Pennod 4 Cadw Cwmni Gyda John Hardy


Pennod 4

Gyda Glyn Pritchard fu'n gweithio i dîm fforensig yn Kosovo a John Lewis gafodd ei herwgipio yn y Sudan. With forensic expert Glyn Pritchard and John Lewis who was kidnapped in...


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-Welcome to Cadw Cwmni...

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-..the programme which proves

-we all have a story to tell.

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-Tonight

-we wander from Sudan to Kosovo.

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-My first guest

-has witnessed the after-effects...

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-..of one of the most

-atrocious wars of recent times.

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-What we saw happening in Kosovo...

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-..in 1998 and 1999

-when NATO intervened...

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-..was the outcome of bloody

-conflicts during the 1990s...

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-..which led to the disintegration

-of the former Yugoslavia.

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-What we saw in the 1990s

-and possibly the 1980s...

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-..were Serbian politicians

-using Kosovo as a catalyst...

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-..to incite a nationalistic

-uprising among the Serbian people.

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-Figures like Slobodan Milosevic

-came to the fore...

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-..whose goal it was

-to rid Kosovo of Albanians.

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-The outcome of that conflict...

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-..saw Milosevic

-completely lose control in Serbia...

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-..less than a year

-after the bombing campaign.

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-Milosevic was subsequently

-detained, appearing at The Hague...

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-..where he later died.

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-He was on trial at the time.

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-We've also seen Serbia changing...

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-..and moving away from the Serbia

-that existed in the 1990s...

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-..and embroiled in the civil war.

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-Now Serbia is far more liberated...

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-..and has a bigger involvement

-in the international community.

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-One who worked in Kosovo,

-following the Balkan conflicts...

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-..is my first guest.

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-Richard Pritchard, welcome.

-What initially led you to Kosovo?

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-I was working

-for the police service in Holyhead.

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-I was a detective sergeant.

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-A telex was sent

-to the police station at the time.

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-There was no such thing

-as email back then.

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-It said that the Foreign Office...

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-..was preparing to send teams...

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-..of forensic police officers...

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-..to investigate the accusation...

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-..that people

-were being murdered and buried.

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-I thought,

-well, I've done plenty of courses.

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-I might be able to put some of what

-I'd learnt to good use out there...

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-..and be of assistance

-to the families.

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-So essentially,

-you went there to look for graves?

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-Yes, graves and bodies.

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-What was the purpose

-of you going there?

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-Did you go there to find bodies or

-to confirm people had been killed?

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-To prove they'd been killed.

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-We didn't know

-who had killed them...

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-..but we knew

-they'd been unlawfully killed.

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-Was it difficult finding the graves?

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-Was it difficult finding the graves?

-

-Teams before us...

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-..had questioned local people...

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-..and were able to tell us

-where the graves were located.

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-What was the next step?

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-The Royal Engineers'

-bomb disposal team was deployed.

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-The next process...

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-..involved digging up the graves...

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-..until we found a body or bodies

-that might have been buried in them.

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-Family members

-were also searching for loved ones.

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-It must have been very emotional.

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-Yes, in some areas

-the families had buried the bodies.

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-They'd found the bodies

-and buried them.

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-They wanted to be present

-when we recovered them.

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-We had to work closely with them...

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-..to get them on our side.

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-How important was it for them

-to prove they had been killed?

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-It was a major issue for them.

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-They wanted to prove that

-their sons, daughters or husbands...

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-..had been killed by the Serbs...

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-..and wanted the world to know

-that they'd been killed.

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-How were they killed?

-Had they been shot?

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-Had they been bombed?

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-When you spoke to the natives...

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-..they said Serbs

-bombed the villages...

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-..and as villagers were fleeing,

-snipers were gunning them down...

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-..and leaving them for dead.

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-Was it difficult

-tracing the families of the dead?

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-You must've uncovered a grave,

-not knowing who was buried?

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-We had no idea who had been buried

-in some of the graves.

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-Unfortunately we had to follow

-the same procedure...

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-..of returning the corpse

-to the hospital for a post-mortem.

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-But before

-the post-mortem took place...

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-..we removed the corpse's clothes...

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-..washed them by hand

-in these large tubs...

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-..laid them out

-and photographed them.

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-We compiled

-an album of photographs...

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-..to see if anyone

-recognized the clothes.

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-There might have been a patch

-that a mother had sewn.

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-That's how we tried to find out.

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-That's how we tried to find out.

-

-How long were you there?

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-Five weeks in total.

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-Five weeks in total.

-

-Did they restrict you to five weeks?

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-They thought five weeks was adequate

-for the work we were doing.

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-How did you cope with your emotions?

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-There were 16 of us in all who

-were police officers and doctors.

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-At night we'd go out for a meal...

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-..and get it out of our systems

-by discussing and talking about it.

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-I presume for that kind of work...

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-..you have to try and be

-emotionally detached?

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-Like any doctor or nurse,

-you can't get emotionally attached.

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-I'm sure

-it was unavoidable at times.

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-Yes, there was one time when we were

-on a mountainside outside Pristina.

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-An old man approached us and said...

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-.."That is my nephew buried there.

-I buried him."

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-I asked him

-what had happened to him.

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-He told me the Serbs

-had infiltrated the village...

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-..shot him in the back and as he

-went down, they broke his neck...

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-..with the butt of the rifle.

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-"I've got a bit of his skull here,"

-he said.

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-"That's how we remember him by."

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-I said, "When we

-take the body to the mortuary...

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-"..for the post-mortem...

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-"..we have to try

-and identify this body.

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-"If I can have

-that piece of skull from you...

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-"..we might be physically able

-to fit that into his skull...

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-"..and positively identify

-this person as your nephew."

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-He said, "Yes, by all means,

-but I must have it back."

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-We took it from him,

-took his photograph...

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-..and took the body

-back to the hospital.

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-The post-mortem

-was carried out the following day.

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-The skull fragment from

-the old gentleman fitted perfectly.

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-We then had to drive

-back up the mountain...

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-..to return the skull fragment.

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-He was very grateful.

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-Once they'd buried their loved ones,

-did they flee the village...

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-..only to return later?

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-They were frightened

-and you could tell...

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-..if family members themselves

-had buried the body or the Serbs.

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-It was customary for the family

-to use the Drasa method.

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-They'd dig the hole for the grave...

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-..place the corpse inside

-and lay wooden planks across it...

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-..so that there was

-enough space around the corpse.

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-They claimed

-it was for the spirit to circulate.

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-For the spirit to circulate?

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-For the spirit to circulate?

-

-Yes, that's what they thought.

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-The Serbs just

-threw the bodies into the graves.

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-What did you do

-with the bodies in Kosovo...

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-..once you'd recovered them?

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-We took them to the mortuary

-and locked them in...

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-..to make sure

-they weren't tampered with.

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-The following day,

-the bodies were collected...

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-..and they

-were taken to the post-mortem.

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-The pathologist

-would register the body...

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-..and each corpse

-had its own number.

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-They were identified

-by their numbers.

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-As soon as

-the post-mortem was carried out...

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-..we took the corpse

-to a refrigerated container...

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-..outside the hospital...

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-..for the family

-or the Red Crescent to collect it.

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-In terms of the bodies

-you recovered...

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-..what percentage of those

-had been murdered?

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-We recovered 55 bodies in all.

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-Of those 55...

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-..we proved 44 of them

-had been murdered.

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-The other 11 couldn't be proven due

-to the condition of their bodies.

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-They were too burnt and decomposed.

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-Taking into account

-your experiences...

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-..does it surprise you what one man

-is capable of doing to another?

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-No, it's horrific

-what man is capable of.

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-It's awful

-what one man can do his fellow man.

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-The Serbs fought the Albanians.

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-They had been living in harmony

-in the same village...

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-..and then, suddenly,

-they started killing each other...

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-..and burning each other.

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-..and burning each other.

-

-Would you go back?

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-Yes.

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-Yes.

-

-Do you regret...

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-..not having

-more than five weeks there?

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-It took five weeks just to

-familiarize yourself with the work.

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-It took time

-to do the job correctly.

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-I could have spent

-four months out there.

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-Do you think perhaps you

-would've become hardened to it...

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-..if you'd stayed for longer?

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-Yes, perhaps so.

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-That kind of work would definitely

-take its toll on you by the end.

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-You're dealing with bodies

-and grieving families.

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-Anglesey's a long way from Kosovo!

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-Just a bit!

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-But every day was worth it.

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-Glad to hear it.

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-Thank you

-for sharing your story with me.

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-Thank you for the invitation.

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-Time for a break now,

-but when we return...

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-..we're travelling

-from Kosovo to Sudan...

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-..to hear from a man

-who was taken hostage out there.

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-Join me in two minutes.

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-.

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-Subtitles

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-Subtitles

-

-Subtitles

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-Welcome back to Cadw Cwmni.

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-We've already heard about Glyn

-Pritchard's experiences in Kosovo.

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-My next guest is also familiar with

-dangers overseas and civil wars.

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-What we saw

-at the beginning of 1955...

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-..was a period of instability in

-Sudan which has lasted until now.

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-What happened in 1955...

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-..was the outcome

-of a drawn-out process...

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-..for Sudan's independence.

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-It was also the outcome of events...

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-..during

-the Anglo-Egyptian occupation...

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-..which lasted from

-the end of the 19th century...

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-..to Sudan's independence in 1956.

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-Egypt and Britain were competing

-for dominance over the Sudanese.

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-Sudan itself,

-especially during the 1950s...

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-..was an archaic province

-of the Ottoman Empire.

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-Hundreds of thousands were killed

-in the Sudanese War of the 1960s.

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-It was a ferocious war.

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-This, in effect..

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-..shaped the politics of Sudan,

-not only in the 1960s...

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-..but throughout

-the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s.

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-My next guest has been to Sudan

-as well as many other countries.

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-Originally from Llanon...

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-..he's travelled

-to more countries than the Pope!

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-John Lewis, welcome.

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-Let's begin with Sudan.

-What kind of country is it?

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-It was once

-the largest country in Africa...

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-..covering

-almost a million square miles.

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-Today it's divided

-into South Sudan and Sudan.

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-I was based in Darfur,

-where I conducted the survey.

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-It's a simple

-and obvious question...

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-..but what's a man

-from West Wales doing in Sudan?

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-I was an engineer

-with the geophysics team.

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-What were you

-looking for in particular?

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-Minerals - gold, molybdenum...

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-..cobalt, copper.

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-But we were looking

-for subterranean water in Sudan.

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-Enormous lakes beneath the desert.

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-The Sudanese War...

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-..is what we think about

-when the country is mentioned.

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-What was the situation like

-when you were there?

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-It was relatively quiet when

-we began the survey in January.

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-By the end of May...

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-..we heard on the radio...

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-..that there was

-civil unrest in Khartoum.

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-Suddenly, we were engulfed

-by about 500 soldiers.

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-Essentially, what they

-were looking for was transport.

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-We had four Land Rovers,

-so they held us at gunpoint...

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-..for another fortnight.

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-About half of them

-disappeared after that.

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-They took three Land Rovers...

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-..and siphoned the fuel

-from our vehicle.

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-You've just told me, in passing...

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-..that 500 soldiers engulfed you.

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-You were held hostage

-for a fortnight in the desert?

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-Yes, to begin with, and then

-half the regiment went away...

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-..leaving one captain behind.

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-They took most of the food, but we

-had some left and a little water.

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-Was there ever a time

-when you feared for your life?

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-Yes, within the first fortnight...

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-..because they were very nervous.

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-Many of the soldiers

-were uneducated.

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-They were young recruits.

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-You weren't sure

-what was going to happen.

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-The three captains spoke English.

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-Two of them had left...

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-..but the one who was in charge

-of the other half was unfriendly.

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-It becomes

-a psychological game then.

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-You're trying not to upset anyone...

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-..and you're

-speaking to them politely...

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-..and possibly

-sympathizing with them...

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-..just to keep them on your side.

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-As time went on -

-four weeks, five weeks...

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-..we had to

-ration the food and water...

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-..not knowing how long

-we were going to be there...

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-..and all of a sudden they fled.

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-I woke up one morning

-and they'd gone.

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-They'd all gone,

-along with the natives we'd hired.

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-We hired 50 of them

-and they'd gone too.

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-There were only four of us left.

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-Myself, an engineer, two

-geophysicists and one geologist.

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-So you've gone from

-a fortnight of oppression...

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-..to waking up one morning

-with only four of you left?

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-Did you have any food?

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-They took all the guns,

-so we couldn't hunt for food.

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-There was guinea fowl out there

-but we had no way of hunting it.

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-There was about

-three gallons of water left...

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-..and five or six tins

-of meat or whatever.

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-What do you do in that situation?

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-You're in the middle of nowhere.

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-Did you have a Land Rover?

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-There was one Land Rover left but

-they'd siphoned the fuel from it.

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-So you couldn't ration since you

-didn't know how long you'd be there?

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-We tried to ration,

-but six weeks went by...

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-..and I'd lost two stone in weight.

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-The usual routine was for us

-to return every three weeks...

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-..and go to

-the embassy's library in El-Fashir.

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-We became friendly

-with the librarian.

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-She threw a party every three weeks.

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-Five weeks had gone by and she

-couldn't understand where we were.

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-She'd heard there was unrest,

-so she raised the alarm...

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-..and informed the ambassador

-in Khartoum who contacted our base.

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-Our boss, a fellow engineer...

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-..then looked at the survey plan.

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-He had the same copy as us...

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-..and knew something was wrong

-when we didn't return.

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-The government had

-another battalion in El-Fashir...

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-..and it sent them to search for us.

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-They had an idea

-where to look for us...

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-..in, say, Abyad or Amcadada...

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-..but it was 200 miles away.

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-When they found us,

-we'd finished the food and water...

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-..and we were draining the

-radiator water from the Land Rover.

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-So you were drinking radiator water?

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-So you were drinking radiator water?

-

-Yes, we used our shirts as sieves...

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-..to remove the majority

-of the impurities from the water.

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-How long would you have survived

-if they hadn't turned up?

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-I'd say less than a week.

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-Maybe four or five days.

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-It's so hot out there,

-you perspire quite a bit.

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-It was around

-45-50 degrees Celsius in the heat.

0:19:430:19:48

-It was sweltering.

0:19:480:19:50

-Didn't you think of walking?

0:19:510:19:53

-Didn't you think of walking?

-

-That's the worst thing you can do.

0:19:530:19:55

-You're much safer staying with the

-Land Rover or something similar.

0:19:560:20:00

-A search and rescue mission is

-more likely to spot a Land Rover...

0:20:010:20:05

-..than the body of a man,

-for example.

0:20:050:20:09

-You can live without food

-but water is vital.

0:20:090:20:12

-Especially in that heat.

0:20:130:20:15

-Water is essential.

0:20:150:20:17

-Once the radiator water

-had run out...

0:20:170:20:21

-..we would've

-had to drink our own urine.

0:20:210:20:24

-In that kind of heat...

0:20:240:20:26

-..you try to retain as much water

-in the body as possible...

0:20:260:20:30

-..otherwise fatigue sets in...

0:20:310:20:34

-..and you become disorientated.

0:20:340:20:38

-I wanted to ask you about

-the mental strain you were under...

0:20:380:20:42

-..because it's too hot

-in that situation to do anything.

0:20:430:20:46

-All you can do is sit there.

0:20:470:20:48

-All you can do is sit there.

-

-Move as little as possible...

0:20:480:20:50

-..to prevent perspiration, which

-removes water from the body.

0:20:500:20:55

-You also lose salt.

0:20:550:20:57

-One of the causes of fatigue

-is lack of salt in the body...

0:20:570:21:01

-..in those kinds of temperatures.

0:21:010:21:03

-You've led an interesting life.

0:21:040:21:06

-You've been lucky

-to return from some places.

0:21:060:21:09

-Where were you

-during the crash landing?

0:21:090:21:12

-That was in the Congo.

-I was working in Lubumbashi.

0:21:120:21:16

-It's situated at the base of

-the Congo in the Katanga province.

0:21:160:21:20

-Everything was going well.

0:21:210:21:23

-We flew out of Jo'burg.

0:21:230:21:25

-20 minutes into the flight...

0:21:270:21:30

-..the captain was being sick in

-the toilet at the back of the plane.

0:21:300:21:35

-He was very ill -

-he had sickness and diarrhoea.

0:21:350:21:39

-The co-pilot was a young man.

0:21:400:21:43

-One of the engines

-started spluttering.

0:21:430:21:48

-He shouted across the plane...

0:21:480:21:50

-..that he had to disconnect

-the propeller from the engine.

0:21:500:21:55

-They call it feathering the engine.

0:21:550:21:58

-He made a mistake.

0:22:000:22:02

-He'd feathered the wrong engine.

0:22:040:22:09

-We were only 400 feet in the air

-at that point...

0:22:090:22:13

-..and nosedived.

0:22:130:22:16

-Fortunately

-we landed in a clearing...

0:22:160:22:21

-..in the long grass.

0:22:210:22:24

-The plane

-was bouncing off the ground.

0:22:240:22:29

-It then came to a standstill.

0:22:290:22:33

-A piece of kit

-had fallen on my head.

0:22:330:22:36

-A lump was

-the only injury I sustained.

0:22:360:22:41

-Then it fell completely silent.

0:22:410:22:43

-The skipper was in pain.

-Something had happened to him.

0:22:440:22:49

-Everybody disembarked the aeroplane.

0:22:500:22:52

-The only thing

-that was working was the HF radio.

0:22:520:22:56

-We radioed Lubumbashi and

-they sent a helicopter to rescue us.

0:22:560:23:01

-Thank you very much, John,

-for joining me on Cadw Cwmni.

0:23:010:23:05

-I've enjoyed hearing your stories.

-Thank you very much.

0:23:060:23:10

-You're very welcome.

0:23:100:23:12

-That's all for tonight.

-I'd like to thank both my guests.

0:23:120:23:16

-If you have a story to tell,

-please get in touch.

0:23:170:23:20

-S4C provides the perfect platform

-for your interesting stories.

0:23:200:23:26

-Until next time,

-from me, John Hardy, goodbye.

0:23:260:23:29

-S4C Subtitles by Adnod Cyf.

0:23:480:23:50

-.

0:23:500:23:50

Gyda Glyn Pritchard fu'n gweithio i dîm fforensig yn Kosovo a John Lewis gafodd ei herwgipio yn y Sudan. With forensic expert Glyn Pritchard and John Lewis who was kidnapped in the Sudan.