Tanni Grey-Thompson The Sian Williams Interview

Today I'm meeting one of Britain's most successful and popular athletes.

Her story is one of struggles and triumphs,

but it's taken her from the track to the House of Lords.

It's time to meet Tanni Grey-Thompson.

We had a letter from the head teacher, which said,

"Dear Mr and Mrs Grey, we've noticed that Tanni's in a wheelchair.

"We don't take people like Tanni at our school."

"We don't take people like Tanni?"

From the minute I tried a racing chair, that was it.

I didn't want to do any other sport.

Actually sitting in the chamber with her,

and being able to say to her, "Because of you I'm here,"

was a really big deal for me emotionally.

THEY LAUGH

Do you know what? I never even vaguely remembered that I said that.

I still feel this huge pressure to live up to

everything Mum and Dad gave me.

You know, it's hard. But most of the time, it's a really,

really positive thing to have in my life.

-Tanni, it's lovely to see you.

-Thank you.

Thank you very much for agreeing to this

because I just want to say something that you said a little while ago,

but you did say, "I really don't like that kind of public

"exposure, where they go through your life in half an hour."

-Did I really say that?

-You really said that.

-OK.

-What's changed?

-Erm...

I think it's kind of having people that know what they're doing.

It's always a bit strange. People have a view of me

either as an athlete or as a parliamentarian...

cos they've seen you in their living room.

When I was competing, they might have come to watch me compete.

And a lot of the time, what they think of you is not reality.

So it is slightly strange, sort of, having the...

And I think I had a bad experience on This Is Your Life.

-Oh...

-Which brought out all sorts of people that I didn't really know.

-Or like.

-Or pretended to be my best friend.

And you go, "Oh, it's lovely to see you again. Thank you."

I'll show you that. You were on Question Of Sport...

and here you go.

-You were on Ally McCoist's team, weren't you?

-Yeah.

-Who's this?

-Oh...! Do you know why?

I'm looking really smug because they told me

beforehand they were doing John Parrott...

so that's why I'm looking...

I'm looking not even interested cos I'm going,

"They're doing John Parrott. This is really funny."

You've got a wonderful selection of sporting talent...

You couldn't be bothered, could you?

Five times Paralympic gold medallist Tanni Grey...

Yeah... Yeah... I'm really glad that all I said was, "Oh, my God."

-Erm... It was...

-That's so funny.

And I remember this. My husband, we weren't married then,

but he basically...picked the clothes that I wore,

and I remember thinking,

"I'm doing This Is Your Life and this is what I'm wearing!"

It's that bit when people come out and you're thinking,

"I don't really remember you." That's... That's quite hard.

But tell me about life growing up in Cardiff.

-Was it a happy childhood?

-It was a happy childhood.

I've got an older sister, Sian, who was 18 months older than me,

so I was always trying to play catch-up.

I was always trying to do the things that she was doing,

so I was probably a complete pain in the neck as a little sister.

Erm...but I became paralysed at seven. And for me,

I don't really remember much about it cos it was quite a slow process.

You were born with spina bifida.

I wonder when... Were you aware of pain when you were small?

No. I mean, there wasn't any pain.

And even when I became paralysed...

the cord was severed so slowly...

My spinal cord was exposed, my spine collapsed and, basically,

it just cut through my cord.

So I could walk for a couple of years pretty badly and then I...

As I gradually became paralysed, I used to fall over all the time.

That's the only point in my life I felt really disabled

because I couldn't play with my friends,

I couldn't run round, I couldn't do anything.

And then I had these callipers and crutches, which were really ugly.

And, again, I couldn't carry anything, I couldn't play...

And it was my father who just said, "OK. Let's try a chair."

And the doctors didn't want me

to do that cos they told my father that I was giving up and...

I would never have any life if I was a wheelchair user.

But I think... Dad was an architect.

He knew a lot about the built environment,

and he recognised that the best chance I had was to be mobile,

and fit and healthy. And, actually, that was by being in a wheelchair.

Although he didn't change anything in the house to make it any

easier for you, to be in a wheelchair.

He refused to make a house wheelchair accessible,

which I think, again, people thought was really cruel.

And he said to me at that point that he didn't want me

living at home forever.

He didn't want it to be the only place I could ever live.

Your parents, who clearly loved you deeply,

I do get the sense that what they instilled in you is a sense of -

you describe it yourself - as being bloody-minded...

and stubborn, and driven,

and all those words that have helped make you a very successful

athlete and parliamentarian.

But it was that grounding almost, those early years,

that formed your character.

Yeah, hugely. You know, when people did treat me differently...

I remember being refused to be allowed to go into the cinema

with my friends when I was probably about eight or nine...

and the manager saying that I was a fire risk.

And my mum turning around and saying,

"Well, she's never spontaneously combusted before."

I don't think I even knew what that meant.

So they were very good at standing up for me, but also being

really clear to me that it wasn't my problem I was in a wheelchair.

You know, it wasn't my fault.

It sounds like a very close family. Was it?

Yeah, we were very close.

My grandfather, my mum's dad,

was absolutely brilliant in terms of just, you know,

not treating me differently.

Just...being really, really supportive.

And I remember my gran, I suppose a product of the time,

going into the house, they had stepping stones of carpet...

so you didn't ruin the real carpet.

And I remember struggling to walk from stepping stone to

stepping stone, and my grandfather saying,

"Just let her walk wherever she wants to."

So my grandad... He was born in 1892.

You know, would have potentially had a very old-fashioned

view of impairment and disability,

he just kind of cut through a lot of that,

and I think that influenced my mum's attitude as well.

And your grandmother was instrumental in helping you do

things like learn to read.

And we've got this lovely little book here,

and it feels like it will break as soon as I pick it up cos it's

so delicate, so I'm going to give it to you.

It's a book of poetry, and I remember Nana sort of sitting,

sort of reading through it with me.

We've all written our names in it.

It was actually my mum's originally,

and that was given to her by her auntie Bessie,

so that was Christmas '47.

And then they crossed it out.

And that's my mum's writing, writing Sian's name in it.

And then I think I probably crossed it out and...

I don't know what that writing is. Yes, I...

This is so old, but I remember learning to read

The Owl And The Pussycat and sitting on my grandma's knee.

-I think it is going to fall apart.

-Oh...

I'm not sure what was written on the back either.

-That says "Wales."

-Looks like "Wales", doesn't it?

THEY LAUGH You were patriotic, even then.

-Quite right.

-I'm going to put it back before it does fall apart on me.

Keep it very, very safe.

You were talking about how persistent and stubborn your family were

at making sure that you got everything that anyone else would.

But when it came to getting you into secondary school,

it was a different matter.

-It was a slightly harder battle, wasn't it? What happened?

-It was.

I'd gone to my local primary school, then I was due to go to high school,

so I should have got to St Cyres in Cardiff,

which is where Sian was. And...

We had a letter from the head teacher, which said,

"Mr and Mrs Grey, we've noticed that Tanni's in a wheelchair.

"We don't take people like Tanni at our school."

-"We don't take people like Tanni"?

-Yeah. And...

I think that was really hard for my parents to deal with.

That was the first point I realised that people would really

-treat me differently.

-Were you cross?

Yeah, I was really annoyed.

Erm...cos I wanted to be where Sian was.

And we'd gone to see one of the special schools

that I might have gone to, and...

At 14 and 15, they were allowed to do three GCSEs,

so it was English, maths and home economics.

And... My parents saying, "Well, what's she going to do with that?"

It wasn't that I needed special ed.

I needed a school that was accessible.

And it was 1981 and...

Actually, in the late '70s, Baroness Warnock, Mary Warnock,

had written a white paper, which was about the right of disabled

children to be educated in a mainstream school.

And Dad got hold of a copy of it and then started writing letters,

really quite fierce ones.

It got to the point where he threatened to sue

the Secretary of State for Wales over my right to be

educated in a mainstream school.

And he basically just wore down the education authority

until I was allowed to go to a mainstream school.

But at the time, in South Glamorgan, there was

one comprehensive that took wheelchair users.

That was it, one. And I then found out I was on a waiting list,

which then Dad started writing letters again,

and then I was allowed to go. But without that...

Cos I think Dad was very passionate about education.

He always used to say to me, "Education gives you choices."

As an 11-year-old, you sit there and you think, "Yeah, whatever."

And then you realise, actually, when you're older...

Now I'm my age, I realise that, actually, that was possibly the most

important thing he gave me because that gave me access to sport,

university. Without all those different things,

I wouldn't have become a Paralympian.

-And what was it like when you got into secondary school?

-It was great.

I mean, I just remember being really happy that

I had the options that everyone else had.

I really enjoyed school.

Where did the love of sport come in?

Sport was always a really big thing in our house,

so my very first memory ever is watching Wales play New Zealand...

and wearing a bobble hat and a scarf in our living room.

And being taught to scream at the TV, "We hate Batty!"

Cos he obviously just hated anyone that played Rugby against Wales,

so that came from my mum.

And Dad played a lot of sport, so...

It was just sort of there.

And I am really, hugely, annoyingly competitive,

so I think they thought, if I played sport, it might tire me out

and might calm me down a little bit.

And also, I think, understanding that I needed to be fit and strong.

It wasn't necessarily about winning.

It was about being fit and healthy.

Hmm. When did you start the wheelchair racing then?

I started wheelchair racing at 12, and at that point

I played lots of different sport and was really rubbish at most of them.

But from the minute I tried a racing chair, that was it.

I didn't want to do any other sport.

And... Every decision I took from then,

it was still at the back of my mind, "This is what I want to do."

I went to Loughborough because of the sport.

It dictated relationships, wedding dates, birth of my daughter.

It was the most important thing in my life.

I never had to sacrifice anything. But my family did.

They put up with me never being there.

My sister based her wedding around my competition schedule.

She wanted to get married in 2000 and that was Sydney

and she knew I wasn't going to be there in the summer,

so she got married in February so I could be there.

Which is amazing because she didn't have to do that.

So my family tolerated an awful lot

from this huge drive I had to be an athlete.

You've brought some of your medals in. Can I have a look?

Then you can talk me through them.

Heavens above, there are a lot in here, aren't there?

I take them to schools. I think it's good for them to see them.

So this is Barcelona. That's my 400 medal.

Barcelona, very important year for you. You came back with four golds.

It was a big deal going to Barcelona.

I was world record holder for the four distances I competed over.

And I won four golds. But, um...

-Sydney.

-That was a rather good one again, wasn't it?

Yeah. I went back to four golds.

This one's actually slightly tarnished because personally,

I don't think they're meant to be locked away.

They're meant for people, if they want to hold them, or do whatever they want with.

-Can I hold one of them? Quite heavy, aren't they?

-They are.

-It's not real gold, is it?

-It's gold-plated.

-Is it?

-Yeah.

-Lovely, though. Really, really beautiful.

-And then my Athens.

100 metres from Athens.

Which... Actually, that's the prettiest ribbon.

I think the Barcelona ribbon...

That's how we got them, tied in a knot!

-I mean, you've only got three there and you've won 11.

-Yep.

You don't feel possessive about your medals?

-Some people won't even allow you to touch their medals.

-No.

I mean...winning the race was important.

These are lovely. These are the bits that are important to Mum and Dad

and my family and I wouldn't want to lose them,

but no, I don't feel that they have to be wrapped in cotton wool.

You married Ian in 1999.

Did you fit your wedding into competition dates

where it wouldn't affect either you or Ian, who's also an athlete.

Completely. Our wedding was choreographed to completely fit

within our competition schedule for that season.

We got married in May, so it was two weeks after the London marathon

and just before the start of the track season.

And then for our honeymoon, we went to Switzerland,

which was lovely, but we joined a Swiss national squad training camp.

So we thought that was perfectly fine, normal, acceptable.

I think my friends outside sport thought it was a little strange.

But, you know, it was important to have the timing right.

You've won a lot of accolades.

It's not just the gold medals and the world records

and the London marathon, first prizes,

it's also you were made an MBE

and then you were made an OBE and then you were made a Dame.

Yeah. And, um...that was...

You get a letter through the post saying,

"if the Queen would be so minded, would you be willing to accept?"

And I sort of read, "Dame Commander of the British Empire," and went...!

-So, it came out of the blue?

-Yep. Didn't expect it at all.

And, um...got to go to Buckingham Palace, er...

So my father, my sister, Ian, my husband.

And that was really, really nice.

Mum had died by then, but she would have been hugely proud

of me being Dame Tanni.

I'm going to take you back to Sydney Paralympics.

-What do you remember of this?

-Oh, the 100 metres.

I always was the slowest starter

and Cheri Blauwet in the outside lane had the most incredible start.

I remember not panicking and just thinking, "I have to get past her."

So in terms of me racing, that and Athens was my best 100 metres.

My 100 metres was always weak.

And not a huge amount of emotion just as I crossed the finish line

because I remember seeing Cheri go and just...

Almost like this impossible lead she had.

And then when you came back, a lot of public affection for you

and your profile is raised further still.

And you know what's coming, don't you? I can feel you sniggering.

This is Sports Personality of the Year.

"..who excelled in Sydney this year. Tanni Grey-Thompson."

APPLAUSE

Now, you see for this bit, where I'm just sitting there, looking,

sort of smiling, at this point, I realise I can't get on the stage.

Um...because there was no ramp. And, um...I kind of...

When they said, "Sydney," I kind of looked and I thought,

"What am I going to do?" So I just kind of had to sit there.

And it was a really strange... I'm kind of actually...

I'm smiling but I was a bit upset, actually,

and a bit frustrated that I couldn't get on the stage to get the award.

But actually, everything that happened afterwards was quite important.

You were the first paralympic athlete

to get a Sports Personality of the Year award.

-Denise Lewis was able to go up and collect her award.

-Yep.

And you're sitting there and...

Look here, when you're interviewed, again, you're off the dais here.

-It just looks awful, doesn't it?

-It does.

And it didn't seem that bad at the time, but it felt that

I just wasn't particularly included in anything that was happening.

It kind of kicked off sort of very quickly at the end of the show

when somebody very high up in the Beeb came and apologised.

And they'd had a massive number of complaints.

I think on the back of that, actually,

it changed the way the BBC used contributors,

it just thought about how it covered sport.

So much changed because I couldn't get on the stage.

So, you were glad there was no ramp?

In a bizarre way, yes.

Because it gave me a huge amount of publicity, it helped me in terms

of people getting to know me more as an athlete, seeing how I behave.

So in a very bizarre way, it kind of made my career.

Because virtually everywhere I go now, people will say,

"We've got a ramp." "OK, right, that's fine."

I don't mind being carried up the stairs,

but people do make a big effort.

Did that stimulate your desire to do something politically, I suppose,

to keep trying to change the system, to keep letting people know?

I think so. It's hard to know where that interest sort of started.

Because it was always sort of there in my life.

For most of my sports career,

it was about trying to make things better within sport.

And then around that time, I was also involved with

the implementation of the Disability Discrimination Act.

And that's sort of where I started thinking,

"OK, at some point outside sport, I need to do other things."

So you started to become much more politically active at least

in trying to campaign for better rights for disabled athletes.

And actually, to appear on political programmes, as well,

like Question Time.

Yeah. That's fairly terrifying.

It must be.

I was the one at that point who wasn't involved in politics.

So you always know they're going to be a bit nicer to you.

Um...but a lot of people watch it

and a lot of people have a view on it.

So it was a big deal to be on it.

"..Because race is such an emotive issue..."

I don't think I've watched it back since I did it.

Bizarrely, I now sit in the House of Lords with some of these people.

"For me, racism in any form

"or discrimination in a wider sense is absolutely abhorrent."

Yeah. They didn't give me any special favours because...

They just expect you to go out and do it.

SIAN CHUCKLES

"I never thought we'd get rid of the archaic system we had in place

"where it depended on what family you were born into.

"I think we've moved forward quite a bit.

"Not as far as I'd like to, but, er...although I was in school a long time ago,

"I learnt more about Marie Antoinette and Peter the Great

"than I did about the British political system.

"As soon as we can bring that into schools and encourage people

"to be able to fill in the forms and apply for those positions,

"the better off we'll be.

"We will get normal people in the House of Lords."

APPLAUSE

LAUGHTER

Do you know what, I never even vaguely remember that I said that.

"I'm not a normal person."

I think at the end there, I'm just going to play it back there,

I think in the end, you may have even said

that you don't intend going to the House of Lords.

-Shall we watch it again?

-"..The better off we'll be.

"And we will get normal people in the House of Lords."

-"Would you apply?"

-"No."

-"You wouldn't apply?"

-"I'm not a normal person."

LAUGHTER

"Would you apply?" "No, I'm not a normal person."

I can't even remember that I said that.

Well, there you go, that's...

It's come back to haunt you.

That is a very strange...

Yeah, that is a really weird place to kind of sit back

and listen to that, actually. Wow! Well, there you go.

It proves you should watch what you say because you never know what's going to come back!

-And bite you.

-Completely.

So, how did you get into the House of Lords? What was the process like?

Um...it's a very strange process.

I was nominated by the Department of Culture, Media and Sport and, um...

A whole pile of people were nominated and I got through

this very strange interview process which went on for about a year.

And then one night got an e-mail that just said, "You're in."

Even as I was going through it,

I didn't expect to get through it and end up being there.

And then when I got through, for me,

it's really important you take it seriously.

So I'm there pretty much four days a week. You've got to...

It's got to be like a job.

It's not something you can drift in and out of.

Do you remember when you were inaugurated

and how you felt on that day?

I remember being terrified. And being really nervous.

And then I got my gown caught in the front wheel! Oh!

-What's caught in the front wheel?

-The gown, the ermine gown.

So it just got tangled slightly in my front wheel.

And, um...you sit there and you swear an oath of allegiance.

And, um...it's terrifying.

"I, Tanni, Baroness Grey-Thompson, do swear by Almighty God

"that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth..."

I remember my heart racing and feeling more nervous

than when I was on a track in any of the competitions I competed in.

And I wanted to do my oath in Welsh. I wasn't allowed a Welsh title.

SHE SPEAKS WELSH

This is what I was scared of doing. My Welsh is dreadful.

I didn't know there were words for baroness, oath, allegiance.

Erm, and I remember, just really...

I think you can see the relief on my face when I get through it.

And the clerk, here, he's Welsh-speaking and he took me

aside before we went in and said,

"The English-speaking peers won't have a clue what you're saying,

"and the Welsh-speaking peers will be so grateful you've done it,

"you can pronounce every word wrong and it'll be fine!"

And then I went in and did it.

So why aren't you Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson

of Heath, in Cardiff?

Well, the chap who was in charge of titles at the time was slightly

grumpy about the geographical designation.

And because I don't live in Cardiff any more,

he said, "It has to be where you live."

There's all this stuff that's thrown at you,

and you don't know the rules.

I didn't grow up in a family who knew who Garter King of Arms

was or any of that stuff,

so I sat there filling in all these forms and just went, "OK."

And actually, I could have completely demanded that

I had a Welsh title.

For me, that was why it was important that

I had a link back to being Welsh, that I did my oath in Welsh.

Cos you were living in County Durham at the time, of course,

Ian, your husband and your daughter are still there.

So you're Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson of...

-Eaglescliffe, in the county of Durham.

-In the county of Durham.

Has Carys been to see you, your daughter, in the House of Lords?

Carys comes in. She has sat through quite a few debates.

We were in a very long welfare reform debate

and she was sat at the back.

I was following the debate on Twitter and somebody said,

"I can't believe somebody has brought a child into welfare reform.

"What kind of cruel mother's that?"

And in a break they saw me talk to her, "Oh, sorry."

-"That cruel mother."

-"That cruel mother."

Um, she comes in a reasonable amount.

I think it's important cos I'm away from her for four days a week,

so I'm choosing to be away from her, which sounds harsh,

but it's important for her to understand what I'm trying to do.

Because it's not easy on her that I'm not there all the time.

And I just buy lots of cakes in the tea room and she's fine.

At the moment.

How easy is it for you?

It's hard being away from her cos I miss lots of...

It's the little things you miss - the drive home from school,

sitting having a meal together, the big stuff.

I try very hard to be at the Christmas plays,

a lot of the sports competitions - there is stuff I can't get to.

But I try to be really honest with her about what I can be at

and what I can't be at.

Ian's great cos he goes to everything.

I feel guilty.

I feel guilty when I'm at home and thinking about work.

I feel guilty when I'm at work and thinking about her.

She doesn't know any other life, so hopefully, you know,

she just is OK with it.

I suppose I'm asking, are you OK with it?

Erm...

Most of the time I'm OK with it.

Most of the time, because I do disability rights,

I do legal aid, it's about a lot of vulnerable people who

can't help themselves, so I've got a big enough voice to speak.

It's not easy but, but...

It's a decision I've made.

And talking of big enough voices to be heard, there was a very big voice

who's very influential to you, right at the very beginning of your life.

And to your father as well. This is Baroness Warnock.

Who all those years ago, in the '70s, was fighting...

'What shocked us at the time...'

Actually, sitting in the chamber with her and saying to her,

"Because of you," so I get to call her my noble friend

Baroness Warnock, "Because of you, I'm here."

It was a big deal for me emotionally.

She did just look at me like I was slightly strange.

I was kind of hoping for this big bonding moment which didn't happen.

'..Cannot be ignored.'

It made me realise the power of the Lords to do different things,

and the opportunity I have to change things for other people.

It's very weird speaking in the chamber, still.

It takes a long time to get used to it.

But for me, it was really important to say thank you to her,

because without her I wouldn't have been there.

And I suppose you were saying thank you

on behalf of your father as well, weren't you?

Yeah, I mean...

Dad saw me go into the House of Lords and then he died soon after.

I wish he could have seen that, cos that would have been cool.

But Dad was amazing and he used everything he could to help me.

And that shaped so much of my life.

But it's even...

When I got into the Lords and I rang him and said, "Dad, I'm in."

He just said, "Before you get too excited,

"make sure they've got the right Tanni Grey-Thompson."

What can you do to keep your family happy?

Dad would have been proud of that. Definitely would have been proud of that.

It must have been a very, very big moment.

And...I wonder where it's going now really, for you.

Where do you see your life in the future?

There's lots I'd like to do on disability rights legislation.

The built environment is still not right.

I'd love to make it a criminal offence for someone without

a blue badge to park in blue badge space.

That might never happen, but it's on my list.

Right now, I'm happier as a parliamentarian than I think

I was in sport, because I kind of feel like the stuff that I'm

doing, some of it's good, some of it's not -

more of it's good than not.

So I kind of see that I'd like to keep trying to change things and

keep being that person who keeps saying, "No, it's not good enough."

In your first book, you asked yourself the question,

"What have I achieved?"

What do you think the answer to that would be?

Erm, not enough.

I'm never happy.

As an athlete I was all right.

By the time I got to the end there was nothing else I could do,

so I'd like to be remembered as a good athlete.

And I'd like to be remembered as somebody who changed

things for the better.

But, eh, yeah, I'm never very happy.

I always think I can do better, so I want to be better than I am now.

Why?

I think it's the expectation that my parents had for me.

As much as they gave me loads of confidence to deal with

the things I was doing, they expected a lot from me.

They expected me to be good and disciplined and to win.

Or to be the best that I could on the day and hopefully win.

And I think they would have expected me to be a good parliamentarian,

so even though they're not around any more,

I feel they're still there somewhere.

You know, I can hear my dad say,

"Is that really the best you could do? Are you sure?"

So, there's this...

I still feel this huge pressure to

live up to everything Mum and Dad gave me.

It's hard, but most of time, it's a really,

really positive thing to have in my life.

They would be really proud of you.

I hope so!

Erm, they never said but I'd

like to think that they would be.

I'm so glad Dad saw me go into the House of Lords.

For me, that was amazing.

But, you know, my father had a lot of faith

and he always said he'd be watching.

That's one of the last things he said to me, "I'll be watching you."

And, eh...

Yeah, he probably is.

Looking down on you and incredibly proud

-of what you've achieved so far.

-Yeah, I hope he is proud.

I hope he's proud of the things I haven't yet done.

Cos that's what he'd expect of me as well.