Creationism Conspiracy Road Trip

I'm Andrew Maxwell, a comedian,

but in this series, I'm on a serious mission -

to explore the world of the conspiracy theorist.

Tonight, it's religious fundamentalists,

people who believe every detail of their holy books is fact,

and science is out to destroy God.

I'm going to travel with these diehard creationists to the West Coast of America...

-Andrew.

-I'm Phil.

..where nearly 50% of people are on their side...

-Hi!

-Good morning.

Hi, I'm Sam. Nice to meet you.

..to try and understand where they're coming from.

For them, humans and dinosaurs lived happily, side by side.

Noah squeezed every living creature onto his Ark...

Noah's Ark was specifically designed by God.

..and evolution is a pack of lies told to rid the world of God.

They'll be challenged by experts who think that's all nonsense.

That's not conjecture, it's evidence.

But the coach trippers won't take it lying down.

Literally, I don't want it.

There's going to be tears...

None of that up there is what Jesus is about.

..fall-outs...

-That's not why we're here.

-When you have nothing to say, put your hand up when you're out of ideas.

..and downright rebellion.

You're a bully and a pathetic director,

a complete and utter bully.

Fasten your seatbelts and welcome to Conspiracy Road Trip.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the road trip!

CHEERING

So here it is, over the space of 150 years,

evolution has become to be known as,

in the scientific community, certainly,

a certainty, an absolute fact.

Boo to you, sir, boo to you.

Now, I know somewhere along the way, you all believe that is nonsense, right?

I'm going to introduce you to the scientists,

you can meet them first-hand, and you can have it back and forward with them.

I'm not here to rattle your faith.

I doubt very much if I could, right, Phil?

This Dublin midget is not going to convince you that there isn't a God,

nor do I intend to, brother, all right?

My fellow trippers are Phil, a fire and brimstone Christian.

He can't wait for atheists to meet their maker...

I think evolutionists will feel the full weight of their choice

whenever they get to Judgment Day.

..south London Muslim Abdul,

who's up for a fight with evolutionary scientists...

There's no empirical proof for evolution.

They lie. Scientists are liars.

There's Paris, France, everyone!

Yay, Eiffel Tower!

..19-year-old call centre worker Bronwyn -

she believes humans used to have to run away from T-rex.

No doubt, there were probably some fatalities

with humans and dinosaurs co-existing,

but, you know, hasn't there been some fatalities with lions and humans co-existing as well?

There's single mum JoJo who sees God's beauty in love and everything...

We're intricately designed, you know.

There is so much to us, that there had to be a creator,

to create what is just so perfect.

..and, finally, design student Sam,

who's here to stand up for his faith.

There's this view put out that the church is dead,

Christianity means nothing and it has no cultural relevance.

And, actually, that's just not the case.

Over the next week, we're going to travel 2,000 miles

from Las Vegas, through California, to San Francisco.

Each of my five fundamentalists is going to put forward something

they believe in, and I'm going to try and meet them head on.

I do not want to be offending to

the core people who are hard-core Christians or hard-core Muslims...

You know what I mean? ..because I've got a life to lead.

'This will be quite the challenge.

'If these people believe they only answer to an all-powerful being,

'then God only knows where we'll all end up.'

We've hit the road.

One of my fellow travellers is Phil.

He's first to be put to the test.

The Bible teaches that there will be a judgment at the end of this world.

People don't want that. They don't want the baggage.

They don't want God because God comes with consequences.

Phil is going to be the toughest nut to crack.

It's his personal crusade to convince people that the events in the Bible are literally true.

I am a Christian and I firmly believe that the Bible

is the authority that everyone should stand on.

It is the word of God and I believe that it's true from start to finish.

Phil believes the world is only 6,000 years old,

and that the Grand Canyon was formed by a giant biblical flood just 4,000 years ago.

In a biblical creationist's point of view, the Grand Canyon was formed as part of a post-flood event,

at the time of Noah, and it carved the Canyon out very rapidly.

Sounds like a nice story, but how could you believe it's fact?

I want everyone to take a closer look at this natural wonder of the world,

from 10,000 feet.

-There you go.

-Thank you.

You're welcome, you'll need those.

This is an air travel crucifix.

The pilot's got his own supply of crucifixes,

so it's up, up and away on a wing and a prayer.

Phil is convinced each of these giant cliffs and valleys

was carved out by a single flood just 4,000 years ago,

and the others think the evidence really adds up.

-SAM:

-Incredible, isn't it?

ABDUL: They make you just in awe of God.

Even the pilot's on their side.

For me, flying out here really is just a great spiritual thing.

I really get an increase into my faith when I fly out here.

Another one of us!

# La-la la, la-la, la

# La-la la, la-la, la

# La-la la, la-la, lay. #

# I'm on the top of the world lookin' down on creation

# And the only explanation I can find... #

I'm looking down on God's wonderful creation from our science machine.

# ..is the love that I've found Ever since you've been around

# Your love's put me at the top of the world. #

Wow! This is incredible.

-SAM:

-It's almost like a painting.

Andrew, here's how we're going to test the theory of evolution -

we're going to push you over,

and we'll see if you can evolve into a bird by the time you fall down.

-Is that OK?

-Evolve quicker!

Evolve quicker? That's quite a nice heckle put-down.

-I have to say, Phil, it does put my mind to great periods of time.

-OK.

I see millions of years.

But what do I know? So we're meeting an expert, Professor Don Prothero,

a geologist who's been working at the Canyon for 35 years.

One of the first things I want to make clear is that I am a scientist.

We deal only with natural forces

and things that we can observe and test in nature.

You can see the layers of the earth pile up,

one on top of another, in a place like this better than just about anywhere else.

Immense amounts of times are required to deposit that,

cement it into hard sandstone and shale, tilt it, erode it.

Your minimum estimate is hundreds of millions of years.

Don, thank you for your talk so far.

Your first assumption was naturalism and your second, uniformitarianism.

As all scientists around the world are.

Not all scientists. That would be a false statement.

Well, all scientists I'm aware of.

Really? So you've never read any creationist literature?

-Oh, I've read them. I don't count them as scientists.

-Ah, right. OK.

The point is that, as far as I understand creationism,

is a belief that this is to do with the biblical flood, correct?

-Yeah.

-Yeah.

Could this be a giant flood?

Let me address that.

If the biblical flood really did create the Grand Canyon,

it would need to have carved out curved valleys,

like here at Horseshoe Bend.

Don thinks this is impossible

because flood water cuts along straight lines.

My understanding of creationist literature,

and I don't claim to have read as much of it as you, obviously,

is that the post-flood waters drained off.

-Is that your understanding?

-Yeah, one of two. The post-flood waters...

If your post-flood waters drain off,

they're going to drain off and form a sharp, straight canyon.

That's simple physics.

Just release the water gently onto the surface and,

as we let it go, we see what it does.

There you go. So far, it drains in there pretty fast.

Well, there was hardly enough to even get much.

ABDUL: Amazing. Gee!

But it's also very straight.

That's typical flood situations all around the world.

This is simple geomorphology.

This is the way we look at how the land forms the earth

and watch them evolve in real time.

-From our perspective, obviously, we see things kind of differently.

-Well, obviously.

As for the Horseshoe Bend and stuff here,

I'm not a trained geologist,

-so I think to try and answer a question in regards to that would be very silly.

-OK.

Phil might not have much to say,

but he's definitely making an impression on Abdul.

Phil said the Grand Canyon was made by the flood.

He just dropped that one in.

I don't know where it says in the Bible the Grand Canyon was made by a flood,

but he's kind of just adopted it as a cornerstone of his belief.

Is anybody here in any way less convinced?

Not really. I'm not... I'm not less convinced,

just because this is just one thing.

But it's his water. It's his gravity, right?

You know, it's his stuff.

-Yeah, so he can do what he wants with it, right?

-Yeah, of course.

So he doesn't have to abide by any other laws, cos it's his after all?

-That's right, but as a scientist, I can't do that.

-Yeah, that's fine.

It would seem odd that he would just, once off, do something different with water,

than what he does everywhere else on his creation.

'I don't really know where we can take this with people who,'

when shown the most basic nature of water, go,

"Well, maybe he changed his mind once.

"Maybe God decided to do something different with water."

You know? Under those sort of circumstances, it's hard to know.

We might disagree about the fundamentals of science,

but on a 2,000-mile road trip,

you've got to have fun, country-style!

COUNTRY MUSIC PLAYS

Yeah! Woo!

WOMEN SCREAM

Go, Sammy! Go, Sammy! Go, Sammy!

ANDREW DROWNED OUT BY LAUGHTER

-I don't know, JoJo.

-Are we the judges?

It's day two of the road trip and we're heading to Lake Powell, Utah.

Creationists are certain that the story of Noah's Ark

is a matter of historical fact, but the devil's in the detail.

JoJo fills us in on the blueprints for the biblical boat.

Apparently, Noah made it roomy enough for both his family

and 16,000 animals,

including the dinosaurs.

Noah's Ark was specifically designed by God. He was the architect.

The dimensions of the Ark was 140 metres long,

23 metres wide,

and 40 metres high.

So, in layman's terms, that is longer than a football field

and taller than a four-storey building.

So, in the space of 4,500 years,

we've gone from eight people

and a certain number of animals,

to all the animals.

-That is creation theology?

-Yeah.

OK, so the story may sound incredible,

but it's a mainstay of JoJo's belief.

Her faith in God was renewed after a successful battle with cancer.

There was one occasion when, um,

I was, like, so, so weak,

I could hardly breathe and I absolutely, categorically,

heard a voice say, "Not yet, not yet,"

and I was too weak to even fight it, and I just thought,

"What do you mean "not yet"?"

Now, I know that some people will say, you know, if people,

you know, talk to God, it's called prayer.

If people hear God, then it's called insanity.

Well, you know, at the end of the day,

I heard something, and from that day, I have not looked back.

I have put weight on, I have become healthier and healthier,

and things changed,

and it was just a specific, still, quiet, peaceful voice,

that just said, "Not yet."

I can get the spiritual side of JoJo's beliefs,

but I cannot get my head around the idea

that all those animals could live in one wooden boat.

Professor Jerry Coyne has been studying biology for 40 years,

and he also knows a little thing or two about boats.

A boat has never been built longer than 300 feet, made entirely out of wood,

so there's just simply no way that a boat 450-feet long could have survived.

You hear of turbulent flooding and I'm wondering how...

I mean, that's a scientific objection.

But the fact that man has never built a boat longer than a certain distance is no way conclusive.

-That's based on evidence.

-Can I finish, please?

-It doesn't mean a creator couldn't figure something out.

-I'm sorry, but there is evidence for this.

It's not just something... Let me finish now, OK.

They tried to build these long boats but they were unstable, as that's what they built in the 19th century.

PHIL: So your first assumption there is totally incorrect.

No, it's not. I take issue with you.

You're saying ship-building has not evolved. That's not true.

Things are getting heated. The boys won't accept a word Jerry says,

and they're hijacking JoJo's point.

Let me go slow, let me go slow.

A supposition in the dictionary

is translated as meaning an uncertain belief.

You said your supposition is that boat-building has evolved.

-(TEARFULLY)

-I just can't stand the arguments. It's just stupid.

I just find it really rude.

If somebody is coming with his opinion, fair enough, OK? That's what he believes.

But then when people are bombarding him and not letting him speak, that's just rude.

We're not happy standing here saying nothing. That's not why we're here.

When you have nothing to say, put your hand up when you're out of ideas,

and this is the only moment I'll speak.

Otherwise, I'll be silent.

Love, harmony, peace, none of that up there is what Jesus is about.

I'm not in it for this.

Well, no, but I'm not standing here like some kind of cretin ignoring, you know, ignoring the evidence.

But I've already given you so much evidence.

I think any reasonable person who's not perverse would have to say, "Well, this is a fairy story."

Where did the whales go, where did the whales go in the Ark? Answer me.

Well, the thing is though is if there was someone here who was also,

you know, well read, and understood, and had looked into this,

then they might be able to give you a better answer.

but I just can't, and I'm not going to stand here and try and pretend.

To be honest, Sam, I think that is a little bit of a cop-out.

It's a pretty straightforward question he's asking you -

where would a whale go on a boat?

If we're going to write off the whole thing as a miracle,

why not say God shrunk the animals down to the size of chickpeas,

and made them stop excreting?

Why do you insist on comporting a completely uncomportable scenario

of 16,000 animals on an ark,

and trying to make that fit with a story that you are sworn to accept?

That's the difference between you and me,

because if there is something that would make me believe in the Ark,

some evidence that it's possible, I haven't seen it.

But there's no evidence I could give you that would make you give in to this,

because you're committed to the biblical story,

and so if any evidence goes against it, you have to say,

"Well, God brought in a miracle there."

Before the trip, I was expecting the gang

to have an answer for everything I threw at them,

but instead I'm feeling God-blocked at every turn.

The thing we're sort of going up against is that creationism is...

is simple. I don't mean in an offensive way,

like it's simpleton, you know what I mean?

But it's pretty damn straightforward and easy to understand.

"God made it."

Evolution is unique among scientists,

because it strikes people in the solar plexus of their faith directly.

It strikes them in the idea that they're especially created by God,

because evolution says you're not.

It says that there's no special purpose for your life,

because it's a naturalistic philosophy.

We have no more extrinsic purpose than a squirrel or an armadillo,

and it says that morality does not come from God.

It is an evolved phenomenon.

And those are three things that are really hard for humans to accept,

particularly if you're from a religious tradition.

I'm worried this whole trip is turning into a fool's errand.

Do you think that there is something in us that is so adamant,

that, actually, we don't want to hear?

Do you think, he was saying, "Well, yeah, I've given you this evidence,

"I'm telling you the Ark could have not floated,

"I'm telling you the whales would have died,"

and he was giving us, you know, fact after fact within the science remit.

How do you think that we are in response to that?

It's extremely easy, if you're in a position of, I don't know,

intellectual authority, to sort of...

..lord it over someone.

For example, if we were going to, I don't know,

have a conversation about German techno,

and I was the one that knew all about German techno and you don't,

then I could make you look like a total fool,

cos I can walk you all over the place.

That didn't bother me that much.

It was just the phrases he was using, like,

"That's what you people would believe in - these fairy tales."

What was that word he used?

-Perverse.

-Perverse, yeah.

"You people are so perverse that you believe in these fairy tales."

I was like, "What?"

My trippers may be finding it easy to wave away the evidence, but they're not alone.

Apparently almost half of Americans believe in some form of creationism,

so we're off to California to meet some of them.

These guys are on a local rally for the Tea Party,

a growing right-wing political force in America.

CAR HORNS BEEP

-How you doing?

-I'm fine. How are you?

-Good. Peter.

-Abdul.

-Pleased to meet you, Abdul.

-Rob.

-Abdul.

-You're not from here, are you?

I was just wondering - obviously, you're a Christian,

so you believe in creationism.

Absolutely. I believe in the literal transition of the Bible,

I believe we were created in six days.

And do you believe in Noah's flood and the Ark?

Absolutely. And there's evidence of that. There's evidence of...

So far, so good, but for the American creationists,

their faith is also emotionally tied to some of the most controversial issues of the day.

So what's your sort of view on abortion?

It's murder.

So you would actually look at a woman and say,

"You're a murderer for killing your baby"?

I am a murderer. I am a murderer.

OK, so you've had an abortion? Two.

I will remember it for the rest of my life,

and I will regret it forever, but God has forgiven me.

-Would you vote for somebody who was openly a Darwinist?

-No.

They could be Muslim, they could be Jewish, they could be Mormon,

they could be Christian, as long as they believed in God.

If they have some moral, they have some moral underpinnings,

-but a Darwinist does not.

-No?

-I don't think so.

Would you vote for an atheist?

I'm not so sure. That's a very difficult question. I think...

You know, it might also depend on what the situation was.

-Who was the opponent, you know?

-Yeah, exactly.

If you had the devil as the opponent,

you'd vote for the Darwinist!

I wouldn't vote for him at all. I mean, really...

You would abstain from voting if it was...?

Yeah, because if you vote for somebody who you know eventually does things that are immoral,

then you put that person in position,

so you have to be willing to hold yourself accountable.

That's why your vote must matter.

I'm loving it here!

Like, I know that I'm going to look like some crazy Christian,

but I literally love these people.

I want to move here. I want to live with them forever.

# Oh, say does that star-spangled banner yet wave

# O'er the land of the free... #

Boom!

# ..and the home of the brave? #

WHOOPING AND CHEERING

I'm starting to get a handle on my creationists.

and just how wary they are around non-believers.

So if I'm to stand any chance of getting through to them,

my next expert has to be a man of faith, too.

MUSLIM PRAYER CALL

It's Friday, the most important prayer day of the week for Muslims,

so Abdul is choosing to spend the day at the mosque,

here in Bakersville, California.

Being a Muslim, you know, speaks about everything,

how you use a toilet, which foot you enter your house with,

how you eat, what you eat, how you eat it.

And there's an Islamic way to do things,

and an un-Islamic way to do things.

Abdul's dedication means that he's going to miss today's activities,

but for him, his faith comes first.

This takes priority over everything. It takes priority over work,

it takes priority over meeting a scientist

and having a discussion about evolution,

so I need to... I need to go to the mosque.

The rest of us are heading into big oil country,

where people not only drill for black gold,

but also dig for fossils.

Now it's Bronwyn's turn to step up.

At just 19, she's also the most recent convert to creationism.

She found her faith while her mum was in rehab.

My parents broke up when I was about six months old.

My mum had a drinking problem through most part of my childhood.

She had it really rough and while she was at rehab,

I lived with my grandparents, who were great,

so it was just me and them.

Bronwyn believes the world was created in six days,

and that humans lived alongside dinosaurs.

I believe that dinosaurs first existed 6,000 years ago, around,

and they were created on day six of creation week,

with the rest of the land animals, and with Adam and Eve.

That's what I believe.

'So, we lived side by side with T-Rex?

'All sounds a bit Jurassic Park to me.'

But if humans and dinosaurs did live together,

then surely there would be some evidence of that.

I want my creationists to get their hands dirty,

by joining a marine fossil dig.

Let's see if we can unearth the truth.

I got a tooth!

That's a baby tooth.

I got a tooth!

That is really tiny.

# The band was jumpin'

# The people, too

# Ah, mess around

# They doin' the mess around

# They doin' the mess around

# Everybody doin' the mess around... #

So far, my fellow travellers have been dismissive

of every scientist they've met,

but Greg Wilkerson is not just a distinguished palaeontologist,

but also a devout Christian.

So maybe they'll take his science more seriously,

-So what's that?

-Another part of the vertebrae?

Very good. I got more rib bones here.

I guess you guys must have kept all the shark's teeth.

Yeah, there were a couple!

One of the key points of creationism is that man and dinosaurs lived at the same time.

Here's the problem I have with that scenario.

For all the fossil sandwiches that we find around the world with dinosaur fossils,

we just don't find human fossils there.

It's trying to take a square peg into a round hole.

That whole world is incompatible with the world for humans.

I mean, can you imagine pterodactyls trying to share the same sky with condors?

I mean, they couldn't compete.

I have to tell you that I once shared your view, OK?

To me, to squish all of his creative power into a 4,000/6,000,

whatever, framework is to...tarnish his glory.

And so I just would say I...

..am, I'm sorry for the involvement I had,

insofar as it made people less likely to come to church.

The points you made are really good, actually,

and I think as well it's important to test these things out,

because it's all very well saying something,

but actually looking at the evidence is really important.

I feel like uni student Sam is starting to listen

to some of the evidence.

But the others are more interested in judging Greg's faith,

rather than looking at the science.

I don't think I'll ever be half and half.

Like, even talking, after talking to Greg, it just convinced me more

that being half and half is just... It just doesn't make sense to me.

It doesn't make sense to think,

"OK, yeah, evolution happened. Oh, but then Jesus came to save us."

No, that's not what happened.

I think that whenever Greg looks at the Bible,

he comes from a very dangerous position,

in that he can interpret it whatever way he feels fit,

and he can change that over time.

But I would say to you that you interpret science whichever way feels fit.

Well, the outworking of how we view the world about us starts always from the Bible, yes.

Right. Well, I got to say this, man.

I do wonder why the hell you're here at all.

You take the literal word of the Bible and done, full stop.

So again, it comes down to my point -

why do you creationists bother at all?

Why do you bother trying to interpret it, or go back and forth with extremely sincere scientists,

whether they're atheists or Christian? Why bother?

Because what they do is they put it upon everyone and they teach it as fact when it's not.

How many creationist geologists have you invited on this trip? None.

Yeah, but the point is...

No, no, no. Let's break it right down. Let's be honest, Andrew,

We have invited zero creationists in their field.

The point isn't to reinforce your views. It's to have a debate.

But it would have been nice to have seen a real creationist geologist.

Oh, dude, what would be the point in that?

-Sit with somebody who totally agrees with you? You can do that at home.

-Not me. Them two.

The point of the show is for you to discuss things and that's it.

I thought a Christian might have been able to open them up to the science.

Unfortunately, I seem to have only reinforced Phil's view that science is underhanded,

and, worse, somehow he's now convinced the whole road trip is a stitch-up.

Things are getting pretty heated.

It's now day four of the road trip. We've made it to central California.

Abdul's now back on board,

so I think it's time to do something surely we can all enjoy together.

Bing bong! Hi-de-hi, campers!

-Hello.

-WOMEN:

-Hello!

-Guten morgen.

Today, I want you to meet a guy

who shares almost 99% the same DNA as us,

our closest living cousin...

-Oh, you mean a monkey.

-..George Bush!

Today, we are going to have a close, personal encounter...with a chimp.

Yeah!

-Abdul, have you ever met a chimp before?

-A couple.

You've met a couple?

-On this trip.

-Fair enough.

-WOMEN:

-Ohhh!

ANDREW IMITATES A CHIMP

We've come to meet Chris, who trains a host of wild animals.

-SAM:

-He's incredible. He's so powerful.

A fully grown chimp can rip a human's face off,

so we've decided to stick with Billy,

who's still a little fella at seven years old.

CHRIS: It's exciting, isn't it?

THEY COO

LAUGHTER

-This is Billy. BRONWYN:

-Hi, Billy.

Like I said before, if he comes up to you, just, you know...

If you don't want him to come up to you, just say so and I won't let him jump on you.

INAUDIBLE

..more than anything else I've ever wanted!

Good boy, have a seat.

Dear Jim'll Fix It, no need to fix it for me. I've just met the...

Hey, hey, hey! No, no! He doesn't need you to pick his nose.

Thank you, though!

LAUGHTER

'Creationists are appalled by the idea we are related to chimps through evolution.

'After all, the holy Bible says that we were created separately in God's image.

'But are we really that unique?'

The chimpanzee has a full range of emotions?

Yes. Yeah, they... I've seen chimps cry.

They don't have tears like us, but they cry.

I mean, their biological functions are very similar to us.

BILLY SHRIEKS

-ABDUL:

-Can you see the connection between him and a human being?

-Or do you believe...?

-Oh, yeah. I see there are similarities,

but I see a lot of similarities across the board.

-Are you OK with him messing with your shoes?

-Yeah, honestly, it's fine.

Hey, hey! Watch your mouth, young man.

-PHIL:

-In regards to the differences, the differences are so extreme,

in regards to, you know, what human beings can do and accomplish,

and how they think and how they process things, and their awareness,

or the vastness of the universe and the God who created them.

Do you believe in God?

Oh, yeah. Most definitely.

And working with chimps and as a scientist hasn't really got rid of your belief in God?

No, I've always been very pragmatic.

For me personally, I think it's important for us as humans to come up with our own personal philosophy.

Has working with these fabulous, fabulous people,

these fabulous little creatures...

I call them people, too. It's funny.

How does it make you feel to think that you might share

some ancestry with this, this fella, that you might be related to him?

Because it makes me feel really happy.

I don't get offended by it because there's a bunch of generations removed, you know.

I have some cousins that are less desirable.

Oh, I got to meet the chimp!

Billy the chimp, Billy the chimp, Billy the chimp.

Listen, you know, on this road trip, it's going to be fraught at times,

but it's really great to have a moment like that,

where it's something we can all share. We all enjoyed Billy.

For me, the great little moment was when Chris was like,

"Yeah, I call him people, too."

Bob's your uncle there! That's it.

That doesn't lessen God.

I think Andrew made, you know, quite an important distinction at the end,

you know, that Billy is an animal, and that we are humans.

And, you know, if Andrew wants to think that he came from an animal,

erm, you know, he has serious problems there,

if he wants to be treated like one, too.

Phil's become the most vocal person in the group.

I always feared he'd be the toughest nut to crack,

and he's definitely proving to be.

It's Sunday, the fifth day of the trip.

The Christians are heading to a local church in northern California.

JoJo doesn't often go to church,

as she prefers to follow Jesus in her way.

If you look at his story, his life, he was about,

you know, hanging out with the prostitutes, he was about hanging out with the misfits.

And I believe that I'm a bit of a misfit,

and even in the church, I'm a misfit, and that's cool.

I don't mind that because I know that I am at one with Jesus and that Jesus loves me.

So the church, you know...

Sometimes I don't believe the church delivers what it needs to.

I don't believe that the church has got it right.

So in relation to abortion, in relation to...gay,

you know, the gay community...

Like, my son is actually gay, and I love him, I adore him,

and I would never, ever change him for the world.

JoJo's take is controversial in the church right now.

Phil, for one, sees things very differently

and has jumped to an odd conclusion

about the sort of church I'm taking them to.

-Good morning, how you doing?

-How are you?

-My name's Phil.

-I'm Melvin.

-I just have a very quick question for you before I go in here.

-Sure.

-What type of church is this?

-It's a non-denominational.

OK, that's grand. Just a normal, straightforward church?

-A normal church?

-Yeah.

This might sound really strange, but is it a gay church?

-HE LAUGHS

-No!

That's OK. I'm here with a BBC film crew and they're trying to set us up at every opportunity,

so I want to know what it's about.

-JOJO:

-Hi, good morning.

Phil has given the church a clean bill of health,

but still has a problem with JoJo being asked about her gay-friendly views.

He is NOT happy.

Phil, Phil, Phil! Phil!

Oh, my God.

I don't want him saying anything.

Let me just say to your face, you are a disgusting human being.

-Excuse me?

-Trying to force someone to say something on TV about nothing

that has nothing to do with creation and evolution.

You are a bully and a pathetic director, a complete and utter bully.

What did you say?

I told him he's a pathetic bully.

Why are you doing that?

I don't think the director's a bully.

I also don't think Phil can pick and choose

what parts of their faith the others can talk about.

# God almighty... #

I would say that the film crew are bullying us into a position that we don't want to be in,

so if you can pray for us to be wise with our tongues,

speak forthrightly with the truth and proclaim Jesus in every opportunity.

The church service has turned into an unholy mess,

so afterwards I decide to speak to Phil about what the hell just happened.

When we got off this bus, you were...angry this morning.

-Not angry, no.

-Not angry?

-No!

What emotion were you exerting?

-Despair.

-Despair.

You see the others as being bullied?

Well, I think that everyone's attempting to be bullied, yes.

-Do you feel you're being bullied?

-Absolutely. Well, trying to be, yes.

I don't bully so easily.

Yeah! I mean, there's, for me, the startling thing straightaway, Phil -

I can't exactly see how you would be bullied.

I don't know if you know this, Phil,

but you exert a lot of sort of subtle menace.

-That's an opinion you have, Andrew.

-It is my opinion I have.

-OK.

I've travelled with you for a week now.

That's exactly my opinion.

Give me the opportunity to speak to these other people on the bus,

because at the moment I'm feeling like you are steering the others in the group.

-That's your opinion, Andrew. I can't...

-You don't feel that?

-No, I don't.

-Genuinely?

-No, I think they have their own opinions and views,

and have expressed them as much or as little as they choose to.

You haven't in any way directed the others at any time during this week?

No, definitely not. No.

I think we've come to the end of this conversation, Andrew,

because it's not about creation or evolution.

ANDREW SIGHS

Nobody else in the group has in any way expressed to me that they're being bullied.

There's a level of disingenuous there with Phil that it's just incredible, you know.

It's so self-evident that he is taking leadership over the group,

but he maintains he hasn't, anyway.

I've been trying to get each tripper to engage with the science,

and I've come up against a united front of faith.

But since the church, I see a split forming in the group.

I think Phil has a big task on his hands.

I mean, JoJo's very liberal, at the same time,

Bronwyn's very liberal in terms of the homosexuality question,

and he's trying to have all of them share his kind of opinion of,

you know, hard line, boom, no.

Not in Christianity, not...not kosher.

I think he sees himself as the, you know, the father figure of the group and, in turn,

in doing that is, you know, is kind of watching our steps, really.

But I have my own life, my own children

and I'm capable of putting down, or laying down, my boundaries,

of what I feel is acceptable or not.

It's day six. We've arrived in Berkeley, California, on the outskirts of San Francisco.

20-year-old Sam, the son of a vicar, is moving firmly into Phil's camp.

Phil is an extremely nice guy. I think he's very honest,

he's very clear about his intentions and he is very knowledgeable,

but he's also a lot older than me.

You know, he's had more time to think about it.

I really respect him

and I think he is extremely honest about his positions.

After hitting the books each evening,

he's come to a revelation, and it's not quite the one I was looking for.

As far as I can tell,

from looking at a lot of the evidence that we were looking at,

and looking at what the Bible says,

I think a young Earth is totally, totally possible.

I have no issue with that anymore and if that's what I've taken out of the trip, then great,

cos that's what I came here for, was answers, you know,

answers that I could come to draw to myself.

Sam's particular claim has been tested today,

which is why we're at Berkeley, the University of California.

As a bastion of science, this is like a lion's den for creationists.

-BRONWYN:

-Those guys are cute!

ABDUL: What are you doing? Can we just chill out?

THEY TALK OVER EACH OTHER

# You're too sexy for this bus Too sexy for this bus

# Too sexy it hurts! #

Can we focus on what we're doing in about 30 seconds?

Which is meeting, probably, a professor from Berkeley University

who's going to eat you alive due to the fact that, you know,

you spend the majority of the time thinking about how hot guys are.

Can I just say something?

I stand assured that YOU have got this under control.

Sam would never believe that he and Billy the chimp are distant relatives.

He's certain that human life began with Adam and a spare-rib Eve.

So all the biblical position is on all this,

is that there was a man and a woman at the very beginning -

Adam and Eve, if you will.

They're our common ancestors that, if we were in the Garden of Eden,

we could have gone and shook hands with.

We're all part of that same genealogy.

I always thought Adam and Eve weren't meant to be taken literally,

so we're going to meet professor of evolutionary biology Tim White,

for a shake of our family tree.

THEY GREET EACH OTHER IN ARABIC

What are your ideas on human evolution?

Well, we have Adam and Eve initially, OK?

And, then, so pick me up if I'm wrong, but this is,

you know, cos it'd be a lot easier with the Bible in front of me,

but we then have, so their children were Cain and Abel, is that correct?

Yeah. I mean, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, sorry. I'm just checking with everyone, just to make sure I'm not making any errors here, OK?

From there, um, they then had, er, children from there.

-So Cain and Abel had a child?

-Mm-hm.

-BRONWYN:

-No.

ABDUL: Cain and Abel are two dudes. They can't have a kid.

THEY TALK OVER EACH OTHER

The point is, you're saying DNA's changed that much in 6,500 years,

that 6,500 years ago,

it was genetically viable to have it off with your sister?

The Bible says right here, when it comes to the time of Moses,

that it then forbids brothers and sisters to marry.

The Bible's very specific about the reason for that -

it says they're now too close.

TIM: Is that true for all of you?

Can I...? Phil, I'm not trying to challenge you at all.

I just would like to ask a question inasmuch as, um, obviously,

I believe the Bible as well,

but you're saying that in the beginning God made mankind,

so why are they getting close and then he'd just kind of stop it further on down the line.

I don't get that.

As we're heading downhill genetically, it comes to a point in time where God says,

"Your genetics are too close.

"You should no longer marry your brother or your sister".

There are some hair-raising ideas about DNA and incest being bandied about.

Tim, however, is just interested in the evidence.

He's dug up hundreds of human-like skulls

from the same valley in Ethiopia.

Carbon-dating has put them at different ages,

but can Sam put them in chronological order by sight alone?

-Let's go, let's take that one. That one is right from...

-What is that?

That's from a million years old.

Oh, it's like this, so these are the eyes.

That's right.

So I suppose it would probably go over here cos the...

-Where the brow comes up...

-Perfect!

-..it's quite similar to this one.

-You got it!

-Oop!

-Careful now!

-Sorry!

They may not be the real fossils but there's only one copy in the United States so we don't want to break it.

I'm probably going to put this one here, I think.

Now, you got the order exactly correct because what we find -

that's the closest to the top...

You got one out of order, the canyon one.

-Is that right, there?

-That's good.

Then we get back to four and a half million years ago.

Now, remember I talked about one valley in Africa,

one stack of rocks.

Now, according to the idea that humans haven't changed

and that we should find humans all the way back,

now we got a problem in terms of the evidence,

because we don't find any of those guys

down in the early records.

And we don't find any of these in the later records.

So it looks like that model,

where it should be all humans, all the way back, fails.

It says a lot. I mean, I understand what your logic is.

I understand how you got here.

I haven't seen a case of natural selection making an organism change from one species to another species.

Neither have I, because we don't live long enough, bro!

-One second. I think...

-We don't live long enough!

-The neat thing we've got in this fossil record is nearly...

-It's conjecture.

It's not conjecture. It's evidence and reason.

We have almost a kilometre of rocks, over a kilometre,

and we can actually ask the question, what do we see?

We go back through time and this is what we see.

-BRONWYN:

-You're on the wrong end.

LAUGHTER

I was waiting for somebody to do it.

I'd thought it'd be blabbermouth, but you got in there first.

Hearing all of this is, you know,

eye-opening, and it's just, like, taking it in.

If everybody's coming up with the same conclusion,

I don't want to be blinkered.

Then don't be, don't be blinkered.

Oh, it stresses my head.

Same.

I mean, what would change your mind, honestly?

Nothing. And that sounds so narrow-minded. I really...

No, it doesn't sound narrow-minded.

It does, cos I don't want to be the person that's like,

"OK, so I've just come on this trip for ten days and nothing you show me is going to change my mind."

That is like "whoo".

But then, at the same time, I'm like, "It can't. It can't."

Like, I can't even tell you,

but it really, it can't, because of the faith that I have.

If I started accepting all of this,

then I've got to accept that everything else is a pile of crap,

and I don't accept that.

I think the signs are starting to make sense for JoJo at least,

but if it puts her faith at stake,

I wonder if she'd ever find a way to accept it.

There's only two more days of the trip left.

Everyone's had a morning off sightseeing.

but now we're waiting for Sam and Phil.

They're already an hour late and we've got a six-hour drive ahead of us.

We said to Phil, like JoJo said, "We need to be back by one,"

and he's like, "Well, if we're back, we're back. If we're not back, we're not back,"

-and we were like...

-He's mocking it.

I think Phil had in mind where Phil wanted to go today.

I can't see them at all.

Eventually, Phil and Sam turn up.

-Yeah, but you were stood right behind us.

-I know.

-Then I stopped for two minutes to try and look for a jumper.

-I know.

PHIL WHISTLES JAUNTILY

What a joke. Seriously, a joke.

Now the group have split, our mission have taken a back seat.

Phil doesn't want to talk to anyone,

but Abdul wants to make one point clear.

He's evasive and rude, mocking the situation for an hour and a bit,

came back with an attitude of "What? I'm sorry. What? I'm sorry.

"I'm sorry. What else do you want me to say? Sorry, that's it."

What that shows is a lack of respect which, literally, if that's the case,

if that's how he's playing it, this is how I'm playing it.

Literally, I don't want it, and if other people don't do the same,

I'm distancing myself from those people as well, you understand?

-BRONWYN:

-'I think Phil is isolating himself

'and then also isolating Sam now,

'and it's just the two of them.'

After we came back,

Abdul made it clear he didn't want to talk to Phil anymore.

Then Phil made it clear he wasn't talking to me or JoJo,

and it was just ridiculous.

The group is at loggerheads,

but at least we've all made it to rural Nevada intact.

We're here to ask the final, mind-boggling creation question -

how life began.

With creationism, it's simple - God did it.

But are scientists trying to remove him from the picture?

It's Abdul's turn to present to the group.

He thinks that scientists are simply wrong when they say God wasn't needed for life to begin.

They've created entire worlds of fiction with no evidence,

and they say, generally, things just popped into existence from the surroundings.

The idea of a creator seems more intelligible as a concept,

more reasonable and less of a jump.

But if God didn't create life, what on earth did?

We've come to Gerlach, Nevada,

to meet professor of astrophysics, Michael Russell,

in a place that looks totally out of this world.

-BRONWYN:

-Oh, that is amazing!

-PHIL: Yeah, that's very good.

That is amazing!

I feel like a kid at Christmas!

This is like... Oh, my gosh! This is amazing.

It's kind of complicated,

but Michael thinks life started out of this sort of thing.

What we're looking at is bacteria. It's just coated with bacteria.

Some of them are photosynthesizers.

They're the green ones or the so-called cyanobacteria,

and they've actually been purloined by other bacteria to make, actually,

what we now think of as the plant life,

whereas the red bacteria have been purloined by

what we now think of as animal life.

And because of this, we consider that maybe life started at a place like this, but underneath the sea.

So Michael thinks underwater versions of these giant geysers

were the perfect place for the first living cells to develop.

We have a wee rhyme. It's, "One, two, skip a few, 99, 100."

That was a really good example of it.

That's a great idea(!) You should say it again.

Maybe you should write it up in a paper.

-ABDUL: I like science. I don't want to be painted out to be someone who's against science.

-No, no, no.

What I like about science is things that we know.

I don't think science should present things they don't know

the same way they present things they do know.

I think there's a sleight of hand,

and it disheartens someone who loves science like me a great deal.

I think science should be undisputable,

but it's not that way when you start...

Are you using sleight of hand?

Well, it's no use to me. The whole point is you have to feel your own integrity.

I mean, I've got to be an instrument of science.

The best instruments of science, you've got to rely on, they've got to be precise and accurate.

What do you think men like Michael are actually doing?

They are giving you an alternative estimation which has no need or involvement for God.

-So, it's...

-In direct opposition.

It is a deliberately God-less explanation of life.

-Yes.

-Why? Why would he do that?

You know, I've explained this many times over the course of the...

Well, there's somebody who's right in front of us,

It's not a they. It's Michael. We can actually..

I want to see what you think Michael is actually up to.

I would say that the people who want to explain life without God

want a God-less universe because they don't want the baggage of Jesus Christ.

They don't want the sin, they don't want the judgement,

they don't want the other aspects of God involved in their life,

so they can live whatever way they choose,

and they can die whatever way they choose,

and they can go wherever they choose whenever they die, if anywhere.

To me, it seems extraordinary that, for hundreds of years,

scientists have concocted absolute nonsense just so we can do as we please.

There IS no conspiracy.

We've reached the end of a very long road,

and I'd like to know exactly where everyone stands now.

Is there anything that has specifically changed in your mind?

You know, I know now that there's a lot of research that I need to do.

I just want to know more and I think when I get home,

that's definitely something I'm going to look into.

I do think that, you know,

I believe in a young earth,

which is a bit nuts, but I'm down with that.

-That's fine as far as I'm concerned.

-Really?!

-Yeah, definitely.

ANDREW LAUGHS

You're a man of a thousand surprises.

Has there been anything that any of the scientists have said to you

that has changed your mind, opinions, beliefs in any way?

No. I mean, the Bible says you should always be ready to give answers,

and I thank God that he's raised up men who are capable of giving answers in their own specific fields.

There's nothing that has really been raised that I won't be able to get an answer to,

or didn't have an answer for at the time.

I think I've been the voice of reason throughout.

I think, um, it might sound a little bit conceited,

but I don't think...Christianity really did too well.

Erm, I don't think evolutionary theory did too well.

I think Islam made it out absolutely unscathed, I think.

So has anyone been moved by the experience?

Evolution - are you completely certain it didn't happen?

You know, my faith hasn't been moved, inasmuch as I believe in God,

but it doesn't mean to say that God could not have created or caused evolution.

-He used evolution as...?

-Yeah, absolutely.

Again, I'm not wanting to be closed off.

I mean, there's too much evidence.

I mean, you're looking at all the stuff and you're just like,

"Hang on a minute - how are people being so blinkered?"

I just... I don't want to be blinkered, I want to be open.

I'm really pleased JoJo has taken a step closer to my position -

that to have an open-hearted faith,

you've got to have an open mind as well.

I understand people have faith and I understand how people have faith,

because...if it is given its due regard,

it can bring an enormous amount of joy to people's lives.

But...

..my idea of God, you know, is a giant eternally loving being.

Like, he's either in all the texts, you know,

or he's in none of the texts.

He's either in the good faith that these scientists go about their work,

or he doesn't exist at all, you know what I mean?

There's either a God for all of us or there's a God for none of us, you know?

# How many roads must a man walk down before you call him a man?

# How many seas must the white dove sail before she sleeps in the sand?

# Yes, an' how many times must the cannonballs fly

# Before they're forever banned? #