Savile Louis Theroux


Savile

Louis Theroux sets out to understand how a man at the centre of British entertainment and charitable fundraising for decades was able to get away with a long litany of crimes.


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Transcript


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This programme contains some strong language

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and scenes which some viewers may find upsetting

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Jimmy, what are you up to?

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'This footage is of a visit Jimmy Savile made

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'to my house in 2001.'

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Come and look at my exercise bike.

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We'd had a friendly relationship

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since making a documentary together the previous year.

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# Ho ho ho

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-# Ho ho ho

-Ho ho ho

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# Ho ho ho... #

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One of my reasons for keeping in touch

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was that I thought there was a side to him I hadn't seen.

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All right, then.

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-Thanks for coming by.

-OK. Good morning.

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And if you ever do need a place to crash in London,

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you've seen you've got a room upstairs.

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-I'm serious.

-Thank you very much. I appreciated that.

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I'm just going to check out that it's safe out here.

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If I go out backwards, people will think I'm coming in.

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There.

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But I never found out the truth while he was alive.

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-Good to see you.

-Good.

-All right.

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Jimmy! Jimmy! Jimmy!

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A report into how Jimmy Savile was able to abuse children

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while working for the BBC is due to be published.

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A leaked draft of Dame Janet Smith's report

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criticised a culture of untouchable stars at the corporation.

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Our media correspondent David Sillitoe can give us the latest.

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David, what do we know so far?

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Well, this is the box in which I keep my Jimmy Savile material.

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So the background is I made this film... It's quite heavy.

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..in 2000. When Louis Met Jimmy, and spent several weeks

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over the course of a few months trying to get to know him.

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-How's it going? Nice to meet you.

-How are you?

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Yeah, not too bad. How are you doing?

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You're better looking than me, you'll have to go.

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Anybody better looking than me, that's it.

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Step this way.

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-How are you feeling?

-Regularly. How are you?

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Not too bad.

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Marvellous, I'm like a butcher's dog, as it happens,

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and there's nothing more fitter and stronger than a butcher's dog.

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-All the scraps, all the bones, all the hair. That's it.

-Yeah.

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15 years after I first met him,

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and three years after the revelation of his vast offence history,

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I decided to speak to some of the people who'd known Jimmy Savile.

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His friends and his victims.

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I wanted to try to understand

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how he'd got away with his crimes for so long,

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to see what clues there were in hindsight

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'and make sense of my own failure to recognise him for what he was.'

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I've come to wake you up.

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That makes the searching documentaries of the world here...

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-Hello.

-Get back. Don't mind him.

-Is Kat available?

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-She is.

-Shall we come in?

-Yes.

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How are you doing? Nice to meet you.

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The first to speak out after he died had been an ex-pupil at Duncroft,

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a boarding school for troubled teenage girls.

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Her name was Kat Ward.

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This is Duncroft, that was how Duncroft was.

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I was sent there because I was in care in Norfolk.

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And I kept running away.

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So can you remember the first time

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Jimmy Savile came to the school?

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There was a level of excitement, I suppose.

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-He was someone off the telly.

-Oh, God, yes.

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We'd all get excited about it.

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Well, we'd wonder what he's going to bring this time.

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Sometimes he brought records. I mean, he was a disc jockey

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and he always came loaded with cigarettes.

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Because, of course, back then all the girls smoked.

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And some of the girls would get chosen to take a ride

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in the Rolls with Jimmy. Is that right?

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Yes.

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BLEEPING

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Did you have any inkling of what might be in store?

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Had there been whispers?

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There weren't whispers. We talked about it openly.

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-About what he was after?

-Yeah, yeah.

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He had mainly been doing a bit of snogging,

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sticking his tongue down your throat,

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which was horrible because he tasted of those fat, smelly cigars,

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and he liked to have a grope, if he could.

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There was nothing to grope on my chest, but he did like to grope.

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I think he preferred smaller breasts, actually.

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What makes you say that?

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Because the girls that he tended to select

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tended to be on the slender and less developed side.

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If I'm absolutely honest with you,

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the abuse that I suffered at the hands of Jimmy Savile

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was nothing compared to what had gone before.

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-So...

-From your stepfather?

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Yeah, and my stepfather's friends.

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By the time I was about ten,

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I had decided that men were predators.

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Men were bullies.

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Men only wanted women for sexual favours.

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So, because I was used to abuse...

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This must sound awful.

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Because I was more used to it,

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I didn't find the sort of things that he asked for

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to be peculiar, because by that time I had decided that,

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well, that's what men do, all men.

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You know, I can remember the first time that he wanted me

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to fellate him and I was like,

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"No, I don't want to, I don't want to."

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So I gave him hand relief instead.

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But then the next time he took me out and asked me to fellate him,

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and I said, "I don't want to. I don't want to."

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He said, "Look if you do, you can come to London

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"and be on my television programme."

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Morning all. Morning all.

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Welcome to Clunk Clink.

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How are we today?

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Obviously if you, as a child,

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have to fellate an adult,

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there's a lot of gagging and retching

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and quite often vomiting involved.

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He flung the car door open and said, "Not in the car, not in the car."

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Did you watch my documentary at the time?

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-Yeah.

-What did you make of it?

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Um...

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What were you expecting and what did you see?

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My actual reaction was along the lines of,

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"Poor Louis.

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"He's really, really been hoodwinked here."

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Sorry.

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Sorry.

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-It's an awful thing to say.

-No, no, it's good to hear that.

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After he died, I really had to take a step back

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and examine my own conscience a little bit to think about,

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"Well, what did I miss and what more could I have done?"

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We can all look back now and say, "Why didn't we see that?

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"Yeah, he told us what he was.

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"And we didn't see it. Why didn't we see it?"

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He was very clever.

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The idea that he might have a secret

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was one of the motivations behind my original documentary.

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Like many, from my teenage years, I had heard unsavoury rumours

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about Jimmy Savile.

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From our first day together,

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it was clear he enjoyed the perception

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that no-one knew his private affairs.

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-Do we not talk about that?

-We can talk about anything.

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-Prince Charles and Princess Diana.

-That's right. Talk about anything.

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You'll find out how tricky I am. Next.

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Got him on the ropes.

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I've got him on the ropes. He's on the ropes.

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But as filming progressed, I saw that he was committing himself

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to the documentary in ways I hadn't expected

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from someone of his celebrity.

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Whoa!

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'Working long hours.'

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Give me the bag, Jimmy.

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'Staying overnight in a caravan in Scotland.

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'Letting me sleep in his dead mother's bedroom.

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'On one of our last days of filming,

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'I'd asked about the rumours that swirled around him.'

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It's easy for me, as a single man, to say,

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"I don't like children."

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Because that puts a lot of salacious tabloid people

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off the hunt.

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Are you basically saying that so tabloids don't pursue

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this whole is he, isn't he a paedophile line, basically?

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Yes. Yes. Yes.

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Oh, aye.

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How do they know whether I am or not?

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How does anybody know whether I am?

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Nobody knows whether I am or not. I know I'm not.

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I can tell you from experience the easy way of doing it

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when they say "All them children on Jim'll Fix It."

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-"Yeah, hate them."

-Yeah,

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-To me, that sounds more sort of suspicious in a way...

-Hard luck.

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..because it seems so implausible.

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-That's my policy. That's the way it goes.

-Really?

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'At the time it hadn't felt

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'like a particularly revealing exchange.'

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Ho, ho, ho.

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And it's on until 10pm.

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After the documentary went out,

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I felt a degree of gratitude for the effort he'd put into it

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and we kept in touch.

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Here we go. What Jimmy and Louis did next.

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"Welcome to the 21st century's strangest friendship."

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"I found Jimmy rather defensive", says Louis.

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"If someone came into your house and went through your stuff,

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"what would you be?" rails Jimmy.

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"But I tell you something - he found zilch.

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"I'm not into white powder, I'm not into that underage shit.

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"I'm a marathon runner and we're very boring people."

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-JONATHAN ROSS:

-Louis Theroux with us in the studio.

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-Thank you for coming in.

-Thanks for having me.

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Like most of the country, I think, I'm intrigued

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by what actually goes on in Jimmy's head,

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in Jimmy's life, in Jimmy's house.

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Was there any one thing you wanted to ask Jimmy when you were there

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and you lost your nerve?

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Well, it's hard to say. No, he's pretty much...

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You can ask him almost anything.

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He is a sexual enigma.

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I still haven't really sorted out what's goes on there exactly.

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Our association had lasted a number of years.

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Jimmy Savile used to boast that he didn't have emotions.

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But there are many people who knew him in a friendly way for decades.

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I wondered if they might shed light on who he really was.

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DOORBELL PLAYS JAUNTY TUNE

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-Hi, Janet.

-Good morning.

-Louis.

-Hello.

-How do you do?

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I'm better now I've seen you. Come in.

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Shall I take these off?

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Only if you're staying in.

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What do you think?

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Should we go into the garage and look at some of the stuff?

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Yes. Right, I'll just get my coat.

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-Yes.

-Can I shut the door now?

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-Course you can. You do what you want, Janet?

-Cut.

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Janet Cope was Jimmy Savile's PA.

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Besides his mother, she probably spent more time with him

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than any other woman.

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This is your stuff that remains from when you were working with him

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and you worked with him for about 28 years, didn't you?

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Yeah, nearly 30.

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"Dear Jimmy. I was enormously touched by your very kind letter.

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"Yours sincerely, Prince Charles."

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-There's one like that from Mrs Thatcher somewhere.

-Is there?

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Yeah.

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-But he always remembered his team.

-Yeah.

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There wasn't anywhere I couldn't ring.

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To get hold of Downing Street,

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I had a direct line to Downing Street.

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It's been quite hard finding close friends of his to speak now.

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Yeah. He didn't have many close friends.

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He found friends an incumbence.

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He liked his freedom. He didn't want anything that weighed him down.

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In a way a friendship is a two-way relationship.

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-Yes.

-And really, he wanted one-way relationships.

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Yes. Which is why, I think, Jim and I got on so well.

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He controlled things.

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Not in a nasty way, but in a positive way.

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He'd come over here for his dinner.

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But he still had control over me, like what we ate,

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the time he would arrive, the smoking indoors.

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Oh, look! "After all this, it's got to be that."

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What do you think about that?

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Didn't worry me. Didn't think twice about it.

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Well, for someone who advertised the fact

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that he didn't have any emotions...

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No, no, course he...

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He loves me cos I'm convenient.

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I think I know the answer to this. Did...?

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No, I didn't love him.

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Did you see the documentary I made with him?

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Yeah. Yeah. I did.

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Did you have any thoughts on it?

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I laughed because I thought,

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especially when you were in the back of that camper van

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and he said he slept in it all night.

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I thought, "Good old Louis, he's believed him."

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-You think he didn't?

-No, of course he didn't.

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What makes you think he didn't?

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Because he's a good liar.

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He used to tell people how many marathons he'd done.

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Every time he'd tell journalists the number of marathons he'd done,

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the number was different.

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But I had no proof and neither did anybody else,

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because nobody checked up on it.

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Did you feel that he had any sexual interests?

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I used to tell people that he was asexual

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because people always accused him of being gay and he wasn't gay.

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But then he wasn't craving what I call female...closeness.

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In my... Not that I ever saw or witnessed. Ever.

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Jim fixed me. I remember that.

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I read it at the time.

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"For 28 years she was PA to the eccentric Savile.

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"Even cooking and cleaning for him.

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" 'Then one day', says Janet Cope, 'she was out, not with a warning

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" 'and not even a thank you.' "

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I was sick to death of hearing him say, "Put the kettle on."

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Made the tea, took it in. Just put it all around the table.

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And then he said... One thing led to another. I can't remember.

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-He said, "She's going."

-She's out.

-She's out.

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Pointing at you?

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Yeah, well, I was...

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I don't know how I felt, I was gobsmacked.

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I went up to him and I just said,

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"Jim, why have you done this to me? Why have you done this?

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"I've lied for you. I've looked after you all this time. Why have you done this to me?"

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He had a pile of papers in his hand.

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He said, "Today's today, tomorrow's tomorrow.

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"I've got a train to catch. End of."

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He didn't understand other people's feelings.

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He didn't.

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He just didn't.

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But then they weren't important to him,

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so why should he understand them?

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-Janet, you have been Jimmy's assistant for 20 years...?

-Was. Was.

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LAUGHTER

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Before you leave his employ, can you tell us about it?

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Yes, Jimmy has a dream and he usually makes dreams come true.

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I couldn't help feeling that Janet too had been used by Jimmy Savile.

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A provider of food and shelter and showing total loyalty

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and yet without ever really getting close.

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It was striking that someone could know him so well

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while also knowing him barely at all.

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In our time together,

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Jimmy Savile had only entertained serious questions

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about his private life on one occasion.

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-Do they ever ask you to host it?

-Not just now.

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'During a visit to the flat in Scarborough he'd once shared

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'with the only woman he'd ever said he loved.'

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You said you have the Duchess's clothes?

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-Yeah, artefacts.

-Artefacts.

-Artefacts.

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'His mother, who he called the Duchess.'

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My cleaner takes them out

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and gets them cleaned and freshened up once...

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about once a year. Now all this gear was gear she wore,

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so instead of slinging it away, I thought I would hang on to it,

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cos these make better souvenirs than photographs.

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Look, it's all knitting, stuff like that.

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Knitting.

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Knitting.

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-We both lived here.

-Together?

-Of course.

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Did that not cramp your style a little bit?

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No, not at all.

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If you see over there on the horizon a caravan camp.

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-Yeah.

-I had a caravan there.

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So that was the love nest.

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It was my big chance to address the central question

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of what his sexual interests were.

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Do you mean to say that you've never, ever, ever had a girlfriend?

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Friends that are girls, eight million.

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Friends that are girls. Yeah.

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But girlfriend in the sense of today,

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ie, you are together, you don't bother with anyone else, et cetera -

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no, never.

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Never.

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-Not even for like a week?

-No. Not even for a week. No.

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What strikes me looking back is that in describing large numbers

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of fleeting encounters,

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he was telling part of the truth,

0:20:500:20:52

leaving out that they involved child molestation,

0:20:520:20:55

rape and sexual assault.

0:20:550:20:57

A few weeks after the documentary aired in 2000, I received a letter.

0:21:120:21:18

It came from two women who described themselves

0:21:180:21:20

as girlfriends of Jimmy Savile.

0:21:200:21:22

"We watched your TV programme with great interest.

0:21:240:21:27

"It's a shame in your research you didn't find us

0:21:270:21:29

"and ask us some questions about Jim.

0:21:290:21:31

"We could have directed you as to how to tackle him

0:21:310:21:34

"and what to ask.

0:21:340:21:36

"Contrary to what Jim would like you to believe,

0:21:360:21:38

"Jim did have a lot of girlfriends, not girls that were just friends.

0:21:380:21:41

"We were two of them. All Jim's girlfriends knew each other.

0:21:410:21:46

"There was never jealousies.

0:21:460:21:48

"We're all enormous friends to this day."

0:21:480:21:50

I went along to meet them for tea in London.

0:21:560:21:59

They were in their mid-40s.

0:22:020:22:04

They described a long friendly relationship

0:22:040:22:07

that had start decades earlier at the BBC.

0:22:070:22:09

But knowing everything I know now about Jimmy Savile,

0:22:140:22:18

some details of what they told me are troubling.

0:22:180:22:20

I said to one of them, "How old were you?"

0:22:230:22:26

"You sound like Jimmy", she said,

0:22:260:22:27

"That's the first question he would always ask. How old are you?"

0:22:270:22:31

"Why?" I said, "Why do you think?"

0:22:310:22:33

If you extract the details,

0:22:350:22:39

it is predatory and...

0:22:390:22:43

inappropriate and unhealthy.

0:22:430:22:45

In fact, one of them had been 15 when she started the relationship,

0:22:450:22:49

so it is criminal.

0:22:490:22:51

But you've got the friendship and also their tone,

0:22:520:22:55

which was to do with affection.

0:22:550:22:57

At the time, I took the relationships to be symptomatic

0:23:030:23:06

of a different era, the show business world of the '60s and '70s.

0:23:060:23:11

In fact, in those early days at the BBC,

0:23:210:23:24

Jimmy Savile was involved in multiple sexual assaults.

0:23:240:23:27

Some involving children.

0:23:270:23:29

The shows he made gave him access to vulnerable youngsters...

0:23:320:23:36

and also the celebrity and the cache to win their trust.

0:23:360:23:39

Oh, don't go in the water.

0:23:390:23:41

-Hi, Gill.

-Hi, Louis.

0:23:410:23:42

-Louis, how do you do?

-How do you do?

-Nice to meet you.

0:23:420:23:45

You too.

0:23:450:23:46

Do you come out here quite a bit.

0:23:460:23:48

'Gill Stribling-Wright, an ex-BBC producer,

0:23:480:23:51

'worked with him on and off for 30 years.'

0:23:510:23:55

What was your professional association with Jimmy Savile?

0:23:550:23:59

Well, I was a researcher on Jim'll Fix It

0:23:590:24:03

right from the beginning,

0:24:030:24:04

and before that, two series of a not very successful show

0:24:040:24:09

-called Clunk Click.

-Did you also work on Top Of The Pops?

0:24:090:24:13

I worked on Top Of The Pops, yes.

0:24:130:24:15

Have you familiarised yourself with the various accounts

0:24:150:24:21

by victims of what happened in the reports that have come out?

0:24:210:24:25

No. I haven't read in detail the reports

0:24:250:24:31

-because I don't quite know what I'd do with it.

-Hmm.

0:24:310:24:35

I didn't see anything.

0:24:370:24:38

I've done various interviews about it

0:24:380:24:40

and I really didn't see anything

0:24:400:24:42

that would give me cause for concern.

0:24:420:24:44

The music industry was like that,

0:24:460:24:50

sex and drugs and rock and roll.

0:24:500:24:52

People could get away with stuff, as much as they probably still do.

0:24:520:24:56

The small difference of this being a BBC studio,

0:24:560:25:01

-a BBC dressing room, basically a kids' show...

-Right.

0:25:010:25:04

A kids' show that you were working on.

0:25:040:25:06

It always sounds shocking when people say they're not shocked

0:25:090:25:12

and horrified and dramatically overwhelmed by everything,

0:25:120:25:15

but, um...I wasn't.

0:25:150:25:18

I wonder if you would react slightly differently if you read the reports.

0:25:190:25:23

There's an accumulation of account which is...

0:25:230:25:27

There were words that you mentioned,

0:25:270:25:29

"horrifying", but which are actually justified.

0:25:290:25:34

And which you can only really appreciate

0:25:340:25:37

if you see the scale, if you try to comprehend the scale

0:25:370:25:40

of what went on.

0:25:400:25:42

It sounds when we talk about it like you're trying to...

0:25:460:25:50

I feel like I'm trying to justify why this thing happened

0:25:500:25:54

and why nobody did anything about it.

0:25:540:25:56

I mean, my relationship with Savile was very much in the workplace.

0:26:020:26:05

I didn't see him on any social occasions,

0:26:050:26:08

but then, as he once said to me,

0:26:080:26:11

I was a bit walnut-ish. I was in my mid-20s.

0:26:110:26:15

What did you take walnut-ish to mean?

0:26:150:26:17

A bit too old.

0:26:170:26:19

Because walnuts are sort of wrinkly?

0:26:190:26:21

-Wrinkly, exactly.

-Brown and wrinkly.

-Exactly.

0:26:210:26:23

Part of his persona was the fact

0:26:260:26:28

that he would tread very close to the line,

0:26:280:26:31

in hindsight, you realise now.

0:26:310:26:32

I once had a conversation with him about the perfect crime.

0:26:370:26:40

And he said, "The problem is it's not a perfect crime

0:26:400:26:46

"unless you can get the kudos for having committed the perfect crime,

0:26:460:26:49

"but the second you get the kudos for having committed

0:26:490:26:51

"the perfect crime, ie by telling somebody,

0:26:510:26:54

"it is then no longer the perfect crime."

0:26:540:26:58

I sometimes wonder if he was kind of teasing the world

0:26:580:27:01

in an effort to be discovered.

0:27:010:27:03

Here's another one. Louis's tip.

0:27:230:27:26

I think that's when he came into the office on one occasion.

0:27:260:27:29

In 2001, Jimmy Savile paid a visit to my BBC offices

0:27:390:27:43

for a short follow-up documentary.

0:27:430:27:46

-Good morning.

-Hello.

-How are you?

0:27:500:27:52

What a dreadful tip this is.

0:27:520:27:54

Dreadful tip.

0:27:540:27:56

He was dressed inappropriately, his behaviour was borderline creepy,

0:27:560:28:01

but at the time, like others,

0:28:010:28:03

I felt this was part of his comic persona.

0:28:030:28:06

Louis's tip.

0:28:060:28:09

Right.

0:28:130:28:14

Oh, my goodness!

0:28:140:28:15

Oh, yes! Yes!

0:28:150:28:17

Here. I hope that Mr Louis Theroux never comes.

0:28:170:28:20

That will do for me.

0:28:200:28:22

I would like to strip these girls, baring their secrets.

0:28:220:28:24

Mr Jimmy Savile, how are you doing?

0:28:240:28:25

You didn't jog all the way down, did you?

0:28:250:28:27

Where've you been?

0:28:270:28:28

This beautiful girl has just come in bearing gifts.

0:28:280:28:31

Thank you. You are very, very kind.

0:28:310:28:33

Can you walk away slowly, please?

0:28:330:28:35

Thank you. Now what I'm going to do, because I'm in the BBC,

0:28:350:28:40

I must now change.

0:28:400:28:41

You don't mind if I change here, do you?

0:28:430:28:45

Looking back he almost seems to be showing

0:28:450:28:47

how much he can get away with.

0:28:470:28:50

And daring us to challenge him.

0:28:500:28:51

Later, his conversation returned to a favourite theme

0:28:540:28:58

of how to deal with unwelcome attention from the tabloids.

0:28:580:29:01

Does it perturb you at all that you are actually in that category

0:29:060:29:10

where somebody can have a go at you?

0:29:100:29:13

They don't care whether it's right, wrong, true, false,

0:29:130:29:15

so long as they've got names, baby, they'll have a feast.

0:29:150:29:19

Say, for instance, you were interviewing me

0:29:190:29:22

on an allegation of something that was not nice, right?

0:29:220:29:26

And you said to me, you're alleged to have...

0:29:260:29:30

de-dum-de-dum-de-dum.

0:29:300:29:31

My answer would be, "It would be a lot worse if it were true."

0:29:310:29:38

Well... LOUIS CLEARS HIS THROAT

0:29:390:29:42

They do say no smoke without a fire, don't they?

0:29:420:29:45

After he died, there were numerous reports

0:29:580:30:01

detailing the scale of Jimmy Savile's offending.

0:30:010:30:05

They identified 326 victims,

0:30:050:30:09

describing a range of incidents,

0:30:090:30:11

from the relatively less serious to rape and child abuse.

0:30:110:30:16

72 victims involved the BBC.

0:30:180:30:21

177 were at hospitals.

0:30:210:30:24

"We know that your client has agreed not to pursue a claim

0:30:240:30:27

-"against this newspaper."

-That's right.

0:30:270:30:29

They said that I was derogatory to patients.

0:30:290:30:33

Right. Which I wasn't. And so they agreed that I wasn't

0:30:330:30:37

and they said, "We have made a mistake,

0:30:370:30:39

"kindly take this nice few quid."

0:30:390:30:41

That seems a bit rich, given how much...

0:30:410:30:43

I mean for them to accuse you of being derogatory to patients

0:30:430:30:46

-given how much money you raise.

-That's why they all pay up.

0:30:460:30:48

-Do they?

-Oh, aye.

0:30:480:30:50

Cherie Wheatcroft was a patient at Stoke Mandeville in 1973.

0:31:010:31:06

DOORBELL BUZZES

0:31:060:31:08

Hello. Louis.

0:31:100:31:12

-How do you do?

-How do you do? Nice to meet you.

-Hello, hello.

0:31:120:31:15

-Come in.

-Thank you.

0:31:150:31:16

How do you like to say your name? Che-ree or Cher-ee?

0:31:160:31:19

-Are you Clive?

-Hi.

-Louis.

0:31:190:31:21

-Very pleased to meet you.

-Nice to meet you.

0:31:210:31:23

-Are these all your paintings?

-Yes.

0:31:230:31:24

That's what I spend most of my time doing.

0:31:240:31:27

Painting all day and actually all night, mostly.

0:31:270:31:31

-They're beautiful.

-Thank you.

-Very nice.

0:31:310:31:33

There's a lot of James Blunt pictures.

0:31:330:31:35

Well, I did...

0:31:350:31:38

Do you specialise in him?

0:31:380:31:39

No.

0:31:390:31:41

Basically, my daughter was a big fan and she introduced me to him.

0:31:410:31:45

We went to see him.

0:31:450:31:47

Believe it or not, James Blunt came at the side of me

0:31:470:31:50

and I got pushed into him.

0:31:500:31:52

-Look at that. That's brilliant.

-Yeah.

0:31:520:31:54

All right?

0:31:580:31:59

Do you consider yourself to have been a victim?

0:32:030:32:05

Are you happy with that term?

0:32:050:32:07

Em...yeah.

0:32:070:32:08

I would never let my children watch him on television.

0:32:120:32:14

As soon as anything came on about him,

0:32:140:32:17

I would turn the television off.

0:32:170:32:18

When Jim'll Fix It was on?

0:32:180:32:20

Yeah, anything like that.

0:32:200:32:21

But you said you watched the documentary I made in 2000?

0:32:230:32:26

Yes, I did watch that.

0:32:260:32:28

So what did you...? What was the feeling of...?

0:32:280:32:30

I was just really, really annoyed. I was, like, fuming.

0:32:300:32:33

I just thought, "Oh, he's a silly chap,

0:32:330:32:35

"he doesn't know what goes on. He doesn't know.

0:32:350:32:38

"So gullible." You know?

0:32:380:32:40

Why have you written my name and address on this pad?

0:32:400:32:42

Because I never know whether you existed or not.

0:32:420:32:46

Yeah. How did you get the address?

0:32:460:32:48

-I get anything, me.

-How did you get it, though?

0:32:480:32:50

I can get anything. There's nothing I can't get

0:32:500:32:54

and there's nothing I can't do.

0:32:540:32:55

Thank you.

0:32:550:32:57

You felt that I was gullible and silly?

0:32:570:32:59

Mm, oh, yeah.

0:32:590:33:00

You were young. And he was like, "I'm the celebrity.

0:33:000:33:06

"I'm... I'm big." You know.

0:33:060:33:10

And then that just came over that he was manipulating things.

0:33:100:33:14

What has been difficult is realising that...

0:33:140:33:20

I failed to get to the truth about him and that I wasn't able to do

0:33:200:33:24

more to kind of bring him to account while he was still alive.

0:33:240:33:27

Well, he was so good at disguising everything.

0:33:270:33:29

I was at school doing A-levels. But all hell went loose because

0:33:340:33:41

I found out I was pregnant.

0:33:410:33:42

I was too scared to let my parents know about it, and I had it

0:33:440:33:48

on January 18th and they didn't know.

0:33:480:33:51

I just wanted to go home. And there was a huge electric

0:33:510:33:55

two-bar fire behind the door, and I fell on it,

0:33:550:33:59

like this. So I remember looking at my hands and just fainting.

0:33:590:34:04

And then I didn't know where I was going, of course.

0:34:080:34:12

I just remember seeing trees go by.

0:34:120:34:14

I got to the hospital and obviously started to come round.

0:34:180:34:23

I couldn't use my hands. They were all bandaged up.

0:34:260:34:30

And I was sitting on the end of my bed and I was just

0:34:300:34:33

looking out the window, as I am now...

0:34:330:34:35

..and I saw somebody just running, but as they were running,

0:34:370:34:43

they looked at me, and of course I was looking at them.

0:34:430:34:47

And their run... They changed course.

0:34:470:34:50

And the eyes fixed on me. And they started running directly towards me.

0:34:530:34:59

And the next minute, the person tried to climb in the window.

0:35:020:35:06

And I just couldn't believe it. I was like

0:35:070:35:09

in shock, and he was climbing in, and by the

0:35:090:35:13

time he got down, jumped down, he was then

0:35:130:35:16

smiling but came straight at me.

0:35:160:35:19

Went to kiss me and stuck his tongue right down my throat.

0:35:190:35:22

Went for my face. Obviously, I couldn't use my hands.

0:35:220:35:25

Held my face and put his tongue right down my throat.

0:35:250:35:29

And it wasn't just quick. It went on and on.

0:35:290:35:32

And then he started jabbering.

0:35:320:35:34

"You've been a naughty girl, haven't you?

0:35:350:35:37

"You've been a naughty girl, haven't you?

0:35:370:35:40

"You've been a naughty girl with your boyfriend, haven't you?"

0:35:400:35:45

He just kept on repeating. It wasn't just, like,

0:35:450:35:48

going on to one sentence and then another. He just kept repeating it.

0:35:480:35:50

Because I didn't answer, he kept repeating it.

0:35:500:35:53

And there was things coming out about my health

0:36:000:36:02

and previous things, and I thought...

0:36:020:36:04

Straight away I knew that he'd seen my health record.

0:36:040:36:07

Something gave me the idea that he'd seen my health records or that he'd

0:36:070:36:11

spoken to the head surgeon, as well, whatever,

0:36:110:36:13

or somebody had told him that I'm on my own in there.

0:36:130:36:17

It sort of suggests that he had scoped you out.

0:36:190:36:23

I mean, I don't want to compare

0:36:230:36:25

something hideous that you went through to

0:36:250:36:27

something trivial, but in my documentary

0:36:270:36:30

there's a moment when he shows me a bit of paper

0:36:300:36:32

with my address on it, which was ex-directory

0:36:320:36:34

and therefore not easy to get hold of, that led

0:36:340:36:37

me to believe that he had somehow finagled his way into...

0:36:370:36:40

or knew someone with access to my... You know, some civil servant.

0:36:400:36:45

I think he probably did.

0:36:450:36:47

You've been with Clive about 20 years, did you say?

0:36:470:36:50

-Yes.

-And I imagine you spoke to Clive about

0:36:500:36:53

-the Jimmy Savile incidents?

-Oh, yes, yes.

-You knew about that before?

0:36:530:36:57

I've known about it in fleeting parts, only when Cherie has

0:36:570:37:04

-opened up about it.

-Mm-hm.

0:37:040:37:05

The most current question that people ask, I have

0:37:050:37:09

noticed, is "Why didn't you say something about it?"

0:37:090:37:13

I'm furious with myself, as well.

0:37:130:37:15

Why on earth didn't I just go up to somebody

0:37:150:37:20

and complain and make a thing of it?

0:37:200:37:22

But you were scared to. He'd got money, influence.

0:37:220:37:26

You know, that whole thing, you were, you know,

0:37:260:37:29

you were just, like, scared to say anything, you know.

0:37:290:37:33

'In 2000, Jimmy Savile had taken me to

0:37:460:37:48

'the hospital where he'd once abused Cherie.

0:37:480:37:51

'Throughout the '70s and afterwards, he'd continued

0:37:510:37:54

'to visit, raising millions for a new building.'

0:37:540:37:58

So, where are we, in fact? This is the Stoke Mandeville

0:37:580:38:01

spinal injuries centre?

0:38:010:38:03

No, this is the National Spinal Injuries Centre

0:38:030:38:06

at Stoke Mandeville Hospital.

0:38:060:38:07

'Is this the jewel in the crown of the Jimmy Savile accomplishments?'

0:38:070:38:11

I would have said it's the biggest. Yes.

0:38:110:38:13

How does it make you feel, walking through these

0:38:130:38:15

corridors which you were instrumental in building?

0:38:150:38:18

Well, seeing as they've been open for 20 years,

0:38:180:38:20

I don't feel anything now. Just nice and happy that it's here.

0:38:200:38:24

'At the time, amid all his bizarre qualities, Jimmy Savile's

0:38:280:38:32

'charitable work had felt like his great redeeming feature.

0:38:320:38:35

'In hindsight, it was a smokescreen for his abuse

0:38:390:38:42

'and a way of getting access to vulnerable people.

0:38:420:38:45

'I was curious to meet someone from the hospital

0:38:510:38:54

'and to hear how they made sense of it all now, looking back.

0:38:540:38:57

'Sylvia Nicol worked closely with Jimmy Savile on the

0:39:000:39:03

'Stoke Mandeville appeal.'

0:39:030:39:05

-Hi. Sylvia? Louis.

-Yes! Hello, Louis!

0:39:070:39:10

-Can I come in?

-Yeah, I'll let you come in!

-You'll let me? OK.

0:39:100:39:14

-I will.

-Thank you.

0:39:140:39:17

-Is that you there?

-Yeah, that's me. That's Jan, me and Marie-Ann.

0:39:170:39:24

In what capacity were you working when you first met him?

0:39:240:39:28

As a medical secretary, at the NHS

0:39:280:39:31

in the spinal centre at Stoke Mandeville Hospital.

0:39:310:39:35

He came to Stoke in '69, and it was

0:39:360:39:42

to do a walk for the Red Cross. And he stayed.

0:39:420:39:45

He basically made our office a bit of a base.

0:39:450:39:49

It was 2nd January 1980.

0:39:540:39:58

We had a really bad snowstorm.

0:39:580:40:01

All our ceilings were caving in. They were wooden huts built in 1943.

0:40:010:40:07

The lights were full of water

0:40:070:40:09

as the snow was melting, you know, that deep,

0:40:090:40:11

and it was chaos.

0:40:110:40:14

And Dr Silver then phoned Jim.

0:40:140:40:17

"You must come, you must come. You've got to do something."

0:40:170:40:20

And Jim did. And within two days, we were flooded with letters

0:40:200:40:27

into Stoke Mandeville.

0:40:270:40:29

Just "Jimmy Savile, Stoke Mandeville Hospital" is all it would say.

0:40:290:40:33

And in it would be cheques and money, fluffy toys,

0:40:330:40:39

-everything came in.

-And when did it open, do you recall?

0:40:390:40:42

1983, August 3rd was the opening day.

0:40:430:40:48

-That was where Prince Charles and Princess Diana came along?

-Yeah.

0:40:480:40:53

Prince Charles went to Stoke Mandeville Hospital

0:40:530:40:56

in Buckinghamshire today to open a new unit, and even

0:40:560:40:58

though it wasn't planned, he took his wife along with him.

0:40:580:41:01

Only I know the real reason the princess is here, and I must say

0:41:010:41:05

it's a complicated way of getting a request played on Radio 1.

0:41:050:41:09

LAUGHTER

0:41:090:41:11

When I said that it cost £10 million,

0:41:110:41:15

how on earth do you raise £10 million in three years?

0:41:150:41:20

APPLAUSE

0:41:200:41:23

-Oh, my goodness.

-You can get it out, if you can.

-Yeah.

0:41:270:41:32

-Can I? There it is.

-There it is.

0:41:320:41:36

So this picture, when people said,

0:41:360:41:38

"Have you got anything you can give us when we send you money in?"

0:41:380:41:45

we sent them this, quite a big photograph, probably

0:41:450:41:48

that big, of Jim, rolled up.

0:41:480:41:51

As a thank you for donations, yeah.

0:41:510:41:54

There's the Lego. And, as you can see, it's the same colouring.

0:41:550:41:59

-Who did that?

-Lego.

-Lego did it?

-Legoland sent us that.

0:41:590:42:04

Everything just came to him. It was an unbelievable experience,

0:42:040:42:11

that appeal.

0:42:110:42:14

Now, every morning I open this door and say, "Why don't you do

0:42:140:42:20

-"something about all this?"

-You do?

-I do.

0:42:200:42:25

I can see him. I don't quite cover his face,

0:42:250:42:29

and I say, "Why don't you do something about all this?"

0:42:290:42:31

Because I reckoned he could do anything.

0:42:310:42:33

Do something about what?

0:42:330:42:36

This...what's...furore that's arisen since he died.

0:42:360:42:41

-Do you really do that?

-I really do that.

-Why do you do that?

0:42:410:42:45

I don't know. I don't know. Because what else can you do? You can't...

0:42:450:42:49

I did pray to God a little bit, occasionally. Sort of said,

0:42:510:42:56

"Why is all this happening?"

0:42:560:42:59

Because it was just...shattering.

0:43:000:43:04

So, basically, am I right in thinking you don't really believe

0:43:080:43:13

that, um...

0:43:130:43:14

..he raped, abused, molested?

0:43:160:43:18

No, I've never said that I don't believe that.

0:43:180:43:22

I've made an absolute point of saying

0:43:220:43:27

I only saw the good in Jimmy Savile.

0:43:270:43:32

I never saw anything in that line.

0:43:320:43:36

And had I seen anything in that line, I would

0:43:360:43:40

have been the first to report it.

0:43:400:43:42

I believe that you didn't see anything like that.

0:43:420:43:45

-I didn't see anything like that either.

-Nor hear anything like that.

0:43:450:43:48

But I also have to, erm...

0:43:480:43:50

..believe those accounts and...

0:43:510:43:55

try to square them with... the person that I thought I knew.

0:43:550:44:00

But you didn't know him for as long as I did.

0:44:020:44:06

We've had a pretty ghastly time.

0:44:060:44:09

Go on.

0:44:090:44:11

I'm a victim, his family are victims

0:44:110:44:15

as much as anyone else would be a victim.

0:44:150:44:18

Who or what are you a victim of?

0:44:180:44:21

I'm a victim of... losing those memories.

0:44:230:44:27

And that is quite a big thing out of your life...

0:44:290:44:33

..because when you get older, your memories do become more important.

0:44:340:44:40

And that was many years of memories.

0:44:400:44:42

He wasn't a friend to me, he was a friend to what I'd...

0:44:430:44:49

..spent 50 years of my life with, which is the spinal centre.

0:44:500:44:55

And...

0:44:560:44:57

we wouldn't have a spinal centre there now but for Jimmy,

0:44:570:45:02

which would mean we wouldn't have a lot of people still alive.

0:45:020:45:08

-Look in the corner.

-Oh, yeah.

0:45:100:45:12

You needn't film that, but I'm not going to get rid of it.

0:45:120:45:16

-Can I take it out?

-Yeah.

0:45:160:45:18

Past...

0:45:180:45:20

-This one?

-Hmm.

0:45:210:45:23

It's been there for years. It's been there for...

0:45:230:45:26

It was Jim on one of his cruises.

0:45:260:45:31

That one can go back there. That's discreet.

0:45:330:45:38

So I try to only know, and I do know,

0:45:390:45:44

that I only saw good.

0:45:440:45:46

And that's all I can ever say about this.

0:45:470:45:51

Sylvia seemed a stark example of how Jimmy Savile

0:45:570:46:01

was able to win the good opinion of well-meaning people.

0:46:010:46:04

'In the two years after my documentary,

0:46:090:46:12

'I made three or four visits up to Leeds.

0:46:120:46:15

'There was always a professional reason,

0:46:150:46:17

'recording DVD inserts or doing press for shows.

0:46:170:46:21

'And I continued to be tantalised by whether the mask might slip.'

0:46:210:46:26

It's all right, no sweat.

0:46:260:46:28

'But there was also a social dimension -

0:46:280:46:31

'a part of me had come to see him as something like a friend...'

0:46:310:46:34

Don't think I've ever been here in the summer before.

0:46:340:46:37

Yeah, me neither.

0:46:370:46:38

What's happening now?

0:46:380:46:40

I'm just getting you the attention you deserve.

0:46:400:46:43

'..while he had begun taking a proprietary interest in my career.'

0:46:460:46:50

Your future is safe in my hands.

0:46:560:46:58

Not only is your future safe, it's also glittering.

0:46:580:47:01

We would visit a local restaurant called the Flying Pizza.

0:47:070:47:11

-All right, my pleasure.

-See you later.

0:47:110:47:14

SAVILE LAUGHS

0:47:220:47:24

These images now make for uncomfortable viewing.

0:47:280:47:31

In fact, the mother and daughter were known to Jimmy Savile

0:47:320:47:37

but it's striking, looking back now,

0:47:370:47:39

how he normalised physically invasive behaviour,

0:47:390:47:42

constantly blurring the line of what he was permitted to do.

0:47:420:47:46

She said, "I love your programmes,"

0:47:510:47:53

and the other one goes, "I think they're boring."

0:47:530:47:55

SAVILE LAUGHS

0:47:550:47:56

That's true. She said, "I think they're boring."

0:47:560:47:59

I know.

0:47:590:48:00

-Going home?

-Yes, please.

0:48:020:48:04

-Still got the Flying Pizza name on it.

-It is.

0:48:090:48:11

-It's Saint Carlo Flying Pizza.

-Yeah.

0:48:110:48:14

Let's hop out.

0:48:140:48:15

It's actually quite an unprepossessing building, isn't it?

0:48:190:48:24

I was back in Jimmy Savile's hometown of Leeds

0:48:260:48:29

for the first time since being there with him.

0:48:290:48:32

'I was with Susan, a woman who'd met him in the '70s,

0:48:360:48:40

'and still lives close to his old stomping ground.'

0:48:400:48:43

So you'd actually met him on these two occasions,

0:48:430:48:46

is that right?

0:48:460:48:48

Yes, the first time when I tested his eyes,

0:48:480:48:50

and the second when I delivered the specs.

0:48:500:48:53

I think it was 1972.

0:48:530:48:55

-ANNOUNCER:

-Jimmy Savile!

0:48:550:48:57

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

0:48:570:49:00

He used to wear great big plastic glasses.

0:49:030:49:07

And I remember the manager called and said,

0:49:090:49:11

"Your specs are ready,"

0:49:110:49:12

and that's when he said to the manager,

0:49:120:49:14

"Send the one with the big knockers and the short skirt."

0:49:140:49:17

That was how I looked when I was about 21, 22,

0:49:190:49:23

so that's...

0:49:230:49:25

-That's who you were at that time?

-That's who I was.

0:49:250:49:27

In those days, one of my main features was my boobs

0:49:270:49:30

and I always got teased about them so, yeah,

0:49:300:49:34

when he said, "Send the one with the big knockers and short skirt,"

0:49:340:49:36

it didn't mean anything.

0:49:360:49:38

-You know, I never thought anything of it.

-Yeah.

0:49:380:49:40

-Evidently, because you went.

-Because I went, in a taxi.

0:49:400:49:43

Clutching a pair of specs, knocked on his door and in I went.

0:49:450:49:49

And then went through into this really shabby back-to-back terrace,

0:49:500:49:55

down Consort Terrace it was.

0:49:550:49:57

So, "Jimmy Savile guided tours of Leeds".

0:49:580:50:01

-I didn't know they were doing that.

-Gosh!

0:50:010:50:03

That was April 2012. That can't have lasted very long.

0:50:050:50:08

Yeah, now I look at it,

0:50:180:50:20

I can remember going up the steps and ringing the bell.

0:50:200:50:22

And it was just disgusting, it was filthy.

0:50:240:50:27

Clothes... His tracksuits all over the floor.

0:50:270:50:29

Empty cereal packets everywhere. Just dirty.

0:50:290:50:34

So then what happened?

0:50:340:50:36

So then I took the glasses out of the box,

0:50:360:50:39

and I must have stood obviously fairly near him,

0:50:390:50:42

like this, to put the specs on,

0:50:420:50:45

and that's when he grabbed my boobs

0:50:450:50:47

and he actually stuck his tongue in my mouth.

0:50:470:50:50

And then as I stood back, he dropped his tracksuit bottoms

0:50:500:50:54

and said, "How's about that, then?"

0:50:540:50:56

And there was his...pink, wrinkly willy, as I described it.

0:50:560:51:01

And he said, "How's about that, then?"

0:51:010:51:02

Yeah, cos that was his phrase.

0:51:020:51:04

-That was his catchphrase.

-That was his catchphrase, yeah.

0:51:040:51:08

And then he just sort of got on with the rest,

0:51:140:51:17

put the glasses on, did...

0:51:170:51:19

Pulled his tracksuit bottoms back up?

0:51:190:51:21

Pulled his tracksuit bottoms back up,

0:51:210:51:23

and then just carried on as though nothing had happened.

0:51:230:51:26

Put the glasses on, and then he did this very brief interview

0:51:260:51:29

on a reel-to-reel tape thing, I think it was.

0:51:290:51:32

Having just exposed himself to you,

0:51:320:51:35

-he said, "Do you want to be on my radio programme?"

-Yeah.

0:51:350:51:40

Yeah, and of course, I'm there with this famous person,

0:51:400:51:44

so I said, "Yeah, OK."

0:51:440:51:47

APPLAUSE

0:51:520:51:55

This afternoon, as we celebrate Jimmy Savile's requiem mass,

0:52:050:52:11

it is our belief that although his body is stilled in death,

0:52:110:52:17

his flamboyant and generous soul lives on.

0:52:170:52:23

I listened to Radio Leeds, and they wanted people to come forward

0:52:240:52:27

with stories about Jimmy Savile,

0:52:270:52:29

so I put forward that I'd tested his eyes as a student

0:52:290:52:33

and that's where I stopped the story.

0:52:330:52:36

-DJ:

-"Back in 1972, I was a very inexperienced student optometrist.

0:52:360:52:41

"I had to test Jimmy's eyes.

0:52:410:52:43

"I later then delivered his new specs to his home,

0:52:430:52:46

"which was full of tracksuits, bling and packets of cornflakes!"

0:52:460:52:51

-CHUCKLING:

-That's a great story, that!

0:52:510:52:53

Thank you very much indeed for that, Susan, I enjoyed reading that!

0:52:530:52:57

Everybody else was texting Radio Leeds, and I thought,

0:52:570:52:59

"Well, I actually met him, I did test his eyes,"

0:52:590:53:02

so that's all I was saying.

0:53:020:53:04

I missed the second half of the sentence out.

0:53:040:53:06

-NEWS REPORTER:

-13 different police forces

0:53:090:53:11

are now dealing with a catalogue of complaints

0:53:110:53:13

against the late Sir Jimmy Savile,

0:53:130:53:15

including the shocking allegation

0:53:150:53:17

that the TV star molested a brain-damaged girl

0:53:170:53:20

at the Leeds General Infirmary...

0:53:200:53:22

When everything was revealed,

0:53:220:53:24

I realised that I'd had a lucky escape.

0:53:240:53:27

And then, of course, I sent yet another message to Radio Leeds

0:53:300:53:33

to say, "Well, actually, I sent a message to say

0:53:330:53:35

"that he tested my eyes, but here's the full story,"

0:53:350:53:38

and within half an hour,

0:53:380:53:40

they'd sent a reporter up to my work.

0:53:400:53:42

It's made me feel worse now than it did 40-odd years ago.

0:53:470:53:50

-Oh, I'm sorry.

-No, no, I can live with it.

0:53:500:53:53

It just makes you think.

0:53:530:53:56

It had taken Susan nearly 40 years to acknowledge to herself

0:53:580:54:02

that what had taken place was an assault.

0:54:020:54:04

It was as though Jimmy Savile's sense of personality and entitlement

0:54:070:54:11

had been so strong in life

0:54:110:54:12

that she hadn't felt permitted to see her experience

0:54:120:54:15

for what it was.

0:54:150:54:17

-TV:

-This has been one of the most important inquiries

0:54:260:54:29

in the history of this organisation.

0:54:290:54:31

What happened was profoundly wrong.

0:54:330:54:38

It should never have started,

0:54:380:54:40

it should certainly have been stopped.

0:54:400:54:43

Sexual abuse is sexual abuse.

0:54:430:54:47

It can never be excused.

0:54:470:54:49

When Dame Janet Smith published her report

0:54:500:54:53

into the BBC's role in the Savile affair,

0:54:530:54:55

among the many victims interviewed were the two women

0:54:550:54:58

who had written me a letter in 2000 and who I'd met for coffee.

0:54:580:55:02

'They'd come forward amid the tsunami of revelations

0:55:030:55:06

'to say that their relations with Jimmy Savile had been abusive.'

0:55:060:55:11

That was sort of the closest I got to getting the truth.

0:55:110:55:15

But at the time that I met them,

0:55:150:55:17

they were still describing themselves as his friends.

0:55:170:55:20

But I feel as though if they'd been more able to speak...

0:55:200:55:25

speak out that time,

0:55:250:55:28

I could have done more to bring out the truth while he was alive.

0:55:280:55:32

It was upsetting to realise that I'd actually met two victims

0:55:350:55:38

while Jimmy Savile was still alive.

0:55:380:55:41

I wondered whether if I'd handled the encounter in a different way,

0:55:410:55:45

they might have felt able to say more

0:55:450:55:48

or whether they simply hadn't been ready,

0:55:480:55:51

intimidated by the perception of his power.

0:55:510:55:55

Once he'd been unmasked,

0:56:130:56:15

the rumours that had circulated around Jimmy Savile in life

0:56:150:56:19

took on a whole new gravity.

0:56:190:56:21

I tried to think where I'd heard the rumours

0:56:260:56:28

and traced one back through my mum to my aunt,

0:56:280:56:31

who worked at the Mail On Sunday.

0:56:310:56:33

She told me she'd heard it from a co-worker called Angela Levin.

0:56:380:56:43

-Hi, Angela. Louis.

-Hello.

0:56:470:56:49

How do you do? Nice to meet you.

0:56:490:56:51

-Mind if I join you?

-Please.

0:56:510:56:53

So, you heard that there was an interest

0:56:550:56:58

in disabled youngsters when?

0:56:580:57:03

-What year was that?

-In the mid-'80s.

0:57:030:57:06

When you did your first profile?

0:57:060:57:09

Well, I found him despicable and I found him a bully

0:57:090:57:12

and I found him a control freak.

0:57:120:57:15

He would, I was told anonymously by one nurse,

0:57:160:57:21

play with little girls who were paralysed from the waist down.

0:57:210:57:26

I mean, it seems odd that in a newspaper

0:57:270:57:30

where you have the resources to get that story out there

0:57:300:57:35

and do something about it,

0:57:350:57:37

that if you believed it,

0:57:370:57:39

that you couldn't have somehow done something?

0:57:390:57:43

Well, I think it wasn't the case that if you believed it,

0:57:430:57:46

you could do it, because the libel laws were very strong.

0:57:460:57:49

He was also extremely connected.

0:57:490:57:51

He raised £30 million,

0:57:510:57:53

he could threaten to not raise another penny.

0:57:530:57:56

You'd have to be a very brave paper to do that.

0:57:560:58:00

Let me present a kind of alternate reality scenario to you,

0:58:020:58:07

that a nurse tells you

0:58:070:58:09

that Jimmy Savile comes to visit her hospital,

0:58:090:58:12

and he molests disabled girls, right?

0:58:120:58:15

Which is sort of... That's what she told you, is that right?

0:58:150:58:18

And then you then feed that back to the investigations team,

0:58:180:58:22

or some senior people at the Mail,

0:58:220:58:25

and they go to work attempting to substantiate that,

0:58:250:58:28

and he's caught,

0:58:280:58:30

and then maybe even hundreds of victims

0:58:300:58:33

are prevented from ever being molested.

0:58:330:58:36

It's not a scenario that ever happened.

0:58:360:58:40

I don't think I went back and told the investigations team.

0:58:400:58:43

No, but I'm saying, if you had, if you'd blown the whistle...

0:58:430:58:45

Are you trying to blame this on me?!

0:58:450:58:47

No, no, I'm just trying to, in a sense...

0:58:470:58:49

I mean, there were lots of people...

0:58:490:58:51

..see if there was more we could have done.

0:58:510:58:53

We as a society are attempting to learn from what's happened.

0:58:530:58:57

Yes, I think you mustn't be overwhelmed by someone's fame,

0:58:570:59:01

but I think that nobody is, in the same way, you know.

0:59:010:59:04

He was very, very famous, he had very, very good connections,

0:59:040:59:08

he raised a load of money for charity.

0:59:080:59:11

And I think that's very intimidating.

0:59:110:59:15

He knew people in high places.

0:59:150:59:18

Jimmy Savile's power had created

0:59:210:59:23

an aura of invulnerability...

0:59:230:59:26

..so strong that, even now, after all the revelations,

0:59:280:59:32

there are still those under its influence...

0:59:320:59:35

..as I had discovered when I'd interviewed Janet Cope.

0:59:360:59:40

This is my wedding certificate,

0:59:430:59:45

and it's got Jimmy Savile on it, look.

0:59:450:59:47

-Oh, yeah. "In the presence of..."

-And that's...

0:59:470:59:51

That's a good photo.

0:59:510:59:53

That's outside the registry office,

0:59:530:59:55

cos I had to start the ball rolling in the registry office.

0:59:550:59:58

And then we went to Stoke Mandeville church, at the hospital.

0:59:581:00:01

Basically, he gave you away, is that right?

1:00:011:00:04

-He did indeed.

-As a father normally would?

1:00:041:00:06

Yeah, but I didn't have any relatives,

1:00:061:00:09

so Jim was my nearest and dearest,

1:00:091:00:11

so I asked him if he would give me away, and he said yes. Ready?

1:00:111:00:15

Ready.

1:00:151:00:16

TAPE RECORDER CLICKS

1:00:161:00:17

APPLAUSE

1:00:171:00:20

'Today and days like this

1:00:201:00:23

'I think enrich the lives of human beings.

1:00:231:00:27

'When we get together on a day like today, it lifts us all.

1:00:271:00:32

'Thank you for coming, and God bless the both of you.'

1:00:321:00:35

APPLAUSE

1:00:351:00:37

Jim is now lying in an unmarked grave

1:00:431:00:46

on a hill in Yorkshire, and he's...

1:00:461:00:49

He's not recognised any more

1:00:491:00:51

as being the good, good person that he was.

1:00:511:00:55

I don't know whether you've seen it all, but it's made my hair curl.

1:00:551:00:59

Do you mean things that came out after he died

1:00:591:01:02

-about his activities?

-Yeah, that people made up. Yeah.

1:01:021:01:05

-Which he didn't do.

-Which you don't believe?

1:01:051:01:08

No, I don't believe it.

1:01:081:01:09

It was impossible for him to do many of the things

1:01:091:01:13

that he was accused of.

1:01:131:01:15

You've read the Stoke Mandeville report.

1:01:151:01:18

-Yeah, this one, yeah.

-And you didn't find them persuasive?

1:01:181:01:21

Many of these claims from Jim are going back to the '60s.

1:01:211:01:26

I mean, I was grateful if somebody gave me a pat on the bum,

1:01:261:01:29

but you can't apply the same rules,

1:01:291:01:31

because it was a different era, it was just different.

1:01:311:01:35

It's important to remember

1:01:351:01:37

that many of the allegations and the encounters

1:01:371:01:40

that are described are much more serious than a pat on the bum.

1:01:401:01:45

Go on, then, give me one.

1:01:451:01:47

Girls aged between 10 and 14

1:01:471:01:51

in which he puts his hand down

1:01:511:01:55

and touches them intimately, you know,

1:01:551:01:58

-in a totally unwelcome...

-I doubt it, I doubt it.

1:01:581:02:01

Do you think it's possible

1:02:101:02:12

that because of your close association with him

1:02:121:02:14

for so many years, that you've slightly lost your objectivity?

1:02:141:02:21

Do you think that's possible?

1:02:231:02:25

No.

1:02:271:02:28

No. Definitely not, I don't think so.

1:02:281:02:31

What makes you ask that?

1:02:321:02:34

The discovery of Jimmy Savile's offences has meant that

1:02:381:02:42

anyone who knew him has the task of reappraising

1:02:421:02:45

that part of their life.

1:02:451:02:47

Shall I put a finger on the knot?

1:02:471:02:50

INDISTINCT CONVERSATION

1:02:501:02:53

As I look back at rushes from my documentary,

1:02:531:02:56

I'm caught between a sense of missed clues

1:02:561:02:59

and an awareness of the distorting power of hindsight.

1:02:591:03:03

And I think how amazing it is

1:03:051:03:08

to realise he knows he's being recorded.

1:03:081:03:11

Now, then, hey! Hey, hey, hey, wonderful. Very good, very good.

1:03:111:03:15

Jimmy...

1:03:151:03:17

What was going on there?

1:03:171:03:19

Well, what was going on there is called opportunity.

1:03:191:03:22

And I'm a great opportunist.

1:03:221:03:24

And if I see a lady in distress, scantily clad,

1:03:241:03:28

I'm the first to offer my finger to put on the knot.

1:03:281:03:32

-See you in the morn.

-OK.

1:03:321:03:34

-Goodnight.

-Night.

1:03:341:03:35

In fact, in all the hours of footage I've seen of Jimmy Savile,

1:03:351:03:39

there is only one section I know of

1:03:391:03:41

in which he doesn't appear to realise he's on camera -

1:03:411:03:45

when the director of my original documentary taped him

1:03:451:03:48

after I'd gone to bed.

1:03:481:03:50

In the dance halls, I invented zero tolerance.

1:03:501:03:52

I wouldn't stand for any nonsense whatsoever, ever.

1:03:521:03:55

Ever, ever, ever.

1:03:551:03:57

I was always in trouble with the law for being heavy-handed, always,

1:03:571:04:01

but I couldn't care less about that.

1:04:011:04:03

Ejecting people who were mucking about?

1:04:031:04:05

No, I never threw anybody out. Tied 'em up and put 'em

1:04:051:04:08

down in the bloody boiler house

1:04:081:04:09

until I was ready for 'em - two o'clock in the fucking morning.

1:04:091:04:13

They'd plead to get out!

1:04:131:04:14

At the time, this material was shocking because it felt

1:04:141:04:17

so unlike the Jimmy Savile most of us knew.

1:04:171:04:20

You know, if a copper came and said,

1:04:201:04:22

"You was a bit heavy with that kid," or those two guys, whatever,

1:04:221:04:26

I'd say, "Your daughter comes in here.

1:04:261:04:28

"She's 16, she's not supposed to come into town,

1:04:281:04:31

"but she does and she comes here.

1:04:311:04:33

"I presume you'd like me to look after her.

1:04:331:04:35

"If you don't want me to look after her, tell me

1:04:351:04:38

"and I'll let them dirty slags do what they want to her."

1:04:381:04:40

"All right, Jim, all right."

1:04:401:04:41

"All right, then. Don't give me a fucking hard time, then."

1:04:411:04:44

"Yeah, you're right,

1:04:441:04:46

"you didn't give the bastard half enough, I'll tell you, Jim."

1:04:461:04:48

"Thank you, goodbye." I never got nicked.

1:04:481:04:51

HE CHUCKLES

1:04:511:04:53

-And I've never altered.

-No.

-I've got a zero tolerance, me.

1:04:531:04:57

Now it feels like one of the only examples we have on film

1:05:011:05:05

of Jimmy Savile behind the scenes.

1:05:051:05:07

The Jimmy Savile his victims knew.

1:05:111:05:14

-Hello.

-Hello!

-Are you Sam?

-I am Sam.

1:05:221:05:24

-Louis. How are you doing?

-I'm good, thank you.

1:05:241:05:26

-Nice to meet you.

-And you.

-Shall I take my shoes off?

1:05:261:05:29

Our paths crossed because we used to go to church

1:05:291:05:33

on a Saturday evening, which is where he used to go.

1:05:331:05:38

Because that was on the hospital premises.

1:05:381:05:41

It was the Stoke Mandeville chapel,

1:05:411:05:43

-in effect.

-Yeah.

1:05:431:05:45

My job at church was to take the collection plate around.

1:05:451:05:50

There was a little presbytery room, and that's where I used to go

1:05:501:05:55

and get my collection plate.

1:05:551:05:56

And he used to go and stand in there.

1:05:561:05:59

So I'd go in, I'd get the plate,

1:05:591:06:01

which would always be behind Jimmy Savile.

1:06:011:06:04

So I always had to reach to get the plate.

1:06:041:06:07

And then... And then he would do whatever he wanted to do.

1:06:081:06:12

-While the service was going on...

-Mm.

-..he'd be back there...

1:06:121:06:16

The whole time. He would never sit with the congregation,

1:06:161:06:19

he would always be in the back room.

1:06:191:06:22

-Now, how old were you?

-That was about 11.

1:06:221:06:27

Because my grandad had stopped, um...

1:06:271:06:31

had had to stop abusing me about that time,

1:06:311:06:34

because we moved to a different house.

1:06:341:06:37

How old had you been when your grandfather began molesting you?

1:06:371:06:41

From about two.

1:06:411:06:43

I was in hospital a lot.

1:06:441:06:46

-For as long as you can remember, in other words.

-Always, yeah.

1:06:461:06:49

Always.

1:06:491:06:50

It was easy for Jimmy Savile.

1:06:501:06:52

What he was doing was no different from what, you know,

1:06:521:06:56

had happened all my life, so...

1:06:561:06:59

He picked really easily and well.

1:07:011:07:04

Are you OK? I'm just aware that it's quite distressing to...

1:07:041:07:07

It's quite... I mean, it's a horrible thing to...

1:07:071:07:11

-We've heard...

-..hear about.

-We've...

1:07:111:07:14

It's quite nice, actually,

1:07:141:07:15

that Mum has got brave enough recently

1:07:151:07:18

to be able to do this, because then we're grown-ups, too.

1:07:181:07:22

So...

1:07:221:07:23

And Mum's our responsibility as much as we are hers, so...

1:07:231:07:27

Are you OK to go into a little more detail?

1:07:271:07:30

Yeah, as long as you're OK, because I'm going to say it as it is.

1:07:301:07:34

-Yes, please.

-I'm not going to make anything sound nice,

1:07:341:07:37

or...or I'm not going to soften anything.

1:07:371:07:40

I'm going to say the acts.

1:07:401:07:42

-Nobody really wants to hear them facts...

-No.

-Hmm.

1:07:421:07:45

And they're real facts.

1:07:451:07:47

I used to go in there, there were times when...

1:07:471:07:50

Because I didn't have my period for a long...

1:07:501:07:53

You know, I was quite late. So what I used to try and do

1:07:531:07:56

to keep myself safe to go to church

1:07:561:07:58

was, my oldest sister had Tampaxes,

1:07:581:08:01

so I used to force the Tampaxes into myself to try and...

1:08:011:08:06

..stop...

1:08:081:08:10

try and protect myself.

1:08:101:08:13

And I used to wear lots of pairs of knickers,

1:08:131:08:17

just to make it harder.

1:08:171:08:19

Sometimes he used to put his hands into my mouth, erm...

1:08:211:08:26

..while he was doing everything else,

1:08:271:08:30

touching wherever he wanted to touch.

1:08:301:08:33

I just used to think, "Just hurry up that bit of the service,"

1:08:331:08:37

so I could come out of the room.

1:08:371:08:39

But then I knew I had to go back in the room.

1:08:391:08:42

You know, I never looked up,

1:08:431:08:45

I never said to him, "Don't," because I knew he could.

1:08:451:08:50

I think paedophiles in general,

1:08:521:08:54

but especially Jimmy Savile,

1:08:541:08:56

he had a sort of instinct for vulnerability.

1:08:561:08:59

I think all paedophiles know.

1:08:591:09:02

I think they all know, they're so clever.

1:09:031:09:06

I was really backward as a child.

1:09:061:09:09

My grandad was the one who'd come and fight for me in school.

1:09:091:09:14

Fight for me when teachers would hit my head off a wall and things,

1:09:141:09:18

he would be the one to come and fight for me.

1:09:181:09:21

So it was so confusing, because that person

1:09:211:09:24

who set me up for everything was also my saviour.

1:09:241:09:29

All wrapped into one person.

1:09:291:09:31

I have lovely memories of my grandad,

1:09:351:09:39

which everybody else really struggles with,

1:09:391:09:42

because he took time out with me... a lot.

1:09:421:09:44

Now, I know now why he took his time out,

1:09:441:09:49

but if I'm to make that person a whole one person,

1:09:491:09:53

then I'm really in the trouble, because I've got no...

1:09:531:09:57

Where does your nice bit ever be?

1:10:011:10:04

And you can't do that,

1:10:061:10:08

you can't have a whole childhood of horrible stuff.

1:10:081:10:13

So I take the good bits out because it's easier to do that.

1:10:161:10:20

I think... I understand perfectly what you mean,

1:10:201:10:23

-and I feel as though it's OK to have the nice bits.

-Yeah.

1:10:231:10:27

You've got to take something somewhere.

1:10:271:10:30

Even people who do evil things do good things from time to time.

1:10:301:10:35

-Yeah.

-It doesn't make them good people.

-Yeah.

1:10:351:10:38

I grapple with what Jimmy Savile did -

1:10:381:10:42

he molested, raped, abused hundreds of people -

1:10:421:10:46

and at the same time, he was someone who, when he was alive,

1:10:461:10:50

I called a friend, which I still struggle with.

1:10:501:10:54

Do you feel like you were groomed?

1:10:541:10:57

I think "groomed" is maybe too big a word

1:11:001:11:03

for what he did to me, because, um...

1:11:031:11:06

..he didn't abuse me, he didn't abuse...

1:11:081:11:11

But mentally groomed, mentally given...

1:11:111:11:14

He mugged you off by giving you what he wanted to give you,

1:11:141:11:18

and did you believe what he gave you?

1:11:181:11:21

I believed parts of it. I thought he was a...

1:11:211:11:25

I thought he was an enigmatic person,

1:11:251:11:28

that he had a secretive... I knew there was a secret there,

1:11:281:11:31

I just didn't know exactly what the secret was.

1:11:311:11:33

And then I feel a bit ashamed, now knowing what we know.

1:11:331:11:37

I feel as though, um...

1:11:371:11:39

-You didn't do the right thing.

-Well, I don't...

1:11:411:11:44

I want to stand up and say that I don't really regret that,

1:11:441:11:47

in the sense that I don't want

1:11:471:11:49

to say that I've anything to feel ashamed of,

1:11:491:11:52

-in a sense, because...

-But you haven't, have you?

1:11:521:11:55

..I didn't see anything.

1:11:551:11:56

I accept that I was one of many people who failed

1:11:561:11:59

-to see what he was about.

-How did you fail to see that?

1:11:591:12:03

Because even then, you looked at him, you smelt him.

1:12:031:12:08

His mannerisms, to me, were all really obvious.

1:12:081:12:13

-Perhaps that's just because you know.

-Yeah.

1:12:151:12:17

It's like they say about quizzes -

1:12:171:12:19

-it's only obvious if you know the answer.

-Yeah.

1:12:191:12:22

What are you doing here?

1:12:341:12:36

Straight punter!

1:12:361:12:37

Boring.

1:12:371:12:39

Don't do booze, don't do drugs,

1:12:391:12:41

don't do none of them foolish things that I see on your programmes.

1:12:411:12:46

However, I suppose it's nice to do

1:12:461:12:49

somebody that's a bit straight for a change.

1:12:491:12:51

-Yeah.

-You'll have your work cut out being interesting.

1:12:511:12:54

Yeah. No, I know... Do you really regard yourself as normal?

1:12:541:12:59

-No. I regard myself as odd.

-Yeah.

-I think I'm odd.

1:12:591:13:03

It's sometimes said that monsters don't get close to children -

1:13:061:13:09

nice men do.

1:13:091:13:11

-The altar. That's the alter there.

-Why do you call it the altar?

1:13:151:13:18

Because I go to sleep in it and I smile

1:13:181:13:20

-and it's nice to be there.

-Yeah.

1:13:201:13:23

That doesn't sound like an altar to me.

1:13:231:13:25

-It just sounds like one to me.

-Really?

-Yes.

1:13:251:13:27

Now we know the truth about Jimmy Savile, it all seems so clear.

1:13:291:13:33

-Give 'em a wave, I want to see...

-No, no, in a minute.

-Why?

1:13:351:13:37

I'll tell you when to give them a wave.

1:13:371:13:39

Why can't we give them a wave now?

1:13:391:13:41

Leave it to me. Instinct tells me when to carry on.

1:13:411:13:44

I am the archetypal carry-er on-er.

1:13:441:13:46

We know how we're doing.

1:13:461:13:49

But in his time, he charmed royalty and prime ministers,

1:13:501:13:55

and millions of us who listened to him on the radio

1:13:551:13:59

and watched him on TV.

1:13:591:14:01

Cheers. That's really it. Have we forgotten anything?

1:14:031:14:06

Jangle, jangle, jewellery, jewellery.

1:14:061:14:09

JIMMY CHUCKLES

1:14:091:14:11

Excellent.

1:14:111:14:13

And so, to understand his crimes,

1:14:141:14:16

we should also remember how we were beguiled.

1:14:161:14:20

In light of the unmasking of Jimmy Savile as a predatory sex offender, and 15 years on from the BBC documentary When Louis Met Jimmy, Louis Theroux sets out to understand how a man who was at the centre of British entertainment and charitable fundraising for decades was able to get away with a long litany of crimes.

In this reflective 75-minute film, Louis talks to some of Savile's victims and to people who worked closely with him, and re-examines moments from the original film as well as footage that has never aired before on television.


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