Pennod 1 Cadw Cwmni gyda John Hardy

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-Welcome to Cadw Cwmni

-with me, John Hardy.

-Everyone has a story to tell...

-..and this series provides

-a platform for them to be heard.

-Tonight's guests

-speak from experience.

-One has overcome a disability...

-..and the other has survived...

-..one of the footballing world's

-tragic events.

-We begin with the latter.

-25 years ago,

-Leppings Lane, Hillsborough...

-..became a familiar name to us all.

-Hillsborough was the worst tragedy

-ever witnessed in Britain...

-..in terms of crowd fatalities.

-Hillsborough happened

-in April 1989...

-..when the crowd was crushed...

-..at Sheffield Wednesday's ground,

-Hillsborough...

-..at the Leppings Lane end, where

-Liverpool supporters were standing.

-It led to the deaths

-of 96 men, women and children.

-There were clear signs...

-..that a tragedy like Hillsborough

-was waiting to happen...

-..from the 1970s onwards.

-Rigid health and safety regulations

-had been introduced in 1976...

-..for football stadia.

-Hillsborough had consistently failed

-to attain these standards.

-One of the problems

-which led to Hillsborough...

-..was the fact

-that football hooliganism...

-..was a big issue in Britain

-during the 1970s and 1980s.

-It led to football terraces

-within the stadia...

-..being segregated into pens

-in which supporters stood...

-..to try and prevent

-the spread of hooliganism.

-With Hillsborough, the crush

-happened during the game...

-..so the fans were unable

-to escape from these narrow pens.

-Many of them

-lost their lives as a result.

-It's hard to believe that 25 years

-has passed since Hillsborough.

-Mark Williams was there.

-Welcome, Mark.

-When did you realize

-something was wrong?

-About 10-15 minutes

-before the game started.

-I was standing in a pen

-on one of the terraces...

-..the same one as I had been

-standing in the year before.

-People couldn't move...

-..and it was becoming

-a tight squeeze.

-I remember the game starting.

-If I remember rightly...

-..Liverpool hit the bar.

-Usually, everybody

-would've shown their frustration...

-..but not this time

-because of the squeeze.

-I had a feeling right from the start

-that it wasn't normal.

-We're talking about a time

-when people stood on terraces.

-It was a confined area

-but it was more confined than usual.

-Yes.

-It's a wonder

-it didn't happen the year before...

-..because it was so confined,

-but this was different.

-Where usually

-there's shouting and singing...

-..I remember people screaming...

-..and shouting at one another rather

-than shouting about the game.

-You said you were there

-a year previously...

-..and Liverpool supporters

-were in the Leppings Lane end...

-..which is smaller

-than the other enclosures.

-There are usually 45,000

-Liverpool supporters at a game...

-..and 25,000 Sheffield supporters.

-Putting the Liverpool fans

-in the smaller enclosure...

-..made no sense at all.

-I remember noticing that

-the other enclosure was empty...

-..while we were being hemmed in.

-It's a wonder

-it didn't happen the year before.

-Were you meant to be

-in the Leppings Lane end?

-Yes. There were three lads with me.

-One had bought a ticket outside...

-..which was above the Leppings Lane

-in the upper tier.

-If I remember rightly, the other two

-had tickets for the main stand.

-You were squeezed into this confined

-space when the game started.

-When did you decide

-that you had to get out of there?

-There came a point...

-..when the screams became desperate.

-They drowned out everything else.

-I thought, 'This isn't right.'

-From what I remember, I couldn't

-get out of there at first.

-We were so hemmed in.

-The game was stopped

-and the players went off...

-..but I didn't know that.

-To this day, I don't remember

-how I got out of there.

-You can't remember?

-You can't remember?

-

-No. I don't know how I got out.

-I remember climbing...

-..and clambering over

-the blue bars of the fence...

-..jumping onto the pitch

-and walking behind goal.

-I remember sitting on the pitch

-and looking at the stands.

-That's all I remember.

-I don't know how I got out of there.

-Were you aware that people

-were getting crushed all around you?

-Yes, to some extent...

-..but I had no idea

-that people were getting hurt...

-..and being killed.

-It was a problem...

-..arising from the hooliganism

-of the 1970 and 1980s.

-The fence had been built

-to keep you in.

-Yes, the fence was upright

-and pointing inwards at the top.

-After watching it later

-on television...

-..the fence had been wrecked...

-..due to people

-clambering to get out of there.

-In terms of the police's reaction...

-..they thought it was hooliganism...

-..and supporters causing trouble.

-From what we saw on television...

-..the police

-were pushing people back.

-The police were partly to blame.

-But they genuinely thought

-it was supporters causing trouble.

-What about your friends?

-What was their situation?

-They were completely fine...

-..in terms of where

-they were sitting in the stadium.

-It was just me

-in the Leppings Lane end.

-They must've known you were there.

-Yes. My friend from Blaenau

-Ffestiniog knew I was in there.

-He was outside with me and I said,

-"I'm going in now."

-I usually go in

-about an hour before a game.

-He knew where I was.

-If you don't remember getting out...

-..you must've been

-in a state of a shock.

-When did you realize

-that supporters had been killed?

-Whilst walking back to the car.

-As late as that?

-As late as that?

-

-Yes, walking back to the car.

-I remember...

-..angry supporters...

-..shouting

-and screaming at police...

-..at the side of the road.

-I remember one person shouting,

-"It's your fault, it's your doing."

-I remember that.

-I heard people talking.

-I remember the first figure

-bandied about was 16...

-..when I reached the car.

-16 people had died.

-I thought,

-'Wow, what's gone on here?'

-Did your parents

-realize what was happening?

-They knew I was at the game.

-I don't know if they realized

-I was in the Leppings Lane end.

-But they were

-beside themselves with worry.

-We're talking about 25 years ago.

-There were no mobile phones.

-How on earth do you tell

-your parents that you're OK?

-I let my parents know I was OK

-at a quarter to six that night.

-I was driving home from Sheffield...

-..over the Snake Pass heading

-towards Manchester and Stockport.

-As you cross the Snake Pass...

-..there are

-small villages dotted around.

-Back then, there were phone boxes...

-..at the side of the road

-in these little villages.

-I remember

-the queue of supporters...

-..queuing up to phone home.

-I was slowing down as I was passing

-village after village.

-I stopped in the end

-since I was the one driving.

-I stopped in the end

-and the four of us queued up...

-..just to use the phone.

-I phoned and Dad answered.

-The only thing I said was,

-'I'm fine.'

-He burst out crying,

-then I burst out crying...

-..and I put the phone down.

-"I'm fine" is the only thing I said.

-I went back to the car

-and drove home.

-I got back at around half past nine,

-quarter to ten.

-What about the aftermath?

-When you started

-reading things in the paper...

-..and seeing

-what the police were saying...

-..they were

-sullying your good name....

-..and vilifying

-the Liverpool supporters.

-Exactly.

-Once I'd overcome the shock...

-..I started feeling

-like myself again some days later.

-When I started reading

-these things in the newspapers...

-..and hearing them on TV...

-..I was consumed with anger.

-It makes me feel like it's my fault,

-that I've killed these people.

-To instantly blame others was wrong.

-Some time ago

-I remember the Panorama programme..

-..showed an interview

-with Peter Wright...

-..the Chief Constable at the time...

-..the following day, on the Sunday.

-It's disgusting...

-..they've got away with it

-for so long.

-But the truth

-is starting to come out now.

-I hope justice will prevail.

-I'm pleased you've lived

-to tell the tale. Thank you, Mark.

-Time for a short break now.

-Join me in Part 2 when another

-guest will be keeping me company.

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-Welcome back to Cadw Cwmni.

-Next is a personal tale, and as you

-can see, I'm joined by two guests.

-Mark Roberts and his guide dog Kira.

-Welcome, Mark.

-You're blind

-after gradually losing your sight.

-What's the condition called?

-The condition is called RP -

-Retinitis Pigmentosa.

-How has it affected you

-throughout your life?

-My parents

-discovered I had a problem...

-..from two or three years of age.

-If a room was poorly lit...

-..or if they took me out at night,

-I'd bump into things...

-..or I wouldn't see things.

-There was obviously a problem.

-They took me to hospital,

-where I saw the specialist...

-..who diagnosed me

-with retinitis pigmentosa.

-Does it run in the family?

-Yes, it does, somewhere,

-but we don't know where exactly.

-I've not heard of any relation

-with the same condition.

-But it's been in the family

-at some point many generations ago.

-Unfortunately, it's happened to me.

-It's one thing

-suffering from a condition...

-..but it's another

-to accept the condition.

-When did you acknowledge

-you were going blind?

-When I went to secondary school

-things quickly changed.

-My vision deteriorated.

-Classrooms were bigger.

-I wanted to sit at the back

-with the other lads...

-..but I couldn't see the blackboard.

-I couldn't do my work, so I left

-school with no qualifications.

-I'm angry with myself...

-..because

-I haven't been fair on myself.

-Did it turn you into

-a resentful person?

-Did you feel it was unfair

-that it was happening to you?

-Resentful, nasty, bitter.

-Grief-stricken.

-I became a kind of recluse for

-12 years when my sight deteriorated.

-I went to work but that was all..

-I didn't socialize much.

-I was 38 before I faced up to it

-and accepted the fact...

-..that I was going blind.

-I remember that morning well.

-I was walking from my home

-to my parents' house...

-..and I walked into a red post van.

-Can you believe

-I walked into a red van?

-That's when I knew

-I had to do something about it.

-I felt as if I'd reached

-a crossroads in my life.

-I either went this way...

-..and continued to be a recluse...

-..or I went this way

-and started a new life.

-So I went this way

-and started a new life.

-I went to bed early that night...

-..with my mind racing.

-I had to do something

-about my sight.

-A few months earlier

-I'd enquired about a guide dog.

-I'd picked up the forms

-but I'd put them away in a drawer.

-You must've hidden it well.

-You must've hidden it well.

-

-I'm an expert at hiding it.

-Few people realized

-I was visually impaired.

-You can't always tell

-that most people with RP are blind.

-They look very ordinary.

-Anyway, I sent the forms away...

-..and I was called to Bolton...

-..to the guide dog training centre.

-I did a series of assessments.

-Almost a year to the day later...

-..I was given my first dog, Joy,

-a black Labrador.

-I had to pick her up

-from Leamington Spa.

-I spent three weeks there training.

-I came home...

-..and people saw me

-as I was walking around.

-I was conscious

-I was passing people I knew.

-I'm sure they were saying,

-"What a miserable man."

-But I couldn't see them.

-People passed me

-but I didn't recognize them.

-I wanted to go out with the dog

-but I didn't know how to play it.

-There was only one thing for it,

-to get on with it.

-So I went out with the dog

-and thought, 'This is who I am.'

-If people accept me, fine,

-if they don't, it's their problem.

-You'd be surprised how many people

-I've grown up with...

-..and worked with over the years...

-..that are stunned into silence when

-they see me walking on the street.

-I look at them but they say nothing.

-I walk past them 10 yards

-and they start talking.

-That hurts because I'm the same

-person I was before losing my sight.

-But some people

-still don't talk to me.

-Is it because of the disability?

-I don't like the word disability,

-but is it because you're blind...

-..or because your anger

-changed your personality?

-I was angry with myself

-and angry with my family.

-People don't know what to say.

-They're afraid they might say

-something I don't want to hear.

-I've broad shoulders,

-they can say whatever they're like.

-With RP...

-..does it mean that your vision

-gradually deteriorates?

-What can you see at the moment?

-Can you tell the difference

-between light and dark?

-I can tell if the sun's out,

-if it's daylight and if it's dark.

-But the older I'm getting,

-the more difficult it becomes.

-Which means you have to get on with

-your life and make the most of it.

-Since bumping into the red van

-and reaching that crossroads...

-..you're determined

-to make the most of your time.

-Despite being blind, you've ridden

-a motorbike at 100mph.

-I've also

-abseiled down the Marquis' Tower.

-I've driven a car

-around Silverstone.

-I had the track to myself. Who'd

-share a track with a blind driver?

-Not many.

-Not many.

-

-I had an hour on the track.

-I consider life a gamble.

-Unfortunately, this is the card

-I've been dealt...

-..but I have to make the most of it.

-I've been in a situation...

-..where there's been

-no light at the end of the tunnel.

-I'd lost hope.

-But when I accepted my situation

-13 years ago...

-..and got my first guide dog...

-..my life changed.

-I'm as happy now

-as I was when I was a child.

-If I wake up

-tomorrow morning, great.

-It's up to me

-what I make of the future.

-The person, or the animal,

-who's opened the world up to you...

-..is sleeping at your feet.

-Kira is my second guide dog.

-Joy was the first.

-She was a black Labrador.

-Joy changed my life.

-She opened several doors.

-Kira's my second dog.

-I've had her for almost four years.

-How long does it take you

-to get used to a new guide dog?

-Joy and I

-got to know each other very well.

-It didn't take long.

-She was the perfect guide dog.

-Once her harness was on,

-she knew it was time to work.

-This one's different.

-Kira's unique. I'm surprised

-she's behaving herself.

-You said earlier you were surprised

-she qualified as a guide dog.

-But at the same time she amazes me.

-I'll tell you a little story,

-despite my wife's disapproval.

-I was walking along

-the A5 last year.

-As us men get older...

-..we need the loo more often.

-I knew there was a turning

-into the woods...

-..about a quarter of a mile ahead.

-I'd never been down there

-with Kira before.

-We came to the turning...

-..I hadn't given Kira any

-instruction about the turning...

-..but she bolted to the right.

-How she knew I wanted to go

-to the right, I don't know.

-She didn't change her footing, she

-just went straight down the path.

-There are times

-when she does her job well.

-When Kira wants to work,

-she works...

-..but it's always on her terms.

-There's no work in her

-at the moment, Mark!

-It's surprising

-she's so well behaved.

-I thought she would've

-jumped all over you.

-She's on her best behaviour today.

-Her trainers

-have been back several times.

-"Kira's not doing

-what it says on the tin."

-But every time

-the trainers come to the house...

-..they say, "You can always give

-her back. We'll find you another."

-But I couldn't. I've had her four

-years. She's part of the family.

-I'm getting used to her ways. I

-wouldn't change her for another dog.

-I'm still persevering with her.

-Thank you very much

-for keeping me company.

-It's been nice seeing you again.

-Good luck.

-Thank you.

-That's it for this week.

-Personal stories

-are given a platform here on S4C.

-If you have a story to tell,

-get in touch with us at Cadw Cwmni.

-Until next time,

-from me, John Hardy, goodbye.

-S4C Subtitles by Adnod Cyf.

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