Episode 1 Mr v Mrs: Call the Mediator

This programme contains some strong language

-We met at work.

-We just clicked. Something in us clicked.

He was nice-looking.

We just really loved each other.

Where did all that go so sadly wrong?

When people come to see us, their relationships are over.

They are in dispute about the most fundamental things in their lives.

Right, are we ready to go through?

This is Britain's hidden world of family mediation.

The house was going to be our financial security

for when we sold it and downsized later in life.

He comes back, he spends time with the kids,

then he disappears back to his new woman.

And I've had enough of it.

It's just pure bitterness and that's why she's doing it.

Why should I put up with somebody who's acting like that?

For a year, we follow the work of National Family Mediation,

who try to help feuding couples to reach agreement.

-Did I leave with any jewellery?

-You had...

Did I leave with any jewellery? That's all I'm asking.

-I'm asking you.

-Yes or no?

They need to find a compromise...

20,000 is nothing.

I'm not just having that.

..to avoid a costly court battle.

Why can't you come to London?

Why should... Why should a two-year-old child have to travel?

-I will say something.

-Are you able to stay in the room and continue?

-Yeah, I am.

-I am.

If she's going to sit there and make snidey remarks...

Good morning.

-Morning.

-Hi.

-How are you doing?

'I left in January.

'We just didn't really communicate.

'You just drift apart.'

-Hello.

-Hello.

I didn't love him any more.

This is to transfer the car over to you and you need to sign there.

'The difficulty we have is a financial one.'

I feel that she is being unfair.

Very unfair.

Choosing mediation can save a great deal of money and legal costs

and a court isn't dictating what you have to do.

Sitting down to try and resolve a dispute with your former partner

is very sensible.

It's also very brave.

Sue left her husband, Peter, ten months ago.

They have three grown-up sons, and have been married for 28 years.

Are you ready to come up?

-Yeah.

-Great.

They have asked Kay to help them decide how to split

joint assets worth almost £1 million.

There is a disagreement over how much money Sue should get.

Just this week, Sue sent me a letter...

..saying, basically, what she wants.

In the letter, I'd said half the value of the house

and half of the pension.

I don't feel that I can accept anything less than half,

because I don't think I can survive on it.

The starting point in law is equality.

And that is deviated from,

depending on the circumstances of the case

and the needs of the individual.

-Yeah.

-And we don't know what that is yet.

It's a fair point to say 50-50 is the starting point.

As I understand, most negotiations,

most couples don't agree to pay 50% of all the assets, and, in my case,

particularly so,

if that other the party is now living with someone else who can

and should, in my view, be helping to support her.

'She chose to leave.'

She chose to leave on 21st January 2015.

When I went up to the bedroom,

every single item of her clothing was gone.

The house had been cleaned more than it's ever been cleaned.

She left a casserole for the three of us in the kitchen.

Absolutely bizarre.

As far as I'm concerned, as of that day,

she had resigned from our marriage.

Furthermore, not only had she resigned from this marriage,

she had decided to effectively have another marriage.

What mustn't be forgotten here -

Sue's chosen to live as husband and wife with another man,

a wealthy man in a £1 million house,

and it would seem like I'm being asked to fund her.

Which I absolutely reject on all grounds, right?

On actual... The morality of it.

When I first left, I felt, obviously, very guilty.

I think probably at that point, if Peter had had a legal document,

I probably would have signed, virtually, away anything,

because I felt so responsible for causing a lot of pain and hurt.

But then, time goes on a bit,

and you start thinking more clearly,

and you start to realise that you can't possibly afford not to be

sensible and think of... you know, like, be selfish.

Sue is now living in the home of her new partner...

..and relying on his financial support.

I need the settlement to be enough for me to be able to buy a property.

I have somewhere to live at the moment,

but I need to support myself and be independent.

The massive difficulty I have is, I'm not mediating with Sue.

I'm mediating with her partner.

The letters I receive are clearly, substantially, not written by Sue.

Sue is not mediating herself.

Initially, when I spoke with her,

Sue said categorically that she didn't think

that she deserved half of all the assets.

As time has gone by, I would say, through external influences,

she, and mainly her partner,

she has sort of hardened her line,

um, and...progressively asked for more.

Peter is an accountant.

And so is Sue's new partner.

In fact, he used to be Peter's boss.

I know the man.

I worked with him for four or five years, so I do know the man.

Can we agree on a name that we're going to call your partner?

I'm happy to call him Bernard.

-Yeah?

-Yeah.

-OK. Thank you.

-Just so that everybody can...

Thank you, Peter. That's kind.

# Love is...

# The strangest thing

# No song of birds upon the wing

# Shall in our hearts more sweetly sing

# Than love's old story. #

She barred me from all her e-mails, barred me from the phone.

She moved without trying to tell me where she went,

so it's everything that she's tried to do to stop me seeing my boys.

It seems like a vendetta against me.

He's already here. So...I won't be a minute.

I always thought, if we ever split up, we'd always be best of friends.

You know, I always thought that. I always thought he'd be

part of my life for ever, but now...

I wouldn't want that man in my life at all.

About two thirds of the couples we see in mediation

are really struggling to find a way to share in the parenting

of their children after their break-up.

My job as a mediator isn't to impose a solution on them,

but to try and help them to come up with one for themselves.

Hi. D'you want to just come through?

-Yeah, sure.

-Right.

Nicky has come to mediation

to try to settle a dispute with her ex-partner, Martin.

Martin wants to see their two young sons.

But Nicky doesn't want to see Martin.

What I'd like to start with is to ask you both, in turn,

to say what it is that you'd like to get settled.

The boys want to see their father.

-Yeah.

-But there's got to be a routine,

not when it suits Martin's life.

OK.

How about you, Martin?

Pretty much exactly the same, but I don't know what she means by...

I know, like a regular routine, but then you've got...

I work different hours and all that.

The kids can't always be pushed to the bottom of the barrel.

-They're not, are they?

-I understand he has to work,

but it needs to be regular routine.

It's for the boys, so they need to know when they're seeing their dad

and he'd make sure that he was there at that time.

I knew her ever since she was 19.

She used to work in the same building as me.

Nicky and Martin first got together in 1997

at a pub in North London.

We'd be together for a while, then wouldn't see each other,

then you'd see each other and just things like backwards and forwards,

really. So I was never really in a proper relationship with her.

Ten years after they met,

they had their first child, and Martin moved in with Nicky.

But before their second son was born, Martin moved out again.

I suppose, like any mother, they want the father of their children

to be around. But if you don't get on as people,

then it's not going to work.

It's been worse in the last two years.

Every time we've ever had an argument, it's just straightaway,

"You're not seeing them."

Can you tell me what's the contact arrangements at the moment,

-or what's been happening?

-Absolutely nothing.

-There's nothing in place.

-So at the moment, there's nothing happening?

-No.

-No. So this is, you know, hopefully, what we can do today.

Yep.

It's a really awkward history with Martin, because when I...

Martin was actually, while he was seeing me,

was actually seeing another woman, as well.

No, no, no, don't do that. Come on.

'I only found out when I was pregnant with Harry.'

He had had a... I think it was a 12-year relationship with her.

And a ten-year relationship with me, neither of us knew about each other.

Can't you play football by yourself?

Nicky and Martin's two sons are now five and eight.

When you make children,

you expect to stay together and live as a family,

but that is just an ideal world -

it's not real life.

We have no relationship any more.

We have no trust any more.

When we do have communication,

it's...very hostile.

What sort of routine are you looking at, do you think?

For me, it's just to see them sometimes on a Saturday or Sunday,

if it would be possible, and have them back by seven.

Would that be all right by you?

-Obviously not.

-Well, let's...

Can I have a chance to think about it, Martin,

before you jump down my throat?

Can you stop with all the silly little things?

So...during the day Saturday or Sunday?

It'd have to be, like,

always Sundays or Saturday afternoons, cos I always work.

Sundays are not going to be possible for my eldest son, Harry,

cos he's doing his holy communion. It's his holy communion year.

-What time is that till, if you don't mind me asking?

-I don't know.

-Could you find out, at least?

-How can I find out, Martin?

-So...

Ask the church?

So, Nichola, what do you think might work?

A Saturday or Sunday's fine, but as I keep coming back to,

it needs to be regular. It needs to be set.

It needs to be... You know what I mean? Consistent.

Can I just say, now, why we're doing this,

because if he's going to have them,

I don't want them round his partner's house.

I don't want them anywhere near this woman.

When I told her I had a girlfriend, that's when everything stopped.

Everything. It just stopped.

Everything. That was... seeing the boys, everything.

Everything stopped and everything started becoming a problem.

Right.

Yeah, I mean, that... Within, you know...

everything that happens in mediation is voluntary.

It's about people doing, agreeing what they're going to do

because they want to do it.

-OTHER MEDIATOR:

-Amidst all the emotion, the couples we deal with

actually need to find a practical way forward.

The challenge is to reach a compromise that both sides can bear.

We've got the...

FFH is former family home.

-Yeah.

-So, what's the net equity in that?

725. It was valued six months ago.

One of the biggest decisions Peter and Sue face is what to do with

the house they shared for the last ten years.

It makes up three quarters of their wealth,

and Peter still lives here with two of their three sons,

who are now in their 20s.

Sue is living ten miles away with her new partner,

Peter's former boss, Bernard.

Where would you have been if it hadn't been for me

-looking after you?

-Well, I wouldn't have had a clue.

-No.

-No. I needed someone to tell me...

-Yeah.

Or to point things out, explain things, cos I didn't know anything.

Sue is a housewife.

She's never had to deal with anything on finances.

She hasn't got a clue what's going on.

And I'm saying to her, "You've got to try to get a good deal."

I'm not going to be able to look after Sue for that much longer.

We are limited to a degree, yeah.

Yeah. I'm 25 years older than Sue.

On 2nd May, I'm going to be 80.

Now that is bloody old!

All the time, I keep going, "It's all right.

"We don't have a problem."

But you've got to face facts.

What financial responsibility do you think you do have towards Sue?

Who? Me? At present, none.

My thoughts were, I suppose, that if enough money was raised,

I would be able to buy a property that I could rent out

to then, eventually, live in.

-KAY:

-I see, yeah.

But I'd have a rental income from it.

The problem we've got here is interrelated

with what happens with me, the house and the two lads.

I can't raise enough to pay her half of everything.

If Sue is insistent on having the money, then, obviously,

the house has to be sold.

Alex, my youngest, won't talk to me.

Right, um...

When I first left, the big issue was the family home.

They said to me, "Well, you're not going to make us move."

And obviously, at that point, that was the last thing I wanted to do,

so I said, "No, no.

"You can stay in the house.

"I'm not going to make you move."

But then, if we can't raise the money any other way,

than that's the only other option.

The only way her dream of having the 50% of all the assets will be

the house would have to be sold, and I'm not having that.

-I can't have that.

-Where are we going with this, then?

What can be done?

Shall we look at the kind of routines

that you would both perhaps like?

How do you think the pick-up is going to take place?

-I don't want him at the property any more.

-That's fine.

We moved house to get away from, like,

whatever was going on.

Give the boys a fresh start and I did, and then, and...

He managed to find out where I live. Know what I mean?

-Was that because you wouldn't tell me where you was moving?

-No.

Why would I tell you where? Cos you kept knocking at my door, crying.

-No.

-Listen, two weeks ago, he come knocking on our door,

"Oh, I want to come back. I want to be part of the boys' life,"

crying his little eyes out. He comes back, he spends time with the kids,

then he disappears back to his new woman and leaves the boys in turmoil

and I've had enough of it.

So what you want me to do? Come to Camden, drop them by your door...

You'd come to Camden anyway, wouldn't you?

You're being selfish now. You're not thinking about

-what's best for the boys. You're being selfish.

-Listen to me, then.

I wanted, if possible, a drop-off contact centre.

A drop off and pick up. I would really, really want that.

I think, moving forward, it would be better for the boys.

So the pick up and drop off taking place somewhere totally neutral.

Yeah, neutral ground.

That's all, keeping us well away from each other.

I don't want a contact centre,

because I feel... It's a contact centre,

I think it's unfair on the boys.

Why? They're only there to pick up and drop off.

-It's not unfair.

-So how long does that go on for, then? How long?

Hold on. We're listening to Judith at the moment.

Is there anybody that, you know, is neutral?

He's burnt his bridges with my family.

I don't want to see them, really.

-Is there anybody from...

-I'll do a contact centre,

cos she just gets what she wants, then, cos...

-It's not about what I want, Martin.

-It is, because...

-You make another suggestion.

-I'm talking. I'm talking.

So that's to find out, isn't it?

-Have you looked into it, then?

-Can you not point at me, please?

Can you not point? Don't invade my personal space, Martin.

I think there needs to be boundaries established and lines that we don't

-cross.

-So this is an idea which, in principle, you both...

Although you're reluctant to agree to it...

I'll do it, because it's the only way I'll get to see them, so, yes.

-I have to do it.

-You would...

-I just want to start things afresh.

I want to start things afresh. I just want to see my boys.

And that's it.

I was agreeing with most of what she said,

because it's pointless fighting someone

when you know she's not going to be... She's relentless,

and when she says that's what she wants, that's what she gets,

so you just have to bear with it.

As soon as he sorts the contact centre out,

we can start the contact, so that's, like, the ball is in his court.

So if he was to sort it tomorrow, he could have contact on Saturday,

you know? So the sooner he gets his arse in gear,

the sooner this can start.

# I see that worried look upon your face

# You've got your troubles

# I've got mine...

# She's found somebody else to take your place

RADIO: # You've got your troubles I've got mine. #

Good morning.

How are you doing?

I'm going in the containment room.

-Wow.

-She'll come and get you when she's ready.

OK, thanks.

People sometimes struggle with the mediation process.

They've gone from loving each other to...

Hate is a strong word,

but having a huge dislike for each other.

Yet they know they've got to resolve matters.

For some people, communication is almost impossible.

There was a demand six months ago from Victoria.

"Do not contact me. Do not send me messages."

Jason and Vicky split up four years ago.

Just take a seat there.

They've not spoken a word to each other for the last six months.

Jason wanted to do mediation.

I said, initially,

"I'm quite happy to do it, but it won't work," because the thing is,

if you are a high-conflict couple,

as we've been referred to in the past,

it doesn't matter if someone else is there.

If you're...That's how you are.

They are trying to co-parent their six-year-old daughter.

But they're struggling to agree on anything,

from holiday plans to where she'll spend the weekend.

Vicky has only agreed to mediate with Jason

if they remain in separate rooms.

Irene will shuttle backwards and forwards,

allowing them 15 minutes each at a time.

So what are the specifics that you'd like to talk to Vicky about?

There are lots of things that I could talk about,

101 things that we could deal with.

We'd never get through them all.

But I think taking a very big step backwards,

-and looking at the bigger picture.

-Yeah.

Victoria won't allow me to communicate to her in any form.

Really, until that's resolved,

I don't think any of these issues are going to be, um, improved upon.

It was not one dramatic event.

The communication side had broke down with us.

It spiralled, I guess. It had ups and downs, but, gradually,

it was going downhill to the point that Victoria decided she'd...

..point blank refuse to talk to me -

had some e-mails, "Do not contact me."

Since she and Jason separated,

Vicky has married another man,

and he is acting as their go-between.

It's not solving anything.

I'm quite a communicative person,

but from my perspective, the other side was a brick wall.

We're here, basically, to manage the upbringing of our child

and if you imagine a company with two directors,

and they don't talk to each other,

well, the company is going to go down

and there's going to be detriment to our child in some way.

And then...

-PHONE PLAYS TUNE

-Oh, that's my timer.

-OK, that's good.

-So that I remember not to let us talk for ever.

I'll keep you here all the time, otherwise.

So I'm just going to tap that off and I am going to see Vicky now.

I hope it's not too boring in here for you.

-No, I'll doodle.

-All right.

-Thanks very much.

-OK.

What are the specific things that you would like to be able to address

with Jason whilst you're here?

I want the passport back.

We don't have any Saturdays with her at all.

And I don't think that's reasonable.

That's what I want, basically.

Or to be discussed, at least.

Well, we don't communicate at all and I...

I'll be perfectly honest with you, I don't see that improving.

Do you want it to?

I would have said yes.

Six months ago, I would have said yes, but it's been so horrendous,

I just... I can't see a way forward

and being able to just go, "Right, that happened."

Communication is a big...

Yeah, is a big part of things.

What I often say to people that sit in these chairs,

if you could get your communication right,

-you probably wouldn't need to be here.

-No, we wouldn't. We wouldn't.

We did really love each other.

We didn't have anything in common, but we just really loved each other.

I think we were together for a couple of years.

We weren't getting on.

He was driving me nuts and it just really got unbearable

and we split up and we were both really upset.

And then I really missed him. It was literally a month,

we said we were going to give each other a couple of months

and I missed him so much and we got back together

and literally a month later, pregnant with her.

When their daughter Rosalie was two,

Jason and Vicky separated again -

this time, permanently.

She now lives part of every week with her mum and part with her dad,

transported backwards and forwards by Vicky's husband.

When Rosie came along,

Jason just wanted me to do everything his way

and I wanted to do it my way. That's when it really...

We started to argue.

But I still feel sad about it, four years on.

I still feel sad.

I want you to think about what are your best hopes for Rosalie.

I'm spelling it wrong, am I?

-It's OK.

-Rosa...

-Like that?

-Yeah.

-Sorry, you're getting...emotional.

-It's all right.

-I just really find it very upsetting.

-Oh, bless you.

-Sorry, I'll be all right.

-It's all right. Don't worry.

-It's just, this is not what I wanted.

-I know.

Just give it a minute. Just give it a minute.

It's just little things, like, you know,

if she does something and I think,

"Oh, I'd love to just send him a picture,"

-or I'd love to ring him up like I used to, and just go...

-Yeah, yeah.

You know, she did this, or she did that.

I wanted us to share everything, but...

And your reality, in respect of communication,

and in respect of your co-parenting relationship is,

you don't ever have to be friends.

-No.

-But you will always be parents.

-I wanted... I did want us to be friends.

-OK.

I thought we could be friends.

But maybe that's another step down the line.

First of all, this is about getting your co-parenting relationship

-to a level that is OK...

-At the minute...

-..for everybody.

-..we can't co-parent.

We've got this situation where you don't communicate at all.

So we now need to start very slowly building that back.

Sounds to me roughly like you're asking the wrong person,

because I'm not refusing to communicate.

I'm not the problem with the communication.

The reason I stopped it is the way he's treated me.

Dear Sue,

although I generally believe that your demands are totally unfair,

I have received agreement in principle from a major lender.

Since their last mediation three weeks ago,

Peter has e-mailed Sue with a cash offer.

He believes he can give her the 50% she's asking for

without having to sell the family home.

I'm trembling here as I'm talking about it, actually.

I'm giving more than I think I could honestly think I can afford.

To finance his offer, Peter would have to borrow £200,000.

-Wotcher.

-Morning.

So far, Sue hasn't said whether she'll agree to his terms.

If there are any demands which I'm not happy with,

I will just walk out.

Against my judgment, I would agree to a 50-50 split, as per my offer.

I think that's incredibly generous.

And therefore I feel that we could go ahead on that basis.

Thank you for starting, Peter.

Sue?

One of the queries, which I know you are not going to like,

is the fact that the date, the 31st January...

All calculations have been based on spitting our assets 50-50

at 31st January. That's ten months ago.

-Yeah.

-Today, when we were at the estate agents,

they're all saying that it's gone up between 7-10% this year.

That could be... What?

About £70,000, £80,000 difference.

But in what he says here,

"I am NOT prepared to negotiate on 31st January for the valuations."

Well, he's got no right to say that.

The valuation that you've got on the house is quite low

-to what it's valued at now.

-Yeah, we're not talking about now.

You left 31st January.

You chose to leave our marriage on 31st January.

Yeah. Is that correct, that, the date I leave,

-is that when everything should be... sorted?

-Not necessarily.

That's a matter of negotiation between you.

Perhaps, obviously, I'm...

The plan is that I'm buying somewhere, so everything...

The longer things are going on, everything is going up.

And I am going to have to... You know,

something I could have bought for £300,000

is now going to cost me £350,000.

If you can't agree to that date, then we've got nowhere to go.

Well, the increase..

Three estate agents, three estate agents.

And they've gone up at least 5%.

All right. So, Peter...

I'm just about to go. I can't face this. This is not going to happen.

If we can't agree on that, we've got nowhere to go.

So, Peter,

would you like to have five minutes one-to-one with me?

-I'm happy to do that.

-Sue,

could I ask you to pop down to the waiting room, please?

Thanks.

If she can't make a decision for herself,

then we're not going anywhere.

Unfortunately, the person who's making

these bloody decisions is not here.

Well, this is an exciting one, isn't it?

We met on 23rd December.

He gave me a kiss and that was it.

Just picked up one of those.

But this wasn't the first kiss that Bernard and Sue had shared.

35 years ago, Sue was an office junior at a firm of accountants.

The same accountancy firm that was run by Peter and Bernard.

I started at the company when I was 16 as a filing clerk

-and then Bernard was one of the partners.

-I met Sue there and we..

At that time, she was living with him.

Sue was Bernard's girlfriend.

They lived together for two years.

I was living with a lovely lady of 20, 21.

And there I was at 45.

I knew at that age I wanted children.

Bernard had three children.

She wanted to have a family.

I'd got three kids. I'd had the chop.

THEY LAUGH

There was no way I wanted more kids.

I suppose I have to admit that I broke their relationship up

by having a relationship with Sue.

I was in bits.

Oh, you know, it was... It was awful.

And then you meet someone again that likes you for you.

It was like the years just disappeared.

You are being selfish,

but you're doing what you think is best for you.

The bottom line of all this, Sue, is,

whether you are prepared to take £420,000.

Forget how it's calculated.

I wasn't joking in my proposal.

I'm serious. This is as far as I can go.

And...

I really don't know what to say, actually.

We've heard what Peter has had to say about affordability.

-Yeah.

-I know you'll want to go away and think about it,

but having heard Peter's reasoning

for asking for this settlement...

Where are you with that?

Yeah, I mean...

Yes, it sounds...

..close, yeah. Yeah.

It does sound reasonably fair.

And fairness is a difficult word.

Well, actually, we have to be rather practical about it, as well.

So, is that going to give you what you need?

I think so.

I have to... I mean, obviously I have to sort some figures out,

But I think, yeah, I think...

I think it probably would.

I'd like to think Sue's made this decision on her own,

and she's now going to go back to Bernard

and tell him that we've agreed this.

Do you feel like you have got an agreement?

Not completely, but I think we're getting there.

But I don't think we've got an agreement as such at the moment.

I've got to... go and think it through

and mull things over and, yeah, just make a decision.

# They say that breaking up is hard to do

# Now I know

# I know that it's true

# Don't say this is the end

# Instead of breaking up I wish that we will make it up again. #

I want him to stop sending me links to websites

of how to clean my daughter's teeth and stuff like that.

Here he's saying, "She needs to drink more water.

"Infection is fuelled by sugar, and her passion for processed carbs,

"pasta, bread, cake..."

Oh, here we go. These are brilliant.

"Perfectparenting.com.

"You can't love a child too much."

Gosh, it just goes on and on and on.

I... I literally couldn't ignore it.

I'd be like that on the phone.

How many links do you send?

Maybe one a week.

But they were instant messages, so, you know, like I said,

she's often said to me, "Stop sending them."

I said, "OK, just block my number.

"But they are related to my daughter.

"And if... If you are still feeding her sweets

"or if you are still giving her shoes that are damaging her toes,

"I'm going to send the links,

because she comes home with packets of sweets."

You know, there's still an issue for me.

Originally, it was good to be with someone that was confident

and got on with things,

but we had differences bringing Rosie up from day one.

As a father, you want to play a part.

My father left when I was two,

and it's almost happened exactly the same,

for different reasons, with my daughter.

It was the last thing I could have ever, ever wanted.

The worst thing in the whole world.

I wouldn't say my upbringing was very easy on me.

I've really vowed that it's not going to happen to my daughter.

She's going to benefit from my input.

Why will you not look at links?

They're about our daughter.

Vicky is asking, "If we're going to communicate again,

"I don't want to be in a position

"where I feel as though I'm not respected.

"I want us to have a new level of communication where I feel OK

"and I feel comfortable."

She is respected to a level.

I've always told her that she's a great mother,

but there's things, you know, I don't respect about her life.

He does not respect me.

That is an out-and-out lie.

Well, he's said he respects you to a level.

Yeah, that level between nought and ten would be...

probably 0.5.

What you see as respect and what he sees as respect

-are two different things.

-Yes.

So in his head, Jason is respecting you,

but how you perceive that, that is not respectful.

I don't feel like we're getting anywhere.

I feel like we've got absolutely nowhere.

I know it's difficult because we're in a different rooms, but...

we're just not on the same wavelength.

I just think a bit like, you know, the fact that someone...

I know this is not really for you to...

But the fact that someone who was supposed to have loved you

and you had a child with can make you feel like this...

you know, and not even want to be in the same room as them.

You know, how do you let that person back into your life?

Hello there. Hello. Have a seat.

Yeah.

Won't be a minute.

It's now two months since Nicky and Martin's first mediation meeting,

and Martin has only seen their sons once.

Would you like to come in?

The couple still haven't managed to agree

where the handover should take place.

I let him, in good faith, take the boys for a barbecue,

thinking contact would start up or resume again,

but he's had no contact since the barbecue.

-Sorry, did I...

-I'm talking.

I said, "I can let you have the boys on this occasion,

"because it's a family occasion and the boys get to see their family.

"But going forward, Martin,

"we have to stick to what we agreed in mediation."

She's told me a contact centre.

When I went there, there's nowhere to take my boys.

I'm not going to go round walking the streets with two little boys

for two hours doing nothing, cos there is nothing round there.

This is the drop-off centre Nicky chose.

It's a church, and it's just where I can drop off my two little boys.

The contact centre Nicky has suggested

is 45 minutes away from where she and the boys live.

It's something you have to pay for, it seems.

Everything is money, money, money.

It's £65.

But that's just, like, to sign up for it.

Then it's £15 every time you drop off your child.

I think it works out to £2,300 for a year,

which is absolutely ridiculous.

Where she lives, she's got a block where I could buzz a gate,

I can drop the kids off, I can watch them go up the stairs,

go into the door, actually from not even entering the estate.

And she won't even let me do that,

because she says she doesn't want me anywhere near there.

And I can't understand.

The only reason, I think, is just pure bitterness,

and that's why she's doing it.

Where Nicky lives, there's swimming pools, climbing places to go to.

There's a lot of restaurants I can take them to.

There's more for me to do in a little short area.

But if I'm further out, like Nicky's wanting me to do,

-at this other contact centre...

-It's not Nicky.

There's no contact centres in Camden, so it's going to be...

Either way we go, it's going to be a little bit of travelling involved.

I need a break. I can't really sit here too much, seriously.

-Martin, before you go...

-I find it hard.

-Right.

-I find it really hard.

Fucking hell.

Ahh.

The reason why we moved, really,

is just to break the contact with Martin, because...

..we seem to be going round in circles.

The hurt...just didn't stop.

I tried to disappear, but it didn't really work.

I need to move on and be happy in myself

and be a better mother to my children.

I would like the boys to have Mummy and Daddy together.

That's why I'm so forgiving when he does knock at the door.

But that's got to stop now.

And the less we have to do with each other,

I think the healthier it'll be for the kids.

Nicky is really a control person.

No, you are, Nick. Don't... Don't say you're not.

And if things ain't her way, then...

This isn't about me. This is about the kids.

It's about the boys. This is what I'm trying to say.

Oh, Martin, I've given you everything you needed.

All you needed to do is go to the contact centre, Martin,

but you totally disagreed.

Vicky and Jason are nearing the end of their session.

After two hours,

Irene is still trying to find something on which they can agree.

In respect of the change to the Saturday nights

which she is asking for,

what Vicki is suggesting is that you have her...

..every other Thursday to Saturday,

and she is saying that one of the reasons is because she would like

to have a Saturday with Rosalie.

-She works Saturday, though.

-And...

I'm just telling you what she says. She would like...

She's worked every Saturday for the last six years.

That's why I've had my daughter and gave up my work on Saturdays.

-OK.

-If she could explain why I've taken every Saturday off

for six years, why she suddenly wants to have a Saturday with her...

No, it's just convenient.

As far as I'm concerned, it's convenient, to suit her.

I don't have to work on a Saturday.

I'm not being rude, but that's none of his business.

If I say I want to have her on a Saturday,

it's because I want to have her on a Saturday.

This is the problem, you see.

It's wanting to know everything and be...

But is there anything that you want me to say in response to that?

Yeah. But I'm not going to say it!

SHE LAUGHS

"Is it because it is more convenient?"

What does that mean?

-Convenient in what respect?

-For your life.

-No.

But that's... I tell you what, I am literally on the verge of going,

-"I'm done."

-We are done, cos I've got to go.

-No, I mean, I'm done.

I'm not doing this again.

Because I think it is obvious we're not getting anywhere.

We've been here for two hours.

We're nowhere.

We are nowhere.

I have to draw the line.

I'm not letting that back into my life.

No.

OK.

Vicky has drawn a line under...

Yeah, I'm not surprised.

Yeah.

And all I can do is wish you well and hope that, you know,

the right outcomes happen.

Either of you could move from your current positions

and call an end to this. Either of you could do that.

Yeah.

MUSIC: Aquarius (Let The Sunshine In) by The Fifth Dimension

Sue and Peter have now been in mediation for three months.

Since their last meeting,

Sue has given Peter's cash offer further consideration.

Unfortunately, when I get in those meetings I just go to pieces.

I suppose I just think that what everyone else is saying

seems reasonable and I just agree to things or think it's right,

and then, obviously, I discuss it with someone else

who's looking at it from a different point of view -

ie Bernard, obviously -

and he sees things obviously in a completely different way.

-Morning.

-Morning.

-You have trouble parking?

-No.

I came here earlier, had a coffee.

Oh.

In a financial dispute,

our aim is a written agreement

that's ready to be checked by both sides' solicitors,

and then made legally binding.

If we don't get there,

the couple can quickly find themselves in a courtroom battle

with their costs rocketing into tens of thousands of pounds.

Divorce law obliges Peter to disclose his finances

for the 11 months since Sue left him.

But he's refusing to do this until Sue agrees a deal.

She knew what the entire assets of the marriage were on 31st January,

when she left. And I did that a week after we split.

As far as I'm concerned, everything else is irrelevant now.

I'm prepared to give full disclosure if we've got full agreement.

How can we do a full agreement without...?

We had an agreement after the last meeting.

-You walked away from it.

-That wasn't...

-Yeah.

You said you think you can.

-You said.

-Yeah.

So, does it seems that

this proposal that is on the table

is still enough to achieve what you need to achieve in the future?

I still... I know I keep going on about it,

but it's just the full disclosure thing.

I think, without that...

Can I say something first, please?

Every time I seem to get some sort of agreement with Sue

about anything, it changes the next time.

This has happened again. I understand why it's happening,

because Sue goes and talks to Bernard.

But this can't keep happening, because there's no point.

We can't mediate when the person who is making the decisions is not here.

Sue, in the interest of making progress while we are here today...

..how would you feel about us taking a break,

having a conversation with Bernard,

and then we'll reconvene to see whether we can go forward?

Or whether we actually can't.

Nicky and Martin have now been in mediation for four months.

Today they are returning for a third meeting.

Very brave man. Very silly man.

Am I? What are you smiling at with your mates?

Absolutely lovely.

-I'm not smiling.

-This'll be very quick,

cos this ain't going any further with her.

No further now. She found out I was on a dating website.

And that was it, just went absolutely loopy.

So where do you want to start?

Just want to see my kids, that's all I want.

If that's all he wanted, we wouldn't be at the situation we are now.

Sometimes things blow up and, you know, they obliterate, like,

-normal life.

-I just want to see my kids and that's all I want to do.

This woman is hellbent on stopping me.

-And always has been.

-Let's just stop...

Let's just stop at "you want to see your kids".

-That's all I want.

-Because if you're kind of throwing things back

at each other, it's going to be horrible for you.

-That's fair enough.

-And that you had a plan that looked like it was going

to work. Did you have contact, Martin?

It's been fine. I been picking them up,

I've been dropping them off by her place.

The contact centre agreement, as much as I'd have liked that to work,

cos I think it would have been best all round,

where it was, the location it was in,

at the time of night we'd be getting there, it was just,

it was all too much. I didn't feel safe.

Harry didn't feel safe.

I weren't willing to go back to that contact centre.

Nicky decided to give up her idea of a contact centre.

Instead, she and Martin decided that the handover should take place

outside Nicky's flat.

The reason we are talking simply now is only dependent on one reason

and that is because he's split up with his partner again.

When his partner is not in the picture, we can correspond,

we can be civil to each other, and we can, like, co-parent.

It's hard not to give him another chance,

because it's what the boys want so desperately.

I don't know. I don't know how this is going to play out.

So, there's something here, obviously, going on

which I'm not aware of, and I don't know if it's...

Since our last mediation session, lots of things have happened.

He's put my safety at risk, he's put my health at risk,

and I'm not prepared to have this man in my life any more.

-OK.

-I don't want to be in your life.

Really? Is that why you break into my house,

climb through my bathroom window when the kids are asleep?

Don't want to be in my life? Pestering me for sex all the time?

Don't want to be in my life? While you are trailing the internet

for women? You are disgusting, Martin.

I had to go for a full health check because of you.

-Right, I haven't even slept with anyone.

-You've slept with me.

-What...

-He crossed a line again. He crossed a line again.

What's happened is that you've had some intimacy, yeah?

You obviously have a relationship that's not quite over.

HE GUFFAWS

No, seriously. Seriously.

In her mind, no.

Something has happened.

Whatever's happened has happened. I just want it to go back as it was,

-where I will pick up the boys from somewhere.

-All right.

-Sorry, what was that?

-Nicky, please don't interrupt...

-No, no.

-Please can you just say what you said?

-No, she said not to interrupt.

-No, I don't... What I want...

-No, Judith, can you ask...

She either tells me what she was going to say,

-otherwise I will walk out of this room now.

-No, I want...

-What did you say, Nick?

-No.

-I'll go.

If she's going to sit there and make snidey remarks at me

and don't want to speak, we're done.

Sue has been on the phone to Bernard for nearly ten minutes.

I'm not diverging all this information to Bernard,

because Bernard will just go through it all and start attacking me again.

He'll say to her that I'm not providing information

because I've got something to hide or my income is so high.

Do you think she believes that you're being deceitful about this

in some way?

Um...

No.

No. I don't think so.

Why do you say that?

Well, despite everything, she knows me.

She knows me.

Without full disclosure, I'm not going to... I can't.

I won't go any further.

Bernard considers that's the way it should be.

-OK.

-I need to...

Right, shall we go?

Can I just - before we completely finish -

-have a farewell five minutes with you?

-Mm-hm.

When this sort of things happen,

I really encourage clients to go and see a lawyer,

get your advice, and see how far we are away

from what we might realistically achieve as a settlement?

If there's anything left here

that we can do to keep you two

out of court...

..why wouldn't we want to try and do that together?

So, thank you very much.

-Thank you.

-I must run. I'm afraid I've got to be somewhere.

-Yes.

-Thank you again, Kay. You've been a great help. Cheerio.

-Bye-bye.

-Bye.

The thing I have learnt over the years is that...

it's never over until it's over.

Once people embark on mediation,

they do start to see things differently.

So, no matter how tricky it all gets, there's always hope.

Come on, then, Harry.

In the five months after he walked out of mediation,

Martin only saw the children once.

I've got two lovely kids and we've just got to bring them up properly.

Which she does do. She's a good mother.

Don't need to not have contact with her,

not get involved with her personally. Wasn't a great idea.

He and Nicky are considering their next steps.

You don't want everything to just go to pieces and end up with nothing.

Just hope, and just see how we get on from there.

Vicky decided that further mediation

wouldn't help her end the dispute with Jason.

It's like a roundabout going round and round,

or something rolling down a hill.

I'd really like to get off now.

I'd really like to get off.

But you can't.

Why not?

Because...you can't just get off on your own.

Could you just put a stop to it?

I don't know how. I don't know how.

Vicky asked a court to decide where Rosalie should spend her Saturdays.

She and Jason have since begun to speak to each other again.

Do come on up.

Six weeks after their mediation broke down,

Peter and Sue returned for one more meeting.

As I understand it, you have got an agreement.

Have we?

-Yeah.

-OK, good.

You do feel like a weight's off your shoulders.

It was just getting silly.

It was upsetting, you know, so many people,

and you get to the point where you think it'll just get nastier.

It's got to be finished at some point.

And so, you know, that's your decision made.

I would have said she's got about 55% of everything.

It may slightly be in Peter's favour, I don't know.

Whatever it is, it is what it is.

But I've had to concede to some extent.

I wasn't expecting at my age

to be picking up a very substantial mortgage,

but the alternatives were awful.

Having to move house,

upsetting the children was not really an option for me.

If we were going to go through the legal process,

then we were both probably going to lose 30, 40, 50,000.

And it would be madness.

So we've got, hopefully, to the right deal now.

Sue is still planning to use the money from the settlement

to buy a property.

But for the foreseeable future, she'll be living with Bernard.

We can't say that in 30 years' time we're still going to be together,

which is hard.

But, no, you just enjoy what you've got

and hope it goes on as long as it possibly can,

so that's all you can do.

I don't want to live on my own.

Not sure I'm into the internet dating scene,

but inevitably that might loom.

I suppose you can get lucky.

You hope, you know.

I know for a fact he took everything.

-That's not true.

-I have got nothing that belongs to him in the house.

-And I know for a fact...

-That's your word against mine, isn't it?

And only one of us is telling the truth, so...

So, when we were happily married, what's yours is mine,

and what's mine was yours, but now we are unhappily married,

it's gone to what's yours is yours and what's mine is...

-Not totally.

-Yeah.

We were arguing. We couldn't stand the sight of each other, both ways.

But now I'm not like that.

Richie, please, you forget I know you.

I know you better than you know yourself.

# There's a new world comin'

# And it's just around the bend

# There's a new world comin'

# This one's comin' to an end

# Coming in love. #