Pennod 1 Cadw Cwmni Gyda John Hardy

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-Welcome to a new series

-called Cadw Cwmni.

-Over the next eight weeks...

-..we'll hear a varied

-collection of experiences...

-..from different people

-from across Wales.

-Some stories will amaze us,

-some may shock us.

-Others will be personal experiences

-of historical events.

-Tonight, we visit Derry,

-Northern Ireland...

-..to meet the man who led the

-public inquiry into Bloody Sunday.

-First, the Tryweryn campaign...

-..and one man's attempt to stop Cwm

-Celyn disappearing under the water.

-Initially, Liverpool had looked

-at the valley around Dolanog...

-..near the home of Ann Griffiths.

-Towards the end of 1955, they

-turned their attention to Tryweryn.

-The first time

-local people heard about it...

-..was a report in their local paper

-about flooding the valley.

-The first campaigns organized

-by the defence committee...

-..included sending letters

-to different part of the country...

-..to try and gather support.

-Plaid Cymru and Gwynfor Evans

-became involved.

-They tried to gather more support

-by sending letters to Liverpool...

-..and participated

-on radio and TV programmes.

-Later, a younger, more radical group

-within Plaid Cymru became involved.

-They realised that

-the constitutional methods...

-..reflected in Plaid Cymru's

-leadership weren't going to work.

-The younger generation said...

-.."You've protested,

-you've marched through Liverpool...

-.."but Liverpool

-will still flood the valley."

-The tensions become more apparent

-in the early 1960s...

-..and the radical group decided...

-..on direct action

-within the valley.

-On February 10, 1963...

-..a bomb exploded on the site

-of the reservoir in Tryweryn.

-One man was arrested,

-but there were three involved.

-One of the three, Owain Williams,

-joins me tonight.

-When did you first become aware

-of Tryweryn?

-I'd moved from Wales

-to live in Canada.

-My mother would send me letters,

-and newspapers such as Y Cymro.

-That's when I first read

-about this little village.

-I didn't intend to stay in Canada

-forever.

-My intention was just to move away

-and forget about Wales for a while.

-We eventually moved back.

-When we arrived back,

-it was a contentious situation.

-There was a lot of talking

-but very little action.

-You decided to act, with

-Emyr Llewelyn and John Albert Jones.

-When did the three of you meet...

-..and decide you were going

-to detonate a bomb?

-I'd known John Albert Jones

-long before I knew Emyr Llewelyn.

-By then, I was running a coffee bar,

-a small restaurant, in Pwllheli.

-John was one of my customers.

-A lot of students

-frequented the cafe.

-I asked some of the students if they

-knew someone who'd be ready to act.

-I didn't tell them precisely

-what I had in mind.

-Emyr Llew's name cropped up.

-We got in touch with him,

-he came to the cafe...

-..stayed with us for a few days

-and we discussed what we would do.

-We decided to blow up

-a transformer...

-..cutting the site's

-electricity supply.

-That wouldn't stop the work

-but would cause some delay.

-More than that, I hoped it would

-awaken the Welsh consciousness...

-..and people

-would take action themselves.

-You decided to go to Tryweryn.

-You decided to bomb the transformer.

-I take it you prepared beforehand.

-We had a little training.

-It wasn't years of training -

-it was closer to half an hour!

-I broke into a quarry

-in Llithfaen...

-..to try and gather some explosives.

-The quarry was closed for a few days

-giving us time to do the job.

-We returned home

-and opened this huge crate...

-..only to find electrical detonators

-but no explosives.

-We were short of gelignite.

-Emyr Llew found some

-in a quarry in Pembrokeshire.

-You've had some training, you've

-gathered the equipment together.

-What about the recce?

-What about the recce?

-

-John and I visited the site...

-..on various nights

-during the harsh winter of 1963.

-After many visits, we were confident

-we knew what to do.

-On one occasion,

-we were very cheeky...

-..and visited the site during

-the day, wearing yellow helmets.

-We told them

-we were looking for work.

-We walked into the office

-and it was empty.

-We were able to sketch

-the whole site in broad daylight.

-We were there

-for about half an hour.

-Then we left

-with everything we needed.

-John and I had pinpointed

-five or six targets...

-..and a transformer.

-If you were going to bomb

-one target...

-..you may as well do four or five.

-The impact would be greater.

-Emyr Llew disagreed.

-Emyr Llew was worried

-we'd be labelled as terrorists.

-If we stuck to one target,

-it would be a more symbolic act...

-..a la Saunders Lewis in Penyberth.

-I wasn't keen

-to put my head on the block.

-I wanted to do this job -

-I had three children by then...

-..and John agreed with me.

-On the night...

-..you couldn't have chosen

-a worse night.

-No. We'd had heavy snowfall.

-On the way to the site...

-..we had a flat tyre

-which made the situation worse.

-We were at the roadside

-between Bala and Dolgellau.

-We drove on through Bala

-and decided to park up.

-We headed for Cwmtirmynach...

-..and parked the car behind

-the primary school in Cwmtirmynach.

-We then walked the remainder of the

-way to the dam, through the snow.

-Since the snow was so bright, you

-were able to see us with our lamps.

-By the time we reached

-the perimeter...

-..the security guards had left.

-We timed our arrival perfectly.

-Emyr and I went over the fence

-to place the bomb...

-..under the oil drum.

-John kept watch outside

-in case someone turned up.

-We were only there

-for about 10 minutes...

-..but it was a terrible experience.

-We had a timing device

-but as we put it in its place...

-..we didn't know

-if it would blow up in our hands.

-It was a frightening experience.

-We'd never done it before.

-We headed back to the car.

-Unwisely, I decided not

-to travel back through Bala.

-We went back through Cwmtirmynach

-to Betws-y-Coed.

-It was a disastrous decision.

-In the middle of the road,

-there was a van stuck in the snow.

-This young man helped us turn around

-and we helped him with his van.

-We headed back towards Bala.

-That decision would come

-back to haunt us later.

-I lived in a flat

-above the cafe in Pwllheli.

-Emyr and John

-stayed with me that night.

-We didn't hear a thing

-on the news the following morning.

-We thought

-the whole thing had flopped.

-Either they'd found it

-or it had failed to detonate.

-About midday, we heard about it

-on the national news.

-A bomb had exploded in Tryweryn.

-In our eyes, it has been a success.

-Emyr Llewelyn was arrested.

-Emyr Llewelyn was arrested

-around a week after the explosion.

-Emyr didn't tell the police

-who he'd acted with.

-We had a pact

-that whoever was caught...

-..wouldn't infiltrate the others.

-On the night he was sentenced

-to 12 months imprisonment...

-..John and I went out to blow

-up a pylon in Gellilydan...

-..which supplied the site

-with electricity.

-Unfortunately,

-we didn't have a timer this time.

-We just flicked two wires connected

-to the explosive packages...

-..at the base of the transformer.

-One of the explosives detonated

-but the other one didn't...

-..but it was enough

-to bring the pylon down.

-That was a rather amateurish job.

-We were arrested a week later.

-Do you regret any part of it?

-No, I have no regrets.

-The people who suffered the most

-were my family.

-My children were around four

-or five years old at the time.

-You spent a year in jail.

-Yes.

-If you looked at the act

-in political terms...

-..rather than a personal emotion...

-..it was an important event

-that needed to happen.

-I was disappointed that the

-Welsh nation didn't rise as one.

-I expected too much...

-..but I still think

-it was the first stone...

-..that created the ripples

-in the water.

-Thank you for sharing the story

-and keeping us company.

-A man who's roots are in Cwm Celyn

-joins us after the break.

-He'll be discussing the

-public inquiry into Bloody Sunday.

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-Welcome back.

-Earlier, we looked back

-at events in Tryweryn.

-In Part Two, we're heading

-to Londonderry, Northern Ireland.

-It witnessed one of the most

-unforgettable events of the 1970s...

-..Bloody Sunday.

-What we saw on Bloody Sunday...

-..was one of the most

-important events...

-..in the history of

-Northern Ireland's troubles.

-It was one of the

-bloodiest incidents...

-..and one of the most controversial.

-The Saville Inquiry was completed

-only two years ago.

-That inquiry lasted around 12 years.

-It was one of the longest in

-the history of the United Kingdom.

-In terms of the day itself, it was

-meant to be an organized protest...

-..by a group that was trying

-to promote human rights...

-..in Northern Ireland for Catholics.

-The Army was sent

-to Northern Ireland in 1971.

-On Bloody Sunday,

-the First Battalion...

-..of The Parachute Regiment

-were heavily involved.

-13 protesters were killed

-during the protest.

-As we've learnt

-over the past months...

-..thanks to the Saville Inquiry...

-..many of those killed were unarmed.

-Some were shot in their backs

-by British soldiers.

-There was a lot of discussion

-amongst the soldiers.

-It's a controversial subject

-to this day.

-The work of gathering the facts...

-..to apportion the blame

-for Bloody Sunday...

-..was the responsibility

-of my next guest...

-..solicitor Peter Watkin Jones.

-How did you become involved

-in the first place?

-As a firm, we were invited

-to tender for the work.

-We presented our tender

-and my name was on the tender.

-As a Welsh speaker, I thought

-I would understand better...

-..than some of my partners

-in England...

-..how a community would respond

-to the presence of British soldiers.

-How wary were they

-when you went over there?

-They were very suspicious.

-When I was there

-at the very beginning...

-..I was regularly confronted

-by news teams...

-..accusing me of being a member

-of MI5.

-They believed I was turning up

-with a British agenda...

-..to criticise the local community

-for a second time.

-They didn't think I wanted

-to discover the real truth.

-My role was to persuade the people

-that I was unbiased...

-..and that our team was eager

-to discover the truth as it was.

-In a situation like that...

-..it must have been difficult

-to meet some of the people.

-It was very difficult

-but my intention....

-At the time, there was no peace

-settlement in Northern Ireland.

-There were regular fatalities.

-I wanted to meet people but I wanted

-to make sure my staff were safe.

-I wanted to meet the people

-and make sure they knew who I was.

-I was impartial, I would visit

-Bogside to knock on people's doors.

-I was made aware of the identities

-of the community leaders...

-..and knocked on their doors.

-You literally walked into Bogside?

-You literally walked into Bogside?

-

-I met the police beforehand...

-..because I wanted to know

-the risks.

-They gave me some answers

-that made me very nervous.

-I was told my identity would

-already be known to many people.

-I was advised to visit alone,

-without a police officer...

-..to avoid missiles

-being thrown at us.

-When I walked into Bogside...

-..I was confronted by a mural of

-a man with a mask over his face...

-..a gun in his hand

-and the words 'Sniper at work'.

-I remember a problem at the time...

-..was people wouldn't admit

-to being members of the IRA.

-The IRA has always been

-a secret society.

-For years, they refused

-to conform, they refused to meet me.

-I had to try and persuade them

-to cooperate and speak to me.

-This was the first time for some of

-them to admit to being in the IRA.

-Martin McGuiness was one.

-Are we guilty of not appreciating...

-..the depth of resentment

-over Bloody Sunday in Derry?

-I didn't realize how historically

-significant it actually was.

-In Wales, we have Tryweryn.

-Tryweryn for them is Bloody Sunday,

-where 13 people died.

-I was aware that this was

-an important event...

-..but for them,

-it had happened yesterday...

-..not 25 years earlier.

-How did you persuade people

-to talk to you?

-How did you know

-if they were telling the truth?

-I've learnt how to persuade people

-to talk.

-There's a skill and a technique.

-I learnt through experience...

-..when I spoke to the children

-who'd been at Bryn Estyn.

-I'd been involved with the child

-abuse case at Bryn Estyn previously.

-I'd adopted a technique

-which was suitable to Bloody Sunday.

-I didn't go in

-with a list of questions.

-If people are ready to talk

-and you're ready to listen...

-..and the skill is listening and

-responding, you will find the truth.

-It's not up to me to decide if

-they're telling the truth or not.

-My intention was to persuade them

-to talk...

-..so that the inquiry,

-and Lord Saville in this case...

-..could listen

-to the best testimony.

-I persuaded them that I was there

-to do my best for them.

-That was my responsibility.

-Is there a temptation to place

-yourself in a dangerous situation...

-..to gather the information

-you require?

-Certainly,

-when your staff are involved.

-We created internal regulations

-that I thought were sensible.

-I'm not one to take risks. Who would

-take a risk with his own staff?

-Sometimes, you were confronted

-with the unexpected.

-I found myself

-in unexpected situations...

-..possibly because

-of the naive way I'd acted.

-When you talk about Bloody Sunday,

-discussions turn to the IRA...

-..but you were also analysing

-the role of the British Army.

-Were they as awkward to deal with

-as the IRA?

-Being in charge of a public inquiry

-is a rather unusual responsibility.

-You hear views from opposing camps.

-In a court case, you only ask

-for your client's testimony.

-You don't hear the opposing argument

-until you're in court.

-When you gather testimony

-for a public inquiry...

-..you interview the people

-who were shot...

-..and the people who shot them.

-Normally, no-one wants to

-speak to me, no-one at all.

-The people who've been shot, or

-the children who've been abused...

-..they don't want

-to relive the experience.

-When I'm interviewing someone...

-..I want them to recall

-the moment it happened...

-..so that they relive it anew.

-They weren't eager to talk

-about their experiences.

-The soldiers who fired the shots

-weren't eager to talk.

-They were worried that they would

-be subject to criminal proceedings.

-It was difficult to persuade anyone

-to talk to me.

-The best way to do it is by

-not accusing anyone of anything.

-Give them plenty of support by

-listening and responding sensibly.

-The original intention

-was to go over for three weeks.

-You ended up being there

-for seven years.

-How do you know that you

-reached the right conclusion?

-How do you know that

-there's nothing more to discover?

-Certainly,

-the Bloody Sunday inquiry...

-..was the longest

-and most expensive ever held.

-How much did it cost?

-About 200m.

-We managed to complete the inquiry

-by leaving no stone unturned.

-That was the policy drawn up

-by Lord Saville at the beginning.

-He wasn't going to be accused

-of complacency...

-..as his predecessor had been

-about 20 years earlier.

-He wanted to discover the truth.

-In your job, you collect information

-that sometimes shocks you.

-How do you keep it

-all in emotionally?

-How do you cope

-with all the information?

-You're married, you have a family,

-you're away from home a lot.

-Are you able to control

-your emotions?

-Do you have to be

-a certain type of person?

-The way I and the team

-interview people...

-..we try and encourage people

-to relive their experiences.

-When I interview someone,

-I don't write anything down.

-I listen to them and try and

-relive the experience with them.

-I see everything through their eyes.

-If something's happened

-in Bogside...

-..or there's been abuse

-in a children's home...

-..I walk down the corridor

-with them, I hear the same sounds...

-..I relive the same experiences.

-That certainly leaves its mark

-but I can't do my work properly...

-..or gain someone's trust, unless

-I'm ready to do that with them.

-I don't ask people to repeat facts.

-I ask them to explain

-the emotions they felt at the time.

-I share the emotion with them.

-How do I cope with it afterwards?

-When I go home, I switch off.

-I don't work on weekends.

-I sing with Mynediad Am Ddim

-every now and then.

-That's a very different experience.

-And my family keeps me sane.

-Thank you for sharing

-that time with us tonight.

-Thank you very much.

-That's it for this week.

-If you have a story, get in touch.

-We want to hear your stories on S4C.

-We'll be back next week.

-Until then, goodnight.

-S4C Subtitles by Adnod Cyf.

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