Siân Phillips The Sian Williams Interview

Today, I'm meeting one of our most celebrated stars

of the stage and screen.

She grew up on a farm in West Wales,

and knew from the age of six that acting was to be her destiny.

Married three times, most famously to the actor Peter O'Toole,

she has had a remarkable life and a career spanning seven decades.

It's time to meet Sian Phillips.

I can remember writing, "I am now resolved to be an actress."

Why did you get married to him?

I don't know, I remember my father saying on the morning

of the wedding, he said, "You don't have to do this, you know."

I must have looked a little worried.

And I woke up in the morning and switched on my radio

and a voice said, "Now we hand you over to Sian Phillips in Cardiff."

-And you were still in your...?

-I was in bed.

Scars all across my forehead, right across there.

I just, just escaped having my eyes destroyed.

And he said, "No, no.

"Everything has to go on the way it used to."

And I thought, "No, it can't, that's not right. It isn't right at all."

Sian Phillips, it's such an honour to meet you.

That's very nice of you.

-It is, I feel I've known you all my life.

-Yes, well, ditto!

-But people have always called me Sian Phillips by mistake.

-Have they?

They have, for almost 50 years now.

-So it's nice to sit with another Sian.

-Well, yes, yes.

Well, how, then, did a little girl from a very Welsh farm

go on to become an actress?

Where did that acting bug...?

I think there were an awful lot of actors in those villages.

I think almost every... You know, there were star preachers.

Because they were all performers. It was part of the Welsh character.

Yes, and telling stories at night,

before the advent of television or even radio.

People would sit for hours and tell stories.

So...I think I was surrounded by actors, in fact.

They may have been masquerading as farmers, or coal miners,

but they were actually quite good actors as well.

Can you remember your first performance?

Yes. I was a very, very junior fairy.

And I loved my costume.

And, well, I still have the wings,

which I thought were the most glamorous things.

-I must have been four.

-Look at these!

-But I kept my wings.

Yes, well, they're very precious. They're really, really beautiful.

-But I thought they were gigantic.

-They were when you were that big!

-I imagine they were.

-I know!

But it was a trip to Swansea, wasn't it, when you were very little,

when you were six, so only a couple of years later,

that made you think, "This is the moment"?

It was a pantomime that made me want to go on the stage.

The dark, and the red plush.

And the curtain going up, and the gold fringe.

And the band. It was total magic.

Did you start your acting proper then? At the age of six?

Well, I did have a journal which my mother threw away, of course.

And it was an old ledger and I can remember writing,

"I am now resolved to be an actress."

You know, and I remember writing that in it.

And my mother saying, "What's that?"

I said, "That's what I want to be." She said, "That's ridiculous."

No-one ever talked about it.

Why did she think it was ridiculous?

Well, I think, you know, in Wales when I was a child,

people were coming out of the '30s depression.

And times were so hard,

that for anybody to go into a high-risk profession was unheard of.

So children from my neighbourhood all became teachers, doctors, solicitors.

-And your mother had been a teacher as well.

-My mother,

she didn't teach me anything, only reciting.

She never taught me anything. I spent most of my childhood alone at home.

When I wasn't performing, I was being ill.

So I just was on my own most of the time, but in heavenly countryside.

I mean, I had a childhood which was so perfect.

It...it was so happy, I can't begin... I just read and walked.

It was idyllic, it was totally idyllic.

So despite the fact that you were ill, you had scarlet fever,

-you had eczema.

-I nearly died a lot of times, you know.

So I think my parents were quite strict with me

because I was an only child and my sister had died.

My sister, who would have been older than me by a couple of years,

died unaccountably.

It was one of those cot deaths

that were unknown at the time, you know, nobody knew.

So...I think they must have been terrified every time I nearly died.

I'm just going to show you something that was written...

Your mother clearly didn't throw everything away.

No, she didn't, I can't think how this slipped through the net.

This is in Welsh, so you'll be better at translating this than I.

I starred in this play. It was Mair a'r wyau, Mair and the Eggs.

And this is the story of a little girl and a basket of eggs.

And we performed this in my primary school on one of the rare terms

when I was actually there.

And I can remember it still, the basket and the eggs.

And I was Mair.

So I played the star part in this play. It's only two pages!

So when you got to grammar school, what was that like?

I think I was probably a successful schoolgirl. I just adored it.

-I loved every second of it.

-And did you do more drama at grammar?

Oh, yes. By that time, of course, I was beginning to work.

I was working for the BBC.

So I was being given leave of absence already to go to Swansea

-or to go to Cardiff from Pontardawe.

-Really?

-Oh, yes. To broadcast.

And what would you do in Swansea and Cardiff?

I would be in Children's Hour.

And I would also be in poetry programmes.

The cultural life of Wales is very important and, of course,

-there's the Eisteddfod.

-Yeah.

-In fact, we have...

-Wow!

-Have you not seen that before?

-No, I haven't seen that before.

-That's the one that you did.

-I was 11, that's it, yeah.

That was very exciting,

that was the biggest audience I'd ever played to, obviously.

It was thousands, 13,000 people.

-So you won!

-So we won.

-And here you are.

-Is this it?

-Yes, this is the announcement where you won.

-I'm just looking for your name there.

-Aelwen, would it be Aelwen?

-So you weren't Sian there?

-No, I wasn't Sian there.

-You were Jane Elizabeth...

-Aelwen.

And it's not even Ael-wen, it's Ael-win.

So nobody got it right.

It was a made-up name, it means second smile.

-Oh, lovely.

-Because my sister had died.

-So that was a name my mother made up.

-Oh, that's nice.

So the BBC invited you to perform in their mobile studio?

Yes, to repeat that. And then I think it was probably Lorraine Davis

who first engaged me to go and actually act in Cardiff,

to do proper acting.

In fact, this, I think, is one of your first cheques.

-They did everything in guineas. So it was 10 shillings.

-Plus rail fare.

Plus rail fare, which, of course, I didn't use, I took the bus and saved.

And look here, you're still Miss Jane...

Yes, exactly, I would have still have been Jane.

But by that time, I was being called Sian.

Because Ike Davis at school, who was my Welsh master, changed it.

Ike Davis. He was very influential, wasn't he, on you?

Oh, there he is, with the pipe, of course. Oh, yes.

And of course, he wrote plays as well which we performed at school.

You know, he was actually writing for us, it was great.

So you did feel there were some people in your life, even then,

who got hold of you and knew what you wanted to do

and helped you get there?

My headmaster, Stan Reiss,

who was very interested in drama,

he asked Hugh Griffith to come up.

Hugh was visiting the Grand Theatre, Swansea,

and he asked Hugh to come up, nine miles up the valley on a bus,

to school, to see me act, to see if I was any good.

And then he wrote a letter to my mother, saying,

"I really recommend that you send her to RADA now."

And I was 15, so I would have gone when I was 16,

which I was desperate to do.

And even my headmaster said, "That is where you must go, eventually."

And, um...my mother didn't even answer the letter, she threw it away.

Why?

Well, it was inconceivable to any parent where I lived

that one shouldn't go to university.

-It was out of the question.

-So education was all?

Oh, it was the most important thing, but I knew what I was going to do.

I thought I would just do my degree and then I'll do it, so I did.

-Where did you do your degree?

-I did my degree at Cardiff University.

That was the big bonus of being at university,

because the back door of the university

was opposite the front door of the BBC.

So I wore a track between the two doors

and I would get up really early in the morning

and go and open the station, as the most junior announcer.

And I'd be there,

and then I would write my essays in the announcers' suite.

I would write essays. Then run back to the university, do a few lectures.

-So you were 17 at this point?

-17, 18, 19.

-And you were a radio announcer?

-I was.

I was terrified of announcing because it's a grown-up job.

You know, you've really got to be able to add up.

-So I was suspended a couple of times.

-Why?

Well, there was one terrible morning, when I'd gone to bed, exhausted.

And I woke up in the morning and switched on my radio

and a voice said, "Now we hand you over to Sian Phillips in Cardiff."

-And you were still in your...?

-I was in bed. I was in my pyjamas.

I was out on the road in my pyjamas in under 10 seconds,

flagging down a lift, into the BBC, where I apologised

for a technical fault at the transmitter because it sounded good.

That always works. I use that all the time.

The engineers were furious, they were absolutely livid.

There were things like that, obviously.

And I was a little bit inexpert with playing records.

And I did once get my scarf caught in the epilogue,

as it was going round, slowly,

and I was trying to read the time,

because I'd forgotten to take the duration

of this huge, slow disc that was going round.

So I was going, can it be nine seconds, no?

But my scarf got caught in the arm.

And I was gradually being sucked down as it went round,

I was getting closer and closer to the epilogue,

and signalling frantically at the engineer in the next room.

Finally he saw me and came and cut me out.

Because I don't know what would have happened

if my nose had actually hit the epilogue, not good.

But... And I loved it.

And when the time came for me to go to RADA,

because it did come eventually,

there was a moment when they said, "Well, you can...

"we will train you to be the first anchorwoman."

-Really?

-Yes, in Wales, because there weren't any woman doing that job.

And television was starting and I had started to do television.

It was a genuine dilemma.

Although everything I wanted in life was coming true,

and I was going to go to RADA,

I loved the BBC so much.

There were days and days where I thought,

I really don't want to leave this place.

So you moved to RADA at 20.

That must have been terribly exciting.

Describe if you can, if you can remember what it was like,

when you walk into this building, with all these fellow actors.

Oh, yes.

The door with the two statues either side and the boards up,

with all...Charles Laughton's name, and Celia Johnson.

It was just... It was everything I had imagined it would be

from the age of six.

It was better.

I'd never been so happy in my life, you know,

because I thought, "I was right, I was absolutely right.

"This is where I'm supposed to be."

So, Sian, you had this passion to get to London

and to learn the skill and craft of acting.

-You were married...

-Yes, I was.

-..at this stage.

-I know.

-You'd met Don, who was a postgrad student...

-Yes, yes.

-..and married him.

-And got married, yes, we did.

It was very short-lived, it was all my fault, really, I think.

Because I knew what was going to happen.

Every boyfriend I ever had, or every fiance or every husband,

come to that, there always came a moment when they said,

"But, of course, you would give up acting."

And I just couldn't ever do that.

It was impossible.

And I knew I wasn't ever going to be...to do that.

I don't think he could have realised how obsessed I was, really.

-Why did you get married to him?

-Well, er...

It was because, I don't know.

I remember my father saying on the morning of the wedding,

he said, "You don't have to do this, you know."

I must've looked little worried.

-You were wearing grey.

-I was wearing grey.

-And no flowers.

-I know.

I mean, I was very fond of him, of course, he was a wonderful person.

It had gone too far, the whole thing snowballed

and the arrangements were made and the families met

and the whole thing went forward.

And I just felt it would be so rude not to, somehow,

-which was really stupid.

-Did you tell Don you'd been accepted at RADA?

Do you know? I can't even remember that. I really...

I think the whole thing was so painful

and so very worrying at the time.

I realised that when the chips were down, I wouldn't have a choice.

-I didn't have a choice. So I just went.

-Do you regret it?

-No.

No, I don't.

The main thing for me was that I was suddenly ecstatically happy.

And I knew I was where I was supposed to be.

You were doing so well at RADA at this time.

You were winning awards,

you won the Bancroft Gold Medal for your performances.

-You had a chance to go into films...

-Yes.

-..and decided not to. Why?

I was just called into the office and told,

"These offers have come through, but, of course, you won't accept them."

And I said, "No, certainly not."

And they said, "Because we have trained you for the theatre.

"That's what you've been trained for."

But Paramount showed so much interest in you at one stage,

-that you had been in a rather nasty car crash.

-Yes, I had.

-And had injuries to your face.

-My face was flattened.

My nose was broken, my jaw was broken.

And I had scars all across my forehead.

You know, right across there,

I just, just escaped having my eyes destroyed.

And I think it was Paramount or Columbia that said,

"No, we must put your face back where it was." And Paramount paid for it.

So it was a whole...

he had a photograph of me and he just remade the face completely.

-You were doing a lot of television work at this stage.

-A lot, yes.

I just want to show you something here.

I don't know whether you remember this. This is A Quiet Man.

-Oh, my goodness, I do remember.

-Yes?

-Yes!

-From the BBC's Welsh television studios.

By gosh, yes.

Oh, that's... How amazing.

Gosh, yes.

Yes, I did an awful lot of plays at the time.

But doing live performances on television. And this lasted an hour.

I know. And you not only did the performance, but you did the trailer.

-Did you?!

-You had to go into the studio to do the trailer,

and what was more,

-if it was a big production, you went in and did the repeat.

-Did you?!

-So you had to do the whole hour again?

-You did it twice.

You did it all again, yeah.

The BBC did a behind-the-scenes of you and some fellow actors

-and actresses. And that's you.

-I've never seen this. It's extraordinary.

My goodness.

Gosh, I'll have to put my glasses on. I can't...

-So you're doing a radio play here.

-I was doing a radio play, yes.

-What's it like, looking at yourself?

-It's very strange.

Oh, and there's Doria. Doria Noar.

That's right, who was married to Ken Griffith.

-Oh.

-Yes. Well, of course, there's Ken and Doria.

-And...

-Peter O'Toole.

-Peter O'Toole.

The man that you were going to spend 20 years of your life with

-and, of course, marry.

-Yes, indeed. That was before we got married.

-Was it?

-Oh, yes.

-So, how did it start, then?

Well, I just ran into him on the pavement outside the Spaghetti House

off Broad Street in London where I was at RADA.

And he was on the pavement, visiting from Bristol Old Vic.

He was already out in the world and playing. I was still a student.

And I came out and I was introduced to him.

And I just mentally made a note. I thought, "I'll marry him one day."

And I just walked away, and we didn't see each other again for...

Could have been 18 months, maybe two years.

So what was it about that moment?

What was it about him that you thought,

-"That's the man I'm going to marry"?

-Yes, I just knew I would marry him.

-What was it about him?

-Well, he seemed...

He was, and he seemed to me particularly, unlike anybody else.

I was wrong in this regard, actually. I made a mistake.

But it seemed to me that he was a very free spirit

and quite unlike all the other men I'd ever met in that he would

never want me to stop acting or cut back or be domesticated

in any way, which I was not.

I never pretended I was.

And it was wonderful.

I adored him, and he did adore me, and it was very, very happy,

but also, of course, I didn't realise that he was a lot cleverer

than I was, and actually,

he managed to bed me down in domesticity in a way that

nobody else had been able to, because they were more upfront about it.

But he was much more subtle and much more skilful.

In your book, you say, "Clever women never nagged.

"They dodged the flying crockery

"and went away to get some peaceful sleep,

"and never in the morning referred to

"the excesses of the night before."

Well, no. Not if you want a decent life, you know, no, you don't.

And anyway, I hate scenes. That's another failing, I don't like scenes.

-So he was charming?

-Oh, totally, yes. Very amusing.

Terribly funny man. Very funny.

So even though he was difficult and sometimes cruel

-and would drink and say hurtful things...

-Yes, he would.

But the problem was, I was very amused and diverted at the same time.

I couldn't help it.

But you're formidable, and you've got this steely core.

And yet when it came to men, or when it came to him, that disappeared.

It was him particularly, because other men I would walk away from.

But him, I just couldn't. I just adored him.

He was more wonderful than awful.

And you acted together as well.

Actually, you acted together after you'd married. This is Siwan.

The king's daughter. And you were... You must have been pregnant.

-I was pregnant, yes.

-With Kate, your first daughter.

-That's right.

There are things in me that you awaken.

-They frighten me.

-The things that make life sweet?

That make life bitter.

Things that have been dumb. Things I hid from my own sight because I had no part in them.

I don't like watching myself.

-Don't you? I'm sorry. Why not?

-I don't know.

It's never quite what you meant.

Do I? No, I don't. Business and pleasure are two things apart.

Pleasure? That's not the name of the love I have for you.

Your flattery falls rather short tonight.

Is it because I'm so old that your love gives you pain?

-I didn't come here to be teased.

-You know I am ten years older than you,

and the mother of four grown children. That's not teasing.

You're analysing your own acting there, aren't you? I can feel it.

Did you feel your career might have gone differently had you not

married him?

-Oh, totally differently, yes, it would.

-In what way?

Well, I wouldn't have had those constraints. I wouldn't have spent...

I spent a good 15 years, really, tailoring my work to my life,

which you don't do, especially not those years,

those years between the age of 25 and 40.

That's when the offers are very big and very nice.

And they're the most important years for you, in a way.

I was very isolated during that period.

So all the connections I'd ever made in the business were severed,

because he didn't like to have strangers in one's life.

I didn't have friends, you know.

I couldn't see any way out of it other than leaving,

and at that point, I just couldn't leave. I just couldn't.

-It sounds like quite a lonely existence.

-It was lonely. It was.

And especially, I would imagine,

-when he gets the role of Lawrence of Arabia?

-Yes.

And that took two years to film.

And that was a huge role.

-And a lot of pressure on him. A huge amount of pressure.

-Enormous.

-And there he is. Did you go out?

-A tremendous amount.

I loved the desert. I just loved living under canvas.

And he had it in his contract I could go out once a month.

What sort of acting roles were you taking on at this stage?

Well, I was managing...

Mostly I was keeping quiet,

because it was very awkward

when I did very well, or when people paid a lot of attention to me.

Domestically, it wasn't easy.

So I used to keep as quiet as I could, but unfortunately,

I did have a lot of success in that time, quite accidentally.

-It just sort of happened.

-I'm going to show you another clip here.

See if you know what this is.

Oh! I think I do know.

This is behind the scenes,

so they're just showing you behind the scenes.

-It's How Green Was My Valley.

-That's it. Stanley Baker.

He was so wonderful in this.

-I don't think it's ever been repeated, you know.

-Hasn't it?

I don't think so.

I hear you've been saying some unheard-of things

down in Calfaria.

-Yes, Mam.

-Good.

Good boy.

Your mam is so glad, she could scream.

Beth?!

That was Stanley Baker's last part before he died.

-You're as bad as he is, girl.

-Yes, Gwilym Morgan.

And you are as bad as that pack down by there.

I can see now where they get it from.

No wonder I'm rearing a nest of scorpions in this house.

Yeah.

But the thing I suppose that you're known for in many people's eyes

is I, Claudius, where you played the scheming Livia.

Yes. Oh, yes.

Loved it.

Hands knocking on your doors.

You're all crying for the moon.

Go on back to your homes and...

You call yourselves Romans?

THEY CHUCKLE

-Do you remember that?

-Yes, I do!

-Being pelted with I don't know what.

They were a bit over-enthusiastic, I thought.

-Yes! Was it meant to hit you right in the eye?

-I don't suppose so.

I don't suppose it was!

We've got another clip here.

(I must get away from her.)

(I must leave Rome.)

You'll stay.

You'll have patience.

As I have.

Where has your patience got you?

You've watched him, Mother.

If you leave Rome,

I'll wash my hands of you once and for all.

And shed not a single tear.

-That was a big role, though, wasn't it?

-Yes, it was.

-Huge television success.

-Yes, it was.

So, how were things, then, in your relationship at this time,

with Peter, when he didn't like you being a huge success?

Well, our marriage did sort of unravel round about that time.

It just did.

So when was the moment when you thought,

"I can't live with this man any more -

"I've got to have a different sort of life"?

Well, it was really after he'd been very, very ill, mortally ill,

and had been expected not to survive.

It had been really heartbreaking and terribly worrying, the worst

time I'd ever had in my life, when I thought I was going to lose him.

And then life began to reassert itself, and I thought, "We can't

"go on in that sort of separate way that we'd been going on before.

"That's not right."

And he said, "No, everything has to go on the way it used to.

And I thought, "No, it can't.

"That's not right. It isn't right at all." And it was then.

I thought, "If it has to go back to being like that,

"then that's not right.

"It just isn't right."

And somebody else came on the scene after that?

Yes, but it was really...

If anything was ever meant to be a fling, it was that, I'm afraid.

But you were married to Robin Sachs for 12 years.

I married him later, yes, but it was a terrible mistake.

I mean, I knew it was. I didn't want to marry him.

And he went on and on and on for three years, you know, pestered,

after I'd left O'Toole.

What is it about these men who pester you into marriage?

I don't know. It's a weakness, that's what it is.

It's not "what is it about them?" It's "what is it about me?"

Because there was a special licence and a party ready to go, and...

And of course I should have said no, absolutely.

But I didn't.

-And then what was that part of your life like?

-Well, it wasn't good.

I'm really not proud of this at all, but I just did what I wanted to do.

I started to work much harder.

It always sounds to me like

there's a tussle with you between what you actually want to do

and the love you have for acting,

and what you feel you ought to do.

Yes, this is true.

And it took a long time in the case of O'Toole for that become resolved.

But with everything else, it happened very quickly.

There wasn't much contest.

Back to the work you've been doing on the stage.

You had a very successful role, Marlene.

All the songs that she used to sing in her cabaret were in that show.

So I took that all over the world, and it was marvellous to do.

Because I met so many people that knew her.

One of my favourite jobs recently was doing Juliet.

Romeo and Juliet, set in a care home.

So I finally got to play Juliet!

-At the age of what?

-How old was I then?

About 75, I suppose!

And then I've been in America now doing

-The Importance Of Being Earnest in Washington.

-As Lady Bracknell.

Yes, and I'm going to do it again in the West End.

So it sounds like a very exciting year.

Last year, I imagine, must have been quite a difficult one for you,

-because Peter O'Toole died.

-Yes.

-And you had to go to the funeral?

-Yes.

That was December of last year. And that was, um...

Just before Christmas. It was terribly sad.

Because I was in Washington, and I knew he was dying when I left,

but he died a week after I'd got to Washington, so I turned around

and came back, just for the day, and then went back to work.

It was terribly, terribly sad.

Can you remember the last conversation you had together?

That was so long ago.

-Was it?

-Oh, yes.

And it wasn't a nice conversation. But...

No, that was not a good memory.

I can't even remember entirely, you know, what it was.

But it was a very long time ago.

-Now you are in a happier place.

-Yes, I am.

-And enjoying life?

-Very much.

Very much indeed.

I could never have expected to be having such a good time.

I feel happy now in the way I was happy when I was a child.

I realised the other...

Last year, maybe, or the year before.

I thought, "Gosh,

"this is exactly what I thought I would be doing when I grew up."

You know, my vision of myself when I was small was this,

what I'm living now.

And it's taken all this time for me to work my way back to it.