Episode 5 Building Dream Homes


Episode 5

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Across the nation, architects are building,

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designing and transforming our homes.

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One day I'm going to live in a house like this and not just do it for others.

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We're following some of those leading the way in ground-breaking design.

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Their jaw would drop if they saw that.

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I can't believe it.

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We'll be with them every step of the way as they battle with

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builders, blueprints and the clients who hire them.

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You've got a very strange understanding of the word "today".

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Whoa, whoa, whoa!

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-That's not good.

-It's like working with the Chuckle Brothers.

-Ho, ho, ho!

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We're with them as they draw on their seven years of training to solve everyday problems.

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Quick word in his ear, make sure there's no more mishaps.

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He's come in on an angle and ripped up the road,

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but he's now ripped his exhaust pipe off.

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Oh, man!

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I've said many prayers.

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That's amazing!

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That's a pretty incredible difference, isn't it?

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The fixings alone cost 17 grand.

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All in the name of making the properties we dream of a reality.

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In Britain, self-builders spend £3.2 billion each year

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building new homes.

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Today, we see two architects getting to grips with ambitious projects.

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In the New Forest, architect Wendy takes on a challenging house build.

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I suppose for the clients it's a bit akin to living in a goldfish bowl

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in a way because their house is on such public view.

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But things don't go according to plan.

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A few changes that we've made, if I'm honest,

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I am a bit disappointed with.

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And in Wales, the end is in sight for Marianne

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and Jon's amazing upside-down house.

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It's starting to feel like a building

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heading towards completion, James.

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But Chris and James are feeling the pressure.

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Well, we're trying to prevent, I guess, a death by 1,000 cuts.

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You know, something not quite right here,

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something not quite right there, all add up to be a bit of a mess.

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Spinners is a peaceful woodland garden in the New Forest.

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Set in two and a half acres, it is open to the public

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six months a year.

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Andy and Vicky Roberts fell in love with this

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Royal Horticultural Society-listed garden

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after visiting it for many years.

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In fact they were so smitten with the place that when the former owner

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decided to sell five years ago, this green-fingered pair snapped it up.

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Having visited the garden for many years,

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and to have an opportunity like this, to make it your own

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and to build a home here, is just a dream.

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The garden came with a dilapidated old bungalow.

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We realised that there was no insulation,

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the wiring was not up to scratch, there was no foundations.

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Rewire, re-plumb, re-roof...

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..it's more expensive than actually rebuild.

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So the couple have decided to raze it to the ground

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and replace it with a brand-new four-bedroom house that will blend

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perfectly into the gardens they love.

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The architect they've chosen to design their new home is

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Wendy Perring.

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And in this building there are quite a lot of different factors because

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it's located down a steep hill and, critically, it's open to the public.

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I suppose for the clients it's a bit akin to living in a goldfish bowl,

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in a way, because their house is on such public view,

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so that was something they were quite keen when they came to see us

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that we tried to get a little bit of privacy in there whilst at

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the same time the house seemed to be sort of part growing from the site.

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This looks at the different heights...

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..and you can see the two different wings really very clearly here.

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This is the master bedroom which will have the amazing view

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out over the valley.

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The garden is set in a national park

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where strict planning rules apply.

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Only four new builds are permitted in the New Forest each year.

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They must take the place of an existing dwelling

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and have a footprint no bigger than the original.

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I think the thing that excites me most

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about this building is that it is quite humble.

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It's quite simple - it's not a grand, showy architectural gesture.

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At least I hope it won't be because if it is we've got something wrong.

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The site is a very beautiful, natural and tranquil place

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and it would be entirely the wrong thing if the architecture took over.

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The whole build is scheduled to take 12 months,

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but there's another deadline - the gardens close

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to the public on the 1st of October and reopen on the 1st of April.

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They want to get the outside completely finished before then

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and that gives them exactly six months.

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April 1st - April Fools' Day - the garden opens again.

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I think it will be nice as the visitors are welcomed back into

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the garden that the house even if it's not finished on the inside that...

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sort of from the outside it looks, you know, more or less complete.

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In order to keep the build as speedy as possible,

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Wendy has designed a pre-fabricated timber-frame house.

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Once the concrete foundations are down,

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the house, which has been made off-site, goes up quickly.

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Building the timber frame way is a lot quicker than doing

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a traditional build.

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It's like a jigsaw puzzle. It will just go together.

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What a fashion statement they make.

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Vicky and Andy have come to site to check on progress.

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Just entering the house for the first time.

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That's our front door.

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Line of wardrobes come across here, built-in.

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So there'll be a bed there...

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..big view,

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big windows looking out over the Lymington valley.

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So it's going to be a rather nice little wing this one.

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Thank you very much for that.

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I said, "This is going to be the window," and here it is!

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I'm staggered by how quick this is.

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Presumably it's one of those things where when the last piece goes in

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you know if it's all all right.

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The timber frame goes up fast.

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But Vicky and Andy aren't seeing eye-to-eye with Wendy on

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some aspects of the design

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and have been making adjustments along the way.

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The old discussion we had was the window there,

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whether with the big window that was necessary,

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but the architects were very firm that that's wonderful.

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But they said it would be wonderful to have the

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window from the other end of the corridor,

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and I said, "You haven't got a dog! Because that door's going to

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"be closed to stop the dog taking up residence in the guest bedroom!"

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Architects have the idea and the ideals,

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and we have the practicality of, "No, you haven't lived with a Border collie!"

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And it's not just the window they've changed.

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They've also decided to get rid of one of the mezzanines

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Wendy wanted in a bedroom, and put flooring over the

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double-height space that would have opened up the stairs.

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It's not going to be a show house - it's going to be a home

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first and foremost so if we don't get it quite right,

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too bad, it's our home.

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It's going to have wet muddy footprints in it

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and that's from the dog, beside myself.

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Architect Wendy has had to take her clients' wishes on board.

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A few changes that we've made, if I'm honest,

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I'm a bit disappointed with but at the end of the day

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it's NOT my house, it's Andy and Vicky's house.

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A few compromises have been made.

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Ideally, they wouldn't have been made but, you know, that's building

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and that's life and I just have to get over it.

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Three weeks later, although the outer shell has progressed fast,

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a change in the schedule of works and a terrible month of

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high wind and rain mean hitting the April deadline for the exterior

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is starting to look practically impossible.

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I'm terribly frustrated that we're going to finish the shell now

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after we've opened the gardens so it's really things like the

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bricks and the tiles which are presently parked outside.

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They should be within the compound and give us our parking spaces back.

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Erm, it's nobody's fault.

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It would be boring if it was easy, wouldn't it?

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In Wales, architect Chris Loyn and project designer James Stroud

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have spent the past 11 months overseeing the construction of

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the hi tech upside-down house they designed for Jon and Marianne Cowpe.

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Oh, yeah!

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They have a budget of £842,000 to work with.

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At the beginning, Marianne was the driving force behind the build.

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I'm telling you what I want.

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You tell me what I need to achieve what I want and how much it costs.

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But six months in she was struck down with a life-threatening infection,

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keeping her off the project for four long months.

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But the build carried on without her, and not without its dramas.

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-Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa!

-Go forward, go forward, go forward.

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Very tense. It sounded like there was some cracking noises!

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Today, 11 months into the build,

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Chris and James are visiting the site together.

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Oh, James, look at that!

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That's beautiful, mate.

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One of the last jobs they need to do is inspect

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the building for any snags.

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Inside, the final fixes are being applied,

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the walls and floors have been boarded out giving a real feel of

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just how the spaces will work when clients Jon and Marianne move in.

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These are all in...

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That's nice, James. Look at the amount of light coming in...

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-Yep.

-..on a day like today.

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Yep. What a difference.

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It's starting to feel like a building heading towards

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completion, James...isn't it?

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Architect Chris was integral to the original plans.

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It's interesting when you reach this stage because you've held

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it in your head as a concept and a design, and the client takes

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it over and they start fitting in their bits and pieces which is

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fine because...it's their house but it's a very strange feeling.

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For the contractors, who have been working long hours to try to

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get the build completed, James and Chris's

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determination for perfection can sometimes be a little testing.

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So, is that distance equal to that distance?

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Ideally I wanted that blue line to be in the centre of that window.

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That shaving socket is in the wrong place.

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You know...it can't be, it looks terrible there.

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That's ideal for sitting down and then

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when you put it the other side it's ideal for standing up.

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It's whichever you want, really.

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Well, you want it halfway, don't you?

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CHUCKLES

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So this... We can drill a hole, a 25ml hole,

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-through the joist for the pipe?

-I think you probably can.

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Right, I think it needs to be as centre as it can,

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so if you can do something where you can drill...

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Drill through there?

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And the only thing is I'll just clarify it with the structural engineer,

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I suppose, just to make sure you can drill a 25ml hole.

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For James, a little friction with the builders is a cross

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he's willing to bear.

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If I wasn't coming here and asking for these bits and bobs,

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I don't think the building would be as good, personally.

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But also, you know, you can't help therefore having

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a reputation for being a pain in the backside, I suppose,

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because we are coming at them and we're pulling them, asking,

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we're continually driving and saying, "Can you do this, can you do that?"

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But with Chris and James picking up on every small detail

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and the build already running two months behind its original schedule,

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it's all wearing a bit thin for Marianne.

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Originally it was meant to ready on the 19th of March, then it moved

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to April, then it moved to May so I think we're on the fourth date now.

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They'd given us the date of three weeks' time for the house

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to be finished and about five weeks for the ground works to be finished.

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I'm trying to arrange removals and everything, and the date can't...

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I feel, that the date can't keep being a moveable feast, you know?

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Award-winning architect Wendy Perring is currently working

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on the design of a new build for Vicky and Andy in the New Forest.

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Another ongoing project of Wendy's is the conversion of

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two barns built in 1840 on a farm in Lymington.

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This is Warborne Organic Farm

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and we've been working here as a studio for about five years now.

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We were brought in by George Cathcart, the owner,

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to look at the barns which were slowly falling apart to see

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if there was any possibility that we could get planning permission

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to convert them into holiday accommodation.

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After five months working with the planners

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and conservation officer, permission was finally granted.

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So these are the arches and what we've done here is we've kept

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the new back from the old so that you can read the old brickwork

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and, you know, there was the temptation to fill it in

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and make it perfect but that wouldn't have been right.

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It would have led to something that felt quite sterile

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so, you know, you can, you know, it's beautiful.

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It's really tactile.

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Both of the completed holiday homes have two bedrooms,

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two bathrooms and an open-plan living area.

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We worked very hard to try

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and retain the feeling of what the barn would have been like.

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We felt it was very,

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very important to be able to read the existing building.

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We think in doing so it makes this feel much more spacious than

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it actually is and you come in here and you go, "Wow!"

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OK, this is my favourite bit...

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So up here you can probably fit,

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you can fit four children, and there are little mattresses and there's

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the peep hole through and you can see right down into the living space.

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You can throw paper aeroplanes at Mum and Dad

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while they're having a glass of wine.

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Wendy and her team have worked hard on the barn conversions to

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ensure they make the most of their setting.

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At Spinners we're trying to do very similar things that we have

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done at Warborne so we're trying to lead the eye beyond the building

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and out to the landscape.

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Back at Vicky and Andy's house build in the New Forest,

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things are running behind schedule.

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Their horticultural garden is due to open to the public on April 1st.

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Their aim is to have the outer shell of their new house finished

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so as to avoid disruption to the garden's many visitors.

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The next stage will transform the look of the house.

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The plan is to cover the timber frame with tiles and brick.

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Wendy has taken inspiration from Beaulieu, the local brickworks.

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Opened in the late 18th century, bricks were hand crafted

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here for the local area until the works closed in the 1980s.

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The different bricks came from the different clays

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that are available locally.

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There's a very yellow, straw-coloured clay and a red clay,

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and the red tends to be from the west side of the Beaulieu river,

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and the yellow tends to be from the east side.

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So round about the site,

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the buildings do tend to be more red brick.

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Choosing the brickwork is left to Andy and Vicky,

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but when Wendy arrives with her colleague Darren to see

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the bricks they've picked, first impressions aren't good.

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Ooh.

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What's that?

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It's a bit spotty.

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That's the first time that I've seen the brickwork.

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It's all gone up in one week.

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There's quite a lot of grey overburn in it,

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it's making it a little bit patchy.

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Wendy wants to take a closer look.

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It's all sand, isn't it?

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-ALL: Yeah.

-There's actually more colour in that brickwork than you realise

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-when you get close up.

-Yeah.

-There's more variation.

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-So we just need it to be rained on for a few days.

-Yeah.

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Four weeks later, it's mid-May, the gardens have been open to the public

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for six weeks and finally the work to the exterior is just about complete.

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Wendy's back to see how the house is settling into its new surroundings.

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Gosh!

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SHE LAUGHS

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It looks really good.

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It just...looks like it was meant to be there.

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The old cottage that was in situ just six months ago has been

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replaced by a contemporary and stylish

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four-bedroom family home.

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The clay tiles and hand-picked bricks have come together beautifully

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to make a home worthy of its picturesque surroundings.

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Do you know what's lovely is the light on the clay tiles,

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that texture.

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-Yes.

-It's very nice.

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Very pleased with these tiles and brickwork.

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And it's broken up so it's not just a solid, it's got interest.

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It's really all starting to make sense now.

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-It is.

-You can actually just...

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Stand back and the building can start to breathe.

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I love the way as you go round the garden it just disappears

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totally out of sight.

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Yeah, and it will continue that because we've got to do

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the landscaping at the front and the planting at the front,

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and then it will even more settle into its landscape.

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Yeah.

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Severe weather and a change in the work schedule means

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the exterior was finished six weeks later than planned.

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Inside, move-in day is still a few months away.

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Oh, wow, that's great.

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Is this the first time you've been in and seen that?

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Yes.

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-Because that is fantastic.

-Yes.

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It sort of had us jumping up and down.

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The window in and that tree in blossom.

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Upstairs has still has to be boarded out

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but everywhere you look there are glimpses of just

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how wonderful this house is going to be when it's finished.

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This will be where the staircase comes up...

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and takes you into

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the master bedroom which has got the wow factor which is the view.

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It is absolutely terrific.

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Amazing.

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It's definitely one of the best views from any

0:18:580:19:01

bedroom in Hampshire, I'm sure.

0:19:010:19:03

I think it'll be a wonderful place to wake up in the morning.

0:19:040:19:07

Yeah.

0:19:070:19:08

I really hope that it's what Andy and Vicky were thinking of.

0:19:080:19:12

It's certainly what, you know,

0:19:120:19:14

when I did the initial feasibility study and...

0:19:140:19:18

..one of the things

0:19:190:19:20

that I tried to emphasise to them was that the house was very rooted

0:19:200:19:25

in the garden and that it was very much part of the garden setting.

0:19:250:19:29

And one of the sketches that I did right at the beginning was

0:19:290:19:33

just this view, you know,

0:19:330:19:35

from this approach as you come down the path and it's quite a sort of

0:19:350:19:38

modest little building that you start to glimpse through the trees.

0:19:380:19:43

It just feels right.

0:19:430:19:45

As the house progresses we can see that we're realising

0:19:470:19:50

the dream that we had at the very beginning.

0:19:500:19:53

It is getting there, and it's going to be the most fantastic

0:19:530:19:56

place to live in the most wonderful setting.

0:19:560:19:59

In Wales, Jon and Marianne's build

0:20:040:20:06

is running two months behind its original schedule.

0:20:060:20:08

The last date we've had from them is the end of May,

0:20:080:20:12

but I don't think it'll be ready by the end of May

0:20:120:20:15

so I'm just waiting now for them to give a new date.

0:20:150:20:19

I think there's too much to do.

0:20:190:20:21

We are talking about a load of men here, aren't we?!

0:20:210:20:24

So, yeah, maybe a woman could have had them all lined up.

0:20:240:20:27

You know, the ducks in a row?

0:20:270:20:28

On site things ARE moving forward.

0:20:290:20:32

The kitchen that James fought so hard for is finally being installed.

0:20:320:20:36

Morning.

0:20:360:20:38

And he's come to make sure the massive worktop for the island

0:20:380:20:40

he'd championed makes it safely in.

0:20:400:20:43

This is going to be very fun!

0:20:430:20:45

Made out of natural minerals and acrylic,

0:20:450:20:47

it weighs in at an impressive 150kg.

0:20:470:20:50

It takes six men to lift the surface onto the crane that will

0:20:520:20:55

hoist it to the first floor and in through the balcony door.

0:20:550:20:58

This is one of the last big things to go in.

0:20:580:21:01

This is built as one piece and so it needs to go in as one.

0:21:010:21:07

It's fairly heavy and it's also very delicate

0:21:070:21:09

cos you've got to lift it in the right parts.

0:21:090:21:12

So, resting the worktop on its weakest section

0:21:120:21:14

perhaps isn't the best plan.

0:21:140:21:17

Is that strong enough that section there?

0:21:170:21:19

-You've got to be careful with that.

-That's what I mean.

0:21:190:21:21

Watch your back. Watch your back.

0:21:210:21:24

But it's on and the team carefully winch it to the balcony above.

0:21:280:21:31

With the base already in situ, Marianne's island has to fit exactly

0:21:370:21:41

or all of the sweat and effort will have been for nothing.

0:21:410:21:44

-It's perfectly sat on there. First time.

-Is it?

-Yeah, just about.

0:21:500:21:54

A few millimetres.

0:21:540:21:55

Incredible.

0:21:570:22:00

The giant island is in and exactly as James imagined.

0:22:000:22:03

It's beautiful material. I mean, it's massive, isn't it?

0:22:050:22:09

It's been four years since Chris Loyn first put brush to paper

0:22:110:22:15

and painted this incredible house.

0:22:150:22:17

Over the course of its 11-month build there have been heady highs.

0:22:170:22:21

LAUGHS

0:22:210:22:22

Over here! That's right!

0:22:220:22:24

One day I'm going to live in a house like this

0:22:240:22:26

and not just do it for others.

0:22:260:22:28

Oh, I can't believe it.

0:22:290:22:30

And life-threatening lows.

0:22:320:22:35

Unfortunately, Marianne is now in hospital.

0:22:350:22:39

She'll be in hospital for about two and a half weeks

0:22:390:22:42

and it's just a slow process.

0:22:420:22:45

But throughout, James, Chris and Marianne...

0:22:450:22:47

It doesn't fit!

0:22:470:22:49

..have steadfastly driven their dream of a

0:22:490:22:52

hi tech upside-down home ever onwards.

0:22:520:22:54

-It's the end of May.

-So, you looking forward to this?

0:23:020:23:05

James and colleague Chris have come to site see Marianne

0:23:050:23:08

and show her how far the house has progressed.

0:23:080:23:10

It looks well, doesn't it?

0:23:100:23:11

Yeah, it's very, very discreet.

0:23:110:23:13

Marianne's lengthy stay in hospital, the builders' battle

0:23:130:23:16

with high winds and rain, and the sheer technical complexity

0:23:160:23:19

of this build mean that two months late it's still not quite finished.

0:23:190:23:23

But now with the stunning kitchen installed...

0:23:240:23:27

..the sedum roof established...

0:23:290:23:31

..and the rooms and spaces beginning to

0:23:350:23:37

take on their final form...

0:23:370:23:39

..Marianne and Jon are just weeks away

0:23:400:23:43

from finally moving in and enjoying the views they've been dreaming of.

0:23:430:23:46

Oh, first time we've seen the stove, Jon.

0:23:490:23:52

-Yep. Like it?

-I do like it, yeah. Oh, this is fab, isn't it?

0:23:520:23:56

Well, this is the bit of the house that we replicated what goes on

0:23:560:24:00

in your house where people turn up and realise how amazing the view is.

0:24:000:24:03

Yeah.

0:24:030:24:05

And that's why we've got that, whoa!

0:24:050:24:07

And the view just straight ahead.

0:24:070:24:09

The double-height space Chris imagined

0:24:100:24:12

right from the beginning opens up the ground floor to the sky above.

0:24:120:24:16

This is great because otherwise this would be a dark corridor,

0:24:160:24:19

wouldn't it?

0:24:190:24:20

It is also a way of finding things so

0:24:200:24:23

if you're down there it's straight into your lift, straight upstairs.

0:24:230:24:26

All the bedrooms are on the ground floor, two have their own en-suite

0:24:260:24:30

wet room with a special feature in Marianne and Jon's master.

0:24:300:24:33

We've got the same detail here where you'll just be able to wheel

0:24:330:24:36

-straight in.

-Right.

0:24:360:24:38

But we've put...

0:24:380:24:40

got a shower seat.

0:24:400:24:41

Oh, nice. Nice for me in this situation, isn't it?

0:24:410:24:44

You know, you can do your feet, your legs, whatever you want to do.

0:24:440:24:47

-Yeah, it's nice. It's comfortable.

-Yeah.

-Yeah.

0:24:470:24:50

I also think standing under the shower is just too draining

0:24:500:24:53

-sometimes, pardon the pun!

-Yeah.

0:24:530:24:55

The lift to the first floor was meant to be

0:24:570:24:59

part of the house's future-proofing measures to make the house

0:24:590:25:02

practical in the years to come.

0:25:020:25:03

Thankfully, Marianne is on the mend

0:25:030:25:05

but her illness has meant it's already invaluable.

0:25:050:25:08

-Hey, look at that floor.

-Are you ready for this?

0:25:080:25:11

-Yes, I'm ready.

-OK, this is it.

0:25:110:25:14

This is it. Oh, it's fantastic.

0:25:140:25:17

Yeah. It's fab.

0:25:170:25:19

I think the fact that it's a white plane, like the other walls,

0:25:190:25:22

like your furniture is going to be with that in the background,

0:25:220:25:25

just reflects the light and I think it's really successful so I'm glad we made that decision.

0:25:250:25:29

Because originally we were going to have black, weren't we?

0:25:290:25:31

-Well, I think you wanted black!

-Yeah!

0:25:310:25:33

LAUGHTER

0:25:330:25:36

The kitchen is the heart of the new home.

0:25:360:25:39

With stunning views across the Welsh countryside,

0:25:390:25:41

an instant boiling water tap and a smart induction wok hob.

0:25:410:25:45

I like these. I like the drawers.

0:25:460:25:48

From the beginning, James has fought Marianne

0:25:480:25:51

and her kitchen designer to have a central kitchen island rather

0:25:510:25:54

than a worktop running into the wall.

0:25:540:25:56

I'm your kitchen unit.

0:25:560:25:58

Yeah, you won the battle on that one, didn't you?!

0:25:590:26:02

Yeah.

0:26:020:26:03

But it wasn't for the sake of winning...

0:26:030:26:06

because I felt so strongly that it was the right decision.

0:26:060:26:08

Yeah.

0:26:080:26:10

And Marianne hasn't forgotten to give Jon his own space.

0:26:100:26:13

Hidden just around the still-to-be-rendered circular staircase.

0:26:130:26:17

As we come round

0:26:170:26:18

and see the completely different type of glass in here.

0:26:180:26:21

You do get the feeling, don't you, when you're standing here, you know, there's nothing there?

0:26:210:26:25

Well this is one of the most expensive windows

0:26:250:26:27

because it has to be even thicker in case you do fall against it.

0:26:270:26:31

Right, I see.

0:26:310:26:33

-Do you want to test it?

-No!

0:26:330:26:35

OK.

0:26:350:26:36

Not yet. Not until the building is finished!

0:26:360:26:38

HE LAUGHS

0:26:380:26:40

And Jon's already got plans for his new space.

0:26:400:26:43

I see it as a sort of study really

0:26:430:26:45

because I'll have the desk in the middle of the room

0:26:450:26:47

and then I've got my nice bits of furniture down the side here.

0:26:470:26:52

It still feels like part of that space in terms of the connection.

0:26:520:26:56

I think this room is too big to be Jon's room.

0:26:560:26:59

- Well, not really because once I've got all my furniture in... - I think he's got too much space.

0:26:590:27:04

If Jon does manage to keep his room it's still going to be a few

0:27:040:27:07

weeks before he can move his furniture over from the old house.

0:27:070:27:10

But James hopes it'll be worth the wait to achieve the perfect home.

0:27:100:27:14

As you get closer to the end and we're so exacting on all

0:27:140:27:18

of the tiny little details, this isn't a pastiche building,

0:27:180:27:23

it's a cutting edge, modern building with a lot of complicated junctions.

0:27:230:27:29

And I think actually, you know, if the contractor does take

0:27:290:27:32

a little bit longer to achieve the standards that we require,

0:27:320:27:35

and on the basis that the client is happy with that,

0:27:350:27:38

then there's no objection.

0:27:380:27:41

I can't believe it.

0:27:410:27:42

I can't believe that we're

0:27:420:27:44

so fortunate to be in a position to be able to do it.

0:27:440:27:49

Lots of people have a dream about building a house, I suppose,

0:27:490:27:52

but to be able to fulfil that dream I think we're very fortunate.

0:27:520:27:56

It's more than bricks and mortar.

0:27:560:27:58

This was obviously Marianne's project

0:27:580:28:00

and has been all the way along, even when she was in the hospital.

0:28:000:28:04

It's worked out exactly how she said it was going to do

0:28:040:28:06

and I think she should be very proud of what's she's achieved.

0:28:060:28:09

Oh, thank you.

0:28:100:28:12

LAUGHTER

0:28:120:28:13

Next time, in Hertfordshire,

0:28:150:28:17

a total home renovation looks set to drive owner David over the edge

0:28:170:28:21

Nightmare, dream? Take your pick!

0:28:210:28:23

And in Dorset, there's plans for an amazing factory-built house,

0:28:230:28:26

but will the project be scuppered by the planners before it's even broken ground?

0:28:260:28:30

Well, he ain't going to budge.

0:28:300:28:32

If we reduce the size of it, he'll potentially support it.

0:28:320:28:35

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