Episode 3 Mr v Mrs: Call the Mediator

We met at work.

We just clicked. Something in us clicked.

He was nice-looking.

We just really loved each other.

Where did all that go so sadly wrong?

When people come to see us, their relationships are over.

They're in dispute about the most fundamental things in their lives.

All right, are we ready to go through?

This is Britain's hidden world of family mediation.

The house was going to be our financial security

for when we sold it and downsized later on in life.

He comes back, he spends time with the kids

and he disappears back to his new woman and I've had enough of it.

It's just pure bitterness and that's why she's doing it.

Why should I put up with somebody who's acting like that?

For a year, we follow the work of National Family Mediation

who try to help feuding couples to reach agreement.

Did I leave with any jewellery?

Did I leave with any jewellery? That's all I'm asking.

I'm asking you.

They need to find a compromise...

20,000's nothing.

I'm not just having that.

..to avoid a costly court battle.

Why can't you come to London?

Why should a two-year-old child have to travel?

-Are you able to stay in the room and continue this?

-Yeah, I am.

-I am.

She's going to sit there and make snidey remarks.

Oh, hi, there. It's Liz here calling from the Family Mediation Service.

Ah, yes, you left us a voicemail, I think.

Just returning your call.

OK, well, how can I help you?

Grab a seat.

Oh, thank you so much. Thank you.

-As soon as he comes, I'll come and get you, all right?

-OK. Thank you.

I left my husband about three years and two months ago.

I didn't actually tell him that I was leaving. I left him a note.

It just said, like, "I'm leaving you."

And, like, "I'm sorry but I can't do it any more."

All right.

Hiya. You OK?

Yeah, not too bad.

I actually woke up, found a note on the dining table.

She had said that, "I'm sorry it didn't work out."

And this is after 24 years, though.

I thought, "What hasn't worked out after 24 years?"

I thought we were good.

So this sort of came as a surprise.

Shock.

There's a huge amount of traffic coming out here.

-There is.

-You must know.

-Which way did you come down? Did you come down the Hagley Road?

-Hagley Road.

Yeah.

When people come to see me in the middle of a divorce,

they're often having trouble deciding how to divide up

the assets they've been building up for years.

The law suggests a starting point for negotiation of a 50-50 split.

But, obviously, not everything can be split in half.

Parvez and Robina's marriage was arranged by their families.

Since she left him, they've divorced but they still haven't worked out

which family assets Robina should have.

So, Robina, what would you like out of mediation?

Just to settle the house

and whatever else needs settling basically.

All right.

Parvez, what would you like out of mediation?

Well, a settlement, I suppose.

Try to avoid costly court...

..case and...

see if we can walk away without having to

-spend too much money.

-OK.

-So, we've got a house and jewellery...

-Yeah.

-..that we've got to talk about.

-Basically, that's it.

I seen him at his sister-in-law's house.

She said that they were looking for somebody to get their son married to.

We did talk and I said, "Yeah, OK, I'll get married to you."

-INTERVIEWER:

-So it's not sounding like a wild romance story.

No, it wasn't a romance story.

SHE CHUCKLES

He was nice-looking though.

I thought he was nice-looking.

But I didn't know him or anything.

Parvez and Robina married in 1987

and they went on to have three children who are now grown up.

I hadn't been happy for ages and ages.

He probably wasn't happy either.

I got a flat

and then brought my clothes and stuff a little bit at a time.

I didn't want him to notice that I was going to go.

It was a hard decision but I needed to get out of there.

I've cooked and cleaned and I've looked after them all.

So I am entitled to something at the end of the day.

I'm not just, like, a skivvy.

I'm getting a picture of what assets there are now...

..financial details, the house that you joint-own together.

Parvez, you're in the house at the moment.

If I can trouble you

to contact some local, reputable estate agents

and just ask three of them to pop round

and if they would kindly give you a valuation of the property. Is that OK?

She was a good mum.

She was a good wife.

She was a very good housewife.

Every marriage has ups and downs

but there was nothing in there that I thought was terrible.

Since Robina left him,

Parvez has continued to live in the family home

along with all three of their children.

She was very close to the children.

The children were very, very close to her

and when she left,

they were as shocked as me.

Very hurt, very angry about it.

What we were going to do was to leave the house

and all the assets and everything to the children.

I don't see why their inheritance should be taken away from them.

I would be prepared to pay her off, yeah.

How much?

Not quite certain about that.

I'm not sure about that but...

as little as possible hopefully.

MUSIC: Perfect Love by The Diplomats

# When we're together

-# Together

-I hear the bells ring

# When we're together

-# Together

-Oh, what a feeling it brings... #

We can't talk.

We just cannot talk.

It makes me so angry because he is thinking all about him.

He's not thinking about the kids and it just makes me so angry.

It does get heated sometimes.

I feel that I am dictated to a lot where

I can and can't have the children.

When a couple have an acrimonious break-up,

agreeing plans for the children can become incredibly difficult.

As a mediator, my job is to try and help people find a way

to move forward and leave old arguments behind.

Matt and Jess were divorced two months ago

after a ten-year marriage.

Right, are we ready to go through?

They have three children who all live with Jess.

They're here to try to resolve an ongoing dispute

about the children's overnight stays with Matt.

So, who wants to just tell me very quickly what's currently

happening that clearly isn't working quite so well?

At the very beginning, when we first separated,

we got into a routine where I had them on Monday afternoon

and evening, Thursday afternoon and evening

and then when it was my weekend to have the children, I'd have them

Friday night, Saturday night, take them home Sunday evening.

Two nights in the week and...

-Every other weekend.

-..alternate weekends.

-Yeah.

That was in place for a long time.

And then, Jessica then drops it on me that I'm not to have them

in the week any more.

Sorry, can I just say, can we call me Jess, not Jessica?

It really puts me off.

Jess then decided that I wasn't to have them in the week any more.

Firstly, a lot has changed in the last six months.

Our eldest is going to secondary school.

She starts in September.

So, routine is paramount to me.

So then this is leading on to other things as well.

Because at the moment, it's fine because you have your own...

your own bungalow but that's going to change as well

so he's moving in with his girlfriend where she'll, Katie,

who will be 12 in a couple of weeks, will have to share a room

with an eight-year-old and a seven-year-old.

And going to secondary school, she needs her own space.

That's a massive concern to me.

Like, massive.

I didn't do well at school.

And secondary school is so important.

Nowadays, if you don't do well in secondary school,

you're not going to get into college, uni...

Katie, she's so intelligent, she's in, like, the highest

of everything, and it's something that

she needs to just buckle down and do.

It's something that I just really believe in strongly.

It is only a few weeks before Matt plans

to move in with his new partner.

She already has two children living with her at home.

Five children in a three-bed house?

It's not practical. That is how I see it.

If they had a five-bed house or a six-bed house, then that

is totally different, but at the moment,

I can't put my kids through that.

So do you want to explain or talk to Jess

about some of those concerns that she's just raised?

Katie would share a room with an eight and a seven-year-old.

That is literally to sleep.

But we have got plans to have a separate study area.

I have got a bungalow I rent from my parents at the minute,

where the children have their bedrooms, but as time has gone on,

I will be moving out of there,

I will be moving in with my girlfriend.

I don't want to have two separate lives where

I do one thing with my new partner and her family,

and then a totally separate thing with our children.

Which is, in my opinion, ludicrous.

As her mum, what I say goes, and routine is paramount.

You can't have the stance of what you say goes.

No, I know that, but I'm putting her best interests at heart, Matt.

-Are you?

-Yes, of course I am!

In addition to their home,

Parvez and Robina have one other significant asset

they need to decide what to do with.

-I notice you give a value of family jewellery.

-Yeah.

-You say, was it, erm...?

-£10,000 for all the jewellery.

There is two pots of jewellery. I'm going to get my mind around it.

There is Robina's jewellery, it came with you when you got married...

-Yeah.

-..and...

-I think there was...

And basically, do you know the jewellery that his family

gave me when I got married as well? That.

So I am not quite sure what I am meant to do with that.

If I am meant to keep it or give it to him or whatever.

That jewellery was given to us for our marriage.

It is a form of security for us.

Correct me if I am wrong, but we have always thought that

if the children get married, we will transfer it to them.

-Yeah.

-Give it to them.

In our culture, jewellery and money is sort of financial security.

Nine times out of ten, it is not needed.

If it is not needed, we tend to pass it on to the children.

That is the done thing.

Custom, I suppose, rooted in traditional values.

And they are not just Asian values, let's face it.

As age creeps up, you get the sense that you don't need these things.

The next generation will benefit from them.

And that is where my thinking comes from.

One of the girls is looking at marriage.

And I have met the family, I am OK with the family.

Robina has said she can have the jewellery,

I don't know what jewellery she was talking about.

Yeah, but basically,

what I really want to do is keep a couple of pieces out of there,

because they're a bit sentimental,

because they are from my mum and that lot.

And then just give all the rest of it to them.

When my daughters found out I was leaving, they basically

made it clear to me that they didn't want to know me if I did leave.

I've not seen them for over three years.

At the end of the day, I'm their mum, and I miss my kids,

and I wish I could see them.

But I keep thinking to myself, as long as they are happy,

I should be happy, do you know what I mean?

Robina now lives alone in a rented one-bedroom flat,

ten miles away from her former home.

She left with around £5,000 of family savings

to start her new life.

And she is now working as a cleaner.

I only get paid the minimum wage, £6.50 an hour.

But at the moment, I am really struggling

and I'm in quite a bit of debts with my bills and stuff.

All I want is, like, my share of the house, basically.

A bit of security for myself, that is all I need.

So what we have agreed is the family jewellery,

Robina will say which items she wants.

You're thinking - nothing's cast in stone -

the rest will go to the children.

The house is the only other asset as such, yes?

Parvez is going to get three property valuations,

-is that all right?

-Yeah, yeah.

Have we boxed that off as well as we can for now?

-Yeah.

-I like to tick milestones that we've achieved.

Yeah, that's good, that's an achievement.

OK. Now, who would like to leave first? You'd like to leave first?

Five minutes later, I'll be asking Parvez to leave,

is that all right?

You're not going to be waiting downstairs

with a baseball bat, are you?

-MEDIATOR LAUGHS

-You sure?

My problem is, Jess, like you said earlier,

what you say goes, and...

No, it's not, that is why we are here. Sorry.

Jess, just let Matt finish, please.

If your idea is X, and my idea is Y, the conversation ends

because X is happening.

You are their mother and that is it, final, end of, end of story.

Do you want to respond to that?

That might have been how I was, Matt,

because I was angry and seeing things from different perspectives.

A year and a half down the line, I have sat here with you today

so we can both figure this out.

And I can take into consideration what you want, what I want,

but most importantly, the kids.

That was how it was, Matt, things have totally changed now.

Trust me, Matt, I don't want to be here sat next to you,

but I am here for the kids.

I think that was an important message to deliver, Jess.

And probably one you haven't heard before.

-No.

-And so I would ask you to take that on board, Matt,

because you're both here because you love your children,

and you want what is best for them.

Do you need to have a break, Jess?

Are you sure?

-INTERVIEWER:

-Who is the person he's living with now?

Erm, Amy, which was my best friend.

-There you go.

-Thank you.

MUSIC: Let's Face The Music And Dance by Frank Sinatra

# There may be trouble ahead

# But while there's moonlight and music and love and romance

# Let's face the music and dance... #

PHONE RINGS

Hello, Family Mediation?

OK, thank you very much. Thank you, bye-bye.

Just, erm, take a seat, will you, Catia? We'll be a minute.

He broke up with me.

He just said, "I don't love you any more",

he just moved to his mum's house.

Of course, me as a mum, I want the best for the daughter.

My only option is going back to Portugal.

Catia told me outright, "I intend to leave the country with Susie."

To which, my reaction was quite angry.

"No, you're not. You're not going anywhere."

'Mediation is usually about compromise.

'But when we're talking about children relocating

'to another country with a parent, there isn't a compromise.

'Either they go or they don't.'

If you are ready, we can go through.

Catia and Ben split up two years ago.

They have come to try to resolve their disagreement

over the new life that Catia is planning

for their three-year-old daughter Susie.

So this is about you and Susie.

You're proposing to leave London and to go to Portugal

-and live there.

-Yep.

And you are aware that that is going to be quite disruptive,

I suppose, for the contact between...

Yeah, I do think about that, but at the same time, it is

-about how the situation is at the moment living in England.

-Yeah.

Like some... How do you call it? I don't have, like, money to live.

We met when I was 19.

It wasn't, like, love at first sight.

But he was responsible, he wanted children,

he wanted to be a good dad.

All of those things were very important for me.

I would say we had a nice, good, normal relationship.

-Thank you.

-Catia and Ben's daughter Susie was born in 2012.

Since they separated, Catia has been working full-time

in a nursery and receiving maintenance payments from Ben.

This has to pay for childcare as well as the rent for their flat.

I basically pay 1,200 a month for a two-bedroom

then I have the bills on top of that.

It's a lot of money.

Is it nice, Susie? Yes?

'The money is running out.

'If I carry on like this, I will be in debt.'

It just doesn't work in London.

It is just impossible.

I do want to let him see that there is actually options

where children can still have contact.

You have my contact of Skype.

You know she's only interested in that for two minutes

and then that is it - attention span gone.

And then we have holidays and weekend breaks.

So obviously Portugal is not 12 hours away,

it is only two hours away from here.

There are very cheap tickets, I was thinking about, like,

Christmas-time and birthdays,

kind of alternate, one year going to be me,

one year going to be Ben, so it can be kind of fair.

We met at the place we were both working.

I saw her during my induction. I was like, "Hello!

"How are you? I would like to get to know you."

And we were very similar, like-minded people.

We both had a huge passion for our jobs, we just clicked.

Something in us clicked.

And then we were a couple by the summer, an official couple.

Like Catia, Ben also works with children in a nursery.

He met Catia six years ago,

when they started a new job at the same time.

-INTERVIEWER:

-Were you in love with her?

Of course I was.

I wouldn't make a child with someone I wasn't in love with

and didn't think we were going to be together forever.

But no-one ever tells you what the initial six months

afterwards are going to be. It just wasn't working.

We were arguing in front of Susie when she was just three months old.

Perhaps it just wasn't meant to be.

Can you give us an idea of what sort of role you would see yourself

playing in the circumstances that Catia would like?

I see myself being nothing really. I don't see...

So that is your worry?

I don't see any positive aspect of me

and Susie bonding, being father and daughter,

having a positive impact on her life - I don't see it, I cannot see it.

Good afternoon, Debbie speaking, how can I help you?

So have you considered mediation at all?

It's Jess and Matt's second meeting,

and Matt is about to move out of his rented bungalow.

They are still in dispute about whether their children

can stay overnight at the home of Matt's new partner, Amy.

I have known her ever since we were married,

so about 12, 13 years.

We went to Dubai, we went on girlie breaks. We were really close.

Really close.

Not so much now.

Come through, Jess, have a seat.

This morning, reaching an agreement has become even more urgent.

I'm going away tomorrow night.

At the moment, I don't know who is having my children.

-Are you saying you don't know who is having the children?

-Mm.

Nor do I, I have no idea.

I texted you months ago saying,

"I'm going away, are you able to have the kids?"

-You have never got back to me.

-But I can't...

-It's your weekend.

-If I am working...

Well, obviously, then I will have them over the weekend, obviously.

-OK.

-It is my weekend to have them, that surely goes without saying.

-But we need to talk about the Sunday night.

-Why?

-Because obviously they would need to be at the bungalow.

-Why?

So they can have their own room, they will be at the bungalow.

I'm sorry, but...

Well, then I will arrange something else then, it's fine.

They've even text you themselves to say, "When Mummy's away..."

Yeah, I wonder why(!)

-What do you mean?

-Monday...

-Matt.

They text you saying...

-If the shifts change...

-Can I talk?!

-..I can have them on the Monday.

They text you to say can they stay with you at the bungalow.

-They don't like going round there all the time.

-Oh, please, just...

My point of view, to move forward,

a massive point I'm going to bring up,

it's all a personal vendetta to get to me.

-Matt...

-So we are touching on it now,

but I'm not asking you to respond to it now.

Just hold that, please.

She says she's doing it for the children, but I think it is more to

get to me and hurt me more, rather than what is best for the children.

I think there is a lot of resentment or blame, I don't know.

But it is because they are old friends.

-You can't punish me...

-I'm not punishing you!

Because it is a personal vendetta.

-No, I don't...

-I will stick by that. It is a personal vendetta.

I don't care what you do!

-I want to stop...

-You need to get past that.

-No, YOU do. You do.

-I'm going to stop you both.

You are saying that you are in debt even though

you are working full-time.

Yeah, that is what is happening at the moment.

Me moving home to Portugal means I have a house, three-bedroom,

I don't need to pay rent, I don't need to worry about the house,

and I do have an offer for a job as well, which is in my area,

nursery nurse, and I do have family and friend support.

And of course, I just want to live a better life.

Can I ask you a question? You say a better life.

You have not lived there since you were 13 years old,

-how old are you now?

-I have been here 15 years.

You haven't lived there full-time since you were 13 years old,

-so how old are you now?

-15, thank you, I came here when I was 15.

-You were 13 when you came here.

-No, 15.

-OK, how old are you now?

You know better than me(!)

In Portugal, we have a lot more summer.

It is nice weather, which makes a difference.

Lots of different beaches as well. Susie absolutely loves it.

Susie can't imagine.

She is like, "Wow", and she just runs to the water.

Playing with the waves, playing with the sand.

So it is a nice, good lifestyle to actually have, you know,

all of this around.

I have a house for free, no bills, my dad is there,

all the friends, I have all the support.

So obviously, I will be better off there.

I'm quite upset they can't really see my real intentions,

which is not being mean, and is not about separating Susie from Ben,

but actually giving a better life.

Are there any circumstances, Catia, in which you could stay?

What would enable you to stay?

I cannot see any better option than going back to Portugal.

There are options that benefit everybody here.

You haven't explored them.

I have offered you opportunities so many times.

-For example, her coming to live with me.

-Mmm...

But every time I have offered you,

all you have done is screamed in my face, saying, "It is not good."

Because it is not enough.

I don't believe she would be better with her mum then me.

I don't believe that one little bit.

I work with children between the ages of three months and five years.

It is something I do on a day-to-day basis, educating children,

not just ABC, 123, I'm teaching them life skills.

All of this stuff, I am able to do it all.

Ben only has a one-bedroom flat, but Susie has her own room

at his parents, a five-minute walk around the corner.

And his mum has offered to help with childcare.

My mum, her nana is like a second mother to her.

Susie absolutely adores her nana,

and she's the daughter my mother never had. She loves her to bits.

I have offered so many times, I said to her,

"Catia, why don't you let Susie come and live with me and my mum?"

Which takes bills off, and then you can perhaps stay and downsize,

cos she's complained about bills, about the rent and money.

But Catia is hellbent on her idea of going home.

How about contact with her mum?

Well, if she's here, she can have her every weekend.

I'm not going to be here. That's the issue here.

It's either with you, or with me.

OK, all right, then if you're away in Portugal,

then I'll pay for the flights out for her to come out

to see you every other weekend or whatever.

She can have the entire summer with you.

Then she comes here when...

So you don't think it's better for her to actually live

that nice, relaxed life on a daily basis?

You think she benefits more just having it every now and again?

I believe it's better to not uproot her from everything she knows.

I'm not asking you to make decisions now.

It's about going away and thinking about it.

For both of you.

I didn't create Susie's life for no reason.

If she goes, it will completely destroy us.

Destroy me.

He's scared that he won't see Susie and Susie will forget Daddy,

but I don't think he should be afraid of that at all,

cos that's not what's going to happen.

I just want him to give me a chance.

It's a very difficult decision to have to make either way.

Robina is returning for a second meeting with Parvez

to discuss how to divide the family home.

She's been reflecting on her decision to give up

thousands of pounds' worth of wedding jewellery

that the couple keep in a bank vault.

I decided that with the jewellery that I got from my mum

and his parents,

I feel like that's a present for me

and nobody's got a right to tell me who I should give it to,

cos at the end of the day, it should be my choice.

I've changed my mind. I've decided, you know the jewellery?

It's all mine and it's up to me what I want to do with it.

We agreed to give it to the kids.

Well, I'm not with you any more

and if I've got a bad time...

It doesn't matter whether you're with me or not.

This is something that I'm not interested in.

Either come to meetings and make agreements and stick by them,

or...

-leave it.

-I thought you had to give it.

-No, you didn't.

-But you don't have to, because it's my jewellery.

Stick to something, so that I've got something to work with.

I'm not the kind of person that likes materialistic things,

to be honest.

I'd rather have somebody in my life that loved me and cherished me

and same, vice versa.

This flat's, like, all me.

What I want my life to be is, like, love and happiness!

With my place, I can just decorate it the way I want.

I haven't got anybody telling me, "You can't put that up there."

It wasn't like that when we were married,

cos my husband wouldn't have them.

Why shouldn't I have a bit of happiness in my life?

I need to do what's best for me.

I've read the financial statement Robina wrote

and she wants me to sell the house

-and split the proceeds.

-I don't want you to sell...

-Yeah.

-I don't want to sell it, cos I did say to you...

I'm just saying that's what it says.

I don't want to sell the house. I'm not saying that.

I'm just saying you're in the house -

if you want to sell the house and give me my share,

that's fine, but it's up to him what he wants to do,

cos he's in the house.

The family home is Parvez and Robina's most valuable asset.

If they sold it today, they would have around £80,000 to divide.

I think what she wants is half the money.

It would mean moving from this house.

It would mean me having to go and find somewhere to rent...

..or buy another property

that would meet my needs, because of my disability.

These are our plans

for the extension. Living space now

to be converted into a downstairs bedroom with a ramp

to give me wheelchair access. That is something I won't be able to do

if I sold the house.

And another thing I think

she's not taking into account is what would happen to the children.

What do you think I should be going for?

What do you think I should be looking for?

I don't think you should back off,

cos you've had to raise us for the last three years

and if it wasn't for you,

we wouldn't have got through our studies or anything.

And she'd be more than happy just to take the house

and have us live on the street.

It all comes down to money

and that's how families break.

I actually looked forward to growing old together.

That's what I envisaged.

Should you not be looking at you and me growing old together,

having grandchildren together,

your nest egg?

You can have whatever you want. Just get back together and reconciliate.

Well, I told you I didn't want to come back.

# Tonight you're mine, completely

# You give your love so sweetly

# Tonight, the light of love is in your eyes

# But will you love me tomorrow? #

40 minutes into their meeting,

Matt and Jess still haven't agreed where their children will stay

whilst Jess is away on holiday.

I do not sit comfortably with being dictated to

where I choose to spend the evening with my children.

OK.

That's because you're thinking about you and not the children.

No, I'm not thinking about me.

I don't see why...

I have to...

explain and...

provide evidence of what I'm doing with my life with my children.

I don't understand it. I don't ask it from you.

-OK.

-Why do I have to provide this?

It's because, like I said earlier,

it's all a personal vendetta against me and Amy.

That's not how it is!

You don't know how I'm feeling,

-because all you are thinking about is yourself!

-No, it's not!

Matt, all I'm interested in,

-it's the kids.

-I am interested in the kids.

A year ago, Matt, I was in a totally different place.

I'm in such a better place now

and all I want is what's best for the kids.

-So do I.

-And you keep thinking about yourself.

How? Tell me how, explain how.

Because you're not thinking about the kids.

-Explain how.

-I can't do it.

-OK.

-Explain how, Jess.

-Can I take a minute?

-Take a break.

I don't see how she can sit there and say I'm only thinking of myself.

I don't understand it.

I'm not going to talk to you while Jess isn't here.

Yeah, I know, it's fine.

'I can't tell you how angry it makes me.'

He's not putting their needs first

and I'm not stopping him seeing them, that's the thing.

If you ask so many other families that go through it,

some dads don't even see their kids.

I saw my dad once every other Saturday when I was growing up.

And I won't be bullied into anything now.

No. Been there, done that. Not going to be a doormat any more.

-Do you want longer?

-No, I'm all right.

-Are you sure?

No? OK.

OK, so I'm just going to stop you

and I'm going to just talk to you about what I'm observing.

So...

it's not unusual when relationships end

that it can take a person actually 18 months to two years

to get to a level

and sometimes there is one person that is ahead of the other person

in terms of the ending of the relationship

and so for Jess, two years down the line,

Jess is saying, "It's hard but I'm ready,

"I'm in a different place, I'm a different person."

-Can I say it was the other way round at the beginning, though?

-OK.

-I didn't end the relationship.

-OK.

It wasn't actually me that ended the relationship.

It was Jess that ended the relationship and it was, erm...

very similar times when Jess got with her new boyfriend

and I got together with Amy.

I think it's purely because of who I'm with now.

-It was the reverse?

-Complete reverse.

OK. But... OK.

Even so, it's taken Jess longer to get to a point

where things can settle.

Your reality is, the way you are now will send you both crazy

if you continue to do it.

Whatever is underlying any of this,

you both need to shift.

Ben is returning for a second mediation meeting with Catia.

They need to come to a decision about whether Catia will move

to Portugal with their daughter Susie.

Come here.

-She's ready for the toilet.

-Bye-bye, Daddy.

-See you later.

I need to tell Ben the pressure is on.

I have no money for the rent any more.

Of course, no salary as well, as I gave up the job.

I have no time to be waiting and to be around

for another two-three months, one year, whatever.

Just, I have to do something.

One of our main aims in family mediation is to try to help people

avoid the stress of ending up in a court hearing.

We can sort things out far more quickly and amicably here,

providing people are able to agree.

All you've said to me is, "We need to hurry up, so I can go,"

so I don't even understand why we're here, in a way,

because you're not even thinking

-about the possibility of staying, are you?

-No.

-I'll be honest, no.

-No.

I'm not.

It's not possible, it's not better for anyone,

and I want the best, of course, as a mum, for my children.

With time, you're going to see that it doesn't affect your relationship

with your daughter, cos it won't.

-It will!

-No, it won't.

There are lots of relationships like this.

There are situations like this all over the world.

That's not me and Susie.

You'll still have a relationship with Susie.

Susie will call you, you will see her on Skype

-and you're going to see each other on holidays.

-So...

It's going to be always a relationship there.

Not good enough.

Well, I'm more concerned about, really, Susie's wellbeing

and it's not in this country, I'm sorry.

I can't stop her from going, in the long run.

I have been told from a solicitor that if we went to court,

the court would be very unlikely to split Catia and Susie up.

I believe the court would just say, "OK, you can go," anyway.

If Ben and Catia can agree arrangements for Susie in mediation,

a solicitor will be able to help them make these legally binding.

If Catia does go,

then the next step is to get the best possible agreement.

Any other questions?

Well, I want the question,

"Does he want to make an agreement between me like this

-"or in the courts?"

-So under what circumstances

would you feel comfortable about agreeing to this move?

-I'll never be comfortable agreeing.

-No.

Never. You're signing my whole life away,

but if there are guarantees put in place,

then I might be able to agree to it.

So, Wednesday, Thursday - what can you do?

What's this, sorry?

Right, OK. What, am I having them overnight or what?

Yeah, it will be at the bungalow.

See, this is what I'm saying. "It WILL be at the bungalow."

For so long, I've been told what is happening with my children.

-And I don't agree with it.

-Mm.

-Um...

And I just...

The whole thing is just wrong.

That...

I can say no to it all.

Can I be honest?

-In complete reality, I'm being completely honest.

-Mm, please do.

This will never, ever get sorted out.

-Five kids in a three-bed house!

-Because of this stance.

I'm doing you a favour by being here. I want this sorted!

You know, it's all fine, Jess getting emotional

and walking out of the room. Don't you think I'm emotional?

Don't you think, like, this is messing with me?

You need to get over the fact that I'm with someone, that I'm with Amy.

-I don't care who you are with.

-Right...

-You're talking at the same time again.

-Right.

Because... This is...

-Because I'm saying stuff that Jess doesn't like.

-No.

-It's reality.

It's reality, and this will not get sorted out

because you're not real, Jess.

You are going to have to do decide whether your reality is

that you are going to be able to agree this between yourselves,

in terms of the day-to-day arrangements, or not.

If you'd go to court and say to a judge,

"Here you are, judge, here are our kids,

"let's put the matter into your hands,"

you'll be told what's happening to your children,

you'll be told when you're seeing your children.

And off you'll have to toddle and do it.

So let's just go and summarise those guarantees that you want.

-So there's Skype.

-Yeah.

-How often?

-Yeah, every day if he wants.

-So daily Skype.

How about the actual visits?

He can go all the time.

Realistically, how much do you think that's going to cost you?

-A weekend will probably cost me all of £300.

-How much?

I can't see it being cheaper than that.

-No.

-SHE LAUGHS

OK. Whatever.

I did see breaks for, like, 120, with hotel included.

It's that cheap.

Um, so 120 to 300.

Holidays.

How often would you want to visit?

-As often as possible.

-Mm-hm.

So, realistically, what would you think?

It would probably be every other month.

This is what you would like.

I want more, but I'm not going to get it from her.

-So, if I write this up...

-Mm-hm.

..in a summary like this,

are you both agreed to go ahead and get legal advice?

Mm-hm.

So, basically, you take that to a solicitor

and then that agreement can be drawn up formally,

if you want it to be.

-OK?

-Thank you.

Um, Catia, if you'd like to come outside,

-I've just got a document I want you to sign.

-All right.

But Catia and Ben didn't go to the solicitors.

FIREWORKS WHISTLE AND BANG

Three days later, things had changed.

So, obviously, we had the mediation on the Monday

and then, on Thursday, I called Catia.

Instantly, when it started ringing,

I realised it was a foreign dial tone.

She picks up, and she acts like everything's normal.

I say, um, "So where is Susie?"

And she tells me,

"No, I've got to tell you something, but not right now."

I said, "Are you in Portugal? Where is my daughter?"

She said, "Well, I didn't want to tell you this today

"but, yes, we moved yesterday."

Which would have been the Wednesday.

It was...such a shock.

For me, there's only one route to go now.

It's the formal route. There is no working with her, clearly.

From where I stand, she doesn't want to work with anyone.

She wants everything her way.

And now it's not happening, it's going to be done properly.

FIREWORKS BANG AND POP

# Just the two of us

# We can make it if we try

# Just the two of us

# Just the two of us

# Just the two of us

# Building castles in the sky

# Just the two of us

# You and I... #

It's six weeks since Parvez and Robina first started mediation.

Hello, guys. I do apologise. Sorry to keep you waiting.

-Hiya.

-Hi.

-That's all right.

They still haven't reached agreement on either the house

or the family jewellery.

On the jewellery, have you got any photographs of them at all?

-I made a list two weeks ago.

-OK.

-What's not on there is a set of diamonds.

-Yeah?

-And I think those need to be added on.

-Whose are those?

-They're mine.

-They were actually bought...

For me, as a gift.

They were bought for Farah to wear.

They were not. Stop telling lies.

They were bought as a present for me. He's telling lies.

Robina, that's a lie, that is.

Basically, the diamonds, he bought for me

when it was my nephew's wedding. He bought it for me.

It would be very nice if we can push things forward.

I don't want to keep burning up your money.

So, Parvez, what are you proposing?

My proposal is, keep all of the jewellery.

Yes?

Keep all the money that she took.

There are two items that the girls wanted.

But she can have the rest.

-Keep it all.

-But the things...

-Hear me out, please.

-My other part of the proposal...

-Yeah?

..is put the house into our children's name.

I don't want anything out of this.

Give it to the children,

-cos that's where it's going to go at the end of the day, anyway.

-OK.

So, that's my proposal.

Transfer the house to the children, keep all the jewellery, walk away.

'I want what I've earned to go to my children.'

I'm not sure Robina quite wants that.

I don't know what she wants.

In reality, I don't.

If you don't agree to come to a resolution here, go to court.

It's going to cost at least 10,000.

And I'm not kidding you.

And that's probably my estimation on the lower side.

And this is free advice.

Think about it.

Don't let other people influence you on that.

This is for you, this is your life.

No-one's pushing me into anything.

I've got a mind of my own.

I can decide what I want.

We were brought up, like, you worry about what the community says

and everything, and you're not meant to do stuff like that.

That's the way we were brought up.

But when you sit and think about it, you think to yourself, "Well...

"you can't be unhappy just because of the community."

You have to be happy yourself, and you have to do what you want to do.

Basically, they can have their jewellery

if he gives me, like, my share of the house money.

He doesn't want to pay me off the house, basically.

I want my money, I'm not just having that.

You've got more than me.

I haven't. Where have I got more than you? Tell me where.

OK, we'll just go to court.

-I'd rather go to court and get it settled.

-Right.

It will cost you whatever it costs you. I don't mind.

It doesn't matter. That's nothing. You getting more than me.

-What am I getting, Robina?

-The house.

The house isn't mine. I'm saying to you, give to the children.

-It doesn't matter, at the end of the day.

-Why?

You're getting more than me.

Why doesn't it matter? How am I getting that at all?

You get a building, you get the house. You get more than me.

I want you to have a think.

When passions have cooled,

if I may suggest that you give me a ring next week.

Wise counsel may prevail, and people may want to come back

to see if we can get anywhere. Is that OK?

So I'm asking, we cool down for a week, and we speak to...

-Both give me a ring a week today. Is that fair?

-That's fine.

-That's all right.

-Is that all right with you?

-I'm prepared to go along with that.

-Thanks so much.

-Your cane is just behind you, sir.

-OK.

CLOCK TICKS

-DAVE:

-Nothing makes me happier than to send people off

with a handshaken agreement,

and we achieve this in about three quarters of cases.

But the fact is, not everyone is ready to reach that final agreement.

And that's the important thing about mediation -

it's always the couple that decide what to do in the end.

Matt and Jess agreed to return to mediation

to continue the discussion

about where their children should spend weeknights.

No point me throwing in the towel now.

You have to try. Um...

And take it from there, see how it goes. Um...

We'll just have to wait and see, really.

I don't know. I really don't know where to go from here.

We'll come back in another two weeks.

And then...

And I can see that happening all over again.

So, I don't know.

Feel a bit lost.

Come on.

A week later, Jess cancelled the planned meeting,

and they have not returned.

Parvez left mediation prepared to continue negotiations with Robina.

I'm inclined to say that she said, in anger,

"I'll see you in court"

I'm really not sure about her at all.

I used to know her,

but not any more.

He kept saying, "The house is not yours, and it's not mine.

"It's the kids', it's their inheritance."

But I'm still alive, I'm not dead.

A percentage of that house belongs to me,

so I think I should get a percentage of the money.

Robina decided she would take her dispute with Parvez to court.

They are waiting for a judge

to decide what should happen to their house.

Since Catia left for Portugal,

Ben has been able to get back in touch with Susie.

I am flying out on the 2nd of July to go and see her.

I'm actually going to pick her up.

I'm very, very excited, as you can probably imagine.

Susie's coming for three whole weeks.

She wants to go swimming, she wants to go to London Zoo.

Yeah, just do all the things that we would do as if she was always here.

I want it to be as if she'd never left.

Yeah, so I had to leave London very suddenly,

because I already missed one month of rent,

and me and Susie, we were over-pressured.

And for me to not go through the eviction

and the problems with it afterwards,

I preferred to risk it back in Portugal

and go back to my family, where I have a safe house.

I went to the court straight away, so I could make the...

You know, an agreement between me and Ben,

so he could have his rights, as well as mine.

The legal agreement that Ben and Catia reached

guarantees that Susie will spend

at least seven weeks every year living with Ben,

and he can visit her regularly in Portugal.

The process of the mediation just allowed me to think a bit more

about what would be the best for Susie.

The agreement I've actually managed to get,

it's much more than I expected, yeah. I never thought...

Well, the moment she left, I thought I was never going to see her again,

let alone be guaranteed this time every year that Catia can't stop.

We have an agreement, everything is sorted.

And Ben can see Susie, Susie can see Ben.

And I think everybody's happy now.

We've always been civil when it comes to Susie.

We are communicating by e-mail or Skype.

But it does become, sometimes, very much,

"Well, this is what it said in back and white.

"If we don't stick to it, someone's going to get in trouble."

-# There are always two sides

-Two sides, two sides, two sides

-# To every story, yeah

-Two sides, two sides, two sides

# But two wrongs

# Can't make it right

# Oh-oh-ho

# And two mistakes will only bring you heartache

# And you both will end up

# Losing the fight... #