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'Welcome to the street of choices. | 0:00:03 | 0:00:05 | |
'How much to spend, how much to tax? | 0:00:05 | 0:00:09 | |
'For years, the occupants of Number 10 have claimed they could spend more without taxing us more... | 0:00:09 | 0:00:14 | |
'..leaving the chancellors in Number 11 to balance the books. | 0:00:16 | 0:00:20 | |
'All too often, they've failed. | 0:00:23 | 0:00:25 | |
'Now, we're living with the consequences. | 0:00:25 | 0:00:27 | |
'In this series, I've been finding out how we got here, | 0:00:29 | 0:00:33 | |
'and examining the demands on the people who have to make the nation's sums add up. | 0:00:33 | 0:00:38 | |
'Right now, the economy is facing the tightest squeeze in decades, and it hurts.' | 0:00:41 | 0:00:47 | |
We put pressure on the Chancellor to spend more and more, | 0:00:50 | 0:00:54 | |
and then we're incredibly resistant to paying more tax to pay for it. | 0:00:54 | 0:00:58 | |
'So why can't politicians protect the have-nots by taxing the have-lots? | 0:00:58 | 0:01:03 | |
'It may not be that simple.' | 0:01:03 | 0:01:06 | |
Taxes are, for the very rich, effectively voluntary. | 0:01:06 | 0:01:10 | |
I think taxes are totally voluntary for the very rich. | 0:01:10 | 0:01:13 | |
'What about those who are not rich, but are certainly better off?' | 0:01:13 | 0:01:17 | |
It's not that I don't want to pay any more, but I feel like we haven't got any more to give. | 0:01:17 | 0:01:23 | |
'And why can't they simplify the bewilderingly complex taxes on what we spend and buy?' | 0:01:23 | 0:01:30 | |
That one doesn't pay, that one does pay VAT. | 0:01:30 | 0:01:32 | |
-Why? -Don't ask me, I'm not the Chancellor! | 0:01:32 | 0:01:35 | |
Why don't chancellors tax us enough to pay for all the things that we say we want them to spend money on? | 0:01:39 | 0:01:46 | |
Why do the nation's sums fail to add up so often over our history? | 0:01:46 | 0:01:52 | |
Tonight, the trouble with tax on Your Money And How They Spend It. | 0:01:52 | 0:01:59 | |
'Let's begin at the beginning. What is tax? | 0:02:09 | 0:02:13 | |
'We know what it is, don't we? | 0:02:13 | 0:02:15 | |
'It's the Government chasing us for our hard-earned cash.' | 0:02:15 | 0:02:19 | |
-Are you a taxpayer? -Er, I am, yeah. -Could I have £5, because somebody over here needs it more than you. | 0:02:20 | 0:02:25 | |
I'm just trying to get money off taxpayers to give to other people. | 0:02:25 | 0:02:29 | |
Are you happy to pay a bit more? | 0:02:29 | 0:02:32 | |
-You probably pay your taxes already, don't you? -Yeah, I do, mate. -Too much? -Too much. | 0:02:32 | 0:02:36 | |
I wondered if I could have some of your money to give to someone who needs it. | 0:02:36 | 0:02:40 | |
-I need it meself. -You need it yourself?! -Yeah. | 0:02:40 | 0:02:43 | |
-Where am I going to get it from, then? -I don't know. | 0:02:43 | 0:02:46 | |
'Manchester's full of good people, | 0:02:46 | 0:02:48 | |
'but giving money to total strangers is perhaps asking a bit much. | 0:02:48 | 0:02:53 | |
'But that's what politicians do.' | 0:02:53 | 0:02:55 | |
There's somebody in need over there. Could I have £5 to give it to them? | 0:02:55 | 0:02:58 | |
-I've just got enough for meself. -You don't want to give it to the lady over there? | 0:02:58 | 0:03:02 | |
-I can't afford to. -She needs it, she's got children. -I need it. | 0:03:02 | 0:03:06 | |
'And now politicians want us to fork out even more | 0:03:08 | 0:03:11 | |
'to pay for the country's huge liabilities.' | 0:03:11 | 0:03:14 | |
I just need a bit of extra money, is that all right? | 0:03:15 | 0:03:18 | |
It's very expensive, the police, the schools, | 0:03:18 | 0:03:21 | |
hospitals, there's a war on, so have you got a fiver each, maybe? | 0:03:21 | 0:03:25 | |
-Governments generally just waste it, don't they? -Yeah. | 0:03:25 | 0:03:28 | |
They just fritter it away on wars | 0:03:28 | 0:03:30 | |
and giving it away to idlers who don't work. | 0:03:30 | 0:03:33 | |
-Who here can I get to give me some more money, do you think? -People who have more money? | 0:03:33 | 0:03:38 | |
Who are they? What do I have to look for, people in suits? | 0:03:38 | 0:03:41 | |
-Sir, I'm very sorry to stop you in your lunch break. -Not at all. -We... | 0:03:41 | 0:03:45 | |
-Have you got your wallet on you? -Yes. | 0:03:45 | 0:03:48 | |
There are quite a lot of people in need and a lot of public services to be paid for | 0:03:48 | 0:03:52 | |
and I wonder if you could give me some more money for them. | 0:03:52 | 0:03:55 | |
-I'm afraid I can't afford it. -No? -I think that's a familiar story that you'll be hearing. | 0:03:55 | 0:04:00 | |
I don't seem to be able to persuade anybody to part with | 0:04:04 | 0:04:07 | |
their hard-earned cash so I can hand it on to somebody else. | 0:04:07 | 0:04:11 | |
Which is a bit of a problem for governments, really, because | 0:04:11 | 0:04:14 | |
taxes are the way that they take from one and give it to another. | 0:04:14 | 0:04:18 | |
Maybe even back to us, when we're unable to work or sick or old. | 0:04:18 | 0:04:23 | |
And if a nice guy like me can't do it | 0:04:23 | 0:04:26 | |
imagine how much harder it is for politicians. | 0:04:26 | 0:04:30 | |
Well, the public want to spend money on very worthwhile causes | 0:04:30 | 0:04:33 | |
that either affect them or other people. | 0:04:33 | 0:04:35 | |
The public also don't want to pay for it. They believe the Government can find other people to pay. | 0:04:35 | 0:04:40 | |
Talking about tax in politics is like talking about sex in public. | 0:04:40 | 0:04:44 | |
Everybody knows it's around, | 0:04:44 | 0:04:46 | |
but they don't like to talk about it too much. | 0:04:46 | 0:04:48 | |
And I think people tend to be so cynical now about what Government does | 0:04:48 | 0:04:52 | |
it's always going to be a difficult conversation, | 0:04:52 | 0:04:56 | |
but perhaps this is a good time to have it. | 0:04:56 | 0:04:58 | |
'A good time, because we're living way beyond our means. | 0:05:01 | 0:05:03 | |
'Last year the Government raised £549 billion in taxes. | 0:05:03 | 0:05:09 | |
'A huge amount, but much less than they were spending. | 0:05:09 | 0:05:13 | |
'Stimulating growth is one way to close the gap, | 0:05:13 | 0:05:16 | |
'but how else could they raise more to make the books add up?' | 0:05:16 | 0:05:20 | |
Remember that number? | 0:05:20 | 0:05:21 | |
£549 billion, the amount raised in taxes last year. | 0:05:21 | 0:05:27 | |
Well, three big taxes raised more than 60% of that. | 0:05:27 | 0:05:31 | |
The big daddy is income tax. It generated £152 billion. | 0:05:31 | 0:05:35 | |
But as politicians have been afraid to put the rate up for many years | 0:05:35 | 0:05:39 | |
they've looked instead to another tax on our incomes. | 0:05:39 | 0:05:42 | |
It's not called a tax, it's National Insurance, | 0:05:42 | 0:05:45 | |
and it raised more than most people think, £97 billion last year. | 0:05:45 | 0:05:50 | |
The amount raised by VAT, value added tax, | 0:05:50 | 0:05:53 | |
has doubled in the past 30 years. | 0:05:53 | 0:05:55 | |
It raised £86 billion. Since then, of course, the rate's gone up. | 0:05:55 | 0:06:01 | |
No other taxes raise anything like as much as those three. | 0:06:01 | 0:06:04 | |
Businesses pay in all sorts of different ways. | 0:06:04 | 0:06:07 | |
They pick up more than half the bill in National Insurance, | 0:06:07 | 0:06:10 | |
they pay rates and other taxes, and then there's corporation tax, | 0:06:10 | 0:06:13 | |
which generated £43 billion last year. | 0:06:13 | 0:06:17 | |
Next comes the little guys, | 0:06:17 | 0:06:19 | |
although it probably doesn't feel like that a lot of the time. | 0:06:19 | 0:06:22 | |
Add fuel tax, for example, to the so-called "sin taxes" on booze and fags. | 0:06:22 | 0:06:27 | |
Last year the Government raised £46 billion. | 0:06:27 | 0:06:30 | |
Council tax, which a lot of people don't like, | 0:06:30 | 0:06:33 | |
added just £26 billion to the nation's coffers last year. | 0:06:33 | 0:06:37 | |
Then there are all those little ones that we like to curse. | 0:06:37 | 0:06:40 | |
Stamp duty when you buy a house, £6 billion, | 0:06:40 | 0:06:44 | |
inheritance tax, £3 billion, | 0:06:44 | 0:06:45 | |
and you can't even fly away from the problem | 0:06:45 | 0:06:48 | |
without paying tax on that plane ticket. | 0:06:48 | 0:06:51 | |
£2 billion. | 0:06:51 | 0:06:53 | |
So, short of inventing an entirely new tax, there are your options. | 0:06:53 | 0:06:58 | |
'Instead of deciding which tax should go up, many start by saying, "Who should pay more tax?" | 0:07:03 | 0:07:09 | |
'Their answer's simple - the rich. Like this man.' | 0:07:09 | 0:07:13 | |
OK, so we're ready for departure if you are. | 0:07:15 | 0:07:18 | |
I'm happy, yeah, thank you very much. | 0:07:18 | 0:07:20 | |
'John Caudwell has all the trappings of enormous wealth. | 0:07:22 | 0:07:26 | |
'A helicopter, a yacht and a vast mansion.' | 0:07:29 | 0:07:33 | |
-That feel good, looking at that? -It's a fabulous house, isn't it? | 0:07:33 | 0:07:36 | |
-Lovely. -I've always loved Jacobean architecture, Elizabethan, Jacobean. | 0:07:36 | 0:07:41 | |
'Caudwell's a great British success story. | 0:07:43 | 0:07:46 | |
'His Phones4U mobile-phone business created thousands of jobs | 0:07:46 | 0:07:50 | |
'and, when he sold it, netted him £1.5 billion.' | 0:07:50 | 0:07:55 | |
How does a lad from a terraced house with an outdoor loo here in Stoke | 0:07:55 | 0:07:59 | |
feel about living in that 50-room mansion a few minutes away? | 0:07:59 | 0:08:04 | |
Well, of course I feel, er...lucky. And privileged. | 0:08:04 | 0:08:08 | |
But I don't sort of look at it and it takes me breath away, | 0:08:08 | 0:08:12 | |
because it sort of took me 35 years to get there! | 0:08:12 | 0:08:14 | |
'In some countries, the super-rich have asked to pay more tax | 0:08:19 | 0:08:24 | |
'to help clear their countries' debts. | 0:08:24 | 0:08:26 | |
'Here, billionaire like John Caudwell aren't keen to follow suit.' | 0:08:26 | 0:08:30 | |
How much can you tax the rich before they vote with their feet | 0:08:33 | 0:08:36 | |
and decide to leave the country, | 0:08:36 | 0:08:38 | |
and then the revenue to the Exchequer is reduced rather than increased? | 0:08:38 | 0:08:42 | |
And have you got a sense of how much tax you've been paying in the last few years? | 0:08:42 | 0:08:46 | |
I've got a very great sense of the tax I've paid | 0:08:46 | 0:08:49 | |
-but I don't know whether you could even stand the number. -Go on. | 0:08:49 | 0:08:53 | |
Well, if we go from what I've already paid since selling the business, | 0:08:53 | 0:08:58 | |
and then include what is due and going to be paid, | 0:08:58 | 0:09:02 | |
we are definitely talking of around about £280 million. | 0:09:02 | 0:09:09 | |
'Caudwell's proud that that sum could pay to build 14 brand-new secondary schools. | 0:09:10 | 0:09:15 | |
'But he doesn't like paying his tax one little bit.' | 0:09:15 | 0:09:18 | |
You choose to give quite a bit of cash now to charities. | 0:09:20 | 0:09:24 | |
Why do you feel better about doing that than paying your tax bill? | 0:09:24 | 0:09:28 | |
HE LAUGHS Do you know, there's no comparison! I'm sorry... | 0:09:30 | 0:09:34 | |
It take me breath away, to be honest, because...we run our charity, | 0:09:34 | 0:09:39 | |
and all my charitable works, like a business, | 0:09:39 | 0:09:42 | |
and we make every last penny really count. | 0:09:42 | 0:09:45 | |
That is incredibly satisfying | 0:09:45 | 0:09:47 | |
and, because I do it voluntarily, it's even more satisfying. | 0:09:47 | 0:09:50 | |
What is satisfying about giving 50% of your income to the Government | 0:09:50 | 0:09:55 | |
and then having it frittered away in many areas that you strongly disagree with? | 0:09:55 | 0:10:00 | |
Few people like taxes, no matter how rich they are. | 0:10:03 | 0:10:07 | |
Parliament echoes to the sound of past struggles | 0:10:07 | 0:10:10 | |
to prise more from the wallets of the wealthy. | 0:10:10 | 0:10:13 | |
The biggest tax of them all | 0:10:13 | 0:10:15 | |
was invented specifically to target them. | 0:10:15 | 0:10:18 | |
200 years ago, like today, Britain faced a mighty big bill. | 0:10:19 | 0:10:24 | |
The Prime Minister, William Pitt, decided the rich should stump up. | 0:10:24 | 0:10:29 | |
You can blame him for income tax. | 0:10:29 | 0:10:32 | |
Its troubled history starts here, in the Parliamentary Archive. | 0:10:32 | 0:10:36 | |
So...here we are, and the original income tax is right here. | 0:10:36 | 0:10:41 | |
This is the original Income Tax Act of 1799. | 0:10:41 | 0:10:44 | |
So if I bin that, I won't have to pay any tax? | 0:10:44 | 0:10:47 | |
I fear it doesn't quite work like that. | 0:10:47 | 0:10:49 | |
-If I just take it off the shelf. -You can live in hope, can't you? -Indeed. | 0:10:49 | 0:10:53 | |
-This is it? This is what they wrote? -This is the original. | 0:10:53 | 0:10:56 | |
As written out in Parliament while the bill was being passed. | 0:10:56 | 0:11:00 | |
'When first introduced, income tax was solely for the wealthy. | 0:11:00 | 0:11:05 | |
'Those earning over £200 a year would pay 10% of their earnings.' | 0:11:05 | 0:11:10 | |
"Most Gracious Sovereign, we, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, | 0:11:11 | 0:11:16 | |
"the Commons of great Britain, in Parliament assembled, | 0:11:16 | 0:11:19 | |
"for granting to His Majesty an aid and contribution for the prosecution of the war." | 0:11:19 | 0:11:25 | |
This great act was introduced to deal with what's now a familiar problem, | 0:11:25 | 0:11:30 | |
a whopping great budget deficit. | 0:11:30 | 0:11:32 | |
But in particular to deal with the costs of war. | 0:11:32 | 0:11:34 | |
And because the idea was so unpopular, | 0:11:34 | 0:11:37 | |
then as well as now, the writers of this document | 0:11:37 | 0:11:40 | |
convinced themselves that it would be temporary. | 0:11:40 | 0:11:43 | |
'But of course income tax is still with us. | 0:11:43 | 0:11:47 | |
'Over the years, more and more people have had to pay it | 0:11:47 | 0:11:50 | |
'and time and again when things got tough | 0:11:50 | 0:11:53 | |
'politicians turned to the wealthy.' | 0:11:53 | 0:11:56 | |
Back in 1973, hammering the rich was thought to be a sure-fire vote winner. | 0:11:59 | 0:12:05 | |
Just before an election, Labour's Shadow Chancellor made this prediction. | 0:12:05 | 0:12:10 | |
I warn you, | 0:12:10 | 0:12:12 | |
there are going to be howls of anguish | 0:12:12 | 0:12:15 | |
from the 80,000 rich people, | 0:12:15 | 0:12:18 | |
people who are rich enough to pay over 75% on the last slice of their income. | 0:12:18 | 0:12:22 | |
Denis Healey boasted that he'd squeeze the rich till the pips squeaked. | 0:12:22 | 0:12:27 | |
At the Treasury, he went further, | 0:12:27 | 0:12:30 | |
raising the top rate of income tax to 83%. | 0:12:30 | 0:12:33 | |
It was in fact the Stones, not the pips, that did the squeaking. | 0:12:38 | 0:12:42 | |
They and other celebrities complained bitterly. | 0:12:45 | 0:12:49 | |
Basically we have to give all the money to the Revenue, bless them. | 0:12:49 | 0:12:53 | |
They should be promoting the tour, | 0:12:53 | 0:12:55 | |
I mean, they're doing very well out of it. | 0:12:55 | 0:12:57 | |
The Rolling Stones could avoid their soaring tax bill | 0:12:59 | 0:13:02 | |
by rolling out of Britain, along with Rod Stewart, Michael Caine | 0:13:02 | 0:13:05 | |
and countless other wealthy people, | 0:13:05 | 0:13:08 | |
leaving Labour to be branded the high-tax party. | 0:13:08 | 0:13:12 | |
By the end of the '70s, a new Tory government came to office, | 0:13:17 | 0:13:21 | |
promising lower income tax for all. | 0:13:21 | 0:13:23 | |
The basic rate was cut to 30%, the top rate to 60%. | 0:13:23 | 0:13:28 | |
But it was the next dramatic step which changed everything. | 0:13:28 | 0:13:32 | |
One day, one speech, one Budget transformed the politics of tax. | 0:13:34 | 0:13:39 | |
It was 15th March 1988 | 0:13:39 | 0:13:42 | |
when Margaret Thatcher's Chancellor, Nigel Lawson, | 0:13:42 | 0:13:45 | |
cut not just the basic rate of income tax, but slashed the top rate too. | 0:13:45 | 0:13:49 | |
There were cries of "Shame!" from within the Commons. | 0:13:49 | 0:13:53 | |
But the echoes died remarkably quickly. | 0:13:53 | 0:13:56 | |
'A reduction in the top rates of income tax can, over time, | 0:13:59 | 0:14:03 | |
'result in a higher and not a lower yield to the Exchequer.' | 0:14:03 | 0:14:08 | |
We had a system of taxation that was a result of Labour governments | 0:14:08 | 0:14:11 | |
putting up the top rates of income tax, and Conservative governments | 0:14:11 | 0:14:16 | |
not reducing them again, | 0:14:16 | 0:14:18 | |
so we had an absurdly high top rate of income tax | 0:14:18 | 0:14:21 | |
which was having very great ill effects. | 0:14:21 | 0:14:24 | |
'Excessive rates of income tax destroy enterprise, | 0:14:26 | 0:14:30 | |
'encourage avoidance and drive talent to more hospitable shores overseas.' | 0:14:30 | 0:14:37 | |
'I propose to abolish all the higher rates of income tax above 40%. | 0:14:37 | 0:14:43 | |
CHEERING AND JEERING | 0:14:43 | 0:14:46 | |
There was uproar in the House. It was quite extraordinary. | 0:14:46 | 0:14:49 | |
It was in fact...the only Budget there's ever been in which | 0:14:49 | 0:14:54 | |
the House of Commons...the sitting had to be suspended. | 0:14:54 | 0:14:58 | |
-SHOUTING This major reform... -Order! Order! | 0:14:58 | 0:15:03 | |
-SHOUTING CONTINUES -ORDER! | 0:15:03 | 0:15:06 | |
Order! Sitting suspended for ten minutes! | 0:15:06 | 0:15:10 | |
SHOUTING CONTINUES, THEN FADES DOOR SLAMS | 0:15:10 | 0:15:12 | |
'Outrage would soon turn into acceptance. | 0:15:14 | 0:15:18 | |
'The new lower rates of income tax became politically untouchable. | 0:15:18 | 0:15:23 | |
'A decade later, New Labour and Tony Blair | 0:15:23 | 0:15:26 | |
'pledged not to raise income tax, even for the rich.' | 0:15:26 | 0:15:30 | |
'If we had not capped the top rate,' | 0:15:30 | 0:15:33 | |
people would've said, you know, | 0:15:33 | 0:15:35 | |
"This increase in taxation is coming our way, | 0:15:35 | 0:15:38 | |
"gradually, step-by-step." It wouldn't end | 0:15:38 | 0:15:41 | |
at the relatively very rich, it would start encroaching, | 0:15:41 | 0:15:45 | |
you know, on the not-so-rich and the people who want more. | 0:15:45 | 0:15:49 | |
That in short was the dilemma | 0:15:54 | 0:15:56 | |
which the last Labour Government wrestled with. | 0:15:56 | 0:15:59 | |
How do you target the rich to pay more tax | 0:15:59 | 0:16:01 | |
without alienating the people who aspire to be rich one day | 0:16:01 | 0:16:05 | |
or indeed everybody else who fears that you might come for them next? | 0:16:05 | 0:16:10 | |
In short, how exactly do you decide who are the rich? | 0:16:10 | 0:16:15 | |
'It's race day at Newbury in Berkshire, | 0:16:20 | 0:16:24 | |
'home, surely, to one or two rich people.' | 0:16:24 | 0:16:27 | |
Come on! | 0:16:29 | 0:16:31 | |
'I'm certainly not making MY fortune, but surely this is just the place | 0:16:40 | 0:16:46 | |
'to find the people who we all agree should pay more tax. Don't we?' | 0:16:46 | 0:16:50 | |
Where are the rich? Who are the rich? | 0:16:53 | 0:16:55 | |
-I wish I knew, but it's not me. -It's not you? -No! | 0:16:55 | 0:16:59 | |
I have come in search of the rich. Who are the rich? Is it you? | 0:16:59 | 0:17:04 | |
-No chance. -Is it him? -It's not. | 0:17:04 | 0:17:06 | |
-Who are the rich? -Yeah. | 0:17:06 | 0:17:08 | |
The blokes over in those boxes? | 0:17:08 | 0:17:10 | |
-I would imagine so, yeah. They've got a nice life, haven't they? -Yeah. | 0:17:10 | 0:17:14 | |
-Who are the rich? -Not us. LAUGHTER | 0:17:14 | 0:17:17 | |
-No? -Not this evening. -And we won't be after this is finished. -Yeah? | 0:17:17 | 0:17:21 | |
No, by the rich, you mean the very rich, that's what it means. Not the middle people like us. | 0:17:21 | 0:17:26 | |
'No luck, then, in finding people who think THEY are rich. | 0:17:28 | 0:17:31 | |
'So let's try another tack. On a range of pay scales, | 0:17:31 | 0:17:35 | |
'from about 20 grand to half-a-million-plus, | 0:17:35 | 0:17:37 | |
'where does being rich begin?' | 0:17:37 | 0:17:40 | |
Where on here would you instinctively think rich begins? | 0:17:40 | 0:17:44 | |
-There? -Definitely. | 0:17:46 | 0:17:48 | |
Where do you think the rich starts, then? Is it that one or there? | 0:17:48 | 0:17:52 | |
-Round here. -About there? -Round here. -So I guess you're the top bit. | 0:17:52 | 0:17:56 | |
-Where do I come in? -I think you must be here. | 0:17:56 | 0:17:59 | |
-I can... -Judging by the BBC thing, I guess you're here. | 0:17:59 | 0:18:02 | |
You are absolutely right, I am on this sheet(!) | 0:18:02 | 0:18:06 | |
Thank you very much indeed! | 0:18:06 | 0:18:07 | |
I think rich, I hate to tell you, but I think it begins round about here. | 0:18:07 | 0:18:12 | |
-119,000 a year? -Yeah. | 0:18:12 | 0:18:14 | |
-There. -119,000? That's rich. -Yeah. | 0:18:14 | 0:18:18 | |
'So, some agreement about who the rich are, | 0:18:18 | 0:18:21 | |
'but how many people ARE that well-paid?' | 0:18:21 | 0:18:24 | |
-How many people earn that sort of money? -Oh, not many, not many. | 0:18:24 | 0:18:28 | |
-About how many? -Um... Oh! About 20%. | 0:18:28 | 0:18:32 | |
-20% earn more than 120,000? -Yeah. | 0:18:32 | 0:18:35 | |
-I would say 10. -10%? | 0:18:35 | 0:18:37 | |
-25% of the country earn more than 119,000? -Yeah. | 0:18:37 | 0:18:40 | |
-Shall I tell you the answer? -Go on, then. | 0:18:40 | 0:18:42 | |
-1%. -Oh, is that right?! | 0:18:42 | 0:18:44 | |
-Only 1? -Only 1%? -Is that really? | 0:18:44 | 0:18:46 | |
-1% of the country. -Crikey! | 0:18:46 | 0:18:48 | |
-Is it? -What about football players? -There are not many, are there? | 0:18:48 | 0:18:52 | |
We're the lucky ones, then, aren't we? LAUGHTER | 0:18:52 | 0:18:54 | |
-Mind you, we blooming well work for it. -Yeah. | 0:18:54 | 0:18:57 | |
So our perspective is all wrong. | 0:18:57 | 0:18:59 | |
'Having the wrong perspective has real political impact. | 0:19:01 | 0:19:04 | |
'When we tell politicians to tax the rich, | 0:19:04 | 0:19:07 | |
'we mean other people, never us, | 0:19:07 | 0:19:09 | |
'and we overestimate how many there really are.' | 0:19:09 | 0:19:13 | |
There aren't enough rich | 0:19:14 | 0:19:16 | |
to fund the sorts of expenditures that need to be funded. | 0:19:16 | 0:19:21 | |
I mean, I... I'm not poor, but I don't regard myself as rich. | 0:19:21 | 0:19:27 | |
I regard Russian oligarchs as rich. | 0:19:27 | 0:19:30 | |
Everybody has their own idea of who the rich are | 0:19:30 | 0:19:33 | |
and they're always someone else. | 0:19:33 | 0:19:35 | |
-And it's them that should pay rather than us? -It's them that should pay. | 0:19:35 | 0:19:39 | |
'At Westminster, politicians are tempted | 0:19:41 | 0:19:44 | |
'to pander to voters' perceptions of who can afford to pay more tax, | 0:19:44 | 0:19:49 | |
'whilst also having to confront reality. | 0:19:49 | 0:19:53 | |
'Let's take a look at who pays what when it comes to income tax.' | 0:19:53 | 0:19:57 | |
This is the total amount raised in income tax last year. | 0:19:57 | 0:20:01 | |
So how much do those on the lowest 10% of incomes contribute to that? | 0:20:01 | 0:20:06 | |
That's people whose incomes are up to about £10,000 a year. | 0:20:06 | 0:20:10 | |
That will include part-time workers, some pensioners and students. | 0:20:10 | 0:20:14 | |
That group contributes just 0.5% of the income-tax total. | 0:20:14 | 0:20:21 | |
In fact, the first 90% of income-tax earners | 0:20:21 | 0:20:24 | |
contribute less than half of all the income tax collected. | 0:20:24 | 0:20:29 | |
This means all of the rest is paid for by the top 10% of earners alone. | 0:20:29 | 0:20:35 | |
That's those earning more than £48,000 a year. | 0:20:35 | 0:20:38 | |
People like police inspectors and some senior teachers and the like. | 0:20:38 | 0:20:42 | |
What about the richest 1%? | 0:20:42 | 0:20:44 | |
Now, if you include not just salary, | 0:20:44 | 0:20:47 | |
but income from savings and shares and other assets, | 0:20:47 | 0:20:50 | |
we're talking of people earning more than £153,000 a year, | 0:20:50 | 0:20:54 | |
and that top 1%, just over 300,000 people, | 0:20:54 | 0:20:58 | |
pays around 27% of all the income tax. | 0:20:58 | 0:21:03 | |
That is a consequence of growing inequality. | 0:21:03 | 0:21:07 | |
As the rich earn more and more, | 0:21:07 | 0:21:10 | |
they pay a greater and greater share of income tax. | 0:21:10 | 0:21:13 | |
More than enough, they may think, but others say not nearly enough. | 0:21:13 | 0:21:18 | |
'After 30 years in which income tax rates only went down, | 0:21:20 | 0:21:24 | |
'it's not been easy for politicians, whatever their instincts, | 0:21:24 | 0:21:28 | |
'to put it back up. It wasn't until the global financial crisis of 2008 | 0:21:28 | 0:21:33 | |
'that raising the top rate of tax got back on the agenda.' | 0:21:33 | 0:21:37 | |
Even when the banks were crashing round our ears, | 0:21:38 | 0:21:41 | |
when the taxpayer was shelling out for them, | 0:21:41 | 0:21:44 | |
when anger about bankers' bonuses was at its height, | 0:21:44 | 0:21:48 | |
a Labour Government, led by Gordon Brown, | 0:21:48 | 0:21:51 | |
two decades after Nigel Lawson's budget, | 0:21:51 | 0:21:54 | |
still agonised about whether it could get away with increasing the top rate of tax. | 0:21:54 | 0:21:59 | |
But the crash had blown a vast hole in public finances, | 0:21:59 | 0:22:04 | |
which had to be plugged with tax rises and spending cuts. | 0:22:04 | 0:22:08 | |
Anyone earning over £150,000 a year | 0:22:08 | 0:22:11 | |
would pay the new top rate of income tax. | 0:22:11 | 0:22:15 | |
In order to help pay for additional support for people now, | 0:22:15 | 0:22:19 | |
and to invest in the future, I've decided that the new rate will be 50% | 0:22:19 | 0:22:23 | |
and will come in from April next year, a year earlier. | 0:22:23 | 0:22:26 | |
'The Chancellor considered promising that it was a temporary tax rise, | 0:22:28 | 0:22:32 | |
'but that's what they'd said when income tax began. | 0:22:32 | 0:22:35 | |
'Ever since, there have been loud calls to scrap the 50p rate.' | 0:22:35 | 0:22:40 | |
The debate about how much to tax the incomes of the rich | 0:22:40 | 0:22:44 | |
is now not really focused on how much money can be raised, | 0:22:44 | 0:22:48 | |
but what it says about Britain. | 0:22:48 | 0:22:50 | |
Those who want to keep the top rate of tax at 50p argue, | 0:22:50 | 0:22:54 | |
"It's a symbol of fairness, of shared pain in difficult times." | 0:22:54 | 0:22:58 | |
Those who want to see it gone say that the rate acts | 0:22:58 | 0:23:01 | |
as a kind of warning sign over Britain, over London, | 0:23:01 | 0:23:04 | |
saying to the wealthy, "You're not welcome here." | 0:23:04 | 0:23:08 | |
That's a fear shared even by the man who introduced that new top rate | 0:23:08 | 0:23:13 | |
and he fears something else too - | 0:23:13 | 0:23:15 | |
that it suggests that Labour is still a high-tax party. | 0:23:15 | 0:23:20 | |
-Was it crossing a Rubicon? -Yes, it was. I felt it was crossing a Rubicon, because it was changing... | 0:23:20 | 0:23:25 | |
Our whole philosophy, as New Labour, was a different economic approach, | 0:23:25 | 0:23:29 | |
that we were to encourage people, encourage aspiration. | 0:23:29 | 0:23:32 | |
That meant a competitive tax rate, something realistic, to encourage people to get on. | 0:23:32 | 0:23:37 | |
It was sending a broader political signal, if you like. Now, this was changing it. | 0:23:37 | 0:23:41 | |
If putting it up was difficult for Labour, | 0:23:42 | 0:23:45 | |
cutting it now is a headache for the coalition. | 0:23:45 | 0:23:48 | |
Liberal Democrat David Laws | 0:23:48 | 0:23:50 | |
was George Osborne's deputy at the Treasury. | 0:23:50 | 0:23:53 | |
The politics now makes keeping the top rate much easier than scrapping it. | 0:23:53 | 0:23:58 | |
I think that 50% is too high. | 0:23:59 | 0:24:02 | |
Half of somebody's income is a hell of a lot for we in government, | 0:24:02 | 0:24:06 | |
for the state, to take, however rich they are. | 0:24:06 | 0:24:09 | |
But I'm absolutely clear that, while we are in the middle of this, er, | 0:24:09 | 0:24:14 | |
necessary process of Government austerity, | 0:24:14 | 0:24:17 | |
while we're imposing huge burdens on people across society, | 0:24:17 | 0:24:21 | |
it would be absolutely nuts to be seen to be a government | 0:24:21 | 0:24:24 | |
that was prioritising the richest 1% of the population. | 0:24:24 | 0:24:27 | |
The rich aren't exactly lining up | 0:24:31 | 0:24:34 | |
to offer to pay more tax on their income. To many, | 0:24:34 | 0:24:37 | |
having to hand over more than half what they earn to the Government | 0:24:37 | 0:24:41 | |
crosses a psychological pain barrier. | 0:24:41 | 0:24:45 | |
So politicians faced with the political and practical difficulties of getting more money that way | 0:24:45 | 0:24:51 | |
have turned increasingly, not to the rich, | 0:24:51 | 0:24:54 | |
but to the, well, comfortably off. | 0:24:54 | 0:24:57 | |
'I'm heading to the seaside town of Southport in Lancashire. | 0:25:07 | 0:25:11 | |
'I'm going to meet a family classified as comfortably off, | 0:25:11 | 0:25:15 | |
'wealthy enough to pay, not the top rate of tax, | 0:25:15 | 0:25:18 | |
'but the so-called higher rate of 40p in the pound, | 0:25:18 | 0:25:21 | |
'levied on earnings over 44,000 a year.' | 0:25:21 | 0:25:25 | |
'Kat Sumner earns nothing. She's a full-time mum, bringing up four children. | 0:25:27 | 0:25:32 | |
'Although her husband Neil earns about 49,000 a year, | 0:25:32 | 0:25:36 | |
'they feel far from comfortable. In fact, they feel stretched.' | 0:25:36 | 0:25:41 | |
-Some people will hear 49,000 and think, "That's a lot of money, a lot more than we earn." -Yeah. | 0:25:43 | 0:25:48 | |
And I understand how people feel about that, | 0:25:48 | 0:25:51 | |
but, I mean, I don't think they really understand how, | 0:25:51 | 0:25:54 | |
you know, far that really goes, when you've got to think about six people, | 0:25:54 | 0:25:59 | |
paying for their food, paying for their clothes, housing them all. | 0:25:59 | 0:26:03 | |
I have to try quite hard to make ends meet. | 0:26:03 | 0:26:06 | |
'Instead of putting up tax rates, politicians have classified | 0:26:07 | 0:26:11 | |
'more and more people as higher-rate taxpayers, | 0:26:11 | 0:26:15 | |
'dragging more families into the net. | 0:26:15 | 0:26:18 | |
'The number of families like Kat's paying 40% | 0:26:18 | 0:26:22 | |
'has trebled in the past 30 years.' | 0:26:22 | 0:26:25 | |
-CHILD: -I don't know now. -You don't know? | 0:26:25 | 0:26:27 | |
The tax bandings have been very static compared to people's incomes. | 0:26:27 | 0:26:32 | |
As people's incomes rose and rose, the tax bandings stayed pretty much where they were | 0:26:32 | 0:26:37 | |
and therefore brought more people into paying 40p tax rate. | 0:26:37 | 0:26:41 | |
That whole situation is really unfair. | 0:26:41 | 0:26:44 | |
'With so many ordinary families now paying the higher rate of tax, | 0:26:44 | 0:26:48 | |
'it's become harder for politicians to increase their tax rate. | 0:26:48 | 0:26:53 | |
'Instead, the Government has to claw back cash from them in other ways.' | 0:26:53 | 0:26:58 | |
'We will withdraw child benefit from households' | 0:26:58 | 0:27:01 | |
with a higher-rate taxpayer. When the debts left by Labour | 0:27:01 | 0:27:05 | |
threaten our economy, when our welfare costs | 0:27:05 | 0:27:08 | |
are out of control, this measure makes sense. | 0:27:08 | 0:27:11 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:27:11 | 0:27:14 | |
It's my only income as a person, um, and it... | 0:27:16 | 0:27:19 | |
When it was taken away, it made me feel really, like, this is... | 0:27:19 | 0:27:24 | |
This is us saying, "There is no value in what you do, | 0:27:24 | 0:27:28 | |
"we don't value anything about you, who you are or what you do." | 0:27:28 | 0:27:32 | |
The plan to cut Kat's child benefit inspired her | 0:27:35 | 0:27:39 | |
to start a local campaign against the cuts. | 0:27:39 | 0:27:42 | |
I've got a few things here explaining about some of the cuts that are being made. | 0:27:42 | 0:27:47 | |
'She wants the better-off to pay more | 0:27:47 | 0:27:50 | |
'and certainly doesn't think of herself as belonging to that group.' | 0:27:50 | 0:27:55 | |
In terms of tax, you don't want to pay any more? | 0:27:56 | 0:27:59 | |
It's not that I don't WANT to pay any more, | 0:27:59 | 0:28:01 | |
I feel that people should be responsible and take pride | 0:28:01 | 0:28:05 | |
in paying their taxes, but I feel like we haven't got any more to give. | 0:28:05 | 0:28:09 | |
That feeling, which many people share, | 0:28:12 | 0:28:15 | |
is what tempts politicians to promise tax cuts, | 0:28:15 | 0:28:18 | |
even when there simply isn't the money to pay for them. | 0:28:18 | 0:28:21 | |
'There are now three million higher-rate taxpayers, | 0:28:21 | 0:28:25 | |
'but ten times that number pay the basic rate, | 0:28:25 | 0:28:28 | |
'so cutting that has long been the holy grail.' | 0:28:28 | 0:28:32 | |
The idea of cutting income tax has held politicians, | 0:28:34 | 0:28:38 | |
whether Conservative or Labour, in its spell for three decades. | 0:28:38 | 0:28:43 | |
When Gordon Brown delivered his last Budget just weeks before | 0:28:43 | 0:28:47 | |
moving next door on Downing Street to Number 10, | 0:28:47 | 0:28:50 | |
he was determined to prove that he too was a New Labour figure. | 0:28:50 | 0:28:55 | |
What better way of doing that | 0:28:55 | 0:28:57 | |
than cutting the basic rate of income tax? | 0:28:57 | 0:29:00 | |
And you know, for a while, it all seemed to go so well. | 0:29:00 | 0:29:05 | |
To reward work, to ensure working families are better off | 0:29:05 | 0:29:08 | |
and to make the tax system fairer, | 0:29:08 | 0:29:10 | |
I will from next April cut the basic rate of income tax | 0:29:10 | 0:29:14 | |
from 22 pence to 20 pence... | 0:29:14 | 0:29:17 | |
CHEERING | 0:29:17 | 0:29:18 | |
Everybody likes to sit down to a cheer, | 0:29:20 | 0:29:23 | |
but this is a case where if you are going to change the tax system | 0:29:23 | 0:29:27 | |
in a big way, for goodness' sake, | 0:29:27 | 0:29:29 | |
ask yourself...is this too good to be true? | 0:29:29 | 0:29:32 | |
I commend this Budget to the House. | 0:29:32 | 0:29:35 | |
Because the answer is it probably is too good to be true. | 0:29:35 | 0:29:38 | |
Problem for David Cameron to follow this, which he'll be doing in a moment? | 0:29:38 | 0:29:43 | |
Diary said that it was worse than changing nappies. | 0:29:43 | 0:29:46 | |
A Labour Chancellor who they've said is a tax increaser has suddenly, | 0:29:46 | 0:29:49 | |
with about 30 seconds' notice, said, "There, a 2p cut on income tax." | 0:29:49 | 0:29:53 | |
He doesn't know what we don't know - | 0:29:53 | 0:29:56 | |
who is paying for that 2p cut in the basic rate? We'll find out. | 0:29:56 | 0:29:59 | |
What we did find out is that that income-tax cut for some | 0:30:02 | 0:30:06 | |
was being paid for by an income-tax rise | 0:30:06 | 0:30:10 | |
for some of the poorest taxpayers in the country. | 0:30:10 | 0:30:13 | |
Gordon Brown had scrapped the lowest level of income tax - | 0:30:13 | 0:30:16 | |
the 10p band - and he, like another Labour Chancellor, Denis Healey, | 0:30:16 | 0:30:22 | |
all those years ago, was greeted with howls of outrage. | 0:30:22 | 0:30:27 | |
The problem this time is they were coming from his own supporters. | 0:30:27 | 0:30:31 | |
I'm afraid the real problem for us was there was an awful lot of people | 0:30:31 | 0:30:34 | |
who bluntly were traditional Labour voters and had been with us | 0:30:34 | 0:30:38 | |
in support for the last ten years, | 0:30:38 | 0:30:40 | |
who suddenly found their income had dropped, | 0:30:40 | 0:30:43 | |
and they're the ones who said, "Hold on, what have you done to us?" | 0:30:43 | 0:30:46 | |
When Alistair Darling took over from Brown at the Treasury, | 0:30:48 | 0:30:51 | |
he also took over the daunting problem of compensating those | 0:30:51 | 0:30:55 | |
who'd paid the price for a good headline. | 0:30:55 | 0:30:59 | |
At a cost of £2.7 billion, | 0:30:59 | 0:31:01 | |
I will increase the individual personal tax allowances by £600... | 0:31:01 | 0:31:07 | |
The eventual bill was closer to £6 billion | 0:31:07 | 0:31:10 | |
and it was politically costly too. | 0:31:10 | 0:31:13 | |
Just eight days after Darling's attempted salvage job, | 0:31:13 | 0:31:17 | |
Labour lost a once-safe seat in a by-election in Crewe and Nantwich. | 0:31:17 | 0:31:22 | |
..20,541. | 0:31:22 | 0:31:26 | |
This was not well managed at all, | 0:31:26 | 0:31:28 | |
this was a political disaster, and it took a heavy toll. | 0:31:28 | 0:31:31 | |
The reality is that the biggest money-spinner of all, | 0:31:37 | 0:31:40 | |
income tax, has now become a dead cert political loser. | 0:31:40 | 0:31:45 | |
The political consensus that it was impossible to raise income tax | 0:31:45 | 0:31:50 | |
meant the Government simply couldn't raise enough money that way. | 0:31:50 | 0:31:53 | |
There was, of course, a simple solution - | 0:31:53 | 0:31:56 | |
tax people's incomes, but do it with a tax called something different. | 0:31:56 | 0:32:00 | |
National Insurance. | 0:32:00 | 0:32:03 | |
'The Government takes not only income tax from our pay packets | 0:32:04 | 0:32:09 | |
'but also National Insurance, which of course is paid by employers too.' | 0:32:09 | 0:32:13 | |
Is Wise Venture a wise venture? | 0:32:13 | 0:32:16 | |
'It's hard to keep track of how much we cough up, | 0:32:16 | 0:32:19 | |
'let alone where it goes.' | 0:32:19 | 0:32:21 | |
Thanks very much indeed. | 0:32:21 | 0:32:23 | |
'So, with some punters, I did a few sums.' | 0:32:23 | 0:32:26 | |
How much income tax do you think you pay? | 0:32:28 | 0:32:32 | |
2,000, 3,000? | 0:32:35 | 0:32:38 | |
SHE GASPS | 0:32:40 | 0:32:41 | |
-Oh, my God! -How much do you think you pay in National Insurance? | 0:32:41 | 0:32:45 | |
-Two and a half? -Two and a half thousand? | 0:32:45 | 0:32:48 | |
Wow. | 0:32:53 | 0:32:55 | |
I need a pay rise! | 0:32:56 | 0:32:57 | |
-Would you like to pay more tax, Kirsty? -No, I wouldn't, actually. | 0:32:57 | 0:33:02 | |
-You wouldn't? -No! | 0:33:02 | 0:33:03 | |
But if you had to have a tax rise, | 0:33:03 | 0:33:05 | |
would you rather it was income tax or National Insurance? | 0:33:05 | 0:33:09 | |
-I would prefer that it was National Insurance. -Because? | 0:33:09 | 0:33:12 | |
Because I believe in the National Health system. | 0:33:12 | 0:33:15 | |
And I think it is far better to pay into that. | 0:33:15 | 0:33:19 | |
I think if they had to put one up, | 0:33:19 | 0:33:21 | |
I'd prefer it to be National Insurance. | 0:33:21 | 0:33:24 | |
Because? | 0:33:24 | 0:33:25 | |
Because I think that goes towards healthcare | 0:33:25 | 0:33:28 | |
and things that I will need in the future. | 0:33:28 | 0:33:31 | |
If they're going to put anything up, | 0:33:31 | 0:33:33 | |
-put up the National Insurance? -National Insurance. | 0:33:33 | 0:33:35 | |
If I told you they're absolutely the same, | 0:33:35 | 0:33:38 | |
income tax and National Insurance, | 0:33:38 | 0:33:40 | |
they pay for exactly the same things... | 0:33:40 | 0:33:42 | |
-No. That is just like...wrong. -They do. | 0:33:42 | 0:33:46 | |
Many of us may think that National Insurance is not just another tax, | 0:33:46 | 0:33:51 | |
but some kind of, well, insurance, | 0:33:51 | 0:33:53 | |
paying exclusively for health and pensions. | 0:33:53 | 0:33:57 | |
That was true once, now it's a fiction. | 0:33:57 | 0:34:01 | |
Yet it's one which serves politicians well to maintain. | 0:34:01 | 0:34:04 | |
At the top, Mr Brown, please! | 0:34:04 | 0:34:07 | |
In the budget of 2002, Gordon Brown, | 0:34:07 | 0:34:11 | |
the Chancellor who'd pledged not to raise income tax, | 0:34:11 | 0:34:14 | |
raised the tax on our incomes by putting up National Insurance. | 0:34:14 | 0:34:17 | |
The clever bit was the way he sold it to us. | 0:34:17 | 0:34:20 | |
We as a nation will have to spend more on health care. | 0:34:20 | 0:34:24 | |
I believe it is right that when everyone, employees and employers, | 0:34:24 | 0:34:29 | |
benefit from the insurance provided by | 0:34:29 | 0:34:32 | |
the National Health Service, | 0:34:32 | 0:34:34 | |
everyone who can should make a fair contribution. | 0:34:34 | 0:34:38 | |
Market researcher Deborah Mattinson had tested every key phrase in focus groups. | 0:34:40 | 0:34:46 | |
Her job was to find a way to sell Gordon Brown's tax rise. | 0:34:46 | 0:34:50 | |
First off it was about ring-fencing the money and saying | 0:34:50 | 0:34:54 | |
this will go on the NHS | 0:34:54 | 0:34:55 | |
and that the NHS needed more investment, | 0:34:55 | 0:34:57 | |
which people bought relatively easy and it resulted in a tax rise | 0:34:57 | 0:35:02 | |
that eight out of ten people supported and were in favour of, | 0:35:02 | 0:35:05 | |
which I think is quite an achievement. | 0:35:05 | 0:35:07 | |
Finally someone had done it, come up with a popular tax rise. | 0:35:09 | 0:35:12 | |
How did Gordon Brown do it? | 0:35:12 | 0:35:14 | |
Well, first and foremost by not calling it an income-tax rise. | 0:35:14 | 0:35:18 | |
Second, by making it seem to be for a very specific purpose. | 0:35:18 | 0:35:22 | |
And thirdly, by linking it with the national religion - the NHS. | 0:35:22 | 0:35:27 | |
But there's a sting in this tale. | 0:35:27 | 0:35:30 | |
If the Government thought it would get the credit for the spending | 0:35:30 | 0:35:33 | |
produced by that tax rise, it was to be mistaken. | 0:35:33 | 0:35:37 | |
What we found, very frustratingly, | 0:35:37 | 0:35:39 | |
was what we began to describe as, "I've been lucky syndrome." | 0:35:39 | 0:35:42 | |
People would say, "My local primary school is OK but I've been lucky." | 0:35:42 | 0:35:49 | |
Or, "I took my daughter to the A&E, we were seen in half an hour, but we were lucky." | 0:35:49 | 0:35:53 | |
In other words, when they started to see that change in their own lives, | 0:35:53 | 0:35:57 | |
they didn't assume that this was happening all over the country. | 0:35:57 | 0:36:01 | |
Does that have an impact of undermining | 0:36:01 | 0:36:03 | |
the ability of politicians to ask for more money to spend? | 0:36:03 | 0:36:06 | |
It completely undermined the ability, | 0:36:06 | 0:36:09 | |
because basically people didn't feel that things had improved. | 0:36:09 | 0:36:12 | |
What had happened to them, their experience, | 0:36:12 | 0:36:14 | |
what they'd seen was an isolated lucky fluke. "I've been lucky." | 0:36:14 | 0:36:17 | |
'And this could be one of the biggest problems of all | 0:36:22 | 0:36:25 | |
'for politicians trying to raise more tax on our incomes. | 0:36:25 | 0:36:29 | |
'Whatever the evidence, we never seem to think we're getting a bargain.' | 0:36:29 | 0:36:34 | |
How much do we get back in return for the taxes that we give to the Government? | 0:36:38 | 0:36:42 | |
That depends, of course, on where we are on the income scale. | 0:36:42 | 0:36:46 | |
Let's put all the households in the UK into ten equal groups, | 0:36:46 | 0:36:50 | |
starting with the poorest and moving up to the richest. | 0:36:50 | 0:36:54 | |
This shows what households on average get from government. | 0:36:54 | 0:36:57 | |
The higher the bar, the more the group gets | 0:36:57 | 0:36:59 | |
in things like healthcare, education, pensions and benefits, | 0:36:59 | 0:37:02 | |
pretty much everything the Government spends its money on. | 0:37:02 | 0:37:05 | |
As we go down the income scale, towards the poorest, we see that, | 0:37:05 | 0:37:09 | |
on average, poorer households get slightly more from the Government. | 0:37:09 | 0:37:14 | |
No surprise there, because, of course, they get more | 0:37:14 | 0:37:16 | |
in terms of benefits. | 0:37:16 | 0:37:18 | |
But now let's add something. | 0:37:18 | 0:37:20 | |
Let's see what happens when you add in how much people pay in tax. | 0:37:20 | 0:37:24 | |
Above the line is what you're getting from the Government, | 0:37:24 | 0:37:28 | |
below the line is what you're paying to them in taxes. | 0:37:28 | 0:37:31 | |
For the first six groups, that's for 60% of all households, | 0:37:31 | 0:37:37 | |
on average they are getting more back than they're paying in. | 0:37:37 | 0:37:40 | |
But then look at the top 40% of households. | 0:37:40 | 0:37:44 | |
On average they are getting less than they pay | 0:37:44 | 0:37:47 | |
and this last one, the top, the richest 10%, they contribute | 0:37:47 | 0:37:51 | |
on average about five times in tax more than they are getting back. | 0:37:51 | 0:37:58 | |
There is a further twist though, | 0:37:58 | 0:38:00 | |
which makes life even harder for politicians. | 0:38:00 | 0:38:03 | |
Opinion polls show that even people in those groups that do receive the most | 0:38:03 | 0:38:09 | |
don't see it that way. | 0:38:09 | 0:38:10 | |
They tell pollsters they simply don't believe that | 0:38:10 | 0:38:13 | |
they're getting more back than they've paid in. | 0:38:13 | 0:38:17 | |
'If taxing people's incomes is hard to sell, | 0:38:26 | 0:38:29 | |
'what about taxing the things we buy instead? | 0:38:29 | 0:38:32 | |
'Leicester is home to one of the biggest markets in Europe. | 0:38:33 | 0:38:37 | |
'Plenty here, you might think, for a Chancellor to take a bite of. | 0:38:37 | 0:38:41 | |
'If only it were that simple.' | 0:38:41 | 0:38:44 | |
There is a tax that we all pay almost every day | 0:38:44 | 0:38:47 | |
and yet often barely notice it. | 0:38:47 | 0:38:49 | |
It is a tax that generates a vast amount of revenue | 0:38:49 | 0:38:52 | |
and can generate a vast amount of political controversy. | 0:38:52 | 0:38:56 | |
It operates in a pretty bizarre way | 0:38:56 | 0:38:59 | |
and yet any politician who tries to sort that out | 0:38:59 | 0:39:03 | |
ends up with a bloody nose. | 0:39:03 | 0:39:05 | |
It is nearly 40 years since the Chancellor of the Exchequer | 0:39:08 | 0:39:11 | |
introduced VAT - value added tax. | 0:39:11 | 0:39:14 | |
You paid 10% on everything except the essentials - | 0:39:14 | 0:39:18 | |
food and children's clothes. | 0:39:18 | 0:39:20 | |
He called it "a simple tax". How times change. | 0:39:20 | 0:39:25 | |
Take pet food. | 0:39:25 | 0:39:27 | |
-I'll take those if I may, please? -Oh, yes, sir. | 0:39:32 | 0:39:35 | |
Has that got VAT with it? | 0:39:35 | 0:39:38 | |
-Yes, it has. -We pay VAT on these?! -Yes. -Really? -Terrible, isn't it? | 0:39:38 | 0:39:44 | |
If it was a bag of rabbit food, then there's no VAT on it | 0:39:44 | 0:39:47 | |
because we eat rabbits, but our dogs are pets, so you're charged. | 0:39:47 | 0:39:50 | |
-So there's no VAT on rabbit food? -On rabbit food. -But there is on dog food? -Yes. | 0:39:50 | 0:39:54 | |
If you buy some biscuits in a supermarket for YOU, there's no VAT on it, | 0:39:54 | 0:39:57 | |
but dog biscuits you're charged for, 20%. | 0:39:57 | 0:39:59 | |
-So if I gave my dog chocolate chip cookies... -No VAT. -No VAT. | 0:39:59 | 0:40:02 | |
But if I gave my dog these? What hasn't got VAT? | 0:40:02 | 0:40:05 | |
-What can I feed my dog that hasn't got VAT? -Rabbit food. | 0:40:05 | 0:40:09 | |
-Where is it? -There's no VAT on that. | 0:40:09 | 0:40:12 | |
-Do you think the dog would eat that? -There's no VAT on wild birds. | 0:40:12 | 0:40:15 | |
No VAT on those. OK. | 0:40:15 | 0:40:16 | |
But if you have the cockatiel seed, because it's got some seed in | 0:40:16 | 0:40:20 | |
and some of them, then that's VATable because it's for a specific animal. | 0:40:20 | 0:40:24 | |
-Are you a tax accountant? -No, I have to split it all for my accounts. | 0:40:24 | 0:40:28 | |
-Does it make any sense? -No. No. | 0:40:28 | 0:40:31 | |
'Clearly time for me to do some homework. | 0:40:31 | 0:40:34 | |
'The once simple rules on what is and is not VATable | 0:40:34 | 0:40:39 | |
'now run to almost 3,500 pages. | 0:40:39 | 0:40:43 | |
'Even the stallholders seem confused.' | 0:40:43 | 0:40:47 | |
-What about tea? -Yes, I think. -No, you don't pay VAT on that. | 0:40:47 | 0:40:51 | |
But if I go and buy a cup of tea over there, I do pay VAT on that. | 0:40:51 | 0:40:54 | |
Jaffa Cakes. | 0:40:54 | 0:40:56 | |
-VAT, no VAT? -No. | 0:40:57 | 0:41:00 | |
What about popcorn? VAT or not VAT? | 0:41:00 | 0:41:04 | |
-And the right answer is... No. -I said that in the first place! | 0:41:04 | 0:41:09 | |
-That one doesn't pay. That one does pay VAT. -Why? | 0:41:09 | 0:41:12 | |
Don't ask me, I'm not the Chancellor. | 0:41:12 | 0:41:14 | |
This is clear as mud, isn't it(?) It really, really is. | 0:41:14 | 0:41:17 | |
'With all this confusion and complexity, it might seem | 0:41:19 | 0:41:22 | |
'straightforward, sensible even, for politicians to simplify things | 0:41:22 | 0:41:28 | |
'and add VAT to more goods, raising a few quid as they do. | 0:41:28 | 0:41:31 | |
'Well, not quite.' | 0:41:31 | 0:41:33 | |
Takeaways used to be tax-free until, back in 1984, | 0:41:37 | 0:41:41 | |
the then Tory government decided to extend VAT to cover them. | 0:41:41 | 0:41:46 | |
Logical, painless - or so they thought. | 0:41:46 | 0:41:49 | |
Restaurant meals were subject to VAT, | 0:41:49 | 0:41:53 | |
but takeaway food was not subject to VAT. | 0:41:53 | 0:41:56 | |
If you sat down and had a meal, you were paying VAT. | 0:41:56 | 0:41:59 | |
If you took the thing away, the takeaway, you weren't. | 0:41:59 | 0:42:02 | |
I said, "That's ridiculous." | 0:42:02 | 0:42:04 | |
I said, "Well, we'll put VAT on takeaway meals as well." | 0:42:04 | 0:42:09 | |
But some political heavyweights found that hard to swallow. | 0:42:09 | 0:42:14 | |
It's diabolical. This is a tax on the customer, a tax on the consumer. | 0:42:14 | 0:42:18 | |
It is 15% on the price of food for a lot of pensioners, | 0:42:18 | 0:42:22 | |
a lot of students, a lot of school children, a lot of unemployed | 0:42:22 | 0:42:26 | |
and a lot of people with large families who go out to work | 0:42:26 | 0:42:29 | |
and rely on hot takeaways such as fish and chips and so on. | 0:42:29 | 0:42:32 | |
As well as that battering, | 0:42:32 | 0:42:35 | |
there was a problem with the men at the Revenue. | 0:42:35 | 0:42:38 | |
Then Customs and Excise said to me, | 0:42:38 | 0:42:40 | |
"Look, it's very difficult to draw a line," | 0:42:40 | 0:42:44 | |
because some takeaway foods, for example, | 0:42:44 | 0:42:48 | |
a salad is very much like going to the grocers and getting it there, | 0:42:48 | 0:42:53 | |
and you don't have to pay VAT there. | 0:42:53 | 0:42:55 | |
And how do we draw the line between groceries and takeaway food? | 0:42:55 | 0:42:59 | |
I came to the absurd conclusion, but it has stuck ever since | 0:42:59 | 0:43:02 | |
and it is the law, that I would say if it was hot, you paid VAT, | 0:43:02 | 0:43:06 | |
and if it's cold, you don't. | 0:43:06 | 0:43:08 | |
For 30 years it has been Tory Chancellors | 0:43:08 | 0:43:12 | |
who've extended VAT and hiked the rate, | 0:43:12 | 0:43:16 | |
whilst Labour politicians have condemned them for taxing the poor. | 0:43:16 | 0:43:22 | |
But under Gordon Brown a battle waged not between the parties | 0:43:22 | 0:43:26 | |
but within his government. | 0:43:26 | 0:43:28 | |
He was desperate not to put VAT up, | 0:43:28 | 0:43:31 | |
but his Chancellor living next door was desperate to do just that. | 0:43:31 | 0:43:37 | |
Desperate because boom had turned to bust. | 0:43:38 | 0:43:41 | |
The City of London and the housing market, which had provided | 0:43:41 | 0:43:44 | |
so much of the cash which the Treasury had depended on, | 0:43:44 | 0:43:48 | |
had crashed. | 0:43:48 | 0:43:50 | |
The man responsible for balancing the books had already raised | 0:43:50 | 0:43:53 | |
the top rate of income tax. | 0:43:53 | 0:43:55 | |
Now he wanted to do precisely what his party had spent decades | 0:43:55 | 0:43:59 | |
attacking the Tories for doing. | 0:43:59 | 0:44:02 | |
What I wanted to do was to gradually increase VAT up to 19% or 20%. | 0:44:02 | 0:44:06 | |
That would've allowed me to have cut personal taxes, | 0:44:06 | 0:44:09 | |
taken more people out of tax and, critically, not only could | 0:44:09 | 0:44:13 | |
I have compensated people on fixed incomes who would lose out with VAT | 0:44:13 | 0:44:18 | |
I could also make a sizeable inroad into cutting our borrowing. | 0:44:18 | 0:44:22 | |
Nick Pearce worked at the time as a senior aide to Gordon Brown. | 0:44:23 | 0:44:27 | |
He recalls how the Prime Minister and his team thought a VAT rise | 0:44:27 | 0:44:32 | |
would be seen as penalising the poor and a massive political U-turn. | 0:44:32 | 0:44:37 | |
People in Number 10 thought, "Look, that's not a fair tax. | 0:44:37 | 0:44:40 | |
"It's a regressive tax, it will split the Labour Party potentially | 0:44:40 | 0:44:44 | |
"and it blunts the sense that Labour has responded | 0:44:44 | 0:44:47 | |
"to the crisis with fairness," | 0:44:47 | 0:44:49 | |
because it's quite hard to argue that VAT is a fair tax. | 0:44:49 | 0:44:53 | |
Alistair Darling was told | 0:44:53 | 0:44:55 | |
that a VAT rise would hand the election to the Tories. | 0:44:55 | 0:44:58 | |
He was ordered to increase National Insurance instead. | 0:44:58 | 0:45:02 | |
This time, though, the policy backfired. | 0:45:02 | 0:45:05 | |
You can make a case for National Insurance, yes, you can. | 0:45:07 | 0:45:09 | |
But inevitably, it was going to be portrayed as a tax on jobs. | 0:45:09 | 0:45:14 | |
Surprise, surprise, that's exactly what happened | 0:45:14 | 0:45:16 | |
the first week of the election campaign in 2010. | 0:45:16 | 0:45:19 | |
How frustrating was this argument? | 0:45:19 | 0:45:22 | |
It was frustrating, but I am not the first Chancellor to clash | 0:45:22 | 0:45:26 | |
or to find it frustrating with my next-door neighbour. | 0:45:26 | 0:45:29 | |
In fact, most chancellors sooner or later, | 0:45:29 | 0:45:32 | |
it's one of these things, it's a doomed relationship when you move in together. | 0:45:32 | 0:45:36 | |
Even more frustrating must have been the sight of his Tory successor George Osborne | 0:45:37 | 0:45:43 | |
doing exactly what Darling had wanted to do - raising VAT to 20%. | 0:45:43 | 0:45:48 | |
The years of debt and spending make this unavoidable. | 0:45:48 | 0:45:54 | |
'Unavoidable he says, but before the election, it had been unmentionable.' | 0:45:54 | 0:45:59 | |
The Conservatives hadn't gone to the electorate to say that they were thinking about putting up VAT. | 0:45:59 | 0:46:05 | |
There again, Labour ministers had not told voters | 0:46:05 | 0:46:08 | |
that they were thinking of doing precisely the same thing. | 0:46:08 | 0:46:12 | |
It all goes to show that politicians find it very, very difficult | 0:46:12 | 0:46:17 | |
to be upfront with the public about putting up tax. | 0:46:17 | 0:46:21 | |
For government after government, raising enough tax to cover their spending | 0:46:28 | 0:46:32 | |
has been a political nightmare. | 0:46:32 | 0:46:35 | |
But people who take to the streets have no such worries. | 0:46:35 | 0:46:38 | |
Their answer is to get more tax from those who are avoiding it, | 0:46:38 | 0:46:43 | |
especially the banks and big business. | 0:46:43 | 0:46:46 | |
The people who caused the crisis are getting away without paying for it. | 0:46:46 | 0:46:50 | |
The people in my community, living in the shadow of these banks, | 0:46:50 | 0:46:53 | |
we're suffering, we're having our services cut. | 0:46:53 | 0:46:56 | |
We've really got to challenge this idea that businesses, somehow, are constrained by paying tax. | 0:46:56 | 0:47:02 | |
The idea that they can get away from their tax means other people have to pay that tax for them. | 0:47:02 | 0:47:07 | |
'A growing number believe that bankers and those they see as greedy businessmen | 0:47:07 | 0:47:12 | |
'are getting away with avoiding what they really owe. | 0:47:12 | 0:47:15 | |
'And the taxman is seen as being a mere amateur | 0:47:15 | 0:47:19 | |
'compared with the professional tax avoiders of the corporate world.' | 0:47:19 | 0:47:24 | |
Big companies have one advantage over all the rest of us. | 0:47:26 | 0:47:29 | |
They can make their affairs really, really complicated. | 0:47:29 | 0:47:33 | |
And because they can, they become really difficult to understand | 0:47:33 | 0:47:37 | |
and that means the job of collecting tax from them is quite hard | 0:47:37 | 0:47:42 | |
because no-one quite knows the truth. | 0:47:42 | 0:47:44 | |
As a consequence, they pay less tax than you do, | 0:47:44 | 0:47:47 | |
I do and most people watching this programme will pay. | 0:47:47 | 0:47:51 | |
Cowardly politicians have put us into this situation | 0:47:51 | 0:47:55 | |
and we now need some courageous ones to get us out of it. | 0:47:55 | 0:47:59 | |
-Of both parties? -Of both parties. Of all parties. | 0:47:59 | 0:48:02 | |
For many centuries, | 0:48:06 | 0:48:09 | |
the authorities have come up with more and more ingenious ways to get their hands on our money | 0:48:09 | 0:48:13 | |
and taxpayers have found ways to avoid paying it. | 0:48:13 | 0:48:17 | |
If you don't give the revenue what you owe them, | 0:48:17 | 0:48:20 | |
that's illegal, that's tax evasion. | 0:48:20 | 0:48:22 | |
But if you do your best to give them as little as possible, | 0:48:22 | 0:48:25 | |
that's perfectly legal. That's called tax avoidance. | 0:48:25 | 0:48:30 | |
'These days, tax-avoiding wheezes are often hidden deep in company accounts. | 0:48:31 | 0:48:37 | |
'But our past efforts are everywhere to be seen.' | 0:48:37 | 0:48:42 | |
This building in Westminster was built just a few years after the imposition of the hated windows tax. | 0:48:42 | 0:48:48 | |
In the early 1700s, the idea of taxing our incomes was unthinkable. The way it worked was simple. | 0:48:48 | 0:48:53 | |
If you had a building and it had windows, you owed the Government 2 shillings a year. | 0:48:53 | 0:48:57 | |
If you had more than 10 windows, it was 4 shillings. | 0:48:57 | 0:49:00 | |
More than 20, 8 shillings. | 0:49:00 | 0:49:02 | |
Which is why buildings were often built with the windows bricked up. | 0:49:02 | 0:49:07 | |
The only way to avoid what we call these days daylight robbery. | 0:49:07 | 0:49:13 | |
MUSIC: Theme from "Coronation Street" | 0:49:13 | 0:49:16 | |
Down Coronation Street, | 0:49:18 | 0:49:19 | |
avoiding tax is what you do when you pay the plumber in cash. | 0:49:19 | 0:49:23 | |
But the programme vividly shows how politicians themselves | 0:49:23 | 0:49:28 | |
can make avoidance easier by making the tax system too complex. | 0:49:28 | 0:49:33 | |
A classic example is the mess | 0:49:33 | 0:49:35 | |
that Gordon Brown got into when he was Chancellor a few years ago | 0:49:35 | 0:49:38 | |
when he introduced a very well-meaning new tax relief | 0:49:38 | 0:49:42 | |
designed to encourage filmmakers to come to the United Kingdom and make all their films over here. | 0:49:42 | 0:49:48 | |
We suddenly had, allegedly, Coronation Street | 0:49:48 | 0:49:51 | |
and all sorts of comedy programmes made by independent producers | 0:49:51 | 0:49:54 | |
being classified as films and enjoying the value of this tax relief. | 0:49:54 | 0:49:58 | |
What the hell's going on? | 0:50:02 | 0:50:04 | |
By the time the Treasury had figured out what was going on, | 0:50:04 | 0:50:08 | |
a tax relief that was supposed to be costing the Exchequer £20 or £30 million a year | 0:50:08 | 0:50:12 | |
was beginning to cost £200, £300, £400 million. | 0:50:12 | 0:50:16 | |
A massive, massive loss to the taxpayer. | 0:50:16 | 0:50:20 | |
So tax avoidance created by a well-meaning Chancellor? | 0:50:23 | 0:50:27 | |
This was tax avoidance on an industrial scale | 0:50:27 | 0:50:30 | |
created by the Government | 0:50:30 | 0:50:32 | |
not thinking through the consequences of the measures it was taking | 0:50:32 | 0:50:36 | |
and not putting in place the protection necessary to make sure | 0:50:36 | 0:50:40 | |
this tax allowance didn't grow out of control. | 0:50:40 | 0:50:42 | |
'Both businesses and individuals exploit the complexity of our tax system. | 0:50:42 | 0:50:49 | |
'Billionaire John Caudwell was branded a tax avoider a few years back. | 0:50:49 | 0:50:55 | |
'He was paying himself and his executives via a tax-free trust in Jersey | 0:50:55 | 0:50:59 | |
'and had to refund the Exchequer millions of pounds.' | 0:50:59 | 0:51:02 | |
Those words tax avoider, how do you feel when you hear them? | 0:51:04 | 0:51:09 | |
Well, avoidance still doesn't sound great, does it? | 0:51:09 | 0:51:14 | |
But all it really means is somebody legally minimising their tax liability. You tell me | 0:51:14 | 0:51:21 | |
what grown up in the UK is paying tax wouldn't like to minimise the tax through whatever means they can. | 0:51:21 | 0:51:27 | |
'John Caudwell has now paid a fortune in taxes, | 0:51:27 | 0:51:32 | |
'but he says avoidance is simple for people like him.' | 0:51:32 | 0:51:37 | |
There's so many of my friends | 0:51:37 | 0:51:39 | |
that have done tax planning by leaving the country | 0:51:39 | 0:51:42 | |
and the country is so much the poorer for it. | 0:51:42 | 0:51:45 | |
Some people say that taxes are, for the very rich, effectively voluntarily. | 0:51:45 | 0:51:49 | |
I think taxes are totally voluntary for the very rich. | 0:51:49 | 0:51:52 | |
We all have the freedom of choice to leave the country, | 0:51:52 | 0:51:56 | |
to go to a tax-free state and end up selling your business | 0:51:56 | 0:52:01 | |
or generating income and doing it in a virtually tax-free environment. | 0:52:01 | 0:52:04 | |
If you are rich and you want to avoid paying tax, | 0:52:10 | 0:52:13 | |
you can move yourself or your business abroad. | 0:52:13 | 0:52:16 | |
There is one thing, of course, that is very hard to move abroad. | 0:52:16 | 0:52:20 | |
Your house. | 0:52:20 | 0:52:22 | |
'Which is why there's now growing pressure | 0:52:28 | 0:52:31 | |
'for a so-called mansions tax on expensive property. | 0:52:31 | 0:52:35 | |
'Here in London's Mayfair, there should be scope for quite a haul for the Chancellor. | 0:52:35 | 0:52:40 | |
'Even a rather modest looking place down this street has been on the market for £20 million.' | 0:52:43 | 0:52:50 | |
'That's right, 20 million.' | 0:52:52 | 0:52:55 | |
-Here we go. -It looks very different inside. -It does. | 0:52:55 | 0:52:59 | |
'Estate agent Liam Bailey gave me a tour.' | 0:52:59 | 0:53:02 | |
Open plan, ready to move into. | 0:53:02 | 0:53:04 | |
This market, the buyers for this sort of property, what they are looking for | 0:53:04 | 0:53:09 | |
is a property which is absolutely finished before they move in. | 0:53:09 | 0:53:12 | |
-Almost like having a hotel room. You come in and you can use it. -Exactly. | 0:53:12 | 0:53:16 | |
'Some say that a tax on expensive property | 0:53:18 | 0:53:22 | |
'offers a way of getting the very rich to stump up more. | 0:53:22 | 0:53:26 | |
'And there's another argument too. | 0:53:26 | 0:53:28 | |
'It turns out that the people who can afford places like this can pay | 0:53:28 | 0:53:32 | |
'a lot less tax on their purchases than most ordinary mortals.' | 0:53:32 | 0:53:35 | |
If I was buying this, stamp duty would be a bit of a worry. If I even had the money. | 0:53:37 | 0:53:42 | |
Well, it would be 5%, so you would be paying £1 million in stamp duty. | 0:53:42 | 0:53:46 | |
-Can I avoid that? -You could buy | 0:53:46 | 0:53:49 | |
an offshore company structure and, effectively, | 0:53:49 | 0:53:52 | |
-you would be paying half a percent. -So I'm saving...? -£900,000. | 0:53:52 | 0:53:56 | |
'Rich foreign buyers can also escape | 0:53:58 | 0:54:01 | |
'having to pay capital gains tax when they sell up. | 0:54:01 | 0:54:05 | |
'And council tax isn't much of a worry either.' | 0:54:05 | 0:54:08 | |
This would be banded band H, top band, | 0:54:10 | 0:54:13 | |
so you would be paying the maximum council tax in the area. | 0:54:13 | 0:54:16 | |
Which is the same for this 20 million or more house | 0:54:16 | 0:54:20 | |
-as it is for some £500,000 flat down the road? -Could be. | 0:54:20 | 0:54:24 | |
'For politicians who see pitfalls in other taxes, | 0:54:27 | 0:54:31 | |
'raising money from expensive property may sound a sure-fire winner. | 0:54:31 | 0:54:36 | |
'But hold on, have you forgotten the fuss created by other property taxes? Like the rates.' | 0:54:36 | 0:54:42 | |
Would a property tax be an easy | 0:54:42 | 0:54:45 | |
and politically pain-free way of raising a large sum of money? | 0:54:45 | 0:54:48 | |
There is an economic rationale for a property tax beyond doubt. | 0:54:48 | 0:54:52 | |
In my view, it would be political suicide | 0:54:52 | 0:54:55 | |
for anybody to do it. The British are attached to housing, | 0:54:55 | 0:55:00 | |
they see housing as a source of wealth. | 0:55:00 | 0:55:04 | |
A lot of it is inflation and is due to the scarcity of housing, | 0:55:04 | 0:55:08 | |
it's not productive wealth in that sense, | 0:55:08 | 0:55:11 | |
but I think a property tax would be political madness. | 0:55:11 | 0:55:15 | |
I think wealth and land taxes tend to be very popular with economists | 0:55:15 | 0:55:21 | |
and they tend to be less popular with politicians. | 0:55:21 | 0:55:24 | |
-Because...? -Because people often don't like the idea of being taxed | 0:55:24 | 0:55:30 | |
on things that they have already purchased out of income which has been taxed. | 0:55:30 | 0:55:34 | |
And people don't like new taxes in general. | 0:55:34 | 0:55:37 | |
The tighter the squeeze gets on us all, | 0:55:40 | 0:55:43 | |
the more pressure government will be under to raise taxes | 0:55:43 | 0:55:46 | |
on the sorts of people who can afford houses like this. | 0:55:46 | 0:55:49 | |
If they say, "We are ready to move abroad," | 0:55:49 | 0:55:52 | |
there will be plenty of people who say either good riddance, or it's just an idle threat. | 0:55:52 | 0:55:59 | |
But the dilemma that politicians will face is the same as we have seen before. | 0:55:59 | 0:56:03 | |
If you want to really raise money on the rich, | 0:56:03 | 0:56:06 | |
you'll end up hitting people who regard themselves as not rich at all. | 0:56:06 | 0:56:11 | |
Which of course takes us back, precisely, to where we started. | 0:56:11 | 0:56:17 | |
'In this series, we have seen how politicians, urged on by us, | 0:56:19 | 0:56:23 | |
'have been spending more and more and more for decades. | 0:56:23 | 0:56:27 | |
'Now that the economic clouds have become darker, | 0:56:27 | 0:56:30 | |
'the sums no longer add up. | 0:56:30 | 0:56:33 | |
'We voters have begrudged giving the politicians the extra tax | 0:56:33 | 0:56:37 | |
'needed to pay for it all.' | 0:56:37 | 0:56:40 | |
Do you resent your taxes going from you to someone else? | 0:56:40 | 0:56:43 | |
I've resented it all my life. | 0:56:43 | 0:56:45 | |
'The rich don't want to pay more.' | 0:56:45 | 0:56:48 | |
So many of my friends | 0:56:48 | 0:56:49 | |
and acquaintances have done tax planning by leaving the country. | 0:56:49 | 0:56:53 | |
'And the rest of us seem to think we pay quite enough already.' | 0:56:53 | 0:56:58 | |
I have to try quite hard to make ends meet. | 0:56:58 | 0:57:00 | |
'And when politicians try other wheezes to raise tax, | 0:57:00 | 0:57:04 | |
'they get into trouble.' | 0:57:04 | 0:57:06 | |
It's as clear as mud, isn't it? It really is. | 0:57:06 | 0:57:08 | |
'They say they simply can't win.' | 0:57:08 | 0:57:12 | |
If someone can think of a popular tax, | 0:57:12 | 0:57:14 | |
they should phone up and let us know, | 0:57:14 | 0:57:16 | |
because it isn't obvious there is one. | 0:57:16 | 0:57:19 | |
'But curiously, the current economic crisis may force us | 0:57:19 | 0:57:23 | |
'to confront head on our troubles with tax.' | 0:57:23 | 0:57:27 | |
Governments keep on changing and tweaking the existing system, | 0:57:28 | 0:57:32 | |
creating things that are more and more complex and irrational. | 0:57:32 | 0:57:36 | |
Perhaps once, twice, three times in every century, | 0:57:36 | 0:57:39 | |
there's a fundamental opportunity to do something more radical, clear away | 0:57:39 | 0:57:45 | |
the debris built up from decades of incremental government policy. | 0:57:45 | 0:57:48 | |
But if we don't make some big changes now, the opportunity to do so again may not come for another 20-30 years. | 0:57:48 | 0:57:55 | |
For years, any politician living on this street | 0:57:59 | 0:58:02 | |
who has dared to admit they might need to tax us a bit more | 0:58:02 | 0:58:05 | |
and spend a little bit less has found themselves punished. | 0:58:05 | 0:58:09 | |
No wonder, then, that whether they're Labour or Conservative, | 0:58:09 | 0:58:13 | |
they've tended to pretend that they can spend more and more and yet tax less and less. | 0:58:13 | 0:58:21 | |
If there's one advantage of the current economic crisis, perhaps it's this - | 0:58:21 | 0:58:26 | |
that we can have a more grown-up debate about your money and how they spend it. | 0:58:26 | 0:58:33 | |
Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd | 0:58:43 | 0:58:48 | |
E-mail: [email protected] | 0:58:48 | 0:58:51 |