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This programme contains some strong language from the start | 0:00:02 | 0:00:08 | |
and scenes which some viewers may find upsetting. | 0:00:08 | 0:00:14 | |
These animals are extraordinarily cognitively complex. | 0:00:20 | 0:00:24 | |
They have their own cultures... | 0:00:25 | 0:00:27 | |
..they're self-conscious, autonomous and self-determinate. | 0:00:30 | 0:00:34 | |
They have a theory of mind so that they not only know that they | 0:00:35 | 0:00:39 | |
have a mind, but they know others have a mind. | 0:00:39 | 0:00:41 | |
They understand that they are individuals who existed | 0:00:44 | 0:00:48 | |
yesterday and will exist tomorrow because, when you imprison | 0:00:48 | 0:00:51 | |
a chimpanzee, the chimpanzee understands that tomorrow he's going | 0:00:51 | 0:00:55 | |
to be imprisoned and, as far as he knows, it's not going to end. | 0:00:55 | 0:00:59 | |
What we are trying to do is change the way people view | 0:01:08 | 0:01:12 | |
nonhuman animals because, right now, the line between human beings | 0:01:12 | 0:01:17 | |
and nonhuman animals is at an irrational place. | 0:01:17 | 0:01:20 | |
It's, "Are you a human? You have rights. | 0:01:21 | 0:01:23 | |
"You're not a human, you don't." We're saying that's wrong. | 0:01:23 | 0:01:27 | |
It's a hell of a war, | 0:01:31 | 0:01:32 | |
there's going to be a lot of battles in the war, but it's time to begin. | 0:01:32 | 0:01:36 | |
It's amazing. | 0:01:46 | 0:01:47 | |
Steve, did you ever think...? | 0:01:47 | 0:01:50 | |
Exactly. | 0:01:53 | 0:01:55 | |
Exactly. | 0:01:55 | 0:01:56 | |
-GAVEL BANGS -All rise. | 0:01:56 | 0:01:57 | |
Hear ye, hear ye, hear ye. | 0:01:59 | 0:02:00 | |
All persons having business | 0:02:00 | 0:02:02 | |
for this appellant division | 0:02:02 | 0:02:03 | |
of the Supreme Court in the state of New York, let them draw near. | 0:02:03 | 0:02:08 | |
First case is the matter of Nonhuman Rights Project v Lavery. | 0:02:08 | 0:02:12 | |
Mr Wise, I believe you're arguing. | 0:02:12 | 0:02:14 | |
Thank you, Your Honour, may it please the court. | 0:02:14 | 0:02:18 | |
My name is Stephen Wise... | 0:02:18 | 0:02:20 | |
TYPING | 0:02:42 | 0:02:44 | |
PHONE RINGS | 0:02:52 | 0:02:55 | |
Ugh... | 0:02:55 | 0:02:56 | |
Yup. | 0:02:56 | 0:02:57 | |
'Just a few things. I just got an e-mail from Stephanie...' | 0:02:57 | 0:03:03 | |
OK. | 0:03:03 | 0:03:04 | |
We want to make sure that the judge has as small a number of | 0:03:04 | 0:03:07 | |
reasons for throwing us out without breaching the merits of the case. | 0:03:07 | 0:03:11 | |
-Yeah, well, keep me informed. -'Sure.' | 0:03:12 | 0:03:15 | |
That's it. | 0:03:28 | 0:03:29 | |
That is the one that someone gave me in 1979, | 0:03:29 | 0:03:31 | |
that was the first time I opened this book up and said, | 0:03:31 | 0:03:35 | |
"Holy smoke, I had no idea that we were treating animals this way." | 0:03:35 | 0:03:38 | |
MONKEYS SCREAM | 0:03:38 | 0:03:40 | |
At one point, this was the only book in the library. | 0:03:42 | 0:03:44 | |
Everything else, really, has gathered as a result of this book. | 0:03:44 | 0:03:47 | |
When I read Peter Singer's book, I had kind of an epiphany | 0:03:51 | 0:03:55 | |
because I thought, "Well, why am I a lawyer? | 0:03:55 | 0:03:57 | |
"I'm a lawyer in order to pursue justice, | 0:03:57 | 0:04:00 | |
"to try to raise up the underdog," and I thought, | 0:04:00 | 0:04:03 | |
"I can't think of beings who are more brutalised than | 0:04:03 | 0:04:07 | |
"this in greater numbers and if I spend my life working on their | 0:04:07 | 0:04:10 | |
"behalf, I will have done more than | 0:04:10 | 0:04:12 | |
"anything I could do as a human lawyer." | 0:04:12 | 0:04:14 | |
So I immediately changed the focus of my law practice, | 0:04:15 | 0:04:19 | |
almost on a dime. My law partner was stunned. | 0:04:19 | 0:04:21 | |
HE CHUCKLES | 0:04:21 | 0:04:22 | |
When I see nonhuman animals who are being horribly used | 0:04:26 | 0:04:30 | |
and exploited and who are killed by the millions or the billions, | 0:04:30 | 0:04:33 | |
I see all these lives being taken for frivolous human reasons | 0:04:33 | 0:04:37 | |
-and it's all they have, just like it's all -I -have. | 0:04:37 | 0:04:41 | |
And I don't believe | 0:04:41 | 0:04:43 | |
that there's something extraordinarily exceptional | 0:04:43 | 0:04:47 | |
about every human being that they somehow have | 0:04:47 | 0:04:50 | |
something that allows them to be the masters of the world | 0:04:50 | 0:04:53 | |
and all the nonhuman animals are the slaves of the world. | 0:04:53 | 0:04:56 | |
So I decided to bring the whole problem to the attention | 0:04:58 | 0:05:01 | |
of the legal system and then do something about it. | 0:05:01 | 0:05:05 | |
All we can do is kick the first door open, | 0:05:06 | 0:05:08 | |
that's what we're trying to do, we're trying to kick the door open | 0:05:08 | 0:05:12 | |
and have people consider the personhood of nonhuman animals. | 0:05:12 | 0:05:16 | |
I taught at Harvard, | 0:05:22 | 0:05:24 | |
the first class at what I call animal rights law | 0:05:24 | 0:05:26 | |
in the spring of 2000. | 0:05:26 | 0:05:28 | |
So it was the first time Harvard ever had a course like that. | 0:05:28 | 0:05:32 | |
People laughed at me and they barked when I went into a courtroom | 0:05:32 | 0:05:35 | |
and people thought what I was doing was exceedingly odd. | 0:05:35 | 0:05:38 | |
Isn't this our culture gone awry here a little bit? | 0:05:38 | 0:05:41 | |
What you do is you erase the line that has been artificially | 0:05:41 | 0:05:45 | |
drawn between human beings and nonhuman beings. | 0:05:45 | 0:05:47 | |
-That's not an artificial line. -It IS an artificial line. | 0:05:47 | 0:05:50 | |
They are not human beings, they don't have humanlike | 0:05:50 | 0:05:53 | |
intelligence and putting them | 0:05:53 | 0:05:55 | |
on the same legal standing as a human being, that's insanity. | 0:05:55 | 0:05:59 | |
Without further ado, Steve Wise. | 0:06:01 | 0:06:03 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:06:03 | 0:06:05 | |
It is great to be back here. I feel like a Borscht Belt comedian here. | 0:06:08 | 0:06:13 | |
I have been practising animal protection law - | 0:06:13 | 0:06:15 | |
this kind I call doggy death cases - for 30 years. | 0:06:15 | 0:06:19 | |
Dogs who are ordered killed because they were very bad dogs. | 0:06:19 | 0:06:23 | |
But I thought to myself, "I can save five or six dogs' lives a year | 0:06:23 | 0:06:28 | |
"and save some other animals too and that should be enough to | 0:06:28 | 0:06:32 | |
"get me into heaven," but the problem is | 0:06:32 | 0:06:34 | |
is that, in the United States alone, | 0:06:34 | 0:06:36 | |
for every beat of my heart, 160 animals are killed. | 0:06:36 | 0:06:40 | |
So I can work for the next 40 or 50 years | 0:06:40 | 0:06:42 | |
and I can save the lives of one heartbeat's worth | 0:06:42 | 0:06:44 | |
of animals. I didn't want to do that. | 0:06:44 | 0:06:47 | |
So I helped form the Nonhuman Rights Project. | 0:06:47 | 0:06:50 | |
And now we've been laying the groundwork for the first | 0:06:50 | 0:06:55 | |
lawsuits that are going to truly, | 0:06:55 | 0:06:58 | |
seriously take on the idea of whether a nonhuman animal has | 0:06:58 | 0:07:04 | |
to be a legal thing or whether or not | 0:07:04 | 0:07:06 | |
it's possible to be a legal person. There's this thick legal wall. | 0:07:06 | 0:07:10 | |
On one side of the wall are us now, all of us human beings. | 0:07:10 | 0:07:14 | |
We all have legal rights, we all have the capacity, we are | 0:07:14 | 0:07:18 | |
all persons, we have the capacity for legal rights. | 0:07:18 | 0:07:21 | |
On the other side of the wall is the rest of creation | 0:07:21 | 0:07:24 | |
and every nonhuman animal is seen as a legal thing, rightless. | 0:07:24 | 0:07:30 | |
So how do you get the attention of the judge? | 0:07:30 | 0:07:33 | |
How do you say, | 0:07:33 | 0:07:34 | |
"Hey, I shouldn't be a thing, I should be a legal person"? | 0:07:34 | 0:07:38 | |
The judge could say, "I'm sorry, is someone saying something? | 0:07:38 | 0:07:41 | |
"I don't see you. | 0:07:41 | 0:07:42 | |
"You're invisible, you're invisible to the law because you're a thing." | 0:07:42 | 0:07:45 | |
And when you start studying the history of the common law, | 0:07:45 | 0:07:48 | |
you realise that women were not persons for many purposes, | 0:07:48 | 0:07:51 | |
children weren't, and slaves. | 0:07:51 | 0:07:54 | |
The word "personhood" is extraordinarily complex. | 0:07:54 | 0:07:58 | |
In fact, most people thought about it | 0:07:58 | 0:08:00 | |
when the Citizens United case came down. | 0:08:00 | 0:08:02 | |
For the first time in their life, it dawned on them | 0:08:02 | 0:08:04 | |
that an entity that was not a human could be a person. | 0:08:04 | 0:08:08 | |
So, for example, now humans are persons, | 0:08:08 | 0:08:11 | |
but so can a corporation, so can a ship, so can a partnership. | 0:08:11 | 0:08:14 | |
And I argue that these nonhuman animals, | 0:08:14 | 0:08:17 | |
all four species of great apes, | 0:08:17 | 0:08:18 | |
all of the elephants, | 0:08:18 | 0:08:20 | |
all the cetaceans, are so cognitively | 0:08:20 | 0:08:22 | |
complicated that these beings should be persons today | 0:08:22 | 0:08:25 | |
and they should have certain kinds of rights | 0:08:25 | 0:08:28 | |
that are fundamental to them. | 0:08:28 | 0:08:30 | |
So the purpose of the Nonhuman Rights Project is to persuade | 0:08:30 | 0:08:33 | |
a court to make a legal punch through that wall. | 0:08:33 | 0:08:37 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:08:37 | 0:08:39 | |
Steve, this is a case that presents the opportunity for the first | 0:08:40 | 0:08:43 | |
time to acknowledge animals as having legal rights. | 0:08:43 | 0:08:47 | |
Check. | 0:08:47 | 0:08:48 | |
-That's right. -And do we really want to do that... | 0:08:48 | 0:08:51 | |
in the face of the potential consequences that would | 0:08:51 | 0:08:54 | |
flow from it? | 0:08:54 | 0:08:56 | |
I'm just talking about the very few animals that we're thinking of | 0:08:56 | 0:08:59 | |
at the beginning. | 0:08:59 | 0:09:01 | |
We're talking about apes, we're talking about cetaceans, | 0:09:01 | 0:09:04 | |
-we're talking about elephants. -And why those? | 0:09:04 | 0:09:07 | |
Why are those going to be a different set? | 0:09:07 | 0:09:09 | |
First of all, they're not native to the United States. | 0:09:09 | 0:09:12 | |
They don't have a large economic value, | 0:09:12 | 0:09:16 | |
there's been a lot of research done on them, | 0:09:16 | 0:09:19 | |
cognitive research that kind of reverberated in ways in which | 0:09:19 | 0:09:22 | |
we can identify with them. | 0:09:22 | 0:09:24 | |
The slippery slope moves you | 0:09:24 | 0:09:25 | |
immediately to the dogs and cats, doesn't it? | 0:09:25 | 0:09:27 | |
Because if you do that for this one animal, | 0:09:27 | 0:09:29 | |
you've done it for all animals. | 0:09:29 | 0:09:31 | |
Well, we're not asking that a chicken have rights or that a cow | 0:09:31 | 0:09:34 | |
have rights or that they even be deemed legal persons. | 0:09:34 | 0:09:36 | |
What we're saying is that this gorilla or this dolphin... | 0:09:36 | 0:09:40 | |
But if the judge lets this happen, | 0:09:40 | 0:09:41 | |
PETA's going to file a suit the next day and go for chickens. | 0:09:41 | 0:09:44 | |
And we'll have to see what their arguments are. | 0:09:44 | 0:09:48 | |
It's kind of terra nova. | 0:09:49 | 0:09:50 | |
People haven't tried it, so we have to figure out what we can do | 0:09:50 | 0:09:55 | |
but we know that where they are now is wrong. | 0:09:55 | 0:09:58 | |
The Nonhuman Rights Project is planning | 0:10:04 | 0:10:07 | |
on bringing probably two suits | 0:10:07 | 0:10:09 | |
in 2013 in two states in the United States. | 0:10:09 | 0:10:14 | |
-These are really... -'Which states?' | 0:10:14 | 0:10:16 | |
Two states, we haven't yet chosen those states. | 0:10:16 | 0:10:19 | |
We have about 70, that's seven-zero, volunteers. | 0:10:19 | 0:10:23 | |
They're law professors or they're lawyers or they're law students. | 0:10:23 | 0:10:27 | |
Liz! How are you? LAUGHTER | 0:10:27 | 0:10:31 | |
So what we want to do is try to figure out, through our work today, | 0:10:31 | 0:10:35 | |
the way that we're going to win these suits. | 0:10:35 | 0:10:37 | |
We have to understand how judges think. | 0:10:37 | 0:10:40 | |
Right, one of the hurdles that we're going to have to overcome | 0:10:40 | 0:10:44 | |
is the judge saying, "Listen, you're animal welfare people - | 0:10:44 | 0:10:48 | |
"you have the Animal Welfare Act, you have humane slaughter. | 0:10:48 | 0:10:51 | |
"Why isn't that enough?" | 0:10:51 | 0:10:52 | |
That raises a whole other issue, which is - | 0:10:52 | 0:10:56 | |
how do we characterise this case? | 0:10:56 | 0:10:58 | |
Because if I am the other side, | 0:10:58 | 0:11:00 | |
I want to characterise it exactly in that way. | 0:11:00 | 0:11:02 | |
"Hey, Judge, this is an animal case," and we're saying, | 0:11:02 | 0:11:05 | |
"Hey, Judge, this is a civil liberties case." | 0:11:05 | 0:11:07 | |
This is not an animal welfare case. | 0:11:07 | 0:11:09 | |
-This is a "human rights" case. -Right. | 0:11:09 | 0:11:12 | |
Because no court has ever been asked to decide to what degree | 0:11:12 | 0:11:16 | |
a nonhuman animal should be entitled to equality because of... | 0:11:16 | 0:11:19 | |
-because we're like them. -Right. | 0:11:19 | 0:11:22 | |
You know, the animals that we're looking at most closely | 0:11:24 | 0:11:26 | |
are the different species of great apes because they're really, | 0:11:26 | 0:11:29 | |
really smart, so I'm looking to speak to the world's experts in... | 0:11:29 | 0:11:33 | |
..in those areas, all the people who study those specific animals. | 0:11:34 | 0:11:37 | |
Especially the cognition. | 0:11:37 | 0:11:39 | |
Those are the people that I'm trying to track down. | 0:11:39 | 0:11:42 | |
CHIMPS WHOOP | 0:11:51 | 0:11:54 | |
Hey, Tatu, Tatu. | 0:11:57 | 0:12:00 | |
She's saying "milk". | 0:12:02 | 0:12:04 | |
Who wants milk? Can you sign? | 0:12:06 | 0:12:09 | |
"Tatu." | 0:12:10 | 0:12:12 | |
What colour is the milk? Do you remember? | 0:12:12 | 0:12:15 | |
White, yes. You're so smart! | 0:12:17 | 0:12:20 | |
TATU WHOOPS SHE MIMICS | 0:12:22 | 0:12:24 | |
Tatu was cross-fostered by Allen and Trixie Gardner, | 0:12:29 | 0:12:32 | |
so when she was just two days old, she joined this cross-fostering | 0:12:32 | 0:12:36 | |
project, meaning that she was raised exactly like a human child. | 0:12:36 | 0:12:40 | |
She learned to use spoons, she sat in a high chair, she wore bibs, | 0:12:41 | 0:12:45 | |
she learned to use the potty, she had a bath every night. | 0:12:45 | 0:12:49 | |
So, in that environment, from the humans she acquired her signs. | 0:12:50 | 0:12:54 | |
The sign language stuff is really nice evidence for the project | 0:13:02 | 0:13:05 | |
Steven's doing. | 0:13:05 | 0:13:08 | |
When people see the chimps signing, | 0:13:08 | 0:13:10 | |
they see nonhumans in a completely different light, | 0:13:10 | 0:13:13 | |
cos they're like, "Wait a minute, they just said something." | 0:13:13 | 0:13:17 | |
-Hello. -Nice to meet you. -Nice to meet you. -Yeah. | 0:13:20 | 0:13:22 | |
Thanks for helping us. | 0:13:22 | 0:13:24 | |
I'm Steve's wife, Gail. Hi, how are you? | 0:13:24 | 0:13:25 | |
Well, I actually went to a talk many years ago | 0:13:25 | 0:13:28 | |
and it was the beginning of you talking about this stuff. | 0:13:28 | 0:13:30 | |
Yeah, we used to talk about what we were thinking of doing and then what | 0:13:30 | 0:13:33 | |
we were planning on doing, and now | 0:13:33 | 0:13:35 | |
we talk about what we're doing. Yes. | 0:13:35 | 0:13:37 | |
I'm really interested in the signing, | 0:13:37 | 0:13:38 | |
what sort of signing has gone on since the two chimpanzees | 0:13:38 | 0:13:42 | |
have moved here. | 0:13:42 | 0:13:43 | |
-Well... -Between themselves and with others too. | 0:13:43 | 0:13:45 | |
Yeah, they're signing with the other chimps. I'm excited. Yeah. | 0:13:45 | 0:13:49 | |
-TATU PANTS -That's Tatu. | 0:13:50 | 0:13:53 | |
-She's saying, "Chase, chase." -Just like that? That's "chase"? | 0:13:57 | 0:14:00 | |
That's "chase". | 0:14:00 | 0:14:01 | |
This is "coffee", so you've got to be careful! | 0:14:01 | 0:14:05 | |
Yeah, interesting. | 0:14:05 | 0:14:06 | |
Now she's saying, "Black, black." Black's her favourite colour. | 0:14:07 | 0:14:10 | |
-Uh-huh. -You can see black clothes, the water and the trees | 0:14:10 | 0:14:15 | |
and then she's signing "tree". So different than where they were. | 0:14:15 | 0:14:19 | |
It's not freedom by any stretch of the means, but still... | 0:14:19 | 0:14:22 | |
You know, they're all institutionalised in research | 0:14:24 | 0:14:27 | |
or in captive situations, | 0:14:27 | 0:14:29 | |
so they have the need to be close | 0:14:29 | 0:14:31 | |
to caging and to be in a confined space. | 0:14:31 | 0:14:33 | |
You know, they don't climb trees, | 0:14:33 | 0:14:35 | |
they don't use some of the things we have here. | 0:14:35 | 0:14:38 | |
We'll go take a look at the island areas. | 0:14:38 | 0:14:40 | |
You know, it's outdoor space without bars over your head, but... | 0:14:40 | 0:14:43 | |
That's OK because it's there | 0:14:43 | 0:14:44 | |
-and they want it, they have it. -Autonomy. | 0:14:44 | 0:14:47 | |
-Autonomy is what I talk about because we value it so much. -We do. | 0:14:47 | 0:14:50 | |
And when we punish people, we punish them by taking away | 0:14:50 | 0:14:53 | |
their autonomy and that's really what putting you in prison is. | 0:14:53 | 0:14:57 | |
It's stripping you of your autonomy in every way. | 0:14:57 | 0:15:00 | |
And that's a terrible, terrible punishment for you. | 0:15:00 | 0:15:03 | |
Breaks my heart. | 0:15:03 | 0:15:04 | |
In Japan, there was a chimpanzee colony | 0:15:19 | 0:15:22 | |
and then the place built | 0:15:22 | 0:15:24 | |
a kind of lab that jutted into the place | 0:15:24 | 0:15:27 | |
where the chimpanzees were outside. | 0:15:27 | 0:15:30 | |
And then they had computer terminals inside and outside | 0:15:30 | 0:15:33 | |
and that's where they have the experiments about the memory. | 0:15:33 | 0:15:37 | |
They, like, flash something on the screen for, like, a quarter second. | 0:15:37 | 0:15:40 | |
They'll flash a series of numbers and then they cover up | 0:15:40 | 0:15:42 | |
the numbers in, like, a tenth of a second and then the chimpanzees can | 0:15:42 | 0:15:47 | |
then recall what the numbers were and press them in the right order. | 0:15:47 | 0:15:50 | |
I did that, I was not as good as the chimpanzees. | 0:15:50 | 0:15:53 | |
I know you want to see him. I KNOW you want to see him. | 0:16:09 | 0:16:12 | |
-When he's ready. We can only go to people when they're ready. -OK. | 0:16:14 | 0:16:19 | |
He would like to learn a click language. | 0:16:22 | 0:16:25 | |
If we knew a click language, we could probably... | 0:16:25 | 0:16:28 | |
instil it in Tika. | 0:16:28 | 0:16:30 | |
YELPING | 0:16:30 | 0:16:32 | |
You can see that Kanzi's already asking for you to talk to him. | 0:16:34 | 0:16:38 | |
You want me to come in and see you? | 0:16:38 | 0:16:40 | |
Yeah, he wants me to come in and see him right now. | 0:16:40 | 0:16:43 | |
-OK, go ahead. -MACHINE: -'Zoo, ball.' | 0:16:50 | 0:16:52 | |
-'Question - visitors have ball.' -Do you have a ball? | 0:16:55 | 0:17:00 | |
Kanzi wants to know if you have a ball. | 0:17:02 | 0:17:04 | |
Is this the ball or is it a bigger ball? | 0:17:04 | 0:17:06 | |
Kanzi? | 0:17:07 | 0:17:09 | |
Come say "big" if you want a big ball. | 0:17:09 | 0:17:13 | |
Little ball. Is that what you want? You want that little ball? | 0:17:13 | 0:17:17 | |
Kanzi can understand all kinds of things, | 0:17:17 | 0:17:19 | |
all kinds of novel sentences. | 0:17:19 | 0:17:21 | |
Almost anything. | 0:17:21 | 0:17:23 | |
I'm going to put on my mask | 0:17:23 | 0:17:24 | |
and we're going to try a sentence for Kanzi, OK? | 0:17:24 | 0:17:27 | |
Kanzi, could you take my shoe off, please? | 0:17:29 | 0:17:32 | |
You might need to untie it. | 0:17:36 | 0:17:38 | |
Good job. | 0:17:42 | 0:17:43 | |
So he may be coming to you to see if you might help us | 0:17:43 | 0:17:46 | |
in filing an affidavit, | 0:17:46 | 0:17:48 | |
talking about your work, especially if we have an ape, | 0:17:48 | 0:17:51 | |
talking about the cognitive abilities that they might | 0:17:51 | 0:17:53 | |
have that would then help us persuade courts. | 0:17:53 | 0:17:56 | |
Are you going to try to make a case that apes, cetaceans and elephants | 0:17:56 | 0:17:59 | |
are particularly intelligent and different from other animals? | 0:17:59 | 0:18:02 | |
No, we're just going to make a case that there are certain criteria, | 0:18:02 | 0:18:05 | |
what I call practical autonomy, and that any animal who meets that | 0:18:05 | 0:18:10 | |
criteria should then be a legal person. | 0:18:10 | 0:18:12 | |
Yeah. | 0:18:12 | 0:18:13 | |
'Banana, juice.' | 0:18:13 | 0:18:15 | |
I'd want every single known fact about chimpanzee cognition | 0:18:28 | 0:18:32 | |
-to be in an affidavit. -Right. | 0:18:32 | 0:18:33 | |
We have to overwhelm the judge with everything that's possibly | 0:18:33 | 0:18:37 | |
-out there. -Yes. | 0:18:37 | 0:18:38 | |
And, of course, the fact that Jane Goodall's on our board - | 0:18:38 | 0:18:41 | |
when we contact someone, remind them that Jane Goodall is on our board. | 0:18:41 | 0:18:44 | |
Exactly. | 0:18:44 | 0:18:45 | |
OK, well, we are 100% sure that New York is our jurisdiction. | 0:18:45 | 0:18:49 | |
And we appear to have four chimpanzees | 0:18:49 | 0:18:51 | |
who are possible in New York. | 0:18:51 | 0:18:53 | |
-So who would we go with? -Well, let's start off with Charlie. | 0:18:53 | 0:18:56 | |
-OK. -Who is his mate? Kiko. | 0:18:56 | 0:18:58 | |
Kiko is deaf from brain damage when he was abused. | 0:18:58 | 0:19:03 | |
-Oh! -Yeah. | 0:19:03 | 0:19:04 | |
And I looked at the YouTube video of Charlie that they put out. | 0:19:04 | 0:19:10 | |
Punch, punch! | 0:19:10 | 0:19:12 | |
Actually, they have been on TV, National Geographic | 0:19:12 | 0:19:15 | |
did something on them. | 0:19:15 | 0:19:16 | |
Good. | 0:19:16 | 0:19:18 | |
He and his wife lived in the home with them. | 0:19:18 | 0:19:20 | |
Charlie, big boy. He doesn't need a diaper, huh? | 0:19:20 | 0:19:23 | |
I mean, he's 23 years old now, he's got a large enclosure and you | 0:19:23 | 0:19:28 | |
need to look at that because there is a moral issue here with Charlie. | 0:19:28 | 0:19:32 | |
He's not where he's supposed to be | 0:19:32 | 0:19:34 | |
but he is very attached to his trainer. | 0:19:34 | 0:19:38 | |
Mm. | 0:19:38 | 0:19:39 | |
I mean, he's living an artificial life, but I'm not sure that we | 0:19:39 | 0:19:44 | |
-can make a case that it would be right to take him away. -Yeah, OK. | 0:19:44 | 0:19:47 | |
-It's a no. -How about the ones in the... What's the one in Bailiwick? | 0:19:47 | 0:19:51 | |
-Merlin and Reba. -Merlin and Reba, OK. | 0:19:51 | 0:19:54 | |
Merlin and Reba, both acquired from the circus, | 0:19:54 | 0:19:58 | |
one is male, one is female. | 0:19:58 | 0:20:00 | |
Let me give you an idea - Bailiwick also has paintball. | 0:20:00 | 0:20:04 | |
-That's what we had, yeah. -Right, that stuck into my... | 0:20:04 | 0:20:07 | |
I was looking at the Better Business Bureau | 0:20:07 | 0:20:09 | |
and on a scale of A+ to F, | 0:20:09 | 0:20:12 | |
-they give it an F. -WOMAN GASPS | 0:20:12 | 0:20:14 | |
-Wow. -OK. | 0:20:14 | 0:20:15 | |
Well, I think this is going to send shock waves | 0:20:15 | 0:20:18 | |
in directions that we cannot even conceive of right now. | 0:20:18 | 0:20:21 | |
-Oh, absolutely. -Which is the whole purpose of what we're doing. -Right. | 0:20:21 | 0:20:24 | |
-We're not in there to save two chimpanzees in Bailiwick Zoo. -Right. | 0:20:24 | 0:20:27 | |
I mean, we ARE there | 0:20:27 | 0:20:29 | |
but they also represent other nonhuman animals as well. | 0:20:29 | 0:20:33 | |
-Yeah. -Mm-hm. | 0:20:33 | 0:20:35 | |
PARROT SQUAWKS | 0:20:42 | 0:20:43 | |
MERLIN HOOTS | 0:21:12 | 0:21:15 | |
They said that the other chimpanzee died about three days ago | 0:21:27 | 0:21:30 | |
and that Reba was 55 and that they only live till 60. | 0:21:30 | 0:21:37 | |
I think he's been there for seven years with that other chimpanzee | 0:21:37 | 0:21:40 | |
and now, for three days since Reba died, he's all by himself. | 0:21:40 | 0:21:45 | |
I'm sure he must be grieving and mourning | 0:21:45 | 0:21:48 | |
in the way that chimpanzees do. | 0:21:48 | 0:21:50 | |
That chimpanzee is depressed. | 0:22:00 | 0:22:03 | |
He's not interested in doing anything, he's just... | 0:22:03 | 0:22:05 | |
He's just sitting there... | 0:22:05 | 0:22:07 | |
by himself. | 0:22:07 | 0:22:09 | |
On the internet, there's all kinds of comments. | 0:22:09 | 0:22:12 | |
People are saying, | 0:22:12 | 0:22:13 | |
"How come the zoo hasn't been cited for cruelty to animals? | 0:22:13 | 0:22:15 | |
"How come the zoo...? How come it's allowed to operate?" | 0:22:15 | 0:22:19 | |
But it appears to be perfectly legal | 0:22:20 | 0:22:23 | |
and under the statutes of New York, there's nothing else that we can do. | 0:22:23 | 0:22:27 | |
Well, with any luck... It's almost May. | 0:22:29 | 0:22:33 | |
May, June, July, August, September, October... | 0:22:33 | 0:22:35 | |
Seven or eight months, we have a shot of getting him out of there. | 0:22:35 | 0:22:39 | |
Pretty impressive. | 0:22:51 | 0:22:52 | |
I've found Merlin's home. | 0:22:56 | 0:22:58 | |
I'm already...I imagine him, like, running around here. | 0:22:58 | 0:23:02 | |
When we did introductions, | 0:23:07 | 0:23:08 | |
we tried to have a balance of male and female | 0:23:08 | 0:23:12 | |
because chimps in the wild live in multi-male, multi-female groups | 0:23:12 | 0:23:15 | |
and male chimps get along very well. | 0:23:15 | 0:23:17 | |
In the wild, | 0:23:17 | 0:23:18 | |
they would have a community of which all the chimps are familiar | 0:23:18 | 0:23:21 | |
with each other but they would go off in groups of two, three, | 0:23:21 | 0:23:25 | |
four, five, small subgroups in range over many miles, so here, | 0:23:25 | 0:23:31 | |
they had the opportunity, definitely, | 0:23:31 | 0:23:33 | |
because the islands are so large that they have their favourite spots | 0:23:33 | 0:23:37 | |
and they can break apart | 0:23:37 | 0:23:38 | |
and then they usually come together at night to sleep and for meals. | 0:23:38 | 0:23:42 | |
So this is the best way that we can replicate that. | 0:23:42 | 0:23:44 | |
Obviously, it's not perfect. | 0:23:44 | 0:23:46 | |
This is always one of my favourite sights, | 0:23:46 | 0:23:48 | |
just like a crowd of chimps together, hanging out. | 0:23:48 | 0:23:52 | |
I mean, I love that because you see the sanctuary | 0:23:52 | 0:23:55 | |
and it's so easy to forget their past. | 0:23:55 | 0:23:57 | |
-REPORTER: -A 37.5lb chimpanzee was chosen last night to make this ride. | 0:24:00 | 0:24:05 | |
This particular one was selected on the basis of physical | 0:24:06 | 0:24:10 | |
and psychological characteristics. | 0:24:10 | 0:24:13 | |
-MISSION CONTROL: -Five, four, three, two, one, zero. | 0:24:21 | 0:24:26 | |
There it goes, zero. | 0:24:26 | 0:24:28 | |
There it goes, it's up in the air. | 0:24:29 | 0:24:31 | |
This success moved the United States closer, by a big step, | 0:24:35 | 0:24:40 | |
to launch a man into space and bring him back safely. | 0:24:40 | 0:24:44 | |
CHIMPANZEES SCREECH CAGES RATTLE | 0:24:44 | 0:24:48 | |
We always like to show people... This cage | 0:24:57 | 0:25:00 | |
came from the Coulston Foundation | 0:25:00 | 0:25:02 | |
and we actually paid to have it brought here because we just | 0:25:02 | 0:25:04 | |
-want people to remember how they were treated. -Mm. | 0:25:04 | 0:25:08 | |
So there was a shelf that the chimp could sit on, but this wall, | 0:25:08 | 0:25:11 | |
the back wall of the cage, | 0:25:11 | 0:25:12 | |
was hooked up to a hydraulic mechanism | 0:25:12 | 0:25:14 | |
and then could be used to squeeze forward. | 0:25:14 | 0:25:16 | |
So if they wanted to inject the chimp | 0:25:16 | 0:25:18 | |
with some sort of experimental substance or to anaesthetize them, | 0:25:18 | 0:25:22 | |
the wall would come forward | 0:25:22 | 0:25:24 | |
-and they would just squeeze them up against the bars. -Mm. | 0:25:24 | 0:25:27 | |
And they lived like this their entire lives. | 0:25:27 | 0:25:30 | |
Um, decades, and I just can't even imagine it. | 0:25:30 | 0:25:32 | |
And then in 2002, we were able to move everybody from what was | 0:25:35 | 0:25:39 | |
the Coulston Foundation to Florida. | 0:25:39 | 0:25:41 | |
-266 chimpanzees. -That's amazing. | 0:25:41 | 0:25:44 | |
It was the largest rescue of chimpanzees in history. | 0:25:44 | 0:25:47 | |
And now they're here. | 0:25:48 | 0:25:50 | |
As soon as I saw this place, I said, "Oh, my God." | 0:25:51 | 0:25:53 | |
I was texting people, | 0:25:53 | 0:25:54 | |
I said, "I hope we've found the place for Merlin." | 0:25:54 | 0:25:56 | |
-It is a beautiful place. -It's a spectacular place. | 0:25:56 | 0:25:58 | |
I can really imagine him being here. | 0:25:58 | 0:26:00 | |
-So let's assume, you know, Merlin is declared a legal person. -Person. | 0:26:00 | 0:26:04 | |
Does that mean all chimpanzees in New York State are legal persons? | 0:26:04 | 0:26:07 | |
-No, it simply just means it's Merlin. -Just Merlin, OK. | 0:26:07 | 0:26:10 | |
-Well, it's funny, the common law, it moves case by case. -Mm-hm. | 0:26:10 | 0:26:15 | |
So, ultimately, it would seem like you wouldn't have to | 0:26:15 | 0:26:18 | |
litigate these things any more. Eventually, why litigate? | 0:26:18 | 0:26:20 | |
-There's already been ten chimpanzees declared a person. -Right, exactly. | 0:26:20 | 0:26:23 | |
Right now, we haven't made it public | 0:26:23 | 0:26:25 | |
which state we've actually picked and which chimpanzee. | 0:26:25 | 0:26:28 | |
It's really the first salvo in a strategic war | 0:26:28 | 0:26:32 | |
-that's about to break out in the fall. -OK. | 0:26:32 | 0:26:34 | |
Where's Merlin? I do not see him. | 0:26:58 | 0:27:02 | |
Oh, my God, are you serious? | 0:27:06 | 0:27:08 | |
There was a sign that said there was a chimpanzee? | 0:27:08 | 0:27:11 | |
Oh, my God. | 0:27:12 | 0:27:14 | |
He's not here. | 0:27:14 | 0:27:16 | |
I can't believe this. | 0:27:18 | 0:27:20 | |
We're two months away and this is, like, the worst-case scenario. | 0:27:21 | 0:27:25 | |
Oh, my God, Steve is going to flip. | 0:27:25 | 0:27:28 | |
RINGING TONE | 0:27:33 | 0:27:35 | |
-'Hey, Natalie.' -Hi, Steve. | 0:27:35 | 0:27:37 | |
Uh... | 0:27:39 | 0:27:41 | |
Merlin died last night. | 0:27:41 | 0:27:43 | |
-'You're kidding me.' -No. | 0:27:44 | 0:27:46 | |
'No. That is the worst news...' | 0:27:47 | 0:27:50 | |
He was punching himself in the face for some time | 0:27:50 | 0:27:54 | |
and they finally decided to take him to the vet | 0:27:54 | 0:27:57 | |
and he had an infected tooth and had a root canal | 0:27:57 | 0:28:02 | |
and they said he didn't make it on the way home. | 0:28:02 | 0:28:05 | |
And they had an autopsy and he had an engorged liver | 0:28:05 | 0:28:08 | |
and it just couldn't handle the anaesthesia. | 0:28:08 | 0:28:11 | |
'OK.' | 0:28:11 | 0:28:13 | |
I'm really sorry to break this news to you. | 0:28:13 | 0:28:15 | |
'Oh, well, yeah, I'm glad you're there | 0:28:15 | 0:28:17 | |
'and you know and now we have to figure out our next step.' | 0:28:17 | 0:28:22 | |
A week ago today, | 0:28:26 | 0:28:27 | |
Natalie went to Bailiwick | 0:28:27 | 0:28:29 | |
and learned that our petitioner Merlin was dead | 0:28:29 | 0:28:33 | |
and so we're going back to the two that we had originally been | 0:28:33 | 0:28:37 | |
-talking about, which are Kiko and Charlie at Niagara Falls. -Yes. | 0:28:37 | 0:28:41 | |
What are they called now? | 0:28:41 | 0:28:43 | |
The Primate Sanctuary, they're called The Primate Sanctuary. | 0:28:43 | 0:28:46 | |
They were, at one time, called Monkey Business. | 0:28:46 | 0:28:48 | |
Their website advertises 26 monkeys and 18 exotic birds. | 0:28:48 | 0:28:52 | |
And they say, "Contact us for parties"? | 0:28:52 | 0:28:54 | |
-"Book a presentation." -"Book a presentation." | 0:28:54 | 0:28:57 | |
When I first started looking into these kind of people, | 0:28:57 | 0:28:59 | |
I remember going to their website specifically and just seeing all the | 0:28:59 | 0:29:02 | |
chimps dressed up in American flags and hats and waving their flags. | 0:29:02 | 0:29:05 | |
"It seems real, he's my baby." | 0:29:05 | 0:29:08 | |
He's like, "Coochie-coo..." you know that cutesy talk... | 0:29:08 | 0:29:10 | |
"It is as intense as a father loves a child. | 0:29:10 | 0:29:14 | |
"They aren't animals, they are my boys. | 0:29:14 | 0:29:17 | |
"I'm 'Daddy' and he understands Mommy - my wife Kristi." | 0:29:17 | 0:29:20 | |
MAN SCOFFS | 0:29:20 | 0:29:22 | |
It's kind of creepy. THEY CHUCKLE | 0:29:22 | 0:29:24 | |
I think it's REALLY creepy. | 0:29:24 | 0:29:26 | |
-This guy, we're not saying he's an evil person. -Yeah. | 0:29:26 | 0:29:28 | |
He's just essentially enslaved these animals and they... | 0:29:28 | 0:29:31 | |
I'm not so sure he's not an evil person. | 0:29:31 | 0:29:33 | |
It's like any kind of kidnapper. | 0:29:33 | 0:29:34 | |
-It's kind of delusional. -Exactly, Charles, it's delusional. | 0:29:34 | 0:29:38 | |
There it is right there. | 0:29:50 | 0:29:52 | |
Let's see if we can see through here. | 0:29:53 | 0:29:56 | |
KNOCKS ON DOOR | 0:29:57 | 0:29:58 | |
Is this where Charlie the Karate Chimpanzee is? | 0:29:58 | 0:30:01 | |
-Yeah. -Can I get...? Can I buy a video? -We don't sell videos. | 0:30:01 | 0:30:05 | |
Oh, I saw it on the internet. | 0:30:05 | 0:30:06 | |
No, actually, our facility isn't open to the public. | 0:30:06 | 0:30:09 | |
We're in the process of building a new sanctuary | 0:30:09 | 0:30:13 | |
out in Wilson, New York. | 0:30:13 | 0:30:14 | |
We just got approved on June 26th. | 0:30:14 | 0:30:16 | |
-OK. You taught the karate? -I did, yeah... | 0:30:16 | 0:30:19 | |
-Well, my brother owns three martial arts studio in New York. -Oh, I see. | 0:30:19 | 0:30:23 | |
So it was something that he picked up cos when he was a baby, | 0:30:23 | 0:30:26 | |
I used to take him there cos I'm working out | 0:30:26 | 0:30:28 | |
and he just picked him up and looked at him | 0:30:28 | 0:30:30 | |
and said, "Let's try it." | 0:30:30 | 0:30:32 | |
It just mushroomed into that, and the best part about it, | 0:30:32 | 0:30:35 | |
he loved doing it. | 0:30:35 | 0:30:36 | |
And when you watch his martial arts on, like, YouTube or something, | 0:30:36 | 0:30:40 | |
you can tell he's having fun because that was what it was all about. | 0:30:40 | 0:30:44 | |
-How old's Charlie now? -He's 27. | 0:30:44 | 0:30:47 | |
And we have our other chimp, Kiko, who's a deaf chimp that we rescued. | 0:30:47 | 0:30:50 | |
-Yeah. -Where was Kiko rescued from? | 0:30:50 | 0:30:52 | |
It was a TV series called Tarzan Comes To New York | 0:30:52 | 0:30:55 | |
and Kiko was the chimp in it. | 0:30:55 | 0:30:57 | |
-Well, you left the keys inside. -So what? Chimps can't ride. | 0:30:57 | 0:31:01 | |
CAR ENGINE REVS | 0:31:01 | 0:31:03 | |
POLICE SIREN BLARES | 0:31:05 | 0:31:08 | |
Drive. Drive. | 0:31:09 | 0:31:11 | |
'And supposedly Kiko bit someone' | 0:31:12 | 0:31:15 | |
and ended up getting the tar beat out of him. | 0:31:15 | 0:31:17 | |
He was hit on the head with a blunt instrument | 0:31:17 | 0:31:20 | |
and he ended up going deaf in both ears. | 0:31:20 | 0:31:22 | |
He's got about maybe 10% of hearing. | 0:31:22 | 0:31:24 | |
It must be so much work. | 0:31:24 | 0:31:25 | |
It's just nonstop and, I mean, don't get me wrong, I love it just being | 0:31:25 | 0:31:30 | |
with them so much and they just turn out to be really great chimpanzees. | 0:31:30 | 0:31:36 | |
-Really? -Yeah. | 0:31:36 | 0:31:37 | |
OK, well, I won't take up any more of your... Thanks so much. | 0:31:38 | 0:31:42 | |
-All right, nice talking to you. -Bye. | 0:31:42 | 0:31:44 | |
He wants to get 'em to a slightly less depressing | 0:31:45 | 0:31:49 | |
-place in his sanctuary. -That sanctuary's not going to happen. | 0:31:49 | 0:31:52 | |
But that's the whole thing. | 0:31:52 | 0:31:53 | |
And I thought maybe he was independently wealthy or something | 0:31:53 | 0:31:57 | |
but he's trying to raise money for it... | 0:31:57 | 0:32:00 | |
A sanctuary, he's now up to 31 primates, | 0:32:01 | 0:32:04 | |
so 29 monkeys of various kinds and two chimpanzees. | 0:32:04 | 0:32:07 | |
But if his heart is in the right place... | 0:32:07 | 0:32:09 | |
It is in the right place, I think. | 0:32:09 | 0:32:11 | |
..which it seems to be at this juncture, | 0:32:11 | 0:32:13 | |
then he probably wouldn't mind having the chimps | 0:32:13 | 0:32:15 | |
being taken off his hands, except for one problem - | 0:32:15 | 0:32:18 | |
he has emotionally bonded with them. | 0:32:18 | 0:32:20 | |
Well, I know he has. | 0:32:20 | 0:32:21 | |
So, for him and the way he thinks, | 0:32:21 | 0:32:23 | |
-that's going to be like taking away his children. -I agree. | 0:32:23 | 0:32:27 | |
-REPORTER: -Tonight, the entertainment world | 0:32:29 | 0:32:31 | |
is mourning a popular primate - | 0:32:31 | 0:32:33 | |
Charlie the Karate Chimp passed away | 0:32:33 | 0:32:35 | |
at a sanctuary in Niagara County yesterday. | 0:32:35 | 0:32:37 | |
During his 26 years... | 0:32:37 | 0:32:38 | |
Well, I got an e-mail that Charlie, our chimpanzee in Niagara Falls, | 0:32:38 | 0:32:42 | |
one of the two of Charlie and Kiko, died of cardiomyopathy. | 0:32:42 | 0:32:46 | |
And in fact it was the third blow that we've had in the last | 0:32:46 | 0:32:48 | |
seven months in which our chimpanzee plaintiffs have died - | 0:32:48 | 0:32:52 | |
-Reba, Merlin and now Charlie. -Right. | 0:32:52 | 0:32:55 | |
I mean, captivity, it's just killing these guys | 0:32:55 | 0:32:58 | |
-so I don't want to take any more chances. -Right. | 0:32:58 | 0:33:00 | |
We need to locate every surviving chimpanzee in New York State | 0:33:00 | 0:33:04 | |
and file a suit on their behalf. | 0:33:04 | 0:33:06 | |
Yes, that's number one. | 0:33:06 | 0:33:08 | |
That says "Mayfield - 5 miles." | 0:33:21 | 0:33:23 | |
We're looking for something called Santa's Hitching Post | 0:33:25 | 0:33:28 | |
-and there was nothing like that. -'No, I said it was a trailer park.' | 0:33:28 | 0:33:31 | |
Where did we get the name Santa's Hitching Post? I have no idea. | 0:33:31 | 0:33:34 | |
INCOHERENT ON PHONE | 0:33:34 | 0:33:36 | |
Oh, this is a trailer place. And they rent out reindeer? | 0:33:36 | 0:33:41 | |
There it is. Is it the Circle G or something? | 0:33:44 | 0:33:46 | |
CAR HORN BLARES | 0:33:54 | 0:33:57 | |
This might sound like a stupid question - | 0:33:57 | 0:33:59 | |
we saw somebody on The Today Show talking about reindeer... | 0:33:59 | 0:34:03 | |
-Yes, we do. -You do? Can I see them? -Sure. | 0:34:03 | 0:34:06 | |
Actually, this is Buddy coming at you, | 0:34:08 | 0:34:11 | |
this is one that was on The Today Show. | 0:34:11 | 0:34:13 | |
-Do both males and females have antlers? -Yes, they do. | 0:34:13 | 0:34:15 | |
-And the one with no horns, that's the bull. -Oh, cos he'll attack? | 0:34:15 | 0:34:19 | |
-Yeah, he actually comes after the gate. -Oh, I see. | 0:34:19 | 0:34:22 | |
-Someone told me you had a monkey. -There's a chimp in there. | 0:34:22 | 0:34:24 | |
Oh, he's in...? | 0:34:24 | 0:34:26 | |
He was actually in movies back in the day, | 0:34:26 | 0:34:29 | |
Project X and all them other... | 0:34:29 | 0:34:31 | |
-Chimpanzees in the space programme? -Yeah. | 0:34:31 | 0:34:33 | |
OK, stop flying. | 0:34:36 | 0:34:39 | |
CHIMPANZEE CHATTERS | 0:34:39 | 0:34:40 | |
Oh, he must be 30 or 40 years old. | 0:34:44 | 0:34:47 | |
We had one, she lived to be, like, 60-something years old at one point. | 0:34:47 | 0:34:51 | |
-Really? -Yeah. | 0:34:51 | 0:34:53 | |
-Doesn't he get lonely? -Yeah, he is. | 0:34:53 | 0:34:55 | |
He's supposed to be going to Florida to go on to another farm | 0:34:55 | 0:34:57 | |
because the last one that was in there was his little friend there. | 0:34:57 | 0:35:01 | |
She died actually not too long ago, so... | 0:35:01 | 0:35:04 | |
Just trying to find him a home where he can go | 0:35:04 | 0:35:07 | |
and be with other animals and, you know, more chimps | 0:35:07 | 0:35:09 | |
and have more room to run around. | 0:35:09 | 0:35:10 | |
"Sabo's." | 0:35:10 | 0:35:12 | |
INCOHERENT SPEECH | 0:35:14 | 0:35:17 | |
Sabo's Chimpanzees. | 0:35:17 | 0:35:19 | |
You ought to see him through this window. | 0:35:24 | 0:35:26 | |
-He's eating, he's eating a banana. -You see him eating now? -Oh, yeah. | 0:35:30 | 0:35:35 | |
Hi, Tommy. | 0:35:45 | 0:35:46 | |
He's old. I'm not sure how old he is but he's old. | 0:35:46 | 0:35:50 | |
-This must be where he lives. -Yeah, this is where he lives. | 0:35:50 | 0:35:53 | |
He's got a TV to watch and then he's got there, the jungle. | 0:35:53 | 0:35:56 | |
They're strong. | 0:35:56 | 0:35:59 | |
Yeah, he won't do much, he just sits there. | 0:35:59 | 0:36:01 | |
TV PLAYS IN BACKGROUND | 0:36:02 | 0:36:06 | |
Hey, Natalie. Well, we confirmed Tommy is one sad-looking chimpanzee. | 0:36:13 | 0:36:17 | |
Thanks for telling me about The Today Show | 0:36:17 | 0:36:20 | |
because I said I'd seen him on The Today Show and he came | 0:36:20 | 0:36:23 | |
and showed me his reindeer and then after a while, | 0:36:23 | 0:36:26 | |
we asked whether he had any other animals around. | 0:36:26 | 0:36:29 | |
He wasn't the owner, he was a handyman and they said they were | 0:36:29 | 0:36:33 | |
trying to get him to a place in Florida, that's what they said. | 0:36:33 | 0:36:37 | |
-We didn't ask anything. -'I'm really sorry you had to see that.' | 0:36:37 | 0:36:41 | |
It was him, there were perhaps 10 to 12 empty cages | 0:36:41 | 0:36:45 | |
and then he was in one of them. | 0:36:45 | 0:36:47 | |
And about perhaps 15 feet away from him | 0:36:47 | 0:36:50 | |
was a small TV that was showing PBS, cartoons. | 0:36:50 | 0:36:54 | |
'Oh, God, that is so...' | 0:36:54 | 0:36:55 | |
Oh, please. I think we're all ready to cry, it was really... | 0:36:55 | 0:36:59 | |
It was a very sad thing. | 0:36:59 | 0:37:01 | |
RINGING TONE | 0:37:08 | 0:37:10 | |
-'Hi, Liddy.' -Hey, Steve. | 0:37:10 | 0:37:13 | |
I am going to the State University in Stony Brook | 0:37:13 | 0:37:16 | |
where two chimpanzees, Hercules and Leo, | 0:37:16 | 0:37:19 | |
-are being held for research and locomotion experimentation. -'Right.' | 0:37:19 | 0:37:26 | |
If you go on Stony Brook's website, they talk about the primates | 0:37:26 | 0:37:30 | |
so that's why the chimpanzees must be there. | 0:37:30 | 0:37:34 | |
-MAN ON VIDEO: -This is Hercules. | 0:37:34 | 0:37:36 | |
Hercules is helping scientists understand | 0:37:36 | 0:37:38 | |
the origins of human walking. | 0:37:38 | 0:37:40 | |
And this is Hercules' colleague, Leo. | 0:37:41 | 0:37:45 | |
By tracing the markers, the researchers were able to understand | 0:37:45 | 0:37:48 | |
that chimps swing their hips much more than humans when they walk. | 0:37:48 | 0:37:52 | |
OK, so I couldn't get any read from anyone | 0:38:05 | 0:38:09 | |
if they are aware of the presence of Hercules and Leo. | 0:38:09 | 0:38:13 | |
What I DO know is that people don't want to talk about it, they just... | 0:38:13 | 0:38:18 | |
They don't. | 0:38:18 | 0:38:19 | |
-'Well, we can still file and if they're not there...' -Absolutely. | 0:38:19 | 0:38:23 | |
And because Stony Brook is the State University, | 0:38:23 | 0:38:27 | |
we are going to go head-to-head with the Attorney General. | 0:38:27 | 0:38:31 | |
'OK, let's get moving.' | 0:38:31 | 0:38:32 | |
-Hello, David, thank you for coming. -Hey, David, how are you? | 0:38:38 | 0:38:43 | |
-Nice to see you, long time. -Ages, huh? | 0:38:43 | 0:38:45 | |
-Do you want to do it like this? -Yes, perfect. | 0:38:45 | 0:38:48 | |
I want to welcome everybody today | 0:38:48 | 0:38:50 | |
to the Nonhuman Rights Project moot court, | 0:38:50 | 0:38:53 | |
in which we will be helping Steve in the Nonhuman Rights Project | 0:38:53 | 0:38:57 | |
practise for our first lawsuits in Tommy's case. | 0:38:57 | 0:39:00 | |
Mr Wise, you can understand, | 0:39:01 | 0:39:03 | |
I'm sure, why we're somewhat concerned | 0:39:03 | 0:39:05 | |
about being the first court in the entire world | 0:39:05 | 0:39:07 | |
to come to the conclusions that you're arguing for | 0:39:07 | 0:39:10 | |
and it seems to me what you're saying is | 0:39:10 | 0:39:12 | |
if I see chimpanzees in environments | 0:39:12 | 0:39:14 | |
where they're not being appropriately treated, | 0:39:14 | 0:39:16 | |
where I think they're suffering a basic welfare problem, | 0:39:16 | 0:39:19 | |
I'm going to go in to get them out to put them | 0:39:19 | 0:39:22 | |
in environments where I think they are treated appropriately. | 0:39:22 | 0:39:24 | |
But if I see places where the animals are treated well, | 0:39:24 | 0:39:28 | |
then I'm not going to bother with them because what am I going to do? | 0:39:28 | 0:39:31 | |
Move them from one sanctuary to another? | 0:39:31 | 0:39:32 | |
So I'm only, ultimately, | 0:39:32 | 0:39:34 | |
focused on chimpanzees that are being treated badly. | 0:39:34 | 0:39:37 | |
Are being treated in a way that does not respect their autonomy | 0:39:37 | 0:39:39 | |
-and self-determination. -Right. | 0:39:39 | 0:39:41 | |
So why is this just not a welfare concern? | 0:39:41 | 0:39:43 | |
I mean, OK, so the Animal Welfare Act, | 0:39:43 | 0:39:45 | |
you don't think is good enough? | 0:39:45 | 0:39:46 | |
The anti-cruelty statutes are not good enough? | 0:39:46 | 0:39:49 | |
So why don't we just make the laws good enough? | 0:39:49 | 0:39:50 | |
-Have you tried to make the laws good enough? -We have not tried to do that. | 0:39:50 | 0:39:53 | |
Have you gone to the USDA and asked them to enforce the Animal Welfare Act? | 0:39:53 | 0:39:57 | |
We don't think that they're violating the Animal Welfare Act | 0:39:57 | 0:40:00 | |
or they're violating the state's anti-cruelty statute. | 0:40:00 | 0:40:02 | |
You know he's in compliance with his licence in every respect? | 0:40:02 | 0:40:05 | |
We believe he is, that's right. | 0:40:05 | 0:40:06 | |
And that...that's the problem, | 0:40:06 | 0:40:09 | |
is that...is that there is no other place | 0:40:09 | 0:40:12 | |
where we can go for his benefit. | 0:40:12 | 0:40:15 | |
-So... -Really? You can't go to the legislature? | 0:40:15 | 0:40:17 | |
Well, that's like saying if I have a problem, I don't follow brief, | 0:40:17 | 0:40:21 | |
what I do is I go to legislature. I have... | 0:40:21 | 0:40:24 | |
-Tommy has the right, we argue now... -No, it's not quite the same as that. | 0:40:24 | 0:40:27 | |
-..has the right to habeas corpus. -It's actually like saying | 0:40:27 | 0:40:30 | |
we have a system of laws that regulate the welfare of animals and you feel that they're insufficient. | 0:40:30 | 0:40:34 | |
What you're talking about is the welfare of animals here. | 0:40:34 | 0:40:37 | |
So rather than go to the systems that make those laws and try and have them properly enforced, | 0:40:37 | 0:40:41 | |
you want to come to our court and ask for a right that's never been granted in the history of humankind. | 0:40:41 | 0:40:46 | |
May I make a suggestion? | 0:40:46 | 0:40:48 | |
I feel like you've fallen for their trap. | 0:40:48 | 0:40:50 | |
You've dug yourself a hole and you can't get out of it. | 0:40:50 | 0:40:52 | |
-I don't see the problem. -You don't feel stuck? -No. Stuck in what way? | 0:40:52 | 0:40:56 | |
-Now we're arguing over welfare. -The welfare of animals. -That's because YOU keep using the word "welfare". | 0:40:56 | 0:41:01 | |
And so I figured, "OK, I've lost this judge, I'm not going to get him." | 0:41:01 | 0:41:04 | |
I think you're wrong. | 0:41:04 | 0:41:06 | |
-What you've lost is... -Can I give you constructive feedback? | 0:41:06 | 0:41:09 | |
-Let me tell you what you said back then. -LAUGHTER | 0:41:09 | 0:41:13 | |
Bailiff, would you remove this woman? | 0:41:13 | 0:41:14 | |
-LAUGHTER -Remove her from the court. -No! | 0:41:14 | 0:41:17 | |
BIRDSONG | 0:41:18 | 0:41:20 | |
CHATTER | 0:41:22 | 0:41:23 | |
I tell Gail when she plays you, | 0:41:24 | 0:41:26 | |
"If you just make a run, you should be able to take her." | 0:41:26 | 0:41:29 | |
Whose side are you on? | 0:41:29 | 0:41:31 | |
-I have to be on my wife's side. -Well, what about your mother? | 0:41:31 | 0:41:34 | |
I'm usually on my mother's side, | 0:41:34 | 0:41:36 | |
unless she's in conflict with my wife. | 0:41:36 | 0:41:37 | |
You haven't been on my side in several years. | 0:41:37 | 0:41:40 | |
Oh, now it's getting ugly. | 0:41:40 | 0:41:42 | |
Now... LAUGHTER | 0:41:42 | 0:41:43 | |
-So you're really breaking ground here on different levels. -I hope so. | 0:41:43 | 0:41:48 | |
Cos no-one's ever done it before. | 0:41:48 | 0:41:50 | |
So we're trying to get all the affidavits in from all over the world. | 0:41:50 | 0:41:53 | |
And it happened, we got them. We got 'em. | 0:41:53 | 0:41:56 | |
'So what is the scientific argument that you will be making?' | 0:41:59 | 0:42:02 | |
Well, the scientific argument | 0:42:02 | 0:42:03 | |
is based on the affidavits of ten experts | 0:42:03 | 0:42:07 | |
we have from all over the world, | 0:42:07 | 0:42:09 | |
Japan, Sweden, Germany, Scotland, England and five more in the US, | 0:42:09 | 0:42:15 | |
based on 45 years of scientific observation | 0:42:15 | 0:42:18 | |
of chimpanzee language and communication, culture. | 0:42:18 | 0:42:22 | |
And it boils down to the fact | 0:42:22 | 0:42:24 | |
that all three cases, you know, Tommy and Hercules and Leo and Kiko, | 0:42:24 | 0:42:28 | |
they are autonomous creatures, | 0:42:28 | 0:42:30 | |
they should be able to live autonomous lives. | 0:42:30 | 0:42:32 | |
'If you are successful, if you win, what changes? What happens?' | 0:42:32 | 0:42:37 | |
I kind of view it as a legal transubstantiation, | 0:42:37 | 0:42:41 | |
where the nonhuman animal would come out of that court room | 0:42:41 | 0:42:44 | |
looking the exact same, but her legal status would be forever changed. | 0:42:44 | 0:42:49 | |
Dean, it turned out we had 400 citations. We were, like, stunned. | 0:42:49 | 0:42:53 | |
So, you know, if you can get to the judge and say, | 0:43:00 | 0:43:02 | |
"Judge, we're providing you with a pile of these affidavits, | 0:43:02 | 0:43:05 | |
"because all of these primatologists, | 0:43:05 | 0:43:07 | |
"all of these scientists have come to the same conclusion." | 0:43:07 | 0:43:09 | |
It's all science, science, science, science. | 0:43:09 | 0:43:12 | |
-Is this more advice? -Yeah. -OK. -Sorry. | 0:43:12 | 0:43:15 | |
-LAUGHTER -I see the wheels spinning in his head! | 0:43:15 | 0:43:19 | |
No, that's the Jewish mother. | 0:43:19 | 0:43:21 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:43:21 | 0:43:23 | |
CHATTER | 0:43:44 | 0:43:46 | |
Be kind. | 0:43:49 | 0:43:51 | |
-He was a terrific judge for us to go in front of. -Right. | 0:44:05 | 0:44:08 | |
-We had not considered that he would on the spot order us in. -Not in a million years. | 0:44:08 | 0:44:12 | |
To have been able to have a full oral argument on the record... | 0:44:12 | 0:44:17 | |
-Without another side. -..that we had, it's just mind-blowing. | 0:44:17 | 0:44:20 | |
He felt that since it had never been done before, he could not do it. | 0:44:20 | 0:44:25 | |
But he did everything he could to get us the best possible record, | 0:44:26 | 0:44:29 | |
to get us up to the appellant courts to be able to present our arguments | 0:44:29 | 0:44:32 | |
-to those people he felt had the power to do it. -Yes. | 0:44:32 | 0:44:35 | |
We were thinking of all the different ways that we might end up losing, | 0:44:35 | 0:44:39 | |
and this turns out to be probably the best way to go. | 0:44:39 | 0:44:42 | |
-That's totally unexpected. -Yeah. | 0:44:42 | 0:44:44 | |
-Gosh! I just can't believe he kept helping us. -I know. | 0:44:47 | 0:44:51 | |
It's a legal victory for us, so we want to make sure | 0:44:51 | 0:44:53 | |
-that nobody misinterprets what occurred. -Exactly. -Right. | 0:44:53 | 0:44:56 | |
-So we need to put out a comprehensive press release today. -Today. | 0:44:56 | 0:45:00 | |
-Do you want to hear what Patrick Lavery said to the New York Times? -Yes. -Sure. | 0:45:00 | 0:45:04 | |
"Patrick C Lavery, the owner of Circle L Trailer Sales in Gloversville, where Tommy lives, | 0:45:04 | 0:45:09 | |
"said that he had heard about the petition from reporters' telephone calls. | 0:45:09 | 0:45:12 | |
"If they were to see where the chimp lived for the first 30 years of his life, | 0:45:12 | 0:45:16 | |
"they would jump up and down for joy at where she is now. | 0:45:16 | 0:45:18 | |
"Mr Lavery said he had not seen or been officially notified of the petition." | 0:45:18 | 0:45:23 | |
He has now. | 0:45:23 | 0:45:25 | |
-This is the New York Times? -It is. | 0:45:25 | 0:45:28 | |
Oh, I love that. SHE LAUGHS | 0:45:28 | 0:45:30 | |
-WOMAN: -'Kind of a bizarre lawsuit with big implications.' | 0:45:32 | 0:45:34 | |
At the centre of it is a chimpanzee, | 0:45:34 | 0:45:37 | |
and the key question is whether a chimp is a person. | 0:45:37 | 0:45:41 | |
-MAN: -'Steven Wise of the Nonhuman Rights Project | 0:45:41 | 0:45:43 | |
'is seeking a writ of habeas corpus | 0:45:43 | 0:45:45 | |
'on behalf of Tommy, a 26-year-old chimp, | 0:45:45 | 0:45:48 | |
'arguing that animals with human qualities, such as chimps, | 0:45:48 | 0:45:50 | |
'deserve basic rights including freedom from imprisonment.' | 0:45:50 | 0:45:54 | |
-MAN: -'The group is trying to invoke a right known as habeas corpus, | 0:45:54 | 0:45:58 | |
'a legal procedure which entitles inmates | 0:45:58 | 0:46:00 | |
'to have a judge review their detention.' | 0:46:00 | 0:46:02 | |
'Habeas corpus means "free the body" | 0:46:02 | 0:46:05 | |
'and it's been used throughout the years to free people | 0:46:05 | 0:46:08 | |
'from what's been considered an unjust incarceration.' | 0:46:08 | 0:46:10 | |
-WOMAN: -'Under the law, a writ of habeas corpus | 0:46:10 | 0:46:13 | |
'can only be granted to legal persons, | 0:46:13 | 0:46:16 | |
'so the judge would need to find that chimpanzees | 0:46:16 | 0:46:18 | |
'have at least some limited rights traditionally reserved for humans.' | 0:46:18 | 0:46:23 | |
-MAN: -'The landmark lawsuit was brought on behalf of Tommy, | 0:46:23 | 0:46:26 | |
'who lives caged on his owner's property in Gloversville.' | 0:46:26 | 0:46:30 | |
He's got seven rooms. He's got a room that he likes to sleep in, | 0:46:30 | 0:46:33 | |
another room where he likes to watch his TV | 0:46:33 | 0:46:35 | |
and there's other rooms he plays in. | 0:46:35 | 0:46:36 | |
It kind of hurts when you hear allegations | 0:46:36 | 0:46:38 | |
of people thinking that we're animal abusers here | 0:46:38 | 0:46:41 | |
and we're not treating him properly. | 0:46:41 | 0:46:42 | |
'Lavery insists Tommy loves the solitude | 0:46:42 | 0:46:44 | |
'and that his cage is licenced and inspected, | 0:46:44 | 0:46:47 | |
'saying he even has colour TV and receives enrichment daily | 0:46:47 | 0:46:51 | |
'including walls painted like a jungle.' | 0:46:51 | 0:46:53 | |
-MAN: -'The owner claims that Tommy is just very happy. | 0:46:53 | 0:46:57 | |
'What do you have to say to that?' | 0:46:57 | 0:47:00 | |
I think that if Tommy is so happy, | 0:47:00 | 0:47:03 | |
I think the owner should move in. | 0:47:03 | 0:47:05 | |
-Oh, we're in this one today too? -I think so. | 0:47:09 | 0:47:12 | |
-Oh, my God! It's you! -There it is. | 0:47:16 | 0:47:17 | |
OK, we'll take three Daily News, one New York Times. | 0:47:17 | 0:47:21 | |
-OK. 5. -Thank you. | 0:47:21 | 0:47:23 | |
So, you're trying to argue that chimps should be... | 0:47:25 | 0:47:28 | |
-Legal persons. -A legal person? -Yeah, that's right. | 0:47:28 | 0:47:31 | |
It's a tough sell, but not a bad cause. | 0:47:31 | 0:47:35 | |
What do you guys... What are you guys here to talk about? | 0:47:35 | 0:47:37 | |
Dirty detective from Brooklyn framed a lot of people. | 0:47:37 | 0:47:41 | |
-Oh, I think I saw, like, a headline. -Yeah, yeah. | 0:47:41 | 0:47:43 | |
But this is far more interesting than what I'm talking about. | 0:47:43 | 0:47:46 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:47:46 | 0:47:48 | |
So, I suppose just reasoning this forward | 0:47:48 | 0:47:51 | |
in looking at the corporate personhood rationale... | 0:47:51 | 0:47:54 | |
It's not just corporations, it's ships, it's partnerships, | 0:47:54 | 0:47:57 | |
it's counties, it's states, there are lots of nonhuman persons. | 0:47:57 | 0:48:01 | |
There was a treaty last year | 0:48:01 | 0:48:02 | |
between the Maoris and the New Zealand government | 0:48:02 | 0:48:04 | |
where they agreed that a river was a person, | 0:48:04 | 0:48:06 | |
that in Hindu, an idol is a person. | 0:48:06 | 0:48:08 | |
I guess I would look to the Supreme Court's basis | 0:48:08 | 0:48:12 | |
for declaring corporate personhood, | 0:48:12 | 0:48:15 | |
since that strikes me as much more precedential for American purposes | 0:48:15 | 0:48:19 | |
than Hindu idols or New Zealand rivers, frankly. | 0:48:19 | 0:48:22 | |
-And you think this is a better fight, the legal fight? -Yeah. | 0:48:22 | 0:48:27 | |
Because you expect to win it, | 0:48:27 | 0:48:29 | |
or because it creates a really good set of discussions, | 0:48:29 | 0:48:32 | |
-the way Peter Singer does about, you know... -Both. | 0:48:32 | 0:48:35 | |
Both it creates and we expect to win it. | 0:48:35 | 0:48:37 | |
-We don't know that we're going to win this first round, but we will win it. -Right. | 0:48:37 | 0:48:41 | |
I like it. I like it. | 0:48:41 | 0:48:43 | |
-MAN: -Four, three... | 0:48:43 | 0:48:45 | |
Here we go. | 0:48:45 | 0:48:47 | |
I've got to tell you, this is a very interesting case, Steven, | 0:48:47 | 0:48:50 | |
because any time you kind of equate an animal with personhood, | 0:48:50 | 0:48:53 | |
it raises all sorts of questions. | 0:48:53 | 0:48:55 | |
This country has a very sordid history | 0:48:55 | 0:48:57 | |
when it comes to animals and humans and equating one with the other. | 0:48:57 | 0:49:00 | |
Of course, back in the early days of this country, | 0:49:00 | 0:49:02 | |
you had the three-fifths compromise, | 0:49:02 | 0:49:04 | |
meaning that African-Americans were three-fifths of a man. | 0:49:04 | 0:49:07 | |
And then, of course, those equating chimpanzees and apes | 0:49:07 | 0:49:10 | |
and stuff like that hideously so with black people - | 0:49:10 | 0:49:13 | |
I'd say, "Wait a minute, chimps are chimps, they are not human." | 0:49:13 | 0:49:16 | |
Obviously, we're not saying... | 0:49:16 | 0:49:18 | |
we're not saying that a chimpanzee is a human | 0:49:18 | 0:49:20 | |
and we're not equating chimpanzees with slaves. | 0:49:20 | 0:49:24 | |
What happens is that the legal pathway we're using, | 0:49:24 | 0:49:28 | |
a writ of habeas corpus, | 0:49:28 | 0:49:30 | |
is one that was traditionally used in England and in the United States | 0:49:30 | 0:49:35 | |
for slaves to try to challenge their status as a thing | 0:49:35 | 0:49:38 | |
-and move them into the status of a person. -Mm-hm. | 0:49:38 | 0:49:42 | |
So there's a lot of law out there and kind of a path in front of us | 0:49:42 | 0:49:45 | |
for how we might be able to do that for someone like Tommy. | 0:49:45 | 0:49:47 | |
So we're saying when we say Tommy's a person, | 0:49:47 | 0:49:50 | |
-we simply mean that Tommy has the capacity to have a legal right. -OK. | 0:49:50 | 0:49:53 | |
Well, I think you've clarified that. | 0:49:53 | 0:49:55 | |
We certainly wish Tommy and other animals like him well. | 0:49:55 | 0:49:58 | |
Steven Wise, thank you so much for joining us. | 0:49:58 | 0:50:00 | |
Thank you very much for having me. | 0:50:00 | 0:50:01 | |
Justice is heavy. | 0:50:08 | 0:50:09 | |
This week in the state of New York, we filed the first two cases | 0:50:11 | 0:50:15 | |
on behalf of chimpanzees | 0:50:15 | 0:50:16 | |
who were living by themselves and privately owned. | 0:50:16 | 0:50:19 | |
And today we're filing a lawsuit against Stony Brook, | 0:50:19 | 0:50:22 | |
which is a university here on Long Island, | 0:50:22 | 0:50:24 | |
which is imprisoning two chimpanzees | 0:50:24 | 0:50:28 | |
that they're using for biomedical research on locomotion. | 0:50:28 | 0:50:31 | |
If you had a message for Stony Brook now, what would that be? | 0:50:31 | 0:50:33 | |
Free the chimpanzees. LAUGHTER | 0:50:33 | 0:50:35 | |
Free the Stony Brook Two. | 0:50:35 | 0:50:37 | |
SHE CLEARS HER THROAT | 0:50:40 | 0:50:43 | |
The outcome was that he denied signing the petition. | 0:50:43 | 0:50:48 | |
He was not going to take the step of granting personhood to a chimpanzee. | 0:50:48 | 0:50:54 | |
It was the personhood issue. | 0:50:54 | 0:50:57 | |
-I was really expecting to see the judge. -Well, you know, me too. | 0:50:59 | 0:51:02 | |
-I was, like, raring to go. -I know. | 0:51:02 | 0:51:04 | |
I haven't heard a peep from the folks in Louisiana. | 0:51:11 | 0:51:14 | |
-I always forget their names. -New Iberia? -New Iberia, yeah. -Uh-huh. | 0:51:14 | 0:51:17 | |
-That's funny. -Did you expect to hear something? | 0:51:17 | 0:51:19 | |
-Well, they claim that they own the chimpanzees at Stony Brook. -Yes. | 0:51:19 | 0:51:23 | |
New Iberia confirmed they own them. | 0:51:23 | 0:51:25 | |
They probably want to keep this so quiet. | 0:51:25 | 0:51:27 | |
-I'm not at all surprised that they haven't surfaced. -Yeah. | 0:51:27 | 0:51:31 | |
'Well, Jane, the Humane Society has spent nine months undercover | 0:51:38 | 0:51:42 | |
'at the New Iberia Research Center in Louisiana, | 0:51:42 | 0:51:44 | |
'one of the largest primate research labs in the country, | 0:51:44 | 0:51:47 | |
'and she witnessed physical abuse of primates, monkeys being hit, | 0:51:47 | 0:51:52 | |
'but what was perhaps the worst | 0:51:52 | 0:51:53 | |
'was seeing animals driven to self-mutilation. | 0:51:53 | 0:51:56 | |
'The psychological abuse that these animals go through, | 0:51:56 | 0:51:59 | |
'being in isolation in small cages, many of them | 0:51:59 | 0:52:02 | |
'are tearing at their skin and their flesh with their hands. | 0:52:02 | 0:52:05 | |
'They had gaping wounds in their arms and legs | 0:52:05 | 0:52:08 | |
'and it was just terrible to see them literally driven mad.' | 0:52:08 | 0:52:11 | |
WILD SCREECHING | 0:52:11 | 0:52:13 | |
-MAN: -'Mr Wise, your group | 0:52:25 | 0:52:27 | |
'has now lost its first three lower court rulings - | 0:52:27 | 0:52:29 | |
'what are your chances going forward? | 0:52:29 | 0:52:32 | |
'I'm not going to pretend that we thought | 0:52:32 | 0:52:33 | |
'that we were going to win at any of the trial courts - we did not. | 0:52:33 | 0:52:36 | |
'And if we won at this level, | 0:52:36 | 0:52:39 | |
'it would mean a lot to that single chimpanzee, but it would destroy | 0:52:39 | 0:52:42 | |
'our chance of being able to get it up to appellant court. | 0:52:42 | 0:52:45 | |
'And the reason that we want the decision up at an appellant court | 0:52:45 | 0:52:49 | |
'is that at that point it sets a state-wide precedent. | 0:52:49 | 0:52:52 | |
'And that's why we want the High Court of a state | 0:52:52 | 0:52:56 | |
'to make the decision in our favour. | 0:52:56 | 0:52:58 | |
'So have you already begun the appeals process? | 0:52:58 | 0:53:00 | |
'The appeals, we're already starting. | 0:53:00 | 0:53:02 | |
'The brief writing is going to go through the spring. | 0:53:02 | 0:53:04 | |
'and then we get on some kind of an oral-argument schedule, | 0:53:04 | 0:53:07 | |
'and up it goes.' | 0:53:07 | 0:53:08 | |
-WOMAN: -'A New York appeals court is hearing a legal effort | 0:53:15 | 0:53:18 | |
'to have chimpanzees declared as persons. | 0:53:18 | 0:53:21 | |
'Attorney Steven Wise will argue Wednesday | 0:53:21 | 0:53:24 | |
'on behalf of a chimpanzee named Tommy. | 0:53:24 | 0:53:26 | |
'His group is also seeking | 0:53:26 | 0:53:28 | |
'the release of three other chimps in New York.' | 0:53:28 | 0:53:31 | |
-Oh, boy! -Yes. -I am so nervous. | 0:53:31 | 0:53:33 | |
-This has been, you know, seven years' worth of work. -Yeah. | 0:53:33 | 0:53:37 | |
And it's... You know, everything rests on these ten minutes. | 0:53:37 | 0:53:41 | |
-I still think that one of the arguments is going to be welfare versus rights. -Hmm. | 0:53:41 | 0:53:46 | |
Why is this not a welfare case if you're claiming | 0:53:46 | 0:53:49 | |
-that Tommy is not being properly cared for? -Yeah. | 0:53:49 | 0:53:51 | |
And you have to go back to - | 0:53:51 | 0:53:53 | |
"That's not what we're talking about. | 0:53:53 | 0:53:55 | |
"We're not talking about..." | 0:53:55 | 0:53:56 | |
I can't get suckered into anything other than - | 0:53:56 | 0:53:58 | |
this is the detention of an autonomous being, | 0:53:58 | 0:54:00 | |
-we're not talking about how he's being treated. -Exactly. -Yep. | 0:54:00 | 0:54:03 | |
One thing is with your private animal law cases, | 0:54:03 | 0:54:06 | |
sometimes you get confused whether it's a cat or dog. | 0:54:06 | 0:54:09 | |
Just remember that Tommy's a chimpanzee. | 0:54:09 | 0:54:11 | |
I should... I'll probably remember. | 0:54:11 | 0:54:14 | |
HE LAUGHS | 0:54:14 | 0:54:15 | |
ALL LAUGH | 0:54:15 | 0:54:16 | |
-Steve, how're you doing? -How am I doing? | 0:54:22 | 0:54:24 | |
Oh, I'm just pondering stuff I've been thinking about for 30 years. | 0:54:24 | 0:54:29 | |
HE LAUGHS | 0:54:29 | 0:54:30 | |
First case is matter of Nonhuman Rights Project v Lavery. | 0:54:40 | 0:54:44 | |
-Mr Wise, I believe you're arguing. -Thank you, Your Honour. | 0:54:44 | 0:54:47 | |
May it please the court. My name is Steven Wise | 0:54:47 | 0:54:50 | |
and I first want to thank you for the privilege of appearing on behalf of Tommy, | 0:54:50 | 0:54:54 | |
who is a chimpanzee who is being kept in a cage in a warehouse in a town called Johnstown, New York. | 0:54:54 | 0:55:01 | |
Counsel, you want us to grant... | 0:55:01 | 0:55:03 | |
-Well, you wanted Judge Sise, but now you want us... -Yes, Your Honour. | 0:55:03 | 0:55:06 | |
..to grant him immediate release from illegal detention. | 0:55:06 | 0:55:09 | |
-Is that correct? -Yes, Your Honour. | 0:55:09 | 0:55:11 | |
Tommy in this circumstance is indeed a person who is entitled... | 0:55:11 | 0:55:15 | |
-YOU assert he is a person - we haven't decided that. -Yes, Your Honour. | 0:55:15 | 0:55:18 | |
We do assert, that is our position, | 0:55:18 | 0:55:21 | |
that he is indeed a person and he is entitled then | 0:55:21 | 0:55:24 | |
to a common law writ of habeas corpus. | 0:55:24 | 0:55:26 | |
-Now, usually writs of habeas corpus involve adult human beings. -Correct. | 0:55:26 | 0:55:29 | |
But there are many cases that have involved children. | 0:55:29 | 0:55:32 | |
For example, slave children in Massachusetts. | 0:55:32 | 0:55:35 | |
But there are no writs of habeas corpus at least in this state | 0:55:35 | 0:55:38 | |
that have involved nonhumans. Do you agree with that? | 0:55:38 | 0:55:40 | |
I do agree with that. This is a novel case in...in that way. | 0:55:40 | 0:55:44 | |
-However... -Even you in your brief, | 0:55:44 | 0:55:46 | |
when you talk about individual rights, | 0:55:46 | 0:55:48 | |
you talk about the fact that along with those individual rights come responsibilities. | 0:55:48 | 0:55:52 | |
And you don't want us to foist any responsibilities upon this chimpanzee, | 0:55:52 | 0:55:56 | |
you just want us to determine that he has the opportunity to be free of this confinement. | 0:55:56 | 0:56:01 | |
The better way to view Tommy would be... | 0:56:01 | 0:56:05 | |
similar to a human child who has...who has rights, | 0:56:05 | 0:56:09 | |
you can't put a little child in a cage, | 0:56:09 | 0:56:11 | |
but doesn't have correlative responsibilities. | 0:56:11 | 0:56:13 | |
Mr Wise, if I may? Yes, Your Honour. | 0:56:13 | 0:56:15 | |
Corporations have been treated as legal persons | 0:56:15 | 0:56:18 | |
in a different context. | 0:56:18 | 0:56:19 | |
Citizens United, for example, is one case. | 0:56:19 | 0:56:22 | |
Can you give any example anywhere where, in a habeas corpus context, | 0:56:22 | 0:56:28 | |
the word "person" has been attributed to a nonhuman being? | 0:56:28 | 0:56:32 | |
A person is not synonymous with a human being. | 0:56:32 | 0:56:35 | |
A person means it's someone that the civil law now says counts, | 0:56:35 | 0:56:39 | |
they're no longer invisible to the civil law. | 0:56:39 | 0:56:41 | |
So we cited other common law countries. | 0:56:41 | 0:56:43 | |
An Indian court finds | 0:56:43 | 0:56:45 | |
that the holy books of the Sikh religion are persons. | 0:56:45 | 0:56:49 | |
And, in 2012, there was a treaty | 0:56:49 | 0:56:50 | |
between the indigenous peoples of New Zealand and the Crown | 0:56:50 | 0:56:55 | |
that designated a river as a legal person. | 0:56:55 | 0:56:57 | |
So a legal person is a legal concept, | 0:56:57 | 0:57:01 | |
it is not a biological concept, | 0:57:01 | 0:57:02 | |
which was the teaching of the Court of Appeals in Bern. | 0:57:02 | 0:57:05 | |
We know that from your brief. | 0:57:05 | 0:57:06 | |
Did you ask the owners whether they would just agree to allow you | 0:57:06 | 0:57:10 | |
to take custody of Tommy and place him in the preserve? | 0:57:10 | 0:57:13 | |
-And if preserve's the wrong word, I apologise. -Repeatedly. | 0:57:13 | 0:57:16 | |
We even said that we would drop this case | 0:57:16 | 0:57:18 | |
if the respondent agreed to move him to a sanctuary. | 0:57:18 | 0:57:22 | |
And only when we learned he didn't do that | 0:57:22 | 0:57:24 | |
and he was going to move him to someplace that was just about as bad as where he is now, | 0:57:24 | 0:57:28 | |
then we started the preliminary injunction which this court allowed. | 0:57:28 | 0:57:32 | |
So, can we safely assume that the role of this proceeding | 0:57:32 | 0:57:36 | |
-is to promote the wellbeing of the chimpanzee? -No. | 0:57:36 | 0:57:40 | |
There's only one goal for the proceeding, | 0:57:40 | 0:57:43 | |
cos it's a common law habeas corpus proceeding | 0:57:43 | 0:57:45 | |
to discharge the chimpanzee if it's not unlawful. | 0:57:45 | 0:57:49 | |
So are you saying that you're not interested | 0:57:49 | 0:57:51 | |
in promoting the chimpanzee's wellbeing? | 0:57:51 | 0:57:54 | |
That is not the purpose of our suit. | 0:57:54 | 0:57:56 | |
Well, then maybe then the key here is a legislative lobbying activity | 0:57:56 | 0:58:00 | |
to ensure that the statutes are changed. | 0:58:00 | 0:58:04 | |
That is one option, | 0:58:04 | 0:58:05 | |
but the courts and the legislatures are co-equal branches here. | 0:58:05 | 0:58:10 | |
-Yes, we're well aware of that. -I'm sure you are. | 0:58:10 | 0:58:12 | |
This...this reminds me, for example, | 0:58:12 | 0:58:14 | |
of the arguments that were brought up | 0:58:14 | 0:58:16 | |
in the famous Somerset versus Stewart case, | 0:58:16 | 0:58:18 | |
which is part of New York common law, | 0:58:18 | 0:58:19 | |
where a slave was made free | 0:58:19 | 0:58:21 | |
and Lord Mansfield understood that he had a judicial duty, | 0:58:21 | 0:58:25 | |
as this court does have a judicial duty to change the common law. | 0:58:25 | 0:58:28 | |
I have to tell you, I keep having a difficult time | 0:58:28 | 0:58:33 | |
with your using slavery as an analogy to this situation. | 0:58:33 | 0:58:37 | |
-I just have to tell you that. -Let me suggest this - | 0:58:37 | 0:58:42 | |
that by referring to human slavery, | 0:58:42 | 0:58:45 | |
-we are in no way comparing Tommy to any... -I understand. | 0:58:45 | 0:58:47 | |
But my suggestion is you move in a different direction | 0:58:47 | 0:58:50 | |
-for the next two minutes. -OK. | 0:58:50 | 0:58:51 | |
The abilities of self-determination and autonomy | 0:58:51 | 0:58:55 | |
are supreme values within the common law. | 0:58:55 | 0:58:57 | |
And these are also the same values | 0:58:57 | 0:58:59 | |
that the writ of habeas corpus was constructed over the centuries to protect. | 0:58:59 | 0:59:04 | |
And we ask this court to not necessarily find that Tommy is a person, | 0:59:04 | 0:59:08 | |
but assuming, as Lord Mansfield did, | 0:59:08 | 0:59:10 | |
without deciding that Tommy could be a person, | 0:59:10 | 0:59:13 | |
remanding to the court with an order to show cause and then proceed in accordance with Article 70. | 0:59:13 | 0:59:18 | |
-Thank you, Counsel. -Thank you, Your Honours. | 0:59:18 | 0:59:21 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:59:28 | 0:59:31 | |
We were exceedingly happy with the way the oral argument went. | 0:59:34 | 0:59:37 | |
We thought the judges had clearly read the brief, | 0:59:37 | 0:59:40 | |
were familiar with our record. | 0:59:40 | 0:59:42 | |
They asked really intelligent, probing questions. | 0:59:42 | 0:59:45 | |
-WOMAN: -You compared Tommy's condition to slavery - | 0:59:45 | 0:59:48 | |
-tell me why that is. -Well, Tommy is a legal thing right now. | 0:59:48 | 0:59:52 | |
And while the courts sometimes don't like us | 0:59:52 | 0:59:55 | |
to compare the thinghood of Tommy with the thinghood of a human slave, | 0:59:55 | 0:59:59 | |
we apologise and say the only reason we do that | 0:59:59 | 1:00:03 | |
is because Tommy has a right to get out | 1:00:03 | 1:00:05 | |
of being held for his entire life in solitary confinement in a cage. | 1:00:05 | 1:00:10 | |
Chimpanzees should have the sort of rights | 1:00:13 | 1:00:16 | |
that go along with the sort of being that they are. | 1:00:16 | 1:00:19 | |
They clearly are never going to be able to vote, | 1:00:19 | 1:00:21 | |
they're never going to be able to marry. | 1:00:21 | 1:00:23 | |
I think a rule of thumb would be, | 1:00:23 | 1:00:25 | |
the sort of rights that, say, a human five-year-old should have. | 1:00:25 | 1:00:29 | |
Where do you draw the line? | 1:00:29 | 1:00:31 | |
Could you ever imagine a day when it's regarded as illegal | 1:00:31 | 1:00:35 | |
to kill and eat a cow, for example, | 1:00:35 | 1:00:37 | |
because that cow is a sentient animal? | 1:00:37 | 1:00:39 | |
I can imagine almost anything, | 1:00:39 | 1:00:41 | |
but I don't know whether that day will come and if so, you know, when. | 1:00:41 | 1:00:46 | |
It'll be probably my great-great-great grandchildren. | 1:00:46 | 1:00:49 | |
Do you regard yourself as making step number one towards that? | 1:00:49 | 1:00:52 | |
We are intentionally making it step one. | 1:00:52 | 1:00:55 | |
Please welcome Steven Wise! | 1:00:55 | 1:00:57 | |
CHEERING | 1:00:57 | 1:00:59 | |
This case is just the beginning. | 1:00:59 | 1:01:01 | |
Then my dog can sue to get on my couch. | 1:01:01 | 1:01:04 | |
LAUGHTER | 1:01:04 | 1:01:06 | |
I didn't say your dog, I said your chimpanzee. | 1:01:06 | 1:01:09 | |
-What do you have against my dog? -LAUGHTER | 1:01:09 | 1:01:11 | |
I'll give you my card, you give the card to your dog. | 1:01:11 | 1:01:14 | |
LAUGHTER | 1:01:14 | 1:01:15 | |
Listen, if Tommy wants to have rights... | 1:01:18 | 1:01:20 | |
CHEERING | 1:01:20 | 1:01:21 | |
If Tommy wants to have rights as a person, | 1:01:21 | 1:01:24 | |
-he should form his own corporation. -LAUGHTER | 1:01:24 | 1:01:26 | |
-CHEERING -Thank you so much. | 1:01:26 | 1:01:29 | |
-What time is it now? -10:23. -Oh, boy! | 1:01:45 | 1:01:48 | |
HE HUMS | 1:01:48 | 1:01:50 | |
I...I still think that the fact that it has taken them eight weeks - | 1:01:53 | 1:01:57 | |
correct? - this is eight weeks? | 1:01:57 | 1:01:59 | |
It's a long time. They have to come up with something better than, "This is something for the legislature." | 1:01:59 | 1:02:05 | |
-Mm-hm. -I think that they are going to have a discussion of personhood. | 1:02:05 | 1:02:10 | |
-I really do. -I hope so. | 1:02:10 | 1:02:12 | |
I think they will. | 1:02:12 | 1:02:14 | |
-Oh, here we go. -Is it there? -Yep, it's here. -Ahh! -OK. | 1:02:17 | 1:02:21 | |
-Let's go. -I'm shaking. I'm, like, actually shaking. | 1:02:21 | 1:02:25 | |
"The subject of this litigation is a chimpanzee known as Tommy | 1:02:25 | 1:02:28 | |
"that is presently being kept | 1:02:28 | 1:02:30 | |
"in the city of Gloversville, Fulton County. | 1:02:30 | 1:02:32 | |
"This appeal presents the novel question | 1:02:32 | 1:02:34 | |
"of whether a chimpanzee is a person entitled to the rights | 1:02:34 | 1:02:37 | |
-"and protections afforded by the writ of habeas corpus." -OK. | 1:02:37 | 1:02:41 | |
"Needless to say, unlike human beings, | 1:02:41 | 1:02:43 | |
"chimpanzees cannot bear any legal duties, | 1:02:43 | 1:02:45 | |
"submit to societal responsibilities | 1:02:45 | 1:02:47 | |
"or be held legally accountable for their actions. | 1:02:47 | 1:02:50 | |
"In our view, it is this incapability to bear any legal responsibilities | 1:02:50 | 1:02:54 | |
"and societal duties that renders it inappropriate to confer upon chimpanzees the legal rights..." | 1:02:54 | 1:02:59 | |
Oh! I never thought | 1:02:59 | 1:03:01 | |
-that their decision would rest on duties. -Reciprocal... -Never! | 1:03:01 | 1:03:05 | |
-Did we talk about this argument? -Yes! | 1:03:05 | 1:03:08 | |
-We talked about... -How you can have an incompetent, you can have a child, | 1:03:08 | 1:03:11 | |
they don't have...there's no reciprocity of duties and obligations. | 1:03:11 | 1:03:15 | |
-So are they saying that an infant...? -I know. | 1:03:15 | 1:03:18 | |
-I'm saying the implications... -Or a handicapped person, or a person who's insane? -I know. | 1:03:18 | 1:03:22 | |
"To be sure, some humans are less able to bear legal duties or responsibilities than others. | 1:03:22 | 1:03:26 | |
"These differences do not alter our analysis, | 1:03:26 | 1:03:29 | |
"as it is undeniable that collectively human beings possess | 1:03:29 | 1:03:32 | |
"the unique ability to bear legal responsibility." | 1:03:32 | 1:03:35 | |
-Is that it? -That's it. | 1:03:35 | 1:03:38 | |
OK. | 1:03:38 | 1:03:41 | |
-Wow! -So, basically, they're ruling against Tommy because of his species. -Yeah. | 1:03:41 | 1:03:46 | |
It's a very philosophically conservative way of saying | 1:03:46 | 1:03:49 | |
because animals can't enter into contracts especially, | 1:03:49 | 1:03:52 | |
essentially you can make them slaves for their whole lives. | 1:03:52 | 1:03:55 | |
-Right. This is a bad, bad, bad decision. -That's right. | 1:03:55 | 1:04:01 | |
-WOMAN: -'In the first case of its kind, | 1:04:06 | 1:04:08 | |
'a New York appeals court has rejected | 1:04:08 | 1:04:11 | |
'an animal rights advocate's bid | 1:04:11 | 1:04:13 | |
'to extend legal personhood to chimpanzees.' | 1:04:13 | 1:04:16 | |
-WOMAN: -'Judges in the appeal | 1:04:16 | 1:04:18 | |
'wrote that since chimpanzees have no legal responsibility for their actions, | 1:04:18 | 1:04:22 | |
'they can't be granted the same rights as people.' | 1:04:22 | 1:04:25 | |
-MAN: -'Meanwhile, the Nonhuman Rights Project | 1:04:26 | 1:04:28 | |
'continues its legal challenge on behalf of Kiko, | 1:04:28 | 1:04:31 | |
'a 26-year-old chimp currently residing in Niagara Falls, | 1:04:31 | 1:04:33 | |
'New York.' | 1:04:33 | 1:04:35 | |
GAVEL BANGS | 1:04:35 | 1:04:37 | |
-WOMAN: -Can I ask you a question? | 1:04:37 | 1:04:38 | |
If Kiko were to be let out of where Kiko is currently being held, | 1:04:38 | 1:04:43 | |
you're not asking that Kiko go out in the street, | 1:04:43 | 1:04:46 | |
you're saying that Kiko would still be confined, but in a sanctuary? | 1:04:46 | 1:04:51 | |
That is correct. Kiko would go to Save The Chimps, | 1:04:51 | 1:04:55 | |
which is a sanctuary with islands in a lake. | 1:04:55 | 1:04:58 | |
But he's still going from one confinement which is bad to another confinement which is better? | 1:04:58 | 1:05:02 | |
Much, much better. And his autonomy and his ability to self-determine | 1:05:02 | 1:05:07 | |
will be allowed to flourish in a way that it's not allowed to flourish now. | 1:05:07 | 1:05:11 | |
So Kiko's case was even more interesting. | 1:05:13 | 1:05:16 | |
What happened there is that the judges decided | 1:05:16 | 1:05:19 | |
that you can't use a writ of habeas corpus to move | 1:05:19 | 1:05:21 | |
from one place of confinement to another place | 1:05:21 | 1:05:25 | |
of...not entire freedom. | 1:05:25 | 1:05:26 | |
But we had pointed out to them that children, apprentices, | 1:05:26 | 1:05:30 | |
people with mental disorders, | 1:05:30 | 1:05:32 | |
there were a dozen or more cases | 1:05:32 | 1:05:34 | |
in the state of New York where, subject to writs of habeas corpus, | 1:05:34 | 1:05:37 | |
they weren't just thrown out on the street - | 1:05:37 | 1:05:39 | |
they were put under the protection of an adult. | 1:05:39 | 1:05:42 | |
In other words, we didn't lose because Kiko was a chimpanzee - | 1:05:42 | 1:05:45 | |
their holding also applies to human beings. | 1:05:45 | 1:05:49 | |
So while we're trying to expand the writ of habeas corpus to chimpanzees, | 1:05:49 | 1:05:53 | |
the court responds by cutting it back for humans. | 1:05:53 | 1:05:56 | |
That was not what we were trying to do. | 1:05:56 | 1:05:58 | |
These decisions so far, we think that both of them | 1:06:01 | 1:06:04 | |
were legally wrong and are kind of obviously legally wrong. | 1:06:04 | 1:06:08 | |
They truly don't yet grasp what we're trying to do. | 1:06:08 | 1:06:12 | |
And clearly there's no agreed-upon reason why we should lose. | 1:06:12 | 1:06:17 | |
But what we're concerned about is that these judges | 1:06:25 | 1:06:27 | |
were either consciously or unconsciously thinking, | 1:06:27 | 1:06:30 | |
"If they're not human, they're not going to have rights." | 1:06:30 | 1:06:33 | |
And so what they've done | 1:06:33 | 1:06:35 | |
is they've tried to find some other reason for us to lose. | 1:06:35 | 1:06:39 | |
That's a frightening thing for an advocate to feel, | 1:06:41 | 1:06:43 | |
that you're up against someone who either consciously or unconsciously | 1:06:43 | 1:06:46 | |
believes that there's nothing I can tell them that's ever going to cause them to rule in my favour. | 1:06:46 | 1:06:51 | |
DOG BARKS | 1:07:07 | 1:07:08 | |
Let me see. | 1:07:13 | 1:07:14 | |
TV PLAYS | 1:07:22 | 1:07:24 | |
-WOMAN: -'Oh, this is the part where he's going off to school. | 1:07:31 | 1:07:35 | |
'She's turning her back. This is a sad scene. | 1:07:36 | 1:07:39 | |
'And they all kiss him and kiss him goodbye. | 1:07:39 | 1:07:42 | |
'Oh, honey, it's sad. I know it's a sad scene. | 1:07:51 | 1:07:54 | |
'Oh, hon, they're crying. They are crying on the movie. | 1:07:54 | 1:07:57 | |
'Oh, honey. And there's trouble. Sad trouble. Bad. | 1:07:57 | 1:08:01 | |
'Oh, sweetie, with the mother, yes. The sweet mother. | 1:08:01 | 1:08:05 | |
'The one who adopted him. | 1:08:05 | 1:08:07 | |
'Well, I know, it's sad.' | 1:08:07 | 1:08:08 | |
'These animals, they are extraordinary. | 1:08:08 | 1:08:11 | |
'And I feel a moral responsibility to try to allow them | 1:08:11 | 1:08:14 | |
'to live their lives the way I can live my life. | 1:08:14 | 1:08:18 | |
'And so we just refiled Hercules and Leo, | 1:08:20 | 1:08:23 | |
'because one of the beauties of writs of habeas corpus | 1:08:23 | 1:08:26 | |
'is that because they're protecting fundamental bodily liberty, | 1:08:26 | 1:08:29 | |
'they allow you to file again and again and again. | 1:08:29 | 1:08:33 | |
'And so now we're looking for judges | 1:08:37 | 1:08:39 | |
'who are willing to all of a sudden see our plaintiff in a different light. | 1:08:39 | 1:08:44 | |
'And we think that they're out there.' | 1:08:44 | 1:08:46 | |
-MAN: -'For the first time in history, | 1:08:54 | 1:08:56 | |
'a judge has recognised animals as legal persons. | 1:08:56 | 1:08:59 | |
'New York Supreme Court Justice Barbara Jaffe | 1:08:59 | 1:09:02 | |
'decreed two chimpanzees held in a research lab | 1:09:02 | 1:09:04 | |
'at Stony Brook University are covered by a writ of habeas corpus.' | 1:09:04 | 1:09:08 | |
-WOMAN: -'The Nonhuman Rights Project | 1:09:08 | 1:09:10 | |
'has been granted a writ of habeas corpus | 1:09:10 | 1:09:12 | |
'requiring the State University of New York | 1:09:12 | 1:09:15 | |
'to defend its right to keep the primates Hercules and Leo.' | 1:09:15 | 1:09:19 | |
'The lawsuit was originally filed back in 2013, | 1:09:19 | 1:09:21 | |
'but was quickly thrown out. | 1:09:21 | 1:09:24 | |
'The group has been appealing ever since | 1:09:24 | 1:09:26 | |
'and their tireless efforts seem to have paid off. | 1:09:26 | 1:09:28 | |
'The animal rights group said by granting the writ, | 1:09:28 | 1:09:31 | |
'the judge implicitly acknowledges apes are persons. | 1:09:31 | 1:09:34 | |
'Clearly, she's hoping to receive preferential treatment | 1:09:34 | 1:09:38 | |
'when they take over.' | 1:09:38 | 1:09:40 | |
It's a mad house! | 1:09:40 | 1:09:42 | |
'A few hours ago, I opened up my e-mail | 1:09:50 | 1:09:53 | |
'and it said Judge Jaffe in the Supreme Court in Manhattan | 1:09:53 | 1:09:56 | |
'did issue the writ of habeas corpus.' | 1:09:56 | 1:09:59 | |
And the first.. HE LAUGHS | 1:09:59 | 1:10:01 | |
The first thing I did is try to remember what date it was | 1:10:01 | 1:10:05 | |
in case it was April Fools' Day. | 1:10:05 | 1:10:07 | |
I thought that maybe Liddy was tormenting me | 1:10:07 | 1:10:09 | |
by sending me a fake e-mail. | 1:10:09 | 1:10:10 | |
And even then I didn't believe her until she sent me the actual order. | 1:10:10 | 1:10:15 | |
So I said, "OK, I believe you, it happened." | 1:10:15 | 1:10:17 | |
And I started... Actually, I started crying. | 1:10:17 | 1:10:20 | |
And then I said, "OK, I'll let myself cry for 20 seconds | 1:10:20 | 1:10:23 | |
"and now we've got a lot of work to do." | 1:10:23 | 1:10:25 | |
It's amazing. | 1:10:27 | 1:10:28 | |
More on Hercules and Leo. It's crazy. | 1:10:28 | 1:10:33 | |
The New York Supreme Court Justice | 1:10:33 | 1:10:35 | |
ordered a Stony Brook University representative to appear in court | 1:10:35 | 1:10:38 | |
in May to respond to the petition. | 1:10:38 | 1:10:40 | |
Stony Brook told us, | 1:10:40 | 1:10:41 | |
"Stony Brook University is unable to comment on the referenced lawsuit." | 1:10:41 | 1:10:45 | |
Stony Brook is freaking out for sure. | 1:10:49 | 1:10:51 | |
OK, now, let's see. | 1:11:05 | 1:11:08 | |
This could be a problem. | 1:11:09 | 1:11:11 | |
So, Steve, I got an e-mail from the judge | 1:11:11 | 1:11:14 | |
saying that we put out something | 1:11:14 | 1:11:17 | |
in OUR press statement that was misleading. | 1:11:17 | 1:11:21 | |
What do you think that was? | 1:11:21 | 1:11:22 | |
The recognition of personhood | 1:11:22 | 1:11:24 | |
because we probably should have said "may be persons". | 1:11:24 | 1:11:27 | |
OK. So, how are we going to do this? What are we going to say, then? | 1:11:29 | 1:11:32 | |
Because if the judge is peeved at all, we don't want to upset her. | 1:11:32 | 1:11:35 | |
Absolutely. | 1:11:35 | 1:11:36 | |
And this is why we're saying, does she really know what | 1:11:36 | 1:11:39 | |
she has done here? Obviously she didn't. | 1:11:39 | 1:11:43 | |
Yesterday afternoon, Liddy got an e-mail claiming that the judge, | 1:11:45 | 1:11:49 | |
on reconsideration, | 1:11:49 | 1:11:51 | |
hadn't intended to treat Hercules and Leo as persons. | 1:11:51 | 1:11:54 | |
So what the judge had done was simply strike out the words | 1:11:56 | 1:12:00 | |
"and writ of habeas corpus" from the original order | 1:12:00 | 1:12:03 | |
to show cause and writ of habeas corpus. | 1:12:03 | 1:12:06 | |
But from a legal point of view, there was no difference. | 1:12:07 | 1:12:10 | |
All the Nonhuman Rights Project wants is Stony Brook | 1:12:10 | 1:12:13 | |
to come into court and defend their imprisonment of Hercules and Leo. | 1:12:13 | 1:12:19 | |
-Are you there, Liddy? -I'm here. | 1:12:32 | 1:12:34 | |
-OK, I'm checking it now. -OK. | 1:12:34 | 1:12:38 | |
How about their argument that Lavery | 1:12:39 | 1:12:41 | |
is binding upon them in New York County? | 1:12:41 | 1:12:44 | |
-I didn't get to that. What page? -That's on page 13. | 1:12:44 | 1:12:47 | |
Let me take a look at the cases that they've cited here. | 1:12:47 | 1:12:51 | |
"Trial courts within this department must follow the determination | 1:12:51 | 1:12:54 | |
"of the Appellate Division..." | 1:12:54 | 1:12:57 | |
OK, that's of concern. | 1:12:57 | 1:12:59 | |
That would mean we would lose on Wednesday | 1:13:01 | 1:13:03 | |
because Judge Jaffe is going to feel bound to rule against us | 1:13:03 | 1:13:08 | |
simply based on what the Tommy court and the Kiko court did. | 1:13:08 | 1:13:11 | |
That's going to be tough to get around. | 1:13:13 | 1:13:15 | |
Whoa! | 1:13:32 | 1:13:33 | |
It's the 50lbs of files. | 1:13:34 | 1:13:36 | |
What we've been expecting is that the Attorney General's | 1:13:38 | 1:13:41 | |
going to be trying to throw up procedural obstacles, | 1:13:41 | 1:13:44 | |
roadblocks so that we never actually get to the issue of personhood. | 1:13:44 | 1:13:47 | |
But I think the Attorney General will be | 1:13:56 | 1:13:57 | |
confronted with an opponent who is very much more prepared than he is. | 1:13:57 | 1:14:02 | |
Good morning and welcome. | 1:14:05 | 1:14:07 | |
We are here for oral argument by the lawyers in this case | 1:14:07 | 1:14:12 | |
and only they have permission to speak. | 1:14:12 | 1:14:14 | |
I thus sign the order in anticipation of hearing | 1:14:14 | 1:14:18 | |
both sides address the procedural and substantive issues raised. | 1:14:18 | 1:14:23 | |
First, I want to bring to the attention of the court | 1:14:23 | 1:14:28 | |
that my brother was... | 1:14:28 | 1:14:30 | |
In Massachusetts, we call the other lawyer "brother" and "sister" | 1:14:30 | 1:14:32 | |
and sometimes judges don't know what I'm talking about, | 1:14:32 | 1:14:35 | |
so if it's all right, I'll just refer to him as "my brother". | 1:14:35 | 1:14:38 | |
Hearing no objection? | 1:14:38 | 1:14:40 | |
-No, ma'am, I do not object. -OK. | 1:14:40 | 1:14:41 | |
I've never had a brother. | 1:14:41 | 1:14:43 | |
So, without the Appellate Division decisions, Mr Wise... | 1:14:43 | 1:14:47 | |
Yes, we do have something to say about that. | 1:14:47 | 1:14:50 | |
Yes, I think you have to address it. | 1:14:50 | 1:14:52 | |
Aren't I bound? | 1:14:52 | 1:14:54 | |
My brother argues that the Lavery and Presti cases | 1:14:54 | 1:14:58 | |
are binding upon this court. | 1:14:58 | 1:15:00 | |
Now, the State versus Moore case | 1:15:00 | 1:15:03 | |
states that an appellate determination | 1:15:03 | 1:15:06 | |
is binding only if it involves | 1:15:06 | 1:15:09 | |
"settled principles of law and legal issues". | 1:15:09 | 1:15:12 | |
But the case is indeed ongoing | 1:15:12 | 1:15:15 | |
and we believe that it is reasonably likely | 1:15:15 | 1:15:18 | |
that the Court of Appeals will indeed | 1:15:18 | 1:15:20 | |
take further review of the Lavery case. | 1:15:20 | 1:15:22 | |
Thank you. We'll turn now to the issue of personhood. Mr Coulston. | 1:15:22 | 1:15:26 | |
Your Honour, there is simply no precedent | 1:15:26 | 1:15:29 | |
ANYWHERE of a nonhuman animal | 1:15:29 | 1:15:32 | |
receiving the kinds of rights they're talking about. | 1:15:32 | 1:15:35 | |
The exceptions that do exist, | 1:15:35 | 1:15:37 | |
to legal personhood being assigned to something that's not human, | 1:15:37 | 1:15:40 | |
in every instance that they've cited, | 1:15:40 | 1:15:43 | |
it's something that in some way relates to human interests, | 1:15:43 | 1:15:45 | |
whether it's a corporation, whether a ship is treated as a legal person. | 1:15:45 | 1:15:49 | |
We think that really is the principle | 1:15:49 | 1:15:50 | |
that's governing the assignment of legal personhood. | 1:15:50 | 1:15:53 | |
We think that's what the Lavery court said | 1:15:53 | 1:15:55 | |
and we think that's the law, Your Honour, | 1:15:55 | 1:15:57 | |
and we don't know of any exceptions otherwise | 1:15:57 | 1:15:59 | |
and the petitioner hasn't cited any. | 1:15:59 | 1:16:01 | |
OK, thank you. Mr Wise? | 1:16:01 | 1:16:04 | |
Your Honour, to say that no nonhuman animal | 1:16:04 | 1:16:07 | |
has ever been the recipient of a writ of habeas corpus, well, | 1:16:07 | 1:16:12 | |
until the Nonhuman Rights Project had begun filing these suits, | 1:16:12 | 1:16:15 | |
no-one had ever asked and the entire hearing has to be looked at | 1:16:15 | 1:16:19 | |
in the context of extraordinary purpose of a writ of habeas corpus. | 1:16:19 | 1:16:24 | |
It is the most important writ in the arsenal of writs | 1:16:24 | 1:16:29 | |
that are in the Anglo-Saxon heritage. | 1:16:29 | 1:16:31 | |
It's not called the Great Writ - capital G, capital W - for nothing | 1:16:31 | 1:16:35 | |
and the very purpose is to protect | 1:16:35 | 1:16:37 | |
autonomous and self-determining beings. | 1:16:37 | 1:16:40 | |
But science has shown us over the last 50 years, | 1:16:40 | 1:16:43 | |
especially over the last 20, | 1:16:43 | 1:16:45 | |
that there are more autonomous beings in this world | 1:16:45 | 1:16:48 | |
than just human beings. | 1:16:48 | 1:16:50 | |
Chimpanzees are not governed by instinct. | 1:16:50 | 1:16:53 | |
They are self-conscious, they have a theory of mind, | 1:16:53 | 1:16:57 | |
they can understand what others are thinking. | 1:16:57 | 1:16:59 | |
They understand that they are individuals, | 1:16:59 | 1:17:01 | |
that their lives mean something to them, | 1:17:01 | 1:17:04 | |
which is one of the reasons why imprisoning a chimpanzee | 1:17:04 | 1:17:08 | |
is at least as bad and maybe even worse | 1:17:08 | 1:17:10 | |
than imprisoning a human being | 1:17:10 | 1:17:12 | |
because chimpanzees who are in prison | 1:17:12 | 1:17:14 | |
and essentially being exploited by Stony Brook now, | 1:17:14 | 1:17:19 | |
that they are... | 1:17:19 | 1:17:22 | |
They don't even know why they're there. | 1:17:22 | 1:17:24 | |
These are the sort of things | 1:17:24 | 1:17:26 | |
that we would only do to our worst criminals amongst us | 1:17:26 | 1:17:29 | |
and one thing I want to make clear is that our argument is limited, | 1:17:29 | 1:17:33 | |
extremely limited, to the argument that Hercules and Leo, | 1:17:33 | 1:17:38 | |
these chimpanzees, should be persons | 1:17:38 | 1:17:41 | |
solely for the purpose of a common law writ of habeas corpus. | 1:17:41 | 1:17:45 | |
Thank you. | 1:17:45 | 1:17:46 | |
Understanding what Mr Wise refers to as the Great Writ | 1:17:46 | 1:17:50 | |
and what it means to us | 1:17:50 | 1:17:51 | |
and I think another judge of this court many years ago | 1:17:51 | 1:17:55 | |
referred to it as a "powerful and broad tool | 1:17:55 | 1:17:58 | |
"subject to expansive interpretation" | 1:17:58 | 1:18:02 | |
and our understanding that the law evolves | 1:18:02 | 1:18:06 | |
according to scientific discovery, social mores - | 1:18:06 | 1:18:09 | |
witness marital rights - | 1:18:09 | 1:18:11 | |
isn't it incumbent upon the judiciary to at least consider | 1:18:11 | 1:18:16 | |
whether a class of beings may be granted a right | 1:18:16 | 1:18:21 | |
or something short of a right under the habeas statute, | 1:18:21 | 1:18:26 | |
some kind of special status? | 1:18:26 | 1:18:29 | |
Thus why can't a chimpanzee, by virtue of the traits documented | 1:18:29 | 1:18:34 | |
in petitioner's exhibits, be deemed a person for the sole purposes | 1:18:34 | 1:18:41 | |
Mr Wise says, of permitting the writ to the very limited extent sought? | 1:18:41 | 1:18:47 | |
Why isn't that an appropriate use of this Great Writ? | 1:18:47 | 1:18:51 | |
Your Honour, what has been diminished all along | 1:18:53 | 1:18:56 | |
in this proceeding is how different it is, what they're actually trying | 1:18:56 | 1:19:00 | |
to do, how the similarities that they paint - | 1:19:00 | 1:19:03 | |
you can talk about 99% of DNA | 1:19:03 | 1:19:06 | |
and other aspects that create similarities - | 1:19:06 | 1:19:09 | |
but the reality is that these are fundamentally different species. | 1:19:09 | 1:19:12 | |
I worry about the diminishment of these rights in some way | 1:19:12 | 1:19:16 | |
if we expand them beyond human beings. | 1:19:16 | 1:19:19 | |
I also think courts are simply just not going to be equipped | 1:19:19 | 1:19:23 | |
to determine where this new line is going to be | 1:19:23 | 1:19:26 | |
for these vague categories | 1:19:26 | 1:19:27 | |
that, yes, they've given them some scientific heft, | 1:19:27 | 1:19:30 | |
but autonomy and self-determining? | 1:19:30 | 1:19:32 | |
This just becomes a question of where are we going. | 1:19:32 | 1:19:35 | |
You absolutely are opening the possible floodgates | 1:19:35 | 1:19:37 | |
and it is a Great Writ, but it's been a Great Writ for human beings. | 1:19:37 | 1:19:40 | |
I think it should stay there | 1:19:40 | 1:19:42 | |
and I think the ramifications are ones | 1:19:42 | 1:19:44 | |
that we can't always foresee and could have a dramatic effect | 1:19:44 | 1:19:47 | |
not only on our understanding of how important these rights are | 1:19:47 | 1:19:51 | |
to human beings, but in applications that could | 1:19:51 | 1:19:54 | |
affect our society in a negative way. | 1:19:54 | 1:19:57 | |
Thank you. | 1:19:58 | 1:19:59 | |
VOICES CLAMOUR | 1:20:03 | 1:20:06 | |
Mr Wise, how did it go? | 1:20:06 | 1:20:08 | |
If you define a good hearing as one in which | 1:20:08 | 1:20:10 | |
the judge asks a lot of questions and is clearly giving both sides | 1:20:10 | 1:20:13 | |
a fair and comprehensive listen, I thought it went great. | 1:20:13 | 1:20:17 | |
What happens now? | 1:20:17 | 1:20:19 | |
I believe the judge is going to take it under advisement | 1:20:19 | 1:20:21 | |
and, sometime in the next month or two, we should have a decision. | 1:20:21 | 1:20:25 | |
Steven, quick question. | 1:20:25 | 1:20:26 | |
How significant is the fact that this hearing today even took place? | 1:20:26 | 1:20:30 | |
It is highly significant | 1:20:30 | 1:20:32 | |
because a writ of habeas corpus hearing for a nonhuman animal | 1:20:32 | 1:20:36 | |
is being held in the same way it would be for a human being, | 1:20:36 | 1:20:39 | |
so we are now being treated | 1:20:39 | 1:20:41 | |
like all the other autonomous beings of this world. | 1:20:41 | 1:20:44 | |
So, is this a partial victory? | 1:20:44 | 1:20:46 | |
It's a partial victory just standing here, yes. Yes. | 1:20:46 | 1:20:50 | |
CHEERING AND APPLAUSE | 1:20:50 | 1:20:52 | |
Is this a race down to see who gets down first? | 1:20:55 | 1:20:58 | |
'Judges are kind of a conservative bunch, | 1:20:58 | 1:21:00 | |
'they don't want to get too far ahead of the rest of society, | 1:21:00 | 1:21:04 | |
'but these judges don't quite realise how much society has moved.' | 1:21:04 | 1:21:09 | |
The boundary between human and animal intelligence | 1:21:10 | 1:21:14 | |
is much narrower than we thought. | 1:21:14 | 1:21:16 | |
Scientists who study them | 1:21:16 | 1:21:17 | |
say there is a lot more happening there than just play, | 1:21:17 | 1:21:20 | |
that their intelligence actually rivals ours. | 1:21:20 | 1:21:24 | |
Elephants are certainly | 1:21:24 | 1:21:25 | |
one of the most intelligent species in the animal kingdom. | 1:21:25 | 1:21:28 | |
The more we learn about elephant cognition, | 1:21:28 | 1:21:30 | |
the more we learn about the evolution of behaviour | 1:21:30 | 1:21:33 | |
and intelligence in general. | 1:21:33 | 1:21:35 | |
Wow, this is a hell of a story! | 1:21:38 | 1:21:41 | |
A recent poll finds one third of Americans thinks animals | 1:21:41 | 1:21:43 | |
-should have the same rights as people. -Interesting. | 1:21:43 | 1:21:45 | |
Across all demographic groups, | 1:21:45 | 1:21:47 | |
an increasing fraction of people support equal rights for animals. | 1:21:47 | 1:21:50 | |
-Wow. -They say if we can do it for corporations, | 1:21:50 | 1:21:52 | |
then there's no reason why, essentially, | 1:21:52 | 1:21:54 | |
-a living being couldn't be considered a person. -Oh, really? | 1:21:54 | 1:21:57 | |
Oh, my God! When we weren't looking, we moved into the mainstream! | 1:21:57 | 1:22:01 | |
-Holy smokes! -THEY LAUGH | 1:22:01 | 1:22:04 | |
'We are on the cusp of a tide. | 1:22:13 | 1:22:16 | |
'People are really interested in what we have to say | 1:22:16 | 1:22:19 | |
'and I think we've had a huge success already, | 1:22:19 | 1:22:22 | |
'in kind of elevating the idea | 1:22:22 | 1:22:25 | |
'that you can bring a court case like this | 1:22:25 | 1:22:27 | |
'and do it in a really serious way. | 1:22:27 | 1:22:28 | |
'It's not being treated as something strange or a weird, | 1:22:28 | 1:22:32 | |
'it's being treated as a regular court case.' | 1:22:32 | 1:22:34 | |
And the Nonhuman Rights Project | 1:22:37 | 1:22:38 | |
has begun to work with legal groups around the world - | 1:22:38 | 1:22:41 | |
in Australia, in England, in France, in Argentina - | 1:22:41 | 1:22:44 | |
trying to get them to do similar things in their countries, | 1:22:44 | 1:22:49 | |
because these same tides of liberty, freedom and equality | 1:22:49 | 1:22:52 | |
are rolling through those countries, | 1:22:52 | 1:22:54 | |
just like they're rolling through ours | 1:22:54 | 1:22:56 | |
and they have been for centuries. | 1:22:56 | 1:22:57 | |
A female orang-utan | 1:22:57 | 1:22:58 | |
incarcerated in an Argentinian zoo for more than 20 years | 1:22:58 | 1:23:03 | |
has been granted some legal rights enjoyed by humans. | 1:23:03 | 1:23:06 | |
The case rested on whether the court decided | 1:23:06 | 1:23:08 | |
the orang-utan was a person or a thing. | 1:23:08 | 1:23:12 | |
This isn't a static issue. | 1:23:12 | 1:23:14 | |
'We view our lawsuits as really a dialogue between us and the judges | 1:23:14 | 1:23:19 | |
'and we think that there is going to be an evolution of that dialogue.' | 1:23:19 | 1:23:25 | |
In fact, there already has been. | 1:23:25 | 1:23:27 | |
Winston Churchill gave a speech in 1942, | 1:24:07 | 1:24:11 | |
telling the English people it's not the end | 1:24:11 | 1:24:14 | |
and it's not even the beginning of the end, | 1:24:14 | 1:24:16 | |
but it is the end of the beginning. | 1:24:16 | 1:24:18 | |
And that's what I tell people our suits are about - | 1:24:21 | 1:24:24 | |
the end of the beginning. | 1:24:24 | 1:24:26 | |
CAGE DOOR CREAKS | 1:24:44 | 1:24:47 | |
HUBBUB OF VOICES AND FAIRGROUND MUSIC | 1:24:47 | 1:24:51 | |
# I see my life come shining | 1:25:15 | 1:25:18 | |
# From the west down to the east | 1:25:21 | 1:25:25 | |
# Any day now, any day now | 1:25:28 | 1:25:35 | |
# I shall be released. # | 1:25:35 | 1:25:38 |