Brian Clough The Frost Interview

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My guest tonight is Brian Clough.

APPLAUSE

Brian, it's a delight to have you with us.

I don't know which of your many quotes to start with

but it's been a very...very venturesome 12 months for you

because it's now, what, just over 12 months since you left Derby.

Would you like to rewrite the last 12 months a bit, completely or what?

No, it would take me many, many, many years.

It's been a nightmare on a lot of occasions, obviously.

After 12 months, to find yourself out of work is not very pleasant.

Do you think of yourself today as out of work?

Literally, of course. My profession is managing a football club.

At the moment, I am not doing that so obviously I'm out of work.

But you could be managing a football club, couldn't you?

You've had a couple of offers since Leeds, haven't you?

Yes, I have had a couple of offers.

But right at this particular time,

I'm not in employment regarding football, so I'm out of work.

What sort of offers have you had so far?

I've had a job to do a local radio programme.

- Really? - Aye.

They told me they had got some great personalities

involved in the local radio programme down here.

No, I have had a few offers, here and there.

I've just realised what you were talking about!

- Has it clicked? - Yes.

I thought you were talking about a local programme in Derby.

You're talking about my local radio.

- Yes. - In terms of...

LAUGHTER

We got there!

In terms of soccer, what have been the couple of offers

in soccer so far?

Just a couple of enquiries,

whether I was available to go back into football management.

Not in First Division, they have been in the Second...

One in the Second and one in the Third.

One in the Second and one in the Third?

Yes.

Would you go back to anything other than the First Division?

No, it is not a case of going back into, you know, set things

whether to go back into the First or Second,

I just wouldn't go back into football right at this present time.

And not for many, many months to come.

The last time I was employed, I rather got my fingers burnt.

I walked around... I was going around like that for weeks!

I wasn't there very long, at Leeds.

The sack really hit me right between the eyes.

How did it happen? How does someone who employed you

40-odd days earlier give you the sack?

- Does he say...? - Well, it's very special.

It's very special, the men with the ability to do that type of thing,

because 44 days ago, before I got the sack,

they were saying that they hoped I was there for life.

And then 44 days ago they're saying,

"I am not quite sure whether we've made the right decision."

I said to them, "I am absolutely certain

"I have made the wrong decision with you bloody lot."

And it went on those type of lines.

I see. And did he actually say in the end, Mr Cussins,

did he actually say, "You're sacked"?

Oh, no, it's never done as brutal as that.

That would be far too forthright,

that would be far too literally to the point.

I could have coped with that type of thing quite easily.

In football management you live with the sack,

you live with the thought of it in the back of your mind.

If it hits you between the eyes with those very words,

you don't really mind.

You've attuned to it and built up a resistance to it over the years.

It's done a little bit more subtle, it's done with a smile,

it's done with a...

You know, you're sitting on a settee perhaps in somebody's house.

I am assuming this is the way it's done - it is

the first time it has happened to me.

And this was how it was done

- in this particular case? - Yes.

When did they tell you they were going to give you a golden handshake

- or whatever? At the same time? - No, they didn't tell me.

Then it was a case of the conditions that I would leave the club.

You know, nobody sacks anybody where they just lie down and die.

Not after 44 days. Nobody does that, David.

But they gave you this golden payoff afterwards, did they?

Was that any consolation? That was £98,000, or something.

It was something going on to that. I paid a few bob tax, obviously.

LAUGHTER

It was a consolation at the time but never, never sufficient.

Money is never sufficient for anything.

Believe it or believe it not, it's never sufficient for anything.

Should you have known before you went that it would never work,

or could you have made it work if you had done it differently?

I could have made it work having had time.

Obviously, it's inevitable, I made a few mistakes during the 44 days.

What sort of mistakes?

Well, perhaps I didn't give them

chance enough to get over the guy that was there before me.

He was there for a long, long time.

Perhaps I wanted to, you know, get with them

the same feeling as they'd had with the other guy.

I am loath to mention him, you know.

If we can refrain from doing it, we'll do so.

It's like "the other House", of Commons -

you hate to mention him, why?

I hate to mention him because he's a very talented man

and I don't like him.

LAUGHTER

- That's a very... - Don't ask me why.

That is exactly why.

Here's a very talented man and his record is unsurpassable,

but I just don't happen to like him.

And I don't like the way he goes about football either.

Football is a game of opinion.

There are people in your profession perhaps don't like the way you

- do your bit. - I am sure.

You know, it makes the game go round.

Half the country don't like a Labour government.

It just happens that the other half do.

Why don't you want me to ask why you don't like him?

Because I can't tell you, it's impossible.

We would get closed down, David.

LAUGHTER

Do you want to experiment?

No. No, I am...

I have got Brighton suing Leeds for breaking a contract.

Yes.

That I am supposed to have broken which I did, obviously,

in certain aspects. But it was between Brighton and Leeds.

It was rather over my head.

I felt like one of these people that were sold many, many years ago

in the market. I was under contract to Brighton.

Leeds came in and they were trying to settle compensation.

It didn't quite work out and there's something going on in

the background at the moment, court wise,

so it makes it rather difficult.

Slightly complicated.

What about... You have had experience in the last year,

more than a year, but with three different chairmen -

with Mr Cussins, Mr Bamber and Mr Longson.

Do chairmen have the same characteristics or were they three

very different men to deal with?

A couple have had the same characteristics

because they were elderly gentlemen.

Michael Bamber was a little different,

he was more in my age bracket,

he was more the one that thought my way or wanted to get on my way.

You've got to have

communication between the people you work with.

I don't know whether you know your gaffers intimately but if

you don't, you better watch out,

you've got to know their problems.

When people get to 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, and you're perhaps not

quite 40 yet, then you tend to see things differently.

So the older chairmen, mostly, are the same.

The younger ones are a little bit better

and a little bit more on your wavelength.

But, I mean, you obviously handled it very well with

Mr Sam Longson for several years at Derby.

Did you lose your touch towards the end?

I am certain I lost something in the relationship between him,

because that was the crux of the whole matter.

Mr Longson and I worked remarkably well

but it was a stage we went through.

He'd not had any success as a chairman of a football club.

He'd never been chairman until I got there, for a start.

Then everything boomed, of course.

He used to say to me, "Whatever we do, just win something for me."

The gentleman was over 70.

You're not looking for another 49 years when you get to 70,

you want something very quickly.

And, of course, we won something.

Then having won it, outside influences tended to change.

Having won it, then he wanted to go all nice.

- Wanted you to go all nice? - Yes.

And that was impossible?

I'd wasn't impossible because I would have gone all nice

if he'd allowed me to mature.

But I got the bit between my teeth and I wanted to get on with it.

Could you have held on, could you have held on at Derby?

Oh, certainly, most certainly. I resigned because I detected a change.

Another gentleman came on the board and I detected a change.

They tried to stop the very thing that they'd pushed me

into originally regarding selling the club, television, newspapers,

all that type of thing.

And they tried to channel me and put the dampers down on me, so to speak.

They restricted me. You know, I just said I wasn't having it.

I was young and I didn't want to be restricted.

If they'd have come about five or six years later I am certain

I would have been at the stage where I would've accepted it.

Looking back now, do you wish you'd tried to hold on at Derby?

I have had many, many regrets at leaving Derby.

But having left and having made a decision,

I wouldn't for one second tell you I'd made the wrong one.

Would you tell yourself you'd made the wrong one?

I have asked myself many times, have I made the wrong one?

And sometimes, depending on mood, I've said, yes, you did.

And sometimes, most times, I've said no.

Because, at that time,

you do believe in doing things that you believe you're right in doing.

When you get to about 45, 50... How old are you, David?

- Erm...35! - Good lad.

You've got another ten years to go.

- Before this thing...? - Yes.

And then you might feel, you know,

that you perhaps have to calm down a little bit and do everything.

The thing that surprised me is I said to you, I think

we were talking in the canteen at London Weekend,

was how quickly you leapt into another job at a Third Division

team at Brighton, when, as it turned out a few weeks later,

Manchester City was available and I don't know who else was available.

Was that a mistake?

It was a mistake perhaps jumping in so quickly,

but I daren't tell you the very,

very words I said to you at that particular question,

but I couldn't bear sitting out of work,

being unemployed and sitting on my backside.

I used a different word to you, in actual fact.

- For sitting? - Yes.

I couldn't bear the thought of it, having been involved so long.

This word "unemployed", you know,

since a shadow and a thing down your spine of great fear.

Was that why you did the nightclub stint this last week?

Oh, no, I was kind of led into that.

It started off with a testimonial game for a lad at Stoke

in the first nightclub.

Somebody came along and said, "Would you like to do another one?"

I thought, well, to broaden one's horizons,

to get on with something, it wouldn't do any harm at all.

Because my job is dealing with people.

You meet a hell of a lot of different people in a nightclub.

What about dealing with people?

What about the people who work for you?

We've talked about the people dealing with the chairmen.

What about dealing with people, what about dealing with the people

you obviously motivated so well at Derby?

Why did you do that so well?

Erm...

If I did it well, thank you,

I did it because I placed implicit trust in them.

I don't believe in hiding things from anybody. Get it all out.

If we are working in a profession then there's no point

in having one hand behind your back.

Get it all out, it is a very, very difficult thing, on occasion, to do.

If you give them your problems and you in turn understand theirs,

and share everything with them, then you can't go wrong.

It's the only way to weld. I believe in talking.

I don't believe in...

Obviously I believe in talking, that's why I am here!

But I believe in communicating, I don't believe in shooting guns

and dropping bombs and that type of thing.

I just believe in talking to people.

You'd be amazed how many people want to talk and never get a chance.

When you're talking to players, do you give them

bad news on their own,

- good news in a group, or what? - Oh, no.

No, I believed in...

If we were a team of 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, depending on the squad,

I believed in dishing out anything collectively.

If there was any rollickings to go, I don't believe in hiding behind doors.

I believe in, as I say, getting it out in the open.

The same went for good news also.

It welds something, it stops any inhibitions, I believe.

Or it helps to stop inhibitions. So we get it all out.

I used to say that when we left the dressing room,

or when we left the football pitch, or when we left anything,

get out of that front door and have nothing on the back of your mind.

No worries, nobody weighting down on your shoulders,

no things you wished you should have said.

Just walk out, be tall, get out,

you've done a day's work irrespective of how well you have

done it, go home free and enjoy your wife and your children

and your home life and that type of thing.

Then come back and we will get at it again.

What about half-times in football matches?

Could you change a team's morale?

Is there a way of doing that, to go in when they're down and lift them?

There's a way of doing it if they believe in you.

And there's a way of motivating people and getting things across.

There's a way of either lifting them or damping them down depending

on the individual and depending on the character of the side.

There's a way of doing that, obviously.

If things aren't going well and you tell them

things aren't going well, too pronounced, then you have problems

because you'll drive them further into the ground.

It is essential to praise people.

Everybody puts out stick and you have to balance it.

You have to balance criticism with praise.

I've got a terrible problem at the moment

because I've got a couple of kids, I have three children, and obviously

I want them to do well and I want them to grow up beautiful.

My wife pours love and intelligence and everything into them

and I tend to go and say, "Come on, we've got to do this,

"this and this and this." I think,

I've forgotten the last time I said what beautiful children they were.

And you've got to find the balance.

Would you be upset...?

Is it two boys and a girl or two girls and a boy?

Two boys and a girl.

Would you like the boys to end up in football or would that worry you?

It would worry my wife, she's not too keen

because she's only met the people who run football,

she's not particularly interested in sport at all.

She hasn't fallen head over heels with that type of thing,

the people who run it. She's not basically interested in it.

I wouldn't mind if they want to go into football

but I wouldn't either force them or otherwise.

It's a great thing to have a choice.

I would love them to be good enough, to turn round and say,

"Yes, I want to play football." "No, I don't want to play football."

Or they might want to be a fitter or a plumber. Just a choice.

It's the best thing in life to have a choice.

It's a very short life, though, isn't it, a footballer's?

I remember Ralph Brand saying to me when I was up at Darlington,

near your old stomping ground.

He was saying he thought that because it's such a short life,

for many footballers everything after it is anticlimax.

He was saying, "I think it would be almost kinder

"if at the end of their playing lives,

"footballers were taken out and shot."

Yes, this is perfectly true. A lot of people do think this.

But this is where we have to educate ourselves - that there is

a life outside of football.

We do tend to be centred round it and we forget everybody else.

God gave us a bit of ability to kick a ball about on a football field

and be tend to forget everything else.

Suddenly at 33, 34,

we're out of it and we don't quite know how to fill the gaps.

This is lack of education. It's got to be.

I don't mean two and two and four and that type of thing,

but it's lack of broadening the mind and all that type of thing.

We have to work on this. You know, Steve Powell at Derby.

I spoke to his headmaster for hours and hours

and his headmaster wanted him to go to university.

He had got his O-levels at 15, his A-levels before he signed

at Derby for 16 and he was definitely university material.

I happened to believe he could make a career in football

and a highly successful one.

But there's no reason why he couldn't combine both.

And having got his O-levels and his A-levels, then play football,

and everybody wants to play football, you know,

then if he wanted to go on to university, having made

a fortune playing football, then the world is open to him.

And he can have the best of both worlds.

What about when your playing career came to an end?

You were on the top of a wave,

you'd got the 250 goals in record time, and all that sort of thing.

What was it, Boxing Day '62

- when you were injured? - Yes.

You tried to make a comeback or two after that but...

- 18 months. - You were done for after 18 months.

Did you know the moment that injury happened that it was really serious?

Or was it a dawning realisation? Or what?

I knew it was serious, obviously,

because somebody stuck me in hospital.

I'd not only done my knee, I happened to bang my head.

A lot of people put it down

to the way I have behaved in the last ten years!

It was a hard ground.

I was stuck in hospital and that type of thing

and came round a few days later.

But you never believe at 27 you're finished at anything, do you?

Especially if you are an athlete.

I'd been fortunate enough never to be injured before.

I was stuck in a hospital bed and specialists and plaster

and all those normal type of things.

But you never believe you're finished.

I trained for 18 months, I managed to get back onto a football field.

It was just that I didn't get back as well as I left it.

There was insurance money involved and all that type of thing.

Big business in those days, it was only an amount of £40,000,

but in those days it was big.

There's always outside influences pushing and pushing.

I believe I could have played in the minor leagues quite easily.

I have trained now since I left...

Since I was a player, I've trained four or five days a week,

I've never had any trouble.

But there was a gap then in your life, you were talking about gaps.

How long did it take you to realise what you were going to do next?

Well, I trained for 18 months.

I had a period, it was only about six or seven or eight months,

where I trained the youth side at Sunderland.

Then I was offered a job at Hartlepool.

I had a testimonial match,

I got myself a few bob so that gave me a bit of security.

We're all looking for security. Everybody.

This is one of the troubles in life at the moment,

everybody wants security and they're not getting it.

Have you got a feeling of security today?

I've got a feeling of security regarding a few bob, obviously.

I've got a few bob more than I had 10, 15 years ago.

But I haven't got total security

because total security means to be involved in something you

implicitly believe in and doing what you want to do.

Security is not riding around in a Rolls-Royce having enough cash

to live for the rest of your life. Security has got to start here.

The money in the bank, sometimes you forget about that.

What's the dreadful thing about being - you said it's terrifying -

out of a job, unemployed, you were saying you are the moment?

Well, the rejection, for a start, was terrifying.

Having been sacked, the rejection. That's hard to bear.

Irrespective of how much you tell them they're wrong

and you tell yourself they're wrong, it's still hard to bear.

The feeling of being out of the one thing that you feel you can do best.

That's a terrible fear.

And being a reasonably young man and know that you want to work

till you are 60 or 65 or 55, when our pensions start, whenever it is.

And, erm...that's a feeling.

And the fear is that you won't get back, is it?

No, not only that, because I'm thick enough to believe I'll get back.

There was that marvellous quote...

Either thick enough or talented enough, one of the two.

You said, this was in '72, marvellous quote about, "I've got

"a lifetime to go, I'm on the threshold of a career as a manager.

"I got cheated as a player, I don't want to be cheated as a manager."

Is there a danger you could be cheated as a manager?

There is always a danger of that, yes.

The career as a player was cut short and there's always a danger,

depending on the people you work with

and depending on your ability to cope and to accept

and that type of thing, that your managerial career can be cut short.

I'm not saying I've got talent, although if you press me

- I will say I have it! - Do you have talent?

I've got talent as a football manager, yes.

And I do believe that we're going through a period,

irrespective of what career you're talking about,

and any particular career we've got in the audience,

everybody is short of talent, you know.

I don't mean everybody as an individual,

I mean every particular concern is short of talent.

It's priority at the moment, talent.

So anybody that's got it, you know,

we can hold our head above water and get on with our job.

How long do you think you would like it to be before you're

back in the job you really like doing?

I would like it to be sufficiently to put my house in order

because when you're involved sufficiently in a career as I was,

you miss out on a million things.

You miss out on your home life, you go through...

I read a quote once by Bill Nicholson, and he also told me

it personally, that when his daughter was getting married in a church,

he suddenly stood there in the church and thought,

"Where have the 18 or 19 or 20 years gone that she was a little baby?"

And he'd missed out completely on that particular aspect of his life.

I will never, ever, ever allow that to happen to me.

Because that is total failure as a human being,

not as a football manager.

But at the same time,

one of the things that must sort of add to your schizophrenia

at the moment is the guy whose name you don't like to mention,

who is now England's team manager.

As you see him operating

and you disagree with a lot of his tactics over the years,

do you think about that England job, "That could have been mine"?

I think about it. I'm not sure whether it could have been mine,

it was a possibility, obviously, because everybody's got a chance.

I think about...

I am not one to envy people

because I've always had reasonable things going for me.

People who envy things, they envy the things they can't get.

I have never felt envy in my life, I have been very fortunate there.

I haven't been jealous of many people, I'm very fortunate there,

but I do feel envy when this particular man has got this

particular job. And this is the thing I've got to dismiss from my mind.

Very important. Envy crucifies you. Jealousy? Blow me.

- Really destructive emotion? - Oh, it is murder.

If you spend any time of your day being jealous...

You know, the guys that give you stick, or have given you stick,

or will continue to give you stick, it's 90% jealousy.

And they must be right bums.

Jealousy certainly is very, very destructive.

Oh, it's terrible. It must be terrible.

Did you think he did a good job over the Czechoslovakia match?

I thought he did a superb job. Nobody could have done any better,

to win 3-0 and to fill Wembley was absolutely magic on his behalf.

On that particular one,

- he did very well. - Yes.

How many football matches have you seen since you left Leeds?

One.

- Only one? - One.

I went to Amsterdam, I wanted to get away for a few days,

I went to Amsterdam with Stoke City when they played Ajax.

I had four beautiful days in Amsterdam.

The weather was gorgeous, the sights were just as...

How long is it since you've been there?

A couple of years, it is beautiful.

It is just the same. Absolutely gorgeous.

Everything about the place is magic.

But you haven't seen a single match...?

- In England? No. - Why is that?

I just can't bring myself to go along. You know, I just...

I want a period out of it, I want to cool down, I want to sit back

and look at it.

You'd find it painful to go to a match today?

I would find it very painful at the moment, yes.

I was going to ask you, I was interested, I remember you made

that £400,000 bid for Keith Weller of Leicester when you were at Derby.

I wondered if you thought there are any players in English football

who are worth more than that today?

I'm not sure. That price depended...

That price was purely made up of what he was going to do to Derby County.

You know, it could be argued Keith wasn't worth that amount of money.

But at that particular time, he was worth it to Derby.

So I would have to be involved with a side to see how much

I would go overboard regarding a particular player

depending on the needs of the particular team.

I was talking to some of the audience before we started.

Some of them are Tottenham supporters and some are something something.

I'd spend a million quid trying to buy a player for Tottenham

or something like that because they're having a bad time.

LAUGHTER

If I thought it would get Tottenham from there to there,

because that is all I'm working for, if I was manager of Tottenham,

to get them from there to there.

If we had a million quid and if I had to helped to make the million,

as I did at Derby, then obviously I would feel

justified in spending it and backing my own judgment.

Why are all the London clubs doing so badly at the moment?

Because basically they have bad sides.

LAUGHTER

That could have a lot to do with it.

You know, that's not a flippant answer, honestly.

They are just bad sides.

And I don't think... Living down in London, I think

the managers have got problems managing football clubs down here.

I think the outside entertainment is a bit of a problem

to training athletes.

I think there are too many outside, you know,

attractions to get them away from football.

How many managers in the game today have your total respect?

Erm...

Well, the guy that had my total respect, obviously,

finished a few months ago at Liverpool.

He's a one-off, there will never be another one like Shanks.

Never at all. He absolutely lives the game, or did live it.

I am sure he's doing it now.

He was totally honest, he believed implicitly in what he was doing.

There was never, ever a doubt when you either talked to him,

met him or anything. He was above board. He was above board.

He was one off.

The last guy the was one off, he was the one that runs us all, you know.

There are other people you admire too, aren't there?

A lot of people admire you and write you letters and ask you questions.

There's a lot of people I admire.

- In football or in...? - Sport or wider.

I admire people who entertain.

You know, I think to laugh, if Eric Morecambe makes me laugh,

I think that is very, very special.

I think if Dick Emery puts a pair of high heels on and comes out

dressed like a bird, that is very special if it makes me laugh.

I don't think we laugh enough.

I certainly don't laugh enough so when it comes across, it is

very, very special.

Who is the sportsman or the politician you admire?

What sort of people do you admire in those areas?

The politicians?

Well, we're off politicians a bit at the moment. I personally am.

I was stars in the sky about politicians, I thought

they were going to put it all right. But they keep failing, you know.

It is the remarkable part about it, I canvass for my local MP,

who I happen to believe is a very sincere man and a good MP.

But I look at politicians broadly and they come back to us having made such

a mess of it and say, "Put us back there again." I find this incredible.

I find it an aspect of political life where

they have the gall to knock on your door and tell us that we are in

trouble, problems, we are

all going to have to pull our belts in and I have paid them,

or I have contributed for them to work to put it right.

We pay their wages, and they make such a mess of it

and then they come back and ask us to do it all again.

You've either got to be, you know,

as thick as hell to do that or a very talented man.

LAUGHTER

They keep doing it.

So there are not many politicians who win your instant respect?

No, Phillip Whitehead is my local MP and I have got

a lot of time for Phillip, and I have done a lot of work for him.

I am a socialist through and through.

I went along and showed my face for Michael Foot.

He didn't really need me to show my face but I just wanted to say hello.

I met him a few times and I like to listen to him. I like to believe.

I have got to believe.

I have got to believe in what we are doing is something good.

Because if I don't believe that, it destroys me.

I am so sensitive to politicians and so sensitive to being

a socialist that every time they make a mess of it, I blush.

And there I am...

It's a rather touching thought, you blushing.

Well, it does happen. It does happen.

And I feel for people who make messes of things and if they do it,

I blush for them. I feel for Ted Heath.

I am not saying he made a balls of it, I just feel for him.

He's got a lot of pressure on him at the moment.

He's standing there and he's taking it all and I feel for him

and I admire him.

Do you think, out of all of this year of travail which you have

had one way or another, that what you say about Ted Heath there is

more sympathetic than it might have been a year ago?

What you say about Sir Alf Ramsey these days is more sympathetic

than what you said a few months ago?

Do you think you've matured a bit in the last year,

become more sympathetic to people who get a rough deal

because you feel you have had one?

Well, it is instinct.

The answer to that is, I think, yes.

I think it's instinct on everybody's part that if they're having

a rough time, or have things going badly for them, they switch camps.

I got a lot of letters from people, when I left Leeds I got hundreds and

hundreds of letters saying I'd had a raw deal, when I was sacked at Leeds.

Half of the letters, I'm certain, were saying before I was sacked,

"I hope he gets the sack." You know, that type of thing.

It's an instinct, it's characteristic of us in this country.

- But it's a good one. - But you've gone the other way,

you are now more sympathetic to people who get a bad deal?

Well, I'm sympathetic completely to them.

I'm sympathetic for the people who have got their back against the wall

because this is when it's tight.

This is when they want your support.

They don't want it when they're on top.

Alf didn't want my support when he was manager of England.

He was picking his side, he had the best job in the country.

The top job in football.

The one we all would love to have. He didn't want my sympathy.

He wants it now when he's out of work.

One last question -

you're a natural for this question, really -

which is, when you die and someone writes your epitaph,

what would you like them to say about you?

Oh, no. No, I've never, ever given it a thought, about dying.

It frightens me.

It frightens me to think that I'll ever get to the stage where

I will contemplate dying.

You know, they tell me it happens to us all but I've not quite

got into that bracket yet where I'm thinking about it.

When they write it... I'll tell you what, I don't want anybody to write

anything, I just want a couple of people round there when I die.

Great answer. Good night.

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