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This programme contains some strong language | 0:00:02 | 0:00:06 | |
and scenes which some viewers may find upsetting | 0:00:06 | 0:00:10 | |
Jimmy, what are you up to? | 0:00:10 | 0:00:11 | |
'This footage is of a visit Jimmy Savile made | 0:00:14 | 0:00:17 | |
'to my house in 2001.' | 0:00:17 | 0:00:20 | |
Come and look at my exercise bike. | 0:00:20 | 0:00:22 | |
We'd had a friendly relationship | 0:00:29 | 0:00:31 | |
since making a documentary together the previous year. | 0:00:31 | 0:00:34 | |
# Ho ho ho | 0:00:34 | 0:00:35 | |
-# Ho ho ho -Ho ho ho | 0:00:35 | 0:00:37 | |
# Ho ho ho... # | 0:00:37 | 0:00:38 | |
One of my reasons for keeping in touch | 0:00:38 | 0:00:40 | |
was that I thought there was a side to him I hadn't seen. | 0:00:40 | 0:00:44 | |
All right, then. | 0:00:45 | 0:00:46 | |
-Thanks for coming by. -OK. Good morning. | 0:00:46 | 0:00:49 | |
And if you ever do need a place to crash in London, | 0:00:49 | 0:00:53 | |
you've seen you've got a room upstairs. | 0:00:53 | 0:00:54 | |
-I'm serious. -Thank you very much. I appreciated that. | 0:00:54 | 0:00:58 | |
I'm just going to check out that it's safe out here. | 0:00:58 | 0:01:00 | |
If I go out backwards, people will think I'm coming in. | 0:01:00 | 0:01:03 | |
There. | 0:01:05 | 0:01:06 | |
But I never found out the truth while he was alive. | 0:01:08 | 0:01:12 | |
-Good to see you. -Good. -All right. | 0:01:15 | 0:01:17 | |
Jimmy! Jimmy! Jimmy! | 0:01:18 | 0:01:21 | |
A report into how Jimmy Savile was able to abuse children | 0:01:40 | 0:01:43 | |
while working for the BBC is due to be published. | 0:01:43 | 0:01:45 | |
A leaked draft of Dame Janet Smith's report | 0:01:45 | 0:01:48 | |
criticised a culture of untouchable stars at the corporation. | 0:01:48 | 0:01:52 | |
Our media correspondent David Sillitoe can give us the latest. | 0:01:52 | 0:01:55 | |
David, what do we know so far? | 0:01:55 | 0:01:57 | |
Well, this is the box in which I keep my Jimmy Savile material. | 0:02:02 | 0:02:09 | |
So the background is I made this film... It's quite heavy. | 0:02:09 | 0:02:12 | |
..in 2000. When Louis Met Jimmy, and spent several weeks | 0:02:12 | 0:02:17 | |
over the course of a few months trying to get to know him. | 0:02:17 | 0:02:21 | |
-How's it going? Nice to meet you. -How are you? | 0:02:24 | 0:02:27 | |
Yeah, not too bad. How are you doing? | 0:02:28 | 0:02:30 | |
You're better looking than me, you'll have to go. | 0:02:30 | 0:02:32 | |
Anybody better looking than me, that's it. | 0:02:32 | 0:02:34 | |
Step this way. | 0:02:34 | 0:02:35 | |
-How are you feeling? -Regularly. How are you? | 0:02:35 | 0:02:37 | |
Not too bad. | 0:02:37 | 0:02:38 | |
Marvellous, I'm like a butcher's dog, as it happens, | 0:02:38 | 0:02:41 | |
and there's nothing more fitter and stronger than a butcher's dog. | 0:02:41 | 0:02:44 | |
-All the scraps, all the bones, all the hair. That's it. -Yeah. | 0:02:44 | 0:02:48 | |
15 years after I first met him, | 0:03:09 | 0:03:12 | |
and three years after the revelation of his vast offence history, | 0:03:12 | 0:03:16 | |
I decided to speak to some of the people who'd known Jimmy Savile. | 0:03:16 | 0:03:20 | |
His friends and his victims. | 0:03:20 | 0:03:23 | |
I wanted to try to understand | 0:03:23 | 0:03:25 | |
how he'd got away with his crimes for so long, | 0:03:25 | 0:03:29 | |
to see what clues there were in hindsight | 0:03:29 | 0:03:32 | |
'and make sense of my own failure to recognise him for what he was.' | 0:03:32 | 0:03:36 | |
I've come to wake you up. | 0:03:36 | 0:03:37 | |
That makes the searching documentaries of the world here... | 0:03:37 | 0:03:41 | |
-Hello. -Get back. Don't mind him. -Is Kat available? | 0:03:52 | 0:03:56 | |
-She is. -Shall we come in? -Yes. | 0:03:56 | 0:03:59 | |
How are you doing? Nice to meet you. | 0:03:59 | 0:04:02 | |
The first to speak out after he died had been an ex-pupil at Duncroft, | 0:04:05 | 0:04:10 | |
a boarding school for troubled teenage girls. | 0:04:10 | 0:04:14 | |
Her name was Kat Ward. | 0:04:14 | 0:04:16 | |
This is Duncroft, that was how Duncroft was. | 0:04:18 | 0:04:24 | |
I was sent there because I was in care in Norfolk. | 0:04:24 | 0:04:30 | |
And I kept running away. | 0:04:30 | 0:04:32 | |
So can you remember the first time | 0:04:32 | 0:04:37 | |
Jimmy Savile came to the school? | 0:04:37 | 0:04:39 | |
There was a level of excitement, I suppose. | 0:04:39 | 0:04:41 | |
-He was someone off the telly. -Oh, God, yes. | 0:04:41 | 0:04:43 | |
We'd all get excited about it. | 0:04:43 | 0:04:46 | |
Well, we'd wonder what he's going to bring this time. | 0:04:46 | 0:04:49 | |
Sometimes he brought records. I mean, he was a disc jockey | 0:04:49 | 0:04:52 | |
and he always came loaded with cigarettes. | 0:04:52 | 0:04:56 | |
Because, of course, back then all the girls smoked. | 0:04:56 | 0:04:59 | |
And some of the girls would get chosen to take a ride | 0:04:59 | 0:05:03 | |
in the Rolls with Jimmy. Is that right? | 0:05:03 | 0:05:06 | |
Yes. | 0:05:06 | 0:05:07 | |
BLEEPING | 0:05:07 | 0:05:09 | |
Did you have any inkling of what might be in store? | 0:05:16 | 0:05:20 | |
Had there been whispers? | 0:05:20 | 0:05:21 | |
There weren't whispers. We talked about it openly. | 0:05:21 | 0:05:26 | |
-About what he was after? -Yeah, yeah. | 0:05:26 | 0:05:28 | |
He had mainly been doing a bit of snogging, | 0:05:33 | 0:05:37 | |
sticking his tongue down your throat, | 0:05:37 | 0:05:40 | |
which was horrible because he tasted of those fat, smelly cigars, | 0:05:40 | 0:05:44 | |
and he liked to have a grope, if he could. | 0:05:44 | 0:05:47 | |
There was nothing to grope on my chest, but he did like to grope. | 0:05:50 | 0:05:54 | |
I think he preferred smaller breasts, actually. | 0:05:54 | 0:05:57 | |
What makes you say that? | 0:05:57 | 0:05:59 | |
Because the girls that he tended to select | 0:05:59 | 0:06:03 | |
tended to be on the slender and less developed side. | 0:06:03 | 0:06:11 | |
If I'm absolutely honest with you, | 0:06:20 | 0:06:22 | |
the abuse that I suffered at the hands of Jimmy Savile | 0:06:22 | 0:06:27 | |
was nothing compared to what had gone before. | 0:06:27 | 0:06:30 | |
-So... -From your stepfather? | 0:06:30 | 0:06:31 | |
Yeah, and my stepfather's friends. | 0:06:31 | 0:06:35 | |
By the time I was about ten, | 0:06:35 | 0:06:38 | |
I had decided that men were predators. | 0:06:38 | 0:06:42 | |
Men were bullies. | 0:06:42 | 0:06:45 | |
Men only wanted women for sexual favours. | 0:06:45 | 0:06:49 | |
So, because I was used to abuse... | 0:06:51 | 0:06:55 | |
This must sound awful. | 0:06:55 | 0:06:58 | |
Because I was more used to it, | 0:06:58 | 0:07:01 | |
I didn't find the sort of things that he asked for | 0:07:01 | 0:07:04 | |
to be peculiar, because by that time I had decided that, | 0:07:04 | 0:07:07 | |
well, that's what men do, all men. | 0:07:07 | 0:07:10 | |
You know, I can remember the first time that he wanted me | 0:07:12 | 0:07:15 | |
to fellate him and I was like, | 0:07:15 | 0:07:18 | |
"No, I don't want to, I don't want to." | 0:07:18 | 0:07:20 | |
So I gave him hand relief instead. | 0:07:22 | 0:07:25 | |
But then the next time he took me out and asked me to fellate him, | 0:07:25 | 0:07:30 | |
and I said, "I don't want to. I don't want to." | 0:07:30 | 0:07:32 | |
He said, "Look if you do, you can come to London | 0:07:32 | 0:07:35 | |
"and be on my television programme." | 0:07:35 | 0:07:37 | |
Morning all. Morning all. | 0:07:41 | 0:07:43 | |
Welcome to Clunk Clink. | 0:07:43 | 0:07:44 | |
How are we today? | 0:07:44 | 0:07:46 | |
Obviously if you, as a child, | 0:07:46 | 0:07:50 | |
have to fellate an adult, | 0:07:50 | 0:07:54 | |
there's a lot of gagging and retching | 0:07:54 | 0:07:58 | |
and quite often vomiting involved. | 0:07:58 | 0:08:02 | |
He flung the car door open and said, "Not in the car, not in the car." | 0:08:02 | 0:08:06 | |
Did you watch my documentary at the time? | 0:08:25 | 0:08:27 | |
-Yeah. -What did you make of it? | 0:08:27 | 0:08:29 | |
Um... | 0:08:29 | 0:08:30 | |
What were you expecting and what did you see? | 0:08:30 | 0:08:34 | |
My actual reaction was along the lines of, | 0:08:34 | 0:08:38 | |
"Poor Louis. | 0:08:38 | 0:08:41 | |
"He's really, really been hoodwinked here." | 0:08:41 | 0:08:45 | |
Sorry. | 0:08:48 | 0:08:49 | |
Sorry. | 0:08:51 | 0:08:52 | |
-It's an awful thing to say. -No, no, it's good to hear that. | 0:08:52 | 0:08:57 | |
After he died, I really had to take a step back | 0:08:57 | 0:09:01 | |
and examine my own conscience a little bit to think about, | 0:09:01 | 0:09:04 | |
"Well, what did I miss and what more could I have done?" | 0:09:04 | 0:09:09 | |
We can all look back now and say, "Why didn't we see that? | 0:09:09 | 0:09:13 | |
"Yeah, he told us what he was. | 0:09:13 | 0:09:18 | |
"And we didn't see it. Why didn't we see it?" | 0:09:18 | 0:09:20 | |
He was very clever. | 0:09:23 | 0:09:24 | |
The idea that he might have a secret | 0:09:35 | 0:09:37 | |
was one of the motivations behind my original documentary. | 0:09:37 | 0:09:41 | |
Like many, from my teenage years, I had heard unsavoury rumours | 0:09:45 | 0:09:49 | |
about Jimmy Savile. | 0:09:49 | 0:09:51 | |
From our first day together, | 0:09:51 | 0:09:53 | |
it was clear he enjoyed the perception | 0:09:53 | 0:09:55 | |
that no-one knew his private affairs. | 0:09:55 | 0:09:58 | |
-Do we not talk about that? -We can talk about anything. | 0:09:58 | 0:10:00 | |
-Prince Charles and Princess Diana. -That's right. Talk about anything. | 0:10:00 | 0:10:04 | |
You'll find out how tricky I am. Next. | 0:10:04 | 0:10:07 | |
Got him on the ropes. | 0:10:08 | 0:10:10 | |
I've got him on the ropes. He's on the ropes. | 0:10:10 | 0:10:12 | |
But as filming progressed, I saw that he was committing himself | 0:10:15 | 0:10:18 | |
to the documentary in ways I hadn't expected | 0:10:18 | 0:10:21 | |
from someone of his celebrity. | 0:10:21 | 0:10:23 | |
Whoa! | 0:10:25 | 0:10:26 | |
'Working long hours.' | 0:10:26 | 0:10:28 | |
Give me the bag, Jimmy. | 0:10:28 | 0:10:29 | |
'Staying overnight in a caravan in Scotland. | 0:10:29 | 0:10:33 | |
'Letting me sleep in his dead mother's bedroom. | 0:10:33 | 0:10:36 | |
'On one of our last days of filming, | 0:10:39 | 0:10:41 | |
'I'd asked about the rumours that swirled around him.' | 0:10:41 | 0:10:45 | |
It's easy for me, as a single man, to say, | 0:10:45 | 0:10:49 | |
"I don't like children." | 0:10:49 | 0:10:52 | |
Because that puts a lot of salacious tabloid people | 0:10:52 | 0:10:58 | |
off the hunt. | 0:10:58 | 0:11:00 | |
Are you basically saying that so tabloids don't pursue | 0:11:00 | 0:11:05 | |
this whole is he, isn't he a paedophile line, basically? | 0:11:05 | 0:11:08 | |
Yes. Yes. Yes. | 0:11:08 | 0:11:10 | |
Oh, aye. | 0:11:10 | 0:11:11 | |
How do they know whether I am or not? | 0:11:11 | 0:11:13 | |
How does anybody know whether I am? | 0:11:13 | 0:11:15 | |
Nobody knows whether I am or not. I know I'm not. | 0:11:15 | 0:11:17 | |
I can tell you from experience the easy way of doing it | 0:11:17 | 0:11:21 | |
when they say "All them children on Jim'll Fix It." | 0:11:21 | 0:11:23 | |
-"Yeah, hate them." -Yeah, | 0:11:23 | 0:11:25 | |
-To me, that sounds more sort of suspicious in a way... -Hard luck. | 0:11:25 | 0:11:30 | |
..because it seems so implausible. | 0:11:30 | 0:11:32 | |
-That's my policy. That's the way it goes. -Really? | 0:11:32 | 0:11:34 | |
'At the time it hadn't felt | 0:11:34 | 0:11:35 | |
'like a particularly revealing exchange.' | 0:11:35 | 0:11:38 | |
Ho, ho, ho. | 0:11:38 | 0:11:40 | |
And it's on until 10pm. | 0:11:40 | 0:11:42 | |
After the documentary went out, | 0:11:42 | 0:11:44 | |
I felt a degree of gratitude for the effort he'd put into it | 0:11:44 | 0:11:47 | |
and we kept in touch. | 0:11:47 | 0:11:49 | |
Here we go. What Jimmy and Louis did next. | 0:11:51 | 0:11:54 | |
"Welcome to the 21st century's strangest friendship." | 0:11:54 | 0:11:59 | |
"I found Jimmy rather defensive", says Louis. | 0:11:59 | 0:12:02 | |
"If someone came into your house and went through your stuff, | 0:12:02 | 0:12:04 | |
"what would you be?" rails Jimmy. | 0:12:04 | 0:12:06 | |
"But I tell you something - he found zilch. | 0:12:06 | 0:12:09 | |
"I'm not into white powder, I'm not into that underage shit. | 0:12:09 | 0:12:13 | |
"I'm a marathon runner and we're very boring people." | 0:12:13 | 0:12:16 | |
-JONATHAN ROSS: -Louis Theroux with us in the studio. | 0:12:23 | 0:12:25 | |
-Thank you for coming in. -Thanks for having me. | 0:12:25 | 0:12:27 | |
Like most of the country, I think, I'm intrigued | 0:12:27 | 0:12:29 | |
by what actually goes on in Jimmy's head, | 0:12:29 | 0:12:31 | |
in Jimmy's life, in Jimmy's house. | 0:12:31 | 0:12:33 | |
Was there any one thing you wanted to ask Jimmy when you were there | 0:12:33 | 0:12:36 | |
and you lost your nerve? | 0:12:36 | 0:12:37 | |
Well, it's hard to say. No, he's pretty much... | 0:12:37 | 0:12:40 | |
You can ask him almost anything. | 0:12:40 | 0:12:42 | |
He is a sexual enigma. | 0:12:42 | 0:12:43 | |
I still haven't really sorted out what's goes on there exactly. | 0:12:43 | 0:12:47 | |
Our association had lasted a number of years. | 0:12:55 | 0:12:58 | |
Jimmy Savile used to boast that he didn't have emotions. | 0:13:00 | 0:13:05 | |
But there are many people who knew him in a friendly way for decades. | 0:13:05 | 0:13:11 | |
I wondered if they might shed light on who he really was. | 0:13:11 | 0:13:14 | |
DOORBELL PLAYS JAUNTY TUNE | 0:13:27 | 0:13:31 | |
-Hi, Janet. -Good morning. -Louis. -Hello. -How do you do? | 0:13:33 | 0:13:37 | |
I'm better now I've seen you. Come in. | 0:13:37 | 0:13:39 | |
Shall I take these off? | 0:13:39 | 0:13:41 | |
Only if you're staying in. | 0:13:41 | 0:13:42 | |
What do you think? | 0:13:42 | 0:13:44 | |
Should we go into the garage and look at some of the stuff? | 0:13:44 | 0:13:47 | |
Yes. Right, I'll just get my coat. | 0:13:47 | 0:13:50 | |
-Yes. -Can I shut the door now? | 0:13:50 | 0:13:53 | |
-Course you can. You do what you want, Janet? -Cut. | 0:13:53 | 0:13:56 | |
Janet Cope was Jimmy Savile's PA. | 0:13:59 | 0:14:02 | |
Besides his mother, she probably spent more time with him | 0:14:02 | 0:14:06 | |
than any other woman. | 0:14:06 | 0:14:08 | |
This is your stuff that remains from when you were working with him | 0:14:08 | 0:14:12 | |
and you worked with him for about 28 years, didn't you? | 0:14:12 | 0:14:15 | |
Yeah, nearly 30. | 0:14:15 | 0:14:17 | |
"Dear Jimmy. I was enormously touched by your very kind letter. | 0:14:17 | 0:14:20 | |
"Yours sincerely, Prince Charles." | 0:14:20 | 0:14:24 | |
-There's one like that from Mrs Thatcher somewhere. -Is there? | 0:14:24 | 0:14:27 | |
Yeah. | 0:14:27 | 0:14:29 | |
-But he always remembered his team. -Yeah. | 0:14:29 | 0:14:32 | |
There wasn't anywhere I couldn't ring. | 0:14:32 | 0:14:34 | |
To get hold of Downing Street, | 0:14:34 | 0:14:36 | |
I had a direct line to Downing Street. | 0:14:36 | 0:14:39 | |
It's been quite hard finding close friends of his to speak now. | 0:14:39 | 0:14:44 | |
Yeah. He didn't have many close friends. | 0:14:44 | 0:14:49 | |
He found friends an incumbence. | 0:14:49 | 0:14:54 | |
He liked his freedom. He didn't want anything that weighed him down. | 0:14:54 | 0:14:58 | |
In a way a friendship is a two-way relationship. | 0:14:58 | 0:15:02 | |
-Yes. -And really, he wanted one-way relationships. | 0:15:02 | 0:15:07 | |
Yes. Which is why, I think, Jim and I got on so well. | 0:15:07 | 0:15:11 | |
He controlled things. | 0:15:11 | 0:15:13 | |
Not in a nasty way, but in a positive way. | 0:15:13 | 0:15:17 | |
He'd come over here for his dinner. | 0:15:17 | 0:15:20 | |
But he still had control over me, like what we ate, | 0:15:20 | 0:15:24 | |
the time he would arrive, the smoking indoors. | 0:15:24 | 0:15:29 | |
Oh, look! "After all this, it's got to be that." | 0:15:29 | 0:15:34 | |
What do you think about that? | 0:15:38 | 0:15:41 | |
Didn't worry me. Didn't think twice about it. | 0:15:41 | 0:15:44 | |
Well, for someone who advertised the fact | 0:15:44 | 0:15:47 | |
that he didn't have any emotions... | 0:15:47 | 0:15:49 | |
No, no, course he... | 0:15:49 | 0:15:51 | |
He loves me cos I'm convenient. | 0:15:51 | 0:15:53 | |
I think I know the answer to this. Did...? | 0:15:53 | 0:15:56 | |
No, I didn't love him. | 0:15:56 | 0:15:58 | |
Did you see the documentary I made with him? | 0:16:01 | 0:16:05 | |
Yeah. Yeah. I did. | 0:16:05 | 0:16:06 | |
Did you have any thoughts on it? | 0:16:06 | 0:16:09 | |
I laughed because I thought, | 0:16:09 | 0:16:10 | |
especially when you were in the back of that camper van | 0:16:10 | 0:16:13 | |
and he said he slept in it all night. | 0:16:13 | 0:16:14 | |
I thought, "Good old Louis, he's believed him." | 0:16:14 | 0:16:17 | |
-You think he didn't? -No, of course he didn't. | 0:16:17 | 0:16:19 | |
What makes you think he didn't? | 0:16:19 | 0:16:21 | |
Because he's a good liar. | 0:16:21 | 0:16:22 | |
He used to tell people how many marathons he'd done. | 0:16:24 | 0:16:27 | |
Every time he'd tell journalists the number of marathons he'd done, | 0:16:27 | 0:16:31 | |
the number was different. | 0:16:31 | 0:16:33 | |
But I had no proof and neither did anybody else, | 0:16:33 | 0:16:35 | |
because nobody checked up on it. | 0:16:35 | 0:16:37 | |
Did you feel that he had any sexual interests? | 0:16:39 | 0:16:44 | |
I used to tell people that he was asexual | 0:16:44 | 0:16:47 | |
because people always accused him of being gay and he wasn't gay. | 0:16:47 | 0:16:52 | |
But then he wasn't craving what I call female...closeness. | 0:16:52 | 0:17:00 | |
In my... Not that I ever saw or witnessed. Ever. | 0:17:00 | 0:17:03 | |
Jim fixed me. I remember that. | 0:17:09 | 0:17:11 | |
I read it at the time. | 0:17:11 | 0:17:13 | |
"For 28 years she was PA to the eccentric Savile. | 0:17:15 | 0:17:18 | |
"Even cooking and cleaning for him. | 0:17:18 | 0:17:20 | |
" 'Then one day', says Janet Cope, 'she was out, not with a warning | 0:17:20 | 0:17:23 | |
" 'and not even a thank you.' " | 0:17:23 | 0:17:25 | |
I was sick to death of hearing him say, "Put the kettle on." | 0:17:25 | 0:17:29 | |
Made the tea, took it in. Just put it all around the table. | 0:17:29 | 0:17:35 | |
And then he said... One thing led to another. I can't remember. | 0:17:35 | 0:17:38 | |
-He said, "She's going." -She's out. -She's out. | 0:17:38 | 0:17:44 | |
Pointing at you? | 0:17:44 | 0:17:45 | |
Yeah, well, I was... | 0:17:45 | 0:17:48 | |
I don't know how I felt, I was gobsmacked. | 0:17:48 | 0:17:52 | |
I went up to him and I just said, | 0:17:52 | 0:17:53 | |
"Jim, why have you done this to me? Why have you done this? | 0:17:53 | 0:17:56 | |
"I've lied for you. I've looked after you all this time. Why have you done this to me?" | 0:17:56 | 0:17:59 | |
He had a pile of papers in his hand. | 0:17:59 | 0:18:01 | |
He said, "Today's today, tomorrow's tomorrow. | 0:18:01 | 0:18:04 | |
"I've got a train to catch. End of." | 0:18:04 | 0:18:06 | |
He didn't understand other people's feelings. | 0:18:08 | 0:18:10 | |
He didn't. | 0:18:10 | 0:18:12 | |
He just didn't. | 0:18:12 | 0:18:14 | |
But then they weren't important to him, | 0:18:14 | 0:18:15 | |
so why should he understand them? | 0:18:15 | 0:18:17 | |
-Janet, you have been Jimmy's assistant for 20 years...? -Was. Was. | 0:18:23 | 0:18:27 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:18:27 | 0:18:28 | |
Before you leave his employ, can you tell us about it? | 0:18:28 | 0:18:31 | |
Yes, Jimmy has a dream and he usually makes dreams come true. | 0:18:31 | 0:18:34 | |
I couldn't help feeling that Janet too had been used by Jimmy Savile. | 0:18:34 | 0:18:38 | |
A provider of food and shelter and showing total loyalty | 0:18:41 | 0:18:44 | |
and yet without ever really getting close. | 0:18:44 | 0:18:49 | |
It was striking that someone could know him so well | 0:18:49 | 0:18:52 | |
while also knowing him barely at all. | 0:18:52 | 0:18:55 | |
In our time together, | 0:19:05 | 0:19:06 | |
Jimmy Savile had only entertained serious questions | 0:19:06 | 0:19:09 | |
about his private life on one occasion. | 0:19:09 | 0:19:13 | |
-Do they ever ask you to host it? -Not just now. | 0:19:13 | 0:19:16 | |
'During a visit to the flat in Scarborough he'd once shared | 0:19:16 | 0:19:19 | |
'with the only woman he'd ever said he loved.' | 0:19:19 | 0:19:22 | |
You said you have the Duchess's clothes? | 0:19:22 | 0:19:24 | |
-Yeah, artefacts. -Artefacts. -Artefacts. | 0:19:24 | 0:19:27 | |
'His mother, who he called the Duchess.' | 0:19:27 | 0:19:30 | |
My cleaner takes them out | 0:19:30 | 0:19:33 | |
and gets them cleaned and freshened up once... | 0:19:33 | 0:19:37 | |
about once a year. Now all this gear was gear she wore, | 0:19:37 | 0:19:40 | |
so instead of slinging it away, I thought I would hang on to it, | 0:19:40 | 0:19:42 | |
cos these make better souvenirs than photographs. | 0:19:42 | 0:19:46 | |
Look, it's all knitting, stuff like that. | 0:19:46 | 0:19:48 | |
Knitting. | 0:19:48 | 0:19:49 | |
Knitting. | 0:19:51 | 0:19:53 | |
-We both lived here. -Together? -Of course. | 0:19:53 | 0:19:55 | |
Did that not cramp your style a little bit? | 0:19:55 | 0:19:57 | |
No, not at all. | 0:19:57 | 0:19:59 | |
If you see over there on the horizon a caravan camp. | 0:19:59 | 0:20:02 | |
-Yeah. -I had a caravan there. | 0:20:02 | 0:20:04 | |
So that was the love nest. | 0:20:04 | 0:20:07 | |
It was my big chance to address the central question | 0:20:09 | 0:20:12 | |
of what his sexual interests were. | 0:20:12 | 0:20:14 | |
Do you mean to say that you've never, ever, ever had a girlfriend? | 0:20:14 | 0:20:18 | |
Friends that are girls, eight million. | 0:20:18 | 0:20:21 | |
Friends that are girls. Yeah. | 0:20:21 | 0:20:23 | |
But girlfriend in the sense of today, | 0:20:23 | 0:20:25 | |
ie, you are together, you don't bother with anyone else, et cetera - | 0:20:25 | 0:20:30 | |
no, never. | 0:20:30 | 0:20:32 | |
Never. | 0:20:33 | 0:20:34 | |
-Not even for like a week? -No. Not even for a week. No. | 0:20:34 | 0:20:39 | |
What strikes me looking back is that in describing large numbers | 0:20:45 | 0:20:48 | |
of fleeting encounters, | 0:20:48 | 0:20:50 | |
he was telling part of the truth, | 0:20:50 | 0:20:52 | |
leaving out that they involved child molestation, | 0:20:52 | 0:20:55 | |
rape and sexual assault. | 0:20:55 | 0:20:57 | |
A few weeks after the documentary aired in 2000, I received a letter. | 0:21:12 | 0:21:18 | |
It came from two women who described themselves | 0:21:18 | 0:21:20 | |
as girlfriends of Jimmy Savile. | 0:21:20 | 0:21:22 | |
"We watched your TV programme with great interest. | 0:21:24 | 0:21:27 | |
"It's a shame in your research you didn't find us | 0:21:27 | 0:21:29 | |
"and ask us some questions about Jim. | 0:21:29 | 0:21:31 | |
"We could have directed you as to how to tackle him | 0:21:31 | 0:21:34 | |
"and what to ask. | 0:21:34 | 0:21:36 | |
"Contrary to what Jim would like you to believe, | 0:21:36 | 0:21:38 | |
"Jim did have a lot of girlfriends, not girls that were just friends. | 0:21:38 | 0:21:41 | |
"We were two of them. All Jim's girlfriends knew each other. | 0:21:41 | 0:21:46 | |
"There was never jealousies. | 0:21:46 | 0:21:48 | |
"We're all enormous friends to this day." | 0:21:48 | 0:21:50 | |
I went along to meet them for tea in London. | 0:21:56 | 0:21:59 | |
They were in their mid-40s. | 0:22:02 | 0:22:04 | |
They described a long friendly relationship | 0:22:04 | 0:22:07 | |
that had start decades earlier at the BBC. | 0:22:07 | 0:22:09 | |
But knowing everything I know now about Jimmy Savile, | 0:22:14 | 0:22:18 | |
some details of what they told me are troubling. | 0:22:18 | 0:22:20 | |
I said to one of them, "How old were you?" | 0:22:23 | 0:22:26 | |
"You sound like Jimmy", she said, | 0:22:26 | 0:22:27 | |
"That's the first question he would always ask. How old are you?" | 0:22:27 | 0:22:31 | |
"Why?" I said, "Why do you think?" | 0:22:31 | 0:22:33 | |
If you extract the details, | 0:22:35 | 0:22:39 | |
it is predatory and... | 0:22:39 | 0:22:43 | |
inappropriate and unhealthy. | 0:22:43 | 0:22:45 | |
In fact, one of them had been 15 when she started the relationship, | 0:22:45 | 0:22:49 | |
so it is criminal. | 0:22:49 | 0:22:51 | |
But you've got the friendship and also their tone, | 0:22:52 | 0:22:55 | |
which was to do with affection. | 0:22:55 | 0:22:57 | |
At the time, I took the relationships to be symptomatic | 0:23:03 | 0:23:06 | |
of a different era, the show business world of the '60s and '70s. | 0:23:06 | 0:23:11 | |
In fact, in those early days at the BBC, | 0:23:21 | 0:23:24 | |
Jimmy Savile was involved in multiple sexual assaults. | 0:23:24 | 0:23:27 | |
Some involving children. | 0:23:27 | 0:23:29 | |
The shows he made gave him access to vulnerable youngsters... | 0:23:32 | 0:23:36 | |
and also the celebrity and the cache to win their trust. | 0:23:36 | 0:23:39 | |
Oh, don't go in the water. | 0:23:39 | 0:23:41 | |
-Hi, Gill. -Hi, Louis. | 0:23:41 | 0:23:42 | |
-Louis, how do you do? -How do you do? -Nice to meet you. | 0:23:42 | 0:23:45 | |
You too. | 0:23:45 | 0:23:46 | |
Do you come out here quite a bit. | 0:23:46 | 0:23:48 | |
'Gill Stribling-Wright, an ex-BBC producer, | 0:23:48 | 0:23:51 | |
'worked with him on and off for 30 years.' | 0:23:51 | 0:23:55 | |
What was your professional association with Jimmy Savile? | 0:23:55 | 0:23:59 | |
Well, I was a researcher on Jim'll Fix It | 0:23:59 | 0:24:03 | |
right from the beginning, | 0:24:03 | 0:24:04 | |
and before that, two series of a not very successful show | 0:24:04 | 0:24:09 | |
-called Clunk Click. -Did you also work on Top Of The Pops? | 0:24:09 | 0:24:13 | |
I worked on Top Of The Pops, yes. | 0:24:13 | 0:24:15 | |
Have you familiarised yourself with the various accounts | 0:24:15 | 0:24:21 | |
by victims of what happened in the reports that have come out? | 0:24:21 | 0:24:25 | |
No. I haven't read in detail the reports | 0:24:25 | 0:24:31 | |
-because I don't quite know what I'd do with it. -Hmm. | 0:24:31 | 0:24:35 | |
I didn't see anything. | 0:24:37 | 0:24:38 | |
I've done various interviews about it | 0:24:38 | 0:24:40 | |
and I really didn't see anything | 0:24:40 | 0:24:42 | |
that would give me cause for concern. | 0:24:42 | 0:24:44 | |
The music industry was like that, | 0:24:46 | 0:24:50 | |
sex and drugs and rock and roll. | 0:24:50 | 0:24:52 | |
People could get away with stuff, as much as they probably still do. | 0:24:52 | 0:24:56 | |
The small difference of this being a BBC studio, | 0:24:56 | 0:25:01 | |
-a BBC dressing room, basically a kids' show... -Right. | 0:25:01 | 0:25:04 | |
A kids' show that you were working on. | 0:25:04 | 0:25:06 | |
It always sounds shocking when people say they're not shocked | 0:25:09 | 0:25:12 | |
and horrified and dramatically overwhelmed by everything, | 0:25:12 | 0:25:15 | |
but, um...I wasn't. | 0:25:15 | 0:25:18 | |
I wonder if you would react slightly differently if you read the reports. | 0:25:19 | 0:25:23 | |
There's an accumulation of account which is... | 0:25:23 | 0:25:27 | |
There were words that you mentioned, | 0:25:27 | 0:25:29 | |
"horrifying", but which are actually justified. | 0:25:29 | 0:25:34 | |
And which you can only really appreciate | 0:25:34 | 0:25:37 | |
if you see the scale, if you try to comprehend the scale | 0:25:37 | 0:25:40 | |
of what went on. | 0:25:40 | 0:25:42 | |
It sounds when we talk about it like you're trying to... | 0:25:46 | 0:25:50 | |
I feel like I'm trying to justify why this thing happened | 0:25:50 | 0:25:54 | |
and why nobody did anything about it. | 0:25:54 | 0:25:56 | |
I mean, my relationship with Savile was very much in the workplace. | 0:26:02 | 0:26:05 | |
I didn't see him on any social occasions, | 0:26:05 | 0:26:08 | |
but then, as he once said to me, | 0:26:08 | 0:26:11 | |
I was a bit walnut-ish. I was in my mid-20s. | 0:26:11 | 0:26:15 | |
What did you take walnut-ish to mean? | 0:26:15 | 0:26:17 | |
A bit too old. | 0:26:17 | 0:26:19 | |
Because walnuts are sort of wrinkly? | 0:26:19 | 0:26:21 | |
-Wrinkly, exactly. -Brown and wrinkly. -Exactly. | 0:26:21 | 0:26:23 | |
Part of his persona was the fact | 0:26:26 | 0:26:28 | |
that he would tread very close to the line, | 0:26:28 | 0:26:31 | |
in hindsight, you realise now. | 0:26:31 | 0:26:32 | |
I once had a conversation with him about the perfect crime. | 0:26:37 | 0:26:40 | |
And he said, "The problem is it's not a perfect crime | 0:26:40 | 0:26:46 | |
"unless you can get the kudos for having committed the perfect crime, | 0:26:46 | 0:26:49 | |
"but the second you get the kudos for having committed | 0:26:49 | 0:26:51 | |
"the perfect crime, ie by telling somebody, | 0:26:51 | 0:26:54 | |
"it is then no longer the perfect crime." | 0:26:54 | 0:26:58 | |
I sometimes wonder if he was kind of teasing the world | 0:26:58 | 0:27:01 | |
in an effort to be discovered. | 0:27:01 | 0:27:03 | |
Here's another one. Louis's tip. | 0:27:23 | 0:27:26 | |
I think that's when he came into the office on one occasion. | 0:27:26 | 0:27:29 | |
In 2001, Jimmy Savile paid a visit to my BBC offices | 0:27:39 | 0:27:43 | |
for a short follow-up documentary. | 0:27:43 | 0:27:46 | |
-Good morning. -Hello. -How are you? | 0:27:50 | 0:27:52 | |
What a dreadful tip this is. | 0:27:52 | 0:27:54 | |
Dreadful tip. | 0:27:54 | 0:27:56 | |
He was dressed inappropriately, his behaviour was borderline creepy, | 0:27:56 | 0:28:01 | |
but at the time, like others, | 0:28:01 | 0:28:03 | |
I felt this was part of his comic persona. | 0:28:03 | 0:28:06 | |
Louis's tip. | 0:28:06 | 0:28:09 | |
Right. | 0:28:13 | 0:28:14 | |
Oh, my goodness! | 0:28:14 | 0:28:15 | |
Oh, yes! Yes! | 0:28:15 | 0:28:17 | |
Here. I hope that Mr Louis Theroux never comes. | 0:28:17 | 0:28:20 | |
That will do for me. | 0:28:20 | 0:28:22 | |
I would like to strip these girls, baring their secrets. | 0:28:22 | 0:28:24 | |
Mr Jimmy Savile, how are you doing? | 0:28:24 | 0:28:25 | |
You didn't jog all the way down, did you? | 0:28:25 | 0:28:27 | |
Where've you been? | 0:28:27 | 0:28:28 | |
This beautiful girl has just come in bearing gifts. | 0:28:28 | 0:28:31 | |
Thank you. You are very, very kind. | 0:28:31 | 0:28:33 | |
Can you walk away slowly, please? | 0:28:33 | 0:28:35 | |
Thank you. Now what I'm going to do, because I'm in the BBC, | 0:28:35 | 0:28:40 | |
I must now change. | 0:28:40 | 0:28:41 | |
You don't mind if I change here, do you? | 0:28:43 | 0:28:45 | |
Looking back he almost seems to be showing | 0:28:45 | 0:28:47 | |
how much he can get away with. | 0:28:47 | 0:28:50 | |
And daring us to challenge him. | 0:28:50 | 0:28:51 | |
Later, his conversation returned to a favourite theme | 0:28:54 | 0:28:58 | |
of how to deal with unwelcome attention from the tabloids. | 0:28:58 | 0:29:01 | |
Does it perturb you at all that you are actually in that category | 0:29:06 | 0:29:10 | |
where somebody can have a go at you? | 0:29:10 | 0:29:13 | |
They don't care whether it's right, wrong, true, false, | 0:29:13 | 0:29:15 | |
so long as they've got names, baby, they'll have a feast. | 0:29:15 | 0:29:19 | |
Say, for instance, you were interviewing me | 0:29:19 | 0:29:22 | |
on an allegation of something that was not nice, right? | 0:29:22 | 0:29:26 | |
And you said to me, you're alleged to have... | 0:29:26 | 0:29:30 | |
de-dum-de-dum-de-dum. | 0:29:30 | 0:29:31 | |
My answer would be, "It would be a lot worse if it were true." | 0:29:31 | 0:29:38 | |
Well... LOUIS CLEARS HIS THROAT | 0:29:39 | 0:29:42 | |
They do say no smoke without a fire, don't they? | 0:29:42 | 0:29:45 | |
After he died, there were numerous reports | 0:29:58 | 0:30:01 | |
detailing the scale of Jimmy Savile's offending. | 0:30:01 | 0:30:05 | |
They identified 326 victims, | 0:30:05 | 0:30:09 | |
describing a range of incidents, | 0:30:09 | 0:30:11 | |
from the relatively less serious to rape and child abuse. | 0:30:11 | 0:30:16 | |
72 victims involved the BBC. | 0:30:18 | 0:30:21 | |
177 were at hospitals. | 0:30:21 | 0:30:24 | |
"We know that your client has agreed not to pursue a claim | 0:30:24 | 0:30:27 | |
-"against this newspaper." -That's right. | 0:30:27 | 0:30:29 | |
They said that I was derogatory to patients. | 0:30:29 | 0:30:33 | |
Right. Which I wasn't. And so they agreed that I wasn't | 0:30:33 | 0:30:37 | |
and they said, "We have made a mistake, | 0:30:37 | 0:30:39 | |
"kindly take this nice few quid." | 0:30:39 | 0:30:41 | |
That seems a bit rich, given how much... | 0:30:41 | 0:30:43 | |
I mean for them to accuse you of being derogatory to patients | 0:30:43 | 0:30:46 | |
-given how much money you raise. -That's why they all pay up. | 0:30:46 | 0:30:48 | |
-Do they? -Oh, aye. | 0:30:48 | 0:30:50 | |
Cherie Wheatcroft was a patient at Stoke Mandeville in 1973. | 0:31:01 | 0:31:06 | |
DOORBELL BUZZES | 0:31:06 | 0:31:08 | |
Hello. Louis. | 0:31:10 | 0:31:12 | |
-How do you do? -How do you do? Nice to meet you. -Hello, hello. | 0:31:12 | 0:31:15 | |
-Come in. -Thank you. | 0:31:15 | 0:31:16 | |
How do you like to say your name? Che-ree or Cher-ee? | 0:31:16 | 0:31:19 | |
-Are you Clive? -Hi. -Louis. | 0:31:19 | 0:31:21 | |
-Very pleased to meet you. -Nice to meet you. | 0:31:21 | 0:31:23 | |
-Are these all your paintings? -Yes. | 0:31:23 | 0:31:24 | |
That's what I spend most of my time doing. | 0:31:24 | 0:31:27 | |
Painting all day and actually all night, mostly. | 0:31:27 | 0:31:31 | |
-They're beautiful. -Thank you. -Very nice. | 0:31:31 | 0:31:33 | |
There's a lot of James Blunt pictures. | 0:31:33 | 0:31:35 | |
Well, I did... | 0:31:35 | 0:31:38 | |
Do you specialise in him? | 0:31:38 | 0:31:39 | |
No. | 0:31:39 | 0:31:41 | |
Basically, my daughter was a big fan and she introduced me to him. | 0:31:41 | 0:31:45 | |
We went to see him. | 0:31:45 | 0:31:47 | |
Believe it or not, James Blunt came at the side of me | 0:31:47 | 0:31:50 | |
and I got pushed into him. | 0:31:50 | 0:31:52 | |
-Look at that. That's brilliant. -Yeah. | 0:31:52 | 0:31:54 | |
All right? | 0:31:58 | 0:31:59 | |
Do you consider yourself to have been a victim? | 0:32:03 | 0:32:05 | |
Are you happy with that term? | 0:32:05 | 0:32:07 | |
Em...yeah. | 0:32:07 | 0:32:08 | |
I would never let my children watch him on television. | 0:32:12 | 0:32:14 | |
As soon as anything came on about him, | 0:32:14 | 0:32:17 | |
I would turn the television off. | 0:32:17 | 0:32:18 | |
When Jim'll Fix It was on? | 0:32:18 | 0:32:20 | |
Yeah, anything like that. | 0:32:20 | 0:32:21 | |
But you said you watched the documentary I made in 2000? | 0:32:23 | 0:32:26 | |
Yes, I did watch that. | 0:32:26 | 0:32:28 | |
So what did you...? What was the feeling of...? | 0:32:28 | 0:32:30 | |
I was just really, really annoyed. I was, like, fuming. | 0:32:30 | 0:32:33 | |
I just thought, "Oh, he's a silly chap, | 0:32:33 | 0:32:35 | |
"he doesn't know what goes on. He doesn't know. | 0:32:35 | 0:32:38 | |
"So gullible." You know? | 0:32:38 | 0:32:40 | |
Why have you written my name and address on this pad? | 0:32:40 | 0:32:42 | |
Because I never know whether you existed or not. | 0:32:42 | 0:32:46 | |
Yeah. How did you get the address? | 0:32:46 | 0:32:48 | |
-I get anything, me. -How did you get it, though? | 0:32:48 | 0:32:50 | |
I can get anything. There's nothing I can't get | 0:32:50 | 0:32:54 | |
and there's nothing I can't do. | 0:32:54 | 0:32:55 | |
Thank you. | 0:32:55 | 0:32:57 | |
You felt that I was gullible and silly? | 0:32:57 | 0:32:59 | |
Mm, oh, yeah. | 0:32:59 | 0:33:00 | |
You were young. And he was like, "I'm the celebrity. | 0:33:00 | 0:33:06 | |
"I'm... I'm big." You know. | 0:33:06 | 0:33:10 | |
And then that just came over that he was manipulating things. | 0:33:10 | 0:33:14 | |
What has been difficult is realising that... | 0:33:14 | 0:33:20 | |
I failed to get to the truth about him and that I wasn't able to do | 0:33:20 | 0:33:24 | |
more to kind of bring him to account while he was still alive. | 0:33:24 | 0:33:27 | |
Well, he was so good at disguising everything. | 0:33:27 | 0:33:29 | |
I was at school doing A-levels. But all hell went loose because | 0:33:34 | 0:33:41 | |
I found out I was pregnant. | 0:33:41 | 0:33:42 | |
I was too scared to let my parents know about it, and I had it | 0:33:44 | 0:33:48 | |
on January 18th and they didn't know. | 0:33:48 | 0:33:51 | |
I just wanted to go home. And there was a huge electric | 0:33:51 | 0:33:55 | |
two-bar fire behind the door, and I fell on it, | 0:33:55 | 0:33:59 | |
like this. So I remember looking at my hands and just fainting. | 0:33:59 | 0:34:04 | |
And then I didn't know where I was going, of course. | 0:34:08 | 0:34:12 | |
I just remember seeing trees go by. | 0:34:12 | 0:34:14 | |
I got to the hospital and obviously started to come round. | 0:34:18 | 0:34:23 | |
I couldn't use my hands. They were all bandaged up. | 0:34:26 | 0:34:30 | |
And I was sitting on the end of my bed and I was just | 0:34:30 | 0:34:33 | |
looking out the window, as I am now... | 0:34:33 | 0:34:35 | |
..and I saw somebody just running, but as they were running, | 0:34:37 | 0:34:43 | |
they looked at me, and of course I was looking at them. | 0:34:43 | 0:34:47 | |
And their run... They changed course. | 0:34:47 | 0:34:50 | |
And the eyes fixed on me. And they started running directly towards me. | 0:34:53 | 0:34:59 | |
And the next minute, the person tried to climb in the window. | 0:35:02 | 0:35:06 | |
And I just couldn't believe it. I was like | 0:35:07 | 0:35:09 | |
in shock, and he was climbing in, and by the | 0:35:09 | 0:35:13 | |
time he got down, jumped down, he was then | 0:35:13 | 0:35:16 | |
smiling but came straight at me. | 0:35:16 | 0:35:19 | |
Went to kiss me and stuck his tongue right down my throat. | 0:35:19 | 0:35:22 | |
Went for my face. Obviously, I couldn't use my hands. | 0:35:22 | 0:35:25 | |
Held my face and put his tongue right down my throat. | 0:35:25 | 0:35:29 | |
And it wasn't just quick. It went on and on. | 0:35:29 | 0:35:32 | |
And then he started jabbering. | 0:35:32 | 0:35:34 | |
"You've been a naughty girl, haven't you? | 0:35:35 | 0:35:37 | |
"You've been a naughty girl, haven't you? | 0:35:37 | 0:35:40 | |
"You've been a naughty girl with your boyfriend, haven't you?" | 0:35:40 | 0:35:45 | |
He just kept on repeating. It wasn't just, like, | 0:35:45 | 0:35:48 | |
going on to one sentence and then another. He just kept repeating it. | 0:35:48 | 0:35:50 | |
Because I didn't answer, he kept repeating it. | 0:35:50 | 0:35:53 | |
And there was things coming out about my health | 0:36:00 | 0:36:02 | |
and previous things, and I thought... | 0:36:02 | 0:36:04 | |
Straight away I knew that he'd seen my health record. | 0:36:04 | 0:36:07 | |
Something gave me the idea that he'd seen my health records or that he'd | 0:36:07 | 0:36:11 | |
spoken to the head surgeon, as well, whatever, | 0:36:11 | 0:36:13 | |
or somebody had told him that I'm on my own in there. | 0:36:13 | 0:36:17 | |
It sort of suggests that he had scoped you out. | 0:36:19 | 0:36:23 | |
I mean, I don't want to compare | 0:36:23 | 0:36:25 | |
something hideous that you went through to | 0:36:25 | 0:36:27 | |
something trivial, but in my documentary | 0:36:27 | 0:36:30 | |
there's a moment when he shows me a bit of paper | 0:36:30 | 0:36:32 | |
with my address on it, which was ex-directory | 0:36:32 | 0:36:34 | |
and therefore not easy to get hold of, that led | 0:36:34 | 0:36:37 | |
me to believe that he had somehow finagled his way into... | 0:36:37 | 0:36:40 | |
or knew someone with access to my... You know, some civil servant. | 0:36:40 | 0:36:45 | |
I think he probably did. | 0:36:45 | 0:36:47 | |
You've been with Clive about 20 years, did you say? | 0:36:47 | 0:36:50 | |
-Yes. -And I imagine you spoke to Clive about | 0:36:50 | 0:36:53 | |
-the Jimmy Savile incidents? -Oh, yes, yes. -You knew about that before? | 0:36:53 | 0:36:57 | |
I've known about it in fleeting parts, only when Cherie has | 0:36:57 | 0:37:04 | |
-opened up about it. -Mm-hm. | 0:37:04 | 0:37:05 | |
The most current question that people ask, I have | 0:37:05 | 0:37:09 | |
noticed, is "Why didn't you say something about it?" | 0:37:09 | 0:37:13 | |
I'm furious with myself, as well. | 0:37:13 | 0:37:15 | |
Why on earth didn't I just go up to somebody | 0:37:15 | 0:37:20 | |
and complain and make a thing of it? | 0:37:20 | 0:37:22 | |
But you were scared to. He'd got money, influence. | 0:37:22 | 0:37:26 | |
You know, that whole thing, you were, you know, | 0:37:26 | 0:37:29 | |
you were just, like, scared to say anything, you know. | 0:37:29 | 0:37:33 | |
'In 2000, Jimmy Savile had taken me to | 0:37:46 | 0:37:48 | |
'the hospital where he'd once abused Cherie. | 0:37:48 | 0:37:51 | |
'Throughout the '70s and afterwards, he'd continued | 0:37:51 | 0:37:54 | |
'to visit, raising millions for a new building.' | 0:37:54 | 0:37:58 | |
So, where are we, in fact? This is the Stoke Mandeville | 0:37:58 | 0:38:01 | |
spinal injuries centre? | 0:38:01 | 0:38:03 | |
No, this is the National Spinal Injuries Centre | 0:38:03 | 0:38:06 | |
at Stoke Mandeville Hospital. | 0:38:06 | 0:38:07 | |
'Is this the jewel in the crown of the Jimmy Savile accomplishments?' | 0:38:07 | 0:38:11 | |
I would have said it's the biggest. Yes. | 0:38:11 | 0:38:13 | |
How does it make you feel, walking through these | 0:38:13 | 0:38:15 | |
corridors which you were instrumental in building? | 0:38:15 | 0:38:18 | |
Well, seeing as they've been open for 20 years, | 0:38:18 | 0:38:20 | |
I don't feel anything now. Just nice and happy that it's here. | 0:38:20 | 0:38:24 | |
'At the time, amid all his bizarre qualities, Jimmy Savile's | 0:38:28 | 0:38:32 | |
'charitable work had felt like his great redeeming feature. | 0:38:32 | 0:38:35 | |
'In hindsight, it was a smokescreen for his abuse | 0:38:39 | 0:38:42 | |
'and a way of getting access to vulnerable people. | 0:38:42 | 0:38:45 | |
'I was curious to meet someone from the hospital | 0:38:51 | 0:38:54 | |
'and to hear how they made sense of it all now, looking back. | 0:38:54 | 0:38:57 | |
'Sylvia Nicol worked closely with Jimmy Savile on the | 0:39:00 | 0:39:03 | |
'Stoke Mandeville appeal.' | 0:39:03 | 0:39:05 | |
-Hi. Sylvia? Louis. -Yes! Hello, Louis! | 0:39:07 | 0:39:10 | |
-Can I come in? -Yeah, I'll let you come in! -You'll let me? OK. | 0:39:10 | 0:39:14 | |
-I will. -Thank you. | 0:39:14 | 0:39:17 | |
-Is that you there? -Yeah, that's me. That's Jan, me and Marie-Ann. | 0:39:17 | 0:39:24 | |
In what capacity were you working when you first met him? | 0:39:24 | 0:39:28 | |
As a medical secretary, at the NHS | 0:39:28 | 0:39:31 | |
in the spinal centre at Stoke Mandeville Hospital. | 0:39:31 | 0:39:35 | |
He came to Stoke in '69, and it was | 0:39:36 | 0:39:42 | |
to do a walk for the Red Cross. And he stayed. | 0:39:42 | 0:39:45 | |
He basically made our office a bit of a base. | 0:39:45 | 0:39:49 | |
It was 2nd January 1980. | 0:39:54 | 0:39:58 | |
We had a really bad snowstorm. | 0:39:58 | 0:40:01 | |
All our ceilings were caving in. They were wooden huts built in 1943. | 0:40:01 | 0:40:07 | |
The lights were full of water | 0:40:07 | 0:40:09 | |
as the snow was melting, you know, that deep, | 0:40:09 | 0:40:11 | |
and it was chaos. | 0:40:11 | 0:40:14 | |
And Dr Silver then phoned Jim. | 0:40:14 | 0:40:17 | |
"You must come, you must come. You've got to do something." | 0:40:17 | 0:40:20 | |
And Jim did. And within two days, we were flooded with letters | 0:40:20 | 0:40:27 | |
into Stoke Mandeville. | 0:40:27 | 0:40:29 | |
Just "Jimmy Savile, Stoke Mandeville Hospital" is all it would say. | 0:40:29 | 0:40:33 | |
And in it would be cheques and money, fluffy toys, | 0:40:33 | 0:40:39 | |
-everything came in. -And when did it open, do you recall? | 0:40:39 | 0:40:42 | |
1983, August 3rd was the opening day. | 0:40:43 | 0:40:48 | |
-That was where Prince Charles and Princess Diana came along? -Yeah. | 0:40:48 | 0:40:53 | |
Prince Charles went to Stoke Mandeville Hospital | 0:40:53 | 0:40:56 | |
in Buckinghamshire today to open a new unit, and even | 0:40:56 | 0:40:58 | |
though it wasn't planned, he took his wife along with him. | 0:40:58 | 0:41:01 | |
Only I know the real reason the princess is here, and I must say | 0:41:01 | 0:41:05 | |
it's a complicated way of getting a request played on Radio 1. | 0:41:05 | 0:41:09 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:41:09 | 0:41:11 | |
When I said that it cost £10 million, | 0:41:11 | 0:41:15 | |
how on earth do you raise £10 million in three years? | 0:41:15 | 0:41:20 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:41:20 | 0:41:23 | |
-Oh, my goodness. -You can get it out, if you can. -Yeah. | 0:41:27 | 0:41:32 | |
-Can I? There it is. -There it is. | 0:41:32 | 0:41:36 | |
So this picture, when people said, | 0:41:36 | 0:41:38 | |
"Have you got anything you can give us when we send you money in?" | 0:41:38 | 0:41:45 | |
we sent them this, quite a big photograph, probably | 0:41:45 | 0:41:48 | |
that big, of Jim, rolled up. | 0:41:48 | 0:41:51 | |
As a thank you for donations, yeah. | 0:41:51 | 0:41:54 | |
There's the Lego. And, as you can see, it's the same colouring. | 0:41:55 | 0:41:59 | |
-Who did that? -Lego. -Lego did it? -Legoland sent us that. | 0:41:59 | 0:42:04 | |
Everything just came to him. It was an unbelievable experience, | 0:42:04 | 0:42:11 | |
that appeal. | 0:42:11 | 0:42:14 | |
Now, every morning I open this door and say, "Why don't you do | 0:42:14 | 0:42:20 | |
-"something about all this?" -You do? -I do. | 0:42:20 | 0:42:25 | |
I can see him. I don't quite cover his face, | 0:42:25 | 0:42:29 | |
and I say, "Why don't you do something about all this?" | 0:42:29 | 0:42:31 | |
Because I reckoned he could do anything. | 0:42:31 | 0:42:33 | |
Do something about what? | 0:42:33 | 0:42:36 | |
This...what's...furore that's arisen since he died. | 0:42:36 | 0:42:41 | |
-Do you really do that? -I really do that. -Why do you do that? | 0:42:41 | 0:42:45 | |
I don't know. I don't know. Because what else can you do? You can't... | 0:42:45 | 0:42:49 | |
I did pray to God a little bit, occasionally. Sort of said, | 0:42:51 | 0:42:56 | |
"Why is all this happening?" | 0:42:56 | 0:42:59 | |
Because it was just...shattering. | 0:43:00 | 0:43:04 | |
So, basically, am I right in thinking you don't really believe | 0:43:08 | 0:43:13 | |
that, um... | 0:43:13 | 0:43:14 | |
..he raped, abused, molested? | 0:43:16 | 0:43:18 | |
No, I've never said that I don't believe that. | 0:43:18 | 0:43:22 | |
I've made an absolute point of saying | 0:43:22 | 0:43:27 | |
I only saw the good in Jimmy Savile. | 0:43:27 | 0:43:32 | |
I never saw anything in that line. | 0:43:32 | 0:43:36 | |
And had I seen anything in that line, I would | 0:43:36 | 0:43:40 | |
have been the first to report it. | 0:43:40 | 0:43:42 | |
I believe that you didn't see anything like that. | 0:43:42 | 0:43:45 | |
-I didn't see anything like that either. -Nor hear anything like that. | 0:43:45 | 0:43:48 | |
But I also have to, erm... | 0:43:48 | 0:43:50 | |
..believe those accounts and... | 0:43:51 | 0:43:55 | |
try to square them with... the person that I thought I knew. | 0:43:55 | 0:44:00 | |
But you didn't know him for as long as I did. | 0:44:02 | 0:44:06 | |
We've had a pretty ghastly time. | 0:44:06 | 0:44:09 | |
Go on. | 0:44:09 | 0:44:11 | |
I'm a victim, his family are victims | 0:44:11 | 0:44:15 | |
as much as anyone else would be a victim. | 0:44:15 | 0:44:18 | |
Who or what are you a victim of? | 0:44:18 | 0:44:21 | |
I'm a victim of... losing those memories. | 0:44:23 | 0:44:27 | |
And that is quite a big thing out of your life... | 0:44:29 | 0:44:33 | |
..because when you get older, your memories do become more important. | 0:44:34 | 0:44:40 | |
And that was many years of memories. | 0:44:40 | 0:44:42 | |
He wasn't a friend to me, he was a friend to what I'd... | 0:44:43 | 0:44:49 | |
..spent 50 years of my life with, which is the spinal centre. | 0:44:50 | 0:44:55 | |
And... | 0:44:56 | 0:44:57 | |
we wouldn't have a spinal centre there now but for Jimmy, | 0:44:57 | 0:45:02 | |
which would mean we wouldn't have a lot of people still alive. | 0:45:02 | 0:45:08 | |
-Look in the corner. -Oh, yeah. | 0:45:10 | 0:45:12 | |
You needn't film that, but I'm not going to get rid of it. | 0:45:12 | 0:45:16 | |
-Can I take it out? -Yeah. | 0:45:16 | 0:45:18 | |
Past... | 0:45:18 | 0:45:20 | |
-This one? -Hmm. | 0:45:21 | 0:45:23 | |
It's been there for years. It's been there for... | 0:45:23 | 0:45:26 | |
It was Jim on one of his cruises. | 0:45:26 | 0:45:31 | |
That one can go back there. That's discreet. | 0:45:33 | 0:45:38 | |
So I try to only know, and I do know, | 0:45:39 | 0:45:44 | |
that I only saw good. | 0:45:44 | 0:45:46 | |
And that's all I can ever say about this. | 0:45:47 | 0:45:51 | |
Sylvia seemed a stark example of how Jimmy Savile | 0:45:57 | 0:46:01 | |
was able to win the good opinion of well-meaning people. | 0:46:01 | 0:46:04 | |
'In the two years after my documentary, | 0:46:09 | 0:46:12 | |
'I made three or four visits up to Leeds. | 0:46:12 | 0:46:15 | |
'There was always a professional reason, | 0:46:15 | 0:46:17 | |
'recording DVD inserts or doing press for shows. | 0:46:17 | 0:46:21 | |
'And I continued to be tantalised by whether the mask might slip.' | 0:46:21 | 0:46:26 | |
It's all right, no sweat. | 0:46:26 | 0:46:28 | |
'But there was also a social dimension - | 0:46:28 | 0:46:31 | |
'a part of me had come to see him as something like a friend...' | 0:46:31 | 0:46:34 | |
Don't think I've ever been here in the summer before. | 0:46:34 | 0:46:37 | |
Yeah, me neither. | 0:46:37 | 0:46:38 | |
What's happening now? | 0:46:38 | 0:46:40 | |
I'm just getting you the attention you deserve. | 0:46:40 | 0:46:43 | |
'..while he had begun taking a proprietary interest in my career.' | 0:46:46 | 0:46:50 | |
Your future is safe in my hands. | 0:46:56 | 0:46:58 | |
Not only is your future safe, it's also glittering. | 0:46:58 | 0:47:01 | |
We would visit a local restaurant called the Flying Pizza. | 0:47:07 | 0:47:11 | |
-All right, my pleasure. -See you later. | 0:47:11 | 0:47:14 | |
SAVILE LAUGHS | 0:47:22 | 0:47:24 | |
These images now make for uncomfortable viewing. | 0:47:28 | 0:47:31 | |
In fact, the mother and daughter were known to Jimmy Savile | 0:47:32 | 0:47:37 | |
but it's striking, looking back now, | 0:47:37 | 0:47:39 | |
how he normalised physically invasive behaviour, | 0:47:39 | 0:47:42 | |
constantly blurring the line of what he was permitted to do. | 0:47:42 | 0:47:46 | |
She said, "I love your programmes," | 0:47:51 | 0:47:53 | |
and the other one goes, "I think they're boring." | 0:47:53 | 0:47:55 | |
SAVILE LAUGHS | 0:47:55 | 0:47:56 | |
That's true. She said, "I think they're boring." | 0:47:56 | 0:47:59 | |
I know. | 0:47:59 | 0:48:00 | |
-Going home? -Yes, please. | 0:48:02 | 0:48:04 | |
-Still got the Flying Pizza name on it. -It is. | 0:48:09 | 0:48:11 | |
-It's Saint Carlo Flying Pizza. -Yeah. | 0:48:11 | 0:48:14 | |
Let's hop out. | 0:48:14 | 0:48:15 | |
It's actually quite an unprepossessing building, isn't it? | 0:48:19 | 0:48:24 | |
I was back in Jimmy Savile's hometown of Leeds | 0:48:26 | 0:48:29 | |
for the first time since being there with him. | 0:48:29 | 0:48:32 | |
'I was with Susan, a woman who'd met him in the '70s, | 0:48:36 | 0:48:40 | |
'and still lives close to his old stomping ground.' | 0:48:40 | 0:48:43 | |
So you'd actually met him on these two occasions, | 0:48:43 | 0:48:46 | |
is that right? | 0:48:46 | 0:48:48 | |
Yes, the first time when I tested his eyes, | 0:48:48 | 0:48:50 | |
and the second when I delivered the specs. | 0:48:50 | 0:48:53 | |
I think it was 1972. | 0:48:53 | 0:48:55 | |
-ANNOUNCER: -Jimmy Savile! | 0:48:55 | 0:48:57 | |
CHEERING AND APPLAUSE | 0:48:57 | 0:49:00 | |
He used to wear great big plastic glasses. | 0:49:03 | 0:49:07 | |
And I remember the manager called and said, | 0:49:09 | 0:49:11 | |
"Your specs are ready," | 0:49:11 | 0:49:12 | |
and that's when he said to the manager, | 0:49:12 | 0:49:14 | |
"Send the one with the big knockers and the short skirt." | 0:49:14 | 0:49:17 | |
That was how I looked when I was about 21, 22, | 0:49:19 | 0:49:23 | |
so that's... | 0:49:23 | 0:49:25 | |
-That's who you were at that time? -That's who I was. | 0:49:25 | 0:49:27 | |
In those days, one of my main features was my boobs | 0:49:27 | 0:49:30 | |
and I always got teased about them so, yeah, | 0:49:30 | 0:49:34 | |
when he said, "Send the one with the big knockers and short skirt," | 0:49:34 | 0:49:36 | |
it didn't mean anything. | 0:49:36 | 0:49:38 | |
-You know, I never thought anything of it. -Yeah. | 0:49:38 | 0:49:40 | |
-Evidently, because you went. -Because I went, in a taxi. | 0:49:40 | 0:49:43 | |
Clutching a pair of specs, knocked on his door and in I went. | 0:49:45 | 0:49:49 | |
And then went through into this really shabby back-to-back terrace, | 0:49:50 | 0:49:55 | |
down Consort Terrace it was. | 0:49:55 | 0:49:57 | |
So, "Jimmy Savile guided tours of Leeds". | 0:49:58 | 0:50:01 | |
-I didn't know they were doing that. -Gosh! | 0:50:01 | 0:50:03 | |
That was April 2012. That can't have lasted very long. | 0:50:05 | 0:50:08 | |
Yeah, now I look at it, | 0:50:18 | 0:50:20 | |
I can remember going up the steps and ringing the bell. | 0:50:20 | 0:50:22 | |
And it was just disgusting, it was filthy. | 0:50:24 | 0:50:27 | |
Clothes... His tracksuits all over the floor. | 0:50:27 | 0:50:29 | |
Empty cereal packets everywhere. Just dirty. | 0:50:29 | 0:50:34 | |
So then what happened? | 0:50:34 | 0:50:36 | |
So then I took the glasses out of the box, | 0:50:36 | 0:50:39 | |
and I must have stood obviously fairly near him, | 0:50:39 | 0:50:42 | |
like this, to put the specs on, | 0:50:42 | 0:50:45 | |
and that's when he grabbed my boobs | 0:50:45 | 0:50:47 | |
and he actually stuck his tongue in my mouth. | 0:50:47 | 0:50:50 | |
And then as I stood back, he dropped his tracksuit bottoms | 0:50:50 | 0:50:54 | |
and said, "How's about that, then?" | 0:50:54 | 0:50:56 | |
And there was his...pink, wrinkly willy, as I described it. | 0:50:56 | 0:51:01 | |
And he said, "How's about that, then?" | 0:51:01 | 0:51:02 | |
Yeah, cos that was his phrase. | 0:51:02 | 0:51:04 | |
-That was his catchphrase. -That was his catchphrase, yeah. | 0:51:04 | 0:51:08 | |
And then he just sort of got on with the rest, | 0:51:14 | 0:51:17 | |
put the glasses on, did... | 0:51:17 | 0:51:19 | |
Pulled his tracksuit bottoms back up? | 0:51:19 | 0:51:21 | |
Pulled his tracksuit bottoms back up, | 0:51:21 | 0:51:23 | |
and then just carried on as though nothing had happened. | 0:51:23 | 0:51:26 | |
Put the glasses on, and then he did this very brief interview | 0:51:26 | 0:51:29 | |
on a reel-to-reel tape thing, I think it was. | 0:51:29 | 0:51:32 | |
Having just exposed himself to you, | 0:51:32 | 0:51:35 | |
-he said, "Do you want to be on my radio programme?" -Yeah. | 0:51:35 | 0:51:40 | |
Yeah, and of course, I'm there with this famous person, | 0:51:40 | 0:51:44 | |
so I said, "Yeah, OK." | 0:51:44 | 0:51:47 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:51:52 | 0:51:55 | |
This afternoon, as we celebrate Jimmy Savile's requiem mass, | 0:52:05 | 0:52:11 | |
it is our belief that although his body is stilled in death, | 0:52:11 | 0:52:17 | |
his flamboyant and generous soul lives on. | 0:52:17 | 0:52:23 | |
I listened to Radio Leeds, and they wanted people to come forward | 0:52:24 | 0:52:27 | |
with stories about Jimmy Savile, | 0:52:27 | 0:52:29 | |
so I put forward that I'd tested his eyes as a student | 0:52:29 | 0:52:33 | |
and that's where I stopped the story. | 0:52:33 | 0:52:36 | |
-DJ: -"Back in 1972, I was a very inexperienced student optometrist. | 0:52:36 | 0:52:41 | |
"I had to test Jimmy's eyes. | 0:52:41 | 0:52:43 | |
"I later then delivered his new specs to his home, | 0:52:43 | 0:52:46 | |
"which was full of tracksuits, bling and packets of cornflakes!" | 0:52:46 | 0:52:51 | |
-CHUCKLING: -That's a great story, that! | 0:52:51 | 0:52:53 | |
Thank you very much indeed for that, Susan, I enjoyed reading that! | 0:52:53 | 0:52:57 | |
Everybody else was texting Radio Leeds, and I thought, | 0:52:57 | 0:52:59 | |
"Well, I actually met him, I did test his eyes," | 0:52:59 | 0:53:02 | |
so that's all I was saying. | 0:53:02 | 0:53:04 | |
I missed the second half of the sentence out. | 0:53:04 | 0:53:06 | |
-NEWS REPORTER: -13 different police forces | 0:53:09 | 0:53:11 | |
are now dealing with a catalogue of complaints | 0:53:11 | 0:53:13 | |
against the late Sir Jimmy Savile, | 0:53:13 | 0:53:15 | |
including the shocking allegation | 0:53:15 | 0:53:17 | |
that the TV star molested a brain-damaged girl | 0:53:17 | 0:53:20 | |
at the Leeds General Infirmary... | 0:53:20 | 0:53:22 | |
When everything was revealed, | 0:53:22 | 0:53:24 | |
I realised that I'd had a lucky escape. | 0:53:24 | 0:53:27 | |
And then, of course, I sent yet another message to Radio Leeds | 0:53:30 | 0:53:33 | |
to say, "Well, actually, I sent a message to say | 0:53:33 | 0:53:35 | |
"that he tested my eyes, but here's the full story," | 0:53:35 | 0:53:38 | |
and within half an hour, | 0:53:38 | 0:53:40 | |
they'd sent a reporter up to my work. | 0:53:40 | 0:53:42 | |
It's made me feel worse now than it did 40-odd years ago. | 0:53:47 | 0:53:50 | |
-Oh, I'm sorry. -No, no, I can live with it. | 0:53:50 | 0:53:53 | |
It just makes you think. | 0:53:53 | 0:53:56 | |
It had taken Susan nearly 40 years to acknowledge to herself | 0:53:58 | 0:54:02 | |
that what had taken place was an assault. | 0:54:02 | 0:54:04 | |
It was as though Jimmy Savile's sense of personality and entitlement | 0:54:07 | 0:54:11 | |
had been so strong in life | 0:54:11 | 0:54:12 | |
that she hadn't felt permitted to see her experience | 0:54:12 | 0:54:15 | |
for what it was. | 0:54:15 | 0:54:17 | |
-TV: -This has been one of the most important inquiries | 0:54:26 | 0:54:29 | |
in the history of this organisation. | 0:54:29 | 0:54:31 | |
What happened was profoundly wrong. | 0:54:33 | 0:54:38 | |
It should never have started, | 0:54:38 | 0:54:40 | |
it should certainly have been stopped. | 0:54:40 | 0:54:43 | |
Sexual abuse is sexual abuse. | 0:54:43 | 0:54:47 | |
It can never be excused. | 0:54:47 | 0:54:49 | |
When Dame Janet Smith published her report | 0:54:50 | 0:54:53 | |
into the BBC's role in the Savile affair, | 0:54:53 | 0:54:55 | |
among the many victims interviewed were the two women | 0:54:55 | 0:54:58 | |
who had written me a letter in 2000 and who I'd met for coffee. | 0:54:58 | 0:55:02 | |
'They'd come forward amid the tsunami of revelations | 0:55:03 | 0:55:06 | |
'to say that their relations with Jimmy Savile had been abusive.' | 0:55:06 | 0:55:11 | |
That was sort of the closest I got to getting the truth. | 0:55:11 | 0:55:15 | |
But at the time that I met them, | 0:55:15 | 0:55:17 | |
they were still describing themselves as his friends. | 0:55:17 | 0:55:20 | |
But I feel as though if they'd been more able to speak... | 0:55:20 | 0:55:25 | |
speak out that time, | 0:55:25 | 0:55:28 | |
I could have done more to bring out the truth while he was alive. | 0:55:28 | 0:55:32 | |
It was upsetting to realise that I'd actually met two victims | 0:55:35 | 0:55:38 | |
while Jimmy Savile was still alive. | 0:55:38 | 0:55:41 | |
I wondered whether if I'd handled the encounter in a different way, | 0:55:41 | 0:55:45 | |
they might have felt able to say more | 0:55:45 | 0:55:48 | |
or whether they simply hadn't been ready, | 0:55:48 | 0:55:51 | |
intimidated by the perception of his power. | 0:55:51 | 0:55:55 | |
Once he'd been unmasked, | 0:56:13 | 0:56:15 | |
the rumours that had circulated around Jimmy Savile in life | 0:56:15 | 0:56:19 | |
took on a whole new gravity. | 0:56:19 | 0:56:21 | |
I tried to think where I'd heard the rumours | 0:56:26 | 0:56:28 | |
and traced one back through my mum to my aunt, | 0:56:28 | 0:56:31 | |
who worked at the Mail On Sunday. | 0:56:31 | 0:56:33 | |
She told me she'd heard it from a co-worker called Angela Levin. | 0:56:38 | 0:56:43 | |
-Hi, Angela. Louis. -Hello. | 0:56:47 | 0:56:49 | |
How do you do? Nice to meet you. | 0:56:49 | 0:56:51 | |
-Mind if I join you? -Please. | 0:56:51 | 0:56:53 | |
So, you heard that there was an interest | 0:56:55 | 0:56:58 | |
in disabled youngsters when? | 0:56:58 | 0:57:03 | |
-What year was that? -In the mid-'80s. | 0:57:03 | 0:57:06 | |
When you did your first profile? | 0:57:06 | 0:57:09 | |
Well, I found him despicable and I found him a bully | 0:57:09 | 0:57:12 | |
and I found him a control freak. | 0:57:12 | 0:57:15 | |
He would, I was told anonymously by one nurse, | 0:57:16 | 0:57:21 | |
play with little girls who were paralysed from the waist down. | 0:57:21 | 0:57:26 | |
I mean, it seems odd that in a newspaper | 0:57:27 | 0:57:30 | |
where you have the resources to get that story out there | 0:57:30 | 0:57:35 | |
and do something about it, | 0:57:35 | 0:57:37 | |
that if you believed it, | 0:57:37 | 0:57:39 | |
that you couldn't have somehow done something? | 0:57:39 | 0:57:43 | |
Well, I think it wasn't the case that if you believed it, | 0:57:43 | 0:57:46 | |
you could do it, because the libel laws were very strong. | 0:57:46 | 0:57:49 | |
He was also extremely connected. | 0:57:49 | 0:57:51 | |
He raised £30 million, | 0:57:51 | 0:57:53 | |
he could threaten to not raise another penny. | 0:57:53 | 0:57:56 | |
You'd have to be a very brave paper to do that. | 0:57:56 | 0:58:00 | |
Let me present a kind of alternate reality scenario to you, | 0:58:02 | 0:58:07 | |
that a nurse tells you | 0:58:07 | 0:58:09 | |
that Jimmy Savile comes to visit her hospital, | 0:58:09 | 0:58:12 | |
and he molests disabled girls, right? | 0:58:12 | 0:58:15 | |
Which is sort of... That's what she told you, is that right? | 0:58:15 | 0:58:18 | |
And then you then feed that back to the investigations team, | 0:58:18 | 0:58:22 | |
or some senior people at the Mail, | 0:58:22 | 0:58:25 | |
and they go to work attempting to substantiate that, | 0:58:25 | 0:58:28 | |
and he's caught, | 0:58:28 | 0:58:30 | |
and then maybe even hundreds of victims | 0:58:30 | 0:58:33 | |
are prevented from ever being molested. | 0:58:33 | 0:58:36 | |
It's not a scenario that ever happened. | 0:58:36 | 0:58:40 | |
I don't think I went back and told the investigations team. | 0:58:40 | 0:58:43 | |
No, but I'm saying, if you had, if you'd blown the whistle... | 0:58:43 | 0:58:45 | |
Are you trying to blame this on me?! | 0:58:45 | 0:58:47 | |
No, no, I'm just trying to, in a sense... | 0:58:47 | 0:58:49 | |
I mean, there were lots of people... | 0:58:49 | 0:58:51 | |
..see if there was more we could have done. | 0:58:51 | 0:58:53 | |
We as a society are attempting to learn from what's happened. | 0:58:53 | 0:58:57 | |
Yes, I think you mustn't be overwhelmed by someone's fame, | 0:58:57 | 0:59:01 | |
but I think that nobody is, in the same way, you know. | 0:59:01 | 0:59:04 | |
He was very, very famous, he had very, very good connections, | 0:59:04 | 0:59:08 | |
he raised a load of money for charity. | 0:59:08 | 0:59:11 | |
And I think that's very intimidating. | 0:59:11 | 0:59:15 | |
He knew people in high places. | 0:59:15 | 0:59:18 | |
Jimmy Savile's power had created | 0:59:21 | 0:59:23 | |
an aura of invulnerability... | 0:59:23 | 0:59:26 | |
..so strong that, even now, after all the revelations, | 0:59:28 | 0:59:32 | |
there are still those under its influence... | 0:59:32 | 0:59:35 | |
..as I had discovered when I'd interviewed Janet Cope. | 0:59:36 | 0:59:40 | |
This is my wedding certificate, | 0:59:43 | 0:59:45 | |
and it's got Jimmy Savile on it, look. | 0:59:45 | 0:59:47 | |
-Oh, yeah. "In the presence of..." -And that's... | 0:59:47 | 0:59:51 | |
That's a good photo. | 0:59:51 | 0:59:53 | |
That's outside the registry office, | 0:59:53 | 0:59:55 | |
cos I had to start the ball rolling in the registry office. | 0:59:55 | 0:59:58 | |
And then we went to Stoke Mandeville church, at the hospital. | 0:59:58 | 1:00:01 | |
Basically, he gave you away, is that right? | 1:00:01 | 1:00:04 | |
-He did indeed. -As a father normally would? | 1:00:04 | 1:00:06 | |
Yeah, but I didn't have any relatives, | 1:00:06 | 1:00:09 | |
so Jim was my nearest and dearest, | 1:00:09 | 1:00:11 | |
so I asked him if he would give me away, and he said yes. Ready? | 1:00:11 | 1:00:15 | |
Ready. | 1:00:15 | 1:00:16 | |
TAPE RECORDER CLICKS | 1:00:16 | 1:00:17 | |
APPLAUSE | 1:00:17 | 1:00:20 | |
'Today and days like this | 1:00:20 | 1:00:23 | |
'I think enrich the lives of human beings. | 1:00:23 | 1:00:27 | |
'When we get together on a day like today, it lifts us all. | 1:00:27 | 1:00:32 | |
'Thank you for coming, and God bless the both of you.' | 1:00:32 | 1:00:35 | |
APPLAUSE | 1:00:35 | 1:00:37 | |
Jim is now lying in an unmarked grave | 1:00:43 | 1:00:46 | |
on a hill in Yorkshire, and he's... | 1:00:46 | 1:00:49 | |
He's not recognised any more | 1:00:49 | 1:00:51 | |
as being the good, good person that he was. | 1:00:51 | 1:00:55 | |
I don't know whether you've seen it all, but it's made my hair curl. | 1:00:55 | 1:00:59 | |
Do you mean things that came out after he died | 1:00:59 | 1:01:02 | |
-about his activities? -Yeah, that people made up. Yeah. | 1:01:02 | 1:01:05 | |
-Which he didn't do. -Which you don't believe? | 1:01:05 | 1:01:08 | |
No, I don't believe it. | 1:01:08 | 1:01:09 | |
It was impossible for him to do many of the things | 1:01:09 | 1:01:13 | |
that he was accused of. | 1:01:13 | 1:01:15 | |
You've read the Stoke Mandeville report. | 1:01:15 | 1:01:18 | |
-Yeah, this one, yeah. -And you didn't find them persuasive? | 1:01:18 | 1:01:21 | |
Many of these claims from Jim are going back to the '60s. | 1:01:21 | 1:01:26 | |
I mean, I was grateful if somebody gave me a pat on the bum, | 1:01:26 | 1:01:29 | |
but you can't apply the same rules, | 1:01:29 | 1:01:31 | |
because it was a different era, it was just different. | 1:01:31 | 1:01:35 | |
It's important to remember | 1:01:35 | 1:01:37 | |
that many of the allegations and the encounters | 1:01:37 | 1:01:40 | |
that are described are much more serious than a pat on the bum. | 1:01:40 | 1:01:45 | |
Go on, then, give me one. | 1:01:45 | 1:01:47 | |
Girls aged between 10 and 14 | 1:01:47 | 1:01:51 | |
in which he puts his hand down | 1:01:51 | 1:01:55 | |
and touches them intimately, you know, | 1:01:55 | 1:01:58 | |
-in a totally unwelcome... -I doubt it, I doubt it. | 1:01:58 | 1:02:01 | |
Do you think it's possible | 1:02:10 | 1:02:12 | |
that because of your close association with him | 1:02:12 | 1:02:14 | |
for so many years, that you've slightly lost your objectivity? | 1:02:14 | 1:02:21 | |
Do you think that's possible? | 1:02:23 | 1:02:25 | |
No. | 1:02:27 | 1:02:28 | |
No. Definitely not, I don't think so. | 1:02:28 | 1:02:31 | |
What makes you ask that? | 1:02:32 | 1:02:34 | |
The discovery of Jimmy Savile's offences has meant that | 1:02:38 | 1:02:42 | |
anyone who knew him has the task of reappraising | 1:02:42 | 1:02:45 | |
that part of their life. | 1:02:45 | 1:02:47 | |
Shall I put a finger on the knot? | 1:02:47 | 1:02:50 | |
INDISTINCT CONVERSATION | 1:02:50 | 1:02:53 | |
As I look back at rushes from my documentary, | 1:02:53 | 1:02:56 | |
I'm caught between a sense of missed clues | 1:02:56 | 1:02:59 | |
and an awareness of the distorting power of hindsight. | 1:02:59 | 1:03:03 | |
And I think how amazing it is | 1:03:05 | 1:03:08 | |
to realise he knows he's being recorded. | 1:03:08 | 1:03:11 | |
Now, then, hey! Hey, hey, hey, wonderful. Very good, very good. | 1:03:11 | 1:03:15 | |
Jimmy... | 1:03:15 | 1:03:17 | |
What was going on there? | 1:03:17 | 1:03:19 | |
Well, what was going on there is called opportunity. | 1:03:19 | 1:03:22 | |
And I'm a great opportunist. | 1:03:22 | 1:03:24 | |
And if I see a lady in distress, scantily clad, | 1:03:24 | 1:03:28 | |
I'm the first to offer my finger to put on the knot. | 1:03:28 | 1:03:32 | |
-See you in the morn. -OK. | 1:03:32 | 1:03:34 | |
-Goodnight. -Night. | 1:03:34 | 1:03:35 | |
In fact, in all the hours of footage I've seen of Jimmy Savile, | 1:03:35 | 1:03:39 | |
there is only one section I know of | 1:03:39 | 1:03:41 | |
in which he doesn't appear to realise he's on camera - | 1:03:41 | 1:03:45 | |
when the director of my original documentary taped him | 1:03:45 | 1:03:48 | |
after I'd gone to bed. | 1:03:48 | 1:03:50 | |
In the dance halls, I invented zero tolerance. | 1:03:50 | 1:03:52 | |
I wouldn't stand for any nonsense whatsoever, ever. | 1:03:52 | 1:03:55 | |
Ever, ever, ever. | 1:03:55 | 1:03:57 | |
I was always in trouble with the law for being heavy-handed, always, | 1:03:57 | 1:04:01 | |
but I couldn't care less about that. | 1:04:01 | 1:04:03 | |
Ejecting people who were mucking about? | 1:04:03 | 1:04:05 | |
No, I never threw anybody out. Tied 'em up and put 'em | 1:04:05 | 1:04:08 | |
down in the bloody boiler house | 1:04:08 | 1:04:09 | |
until I was ready for 'em - two o'clock in the fucking morning. | 1:04:09 | 1:04:13 | |
They'd plead to get out! | 1:04:13 | 1:04:14 | |
At the time, this material was shocking because it felt | 1:04:14 | 1:04:17 | |
so unlike the Jimmy Savile most of us knew. | 1:04:17 | 1:04:20 | |
You know, if a copper came and said, | 1:04:20 | 1:04:22 | |
"You was a bit heavy with that kid," or those two guys, whatever, | 1:04:22 | 1:04:26 | |
I'd say, "Your daughter comes in here. | 1:04:26 | 1:04:28 | |
"She's 16, she's not supposed to come into town, | 1:04:28 | 1:04:31 | |
"but she does and she comes here. | 1:04:31 | 1:04:33 | |
"I presume you'd like me to look after her. | 1:04:33 | 1:04:35 | |
"If you don't want me to look after her, tell me | 1:04:35 | 1:04:38 | |
"and I'll let them dirty slags do what they want to her." | 1:04:38 | 1:04:40 | |
"All right, Jim, all right." | 1:04:40 | 1:04:41 | |
"All right, then. Don't give me a fucking hard time, then." | 1:04:41 | 1:04:44 | |
"Yeah, you're right, | 1:04:44 | 1:04:46 | |
"you didn't give the bastard half enough, I'll tell you, Jim." | 1:04:46 | 1:04:48 | |
"Thank you, goodbye." I never got nicked. | 1:04:48 | 1:04:51 | |
HE CHUCKLES | 1:04:51 | 1:04:53 | |
-And I've never altered. -No. -I've got a zero tolerance, me. | 1:04:53 | 1:04:57 | |
Now it feels like one of the only examples we have on film | 1:05:01 | 1:05:05 | |
of Jimmy Savile behind the scenes. | 1:05:05 | 1:05:07 | |
The Jimmy Savile his victims knew. | 1:05:11 | 1:05:14 | |
-Hello. -Hello! -Are you Sam? -I am Sam. | 1:05:22 | 1:05:24 | |
-Louis. How are you doing? -I'm good, thank you. | 1:05:24 | 1:05:26 | |
-Nice to meet you. -And you. -Shall I take my shoes off? | 1:05:26 | 1:05:29 | |
Our paths crossed because we used to go to church | 1:05:29 | 1:05:33 | |
on a Saturday evening, which is where he used to go. | 1:05:33 | 1:05:38 | |
Because that was on the hospital premises. | 1:05:38 | 1:05:41 | |
It was the Stoke Mandeville chapel, | 1:05:41 | 1:05:43 | |
-in effect. -Yeah. | 1:05:43 | 1:05:45 | |
My job at church was to take the collection plate around. | 1:05:45 | 1:05:50 | |
There was a little presbytery room, and that's where I used to go | 1:05:50 | 1:05:55 | |
and get my collection plate. | 1:05:55 | 1:05:56 | |
And he used to go and stand in there. | 1:05:56 | 1:05:59 | |
So I'd go in, I'd get the plate, | 1:05:59 | 1:06:01 | |
which would always be behind Jimmy Savile. | 1:06:01 | 1:06:04 | |
So I always had to reach to get the plate. | 1:06:04 | 1:06:07 | |
And then... And then he would do whatever he wanted to do. | 1:06:08 | 1:06:12 | |
-While the service was going on... -Mm. -..he'd be back there... | 1:06:12 | 1:06:16 | |
The whole time. He would never sit with the congregation, | 1:06:16 | 1:06:19 | |
he would always be in the back room. | 1:06:19 | 1:06:22 | |
-Now, how old were you? -That was about 11. | 1:06:22 | 1:06:27 | |
Because my grandad had stopped, um... | 1:06:27 | 1:06:31 | |
had had to stop abusing me about that time, | 1:06:31 | 1:06:34 | |
because we moved to a different house. | 1:06:34 | 1:06:37 | |
How old had you been when your grandfather began molesting you? | 1:06:37 | 1:06:41 | |
From about two. | 1:06:41 | 1:06:43 | |
I was in hospital a lot. | 1:06:44 | 1:06:46 | |
-For as long as you can remember, in other words. -Always, yeah. | 1:06:46 | 1:06:49 | |
Always. | 1:06:49 | 1:06:50 | |
It was easy for Jimmy Savile. | 1:06:50 | 1:06:52 | |
What he was doing was no different from what, you know, | 1:06:52 | 1:06:56 | |
had happened all my life, so... | 1:06:56 | 1:06:59 | |
He picked really easily and well. | 1:07:01 | 1:07:04 | |
Are you OK? I'm just aware that it's quite distressing to... | 1:07:04 | 1:07:07 | |
It's quite... I mean, it's a horrible thing to... | 1:07:07 | 1:07:11 | |
-We've heard... -..hear about. -We've... | 1:07:11 | 1:07:14 | |
It's quite nice, actually, | 1:07:14 | 1:07:15 | |
that Mum has got brave enough recently | 1:07:15 | 1:07:18 | |
to be able to do this, because then we're grown-ups, too. | 1:07:18 | 1:07:22 | |
So... | 1:07:22 | 1:07:23 | |
And Mum's our responsibility as much as we are hers, so... | 1:07:23 | 1:07:27 | |
Are you OK to go into a little more detail? | 1:07:27 | 1:07:30 | |
Yeah, as long as you're OK, because I'm going to say it as it is. | 1:07:30 | 1:07:34 | |
-Yes, please. -I'm not going to make anything sound nice, | 1:07:34 | 1:07:37 | |
or...or I'm not going to soften anything. | 1:07:37 | 1:07:40 | |
I'm going to say the acts. | 1:07:40 | 1:07:42 | |
-Nobody really wants to hear them facts... -No. -Hmm. | 1:07:42 | 1:07:45 | |
And they're real facts. | 1:07:45 | 1:07:47 | |
I used to go in there, there were times when... | 1:07:47 | 1:07:50 | |
Because I didn't have my period for a long... | 1:07:50 | 1:07:53 | |
You know, I was quite late. So what I used to try and do | 1:07:53 | 1:07:56 | |
to keep myself safe to go to church | 1:07:56 | 1:07:58 | |
was, my oldest sister had Tampaxes, | 1:07:58 | 1:08:01 | |
so I used to force the Tampaxes into myself to try and... | 1:08:01 | 1:08:06 | |
..stop... | 1:08:08 | 1:08:10 | |
try and protect myself. | 1:08:10 | 1:08:13 | |
And I used to wear lots of pairs of knickers, | 1:08:13 | 1:08:17 | |
just to make it harder. | 1:08:17 | 1:08:19 | |
Sometimes he used to put his hands into my mouth, erm... | 1:08:21 | 1:08:26 | |
..while he was doing everything else, | 1:08:27 | 1:08:30 | |
touching wherever he wanted to touch. | 1:08:30 | 1:08:33 | |
I just used to think, "Just hurry up that bit of the service," | 1:08:33 | 1:08:37 | |
so I could come out of the room. | 1:08:37 | 1:08:39 | |
But then I knew I had to go back in the room. | 1:08:39 | 1:08:42 | |
You know, I never looked up, | 1:08:43 | 1:08:45 | |
I never said to him, "Don't," because I knew he could. | 1:08:45 | 1:08:50 | |
I think paedophiles in general, | 1:08:52 | 1:08:54 | |
but especially Jimmy Savile, | 1:08:54 | 1:08:56 | |
he had a sort of instinct for vulnerability. | 1:08:56 | 1:08:59 | |
I think all paedophiles know. | 1:08:59 | 1:09:02 | |
I think they all know, they're so clever. | 1:09:03 | 1:09:06 | |
I was really backward as a child. | 1:09:06 | 1:09:09 | |
My grandad was the one who'd come and fight for me in school. | 1:09:09 | 1:09:14 | |
Fight for me when teachers would hit my head off a wall and things, | 1:09:14 | 1:09:18 | |
he would be the one to come and fight for me. | 1:09:18 | 1:09:21 | |
So it was so confusing, because that person | 1:09:21 | 1:09:24 | |
who set me up for everything was also my saviour. | 1:09:24 | 1:09:29 | |
All wrapped into one person. | 1:09:29 | 1:09:31 | |
I have lovely memories of my grandad, | 1:09:35 | 1:09:39 | |
which everybody else really struggles with, | 1:09:39 | 1:09:42 | |
because he took time out with me... a lot. | 1:09:42 | 1:09:44 | |
Now, I know now why he took his time out, | 1:09:44 | 1:09:49 | |
but if I'm to make that person a whole one person, | 1:09:49 | 1:09:53 | |
then I'm really in the trouble, because I've got no... | 1:09:53 | 1:09:57 | |
Where does your nice bit ever be? | 1:10:01 | 1:10:04 | |
And you can't do that, | 1:10:06 | 1:10:08 | |
you can't have a whole childhood of horrible stuff. | 1:10:08 | 1:10:13 | |
So I take the good bits out because it's easier to do that. | 1:10:16 | 1:10:20 | |
I think... I understand perfectly what you mean, | 1:10:20 | 1:10:23 | |
-and I feel as though it's OK to have the nice bits. -Yeah. | 1:10:23 | 1:10:27 | |
You've got to take something somewhere. | 1:10:27 | 1:10:30 | |
Even people who do evil things do good things from time to time. | 1:10:30 | 1:10:35 | |
-Yeah. -It doesn't make them good people. -Yeah. | 1:10:35 | 1:10:38 | |
I grapple with what Jimmy Savile did - | 1:10:38 | 1:10:42 | |
he molested, raped, abused hundreds of people - | 1:10:42 | 1:10:46 | |
and at the same time, he was someone who, when he was alive, | 1:10:46 | 1:10:50 | |
I called a friend, which I still struggle with. | 1:10:50 | 1:10:54 | |
Do you feel like you were groomed? | 1:10:54 | 1:10:57 | |
I think "groomed" is maybe too big a word | 1:11:00 | 1:11:03 | |
for what he did to me, because, um... | 1:11:03 | 1:11:06 | |
..he didn't abuse me, he didn't abuse... | 1:11:08 | 1:11:11 | |
But mentally groomed, mentally given... | 1:11:11 | 1:11:14 | |
He mugged you off by giving you what he wanted to give you, | 1:11:14 | 1:11:18 | |
and did you believe what he gave you? | 1:11:18 | 1:11:21 | |
I believed parts of it. I thought he was a... | 1:11:21 | 1:11:25 | |
I thought he was an enigmatic person, | 1:11:25 | 1:11:28 | |
that he had a secretive... I knew there was a secret there, | 1:11:28 | 1:11:31 | |
I just didn't know exactly what the secret was. | 1:11:31 | 1:11:33 | |
And then I feel a bit ashamed, now knowing what we know. | 1:11:33 | 1:11:37 | |
I feel as though, um... | 1:11:37 | 1:11:39 | |
-You didn't do the right thing. -Well, I don't... | 1:11:41 | 1:11:44 | |
I want to stand up and say that I don't really regret that, | 1:11:44 | 1:11:47 | |
in the sense that I don't want | 1:11:47 | 1:11:49 | |
to say that I've anything to feel ashamed of, | 1:11:49 | 1:11:52 | |
-in a sense, because... -But you haven't, have you? | 1:11:52 | 1:11:55 | |
..I didn't see anything. | 1:11:55 | 1:11:56 | |
I accept that I was one of many people who failed | 1:11:56 | 1:11:59 | |
-to see what he was about. -How did you fail to see that? | 1:11:59 | 1:12:03 | |
Because even then, you looked at him, you smelt him. | 1:12:03 | 1:12:08 | |
His mannerisms, to me, were all really obvious. | 1:12:08 | 1:12:13 | |
-Perhaps that's just because you know. -Yeah. | 1:12:15 | 1:12:17 | |
It's like they say about quizzes - | 1:12:17 | 1:12:19 | |
-it's only obvious if you know the answer. -Yeah. | 1:12:19 | 1:12:22 | |
What are you doing here? | 1:12:34 | 1:12:36 | |
Straight punter! | 1:12:36 | 1:12:37 | |
Boring. | 1:12:37 | 1:12:39 | |
Don't do booze, don't do drugs, | 1:12:39 | 1:12:41 | |
don't do none of them foolish things that I see on your programmes. | 1:12:41 | 1:12:46 | |
However, I suppose it's nice to do | 1:12:46 | 1:12:49 | |
somebody that's a bit straight for a change. | 1:12:49 | 1:12:51 | |
-Yeah. -You'll have your work cut out being interesting. | 1:12:51 | 1:12:54 | |
Yeah. No, I know... Do you really regard yourself as normal? | 1:12:54 | 1:12:59 | |
-No. I regard myself as odd. -Yeah. -I think I'm odd. | 1:12:59 | 1:13:03 | |
It's sometimes said that monsters don't get close to children - | 1:13:06 | 1:13:09 | |
nice men do. | 1:13:09 | 1:13:11 | |
-The altar. That's the alter there. -Why do you call it the altar? | 1:13:15 | 1:13:18 | |
Because I go to sleep in it and I smile | 1:13:18 | 1:13:20 | |
-and it's nice to be there. -Yeah. | 1:13:20 | 1:13:23 | |
That doesn't sound like an altar to me. | 1:13:23 | 1:13:25 | |
-It just sounds like one to me. -Really? -Yes. | 1:13:25 | 1:13:27 | |
Now we know the truth about Jimmy Savile, it all seems so clear. | 1:13:29 | 1:13:33 | |
-Give 'em a wave, I want to see... -No, no, in a minute. -Why? | 1:13:35 | 1:13:37 | |
I'll tell you when to give them a wave. | 1:13:37 | 1:13:39 | |
Why can't we give them a wave now? | 1:13:39 | 1:13:41 | |
Leave it to me. Instinct tells me when to carry on. | 1:13:41 | 1:13:44 | |
I am the archetypal carry-er on-er. | 1:13:44 | 1:13:46 | |
We know how we're doing. | 1:13:46 | 1:13:49 | |
But in his time, he charmed royalty and prime ministers, | 1:13:50 | 1:13:55 | |
and millions of us who listened to him on the radio | 1:13:55 | 1:13:59 | |
and watched him on TV. | 1:13:59 | 1:14:01 | |
Cheers. That's really it. Have we forgotten anything? | 1:14:03 | 1:14:06 | |
Jangle, jangle, jewellery, jewellery. | 1:14:06 | 1:14:09 | |
JIMMY CHUCKLES | 1:14:09 | 1:14:11 | |
Excellent. | 1:14:11 | 1:14:13 | |
And so, to understand his crimes, | 1:14:14 | 1:14:16 | |
we should also remember how we were beguiled. | 1:14:16 | 1:14:20 |