Murder on a Sunday Morning Storyville

This programme contains some scenes which some viewers may find upsetting.

The suspect's going to be a skinny black male, wearing dark shorts,

possibly using, like, a small Derringer-type pistol.

Very, very tragic. Very tragic.

I'm Pat McGuinness. I'll be 50 on Christmas Day.

And I defend people charged with killing people.

James Stevens and his wife were at their local Ramada Inn.

They went to a continental breakfast.

As they left, they were walking down a breezeway in that hotel,

and somebody shot and killed Mr Stevens' wife.

At that same time, Brenton Butler was at his home saying good morning, taking care of his dog,

but those two events collided about two-and-a-half hours later.

He was arrested by the police and taken to be viewed by Mr Stevens,

and Mr Stevens identified him as the man who shot his wife.

This entire case, everything important took place in two hours,

between 7 and 9 on a Sunday morning.

And what the jury ultimately comes to believe about those two hours

is going to determine whether Brent goes to prison for life or is returned to his family.

On the morning of 8th May, I first read about the Brenton Butler case in the paper.

The article said a 15-year-old black kid had shot and murdered a white tourist,

and that he had confessed.

If true, that appeared to be the end of the story.

My immediate reaction was he had thrown his own life away,

as well as that of the tourist.

I had a chance later that morning to meet Brenton Butler for the first time.

What he told me about the case made sense.

What he told me about how the detectives had treated him made me angry,

and as I learned more, I became increasingly angry.

The suspect's going to be a skinny black male, wearing dark shorts,

unknown shirt, had on a hat.

Last seen on foot, running southbound,

possibly using like a small Derringer-type pistol.

And the latest update is a black male with a fish-like hat on, with a cloth build.

OK, Officer Martin, I've asked you here today because you've been listed by the State

as a potential witness in the cases pending against Brenton Butler.

Specifically, Mr Butler's been charged with responsibility

for the death of Mary Anne Stevens on or about 7th May of 2000.

I'm Ann Finnell.

I'm an attorney with the Public Defender's Office in Jacksonville, Florida,

and I've worked here for almost 23 years.

The canine officer, we were talking about how little we had,

just a black male in the area.

And I was actually facing north, and he was facing south,

and he said, "Well, there's a young black male right there,

"it could be him, it could be anybody."

I said, "Well, OK, I'll go talk to him," you know?

Being that we didn't have much to go on, I said, "Well,

"I'll go round there and talk to him."

So, I pulled out and drove over to him.

I told him that we had a murder up the street,

that the police were looking for anybody that may be able to help us

solve it, or anybody who could have seen anything.

I asked him if he lived in the area, he said, yes, he lived nearby.

I said, "Well, would you mind coming up here and talking

"to the detectives for a minute and telling them if you'd seen anything."

He goes, "No, not at all."

When you get to the hotel, where do you park?

I parked almost in that ditch, somewhere along in here.

I was half hanging in and out of it.

I remember having to jump across that ditch.

OK, so then what happens?

They went and talked amongst themselves for a minute or two

and went and got the victim's husband,

and he indicated that Brenton Butler was the person who shot his wife.

So he's about 50 feet away and he says, "That's the guy?"

Right. And we were all, well, kind of taken aback.

So, we had him come over even closer almost to the car at that time,

and he looked again and said, "Yeah, that's the guy."

Officer Martin came in and candidly admitted that the only reason

Brenton Butler was even stopped that morning was

because he happened to be a black male walking in the neighbourhood.

Now, think about that.

That means for every African-American in Jacksonville, Florida,

if they happen to be walking down the street,

lawfully going about their own business, not doing anything wrong,

that they're subject to being stopped and asked to get in a police car

and driven away from what they're doing...

..and subject to being shown to the victim of a crime,

with the possibility that that victim would identify them under the most suggestive of circumstances,

that being that they happen to be sitting in the back seat of a police car.

And most victims would think that they wouldn't be sitting in the back seat of a police car

unless they'd done something wrong, right?

So that's where we are today in Jacksonville, Florida.

And I personally find that to be disgusting and reprehensible.

OK, the case set for today

is the State of Florida versus Brenton Leonard Butler.

Is the State now ready to proceed with its opening statement?

-Yes, Your Honour.

-OK, Miss Stair, you may proceed.

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. May it please the court?

-Certainly.

-On May 7th

of this year, the defendant, Brenton Butler,

approached Mary Anne and James Stevens

at the Ramada Inn

and he demanded Mrs Stevens' purse.

Before she had a chance to comply,

he raised a gun to her face and fired,

hitting Mrs Stevens at the bridge of her nose, killing her.

The evidence that you will hear

that proves the defendant is the one who committed this crime

really comes down to two things. First, Mr Stevens,

the only eyewitness to the actual shooting,

positively identified the defendant as the person

who did this to his wife

and he will come here in court

and he will positively identify the defendant in court.

The second piece of evidence is that the defendant

gave a statement to the police

on the afternoon of the shooting,

admitting to the shooting.

That's great.

-May it please the court?

-Sure.

Counsel for the State. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

The evidence in this case will show you that Brenton Butler

did not commit this homicide and, in fact, could not have killed

Mrs Stevens, the morning of May 7th.

At 12 noon, you will hear that Detectives Williams and Darnell

began their questioning of Brenton Butler.

They asked Brenton Butler where he was Saturday night

and Sunday morning. "On Sunday morning, I woke up,

"I took a shower, I brushed my teeth,

"I saw my mum and my little brother.

"I took care of my dog and, a little after nine,

"I left to go to Blockbuster, to fill out a job application."

And the detectives told him,

"You're lying! We've got an eyewitness."

Detective Glover arrived at the Homicide Office before 6.00pm

and he will tell you,

he will tell you, that he was told that Brenton Butler

was ready to confess. Ready to confess.

Here is a boy who has said absolutely nothing but,

"It's not me, I didn't do this."

And at 5.56, you'll learn that Detective Glover

entered the interview room alone to talk to Brenton Butler.

And Detective Glover said, "You're not innocent.

"You're not innocent. We've got an eyewitness.

"It's niggers like you that make me mad these days."

-And Detective Glover said, "You know, if

-I

-had done this,

"I'd have thrown that purse and gun in the woods.

"Isn't that what you did?

"Didn't you throw that gun and that purse in the woods?"

And Detective Glover takes Brenton Butler, alone,

hanging on to Brenton Butler's belly belt, as Brenton is handcuffed,

into the woods, deep into the woods.

And in the middle of the woods, in that semi-darkness

right before it gets totally dark, ladies and gentlemen,

Detective Glover hit him in the stomach,

not once, but twice, and hit him in his face.

Could you state your name, please?

James Marion Stevens.

Now, the Stevens were in 142. That's on this side, right here.

OK, so, 142.

Now, this is where they turned.

It's about 7.30 in the morning. They've got muffins, coffee, paper.

They're talking to each other as they walk.

After you finished breakfast, did you see anyone

-on the way back to your room?

-Yes, ma'am.

I saw a black gentleman walking down the sidewalk ahead of me,

maybe 100 to 150 feet.

He had on short pants that went right below the knees

and a dark shirt.

Plus, he was wearing a hat with a narrow brim.

We were proceeding down, talking.

All this sudden, there was somebody

in my wife's face and my face and said, "Give me your pocketbook."

She first said, "Oh!", like that, and she started to drop

the pocketbook off her shoulder and her arm to give it to him.

So they looked up and then turned and wheeled.

He thought the man right handed, which makes sense,

because the bullet entered here.

So...turn with your right hand.

OK, all right. Turn.

The gun is less than 18 inches from her face.

He says, "Give me the purse," or, "Give me the wallet."

There's some conflict about that.

She starts to take the purse off. Before she can do it, he fires.

She's falling back.

How close was he to you?

Two and a half, three feet.

What part of his body were you looking at?

I was looking at his face.

But you indicated you also saw his gun.

Yes, after he told her to give him her pocketbook,

he raised the pistol and shot her, right in here.

And you're indicating over your nose area.

-Well, it's in the bridge, right there.

-OK.

You're indicating

-on the right side, the bridge of the nose, is that correct?

-Yes.

-OK.

-Now...

-Horseshi... No, not the right side.

I'm showing you the wrong side.

It was on this side.

OK. But you're indicating the bridge area.

-The bridge area, yes.

-OK. Now, the person that did this

on May 7th, that confronted you and your wife and shot your wife,

-do you see this person in the courtroom today?

-Yes, ma'am.

Could you identify where he is sitting and what he's wearing?

He's sitting right below Miss Nell, there. He has a red shirt on.

I can't see his pants down below the table. And he has on glasses.

Your Honour, if the record could reflect that the witness

has identified the defendant.

-JUDGE:

-It shall reflect that.

Is there any doubt in your mind that this is the person

that you saw in front of you on May 7th

pull a gun and shoot your wife?

There's no doubt, in my mind.

She fell almost exactly here.

Now, this is, what? 47 feet to here?

Apparently, by the time they made it from there to here,

Mr Stevens believes

the man had made it back 100 feet or so.

Start walking towards me from that point.

That's 150.

OK, stop.

So, he's got to make it from there to here in the time

they make it to here...

..if that's the guy.

-All of a sudden, the man was right in front of you?

-Correct.

-Two and a half feet away?

-Two and a half to three feet.

-No warning?

-No warning.

And by that, I mean, you didn't hear the sound of feet

-running down that concrete sidewalk?

-No, I did not.

You didn't hear the sound of feet running on the grass

-next to the concrete sidewalk?

-No, I did not.

-You didn't perceive any quick movement in front of your eyes?

-Not till he was there.

And you saw the gun?

Yes, I did. It was raised.

-A Derringer-type gun?

-Correct.

Over-under barrel?

Yes, stack barrel or stack...whatever they call them.

Mr Stevens, from the time the man appeared suddenly in front of

you and your wife, to the time he grabbed the pocketbook and ran -

four to five seconds?

Yes, in the neighbourhood of four to five.

-That's what's in the deposition.

-Four to five seconds.

-Yes.

1,001, 1,002, 1,003, 1,004, 1,005.

-Approximately that, yes.

-That's all the time.

-That's correct.

Now...the shirt that the man had on.

-You did not see a logo on the shirt, did you, sir?

-No, ma'am.

We're going to look at the physical evidence,

which will consist of what they took off our client -

his clothes, his shoes, his underwear -

not that that's any major concern.

The items collected at the crime scene -

his glasses, fragments, a comb.

This is submission number one, submission number two.

Mr Stevens, let me show you a photograph

that has been marked, "Defendant's Exhibit D".

Yes, ma'am.

You don't recognise that, do you, sir?

I'll tell you where it was at, but I did not look at it.

But I told you that shirt was a dark shirt that he had on,

and that's the way I identified it.

-Mr Stevens...

-That was on the front of his shirt.

You're saying that this was...

What was on the front of his shirt, Mr Stevens?

A logo, but I told you there was a logo.

Mr Stevens, are you saying today that there was a logo

on the front of the shirt worn by the assailant?

I told you, it was on his back.

My question today is,

are you saying today that there was a logo

on the shirt worn by the assailant?

No, not the original assailant.

Of the original assailant,

there was not a logo on the front of his shirt.

I believe that, later,

I told you when we were taking the deposition,

that I saw a logo on this individual,

and it was on his back, because I remembered it when he was turning.

-All right, sir.

-There's not any variation of it,

but he had time after an hour, two hours, to change clothes.

So, there was no logo on the shirt you saw worn by the assailant,

-is that correct?

-At first.

No, sir, not at first.

I didn't want to be terribly hard on the man, because, frankly,

I think the jury feels like he's been through enough,

but at the same time, there were certain points that I had to establish.

I wanted to do that in a nice way and it would have been nicer

if he hadn't thrown that shirt logo on me.

It kind of surprised me, when, all of a sudden,

he started talking about having seen a shirt logo.

But I think we got out what we needed to get out from Mr Stevens.

Isn't a true, sir, that you do not recall giving a description

of the assailant to a uniformed patrol officer,

who arrived shortly after the incident?

I did not testify to that in the deposition, no.

-And isn't it true...

-I told you... Excuse me.

Isn't it true, sir, that you do not recall telling that first officer

who talked to you that the assailant was a black man with skinny build,

wearing dark shorts, an unknown colour shirt and a hat

and carrying a Derringer-style pistol?

I can't remember what I told him,

because I don't remember talking to him.

'This trip to the Butlers is just to clear up

'some final questions I have about aspects of their testimony.'

This store over here is probably the only place between the motel

and Brent's house, on the way to Blockbusters.

As far as I know, the police have never yet checked it.

The police sent dive teams on a couple of occasions...

to check out that pond. Of course, there was no gun.

But they never bothered to knock on a single neighbour's door,

to see if anybody had seen him leaving the house

between seven and eight in the morning.

There are so many things they haven't checked in this case.

-The Sunday morning that your brother got arrested...

-Yes, sir.

Do you know about what time you got up that morning?

-Around 7.30.

-OK.

Now, as I understand it, when you woke up,

-you heard music from Brent's room, is that right?

-Yes, sir.

-Did you see him come out of his room dressed?

-Yes.

I think you said he had a navy blue and lilac shirt and dark blue polo shorts.

-What's lilac?

-I didn't say that. I did not say that.

-OK, well...

-I said a navy blue Nautica shirt.

-Nautica.

OK.

And when you woke up, Melissa was already out getting the coffee

-and so on?

-Right.

-You had your coffee in your room?

-Yes.

-You guys talk for a while?

-Yes.

Do you recall what you chatted about?

If you don't, that's fine, but if you do...

Not anything very significant.

-You didn't see Brent?

-I didn't, no.

-Did you hear him?

-I didn't hear HIM.

I heard music and bumping

coming from the room.

OK.

So, it's almost seven by the time you even check on the boys?

Right, right.

You go out and do your devotional,

-spend maybe 20 minutes out there?

-Correct.

Come back here. Now, he hasn't showered yet.

-He's just still at the sink.

-Still in his boxers,

because I remember he had on plaid boxers.

-So, it's maybe around 7.20, then?

-Yeah, could have been, yeah.

All right.

There was nothing unusual about his demeanour that day?

-He wasn't sweaty or excited or puffing or anything like that?

-No.

Just the same old Brent. Quiet.

You frequently go into his room to clean it and so on?

-You've never seen a gun in there?

-No.

-You've never seen ammunition in there?

-No.

-Never seen a fisherman-type hat?

-No.

-The only hats that you know he's got are these two and the skullcap?

-Yes.

And I talked some about the order of witnesses yesterday.

We may end with y'all, with Melissa being the last witness...

..for a variety of reasons. I think you guys tell a strong,

consistent story about where your son was at the time.

And of the four of you - no offence, Andre - I think she's cuter

than you are and makes a better witness.

SHE LAUGHS

All right?

And I think a jury hearing a momma talk about her boy

and since she actually saw him, like, four separate times,

she's kind of a critical witness.

Anyway, that's all the news that fits the print tonight.

We pray and thank you for giving the defence attorney wisdom from on high.

But then you are the great attorney.

We trust in your holy name.

-Bless this family. Amen.

-ALL: Amen.

-Could you state your name, please?

-James H Williams.

-And where are you employed?

-Jackson's Sheriff's Office.

Within homicide, are you assigned to any particular group?

Yes, ma'am. I'm assigned Homicide Team Three.

And who else is in Team Three?

Our sergeant is Sergeant Joiner. My partner is Detective Darnell.

Detective Beakowski and Detective Eason.

Going back to May 7th of this year,

were you actually there when Mr Stevens was first brought out?

I was standing at the car, on Richard Street, with Officer Martin and Brenton.

OK. And tell us about that.

Mr Stevens walked up, looked at him

and said, "That's him." But he said, "I want a closer look."

Mr Stevens asked if he could look closer, which I allowed him to do.

I actually opened up the passenger side door of the police car,

and Mr Stevens sat down in the car and he looked at Brenton and said,

"That's him." I asked him, I said,

"Are you absolutely positive that this is the person that shot your wife?"

And his statement was, "I wouldn't send an innocent man to jail."

-You were the lead detective in the case?

-Yes, sir, that's correct.

So the overall responsibility for the investigation would fall to you,

-is that right?

-Yes, sir, it should.

How many witnesses did you interview yourself in this investigation?

I spoke to a Cater Donaldson for a few minutes.

Did you do a thorough interview of her?

No, sir, she was too emotional to talk to at the time.

Did you do a thorough interview of Mr Stevens?

-No, sir, I did not.

-OK.

-Who did you do thorough interviews of?

-Brenton Butler.

-OK.

Anybody else?

No, sir.

So, you have this young fellow in there.

-He was put in a locked room, right?

-Yes, sir.

-OK.

-Sound-resistant locked room, right?

-Yes, sir.

FRIENDLY CHATTER

Is it OK to take a photograph of the room?

-There's nobody in there, is there?

-No.

-He's a serious guy. He actually married a friend of mine.

-Really?

Let's see...

Just measuring it.

It's about ten by ten.

So you have this young fellow in there

and you're asking him questions, and he's telling you,

"I was home and I had yoghurt and did these things, right?"

Yes, sir.

Wouldn't it be relatively simple

to go out and ask his parents, was he home?

-Yes, sir.

-Did you do that?

-No, I didn't.

Well, you do a thorough, competent, meticulous investigation, right?

Objection, Your Honour. That's argumentative

and absolutely has no relevance.

-Overruled. You can have some leeway.

-Is that right, sir?

I try to, yes, sir.

Wouldn't it be thorough and competent and meticulous

to just drive out there and pick up the phone and say,

"Can you tell me what your son's activities were today?

"If you saw him, when you saw him. What was he wearing?"

-Could you have done that?

-Yes, sir, I could have.

-Why didn't you?

Well, I was in the process of interviewing him. I had positive ID.

And I had parents that told two detectives that were on my team

that they had seen their son a few...30 minutes prior to them arriving.

-He had, he was in our custody at that time. And the parents...

-OK, wait here. I'm sorry.

-JUDGE:

-Let him go ahead.

And the parents had also said it wasn't unusual for Brenton to leave

early in the morning without them seeing him.

You knew he didn't have a gun.

You knew he didn't have a purse.

You knew he didn't have any money.

You knew he had a fisherman's hat, right?

-That's all correct.

-OK.

Did you ask Brent, "Can I go search your house, your room"?

-No sir, I did not.

-Did you get a search warrant for his house?

No, sir, I did not.

You wanted to find a gun and a purse and bloody clothes and everything else, right?

Yes, sir, that would have been nice.

So why not get a search warrant?

-Well, we just said we can get a search warrant.

-OK.

Did you go out and knock on any of the neighbours' doors and say, "Excuse me, did you see

"Brenton Butler outside of his house between seven and eight this morning, or six and eight?"

-No, sir, I did not.

-OK.

-You didn't do that, May 7?

-No, sir.

Do you consider that thorough and competent?

Perhaps I should have done, sir.

If you don't have it organised and you can't immediately,

what I call, discipline witness by punishing him or embarrassing him when he lies,

then they feel free to lie or to change the story.

If, on the other hand, he knows that every time he lies to me,

I can turn and go, "On June 29, you were under oath."

"At that time, you were asked these questions and gave these answers, is that right?"

"You knew what the truth was," and so on.

That has, erm,

a chastening effect on the witness. It's like, erm,

if a dog wets your carpet, you don't discipline him, he'll continue to wet your carpet.

If a witness lies to you and you don't discipline him or embarrass him,

they'll continue to.

If you smack the dog on the nose with a newspaper,

pretty soon it won't wet your carpet.

The same is true with witnesses.

Did you tell Brenton Butler

that you had sent policemen out to his house, and his parents had been told where he was?

Yes, sir. As I say,

the detectives went out to his house and spoke with his parents.

Well, "spoke" and "tell" are different words. Do you recall which?

-No, sir, I don't recall which one was said.

-Did you tell him

his parents have been told he was down there?

I told him his parents were...

detectives had been out to his house.

And that...the parents, the detectives had been at his house.

I don't know what was said,

I don't remember exactly what was said.

Detectives had been out to his house, that's one thing I remember saying.

As far as...how he took it,

whether they were informed he was there or not, I don't know.

He asked, "Have my parents come down yet?" I said, "No they haven't.

"But the detectives have been out to your house."

On September 27, when you are under oath,

knowing the matters you were being questioned about well in advance

and giving the answer that you did,

-you were certainly trying to tell the truth at that time, right?

-Yes, sir.

And since then,

you just don't recollect, or did you forget, or what happened?

No, sir, I just, I don't remember

exactly how that part of the conversation with Brenton went.

That's what I said.

So that part of the whole truth is lost to us, right?

No, sir. I... I...

-Do you know how we can establish it?

-No, sir.

-Then it's lost, isn't it?

-If you think so, sir.

Did you tell him that you would arrange for an attorney for him?

I said we could see if we could make arrangements for that.

OK. Did you tell him that you would arrange an attorney for him?

-I said we could make arrangements for that.

-OK.

Did you make the first arrangement?

-No, sir, I did not.

-Did you pick up the phone?

No, sir.

You just told the young man...

at noon, he had a right to an attorney, right?

-Yes, sir.

-And then you told him you had arranged for one, right?

-Yes, sir.

-But you didn't?

-That's correct.

You didn't take the first step on making good on that promise?

I didn't promise, sir, I just made a statement to him.

-And, no, I did not make a phone call.

-OK.

When you say, "We'll arrange an attorney for you," that's not a promise?

I don't make promises to individuals I'm interviewing.

-I'm not sure I follow.

-If you make...if you say you're going to do something...

Yes, sir, but it wasn't said, it wasn't brought across as something I promise you I'll do.

It wasn't said, "I promise you I will go do something."

So, you only do it if you promise?

No, sir. You said, you brought the word up, "promise".

-Well, you didn't do it, right?

-That's correct, sir.

Would you have done it if you'd said, "I promise"?

Well, I would have decided, when it got to that point.

You knew less than 100 yards from where you sat,

there was a court room in operation with a public defender, right?

Er, I'm, I'm not sure of the distance, but, sure, there was a public trial,

court room, attorneys were there, by the jail.

In retrospect, do you think perhaps

you could have been more thorough and more competent in the investigation?

Perhaps, sir, it's always to self-judge yourself,

to make sure you do a better job next time.

Thank you, sir.

I'm going to turn your attention to May 8th of this year.

-Did you find a purse during your morning walk?

-Yes, ma'am, I did.

And where did you find this purse?

In the dumpster at 63rd Main at All Star.

6.30 the next morning,

Mr Stevens, who collects cans for part of his living,

was travelling up this street.

He found the purse in a dumpster outside an alternator shop,

walked across the street and called the police.

He found the woman's wallet and identification in it.

He didn't know for sure whether there was money in there or not, but he didn't check thoroughly.

It turned out there was close to 1,200 in the purse.

They dump their trash, some of them, on the corner up here.

And that dumpster there is where the purse was found.

To put trash in...

..when it's empty, you'd have to lift those flaps and touch it...

..and probably leave fingerprints.

But the police never brought an evidence technician out here to check for fingerprints on it.

Between here and the Ramada Inn,

there's probably 1,000 dumpsters,

so I think there has to be some reason this one in particular was chosen.

There's a fair amount of drug-dealing and so on in this area.

It's racially mixed and there's a kind of a rough crowd living right behind this building.

To get...here in the Ramada Inn,

it's about a nine and a half-mile drive.

It's probably, without traffic,

about a 20-minute drive.

For a 15-year-old boy walking, round trip, it'd be quite some trek.

Mr Stevens!

OK, the pocket... It was white, it had some blood on it.

-Did you notice the blood?

-No, sir.

-OK.

-Did you look to see whose it was at all?

-I opened it up.

I took the wallet out.

Now, they didn't give the woman's name that was killed on television.

I found the pocketbook. All of her IDs was in it,

her credit cards and everything else.

-How are you doing, ma'am?

-Fine.

-My name's Pat McGuinness, I'm with the Public Defender's Office.

You called the officer, he met you over there, you gave him the purse.

-Then I left.

-Then you continued your route.

-Right.

When the police officer came back, the same one I gave the pocketbook to.

-Uniformed officer?

-Yes, sir.

-OK.

-He said, "Do you have a few minutes?"

I said, "Yeah." He says, "Somebody wants to talk to you."

That's when the detective pulled up and said, "Boy, where's the gun?"

-He called you "boy"?

-He accused me of taking the gun.

-And did he call you "boy"?

-I think if I recall correct, yes. If I recall correctly.

-Did you get the...

-No, sir.

-..strong impression that he thought you'd took that gun?

-Yeah.

Was his manner, the way he was dealing with you,

was it kind of accusatory?

He accused me of taking it. I said, "If you want to search me, search me.

"You can also search my buggy," cos that bag was on the back of it.

I had three bags of cans hanging.

"If you want to search it, search it, but I've got no gun."

-There was no gun in the pocketbook.

-What did he say?

He look dumbfound. The police officer says I could leave, so I left.

-I appreciate you taking the time to speak with me.

-You're welcome.

And, like I said, any stuff I've found in the past,

this is the first time I've ever had to go to court.

Well, hopefully it'll be the last time, but I appreciate you taking the time...

But now how the pocketbook got from Southside...

to the Northside,

-only God knows that answer, cos I damn sure don't know it.

-Nor me.

-How are you doing, sir?

-Fine, Mr McGuinness. And you?

-Pretty good.

When the detective came to see you, what did he have to say to you?

He got out of the car and he says, "Where's the gun, boy?"

"What gun?"

"The gun that's in the pocketbook."

"I saw no gun in the pocketbook."

"Now, if you want to search me, do so.

"If you want to search my buggy, please do so,

"but you're going to find no gun, cos I saw no gun."

-Was your impression he was accusing you of stealing the gun?

-Yes, sir.

How you doing?

Oakland, the Raiders, they're playing good ball this year.

They're a seven and one. The Chiefs is five and three.

And the Broncos, four and four.

INAUDIBLE

No, not at all. But I just want you to...

Everything went well today, as far as your preparation.

We're just happy with what we have at this point.

We have more than ample information

and documentation

to put before the judge

to let him know that, actually,

a lot of things really wasn't done properly.

Your granddaddy called me today and sung Happy Birthday to me.

He said you got a big birthday present coming,

so I don't know what it is.

(I don't know what it is.)

So, how... Let me see what I was going to ask you about.

-You're the birthday present.

-Yeah.

-You're the birthday present.

That's what I said to myself.

I said, "Shoot, the biggest birthday present I can get is Brent

"and that would be the best birthday present."

So let me let your daddy pray with you before we go, OK?

And I love you sweetheart, OK?

-OK, son...

-Let's pray.

Dear Heavenly Father, we come before you this evening

and, as usual,

we know that actually you are in control, dear Heavenly Father.

Dear Heavenly Father, we ask you to be in that courtroom

for us tomorrow, dear Heavenly Father.

We ask that you give Mr McGuinness all the tools that is needed,

and his staff, to really work on our son's behalf, dear Heavenly Father.

Dear Heavenly Father, we ask you to touch the judge, dear Heavenly Father.

We ask you to really touch his mind

for he can make just rulings in our favour, dear Heavenly Father.

Dear Heavenly Father, we love you, we honour and we adore you, dear Heavenly Father.

-We're going to give you the praise all of our days. Amen.

-Amen.

'They questioned Brent off and on over a period of 12 hours

'and they brought in a fellow I regard as a specialist

'in obtaining confessions.'

And he didn't succeed, and it frustrated him.

They took a 15-year-old boy out to the woods,

and the others left them alone and gave them their privacy,

so they'd have plausible deniability.

They left him with this specialist,

and that man punched him in the stomach twice

and punched him in the face.

They beat a 15-year-old boy because he said he was innocent.

-That's a Miller?

-Yeah.

Now, he looked worse than this when I saw him.

Yeah, he looked much worse than that when I took the pictures.

This one is good, but it still doesn't show him the way I saw him.

No, I saw him the same day you saw him,

and right in here was just swollen, awful.

Usually I wait to the end of the interview,

on the interview seat, to do the photos.

We stopped as soon as he came in to take them,

cos it was so apparent right in here.

You can see the glare a little bit better as far as the leverage.

Can Andrew do anything to enhance the resolution?

As far as it being on an African-American,

the skin tone's a lot different.

But we're going to need to explain to a jury

this doesn't accurately show the way he looked.

This one's pretty good.

'I contacted the State Attorney,

'which is something I generally don't do that early in a case,

'and I gave the State my photographs

'and I told him what I believed we could prove,'

and it didn't matter because they were politically in a position

where they felt they had to prosecute

to defend the honour of these detectives.

And everything that has happened since then...

..I believe, has been an effort

to defend the honour of these detectives,

who I do not find to be honourable men.

-Could you state your name, please?

-Michael Glover.

-Where are you employed?

-The Jacksonville Sheriff's Office.

-In what capacity?

-I'm assigned to the Homicide Division.

-How long have you been with the Homicide Division?

-Five years.

-How long have you been with the Sheriff's Office?

-11 years.

Where did you first meet Mr Butler?

In the Homicide Office, in one of our interview rooms.

What happened when you first went into the interview room?

When I first walked in, I saw the defendant,

and the defendant looked at me and he made a comment that indicated,

"Boy, am I glad to see you."

-Did you then have a conversation with him?

-Yes, ma'am, I did.

I asked him, "Was it an accident?"

And it was at that point he nodded his head and said, "Yes,"

and said, "I didn't mean to shoot the victim."

He began to hug me and cried, and I hugged him back, and he indicated...

he said that the victim had given him a mean look.

It was at that point

I got close to his ear and I said,

"Why did you shoot the lady?"

And at that point, he said

he didn't mean to hurt anybody, he just needed her purse.

It was after that he immediately made a statement

saying that he had the gun down by his side

and he raised the gun up toward her face and it fired.

He said after that he threw the weapon somewhere,

but he didn't remember where he threw the weapon.

What happened then?

At that part of the interview I asked him to tell me again

what happened with the weapon,

and this time, I wanted you to be truthful about it.

And it was at that point

he stated that he put the weapon

on the back of an 18-wheeler truck.

I told him, you've been truthful

and you've been communicating with me and co-operating with me,

and I was explaining to him how I appreciated that,

but I told him that I didn't believe that he actually placed the weapon

in the purse on the back of an 18-wheeler truck.

And I asked him again. "Tell me, where did you put the weapon?"

And it was at that point he stated

that he threw the weapon in the woods near the scene.

Yes, he is a black man.

His father also is the sheriff,

so it's just like...

..whatever Glover says,

a lot of people believe it's credible evidence, you know?

And he had been involved in so many different things.

I'm angry due to the fact when he said that when Brent saw him,

he just hugged him and said, "I'm so glad to see you."

And I know Brent better than that, because...

you really have to approach him, go up and talk with him.

And he's not the type of person that will run up and hug you.

You all probably have seen that in the courtroom, you know,

he kind of stays to himself, so it's like, what Glover is saying...

Like I said, I don't believe it.

-PROSECUTOR:

-During that time period when you were in the woods with the defendant,

other than holding the belt, did you touch him in any way?

-No, ma'am.

-Did you hit him?

-No, ma'am.

-Did you raise your voice?

-No, ma'am.

-Did you make any threats?

-No, ma'am.

-Did you threaten his family?

-No, ma'am.

And then also the interview you'd already had with him,

did you ever threaten him or his family?

No, ma'am, I didn't.

-Mr Glover, how are you?

-Yes, sir.

-Are you related to Nat Glover?

-Yes, sir.

-He is the sheriff?

-Yes, sir.

When did he become sheriff?

-Um, four years ago.

-July 1, 1995?

-Yes, sir.

-Was it '95 when you became a homicide detective?

-Yes, sir.

They were stuck with a problem.

You got two lieutenants, two sergeants,

you got the media camped out, with trucks there already.

You got a white tourist in Florida at a motel, killed.

But they're not getting anywhere on the confession,

so they think, "OK, we'll pull in an African-American

"to see if he can establish some rapport with the child."

Glover said - and I find this incredible - that the police,

that Williams and Darnell,

told him that they thought the child was ready to confess.

Those were the words he used, if I remember.

So he goes in with this state of mind that, hey,

this kid is ready to confess.

The first hostility comes about this when he says, "I did some bad things in my life,"

and the kid says, "I've never had any dealings with the police,"

and Glover gets upset.

He says, "You're lying. It's niggers like you that make me mad."

You were there to get a confession, we have established that, right?

-Yes, sir.

-And you didn't know whether he was innocent or guilty.

-No, sir. Not at that point.

-You told Brenton Butler to be truthful, right?

Yes, sir.

But you had a very particular idea of the truth you wanted, right?

Yes, sir.

You wanted him to say something different than what

he'd been telling other detectives since 10 o'clock that morning. Right?

No, sir. If he was involved, then, yes, I wanted the truth.

-You set yourself right up in his face, knee to knee, right?

-Yes, sir.

-And they teach you that in those interrogation schools?

-Yes, sir.

-You've been to five of those, right?

-Yes, sir.

And they tell you to get some physical contact

with the subject of the interview, don't they?

-What do you mean when you say physical contact?

-Touching people.

-Yes, sir. Some of the techniques we use involve touching people.

-OK.

-And you grabbed his hand, didn't you?

-I held his hand.

I never referred to Glover as "Detective Glover".

He didn't do any detective work in this case.

And it bothers the witness when he's not called by the title

he thinks he should have.

And my purpose when I'm trying to show someone is lying is to make them

uncomfortable, to make them offguard.

Sometimes, I like it when they fight me,

because when they do, I believe I'm going to win.

-How tall are you, sir?

-5'11.

-What do you weigh?

-240 pounds.

-You played high school ball, college ball?

-Yes, sir.

-Played line man?

-Yes, sir.

-As a line man, you hit people?

-Yes, sir.

-You were on scholarship?

-Yes, sir.

-You hit people well?

-Yes, sir.

-And you hit them hard, right?

-Yes, sir.

And do you think a 240-pound man considerably his senior

grabbing his hand was going to make Mr Butler more comfortable

and more willing to chat with you?

Yes, sir.

Is that generally the response you get

-when you go around grabbing guys' hands?

-I don't go around grabbing guys' hands.

I made that procedure from the comment he made to me when I first entered the room.

Well, did you ask Mr Butler, "Friend,

"little buddy," - you are holding his hand - "where did you get the gun"?

No, sir.

-Did you ask him who might have ever seen him with this gun?

-No, sir.

-Did you ask him where he got ammunition for this gun?

-No, sir.

-Did you ask him where he stored it?

-No, sir.

Did you ask him how or where he carried it to or from the scene?

-No, sir.

-You just weren't curious at that time?

-Not at that time, no, sir.

Gotten curious since?

Yes, sir.

-Done any more investigating?

-No, sir, it's not my case.

-"Not my responsibility"?

-No, sir.

-Yeah.

Well, weren't you a little bit interested in the murder weapon?

Recovering it? Yes, sir.

Didn't you even want to know what type it might have been?

No, sir, not at that time.

Why would three detectives take Brent into the woods?

I don't think they would take him out to the woods

solely for the purpose of roughing him up.

-I just don't believe that.

-Because Glover suggested it, that's why.

But Williams, who is the lead detective, presumably would know

that those woods had been searched already by patrol officers and dogs.

Williams doesn't know jack about his own case.

They would have to have a good faith basis to believe perhaps

the gun and purse were in the woods, don't you think?

I think they think, "Well, we haven't broken the kid.

"We know he got picked up around here, there's a good chance he dumped the gun.

"Let's go see if we can find it, and, if we can,

"we'll confront him with it, and maybe get a confession."

If I am understanding you correctly,

you're telling us you're having this conversation with Brenton Butler,

and he says he threw the gun in the woods, right?

That is correct.

Did he say where he was when he threw this gun into the woods?

On the roadway.

So it would be within an arm's throw of the roadway, right?

I would still be guessing, but, yes, sir.

-Well, you didn't say he kicked it, right?

-No, sir.

-You didn't say the gun had wings or anything like that, right?

-No, sir.

So you think an arm's throw was a fair inference from what you remember?

It depends on how hard he threw it.

Joiner and Darnell supposedly parked on the far side of Cagle.

According to... Williams, they spent like an hour in these woods.

According to Darnell, it was 15 minutes.

And just walking through these woods, with all the vines,

in handcuffs, at dusk, with only the good detective Glover to help you

would be a scary proposition.

If it is dusk and Glover is hitting Brent,

there is no way they're going to be able to see it from out there.

How long during your walk in the woods

were you out of sight of Detectives Darnell, Williams and Sergeant Joiner?

Maybe 30 minutes.

Do you know why everybody left you?

They were searching the immediate area where he originally showed.

But you had the guy who was supposed to know where the gun was, right?

Yes, sir.

And on your trip to the woods,

he had himself trussed up like a Christmas turkey, arms in front,

tied to his belt,

-and you had a little strap in the back?

-Yes, sir, he was cuffed.

OK.

And he really was not in a position to defend himself at all should

he be attacked by anybody, right?

I wouldn't let anybody attack him.

-Are you right-handed or left-handed?

-Right-handed.

So if you're facing somebody, you pop them,

do you more often hit with the right or left side?

Objection, Your Honour.

-JUDGE:

-Yes, sustained. Reform the question.

Now, you had gone out there, you say, expecting to find a gun, right?

-Yes, sir.

-Must've been kind of disappointing when you didn't.

-Was it?

-Yes, sir.

-You a little annoyed about it?

-No, sir.

-Did you happen to punch Brenton Butler twice in the gut?

-No, sir.

-How about once in the left eye?

-No, sir.

And, if you did, that would be a violation of department regulations, right?

That's correct.

And that could result in suspension or dismissal.

And if you had done that, would you tell us the truth about it, sir?

Yes, sir.

Is that not your custom, to tell the truth in situations such as that?

-Objection, Your Honour.

-Sustained.

And how did that appear to you as you viewed it?

It was a large welt, like he had been hit.

PROSECUTOR: Your Honour, I am going to object to any conclusions by this witness.

-JUDGE:

-Overruled.

-And does it show up on the defendant's form?

That's just a different view.

With a swelling, I take it from different angles,

so you can see it,

rather than a bruising that you can take straight on.

So it was right in that area right there.

There is a bruising right in here.

Where would that be on your body, Miss Smith?

Right in the middle of my chest area.

This time, we call Brenton Butler.

'Juveniles are not very easy to work with.'

They have a lack of sophistication, oftentimes limited vocabulary,

difficulty sometimes expressing themselves.

They are not as focused on things,

they have a tendency to be distracted.

How I worked with Mr Butler was to take the interview

that had been done of him and the affidavit that he had executed

for his bond hearing, and break it down into small pieces.

When you got down to the police station, were you put into a room?

-Yes, ma'am.

-And who came in?

Detective Darnell and Detective Williams.

Was the next person you met Detective Glover?

-Correct.

-Now, Brent, had you ever seen that man before?

-No, ma'am.

When he walked in, did you say, "Boy, am I glad to see you?"

No, ma'am.

What did he start talking to you about?

He started talking about sports.

Is he being friendly, is he being nice, or is he being mean?

At that point, he's being nice.

-Did there come a time when he became not so nice to you?

-Yes, ma'am.

-Did he use any racial comment towards you?

-Yes, ma'am.

What did he tell you?

He said, "It's niggers like you that make me mad these days."

-What did he do when he told you that?

-He started poking at my chest.

-With what?

-His finger, going like this, poking at my chest.

-Was he saying anything as he was doing this?

-Yes, ma'am.

-What?

Saying, "I'm going to get you. I am going to get you."

-Did he touch you again?

-Yes, ma'am.

-What did he do?

-He banged his fist into me chest.

-Show me.

-Like...

Did he then give you a scenario of what he thought had happened?

Yes, he said, "You accidentally shot the lady,

"you ran and threw the gun and purse in the woods."

-What did you say?

-I said, "No sir. I had nothing to do with that."

Does the issue of trying to go out into the woods

-and find the gun come up?

-Yes, ma'am.

-How far did Detective Glover walk you into the woods?

-Pretty deep.

And what is the lighting like inside the woods at this time?

It's pretty dim. Like, shady.

-At some point, did Detective Glover hit you?

-Yes, ma'am.

-Where did he hit you first?

-In my stomach.

-How hard?

-I fell to my knees.

-What did you say?

-I said, "I can't help you.

-"I don't know anything about a gun or purse."

-What did he do?

-Hit my stomach again.

-What did you do?

-Fell to my knees.

-Did it hurt?

-Yes, ma'am.

-What happened after you fell onto your knees a second time?

I was crying. He said, "You look pathetic."

He pulled me up by my shirt.

-Did you get hit again?

-Yes, ma'am.

-Where?

-Hit me on my left eye.

How hard did he hit you?

It wasn't no knockout punch or nothing like that.

But it was a hit. I took a few steps back.

I anticipated that the police were not going to admit that they had harmed him,

and it would be important to put his injuries into the context of the interrogation.

The only real way to do that, since there are only three detectives

and Mr Butler as witnesses to these injuries,

and since I anticipated that the detectives would be denying

the injuries, the only way to really explain to the court of the jury

how the injuries occurred would be for him to testify.

So when you saw Detective Darnell, what did he do?

At that point, he had pulled out a form.

And what did he start to do with that form?

He said, "You have robbed the old lady." He said...

He said, "You have robbed her. You robbed the old lady.

"And you pulled a gun real fast. You shot her.

"You ran home," or something like that.

And what is he doing as he's telling you these things?

-At that point, he is writing it down.

-OK.

And when he got done going through this, what did he tell you to do?

-He told me to sign.

-What happened?

At that point he was looking at his holster, like.

I said, what are you going to do, shoot me? He said you guessed right.

He said every 10 seconds that passed, he was going to hit me.

-Did 10 seconds pass by?

-Yes, ma'am.

-And what did he do?

-He hit me twice on my left eye.

-Did you sign the form?

-Yes, ma'am.

Now, Brent, did you shoot the lady, Mrs Stevens,

-at the Ramada Inn the morning of May 7?

-No, ma'am.

-Were you at the Ramada Inn the morning of May 7?

-No, ma'am.

Never been there.

-Good morning, ma'am.

-Good morning.

-Can you tell us who you are?

I am Melissa Butler.

-I think you said you usually get up before seven, is that correct?

-Yeah.

OK. And do you know if that was true this morning?

Yes, because I still can't sleep past seven.

What do you do when you get up?

Well, when I used to get up in the morning, I would go ahead and pray as usual,

go in the bathroom and do whatever I need to do in there.

It took about 10 minutes.

After I left my bedroom, I went directly to Brent's room.

His door was closed, I opened his door,

he was in bed, still, in his boxers,

but his back was turned towards the door,

his face facing his bedroom wall.

The next time that I saw Brent after leaving my bedroom,

when I was here, Brent was right here in the foyer area

near the fourth bedroom, which is here.

I would assume he was coming out of the fourth bedroom

from the laundry room, which is here.

Did you speak at all with each other at that point?

Yes, when we met, here, I said, "Good morning, Brent,"

and he said, "Good morning."

-Now, did you encounter any policemen that morning?

-Yes.

Did either of those gentlemen speak to you

or your husband in your presence?

-Yes.

-Tell me, if you would, about that conversation.

They asked, "Does Brent Butler live here?"

And we said yes, and my husband said, "What can I help you with?"

And they said, "Well, we just want to question him,

"we're not accusing him of anything, we just want to question him

"to see if he knows anything about the break-ins in the area."

Now, you went in and Brenton wasn't there,

and you told the police that, right?

Yes.

Did that alarm you or upset you, or was that unusual?

Well, it was not unusual for Brent to leave the house without telling us,

but it was very unusual for Brent to stay gone for a long period

of time, cos he would stay no more than 30 minutes to an hour.

He would have never left the house and just gone and stayed.

And that's what upset me.

And I called my sister, Emma, and I said,

"What could have happened to him?"

And she said, "Well, call some of his friends."

Sean is the only friend that I know Brent associates with,

so I called Sean on on my cellphone to ask had he talked to Brett today?

He said, no. At that time, I knew something had happened to my son.

So...

-Excuse me.

-Just take a moment.

There's water beside you if you need it.

Did you get to speak to Brenton later that night?

Yes, but it was very late.

Do you recall what he said to you and you to him?

He said, "Mom, I didn't do it. I didn't do it."

And he said, "I'm going to spend the rest of my life in jail

"because they made me sign this paper."

And I said, "What paper?"

He didn't quite understand because he was so upset himself.

And I said, "No, you won't". I said, "Brenton, just pray and hold on."

MUFFLED SPEECH

-JUDGE:

-It may be necessary just to get a complete

understanding of the conversation, so I overrule the objection.

So I told him to just pray and hold on,

and that his dad and I would do anything to get him out of there,

even mortgaging the house to get him out of this.

Thank you.

-OK, Miss Stair, you may proceed.

-If you need a break, just let us know.

I just want to clarify a few things,

that's all I'm going to be asking you about.

You indicated that the first time you saw your son

he was still in his bedroom?

Yes, ma'am.

And you are basing the time that you saw him on your regular pattern?

-Yeah.

-You didn't look at a clock?

-No.

And I think you said... Now, what time was it that you saw him

in the laundry room?

It was, um... Well, I was not exactly in the laundry room,

I met him in the foyer area,

cos I was coming out of the hallway leading to the foyer area.

-But that's on the way to the laundry room?

-Yes.

-OK, where you keep your cleaning supplies?

-Yes.

Your Honour, I don't have any other questions.

-Ma'am, you realise you are under oath.

-Yes.

Is there any question in your mind that your son was home

-between seven and nine in the morning?

-No question.

-I know my son was home.

-Thank you, ma'am.

INAUDIBLE

INAUDIBLE

No, actually, he said he didn't.

I've got it.

'They knew they didn't have a case.

'The detective went in and he wrote out what he wanted.

'And he is a man who gets what he wants.'

And then he threatened a 15-year-old boy and he poked him

and he displayed his gun and he got him to sign a piece of paper.

It was a pathetic piece of paper that made no sense,

that never has been since that day supported in any way.

There is no truth in it. But it was close enough for government work.

So you asked Detective Williams about talking to the defendant.

-Did you do so?

-I did.

-Was anybody else with you?

-No, just me.

Tell the jury about your conversation.

I told them had a decision had been made that he would be arrested

and charged with the murder of Mary Ann Stevens.

I told him that we would complete the paperwork

and that he would be incarcerated at the juvenile shelter.

And what happened then?

Once I told him about the incarceration, I told him that

if he wanted to tell his side of the story, that this would be his last opportunity to do so.

At that point, he touched my knee. We were sitting face-to-face.

He said, "When I talked to Detective Glover,

"he had told me there was an easy road" -

and he touched my opposite knee - "and there was a hard road."

I said, "Well, I wasn't present for that interview

"and I'm not sure what you're talking about,

"but as far as an easy road, I don't see one. I only see a hard road,

"this is a very serious offence."

With that in mind, I asked him

if at this time he wanted to present his side of the story.

He said he did.

I left the interview room, I told him I had to get the forms.

I talked to Detective Williams, who was still sitting at his desk.

I advised him that I was going to take a written statement

that he had provided me with his side of the story.

He said, OK. I said, "I need you to go in the monitoring room

"and monitor the written statement so you can witness the written statement." He said, "OK, fine."

What happened when you went back into the interview room?

We recorded a written statement on a Sheriff's Office form.

When we finished the statement, we read it over together, out loud.

I asked him if he agreed to it, and he said, yes.

He signs on the bottom of each side of the statement,

attesting that this is his statement, and at the end, I drew a diagonal line.

And he signed on that diagonal line as well as on the bottom

where it says, "Statement made by".

-Your Honour, I don't have any other questions at this time.

-OK.

Mr McGuinness, you may cross-examine.

'Before he came up for cross-examination, there was a break.'

I went out to have a cigarette, and, as I pulled my cigarette out,

he looked at me - and there is no love lost between us - and he said,

"Suck down another cancer stick."

I just looked at him and I said, "I always enjoy a cigarette before sex."

Cos I wanted him to know... I was going to screw him.

I don't think the message was lost on him. And I did.

Now, initially, when you spoke to him,

this young man was polite to you, that's right?

-Yes.

-He was calm.

-He was.

-He was well mannered.

-Yes.

-OK.

-And then you and Williams started calling him a liar, didn't you?

-No.

-You never called him a liar?

-I told him I thought he was lying.

-That wasn't my question. Did you call him a liar or not, sir?

-Indirectly.

OK. How about directly. Did you do that?

I don't recall calling him a liar directly.

-It's not in your notes.

-Probably not. I don't recall.

Does that happen with such frequency you just don't take note of it?

-Objection, Your Honour.

-Overruled.

Does that happen with such frequency you just don't take note of it, sir?

-What is that?

-Calling people liars.

-No.

I liked that.

I liked the fact that I didn't believe these men

and I didn't respect them because of what they had done, so... It puts you

in a fighting mood and makes you want to show them to be what they are.

-This is the first two pages of the statement, OK?

-Yes.

-All this information up here, that's in your handwriting?

-Yes.

-OK.

And, "I, Brenton Butler, am providing this statement of my own free will,

"without any threat or promise."

-He didn't say that, right?

-Correct.

OK. And..."Detective Darnell is writing this statement at my request."

-He didn't say that, right?

-Correct.

And virtually all of your statements start out the same way, right?

-They do.

-Everybody just asks you to write their statements, right?

-The ones that do.

-What percentage would that be?

I don't know statistics.

An extraordinarily high percentage, wouldn't it?

I would say most asked me to write, yes.

And is that because you have remarkably good penmanship,

or... Do you know?

I just always assumed it was that they were too lazy to write it themselves.

-But you knew he could read and write, right?

-Sure.

Didn't you think it might be a good idea to let...

If you wanted his side of the story,

to let him put his own side of the story down?

-This is his side of the story.

-OK.

"Last night, I got home late and didn't get a chance to eat."

-Did you ever check to see if that was true?

-No.

-Did he look malnourished when you were talking to him?

-No.

And Detective Williams was over in the monitoring room, was he?

Detective Williams was in the monitoring room.

So he would have heard him say all these things, right?

-I can't testify as to what Detective Williams heard.

-As far as you knew,

-the audio hook-up was still working over there, right?

-Yes.

"The woman gave me a mean look

"and mumbled 'nasty nigger' under her breath."

As far as you know, did Mr Stevens ever corroborate that in any way?

I've never talked to Mr Stevens or interviewed him about this case.

But you've read the report plenty of times, right?

-I've read what was relevant to me.

-Hmm. OK.

"And as I... raised the gun from my pocket,

"quickly it went off."

-Is that something he said?

-Yes.

"I had pulled the trigger unknowingly."

That was his language, "unknowingly"?

No, he said he did not know that he had pulled the trigger.

OK. So you just liked that word better, right?

This was how I wrote it when we formulated the sentence.

"I took the woman's money from her wallet and put it in mine." Right?

-Yes.

-He said that, right?

-That is what he told me, yes.

"And I went home to feed my dog."

Did he say why it was so important to feed the dog at that point?

I never got the impression that was important.

-That was just what he did when he got home.

-Right.

Why go home if he had completed this armed robbery and killed somebody?

-Did he say?

-No.

LAWYER COUGHS

"Later I was walking to Blockbuster Video to get a job application."

Why did he need a job

-if he had taken up this new career as an armed robber?

-I don't know.

OK. "When the police stopped me,

"the policeman asked me to come with him to the Ramada Inn, which I did."

Did he say why he went with the police

if he had just killed somebody over there?

He just said he was asked and he complied.

-"Complied" - was that what he said?

-No, that is my word.

-OK.

If we could, let's distinguish between your words and his. OK?

"The man who was with the woman I shot came to the car

"and told the police I was the one who shot her."

-Right, he said that?

-Yes.

And he is saying this stuff out loud, right?

-We are formulating sentences.

-Is he saying this stuff out loud?

-Actually, I am saying this and he is agreeing to it.

-OK.

Which of these words did he say out loud

that could be heard in the monitoring room?

-All of them.

-OK. Whilst somebody was in the monitoring room?

-Detective Williams was in there.

-So he would have heard him say all of these words, is that right?

The video monitoring room. Where is the video monitoring room?

Did you hear him ask Detective Darnell