistically say was probably Levi Bellfield.

0:46:040:46:06

'Obviously, he wasn't convicted of them all.

0:46:060:46:09

'But, I mean, that's how rare they are.'

0:46:090:46:11

So, can we just sum that up, then?

0:46:110:46:13

Although you can't prove all of them,

0:46:130:46:14

the conclusion was that all of them had been done by Levi Bellfield,

0:46:140:46:18

-bar one.

-In the Greater London area.

-In the Greater London area.

0:46:180:46:21

'In the Greater London area, yeah.

0:46:210:46:23

'And that was going from, kind of, I think, 1990 to 2004,

0:46:230:46:28

'so a period of about 14, 15 years.'

0:46:280:46:31

Wow. That's...

0:46:310:46:33

I'm quite shocked by that.

0:46:330:46:34

Jane goes on to investigate any other possible connections

0:46:380:46:42

to the key evidence.

0:46:420:46:43

Particularly the killer's beige car,

0:46:440:46:46

thought to be a Ford.

0:46:460:46:48

There's no beige car ever found that the police can physically link to

0:46:500:46:55

Michael Stone.

0:46:550:46:56

We've still got an outstanding beige car from that murder investigation.

0:46:560:47:03

One person who might be able to help with that is Bellfield's girlfriend

0:47:060:47:10

from the time of the Chillenden murders.

0:47:100:47:12

When I look at that picture, I think he's already killed two girls.

0:47:170:47:20

Maybe the third.

0:47:220:47:23

-INTERVIEWER:

-Do you think there are more?

0:47:230:47:25

Yeah. Yeah, I do believe there's more.

0:47:250:47:27

So how many crimes do you think he might be responsible for?

0:47:300:47:33

Um... A lot.

0:47:340:47:37

Hundreds.

0:47:370:47:38

What car was he driving at the time?

0:47:410:47:43

I had my beige Sapphire Ford.

0:47:450:47:49

Do you remember the...

0:47:490:47:51

It was an E reg.

0:47:510:47:53

What happened to that car?

0:47:530:47:55

Levi used it one night,

0:47:560:47:58

and he rang me to say that the car had been stolen from the car park.

0:47:580:48:02

Was it ever found?

0:48:030:48:05

Apparently so, burnt out, in another part of Feltham,

0:48:050:48:09

but I don't fully know.

0:48:090:48:11

I've always said, yes, he's done this, yes, he's done that.

0:48:140:48:18

But I can, hand on my heart, say, at that time,

0:48:180:48:21

he did not do the crime that they are saying he did,

0:48:210:48:26

he didn't kill the mother and daughter and the dog.

0:48:260:48:29

The 9th of July 1996 is quite imprinted on me.

0:48:290:48:33

It was the first year I'd had my first child...

0:48:350:48:38

..but also, the 9th of July is my birthday.

0:48:410:48:44

So, I know from the moment we woke up in the morning,

0:48:440:48:48

to when we went to bed that night, he never left my side.

0:48:480:48:51

Levi and myself went for dinner that night,

0:48:520:48:55

and from there we went onto Rocky's nightclub, where he used to work.

0:48:550:49:00

And then we went home to bed.

0:49:000:49:02

Do you remember what day it was?

0:49:020:49:04

I want to say it was a Friday or Saturday.

0:49:070:49:09

But I'm not sure.

0:49:100:49:13

But it was definitely on my birthday,

0:49:130:49:14

and it was definitely the 9th of July.

0:49:140:49:16

So his partner says that they went out to the restaurant and the club,

0:49:210:49:26

on the weekend. Well, the 9th of July 1996 was a Tuesday.

0:49:260:49:32

The alibi is not quite as strong as it first appears.

0:49:330:49:37

The team turns to the science,

0:49:400:49:42

to see if it can help rule Bellfield out.

0:49:420:49:45

Although he's refused to give a DNA sample,

0:49:480:49:52

a number of his family members

0:49:520:49:53

have come forward to help the review by supplying THEIR DNA.

0:49:530:49:57

It's been analysed by Dr Georgina Meakin.

0:49:590:50:01

Members of Bellfield's family have provided DNA samples.

0:50:030:50:08

And from those I've been able to derive the profile

0:50:080:50:12

that is from Levi Bellfield,

0:50:120:50:15

and have been able to compare that to the profiles to the unknown DNA,

0:50:150:50:20

from the strip of blue towel that was examined, and of that,

0:50:200:50:24

there are three components that match components

0:50:240:50:27

in Levi Bellfield's profile.

0:50:270:50:29

That means he can't be excluded as having contributed to that mixture.

0:50:290:50:33

-But not Michael Stone.

-But not Michael Stone.

0:50:330:50:35

'When you determine the evidential weight

0:50:380:50:41

'of that potential contribution,'

0:50:410:50:43

it's a random match probability of just 1 in 30.

0:50:430:50:46

And this means that if you've got 30 people in a room,

0:50:460:50:49

one of them would be a potential contributor.

0:50:490:50:52

You can see that evidentially speaking,

0:50:520:50:54

it's not very strong evidence.

0:50:540:50:56

Georgina now moves on to the blood-covered lace,

0:50:580:51:01

used in the attacks,

0:51:010:51:03

and dropped at the scene by the offender.

0:51:030:51:05

She believes that an alternative forensic technique

0:51:060:51:10

could now reveal if the DNA of Stone, Bellfield,

0:51:100:51:13

or any other male was left on the exhibit.

0:51:130:51:16

If we were to retest it using a Y-STR profiling,

0:51:180:51:22

this is profiling that is aimed only at the Y chromosome,

0:51:220:51:26

ie, only examines male DNA, so that way we can...

0:51:260:51:30

straight away excluding all victim DNA that no longer clouds the issue.

0:51:300:51:34

We can just be straight away -

0:51:340:51:35

"What's the male DNA profile? It's this."

0:51:350:51:38

Only, the lace is missing.

0:51:380:51:40

-I beg your pardon.

-The lace is missing. It's gone.

0:51:400:51:43

So both the laboratory that did the examination on the lace,

0:51:460:51:49

and Kent Police have done an exhaustive search

0:51:490:51:52

of their exhibit store, and they have not found the lace.

0:51:520:51:55

The whole lace? Like, the lace, the bag and the exhibit label is gone?

0:51:550:51:58

No, they have the empty bag with the exhibit label in it, but no lace.

0:51:580:52:03

The Forensic Science Service are adamant that they returned an intact

0:52:050:52:09

length of lace to Kent Police on the 23rd of September 1998.

0:52:090:52:13

The Forensic Science Service say they sent an intact length of lace

0:52:170:52:21

in a bag to Kent Police.

0:52:210:52:23

But when Stone's legal team requested further tests,

0:52:260:52:29

what was sent back to the laboratory was an empty bag.

0:52:290:52:33

"With respect to the lace,

0:52:370:52:38

"we were expecting the remains of an almost complete lace.

0:52:380:52:41

"There is an empty exhibit bag

0:52:410:52:42

"bearing what appears to be the original CJA label for the lace,

0:52:420:52:45

"but no lace per se."

0:52:450:52:47

"In the absence of an intact length of lace,

0:52:480:52:51

"it was not possible for the commission to arrange for further tests."

0:52:510:52:54

Later, Kent Police said the lace hadn't been lost -

0:52:550:52:58

instead, exhaustive testing had left only strands.

0:52:580:53:02

Kent say the lab, it doesn't exist any more, and the lab says,

0:53:030:53:08

we gave it to a Kent Police officer.

0:53:080:53:09

And now the bag's empty.

0:53:090:53:11

You've got the worst crime in Kent,

0:53:110:53:13

and the principal exhibit goes missing.

0:53:130:53:16

And there are two different accounts of what happened.

0:53:160:53:19

This one lace could contain the key to who killed this family.

0:53:190:53:23

Michael Stone is now 20 years into a minimum 25-year sentence.

0:53:270:53:32

He could be eligible for parole in 2023.

0:53:340:53:38

He's still my boy, isn't he?

0:53:410:53:42

I used to go up and see him all the time,

0:53:440:53:48

but then he said it was too emotional for me to do it.

0:53:480:53:51

So I haven't seen him for...

0:53:510:53:53

..since he was in court that day.

0:53:540:53:56

-You haven't seen him since the convictions?

-No, I haven't.

0:53:570:54:00

You get choked up in here, don't you?

0:54:100:54:13

But if you dwell on it, then you're going to go down, you know?

0:54:160:54:20

I can't afford to do that.

0:54:210:54:22

I still have to live life.

0:54:240:54:26

The crime was horrible.

0:54:370:54:39

A mum and her two daughters.

0:54:400:54:42

Violence against a woman, violence against two young children...

0:54:450:54:48

..and the devastation felt by the Russell family

0:54:510:54:54

must have been immense.

0:54:540:54:56

-REPORTER:

-Michael Stone, a man with a violent personality disorder,

0:55:000:55:04

now a convicted killer.

0:55:040:55:06

Stone shouted out, "It wasn't me, Your Honour! I didn't do it."

0:55:060:55:10

Right, folks, well, we're reaching the end of our four days' considering...

0:55:130:55:17

The panel begins its summing up of the case review.

0:55:170:55:21

We've been incredibly privileged to have this amount of access

0:55:210:55:26

to this case.

0:55:260:55:28

Having all the evidence, having access to police reports,

0:55:280:55:33

scientific reports, scientific expertise, police expertise.

0:55:330:55:38

Because, of course, in the trial, as a jury, you won't get that much.

0:55:380:55:43

But that's why this process has been invaluable to me.

0:55:430:55:47

How do we feel about the evidence?

0:55:470:55:49

How do we feel about the case?

0:55:490:55:51

When I first started looking at the scientific evidence,

0:55:510:55:53

I guess I was shocked at the lack of it to Michael Stone.

0:55:530:55:56

And I thought that was because this was the mid-'90s, you know?

0:55:560:55:59

DNA technology was in its infancy.

0:55:590:56:01

But as we've gone through this case,

0:56:010:56:03

reviewing through the forensic science evidence that there is,

0:56:030:56:06

we end up not just with DNA evidence that DOESN'T point to Michael Stone,

0:56:060:56:11

but in some ways, points elsewhere.

0:56:110:56:13

There's no ID against Stone.

0:56:150:56:17

There is no forensic against Stone,

0:56:170:56:20

I'm not saying he's not a dangerous man,

0:56:200:56:22

and I'm not saying the best place for him ISN'T locked up,

0:56:220:56:25

but I'm just saying, to me,

0:56:250:56:28

I don't think there's enough evidence beyond reasonable doubt

0:56:280:56:31

to convict him.

0:56:310:56:33

This case was summed up to the jury on the basis that you had to accept

0:56:340:56:42

Daley's evidence.

0:56:420:56:44

Only then could you convict.

0:56:440:56:46

And for me, I don't accept Daley's evidence.

0:56:460:56:50

Is Stone innocent or guilty?

0:56:500:56:54

I can't talk in terms of innocence,

0:56:540:56:57

but I can talk in terms of,

0:56:570:57:00

if I was asked - am I sure? My answer would be no.

0:57:000:57:05

You know, your heart goes out to any victims of crime where, suddenly,

0:57:050:57:10

a conviction against the person

0:57:100:57:11

who is said to have killed their loved one unravels.

0:57:110:57:14

But the truth is, also,

0:57:140:57:16

they really want the right person to be in prison.

0:57:160:57:19

Ultimately, if you find a conviction is unsatisfactory 30 years on,

0:57:190:57:25

40 years on, you've got a right in law, and a moral right,

0:57:250:57:29

to put it before the authorities.

0:57:290:57:31

Michael Stone has had two trials, and he's had several failed appeals.

0:57:370:57:43

But then, I think it is worth, if there are proper grounds,

0:57:430:57:47

to go back, and relook at a case and a verdict.

0:57:470:57:51

That has to be right, if the ultimate aim is justice.

0:57:510:57:55

And on that note, we'll stop now. Thank you.

0:57:560:57:58

'I don't think we'll ever have

0:58:010:58:03

'a completely satisfactory conclusion to this.

0:58:030:58:07

'Unless that golden nugget comes forward of information

0:58:070:58:13

'or evidence'

0:58:130:58:15

to either support it being Michael Stone,

0:58:150:58:17

or to support it being someone else.

0:58:170:58:19

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