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In 2014 there were over half a million criminal | 0:00:02 | 0:00:04 | |
prosecutions in England and Wales. | 0:00:04 | 0:00:06 | |
Each one was prosecuted, not by the police, | 0:00:06 | 0:00:08 | |
but by the lawyers of the Crown Prosecution Service. | 0:00:08 | 0:00:12 | |
My job is about applying the law to other people's lives, | 0:00:12 | 0:00:17 | |
and hopefully for the public good. | 0:00:17 | 0:00:19 | |
The defendant is found locked inside the house | 0:00:20 | 0:00:23 | |
with his mother dead downstairs. | 0:00:23 | 0:00:26 | |
In every serious criminal case, the Crown Prosecution Service | 0:00:26 | 0:00:30 | |
must decide who to charge and what to charge them with. | 0:00:30 | 0:00:34 | |
I think that this will come down to, I suppose, is he bad or is he mad? | 0:00:34 | 0:00:38 | |
Sometimes the difficult decisions are unpopular decisions, | 0:00:38 | 0:00:42 | |
but they are the right decisions. | 0:00:42 | 0:00:44 | |
It's their job to build the case and battle to secure a conviction. | 0:00:44 | 0:00:49 | |
All the defence have to do is just pick at things. | 0:00:49 | 0:00:52 | |
They just go like that, | 0:00:52 | 0:00:53 | |
and say "Well, you're not right about that." | 0:00:53 | 0:00:55 | |
Now, for the very first time, the Crown Prosecution Service has let | 0:00:55 | 0:00:59 | |
cameras in to film this unseen world between the police and the courts. | 0:00:59 | 0:01:04 | |
These are real people. They're real people's lives | 0:01:04 | 0:01:06 | |
and real emotions involved. | 0:01:06 | 0:01:08 | |
We may have our suspicions, but if the evidence isn't there, | 0:01:08 | 0:01:11 | |
the evidence isn't there. | 0:01:11 | 0:01:12 | |
For them it's evidence. | 0:01:12 | 0:01:15 | |
It's my life. | 0:01:15 | 0:01:17 | |
This programme contains some strong language. | 0:01:17 | 0:01:20 | |
This programme contains some scenes which some viewers may find upsetting | 0:01:20 | 0:01:24 | |
Cheshire, the Alderley Edge Bypass. | 0:01:24 | 0:01:27 | |
September the 16th 2013, 8.15am. | 0:01:28 | 0:01:32 | |
A mother taking her children to school | 0:01:34 | 0:01:36 | |
is involved in a collision that leads to a road traffic fatality. | 0:01:36 | 0:01:40 | |
Mr Maan, the driver of a red Porsche, is arrested and bailed. | 0:01:41 | 0:01:45 | |
In February 2014, after a six month investigation, the police file | 0:01:47 | 0:01:52 | |
reaches the Crown Prosecution Service. | 0:01:52 | 0:01:54 | |
Mersey Cheshire is one of 13 areas of the CPS. | 0:01:57 | 0:02:00 | |
A staff of 220 are responsible for prosecuting | 0:02:01 | 0:02:03 | |
over 56,000 cases every year. | 0:02:03 | 0:02:06 | |
For you, Helen. | 0:02:08 | 0:02:10 | |
Thank you. | 0:02:10 | 0:02:12 | |
The Maan case lands on the desk of Gary Simpson. | 0:02:12 | 0:02:15 | |
He must review the evidence | 0:02:15 | 0:02:17 | |
and decide whether Mr Maan should be prosecuted. | 0:02:17 | 0:02:20 | |
Mr Maan was driving his Porsche motor vehicle, and he left his lane, | 0:02:20 | 0:02:25 | |
travelled into the opposite carriageway, | 0:02:25 | 0:02:27 | |
where he came into collision with a Ford Focus vehicle. | 0:02:27 | 0:02:30 | |
In effect, Mr Maan has travelled in this direction, | 0:02:30 | 0:02:34 | |
and rather than continue around the bend, | 0:02:34 | 0:02:36 | |
has travelled into the path of Mrs Morrissey and her Ford Focus. | 0:02:36 | 0:02:41 | |
You'll see the impact is clearly head on. | 0:02:41 | 0:02:45 | |
The rear seat passenger was her son, Flynn Morrissey. | 0:02:45 | 0:02:49 | |
He sustained fatal injuries and subsequently died. | 0:02:49 | 0:02:52 | |
A young life taken away on the way to school. | 0:02:53 | 0:02:57 | |
Part of the evidence is the video interview the police conducted | 0:02:58 | 0:03:01 | |
with Flynn Morrissey's mother, Nicky, | 0:03:01 | 0:03:04 | |
ten days after her 11-year-old son's death. | 0:03:04 | 0:03:07 | |
I can't imagine how I'm going to go on... | 0:03:08 | 0:03:12 | |
..with life... | 0:03:15 | 0:03:17 | |
..but I realise I do have a responsibility still. | 0:03:19 | 0:03:24 | |
I can't just go off and kill myself... | 0:03:24 | 0:03:28 | |
which I thought I would do. | 0:03:28 | 0:03:30 | |
Cos I just want to be with Flynn. | 0:03:35 | 0:03:38 | |
All driving fatality cases must be | 0:03:39 | 0:03:41 | |
overseen by a Deputy Chief Crown Prosecutor. | 0:03:41 | 0:03:45 | |
In the Mersey Cheshire region that is Alison Mutch. | 0:03:45 | 0:03:48 | |
I think that the road traffic cases are probably the | 0:03:48 | 0:03:51 | |
most difficult cases we deal with. | 0:03:51 | 0:03:54 | |
They're always quite emotive, | 0:03:54 | 0:03:55 | |
and sometimes they're so finely balanced. | 0:03:55 | 0:03:59 | |
They are ones that you have to spend a lot of time thinking about | 0:03:59 | 0:04:02 | |
and just weighing up all of the evidence. | 0:04:02 | 0:04:05 | |
Mr Maan explained in a lengthy interview that he was | 0:04:05 | 0:04:08 | |
familiar with the use of the car. | 0:04:08 | 0:04:10 | |
He was travelling to work at the time. | 0:04:10 | 0:04:12 | |
He talked about the road surface being wet | 0:04:12 | 0:04:15 | |
and there being heavy rain. | 0:04:15 | 0:04:17 | |
He says that as he was travelling along the road, | 0:04:17 | 0:04:20 | |
he approached the bend, | 0:04:20 | 0:04:21 | |
and for no apparent reason, as far as he could see, | 0:04:21 | 0:04:24 | |
his vehicle lost control and he travelled into the carriageway. | 0:04:24 | 0:04:28 | |
Mr Maan had various electronic devices in his car. | 0:04:28 | 0:04:32 | |
They were all examined by the police | 0:04:32 | 0:04:34 | |
and there is no evidence to show that he was using his phone or any | 0:04:34 | 0:04:38 | |
other electronic device at the time he was travelling along the road. | 0:04:38 | 0:04:42 | |
Clearly for some reason he has lost control of his vehicle | 0:04:42 | 0:04:45 | |
when nobody else on that stretch of road did. | 0:04:45 | 0:04:48 | |
We've got lots of different charges we can consider. | 0:04:52 | 0:04:55 | |
Death by dangerous driving | 0:04:55 | 0:04:56 | |
and death by careless driving are particularly relevant in this case. | 0:04:56 | 0:05:00 | |
Now, for death by dangerous we have to show that the driving fell | 0:05:02 | 0:05:05 | |
far below the standard of an ordinary driver. | 0:05:05 | 0:05:09 | |
For death by careless we have to show it fell below. | 0:05:09 | 0:05:12 | |
So it's that word "far" that's the difference between the two. | 0:05:12 | 0:05:16 | |
Sometimes it's very easy - there's alcohol involved, | 0:05:16 | 0:05:19 | |
somebody is on their mobile telephone, | 0:05:19 | 0:05:22 | |
they're driving at very high speeds, | 0:05:22 | 0:05:24 | |
and it clearly is dangerous. | 0:05:24 | 0:05:27 | |
But other cases, | 0:05:27 | 0:05:28 | |
whilst the consequences of the driving are absolutely catastrophic, | 0:05:28 | 0:05:33 | |
the actual piece of driving falls below, but doesn't fall far below, | 0:05:33 | 0:05:37 | |
and that's quite a significant change, | 0:05:37 | 0:05:39 | |
because the maximum sentence is different. | 0:05:39 | 0:05:42 | |
But also, if we get it wrong we're not doing the right thing | 0:05:42 | 0:05:45 | |
for the family of the deceased. | 0:05:45 | 0:05:49 | |
Right, shoes are in the kitchen. Go on. | 0:05:52 | 0:05:56 | |
Claire Lindley has been a barrister in the CPS for over 25 years. | 0:05:56 | 0:06:00 | |
Bye-bye, darling. Have a good day. | 0:06:00 | 0:06:02 | |
She is now the Chief Crown Prosecutor of Mersey Cheshire. | 0:06:02 | 0:06:05 | |
I don't mind the commute because it's quite good thinking time. | 0:06:05 | 0:06:09 | |
Apart from the traffic, which is horrendous some days, | 0:06:09 | 0:06:12 | |
and of course I have to kind of land at work | 0:06:12 | 0:06:15 | |
looking like I'm in control, | 0:06:15 | 0:06:18 | |
when actually I just sometimes think | 0:06:18 | 0:06:20 | |
I feel like swearing cos I've been stuck on the M6 for half an hour. | 0:06:20 | 0:06:24 | |
There's a lot of decisions to take in every single case. | 0:06:27 | 0:06:31 | |
There's the decision whether to charge, you've to decide what | 0:06:31 | 0:06:34 | |
to charge them with, which sounds straightforward and isn't. | 0:06:34 | 0:06:38 | |
And actually, making decisions is quite a stressful thing, | 0:06:39 | 0:06:42 | |
because the decisions you are making... | 0:06:42 | 0:06:46 | |
..they affect people's lives. | 0:06:48 | 0:06:50 | |
They might make a difference as to | 0:06:50 | 0:06:52 | |
whether somebody goes to prison or not, | 0:06:52 | 0:06:55 | |
whether someone is convicted or acquitted, | 0:06:55 | 0:06:58 | |
whether a victim feels that justice has been done. | 0:06:58 | 0:07:01 | |
And that, I think, is quite stressful. | 0:07:02 | 0:07:05 | |
You've to be really resilient. | 0:07:05 | 0:07:07 | |
You can get so emotionally involved in cases that some cases | 0:07:07 | 0:07:11 | |
are kind of indelibly marked on your heart, to be honest. | 0:07:11 | 0:07:15 | |
Gary is currently responsible for 90 different ongoing cases. | 0:07:19 | 0:07:23 | |
Before he comes to a charging decision in the Maan case, | 0:07:23 | 0:07:26 | |
he will have to review the transcript of Mr Maan's | 0:07:26 | 0:07:29 | |
police interview, as well as the statements of over 20 witnesses | 0:07:29 | 0:07:33 | |
and the report of the police collision expert. | 0:07:33 | 0:07:36 | |
In a driving fatality case, the decision is expected to take | 0:07:37 | 0:07:40 | |
about eight working hours, | 0:07:40 | 0:07:41 | |
but some charging decisions take much longer. | 0:07:41 | 0:07:45 | |
Maria Corr is a lawyer in the Complex Casework Unit. | 0:07:46 | 0:07:50 | |
She's been involved in an ongoing police case for the last six months. | 0:07:50 | 0:07:53 | |
It concerns an organized criminal gang who | 0:07:53 | 0:07:56 | |
specialise in blowing up cash machines. | 0:07:56 | 0:07:58 | |
This is a DVD compilation concerning the different attacks on the banks. | 0:07:58 | 0:08:05 | |
It shows just what they do | 0:08:05 | 0:08:06 | |
and it shows their level of prof... | 0:08:06 | 0:08:09 | |
Well, their level of organization. | 0:08:09 | 0:08:11 | |
That's Barclays in Loughborough. | 0:08:13 | 0:08:16 | |
You can see just exactly how he's dressed, | 0:08:16 | 0:08:19 | |
that you just wouldn't get any identification here. | 0:08:19 | 0:08:22 | |
And what we'll see then is the second offender coming across here. | 0:08:22 | 0:08:26 | |
Now see, he's coming there. | 0:08:27 | 0:08:30 | |
And what he's got in there are the oxyacetylene gas canisters | 0:08:30 | 0:08:33 | |
and that gas has to be pumped into the ATM machine. | 0:08:33 | 0:08:38 | |
You then need to detonate the gas, the gas build up. | 0:08:38 | 0:08:42 | |
The alarm will be going now. They know they've got minutes to | 0:08:49 | 0:08:53 | |
get in to the bank to get the money. | 0:08:53 | 0:08:55 | |
Now see the rest of the gang coming? | 0:08:55 | 0:08:58 | |
They are armed with, you can see, big crow bars, angle grinders, | 0:08:58 | 0:09:02 | |
and they need to get into the bank. | 0:09:02 | 0:09:04 | |
Now, this is within seconds. | 0:09:04 | 0:09:06 | |
See those cassettes? They're the cash inside the machine. | 0:09:08 | 0:09:11 | |
But on different events, we've got different levels of CCTV. | 0:09:12 | 0:09:16 | |
What we say on all the 28 attacks, this is what they attempted to do. | 0:09:18 | 0:09:22 | |
Not successful, probably, in half of them. | 0:09:25 | 0:09:27 | |
But the half they got away with, | 0:09:27 | 0:09:28 | |
we're talking probably over half a million pounds worth of cash. | 0:09:28 | 0:09:32 | |
But the difficulty in this case is, you can see, | 0:09:32 | 0:09:34 | |
although we have 28 sets of CCTV, | 0:09:34 | 0:09:37 | |
there is no way to identify anybody on that CCTV footage. | 0:09:37 | 0:09:42 | |
What they'll say is, "It wasn't me who did that." | 0:09:42 | 0:09:46 | |
Then we'll have to show is, "Yes, it was you." | 0:09:46 | 0:09:49 | |
In the Maan case, Gary has made his decision. | 0:09:55 | 0:09:58 | |
Sometimes I think members of the public think that we just | 0:09:58 | 0:10:02 | |
make decisions off the top of our head. | 0:10:02 | 0:10:04 | |
Well, it's actually a lot more structured than that. | 0:10:04 | 0:10:07 | |
So what we have is the code, which sets out a test | 0:10:07 | 0:10:12 | |
and the test has two limbs to it. | 0:10:12 | 0:10:16 | |
And what we must do is firstly decide | 0:10:16 | 0:10:18 | |
if there is enough evidence to prosecute somebody. | 0:10:18 | 0:10:21 | |
It's not the same test that the jury then goes on to use | 0:10:21 | 0:10:26 | |
because the jury has got to decide beyond reasonable doubt | 0:10:26 | 0:10:30 | |
that the defendant is guilty. | 0:10:30 | 0:10:32 | |
So we are trying to work out whether it's realistically possible | 0:10:32 | 0:10:37 | |
that a jury will decide beyond reasonable doubt that he is guilty. | 0:10:37 | 0:10:42 | |
And if so, we must decide whether it's in the public interest | 0:10:42 | 0:10:46 | |
to prosecute, and if so, what shall we charge him with? | 0:10:46 | 0:10:50 | |
Gary plans to charge Mr Maan | 0:10:50 | 0:10:52 | |
with the lesser offence of causing death by careless driving. | 0:10:52 | 0:10:56 | |
The complexity of driving fatality cases means such decisions | 0:10:56 | 0:11:00 | |
have to be approved by at least the Deputy Chief Crown Prosecutor. | 0:11:00 | 0:11:04 | |
Alison is meeting Geoff Fryar, head of the Crown Court Unit, | 0:11:04 | 0:11:08 | |
to finalise Gary's decision. | 0:11:08 | 0:11:11 | |
This is on that bypass, | 0:11:11 | 0:11:12 | |
and it's single carriageway in either direction. | 0:11:12 | 0:11:17 | |
The suspect is in car. | 0:11:17 | 0:11:18 | |
No suggestion of going in excess speed. | 0:11:18 | 0:11:20 | |
It's not a great day weather-wise. | 0:11:20 | 0:11:22 | |
Very wet, etc, but nobody else seems to be having problems with | 0:11:22 | 0:11:25 | |
the road conditions as such. | 0:11:25 | 0:11:27 | |
And the road comes to this bend, he's just carried on | 0:11:29 | 0:11:34 | |
and hit oncoming car. | 0:11:34 | 0:11:37 | |
No mechanical failure? | 0:11:37 | 0:11:39 | |
No mechanical failure. | 0:11:39 | 0:11:41 | |
He's not on his phone, | 0:11:41 | 0:11:43 | |
there's no evidence of alcohol. | 0:11:43 | 0:11:45 | |
It's just quite strange. | 0:11:45 | 0:11:48 | |
I mean, he says in interview the car gave way | 0:11:48 | 0:11:50 | |
and he doesn't know what happened and he's sorry. | 0:11:50 | 0:11:54 | |
But there's nothing to suggest anything evidential. | 0:11:54 | 0:11:57 | |
I mean, Gary thinks it's death by careless, | 0:11:57 | 0:12:00 | |
and I think that's probably the right charge. | 0:12:00 | 0:12:02 | |
Yeah. I think that's right. That was going through my mind, | 0:12:02 | 0:12:04 | |
it was careless rather than dangerous | 0:12:04 | 0:12:06 | |
if he's just left the road for a short period, | 0:12:06 | 0:12:09 | |
albeit tragic consequences. | 0:12:09 | 0:12:10 | |
But we would struggle to prove the driving was far below. | 0:12:10 | 0:12:14 | |
You have to look at the type of driving. | 0:12:16 | 0:12:18 | |
And it's really important that we look at the evidence. | 0:12:18 | 0:12:22 | |
But we can't charge death by dangerous | 0:12:23 | 0:12:25 | |
if there isn't enough evidence to charge it, | 0:12:25 | 0:12:28 | |
because that would just be wrong. | 0:12:28 | 0:12:30 | |
Mr Maan will now be charged. | 0:12:31 | 0:12:34 | |
The prosecution evidence will be sent to his defence team | 0:12:34 | 0:12:36 | |
and they will be given time to perform their own investigations. | 0:12:36 | 0:12:40 | |
The trial is unlikely to take place for at least another nine months. | 0:12:42 | 0:12:46 | |
To think about what happened all day, every day, would just be hell. | 0:12:48 | 0:12:54 | |
Flynn was 11. | 0:12:55 | 0:12:58 | |
It's a big difference to my commitment. | 0:12:58 | 0:13:01 | |
One day, you're on the school run and then everything changes. | 0:13:01 | 0:13:07 | |
And I found while I was looking into how you make typewriters work | 0:13:08 | 0:13:14 | |
and what you do to clean them, | 0:13:14 | 0:13:17 | |
I wasn't dwelling on feelings that I didn't want. | 0:13:17 | 0:13:23 | |
And it's a good, you know, distraction. | 0:13:23 | 0:13:27 | |
There's all numbers that are just appearing as I'm cleaning. | 0:13:28 | 0:13:32 | |
All coming back to life. | 0:13:33 | 0:13:34 | |
That's Flynn's trophy that he won. | 0:13:36 | 0:13:39 | |
He had the cool role of playing Mr Toad of Toad Hall. | 0:13:39 | 0:13:45 | |
He came home and put that soldier guy in it. | 0:13:45 | 0:13:48 | |
So I haven't got the heart to take it out | 0:13:48 | 0:13:51 | |
and the school have said that I can keep the trophy. | 0:13:51 | 0:13:54 | |
I was so proud. | 0:13:58 | 0:14:01 | |
Ah, such a good day. | 0:14:01 | 0:14:04 | |
The ATM burglaries have generated thousands of pieces of evidence. | 0:14:09 | 0:14:13 | |
The most crucial come from burglary number 28 | 0:14:14 | 0:14:17 | |
at the Barclays in Warrington. | 0:14:17 | 0:14:19 | |
This one is interesting in once they do blow it up, they're in and out. | 0:14:21 | 0:14:27 | |
I don't even know if it's under a minute or two. | 0:14:27 | 0:14:30 | |
Here we go. | 0:14:30 | 0:14:32 | |
Crrr! | 0:14:32 | 0:14:34 | |
And then what they don't know is, in one of the cassette in the money | 0:14:34 | 0:14:37 | |
is this little tracker device that Barclays Bank have put in. | 0:14:37 | 0:14:40 | |
20 minutes after leaving the bank, the tracker came to a halt | 0:14:40 | 0:14:44 | |
in Huyton, Liverpool, at the Lodge Sandy Meadow. | 0:14:44 | 0:14:48 | |
Home to Kurt Beddoes. | 0:14:48 | 0:14:50 | |
The property had its own security cameras | 0:14:50 | 0:14:52 | |
and Maria now has a copy of that footage. | 0:14:52 | 0:14:56 | |
Here we go, car driving in. | 0:14:56 | 0:14:58 | |
This is Ellis, I can tell that straightaway. See his hairline? | 0:15:01 | 0:15:06 | |
Very distinctive headline there and little pointy features. | 0:15:06 | 0:15:09 | |
And there's Bushell. | 0:15:09 | 0:15:11 | |
You see? He's slightly chubbier than the others. | 0:15:11 | 0:15:13 | |
What they don't realise is that the police are on their way. | 0:15:13 | 0:15:15 | |
Then I think the police then should arrive at about 6:01. | 0:15:15 | 0:15:20 | |
When the police arrive, | 0:15:21 | 0:15:24 | |
they all make good their escape from the back. | 0:15:24 | 0:15:27 | |
This house then backs out onto like a forest type area. | 0:15:27 | 0:15:30 | |
So when they run away, it's pitch-black. | 0:15:30 | 0:15:34 | |
The officers had no chance, I think, once they left the house, | 0:15:34 | 0:15:37 | |
to catch them. | 0:15:37 | 0:15:38 | |
From the address, the police recovered £97,000. | 0:15:38 | 0:15:44 | |
They also found the recordings from the home security cameras. | 0:15:44 | 0:15:48 | |
Within two weeks, | 0:15:48 | 0:15:49 | |
they had rounded up six people they believed to be part of the gang. | 0:15:49 | 0:15:52 | |
We now have brilliant CCTV footage of the gang and what they do. | 0:15:52 | 0:15:57 | |
So, for example, one day we have Mr Beddoes going out | 0:15:57 | 0:16:01 | |
and coming back with the big piping, the white piping, | 0:16:01 | 0:16:04 | |
a roll of fuse wire going into the house, | 0:16:04 | 0:16:06 | |
lovely four-bed paying cash £1,500 a month, beautiful Audi vehicles. | 0:16:06 | 0:16:11 | |
They are clearly living the lifestyle funded by this | 0:16:11 | 0:16:15 | |
criminality and unfortunately, they have been very successful up | 0:16:15 | 0:16:18 | |
until they have been thankfully now caught. | 0:16:18 | 0:16:22 | |
The challenge for Maria is to decide upon an existing charge | 0:16:22 | 0:16:26 | |
that can fit this brand-new crime. | 0:16:26 | 0:16:28 | |
What you're trying to do is get a charge that matches | 0:16:28 | 0:16:31 | |
the offending, which gives the court the right powers of sentence, | 0:16:31 | 0:16:39 | |
which isn't over the top, as in unfair for the defendant, | 0:16:39 | 0:16:45 | |
but which reflects the gravity for the victim. | 0:16:45 | 0:16:49 | |
There's all sorts of offences on the statute book. | 0:16:49 | 0:16:52 | |
Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and this is where the law books then | 0:16:52 | 0:16:55 | |
come in, because we need to research... | 0:16:55 | 0:16:57 | |
particularly things like explosives we're not particularly au fait with | 0:16:57 | 0:17:01 | |
because fortunately, we don't have many of. | 0:17:01 | 0:17:03 | |
So the type of charge and the level of charge can be quite tricky. | 0:17:03 | 0:17:08 | |
I notice that in the Attorney General's report | 0:17:08 | 0:17:12 | |
that this offending had only really taken place | 0:17:12 | 0:17:16 | |
in Europe before now. | 0:17:16 | 0:17:18 | |
So this is actually the first case of its type, is it? | 0:17:18 | 0:17:20 | |
It was seen on the Continent beforehand, this specific MO | 0:17:20 | 0:17:23 | |
-and, er... -So what have you charged them with, though? | 0:17:23 | 0:17:26 | |
What I've picked is the Explosive Substances Act | 0:17:26 | 0:17:29 | |
of 1883, I think it is. | 0:17:29 | 0:17:31 | |
Erm, and that, to me, fits the bill. | 0:17:31 | 0:17:34 | |
It's the causing of an explosion by any means. That, for example, | 0:17:34 | 0:17:38 | |
is gunpowder or whatever, but this, for me, is | 0:17:38 | 0:17:41 | |
the combination of the oxyacetylene and causing that explosion. | 0:17:41 | 0:17:45 | |
Burglary commercial premises, ten years statutory maximum. | 0:17:45 | 0:17:49 | |
My view is that that just didn't reflect the criminality here. | 0:17:49 | 0:17:52 | |
I think the danger to the public, the causing the explosions, | 0:17:52 | 0:17:56 | |
the level of professionalism, | 0:17:56 | 0:17:58 | |
they should be looking at more than ten years, in my humble view. | 0:17:58 | 0:18:00 | |
They are carrying the canisters in the vehicle. | 0:18:00 | 0:18:03 | |
They're travelling at 190mph. | 0:18:03 | 0:18:05 | |
They are involved in police chases. | 0:18:05 | 0:18:07 | |
The risk to life and limb just to steal money, | 0:18:07 | 0:18:11 | |
from my point of view, puts them at a level with armed robbery. | 0:18:11 | 0:18:14 | |
You know, double-figure sentences. | 0:18:14 | 0:18:16 | |
If there is a conviction, the trial judge will only be able to | 0:18:19 | 0:18:23 | |
sentence within guidelines set according to the charge. | 0:18:23 | 0:18:26 | |
Alison's attending a scrutiny panel at CPS headquarters, | 0:18:28 | 0:18:32 | |
where volunteer community members share their views | 0:18:32 | 0:18:35 | |
on completed cases. | 0:18:35 | 0:18:36 | |
It's hosted by the Director of Public Prosecutions, | 0:18:36 | 0:18:39 | |
Alison Saunders. | 0:18:39 | 0:18:41 | |
I mean, I'm clear - as is everybody, which is why we're here - | 0:18:41 | 0:18:43 | |
that religiously aggravated crime is something that is, you know, | 0:18:43 | 0:18:47 | |
completely insidious. | 0:18:47 | 0:18:48 | |
Any hate crime is bad so we want to make sure we've got our policies | 0:18:48 | 0:18:52 | |
right, that we are implementing them and playing our part in this. | 0:18:52 | 0:18:55 | |
The case today related to postings on a Russian-based website, | 0:18:55 | 0:19:00 | |
but it is about rightwing extremism. | 0:19:00 | 0:19:05 | |
Various postings were made by the person believed to be the suspect | 0:19:05 | 0:19:09 | |
and he was arrested under Section 19 of the Public Order Act. | 0:19:09 | 0:19:13 | |
So for an incitement to hatred offence. | 0:19:13 | 0:19:16 | |
He said that he didn't see that there was anything wrong with | 0:19:16 | 0:19:19 | |
what he'd posted on the website | 0:19:19 | 0:19:21 | |
because it was a site for like-minded people. | 0:19:21 | 0:19:23 | |
We got the papers, | 0:19:23 | 0:19:25 | |
had a look at them and the reviewing lawyer concluded that | 0:19:25 | 0:19:28 | |
the offence of incitement wasn't made out. | 0:19:28 | 0:19:30 | |
And the offence he was charged with was | 0:19:30 | 0:19:33 | |
Section 5 of the Public Order Act. | 0:19:33 | 0:19:35 | |
He pleaded guilty and received a fine of £65, | 0:19:35 | 0:19:38 | |
uplifted by £20 for the aggravating element. | 0:19:38 | 0:19:42 | |
I thought the sentence for this was really... | 0:19:42 | 0:19:45 | |
I thought it was offensive. | 0:19:45 | 0:19:47 | |
To fine someone £65 | 0:19:47 | 0:19:49 | |
and to uplift it by £20, I thought was really offensive. | 0:19:49 | 0:19:53 | |
It was clearly violent language | 0:19:53 | 0:19:57 | |
but it's been charged right at the lowest end of the scale. | 0:19:57 | 0:20:00 | |
The reading of the comments as not containing incitement or | 0:20:00 | 0:20:03 | |
threats is just incomprehensible. | 0:20:03 | 0:20:05 | |
And the fact that it was put on a forum of ostensibly like-minded | 0:20:05 | 0:20:09 | |
people actually increases the likelihood of incitement, right? | 0:20:09 | 0:20:14 | |
Because this is the kind of forum where people of an extremist | 0:20:14 | 0:20:17 | |
mind-set wind each other up to do this kind of thing. | 0:20:17 | 0:20:19 | |
"Kick them right back into the sea. | 0:20:19 | 0:20:21 | |
"I don't want no effing n***** living next door to me." | 0:20:21 | 0:20:25 | |
So it's just encouraging people. | 0:20:25 | 0:20:26 | |
How is that is not explained that it's threatening is beyond me. | 0:20:26 | 0:20:30 | |
One of the things we need to do is explain how we | 0:20:30 | 0:20:33 | |
make our decisions, why we make our decisions, the sort of factors | 0:20:33 | 0:20:36 | |
we take into account , which may not always be apparent. | 0:20:36 | 0:20:40 | |
And it's really important that people understand - | 0:20:40 | 0:20:42 | |
we don't just make them in a vacuum. | 0:20:42 | 0:20:44 | |
We balance all sorts of different things, | 0:20:44 | 0:20:46 | |
so you do have the human rights issues, you do have right to free | 0:20:46 | 0:20:49 | |
speech, and we've got to balance all of those up, as well as making sure | 0:20:49 | 0:20:53 | |
the evidence is there in the first place, which is the fundamental bit. | 0:20:53 | 0:20:56 | |
Is there evidence or not? | 0:20:56 | 0:20:57 | |
The particular issue | 0:20:57 | 0:20:58 | |
and the particular difficulty was round what his intent was. | 0:20:58 | 0:21:02 | |
And whether he intended to stir up religious hatred. | 0:21:02 | 0:21:07 | |
I think that it's the lack of immediacy that will have | 0:21:07 | 0:21:10 | |
played upon her thinking when she was writing this advice. | 0:21:10 | 0:21:13 | |
He wasn't saying, "Let's all go and meet up at the park and go | 0:21:13 | 0:21:17 | |
"and beat people up, etc, in the next half an hour." | 0:21:17 | 0:21:20 | |
These were comments being made. | 0:21:20 | 0:21:22 | |
There was no timeframe placed upon them. | 0:21:22 | 0:21:25 | |
That is very important in these types of cases | 0:21:25 | 0:21:28 | |
because we are governed by the policies and procedures | 0:21:28 | 0:21:30 | |
and the case law which we have to function under. | 0:21:30 | 0:21:33 | |
I've just been bunny shopping. | 0:21:36 | 0:21:38 | |
It's, erm, been a bit too quiet around here | 0:21:40 | 0:21:44 | |
so this is great excitement. | 0:21:44 | 0:21:47 | |
It's now over 11 months | 0:21:48 | 0:21:50 | |
since the death of the youngest of Nicky's three sons, Flynn. | 0:21:50 | 0:21:53 | |
Despite Mr Maan being charged with causing death by careless driving, | 0:21:53 | 0:21:57 | |
no trial date has yet been set. | 0:21:57 | 0:22:00 | |
So Nick has two children and I have my three boys and our families | 0:22:00 | 0:22:05 | |
came together last year and, yeah, it was a pretty lovely life. | 0:22:05 | 0:22:11 | |
You can see their little ears, Dyl. Can you manage them? | 0:22:11 | 0:22:16 | |
Yeah. | 0:22:16 | 0:22:17 | |
'But on that day something happened and it changed my life forever, | 0:22:17 | 0:22:22 | |
'my family's life forever' | 0:22:22 | 0:22:25 | |
and it took Flynn's life. | 0:22:25 | 0:22:27 | |
And I want to know why. | 0:22:29 | 0:22:30 | |
We're going to put them in the greenhouse, Dyl. | 0:22:32 | 0:22:35 | |
'When all the bodies meet to decide when the trial is, | 0:22:35 | 0:22:39 | |
'it will be 14 months after the accident.' | 0:22:39 | 0:22:43 | |
That is when they're going to set a day. | 0:22:43 | 0:22:45 | |
Not the trial, just talk about a day. | 0:22:45 | 0:22:48 | |
So the trial may be set for the following year. | 0:22:50 | 0:22:54 | |
I don't understand why we can't have closure before. | 0:22:55 | 0:22:59 | |
To try and speed up the case, Gary is entering it | 0:23:01 | 0:23:04 | |
into an early guilty plea scheme. | 0:23:04 | 0:23:07 | |
We've had no indication from the defendant in interview or | 0:23:07 | 0:23:11 | |
through his solicitor that he intends to plead guilty. | 0:23:11 | 0:23:14 | |
But the evidence would clearly suggest that the manner | 0:23:14 | 0:23:16 | |
of his driving was careless. | 0:23:16 | 0:23:18 | |
The idea with an early guilty plea, quite simply, is to put | 0:23:18 | 0:23:22 | |
the defence on the spot. | 0:23:22 | 0:23:23 | |
If the defendant doesn't want to plead guilty, he doesn't have to, | 0:23:23 | 0:23:26 | |
he can bring the case out of the scheme. | 0:23:26 | 0:23:30 | |
But the maximum credit comes by pleading guilty at the first | 0:23:30 | 0:23:33 | |
opportunity. | 0:23:33 | 0:23:34 | |
If the defendant pleads guilty now, saving the need for a trial, | 0:23:34 | 0:23:38 | |
and for any witnesses to give evidence, | 0:23:38 | 0:23:41 | |
he'll be rewarded with a discount to his sentence of a third. | 0:23:41 | 0:23:44 | |
What we're trying to do is make sure that those cases | 0:23:45 | 0:23:48 | |
that are going to be guilty pleas are in and out of the system | 0:23:48 | 0:23:52 | |
very quickly because they're much easier to deal with. | 0:23:52 | 0:23:55 | |
It means that the punishment can be also much more | 0:23:55 | 0:23:57 | |
proximate to the offending, which has more impact. | 0:23:57 | 0:24:00 | |
But what we can't control, of course, | 0:24:00 | 0:24:03 | |
is what the defence want to do. | 0:24:03 | 0:24:06 | |
So if they want to put us to proof about everything, | 0:24:06 | 0:24:10 | |
we have to answer that. And that means that the timescale's extend. | 0:24:10 | 0:24:13 | |
Mr Maan will be given two weeks to decide | 0:24:14 | 0:24:17 | |
whether he wants to make an early guilty plea. | 0:24:17 | 0:24:20 | |
So 15 discs will be in relation to 15 scenes of the CSI | 0:24:20 | 0:24:24 | |
photos at this stage. | 0:24:24 | 0:24:25 | |
And each disc, each scene will have its own disc. | 0:24:25 | 0:24:28 | |
In an attempt to avoid a complicated and expensive trial, | 0:24:28 | 0:24:32 | |
Maria has also offered the defendants in the ATM case | 0:24:32 | 0:24:35 | |
early guilty pleas. | 0:24:35 | 0:24:37 | |
We tried to put this into the early guilty plea scheme. | 0:24:37 | 0:24:40 | |
Er, no-one was having it. | 0:24:40 | 0:24:42 | |
And none of the defence would agree to that happening. | 0:24:42 | 0:24:45 | |
Unable to prove the identity of the perpetrators through the banks' | 0:24:45 | 0:24:49 | |
CCTV, Maria is going to try to prove to a jury that the defendants were | 0:24:49 | 0:24:54 | |
at the scenes of the crimes through using their mobile phone data. | 0:24:54 | 0:24:59 | |
The data itself when plotted, pretty much tells the story already. | 0:24:59 | 0:25:04 | |
So can you just talk me through this document, then? | 0:25:04 | 0:25:07 | |
This is for the cell site for Beddoes going down to, | 0:25:07 | 0:25:10 | |
erm, Coventry. | 0:25:10 | 0:25:13 | |
As a visual for the jury, it's relatively simple, isn't it? | 0:25:13 | 0:25:16 | |
Because what you can say is, when you use a phone, it leaves | 0:25:16 | 0:25:20 | |
a trace and this shows here that I start from Merseyside | 0:25:20 | 0:25:26 | |
and I make my way all the way down to Oxfordshire and that's very good. | 0:25:26 | 0:25:32 | |
The alarm goes off at 2.26 and heigh-ho, | 0:25:32 | 0:25:35 | |
your phone is hitting there. | 0:25:35 | 0:25:36 | |
So that's... that's very good evidence. | 0:25:36 | 0:25:39 | |
Maria now has 3,000 pieces of evidence from which | 0:25:41 | 0:25:44 | |
to try and build a case. | 0:25:44 | 0:25:46 | |
This is Unit 18 in Huyton, | 0:25:46 | 0:25:48 | |
and one of our defendants was seen | 0:25:48 | 0:25:51 | |
acting a bit suspiciously round here. | 0:25:51 | 0:25:54 | |
The officers then decide to do a search warrant at this lock up | 0:25:54 | 0:25:57 | |
and it was just amazing. | 0:25:57 | 0:26:00 | |
When they open it up we've got this stolen Audi vehicle. | 0:26:00 | 0:26:04 | |
But you can see here how they've taken the glove box off | 0:26:04 | 0:26:07 | |
and put in the oxyacetylene canisters. | 0:26:07 | 0:26:09 | |
We've then got these plastic bags and inside were the robbers' kits. | 0:26:09 | 0:26:14 | |
So Whittingham, he was caught outside, his DNA is on the glove. | 0:26:14 | 0:26:19 | |
Now we have this printer that can print numberplates. | 0:26:19 | 0:26:23 | |
So we can put that on the stolen vehicle. | 0:26:23 | 0:26:26 | |
Putting every little piece of the jigsaw together, | 0:26:26 | 0:26:28 | |
it becomes, builds, in my view an overwhelming case, | 0:26:28 | 0:26:31 | |
really, against Beddoes and Cartwright. | 0:26:31 | 0:26:34 | |
The CPS has just heard that Mr Maan also intends to reject | 0:26:36 | 0:26:39 | |
his early guilty plea. | 0:26:39 | 0:26:41 | |
The case will go to trial. | 0:26:41 | 0:26:45 | |
I can't see what his defence is. | 0:26:45 | 0:26:46 | |
No, no. I can't either. | 0:26:46 | 0:26:48 | |
Maybe it's psychological, I don't know. | 0:26:48 | 0:26:50 | |
It's the unwillingness to admit that you are responsible | 0:26:50 | 0:26:53 | |
for the death of somebody else. | 0:26:53 | 0:26:54 | |
Postponing the evil day. I don't know. | 0:26:54 | 0:26:57 | |
Who knows what goes through the minds of defendants? | 0:26:57 | 0:27:00 | |
It could be a whole variety of things, really. | 0:27:00 | 0:27:02 | |
Nobody sets out in their car to kill somebody, do they? | 0:27:02 | 0:27:05 | |
No, and I mean, it's the one offence that could lead to | 0:27:05 | 0:27:09 | |
a law-abiding citizen ending up | 0:27:09 | 0:27:11 | |
appearing before the Crown Court facing a prison sentence. | 0:27:11 | 0:27:15 | |
Nicky has received an e-mail from her family liaison officer. | 0:27:18 | 0:27:22 | |
I've had a request from the CPS asking if I would | 0:27:22 | 0:27:26 | |
like a meeting with them regard... | 0:27:26 | 0:27:28 | |
I need me glasses on! | 0:27:28 | 0:27:30 | |
I've only just started wearing them. Oh, that's better. | 0:27:30 | 0:27:33 | |
Erm... | 0:27:33 | 0:27:35 | |
..with them regarding the progress of the case | 0:27:35 | 0:27:39 | |
from their point of view. | 0:27:39 | 0:27:41 | |
It's completely up to me. | 0:27:41 | 0:27:43 | |
The bottom line is that the Crown Prosecutor | 0:27:43 | 0:27:47 | |
is prosecuting on behalf of the state, not on behalf of the victim. | 0:27:47 | 0:27:53 | |
But of course there's no other party in that courtroom | 0:27:53 | 0:27:57 | |
who's representing the victim, | 0:27:57 | 0:28:00 | |
so in a way, we feel as if we are. | 0:28:00 | 0:28:04 | |
I think that's changed probably over the 20-odd years | 0:28:06 | 0:28:09 | |
I've been prosecuting. | 0:28:09 | 0:28:11 | |
We didn't really used to meet victims when I first started. | 0:28:11 | 0:28:16 | |
And even if they were giving evidence in court, there was a very | 0:28:16 | 0:28:21 | |
much a hands-off and a nervousness of even speaking to a victim. | 0:28:21 | 0:28:26 | |
But now the direction of travel is to be more | 0:28:26 | 0:28:29 | |
and more involved with the victims of crime. | 0:28:29 | 0:28:32 | |
Almost a year after her son died, | 0:28:34 | 0:28:36 | |
Nicky will have her first meeting with the CPS. | 0:28:36 | 0:28:40 | |
Before we start can we offer our sincere condolences for | 0:28:40 | 0:28:42 | |
the loss of your son? | 0:28:42 | 0:28:44 | |
We appreciate it's a very difficult time for you. | 0:28:44 | 0:28:47 | |
-We thoroughly understand that. -Thank you. | 0:28:47 | 0:28:49 | |
What we can't do is discuss the evidence with you. | 0:28:49 | 0:28:52 | |
You probably appreciate that because you will be a witness in due course. | 0:28:52 | 0:28:56 | |
I just don't understand how he can say he's not guilty of driving | 0:28:56 | 0:29:01 | |
carelessly when his car was on my side of the road. | 0:29:01 | 0:29:05 | |
It... | 0:29:05 | 0:29:06 | |
There's a growing feeling of... | 0:29:06 | 0:29:10 | |
..it's going towards anger | 0:29:10 | 0:29:13 | |
because if you can't say what happened, | 0:29:13 | 0:29:17 | |
isn't that careless by default? | 0:29:17 | 0:29:20 | |
-I don't understand. -Well, I understand your... | 0:29:20 | 0:29:22 | |
I understand your... the statement you made | 0:29:22 | 0:29:26 | |
and your confusion over that. | 0:29:26 | 0:29:27 | |
-Yeah. -I want to avoid discussion of the evidence. | 0:29:27 | 0:29:30 | |
We...We've got his plea there. | 0:29:30 | 0:29:33 | |
We'll have to see what happens in a couple of months' time. | 0:29:33 | 0:29:35 | |
Erm, we could speculate and sometimes that doesn't help. | 0:29:35 | 0:29:38 | |
The questions that I wanted answers to I couldn't be told | 0:29:42 | 0:29:46 | |
because I'm a witness and I have to go in court untarnished. | 0:29:46 | 0:29:51 | |
And that actually is quite isolating. | 0:29:51 | 0:29:55 | |
For them, it's evidence... | 0:29:55 | 0:29:58 | |
It's my life. | 0:30:00 | 0:30:02 | |
I want to know what other people saw. | 0:30:02 | 0:30:04 | |
I want answers to my questions | 0:30:04 | 0:30:08 | |
and I don't want them a year and a half down the line. | 0:30:08 | 0:30:12 | |
Having said that, when you're talking to the people face-to-face, | 0:30:13 | 0:30:17 | |
they can see your eyes, they can see what you're going through, | 0:30:17 | 0:30:23 | |
that you are not just that name on that form | 0:30:23 | 0:30:26 | |
or that it was just a schoolboy. | 0:30:26 | 0:30:29 | |
It's not just a schoolboy, it's my son. | 0:30:29 | 0:30:32 | |
At Liverpool Crown Court there's a plea and case management hearing | 0:30:37 | 0:30:40 | |
to set the trial date in the ATM case. | 0:30:40 | 0:30:44 | |
Three of the seven defendants have so far appeared. | 0:30:44 | 0:30:48 | |
A guilty plea at this stage would mean a 25% discount | 0:30:48 | 0:30:51 | |
in their sentence. | 0:30:51 | 0:30:53 | |
The good news is that Beddoes and Cartwright pleaded guilty. | 0:30:54 | 0:30:58 | |
The other person who was represented was Bushell, who indicated | 0:30:58 | 0:31:01 | |
a not guilty plea, which was surprising considering he was | 0:31:01 | 0:31:04 | |
caught on the CCTV coming back with the proceeds of the crime. | 0:31:04 | 0:31:08 | |
But, erm, apparently he was having a walk near McDonald's and they | 0:31:08 | 0:31:12 | |
drove past and collected him and he went for a McDonald's with them. | 0:31:12 | 0:31:16 | |
Hopefully the jury will laugh that out of court. | 0:31:16 | 0:31:19 | |
But it is a lot of extra work to make it a trial-ready file, | 0:31:19 | 0:31:22 | |
but so be it. Obviously, he's a right to plead not guilty | 0:31:22 | 0:31:26 | |
and we have to prove our case. | 0:31:26 | 0:31:27 | |
'It used to be the case that a defendant could just plead | 0:31:29 | 0:31:31 | |
'not guilty and say, "You prove the case against us." | 0:31:31 | 0:31:34 | |
'And we would go to trial' | 0:31:34 | 0:31:36 | |
and we would have to bring every | 0:31:36 | 0:31:38 | |
single piece of evidence before the court. | 0:31:38 | 0:31:40 | |
Actually, what we have now done is said, "Absolutely right - if you're | 0:31:40 | 0:31:44 | |
"pleading not guilty it's for the prosecution to prove the case | 0:31:44 | 0:31:47 | |
"but tell us which bits of the case are the ones that you're disputing." | 0:31:47 | 0:31:52 | |
Mr Maan's lawyer has just sent his defence statement to the CPS. | 0:31:57 | 0:32:01 | |
So what's he saying? Memory test. Save me reading it. | 0:32:03 | 0:32:06 | |
Effectively, that there was a... there was a sudden deluge of rain, | 0:32:06 | 0:32:09 | |
erm, heavy rain, which lasted approximately ten seconds - | 0:32:09 | 0:32:12 | |
this is a precis - which caused his car to aquaplane. | 0:32:12 | 0:32:16 | |
I think the phrase used at some stage in that - | 0:32:16 | 0:32:19 | |
he was a passenger in a sliding car, which he couldn't control, | 0:32:19 | 0:32:23 | |
through no fault of his own. | 0:32:23 | 0:32:25 | |
If it was this deluge, which we don't accept, | 0:32:25 | 0:32:30 | |
then you drive to the weather conditions. | 0:32:30 | 0:32:32 | |
I mean, it's like on the motorway the other day it was torrential. | 0:32:32 | 0:32:36 | |
I could barely see and I absolutely slowed down because your windows... | 0:32:36 | 0:32:40 | |
Or the alternative is, it's not a motorway, you could indicate | 0:32:40 | 0:32:43 | |
-and pull over and stop, if it was that bad. -Yes. | 0:32:43 | 0:32:46 | |
Well, to put it crudely, if the weather is that bad, | 0:32:46 | 0:32:48 | |
-it's not all bets are off, legally, is it? -No. | 0:32:48 | 0:32:50 | |
-And therefore you've no culpability... -No. | 0:32:50 | 0:32:52 | |
..if you plough into somebody coming in the opposite direction. | 0:32:52 | 0:32:56 | |
When the defendant is spoken to at the scene, | 0:32:56 | 0:33:00 | |
what does he say, initially? | 0:33:00 | 0:33:02 | |
It's such a long time ago since I read the file. | 0:33:02 | 0:33:06 | |
I know. That's the problem. I mean, that's... | 0:33:06 | 0:33:08 | |
really the problem for the witnesses now, isn't it? | 0:33:08 | 0:33:12 | |
I mean, it's awful to know that a piece of driving has taken | 0:33:12 | 0:33:15 | |
the life of a child, but...it's just prolonging the agony, really. | 0:33:15 | 0:33:19 | |
Yes, it's Constable Roberts. | 0:33:20 | 0:33:22 | |
He stood near the Porsche, was on the pavement. | 0:33:22 | 0:33:25 | |
"I could see an Asian male who appeared to be in shock | 0:33:25 | 0:33:27 | |
"and he was visibly upset and shaking | 0:33:27 | 0:33:30 | |
"and he said, 'The car just gave way. | 0:33:30 | 0:33:32 | |
" 'I don't know what happened. I'm so sorry.' | 0:33:32 | 0:33:34 | |
"And I made a note of his comments in my pocket notebook." | 0:33:34 | 0:33:37 | |
It doesn't say... Interestingly, it doesn't say... | 0:33:37 | 0:33:39 | |
-"There's such a heavy downpour... -"There's such a heavy downpour | 0:33:39 | 0:33:42 | |
"and the road was awash, I couldn't see what was happening." | 0:33:42 | 0:33:46 | |
The prosecution team now has to get the case ready for trial. | 0:33:46 | 0:33:50 | |
In the Crown Court, when the case is decided by the jury, | 0:33:52 | 0:33:55 | |
roughly 40% end with a not guilty verdict. | 0:33:55 | 0:33:59 | |
And the next case involved damage to a mosque | 0:33:59 | 0:34:03 | |
and a copy of the Koran had been thrown on to the floor | 0:34:03 | 0:34:06 | |
and ripped and there was also urine on the carpet. | 0:34:06 | 0:34:09 | |
Really unpleasant incident, actually. | 0:34:09 | 0:34:11 | |
The jury, erm, came back with a not guilty verdict. | 0:34:11 | 0:34:16 | |
It seems to me the key to this case was proving that the suspect | 0:34:16 | 0:34:19 | |
actually entered the mosque. | 0:34:19 | 0:34:20 | |
-Yeah. -It was. | 0:34:20 | 0:34:22 | |
There doesn't seem to be any mention of fingerprints. | 0:34:22 | 0:34:25 | |
Someone's picked up a Koran, someone has pulled shelves off the wall. | 0:34:25 | 0:34:29 | |
This may just be my ignorance | 0:34:29 | 0:34:30 | |
but can you extract DNA from urine or not? | 0:34:30 | 0:34:33 | |
That's what I was going to say. | 0:34:33 | 0:34:34 | |
You should be... you see them in American shows. | 0:34:34 | 0:34:37 | |
There seems to be there is a lot of missed opportunities. | 0:34:37 | 0:34:40 | |
For me, there are significant failings on behalf | 0:34:40 | 0:34:46 | |
of the officers that investigated this crime from the moment | 0:34:46 | 0:34:51 | |
they actually arrived and then their inability to respond | 0:34:51 | 0:34:56 | |
promptly to the CPS request to complete the outstanding actions. | 0:34:56 | 0:35:02 | |
This whole case, you know, even if it had been non-racially aggravated, | 0:35:02 | 0:35:07 | |
is a complete disaster. | 0:35:07 | 0:35:09 | |
The fact it's religiously aggravated just makes it even worse | 0:35:09 | 0:35:13 | |
and I suppose that for me, listening to you, the lesson | 0:35:13 | 0:35:16 | |
we need to take away is, actually, any victim faced with this level | 0:35:16 | 0:35:21 | |
of service would end up losing faith in the criminal justice system, | 0:35:21 | 0:35:26 | |
wouldn't they? | 0:35:26 | 0:35:27 | |
An opening in the schedule at Chester Crown Court | 0:35:30 | 0:35:33 | |
means the Maan case is being brought forward four months. | 0:35:33 | 0:35:36 | |
I've had an official letter | 0:35:37 | 0:35:40 | |
that has called me as a witness... | 0:35:40 | 0:35:43 | |
..which is...very weird. | 0:35:46 | 0:35:49 | |
"As a witness likely to give important evidence, | 0:35:52 | 0:35:56 | |
"you must attend." Underlined, bold. | 0:35:56 | 0:35:59 | |
"You must attend." | 0:35:59 | 0:36:02 | |
That is really scary. | 0:36:02 | 0:36:04 | |
That I must go and tell | 0:36:04 | 0:36:09 | |
a room of strangers | 0:36:09 | 0:36:12 | |
how my son died next to me. | 0:36:12 | 0:36:15 | |
"If you've not already done so, | 0:36:15 | 0:36:16 | |
"please consider making a victim personal statement... | 0:36:16 | 0:36:20 | |
"..which will outline to the court | 0:36:23 | 0:36:25 | |
"the impact that this crime has had on you." | 0:36:25 | 0:36:27 | |
I'm not a victim and I don't want to be referred to as one. | 0:36:32 | 0:36:38 | |
What I'm doing and what my family are doing, and Flynn's memory... | 0:36:38 | 0:36:44 | |
is...surviving and living. | 0:36:44 | 0:36:48 | |
The worst thing has happened. | 0:36:50 | 0:36:53 | |
Nothing can be as bad as that day. | 0:36:54 | 0:36:56 | |
With that as my benchmark, | 0:36:57 | 0:36:59 | |
I'm not concerned about going to the courtroom. | 0:36:59 | 0:37:04 | |
I'm scared. | 0:37:09 | 0:37:10 | |
I'm scar... | 0:37:10 | 0:37:12 | |
With the trial approaching, the CPS have hired an external | 0:37:16 | 0:37:20 | |
barrister, who will try and prove to the jury that | 0:37:20 | 0:37:23 | |
Mr Maan was guilty of causing the death of Flynn Morrissey | 0:37:23 | 0:37:26 | |
by careless driving. | 0:37:26 | 0:37:28 | |
Now, if he's driving properly and | 0:37:28 | 0:37:31 | |
attentively in the conditions in which he finds himself, | 0:37:31 | 0:37:35 | |
he shouldn't cross the central reservation | 0:37:35 | 0:37:37 | |
into the path of someone else. | 0:37:37 | 0:37:38 | |
That's the sort of starting point for this, isn't it? | 0:37:38 | 0:37:41 | |
But something has made that happen. | 0:37:41 | 0:37:42 | |
Gareth Roberts has just received a report from a road collision | 0:37:42 | 0:37:45 | |
investigator appointed by the defence. | 0:37:45 | 0:37:48 | |
He says the collision was due to aquaplaning. | 0:37:48 | 0:37:52 | |
He says, "It is my opinion the loss of control was | 0:37:52 | 0:37:54 | |
"caused by the vehicle aquaplaning, following what was described | 0:37:54 | 0:37:57 | |
"by the first police officer to arrive at the scene as significant | 0:37:57 | 0:38:00 | |
"surface water running across the carriageway from left to right." | 0:38:00 | 0:38:03 | |
Let's take it to an extreme. | 0:38:03 | 0:38:04 | |
If you're going down round a corner and the car loses control | 0:38:04 | 0:38:07 | |
and you don't do anything about it, | 0:38:07 | 0:38:09 | |
you keep rotating in that direction. | 0:38:09 | 0:38:11 | |
You would go round. | 0:38:11 | 0:38:13 | |
But he says he went to the left and then to the right. | 0:38:13 | 0:38:15 | |
But he says he didn't do anything about it. | 0:38:15 | 0:38:18 | |
Now, to go from the left to the right, | 0:38:18 | 0:38:19 | |
he's got to have done something about it. | 0:38:19 | 0:38:21 | |
The car will not do that on its own. | 0:38:21 | 0:38:23 | |
And for it to go from one way to the other, there has got to be grip. | 0:38:23 | 0:38:27 | |
And therefore he is not aquaplaning at that time. | 0:38:27 | 0:38:30 | |
If he aquaplaned, it happened at the very, very beginning and then | 0:38:30 | 0:38:33 | |
his overreaction to the aquaplaning took him down into impact. | 0:38:33 | 0:38:37 | |
Now, the calculation I've put... | 0:38:37 | 0:38:40 | |
I've used sliding friction cos I did skid tests at the scene. | 0:38:40 | 0:38:44 | |
So the total distance of perceive, react | 0:38:44 | 0:38:47 | |
-and slide to a stop of 72 metres... -Yeah. | 0:38:47 | 0:38:49 | |
..takes into consideration sliding friction. | 0:38:49 | 0:38:52 | |
The conclusion you came to is that if he had been driving properly | 0:38:52 | 0:38:54 | |
he would have been able to stop. | 0:38:54 | 0:38:56 | |
Even if at any point during that | 0:38:56 | 0:38:57 | |
-whole scenario he hit the brakes... -Yeah. | 0:38:57 | 0:39:00 | |
..it wouldn't have travelled the 90 metres. | 0:39:00 | 0:39:02 | |
It would still have stopped. It might have travelled the 90 | 0:39:02 | 0:39:04 | |
-metres, but it wouldn't have been doing 30mph at the end. -Yeah. | 0:39:04 | 0:39:07 | |
It doesn't seem to me as if he's done any braking. | 0:39:07 | 0:39:10 | |
So all he's done is try to correct, correct, | 0:39:10 | 0:39:12 | |
correct and then we've got the collision. | 0:39:12 | 0:39:14 | |
I think that's a devastating point, actually. | 0:39:14 | 0:39:16 | |
I think when a jury hear that | 0:39:16 | 0:39:18 | |
if this gentleman had hit his brakes properly, | 0:39:18 | 0:39:20 | |
when he found himself losing control of the car, | 0:39:20 | 0:39:24 | |
there's a very good chance | 0:39:24 | 0:39:25 | |
he would have stopped prior to the collision | 0:39:25 | 0:39:28 | |
and the collision might have been a prang | 0:39:28 | 0:39:31 | |
rather than the devastating collision which we have. | 0:39:31 | 0:39:34 | |
When I'm getting ready, | 0:39:36 | 0:39:38 | |
it's really weird because I can hear Flynn. | 0:39:38 | 0:39:41 | |
Cos when I used to get ready before and he'd come in | 0:39:42 | 0:39:45 | |
and go, "You look nice," and I can hear his voice. | 0:39:45 | 0:39:48 | |
So when I'm putting my make-up on, | 0:39:48 | 0:39:50 | |
it feels like the right thing to be doing. | 0:39:50 | 0:39:53 | |
Cos I think sometimes | 0:39:55 | 0:39:57 | |
you could become aware about what other people think. | 0:39:57 | 0:40:01 | |
So if you go out there and you've got your red lipstick on, | 0:40:01 | 0:40:04 | |
it doesn't really fit with the image of a mum | 0:40:04 | 0:40:08 | |
who's lost her little boy, really, so... | 0:40:08 | 0:40:12 | |
I don't know... | 0:40:12 | 0:40:14 | |
It shouldn't matter what people think. | 0:40:14 | 0:40:17 | |
But it does, you know? | 0:40:19 | 0:40:21 | |
But I'm looking forward to tonight. | 0:40:23 | 0:40:26 | |
It's always good fun. | 0:40:26 | 0:40:29 | |
And we do it for Flynn. | 0:40:29 | 0:40:31 | |
Be the mum that he would recognise and he would recognise me, you know. | 0:40:31 | 0:40:36 | |
Sometimes I cry and that's OK, | 0:40:36 | 0:40:40 | |
but I could just imagine him | 0:40:40 | 0:40:43 | |
watching me and just going, "What you doing? | 0:40:43 | 0:40:45 | |
"What you doing that for?" | 0:40:45 | 0:40:47 | |
So I get up and put my lippy on | 0:40:47 | 0:40:51 | |
and go and party. | 0:40:51 | 0:40:52 | |
# Sometimes I feel I've got to run away | 0:40:54 | 0:40:59 | |
# I've got to get away... # | 0:40:59 | 0:41:02 | |
Prosecuting somebody, hopefully it will get them justice but it | 0:41:02 | 0:41:05 | |
doesn't mean that everything's rosy at the end of the prosecution. | 0:41:05 | 0:41:08 | |
We're not there to mend things, cos we can't. | 0:41:08 | 0:41:11 | |
That awful thing has happened to them | 0:41:11 | 0:41:14 | |
and all we can do is prosecute. | 0:41:14 | 0:41:16 | |
The ATM case will soon be in court. | 0:41:18 | 0:41:21 | |
There are already 327 witness | 0:41:21 | 0:41:23 | |
statements and 2,500 pages of exhibits | 0:41:23 | 0:41:28 | |
and Maria is still adding to the evidence. | 0:41:28 | 0:41:32 | |
Now, Mr Bushell is someone who's actually seen | 0:41:32 | 0:41:37 | |
red-handed at the address. His DNA is recovered there. | 0:41:37 | 0:41:40 | |
Now, the further enquiries | 0:41:40 | 0:41:42 | |
since he's pleaded not guilty have been interesting. | 0:41:42 | 0:41:44 | |
On his phone, there's a jokey photograph of him | 0:41:44 | 0:41:47 | |
pointing to an open ATM and laughing. | 0:41:47 | 0:41:51 | |
I think that's really good. I think a jury will like that. | 0:41:51 | 0:41:53 | |
-Yeah. -Colourful. | 0:41:53 | 0:41:55 | |
He then, in his defence case statement, | 0:41:55 | 0:41:58 | |
said he was in Spain for a lot of the time. | 0:41:58 | 0:42:00 | |
Well, his phone now, we're locating him back in England so he's... | 0:42:00 | 0:42:04 | |
So he wasn't in Spain. | 0:42:04 | 0:42:05 | |
So he's telling lies and juries don't like people who tell lies. | 0:42:05 | 0:42:08 | |
So we've got that. We then have Whittingham. | 0:42:08 | 0:42:12 | |
We finally managed to get into his phone and came out with this, | 0:42:12 | 0:42:16 | |
which was brilliant. | 0:42:16 | 0:42:18 | |
Photos on his phone? | 0:42:18 | 0:42:19 | |
Right, this kit was found in unit 18. | 0:42:19 | 0:42:22 | |
On Whittingham's phone, there's a picture. That's Whittingham. | 0:42:22 | 0:42:25 | |
-A picture of himself? -That's such good evidence for us, though. | 0:42:25 | 0:42:28 | |
I think it's brilliant and I just said, if I'm sitting on a jury now, | 0:42:28 | 0:42:32 | |
I think you've partial DNA on that glove, you've got a photo | 0:42:32 | 0:42:34 | |
of yourself wearing that because you're a career criminal. | 0:42:34 | 0:42:37 | |
And you couldn't have chosen something more distinctive. | 0:42:37 | 0:42:39 | |
That's what I mean. What an idiot. So, erm, | 0:42:39 | 0:42:42 | |
that's only come in today so I'm really pleased with that. | 0:42:42 | 0:42:44 | |
That's really good. | 0:42:44 | 0:42:45 | |
They should be pleading and that makes me so cross when they don't. | 0:42:45 | 0:42:49 | |
With the Maan trial imminent, Nicky and her mother are going to | 0:42:49 | 0:42:53 | |
meet the prosecution barrister before he questions Nicky in court. | 0:42:53 | 0:42:57 | |
These cases are very, very tricky in that the degree of his bad | 0:42:57 | 0:43:04 | |
driving is quite subtle, if I can put it that way. | 0:43:04 | 0:43:07 | |
It's not... | 0:43:07 | 0:43:09 | |
Are you able to clarify what | 0:43:09 | 0:43:10 | |
-your ideas are about that careless driving? -Yep. | 0:43:10 | 0:43:13 | |
-Cos I know what I saw. -Yep. | 0:43:13 | 0:43:14 | |
I'm a little bit wary of talking to you too much about it | 0:43:14 | 0:43:17 | |
because I don't want to colour your evidence, you know? | 0:43:17 | 0:43:19 | |
I take my case from you, not the other way, if you see what | 0:43:19 | 0:43:22 | |
I mean. Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. | 0:43:22 | 0:43:25 | |
What I saw gave me the impression... | 0:43:25 | 0:43:28 | |
..that there was a certain manoeuvre going to be... | 0:43:31 | 0:43:34 | |
Yeah, you thought he was thinking about overtaking, didn't you? | 0:43:34 | 0:43:38 | |
Bearing in mind that I'm a driver with all those years | 0:43:38 | 0:43:40 | |
experience, that is exactly what it looked like to me. | 0:43:40 | 0:43:44 | |
In that way, your evidence is significant. | 0:43:44 | 0:43:47 | |
You're not coming just as a mother to sort of... | 0:43:47 | 0:43:50 | |
to add some colour to the life which was lost. | 0:43:50 | 0:43:53 | |
-Absolutely not. -You're also coming | 0:43:53 | 0:43:54 | |
as a witness of fact to tell the jury what it is you saw. | 0:43:54 | 0:43:57 | |
And then after that, Mr Dawson will ask you some questions. | 0:43:57 | 0:44:00 | |
But what I know he will not do is bully you or shout at you. | 0:44:00 | 0:44:04 | |
It's not that kind of case. | 0:44:04 | 0:44:06 | |
He can bring it on. I know what I saw. | 0:44:06 | 0:44:08 | |
Yeah, I can see that. | 0:44:08 | 0:44:10 | |
I can see you're pretty robust | 0:44:10 | 0:44:12 | |
and you'd handle yourself absolutely fantastically. | 0:44:12 | 0:44:14 | |
I'll be honest with you, I'm not expecting a conviction. | 0:44:14 | 0:44:17 | |
But at the same time, if I didn't think there was any chance | 0:44:17 | 0:44:20 | |
-I'd have told the CPS a long time ago... -Yeah. | 0:44:20 | 0:44:23 | |
..and that's not the case here, but it is tricky. | 0:44:23 | 0:44:26 | |
It is a very challenging case. | 0:44:26 | 0:44:29 | |
Part of my frustration is | 0:44:32 | 0:44:35 | |
over the months you embark on a journey | 0:44:35 | 0:44:38 | |
and as we're beginning to walk again after, you know, | 0:44:38 | 0:44:46 | |
just being bulldozed over by this terrible thing, | 0:44:46 | 0:44:51 | |
all of a sudden we've got to go back to that day, | 0:44:51 | 0:44:56 | |
remember exactly who we were, how it made us feel, what was | 0:44:56 | 0:45:00 | |
the weather like and it feels... | 0:45:00 | 0:45:05 | |
Well, I said to you, it feels cruel. | 0:45:05 | 0:45:08 | |
I think it's a mistake to get any sort of attachment | 0:45:09 | 0:45:12 | |
to any sort of outcome. | 0:45:12 | 0:45:14 | |
Provided what happens is fair and right, | 0:45:14 | 0:45:17 | |
then I think that's all anybody can ask for. | 0:45:17 | 0:45:20 | |
Nicky is the first of 13 witnesses for the prosecution. | 0:45:23 | 0:45:26 | |
She is cross-examined by the defence barrister for 24 minutes. | 0:45:50 | 0:45:54 | |
She was fantastic as a witness, actually, | 0:46:15 | 0:46:18 | |
because she was forceful | 0:46:18 | 0:46:20 | |
and clearly telling the truth. | 0:46:20 | 0:46:22 | |
She stood up very strongly to the cross-examination of her, | 0:46:22 | 0:46:25 | |
which was hard. | 0:46:25 | 0:46:27 | |
But she was... At no point, was she in any way hysterical | 0:46:27 | 0:46:30 | |
or excessively emotional, or anything like that, | 0:46:30 | 0:46:33 | |
which - without sounding, sort of, cold - | 0:46:33 | 0:46:35 | |
is quite important in a witness. | 0:46:35 | 0:46:37 | |
It was just like being at the top of a bungee, | 0:46:37 | 0:46:39 | |
just that... | 0:46:39 | 0:46:41 | |
moment before you go... | 0:46:41 | 0:46:43 | |
Just so... | 0:46:45 | 0:46:46 | |
..scary, | 0:46:49 | 0:46:51 | |
but it needs to be | 0:46:51 | 0:46:54 | |
examined properly for Flynn - | 0:46:54 | 0:46:57 | |
to know what the truth is. | 0:46:57 | 0:46:59 | |
In Liverpool, | 0:47:01 | 0:47:03 | |
after five weeks of the trial, | 0:47:03 | 0:47:04 | |
the ATM case is drawing to a close. | 0:47:04 | 0:47:07 | |
Anya did a really, really excellent closing. | 0:47:07 | 0:47:09 | |
I'll give you an example. | 0:47:09 | 0:47:11 | |
Thomas Whittingham, month of August. | 0:47:11 | 0:47:13 | |
Anya goes through, laboriously, | 0:47:13 | 0:47:15 | |
each day in August, | 0:47:15 | 0:47:16 | |
you go to sleep in Widnes, you wake in Widnes. | 0:47:16 | 0:47:19 | |
And really interestingly, | 0:47:19 | 0:47:20 | |
the three days he didn't do that | 0:47:20 | 0:47:22 | |
-were the three dates of the ATM attacks. -Funny that. | 0:47:22 | 0:47:25 | |
It was such an own goal. | 0:47:25 | 0:47:26 | |
It was brilliant. | 0:47:26 | 0:47:27 | |
I feel a lot more confident. | 0:47:27 | 0:47:29 | |
That's really good. | 0:47:29 | 0:47:30 | |
I think it's come together really well. | 0:47:30 | 0:47:32 | |
Today, the jury is expected to deliver their verdict. | 0:47:32 | 0:47:35 | |
It's quite an odd feeling, to be honest. | 0:47:35 | 0:47:40 | |
As a prosecutor, what you're meant to do is strive for justice | 0:47:40 | 0:47:43 | |
but if you think somebody is guilty | 0:47:43 | 0:47:45 | |
and you've worked on the case for a long time, | 0:47:45 | 0:47:48 | |
you do want a conviction. | 0:47:48 | 0:47:50 | |
And for someone like Maria, | 0:47:50 | 0:47:51 | |
where it's been her life's work for practically a year, | 0:47:51 | 0:47:54 | |
she'll certainly be quite nervous now sitting in court, I suspect. | 0:47:54 | 0:47:58 | |
And we're just sitting, waiting from afar. | 0:47:58 | 0:48:01 | |
Right, OK. | 0:48:07 | 0:48:08 | |
What's happened? Right, brilliant. OK. | 0:48:11 | 0:48:13 | |
Can you come back to us, Jack? | 0:48:13 | 0:48:15 | |
Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. | 0:48:15 | 0:48:17 | |
What's happened? | 0:48:17 | 0:48:20 | |
Guilty for Bushell, Guilty for Whittingham. | 0:48:20 | 0:48:22 | |
There are now two guilty verdicts | 0:48:24 | 0:48:27 | |
to add to the earlier three guilty pleas. | 0:48:27 | 0:48:29 | |
There is also one hung jury decision and one acquittal. | 0:48:29 | 0:48:32 | |
We've got an acquittal. | 0:48:34 | 0:48:35 | |
So be it. | 0:48:43 | 0:48:44 | |
Move on. | 0:48:45 | 0:48:47 | |
You have to be quite dispassionate really. | 0:48:49 | 0:48:52 | |
Our job is to put the case before the court, | 0:48:52 | 0:48:55 | |
but then we've to just allow justice to run its course. | 0:48:55 | 0:48:58 | |
We always try and say in the press | 0:48:58 | 0:49:00 | |
that we respect the decision of the jury | 0:49:00 | 0:49:04 | |
because we have to and we do. | 0:49:04 | 0:49:07 | |
There is a feeling though, when you've done a lot of work | 0:49:10 | 0:49:12 | |
and you think there should have been convictions obviously. | 0:49:12 | 0:49:16 | |
There is that. | 0:49:18 | 0:49:19 | |
But I mean, this is a good result. | 0:49:19 | 0:49:20 | |
We've got at least four offenders found guilty, or pleaded guilty, | 0:49:20 | 0:49:24 | |
so that's a result in itself. | 0:49:24 | 0:49:25 | |
At Chester Crown Court, it's the third day of proceedings. | 0:49:27 | 0:49:31 | |
Mr Maan is due to give his version of events. | 0:49:31 | 0:49:34 | |
The defendant is cross-examined for 29 minutes. | 0:49:58 | 0:50:01 | |
I thought his explanation was all right. | 0:50:15 | 0:50:18 | |
He gave it, and he... | 0:50:18 | 0:50:20 | |
But at the same time, there were a number of inconsistencies | 0:50:20 | 0:50:23 | |
and there were a number of times | 0:50:23 | 0:50:24 | |
I thought he was wriggling a little bit. | 0:50:24 | 0:50:26 | |
But I'm not surprised about that | 0:50:26 | 0:50:28 | |
because he's in a difficult position. | 0:50:28 | 0:50:30 | |
But he was properly upset | 0:50:30 | 0:50:32 | |
by what had happened. | 0:50:32 | 0:50:34 | |
Someone who a jury will think, | 0:50:34 | 0:50:36 | |
"If I want to err on his side, I will do so cos I don't dislike him, | 0:50:36 | 0:50:40 | |
"I don't hate him." | 0:50:40 | 0:50:42 | |
Which is important in all cases really, | 0:50:42 | 0:50:44 | |
especially when you're defending. | 0:50:44 | 0:50:46 | |
Tomorrow, the defence expert will testify, | 0:50:46 | 0:50:49 | |
then the two sides will present their closing arguments. | 0:50:49 | 0:50:53 | |
In the ATM case, there'll be a final hearing | 0:50:54 | 0:50:57 | |
for the judge to decide the defendants' sentences. | 0:50:57 | 0:51:00 | |
This is actually the bundle that has been put together | 0:51:00 | 0:51:05 | |
just for the sentencing hearing. | 0:51:05 | 0:51:07 | |
It's apparent as you read through these things, | 0:51:07 | 0:51:10 | |
that just sentencing somebody isn't that straightforward. | 0:51:10 | 0:51:13 | |
They don't stick a finger in the air and make up a sentence. | 0:51:13 | 0:51:17 | |
The interesting thing here is, | 0:51:17 | 0:51:19 | |
because the offending is quite unusual, | 0:51:19 | 0:51:22 | |
there aren't any sentencing guidelines to help us. | 0:51:22 | 0:51:26 | |
The maximum sentence here for the explosives offence | 0:51:26 | 0:51:30 | |
is life imprisonment. | 0:51:30 | 0:51:33 | |
For the burglary aspect to it, | 0:51:33 | 0:51:36 | |
it's ten years' imprisonment. | 0:51:36 | 0:51:38 | |
You've then got the previous convictions of all the defendants. | 0:51:38 | 0:51:42 | |
For example, one of the defendants here | 0:51:42 | 0:51:44 | |
has got 60 previous convictions | 0:51:44 | 0:51:47 | |
and he's only 20. | 0:51:47 | 0:51:49 | |
And the judge will take this into account when sentencing. | 0:51:51 | 0:51:54 | |
So, the more previous convictions you've got, | 0:51:54 | 0:51:57 | |
the more likely you are to get a more significant sentence | 0:51:57 | 0:52:01 | |
the next time round. | 0:52:01 | 0:52:03 | |
But ballpark figure is, sort of, double figures. | 0:52:03 | 0:52:05 | |
Early double figures. | 0:52:05 | 0:52:06 | |
I might well be completely wrong now. | 0:52:07 | 0:52:09 | |
I shall look a fool if I am. | 0:52:09 | 0:52:12 | |
The judge declares that this was, | 0:52:13 | 0:52:15 | |
"Undoubtedly serious organized crime on a significant scale," | 0:52:15 | 0:52:19 | |
that these were "uncontrolled explosions," | 0:52:19 | 0:52:22 | |
and, "although they may not have been intended to cause death | 0:52:22 | 0:52:25 | |
"or serious injury, | 0:52:25 | 0:52:26 | |
"nonetheless they were very fortunate | 0:52:26 | 0:52:28 | |
"no-one was hurt or killed." | 0:52:28 | 0:52:30 | |
I'll go and tell Claire what happened, | 0:52:36 | 0:52:39 | |
so you can go to the pub if you want. | 0:52:39 | 0:52:42 | |
More than my guess of 12? | 0:52:42 | 0:52:44 | |
Yes, and that was my guess as well. | 0:52:44 | 0:52:47 | |
-Oh, was it? -Yes. -Right. | 0:52:47 | 0:52:49 | |
The two who were leading roles | 0:52:49 | 0:52:51 | |
each got 17 years... | 0:52:51 | 0:52:53 | |
Oh, goodness. Yeah, OK. Oh, wow. | 0:52:53 | 0:52:55 | |
..with eight years concurrent for the conspiracy to burgle. | 0:52:55 | 0:52:59 | |
Quite a significant sentence, | 0:52:59 | 0:53:01 | |
bearing in mind, he'd given them 25% credit for their guilty pleas. | 0:53:01 | 0:53:05 | |
Gosh, that's huge, isn't it? Really well done. | 0:53:05 | 0:53:07 | |
And as Maria was saying, | 0:53:07 | 0:53:08 | |
it just shows that we picked the right charges. | 0:53:08 | 0:53:11 | |
And that's what we said right at the beginning of the case | 0:53:11 | 0:53:13 | |
is we wanted to make sure that this doesn't pay. | 0:53:13 | 0:53:16 | |
-Didn't we? -Yes, that's right. | 0:53:16 | 0:53:18 | |
That was the whole kind of thought when we first started to look at it. | 0:53:18 | 0:53:21 | |
-This is a new series of attacks. -Yes. Yes. | 0:53:21 | 0:53:24 | |
-So, yeah, it's a really good result. -Yeah. | 0:53:24 | 0:53:26 | |
At Chester Crown Court, | 0:53:29 | 0:53:30 | |
the jury is now deciding | 0:53:30 | 0:53:32 | |
whether they think the prosecution has proved | 0:53:32 | 0:53:34 | |
that Mr Maan is guilty | 0:53:34 | 0:53:36 | |
of causing death by careless driving. | 0:53:36 | 0:53:39 | |
It's not a jury I'd want to be on | 0:53:39 | 0:53:41 | |
because the issues are quite complicated in a way. | 0:53:41 | 0:53:44 | |
No-one has been able to say, | 0:53:44 | 0:53:46 | |
"This is the exact reason why he lost control of his car." | 0:53:46 | 0:53:50 | |
So, you're saying to a jury, | 0:53:50 | 0:53:51 | |
"I want you to be sure that he lost control due to carelessness." | 0:53:51 | 0:53:55 | |
Even I don't know why it happened | 0:53:55 | 0:53:57 | |
and that feels a little bit odd. | 0:53:57 | 0:53:59 | |
It's a case which, if I was on the other side, defending it, | 0:53:59 | 0:54:03 | |
I'd have thought, straight away, "I'll win this." | 0:54:03 | 0:54:05 | |
Because you think all you have to do is, without sounding arrogant - | 0:54:05 | 0:54:08 | |
but you'll think all you have to do | 0:54:08 | 0:54:10 | |
is put enough doubt into the minds of the jury | 0:54:10 | 0:54:12 | |
and then they should acquit. | 0:54:12 | 0:54:14 | |
But saying that, as the week has gone on, | 0:54:14 | 0:54:16 | |
I think the jury got enough of what I was trying to convey. | 0:54:16 | 0:54:20 | |
I hope so, but who knows? | 0:54:20 | 0:54:21 | |
It's the fairest way to find... | 0:54:23 | 0:54:27 | |
the closest thing we can to the truth. | 0:54:27 | 0:54:30 | |
Whatever the outcome is... | 0:54:31 | 0:54:34 | |
I trust that outcome. | 0:54:34 | 0:54:36 | |
I've been there every day and... | 0:54:36 | 0:54:38 | |
..it's fair and it's just. | 0:54:40 | 0:54:42 | |
After two-and-a-half hours, the jury returns. | 0:54:46 | 0:54:49 | |
They find Mr Maan guilty. | 0:54:49 | 0:54:52 | |
It didn't take the jury that long. | 0:54:52 | 0:54:54 | |
I would have thought they might have been out for longer, | 0:54:54 | 0:54:56 | |
which means that, at the end of the day, they were fairly sure. | 0:54:56 | 0:54:59 | |
They were very sure. | 0:54:59 | 0:55:00 | |
Mr Maan does not receive a custodial sentence. | 0:55:00 | 0:55:03 | |
The judge decides to give him a 12 month community order | 0:55:03 | 0:55:06 | |
of 150 hours of unpaid work. | 0:55:06 | 0:55:09 | |
He's also disqualified from driving for 12 months | 0:55:09 | 0:55:12 | |
with no re-test required | 0:55:12 | 0:55:14 | |
and ordered to pay £4,200 in costs. | 0:55:14 | 0:55:18 | |
The judge very rightly said, at the end of his sentencing, | 0:55:19 | 0:55:22 | |
when he was giving his sentencing remarks, | 0:55:22 | 0:55:24 | |
that, of course, the penalty in no way | 0:55:24 | 0:55:27 | |
reflects the deep suffering | 0:55:27 | 0:55:28 | |
which has been felt by the Clifford family - | 0:55:28 | 0:55:30 | |
and that's got to be right because it doesn't, but no penalty could. | 0:55:30 | 0:55:34 | |
I can't believe | 0:55:38 | 0:55:39 | |
that it's behind me now. | 0:55:39 | 0:55:43 | |
It has been so long. | 0:55:43 | 0:55:45 | |
It's been... | 0:55:45 | 0:55:46 | |
..16 months, or something like that. | 0:55:47 | 0:55:50 | |
But the point, for me, | 0:55:50 | 0:55:52 | |
happened yesterday before the verdict was announced. | 0:55:52 | 0:55:55 | |
And I realised that... | 0:55:55 | 0:56:00 | |
I knew the truth. | 0:56:00 | 0:56:02 | |
It was a momentary lapse of concentration | 0:56:02 | 0:56:06 | |
on the part of the other driver - | 0:56:06 | 0:56:08 | |
and before the verdict was read out, | 0:56:08 | 0:56:11 | |
I asked if the other driver | 0:56:11 | 0:56:14 | |
would like to meet with me. | 0:56:14 | 0:56:16 | |
She went and spoke to the defendant, didn't she? | 0:56:18 | 0:56:21 | |
So I understand, yeah. | 0:56:21 | 0:56:23 | |
She apparently wanted to make sure | 0:56:23 | 0:56:25 | |
that he didn't continue to have the guilt that, clearly, | 0:56:25 | 0:56:29 | |
-he's been feeling since the accident happened. -Yeah. | 0:56:29 | 0:56:32 | |
I think it shows great humanity really, doesn't it? | 0:56:32 | 0:56:36 | |
Absolutely. | 0:56:37 | 0:56:38 | |
You sort of wonder if you could be quite so magnanimous. | 0:56:38 | 0:56:42 | |
Well, yes. You'd like to think you would be but... | 0:56:42 | 0:56:44 | |
probably wouldn't. | 0:56:44 | 0:56:46 | |
No. | 0:56:46 | 0:56:48 | |
But...it's difficult, isn't it? | 0:56:48 | 0:56:50 | |
Because now the family know that... | 0:56:50 | 0:56:53 | |
Well, a court have found this wasn't an accident so... | 0:56:53 | 0:56:57 | |
..it didn't have to happen. | 0:56:58 | 0:57:00 | |
Baying for somebody's blood, | 0:57:01 | 0:57:04 | |
it doesn't solve anything, does it? | 0:57:04 | 0:57:07 | |
It really doesn't. | 0:57:07 | 0:57:09 | |
So... | 0:57:10 | 0:57:12 | |
I'm grateful to him for seeing me. | 0:57:12 | 0:57:15 | |
I mean... | 0:57:15 | 0:57:17 | |
it's helped me. | 0:57:17 | 0:57:19 | |
He's a good man who's made a mistake... | 0:57:19 | 0:57:22 | |
..and the consequences have been devastating... | 0:57:23 | 0:57:26 | |
..but they're devastating to him as well and... | 0:57:27 | 0:57:31 | |
I hope that, one day, he goes on to have his family. | 0:57:31 | 0:57:34 | |
He's just got married and I want him to be a good daddy. | 0:57:34 | 0:57:39 | |
I don't want this to ruin his life. | 0:57:39 | 0:57:42 | |
Flynn... | 0:57:45 | 0:57:47 | |
Flynn's presence in this world | 0:57:49 | 0:57:52 | |
should not ruin anybody's life... | 0:57:52 | 0:57:55 | |
..and... | 0:57:57 | 0:57:58 | |
..I'm going to make sure that happens. | 0:58:00 | 0:58:02 | |
If you're interested in finding out more about the justice system, | 0:58:15 | 0:58:18 | |
you can join in a simulated court case from The Open University | 0:58:18 | 0:58:21 | |
and reach your own verdict. | 0:58:21 | 0:58:24 | |
Go to bbc.co.uk/prosecutors | 0:58:24 | 0:58:27 | |
and follow the links to The Open University. | 0:58:27 | 0:58:30 |