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This film contains some strong language. | 0:00:10 | 0:00:25 | |
(Dr Lemmon) A chimpanzee infant left with his mother is a thing, a lump. | 0:01:21 | 0:01:25 | |
Taken away, he acquires | 0:01:25 | 0:01:27 | |
human psychological test performances | 0:01:27 | 0:01:30 | |
which are well-nigh unbelievable. | 0:01:30 | 0:01:32 | |
(Stephanie) Nim was born at the primate centre in Oklahoma | 0:01:42 | 0:01:46 | |
and I went out there to get him. | 0:01:46 | 0:01:48 | |
I had never been near that many chimpanzees. | 0:01:50 | 0:01:54 | |
It was frightening, intimidating, | 0:01:54 | 0:01:56 | |
and I knew Dr Lemmon and his wife were watching me | 0:01:57 | 0:02:00 | |
to see what kind of a mother would I be. | 0:02:00 | 0:02:02 | |
Carolyn, Nim's mother, was sitting right there holding Nim, | 0:02:06 | 0:02:10 | |
and she knew what was going to happen better than I did. | 0:02:12 | 0:02:14 | |
She had had six of her previous babies removed, apparently, in the same way. | 0:02:15 | 0:02:21 | |
DOOR OPENING | 0:02:27 | 0:02:28 | |
When the time came to take Nim from his mother, | 0:02:28 | 0:02:33 | |
she instantly took on this drama, | 0:02:33 | 0:02:39 | |
this feeling of something about to happen. | 0:02:39 | 0:02:41 | |
CHIMPANZEE SCREECHING | 0:02:43 | 0:02:45 | |
And Dr Lemmon shot her with a tranquilising gun | 0:02:45 | 0:02:49 | |
CHIMPANZEE SCREECHING | 0:02:50 | 0:02:51 | |
And then said, | 0:02:52 | 0:02:54 | |
"Quick, we have to get him before she falls over and falls on him." | 0:02:54 | 0:02:59 | |
She was trying to protect him and cradle him. | 0:03:00 | 0:03:03 | |
So, he raced in and got Nim | 0:03:04 | 0:03:07 | |
and handed Nim to me | 0:03:08 | 0:03:11 | |
and said, "Go back." You know, go back in the other space. | 0:03:12 | 0:03:16 | |
He was very dense. | 0:03:26 | 0:03:29 | |
Unlike a human baby that has fat, | 0:03:30 | 0:03:34 | |
he was dense and hard. | 0:03:35 | 0:03:37 | |
He didn't struggle. He didn't try to get away. | 0:03:38 | 0:03:40 | |
He just screamed. | 0:03:40 | 0:03:42 | |
As much as he may be screaming and protesting, he's also clinging. | 0:03:43 | 0:03:47 | |
He was attaching for dear life. | 0:03:48 | 0:03:51 | |
(Herb) Wouldn't it be exciting | 0:04:14 | 0:04:16 | |
to communicate with a chimp | 0:04:16 | 0:04:19 | |
and find out what it was thinking? | 0:04:19 | 0:04:21 | |
If they could be taught to articulate | 0:04:23 | 0:04:26 | |
what they were thinking about, this would be an incredible expansion | 0:04:26 | 0:04:31 | |
of human communication, and possibly give us some insight | 0:04:31 | 0:04:35 | |
into how language, in fact, did evolve. | 0:04:35 | 0:04:38 | |
And that's essentially why I started Project Nim. | 0:04:39 | 0:04:43 | |
PHONE RINGING | 0:04:44 | 0:04:45 | |
(Stephanie) I don't know what was in his mind, but he just called. | 0:04:46 | 0:04:48 | |
He was asking me to bring an infant chimpanzee into my home, | 0:04:50 | 0:04:54 | |
raise this infant as if he were a child, | 0:04:56 | 0:04:59 | |
and see if he acquired language | 0:04:59 | 0:05:02 | |
as a function of being part of a family. | 0:05:02 | 0:05:05 | |
(Herb) Stephanie was a former student of mine. | 0:05:07 | 0:05:09 | |
She had a large family of her own children and her husband's children, | 0:05:10 | 0:05:15 | |
was exceedingly empathic and warm. | 0:05:15 | 0:05:18 | |
A chimp could not have a better mother. | 0:05:18 | 0:05:20 | |
(Stephanie) I know nothing about chimpanzees, | 0:05:23 | 0:05:25 | |
and I never actually sat down to study them | 0:05:25 | 0:05:29 | |
as one could have. As I should have, perhaps. | 0:05:31 | 0:05:33 | |
But my appetite and my drive to have that intimate a relationship | 0:05:33 | 0:05:37 | |
with an animal was... Nothing would have stopped that. | 0:05:37 | 0:05:41 | |
The fact that we could share language with an animal | 0:05:42 | 0:05:46 | |
seemed like a very radical possibility at that time. | 0:05:46 | 0:05:50 | |
(Herb) It had been known for some time | 0:05:51 | 0:05:53 | |
that chimps aren't able to make the sounds of human language. | 0:05:53 | 0:05:56 | |
- Do this, Viki. (BLOWS RASPBERRY) - (BLOWS RASPBERRY) | 0:05:56 | 0:05:59 | |
So why not teach them sign language? | 0:05:59 | 0:06:02 | |
The real breakthrough would be | 0:06:04 | 0:06:05 | |
if, like human children, a chimpanzee | 0:06:06 | 0:06:08 | |
could create grammatical sentences. | 0:06:08 | 0:06:11 | |
So, without much preparation and without really asking permission | 0:06:13 | 0:06:18 | |
of my children, my husband, I said, "Fine, I can do it." | 0:06:18 | 0:06:21 | |
"I even have the funds to do it with. We don't need to worry about money. " | 0:06:21 | 0:06:26 | |
And so it was launched. The experiment was launched. | 0:06:26 | 0:06:30 | |
(Herb) When Nim came to New York, he was barely two weeks old. | 0:06:32 | 0:06:34 | |
The idea was that he would be treated, in every way, like a human infant. | 0:06:35 | 0:06:39 | |
(Stephanie) I had recently moved to a brownstone on the Upper West Side | 0:06:43 | 0:06:47 | |
with my three children | 0:06:47 | 0:06:49 | |
and with my husband, who had four children, Wer Lafarge. | 0:06:50 | 0:06:52 | |
Wer was a poet and a writer. | 0:06:54 | 0:06:58 | |
He redefined himself, became what, at that time, was called a rich hippie. | 0:06:59 | 0:07:03 | |
A new husband, new family, new house, | 0:07:09 | 0:07:13 | |
and I brought Nim into that rather turbulent situation. | 0:07:13 | 0:07:18 | |
(Jenny) It just happened. There was no family discussion about, | 0:07:22 | 0:07:26 | |
"Should we? Shouldn't we?" | 0:07:26 | 0:07:28 | |
It was just, "Oh, we're having a chimp." | 0:07:28 | 0:07:30 | |
We're going to teach it sign language. | 0:07:30 | 0:07:33 | |
And then the reality of it is sort of hitting you that it's really... | 0:07:34 | 0:07:37 | |
You know, it's alive, it's not a doll, it's not a toy, | 0:07:37 | 0:07:40 | |
it's not a human, it's a chimp and it's an amazing, sweet little | 0:07:41 | 0:07:46 | |
newborn baby, needy creature, so... | 0:07:46 | 0:07:50 | |
I think I fell in love instantly. | 0:07:52 | 0:07:55 | |
(Stephanie) Nim didn't like Wer. | 0:07:57 | 0:07:59 | |
And Wer didn't like him. | 0:08:00 | 0:08:04 | |
Almost instantly I saw how complicated this was going to be. | 0:08:05 | 0:08:09 | |
(Jenny) I think Wer went along with it. | 0:08:10 | 0:08:12 | |
It was clearly Stephanie sort of saying, "Let's have a chimp." | 0:08:13 | 0:08:16 | |
It was the '70s! LAUGHS | 0:08:18 | 0:08:20 | |
(Stephanie) I breast-fed him for a couple of months. | 0:08:22 | 0:08:25 | |
It seemed completely natural. | 0:08:25 | 0:08:27 | |
Everything was about treating him like a human being. | 0:08:29 | 0:08:32 | |
By the time I had Nim, of course, I felt very comfortable with babies. | 0:08:35 | 0:08:39 | |
I wasn't prepared at all for the wild animal in him | 0:08:40 | 0:08:43 | |
and the drive. | 0:08:44 | 0:08:46 | |
By the time he was three months old, I think, | 0:08:51 | 0:08:54 | |
and starting to be ambulatory, | 0:08:55 | 0:08:57 | |
he was just right there, | 0:08:57 | 0:09:00 | |
nothing passive, nothing passive, ever. | 0:09:00 | 0:09:04 | |
I think he figured that he could just get in between Wer and Stephanie | 0:09:09 | 0:09:13 | |
on some level. | 0:09:14 | 0:09:15 | |
And Wer put his arm around her, and Nim just, you know, | 0:09:20 | 0:09:24 | |
half asleep, having a bottle, | 0:09:25 | 0:09:28 | |
turned and bit Wer on the arm quite hard. | 0:09:28 | 0:09:31 | |
He didn't want Wer in the picture. | 0:09:33 | 0:09:35 | |
He wanted Stephanie all for himself. | 0:09:36 | 0:09:38 | |
(Stephanie) Wer definitely felt excluded. | 0:09:40 | 0:09:42 | |
Nim had just become part of my being. | 0:09:43 | 0:09:46 | |
That was incompatible with the role that I played as wife. | 0:09:47 | 0:09:51 | |
PHONE RINGING | 0:09:53 | 0:09:55 | |
(Jenny) "Herb's coming, Herb's coming, Herb's coming. " | 0:09:59 | 0:10:02 | |
"Herb's coming" was a big deal. | 0:10:02 | 0:10:04 | |
(Herb) I would just go over and visit , just to see what his state was | 0:10:06 | 0:10:10 | |
and how he was getting along. | 0:10:10 | 0:10:12 | |
(Stephanie) Herb was infinitely exciting. | 0:10:13 | 0:10:16 | |
I admired his intellect and his goals and his arrogance, all those things. | 0:10:16 | 0:10:22 | |
There was something that didn't sit right with me about him. | 0:10:25 | 0:10:30 | |
(Stephanie) The people that I am the closest to, throughout my life, | 0:10:34 | 0:10:38 | |
are people that I have had some period of sexual contact with. | 0:10:38 | 0:10:42 | |
I don't think that the previous sexual relationship | 0:10:44 | 0:10:48 | |
between Herb and myself | 0:10:48 | 0:10:50 | |
made a difference to the project at all, | 0:10:50 | 0:10:52 | |
other than it was part of the glue | 0:10:54 | 0:10:57 | |
that allowed it to happen. | 0:10:58 | 0:10:59 | |
Herb didn't come very much. | 0:11:03 | 0:11:05 | |
He wasn't part of the caretaking package at all. | 0:11:06 | 0:11:09 | |
Young newborn chimps | 0:11:11 | 0:11:13 | |
are always raised by their mothers, not by their fathers. | 0:11:13 | 0:11:16 | |
And I didn't see any way of trying to change... | 0:11:17 | 0:11:20 | |
Or any point in trying to change that. | 0:11:20 | 0:11:22 | |
For better or worse, I never regarded him as a child. | 0:11:26 | 0:11:29 | |
I regarded him | 0:11:29 | 0:11:31 | |
as an intelligent, personable centre of a scientific project. | 0:11:32 | 0:11:35 | |
I had an implicit faith that Nim would learn signs. | 0:11:38 | 0:11:42 | |
We had to wait and see. | 0:11:43 | 0:11:45 | |
(Stephanie) How do they start teaching the child to sign? | 0:11:48 | 0:11:51 | |
Does the child just watch and... Whatever. I don't know. | 0:11:51 | 0:11:55 | |
It was a problem. We were trying to teach this chimp sign language | 0:11:55 | 0:11:57 | |
and nobody in the house really was fluent in sign language. | 0:11:57 | 0:12:00 | |
We would mould his hand into the sign for "drink", which is this, | 0:12:00 | 0:12:03 | |
and then give him the bottle to drink. | 0:12:04 | 0:12:07 | |
It just happened. | 0:12:17 | 0:12:18 | |
(Stephanie) It was just amazing. | 0:12:18 | 0:12:21 | |
And I thought, "Piece of cake." | 0:12:22 | 0:12:24 | |
I was absolutely delighted. | 0:12:25 | 0:12:27 | |
He picked up quite a few signs after that rather quickly. | 0:12:28 | 0:12:31 | |
"Eat", "me", "Nim" | 0:12:34 | 0:12:36 | |
were part of his first signs. | 0:12:36 | 0:12:39 | |
"Hug" was another one. | 0:12:39 | 0:12:40 | |
And it was as if, then, "OK, we're off. | 0:12:44 | 0:12:46 | |
"Now we just got to build up the vocabulary. " | 0:12:46 | 0:12:49 | |
As much as we were moulding him, | 0:12:50 | 0:12:52 | |
we were moulding these damn hands and all this stuff, | 0:12:52 | 0:12:55 | |
he was starting to mould us. | 0:12:55 | 0:12:57 | |
He knew every dynamic that was in the room, instantly. | 0:12:58 | 0:13:01 | |
(Jenny) He knew when you were upset. | 0:13:03 | 0:13:05 | |
Whatever had happened in, you know, a 13-, 14-year-old's life. | 0:13:05 | 0:13:08 | |
And he would come over and he would just come and sit with you and hug you, | 0:13:09 | 0:13:14 | |
and then just kiss the tears away. | 0:13:14 | 0:13:16 | |
You know, it was amazing. Just unconditional. | 0:13:16 | 0:13:20 | |
(Stephanie) He was my life line, he was my buddy, | 0:13:23 | 0:13:26 | |
and he was bringing something out in me, | 0:13:26 | 0:13:29 | |
a freedom to defy expectation and authority. | 0:13:30 | 0:13:34 | |
His greatest focus of defiance was against Wer. | 0:13:35 | 0:13:39 | |
(Jenny) He would kind of pull books off the shelves, | 0:13:41 | 0:13:44 | |
and Wer liked his books a certain way. | 0:13:44 | 0:13:46 | |
When he saw Wer coming, he would really do it. | 0:13:46 | 0:13:50 | |
It was very focused. It was intentional. | 0:13:52 | 0:13:53 | |
"Fuck you, I'm touching these." | 0:13:53 | 0:13:55 | |
It was a problem. | 0:13:59 | 0:14:00 | |
(Stephanie) Wer was so impotent. | 0:14:02 | 0:14:04 | |
I mean, what could he do? He'd chase him around. "Drop that! Blah, blah." | 0:14:05 | 0:14:09 | |
I mean, he won every time. | 0:14:09 | 0:14:11 | |
Nim saw Herb as his next adult male challenge. | 0:14:19 | 0:14:24 | |
I mean, that is the life that he's hard-wired for. | 0:14:25 | 0:14:27 | |
To take on increasingly powerful male figures until he's the top. | 0:14:28 | 0:14:32 | |
When Herb would come over, expecting to step in | 0:14:33 | 0:14:36 | |
and have control of Nim, and he couldn't and didn't, | 0:14:36 | 0:14:39 | |
we loved it. We loved it. | 0:14:40 | 0:14:42 | |
(Herb) I cornered Nim | 0:14:46 | 0:14:47 | |
and just went to pull him out of some | 0:14:48 | 0:14:51 | |
hiding place, and he bit me. | 0:14:52 | 0:14:54 | |
(Stephanie) Frankly, everybody in the family got a kick out of Nim | 0:14:56 | 0:14:59 | |
doing just what Herb hated. | 0:14:59 | 0:15:01 | |
No-one ever put him in his place, | 0:15:03 | 0:15:04 | |
and he just grew more and more and more powerful, | 0:15:04 | 0:15:07 | |
and that was exciting to me. | 0:15:08 | 0:15:10 | |
We didn't have to try to control him in any way. In fact, | 0:15:15 | 0:15:17 | |
we enjoyed just letting him hang out and see how it went. | 0:15:17 | 0:15:21 | |
(Herb) Stephanie being the kind of mother she was, | 0:15:29 | 0:15:31 | |
was not very concerned about discipline. | 0:15:31 | 0:15:33 | |
It was sort of the hippie mentality, | 0:15:34 | 0:15:37 | |
and I think what I would tell her would go in one ear and out the other. | 0:15:38 | 0:15:41 | |
(Stephanie) Herb would have wanted a schedule and a structure | 0:15:46 | 0:15:50 | |
and charted progress and notes and all of that. | 0:15:50 | 0:15:54 | |
I didn't supply that, I couldn't create that, | 0:15:57 | 0:16:00 | |
and I don't think Nim would have thrived in that. | 0:16:00 | 0:16:03 | |
(Laura) I was taking classes at Columbia University | 0:16:16 | 0:16:18 | |
and there was a small sign that said, | 0:16:19 | 0:16:22 | |
"Research assistant needed, course credit granted. " | 0:16:22 | 0:16:25 | |
A man opened the door | 0:16:30 | 0:16:31 | |
and he was completely breathless. | 0:16:32 | 0:16:34 | |
Also, he's one of those men who was balding on the top. | 0:16:35 | 0:16:39 | |
So he had his hair pasted down, | 0:16:39 | 0:16:41 | |
but he was so upset and dishevelled | 0:16:41 | 0:16:44 | |
that his hair was standing straight up on one side. | 0:16:44 | 0:16:47 | |
He explained it was a language project | 0:16:50 | 0:16:52 | |
and I immediately understood the scientific relevance. | 0:16:53 | 0:16:57 | |
Nim was going to test the nature-versus-nurture hypotheses | 0:16:59 | 0:17:02 | |
that were prevailing at the time. | 0:17:02 | 0:17:04 | |
It really was at the cusp of science. | 0:17:06 | 0:17:08 | |
(Herb) You know, some things are just | 0:17:10 | 0:17:12 | |
immediately obvious about someone from the beginning. | 0:17:12 | 0:17:14 | |
You know what kind of person you have. | 0:17:15 | 0:17:17 | |
I think she was 18, if I'm not mistaken. | 0:17:19 | 0:17:21 | |
(Laura) At the time, Nim was in Stephanie Lafarge's house, | 0:17:23 | 0:17:27 | |
and my first job was to basically baby-sit. | 0:17:27 | 0:17:30 | |
To go to the house and ostensibly teach him sign language. | 0:17:30 | 0:17:34 | |
She came out of nowhere as a | 0:17:35 | 0:17:37 | |
cute little thing from Ramapo. | 0:17:39 | 0:17:40 | |
(Laura) When I got there, I was actually really surprised. | 0:17:42 | 0:17:45 | |
There was utter chaos. | 0:17:46 | 0:17:49 | |
There was nothing. This was a scientific project. | 0:17:49 | 0:17:53 | |
There were no journals. There were no log books. | 0:17:55 | 0:17:58 | |
They didn't know who was covering Nim, | 0:17:58 | 0:18:01 | |
when they were going to be covering Nim, | 0:18:01 | 0:18:02 | |
who would be teaching Nim, when they would be teaching Nim. | 0:18:02 | 0:18:05 | |
They didn't know what they were going to teach Nim. | 0:18:05 | 0:18:08 | |
(Stephanie) She quickly felt her power. | 0:18:08 | 0:18:11 | |
It was completely visible. | 0:18:11 | 0:18:13 | |
Everybody had to adapt to it. | 0:18:13 | 0:18:17 | |
She wanted that mother role. | 0:18:17 | 0:18:19 | |
This animal | 0:18:20 | 0:18:22 | |
climbed the walls all day. | 0:18:23 | 0:18:25 | |
He ripped apart Stephanie's house all day. | 0:18:25 | 0:18:29 | |
The kinds of things she was exposing Nim to were atypical. | 0:18:31 | 0:18:36 | |
(Stephanie) He loved driving fast in cars. He loved motorcycles. | 0:18:39 | 0:18:44 | |
He loved, you know, virtually anything thrilling. | 0:18:44 | 0:18:47 | |
He liked alcohol. You'd give him a sip and he'd want more. | 0:18:50 | 0:18:54 | |
We gave him puffs on a joint. | 0:18:56 | 0:18:58 | |
We didn't have to treat him like a child. | 0:19:06 | 0:19:08 | |
We could expose him to the sensations that we enjoyed. | 0:19:08 | 0:19:12 | |
I had an instinctive sense that something was very amiss here, | 0:19:14 | 0:19:19 | |
that this is not the way you teach a child language | 0:19:20 | 0:19:24 | |
or you interact with a child | 0:19:25 | 0:19:27 | |
or you teach anything language. | 0:19:27 | 0:19:30 | |
(Stephanie) When Nim began to | 0:19:32 | 0:19:36 | |
discover my body, my nakedness, he'd be curious. | 0:19:36 | 0:19:39 | |
Like a child, he was uninterested and then one day he was interested. | 0:19:39 | 0:19:43 | |
I never felt sexually engaged with him. | 0:19:49 | 0:19:53 | |
There was a sensuality, but Nim was, you know, a pre-teen. | 0:19:53 | 0:19:58 | |
(Laura) Stephanie was a graduate student in psychoanalysis. | 0:20:00 | 0:20:04 | |
Her questions had to do with the oedipal complex. | 0:20:04 | 0:20:08 | |
And she was interested in Nim's masturbation | 0:20:08 | 0:20:11 | |
and how he masturbated. I couldn't believe it. | 0:20:11 | 0:20:13 | |
I realised that I could not do what I call good science | 0:20:16 | 0:20:21 | |
in Stephanie's home. It just wasn't conducive to that. | 0:20:21 | 0:20:23 | |
So I set up a classroom at Columbia. | 0:20:25 | 0:20:29 | |
(Stephanie) He's gonna take Nim to school | 0:20:31 | 0:20:33 | |
and I realise I'm starting to lose my role | 0:20:33 | 0:20:36 | |
as the person who knows the best what he needs. | 0:20:36 | 0:20:39 | |
(Laura) We had to get him in a context that was | 0:20:41 | 0:20:43 | |
neutral, calming, soothing. | 0:20:43 | 0:20:47 | |
I just mapped out a teaching plan for Nim | 0:20:50 | 0:20:54 | |
and I did it. | 0:20:54 | 0:20:55 | |
(Herb) She was so enthusiastic about this | 0:20:57 | 0:20:59 | |
that I made her, in a sense, | 0:20:59 | 0:21:03 | |
the director of education, the curriculum. | 0:21:03 | 0:21:06 | |
(Laura) I was feeling good about myself. | 0:21:08 | 0:21:10 | |
Also, I was succeeding with Nim. | 0:21:10 | 0:21:11 | |
I could see I was succeeding with Nim. | 0:21:12 | 0:21:13 | |
I can see it, I can see that no-one could hold a candle to me. | 0:21:13 | 0:21:18 | |
The only thing that mattered to him... It became more and more tense. | 0:21:19 | 0:21:23 | |
Words, words, words, words, words, word order, word order, word order. | 0:21:24 | 0:21:28 | |
He couldn't see anything else. | 0:21:28 | 0:21:30 | |
Herb started seeing the signs grow on that little graph. | 0:21:30 | 0:21:34 | |
Every day, every other day, every three days. | 0:21:34 | 0:21:38 | |
Laura taught him another sign. Laura taught him another sign. | 0:21:38 | 0:21:41 | |
And I just went hell for leather. | 0:21:43 | 0:21:45 | |
(Herb) Nim's signing was just almost exponentially increasing. | 0:21:48 | 0:21:53 | |
I was very happy. | 0:21:53 | 0:21:54 | |
Words are a fucking nightmare | 0:21:56 | 0:21:59 | |
when it comes to closeness, often. | 0:21:59 | 0:22:03 | |
And here I was, married to a poet, working for a linguist... | 0:22:04 | 0:22:09 | |
You know, words became the enemy. | 0:22:10 | 0:22:13 | |
She started restricting the times we can come in the house. | 0:22:14 | 0:22:19 | |
She started throwing us out. | 0:22:20 | 0:22:23 | |
She, apparently, was | 0:22:23 | 0:22:25 | |
encouraged to believe that she was now the mother. | 0:22:26 | 0:22:29 | |
(Laura) Stephanie began to threaten to take Nim away from Herb. | 0:22:31 | 0:22:34 | |
And Herb started panicking. | 0:22:38 | 0:22:40 | |
I definitely initiated the move out of Stephanie's house. | 0:22:42 | 0:22:46 | |
I think she was initially quite resistant to it, | 0:22:46 | 0:22:49 | |
especially since she didn't know exactly how Nim was going to end up. | 0:22:49 | 0:22:53 | |
God had spoken. That's what had happened. | 0:22:54 | 0:22:56 | |
That's what was going on. And we didn't have control. | 0:22:56 | 0:22:59 | |
So... my separation from him was just as abrupt, in a way, | 0:23:07 | 0:23:12 | |
at that moment, as his was from Carolyn's. | 0:23:12 | 0:23:16 | |
I was ostensibly conscious, but I was no less... | 0:23:18 | 0:23:23 | |
I was as unaware | 0:23:23 | 0:23:26 | |
and, you know, un-in charge and helpless as she was. | 0:23:26 | 0:23:31 | |
It... | 0:23:33 | 0:23:35 | |
It was heart-breaking, | 0:23:39 | 0:23:41 | |
saying goodbye. | 0:23:46 | 0:23:48 | |
(Stephanie) Part of me did not want him to learn language. | 0:23:52 | 0:23:56 | |
He was less with language | 0:23:59 | 0:24:01 | |
than he was as his unique self. | 0:24:02 | 0:24:04 | |
(Herb) At that time, a very lucky thing happened. | 0:24:23 | 0:24:26 | |
I was aware that there was an estate that Columbia owned in Riverdale, | 0:24:28 | 0:24:33 | |
a very large estate, that used to be the home of the President. | 0:24:33 | 0:24:38 | |
And I went to him with a proposition | 0:24:39 | 0:24:41 | |
that if he allowed me to raise the chimp there, I'd pay for the heat. | 0:24:41 | 0:24:45 | |
And he said "Sure." | 0:24:46 | 0:24:48 | |
(Laura) This was amazing! This was a fairy tale. | 0:24:58 | 0:25:02 | |
(Herb) It was a 28-acre estate | 0:25:04 | 0:25:08 | |
surrounded by lovely gardens. | 0:25:08 | 0:25:10 | |
And that allowed me to put up Nim's teachers | 0:25:11 | 0:25:15 | |
in magnificent surroundings and not pay any rent. | 0:25:15 | 0:25:18 | |
Life was good. | 0:25:20 | 0:25:21 | |
(Laura) Nim got out of the car, | 0:25:23 | 0:25:25 | |
ran up to the front door, | 0:25:26 | 0:25:28 | |
rolled down the hill, and he was gone. | 0:25:28 | 0:25:31 | |
He was free. | 0:25:32 | 0:25:34 | |
So, there was no reaction at having taken him | 0:25:43 | 0:25:45 | |
out of Stephanie's house. | 0:25:45 | 0:25:47 | |
He was fine. And it was like he had been there his whole life. | 0:25:49 | 0:25:54 | |
(Herb) He certainly was a different chimpanzee in this mansion | 0:26:00 | 0:26:03 | |
than he was with Stephanie. | 0:26:03 | 0:26:05 | |
So, I sort of got into more, | 0:26:06 | 0:26:09 | |
you know, interacting with him. | 0:26:09 | 0:26:12 | |
(Laura) Herb's power as a professor, | 0:26:15 | 0:26:17 | |
his age, | 0:26:18 | 0:26:20 | |
completely impacted me. | 0:26:20 | 0:26:23 | |
He was my model. | 0:26:24 | 0:26:26 | |
(Herb) We really clicked together. | 0:26:27 | 0:26:29 | |
(Laura) I wanted so much to be a part of his world. | 0:26:32 | 0:26:37 | |
I wanted to be in that world of academia. | 0:26:38 | 0:26:41 | |
(Herb) I had strong personal feelings about Laura, | 0:26:43 | 0:26:46 | |
but I don't think that in any way got in the way of our science. | 0:26:49 | 0:26:53 | |
(Laura) Some of the daily bodily requirements that Nim had | 0:27:03 | 0:27:07 | |
had to be addressed, and very quickly. | 0:27:08 | 0:27:10 | |
I eventually couldn't handle the diapers any more. | 0:27:13 | 0:27:17 | |
He was getting bigger and he was eating more of our food, | 0:27:17 | 0:27:20 | |
so pragmatically I had to get him off those diapers. | 0:27:20 | 0:27:23 | |
I watched his facial expressions when he needed the potty | 0:27:26 | 0:27:29 | |
and I began to see it and grab him and bring him to the potty. | 0:27:29 | 0:27:33 | |
(Herb) He did actually use the toilet correctly, | 0:27:35 | 0:27:38 | |
but it was certainly not as reliable as what you'd see in a child. | 0:27:38 | 0:27:43 | |
(Laura) The idea was that I would live with Nim | 0:27:48 | 0:27:51 | |
and I would train him for a certain period of time in the house, | 0:27:51 | 0:27:56 | |
but then I would bring him in every day to Columbia University. | 0:27:56 | 0:28:00 | |
(Bill) This was an experiment to teach or see | 0:28:03 | 0:28:06 | |
if a chimpanzee can learn sign language. | 0:28:07 | 0:28:09 | |
I just thought it was really intellectually interesting. | 0:28:10 | 0:28:13 | |
Interesting to understand how much chimpanzees are like us | 0:28:14 | 0:28:18 | |
and how much they're not. | 0:28:18 | 0:28:20 | |
At that time he was terribly cute | 0:28:22 | 0:28:24 | |
and getting little photos in New York magazine. | 0:28:24 | 0:28:27 | |
There was a daily lesson plan, if you will. | 0:28:28 | 0:28:30 | |
We were supposed to teach these particular signs to Nim | 0:28:30 | 0:28:33 | |
and they were supposed to also teach him everyday activities. | 0:28:34 | 0:28:38 | |
Dress yourself, undress yourself, this sort of thing. | 0:28:39 | 0:28:43 | |
(Herb) Like children after they learn a few words, | 0:28:44 | 0:28:46 | |
Nim has spontaneously put signs together. | 0:28:46 | 0:28:49 | |
In many instances we allow Nim | 0:28:50 | 0:28:52 | |
to use his own signs, that he almost invents, | 0:28:52 | 0:28:55 | |
so long as they're consistent. | 0:28:55 | 0:28:57 | |
For example, this is the sign for "play" that he invented. | 0:28:57 | 0:29:01 | |
He's learning signs rapidly. They're going up, up, up, up, up. | 0:29:02 | 0:29:05 | |
(Herb) The project was literally humming. | 0:29:06 | 0:29:08 | |
You know, everything was going very smoothly. | 0:29:08 | 0:29:11 | |
I have a chimpanzee who was making history. | 0:29:11 | 0:29:14 | |
We did get a grant somewhere in that time. | 0:29:15 | 0:29:18 | |
(Laura) The project had begun to enter the media, | 0:29:18 | 0:29:21 | |
so there was all this excitement and hype about the project. | 0:29:21 | 0:29:25 | |
We were thrilled. | 0:29:25 | 0:29:26 | |
We've probably all seen performing chimpanzees | 0:29:31 | 0:29:33 | |
on television or in circuses, | 0:29:33 | 0:29:35 | |
but Nim is no ordinary chimp. | 0:29:35 | 0:29:37 | |
Since he was a few weeks old, Nim has lived in a close association | 0:29:38 | 0:29:41 | |
with a group of scientists under the direction of | 0:29:42 | 0:29:44 | |
Dr Herbert Terrace of Columbia University. | 0:29:44 | 0:29:47 | |
They're performing a unique experiment | 0:29:47 | 0:29:49 | |
to try to determine whether apes can be taught to communicate with humans | 0:29:49 | 0:29:53 | |
using language. | 0:29:53 | 0:29:55 | |
How big will he be when he's full-grown? | 0:29:56 | 0:29:57 | |
Oh, he's going to be big. | 0:29:58 | 0:29:59 | |
He's going to be about 5 feet tall, perhaps 150 pounds, | 0:29:59 | 0:30:03 | |
and supposedly five to six times the strength of a man. | 0:30:03 | 0:30:06 | |
How are you going to be able to handle him then? | 0:30:06 | 0:30:08 | |
(Bill) He had grown. | 0:30:10 | 0:30:12 | |
I guess he was probably something like that. | 0:30:12 | 0:30:14 | |
If you had to hold him, you really had to hold him. | 0:30:16 | 0:30:20 | |
And he'd gone from being this meek little huggable toy | 0:30:20 | 0:30:23 | |
to quite a robust young chimpanzee. | 0:30:24 | 0:30:28 | |
His eye teeth were never taken out, | 0:30:32 | 0:30:34 | |
which means that he's got fangs, essentially, sitting here. | 0:30:34 | 0:30:38 | |
Extremely strong jaw. | 0:30:38 | 0:30:39 | |
If you didn't assert dominance in some fashion, | 0:30:39 | 0:30:43 | |
you were going to be in trouble eventually. | 0:30:43 | 0:30:45 | |
(Herb) He could size somebody up in two seconds. | 0:30:48 | 0:30:50 | |
Whether they were confident or secretly unconfident. | 0:30:51 | 0:30:55 | |
(Laura) If I stood up too quickly, | 0:30:56 | 0:30:58 | |
if I accidentally showed him my back too quickly, | 0:30:58 | 0:31:02 | |
if I had food and I didn't think to share it with him, | 0:31:02 | 0:31:06 | |
he'd cross that threshold and go into attack. | 0:31:06 | 0:31:08 | |
(Bill) You could tell that he was getting an attitude. | 0:31:11 | 0:31:14 | |
The hair would go up on his arms | 0:31:14 | 0:31:16 | |
and he'd sort of get this look in his face. | 0:31:16 | 0:31:19 | |
HOOTS ANGRILY | 0:31:20 | 0:31:21 | |
When he would bark, | 0:31:21 | 0:31:23 | |
I'd feel it inside, | 0:31:23 | 0:31:25 | |
the danger. | 0:31:25 | 0:31:27 | |
He had to lunge. | 0:31:29 | 0:31:31 | |
The contact, the rip, the tear and the release. | 0:31:31 | 0:31:35 | |
And he had to draw blood. | 0:31:35 | 0:31:37 | |
(Herb) She did not tell me that in an alarming manner. | 0:31:40 | 0:31:44 | |
She was just reporting it. | 0:31:44 | 0:31:45 | |
Maybe I was just too | 0:31:46 | 0:31:48 | |
looking ahead with blinkers and not wanting to hear that. | 0:31:49 | 0:31:51 | |
This is 37 stitches. | 0:31:51 | 0:31:53 | |
I had four here, | 0:31:54 | 0:31:56 | |
nine here. This one | 0:31:56 | 0:31:59 | |
sent me into the hospital. | 0:31:59 | 0:32:00 | |
This one actually was the most dangerous one because he hit a tendon. | 0:32:00 | 0:32:03 | |
(Joyce) It's a lot of work | 0:32:17 | 0:32:18 | |
to take care of an animal that's not your species | 0:32:19 | 0:32:21 | |
who has that kind of energy level. | 0:32:21 | 0:32:23 | |
I probably didn't know the difference between chimpanzees and monkeys. | 0:32:23 | 0:32:26 | |
So, I was as blind and as ignorant | 0:32:26 | 0:32:30 | |
and as naive as probably they came. | 0:32:30 | 0:32:32 | |
I was on a quick learning curve. | 0:32:32 | 0:32:33 | |
I have high energy and enthusiasm for a goal. | 0:32:36 | 0:32:39 | |
And he was my goal, apparently. | 0:32:40 | 0:32:41 | |
(Laura) Joyce was a great teacher. | 0:32:42 | 0:32:44 | |
She signed, she was completely dedicated and motivated. | 0:32:44 | 0:32:49 | |
She wanted to do this. This was fantastic! | 0:32:49 | 0:32:53 | |
(Joyce) He bit me really hard, and I bit him on the ear right then and there, | 0:32:55 | 0:32:59 | |
and I said, "That's over. You will never bite me again." And he never did. | 0:32:59 | 0:33:03 | |
He did like a lot of human body contact. | 0:33:06 | 0:33:09 | |
Typically, when we would leave the property, | 0:33:11 | 0:33:13 | |
he would be really attached to you. | 0:33:13 | 0:33:15 | |
The world would scare him, so he would always come close. | 0:33:17 | 0:33:20 | |
Bill and I hung tight with Nim. | 0:33:27 | 0:33:30 | |
(Bill) We sort of hit it off on a lot of our different thinking. | 0:33:31 | 0:33:34 | |
She and I got together as a couple. LAUGHS | 0:33:35 | 0:33:39 | |
(Joyce) It helped that we liked each other. | 0:33:39 | 0:33:42 | |
And I think that that helped Nim's life | 0:33:42 | 0:33:44 | |
because we enjoyed each other's company, | 0:33:44 | 0:33:47 | |
so we would do things together | 0:33:47 | 0:33:49 | |
and we would hang out as kind of a unit. | 0:33:49 | 0:33:51 | |
Oh, he loved the cats. | 0:33:57 | 0:33:59 | |
(Bill) He was really, really tender with the cat, and he'd hold it, | 0:34:00 | 0:34:03 | |
and he sort of liked the feel, the touch. Something about it. | 0:34:03 | 0:34:06 | |
He would hold her and be like... | 0:34:09 | 0:34:11 | |
And you could see him, like, shaking | 0:34:11 | 0:34:12 | |
because he'd be so excited that he had her. | 0:34:12 | 0:34:14 | |
(LAUGHS) He actually kind of pushed her down on the ground | 0:34:15 | 0:34:18 | |
and then curled around her, | 0:34:18 | 0:34:20 | |
and just laid there, like, "I'm in heaven." | 0:34:20 | 0:34:23 | |
(Bill) I would say that it was fairly clear | 0:34:39 | 0:34:41 | |
that there was something more going on than the project, | 0:34:41 | 0:34:43 | |
at least from his side. | 0:34:44 | 0:34:46 | |
And I think we all felt it and we kind of had... | 0:34:48 | 0:34:50 | |
I don't want to say resentment, but it was like, | 0:34:51 | 0:34:53 | |
"Oh, jeez, would he stop this Laura thing?" | 0:34:53 | 0:34:56 | |
If someone showed me some attention, | 0:34:57 | 0:35:00 | |
I thought it meant that they cared for me. | 0:35:00 | 0:35:03 | |
He had power. | 0:35:05 | 0:35:07 | |
I'm sure that, you know, unconsciously I took advantage of that. | 0:35:10 | 0:35:14 | |
Somebody admires you, | 0:35:14 | 0:35:18 | |
um, why not... | 0:35:18 | 0:35:19 | |
So, yeah, we very briefly got involved | 0:35:22 | 0:35:24 | |
and he very, very briefly and abruptly got out of it. | 0:35:25 | 0:35:29 | |
The entanglement completely affected my decision to leave. | 0:35:32 | 0:35:36 | |
It's the humans I wanted to leave, not the chimp. | 0:35:37 | 0:35:40 | |
Herb didn't want it to happen. | 0:35:42 | 0:35:44 | |
He went into a very enthusiastic mode | 0:35:44 | 0:35:48 | |
of trying to convince me not to go. | 0:35:48 | 0:35:50 | |
I wasn't panicked. | 0:35:50 | 0:35:52 | |
I wasn't panicked that the project was just going to | 0:35:52 | 0:35:54 | |
grind to a halt because Laura left. | 0:35:54 | 0:35:56 | |
As I recall, Joyce and Bill pretty much took care of that. | 0:35:57 | 0:36:01 | |
So... I didn't lose any crucial aspect of the project. | 0:36:01 | 0:36:05 | |
I started to go to get the boxes to leave, | 0:36:12 | 0:36:16 | |
and Nim pulled loose from the person's hand, | 0:36:17 | 0:36:20 | |
he climbs to the second floor of the house. | 0:36:21 | 0:36:24 | |
Then he must have lunged 25 feet. | 0:36:24 | 0:36:28 | |
He landed on me. | 0:36:30 | 0:36:32 | |
He took my head and he started pounding it into the pavement. | 0:36:34 | 0:36:40 | |
It took four males to get him off me. | 0:36:42 | 0:36:45 | |
He wasn't my child. | 0:36:55 | 0:36:57 | |
He wasn't my baby. | 0:36:57 | 0:36:58 | |
You can't give human nurturing to an animal that could kill you. | 0:36:59 | 0:37:04 | |
(Herb) One of the easy parts of the project | 0:37:16 | 0:37:19 | |
was to advertise for teachers. | 0:37:19 | 0:37:22 | |
It was like, "Uh, this is nice." | 0:37:23 | 0:37:25 | |
I didn't set out to have women on the project predominantly, | 0:37:26 | 0:37:30 | |
but it certainly turned out that way. | 0:37:30 | 0:37:32 | |
And if that's the way it turned out, that's the way it turned out. | 0:37:33 | 0:37:36 | |
(Renee) I was a trained interpreter for the deaf. | 0:37:36 | 0:37:39 | |
When I set my mind to something, | 0:37:39 | 0:37:40 | |
I get what I want. | 0:37:40 | 0:37:42 | |
I kept saying, "I want to live here." | 0:37:43 | 0:37:45 | |
"When I am moving in? When do I get to move in?" | 0:37:45 | 0:37:47 | |
And I would annoy Herb. | 0:37:47 | 0:37:49 | |
And finally he let me move in. | 0:37:49 | 0:37:51 | |
(Bill) Probably, as time went on, | 0:37:52 | 0:37:54 | |
it may have become more difficult for women to work with him. | 0:37:55 | 0:37:58 | |
He was going to take advantage of them | 0:38:00 | 0:38:02 | |
and he was big enough and strong enough that he could. | 0:38:02 | 0:38:04 | |
(Renee) I mean, it hurt! His bites hurt. | 0:38:06 | 0:38:08 | |
When he bit your hand, he got the nerve. | 0:38:08 | 0:38:11 | |
And you'd get a running shock up your arm. | 0:38:11 | 0:38:13 | |
We had epic battles, but we made up. | 0:38:17 | 0:38:19 | |
He'd make that face and sign "sorry". | 0:38:21 | 0:38:23 | |
So, "Well, if I sign this, she'll forgive me. " | 0:38:25 | 0:38:27 | |
I had a relationship with a chimpanzee, | 0:38:29 | 0:38:31 | |
and I had conversations with another species. | 0:38:31 | 0:38:33 | |
(Joyce) It's not just him signing that was important to me. | 0:38:37 | 0:38:39 | |
It was what he was thinking and experiencing, | 0:38:39 | 0:38:42 | |
because we would talk when we would hang out. | 0:38:42 | 0:38:45 | |
We would talk about the things we would see, | 0:38:45 | 0:38:46 | |
the things we would hear. | 0:38:46 | 0:38:48 | |
As far as I'm concerned, | 0:38:50 | 0:38:51 | |
our classroom was the house and the yard | 0:38:51 | 0:38:53 | |
and the field trips that we would take. | 0:38:53 | 0:38:56 | |
(Herb) Science is a very objective enterprise. | 0:39:04 | 0:39:08 | |
You can't have personal anecdotes of how I worked with Nim | 0:39:08 | 0:39:11 | |
up at Delafield as opposed to the classroom. | 0:39:11 | 0:39:13 | |
That's just of no interest to a scientist. | 0:39:14 | 0:39:17 | |
Joyce did not see anything special about the classroom. | 0:39:18 | 0:39:21 | |
Hated it. Hated it, hated it. He hated it. We hated it. | 0:39:22 | 0:39:25 | |
That's not surprising, because she didn't get the results in the classroom | 0:39:25 | 0:39:29 | |
that I was hoping for. | 0:39:30 | 0:39:31 | |
- Do you know what time it is? - (MAN) Yeah. | 0:39:32 | 0:39:35 | |
(Bill) Going into a dungeon of a classroom, which it really was. | 0:39:35 | 0:39:37 | |
I mean, the thing was 15 feet square, | 0:39:37 | 0:39:39 | |
including the observation booth and everything else. | 0:39:39 | 0:39:42 | |
No windows, no place really to have any activity. | 0:39:43 | 0:39:45 | |
Trying to get Nim's attention | 0:39:45 | 0:39:47 | |
was a bit of a struggle, | 0:39:47 | 0:39:48 | |
and he would rather have been doing something else. | 0:39:48 | 0:39:51 | |
Pay attention to me. | 0:39:55 | 0:39:56 | |
Shh! | 0:40:00 | 0:40:01 | |
So, this is the sign for "dirty", | 0:40:03 | 0:40:05 | |
so we used it for "toilet" for him because it's a contact sign. | 0:40:05 | 0:40:09 | |
He would jump through the signs that I asked him to jump through | 0:40:12 | 0:40:15 | |
and then he would have had enough. | 0:40:15 | 0:40:16 | |
And he would say, "I need to go to the bathroom." | 0:40:16 | 0:40:19 | |
And that's when I knew, | 0:40:26 | 0:40:27 | |
you little bugger. | 0:40:28 | 0:40:29 | |
You used that sign | 0:40:30 | 0:40:32 | |
because you knew it would make us leave there | 0:40:32 | 0:40:34 | |
and get us out of there. | 0:40:34 | 0:40:36 | |
(Bill) He was growing smarter and smarter. | 0:40:41 | 0:40:43 | |
And smarter in the sense of recognising situations | 0:40:44 | 0:40:47 | |
that he could take advantage of, of when he could get what he wanted. | 0:40:47 | 0:40:51 | |
(Renee) He was starting to discover himself. | 0:41:01 | 0:41:04 | |
There was a big rock in the front yard and he used to like to hump it. | 0:41:05 | 0:41:08 | |
And we'd say, "You're gonna hurt yourself. That's a rock." | 0:41:09 | 0:41:12 | |
Like, look at himself and go, "What's that?" | 0:41:12 | 0:41:14 | |
As this whole thing with the physicality became an issue, | 0:41:14 | 0:41:18 | |
we were much more cautious, I think, | 0:41:18 | 0:41:20 | |
about letting the cats around him, | 0:41:20 | 0:41:22 | |
and letting him play with the cats. | 0:41:22 | 0:41:25 | |
(Joyce) He would even try to, | 0:41:28 | 0:41:29 | |
not engage directly in sexual relationships with the animals, | 0:41:29 | 0:41:32 | |
but definitely to bring them to him and to his penis area. | 0:41:32 | 0:41:37 | |
And I just said, "No, that's not what they're there for. " | 0:41:42 | 0:41:45 | |
(Herb) We realised, I think all of us, that it was becoming | 0:41:52 | 0:41:55 | |
increasingly difficult to pursue the experiment. | 0:41:55 | 0:41:59 | |
(Renee) Nim was scratching hard, he was biting harder, | 0:42:00 | 0:42:03 | |
biting more often, biting more people. | 0:42:03 | 0:42:05 | |
(Bill) We had mentioned the growing concern that we had | 0:42:07 | 0:42:10 | |
about how to deal with Nim. | 0:42:10 | 0:42:12 | |
NIM SCREECHES | 0:42:12 | 0:42:14 | |
Dr Terrace was pretty much an absentee landlord. | 0:42:15 | 0:42:18 | |
(Joyce) Herb was never alone with Nim, | 0:42:18 | 0:42:19 | |
and Herb never had to spend any kind of time with him. | 0:42:20 | 0:42:22 | |
Once in a while, you know, photo shoots. | 0:42:24 | 0:42:26 | |
For him to either take photos or for him to have photos taken of him. | 0:42:26 | 0:42:29 | |
(Herb) Yes, there were occasional bites. | 0:42:32 | 0:42:35 | |
I imagine they increased in frequency just because Nim was getting older. | 0:42:36 | 0:42:39 | |
In that sense, he was becoming more chimp-like. | 0:42:41 | 0:42:43 | |
But it didn't seem to be a cause for alarm at that point. | 0:42:45 | 0:42:48 | |
(Renee) It was the end of July, it was July 28th, | 0:42:50 | 0:42:53 | |
and Bill had him, and we did the body-to-body transfer. | 0:42:54 | 0:42:58 | |
I mean, you're holding Nim | 0:43:01 | 0:43:03 | |
and the other person comes up | 0:43:03 | 0:43:05 | |
and you just kind of hand the chimp to the other person. | 0:43:05 | 0:43:08 | |
And I said, "Come on." And I got the tether. | 0:43:08 | 0:43:11 | |
You know, you've got the loop first | 0:43:12 | 0:43:14 | |
and I then tied it to my belt. | 0:43:14 | 0:43:16 | |
"Come here." And he came over and he put his arms around me. | 0:43:17 | 0:43:21 | |
He just crunched my face. | 0:43:23 | 0:43:24 | |
It just happened. | 0:43:26 | 0:43:28 | |
And I grabbed Nim and just dragged him into the house. | 0:43:30 | 0:43:33 | |
And he was like, (exclaims) "Sorry, sorry, sorry!" | 0:43:33 | 0:43:35 | |
"No, no, no." And I passed that armoire with that mirror | 0:43:35 | 0:43:38 | |
and saw all this blood. He had bit through my cheek | 0:43:38 | 0:43:41 | |
almost to the inside of my mouth. | 0:43:42 | 0:43:44 | |
It was folded over, so you could see inside my face. | 0:43:44 | 0:43:47 | |
I don't recall if she went to the emergency room, | 0:43:52 | 0:43:55 | |
but I think something like that happened. | 0:43:55 | 0:43:56 | |
It was just bad. | 0:43:59 | 0:44:03 | |
I was probably worried that she would sue me, | 0:44:04 | 0:44:06 | |
or this would become public, | 0:44:08 | 0:44:10 | |
this would become public knowledge about how | 0:44:11 | 0:44:13 | |
life-threatening the project might be. | 0:44:15 | 0:44:17 | |
They couldn't sew it | 0:44:17 | 0:44:19 | |
because of the infection and the risk of infection, | 0:44:19 | 0:44:21 | |
so I had an open gaping wound on my face for three months. | 0:44:21 | 0:44:25 | |
And when I got out the hospital, I said, | 0:44:35 | 0:44:37 | |
"You know what? I want to see Nim." | 0:44:37 | 0:44:39 | |
He went... (GRUNTS) | 0:44:39 | 0:44:41 | |
And he went to reach for my face again. I went, "Whoa!" | 0:44:41 | 0:44:43 | |
"That's it. I don't need closure now. I'm out of here." | 0:44:43 | 0:44:46 | |
I was scared. | 0:44:47 | 0:44:49 | |
I'm tenacious and I didn't want to let go. | 0:44:50 | 0:44:53 | |
Sort of like breaking up with a bad boyfriend. | 0:44:54 | 0:44:56 | |
(Herb) I was sorry that it came to that, | 0:45:01 | 0:45:04 | |
but you just don't know how Nim is going to change | 0:45:04 | 0:45:08 | |
and you just can't count on | 0:45:08 | 0:45:10 | |
having outstanding teachers all the time. | 0:45:10 | 0:45:13 | |
I felt I was spreading myself too thinly | 0:45:22 | 0:45:25 | |
and experiencing too much stress | 0:45:25 | 0:45:27 | |
and not enough, you know, good results. | 0:45:28 | 0:45:31 | |
Nobody keeps a chimp for more than five years, | 0:45:35 | 0:45:38 | |
because at five years, they don't know their own strength | 0:45:38 | 0:45:41 | |
and they can do a lot of damage to people. | 0:45:42 | 0:45:44 | |
He called us together and dropped the bomb and said, "It's over." | 0:45:50 | 0:45:53 | |
I was one very angry young woman. | 0:45:57 | 0:45:59 | |
You don't say, "We're not doing this any more." | 0:46:05 | 0:46:08 | |
And because Herb had that card to play, | 0:46:08 | 0:46:12 | |
he played it, cos he was in the power seat. | 0:46:12 | 0:46:14 | |
(Herb) I think I said, | 0:46:18 | 0:46:20 | |
"There's no point of this going on scientifically. " | 0:46:21 | 0:46:24 | |
I felt that Nim had progressed a lot, | 0:46:27 | 0:46:29 | |
and we hadn't had the chance to really analyse our data. | 0:46:29 | 0:46:32 | |
I just knew that we had reams of data. | 0:46:32 | 0:46:35 | |
(Bill) This whole mass of data that needed to be organised, | 0:46:39 | 0:46:42 | |
and that was going to be a long and tedious process. | 0:46:42 | 0:46:46 | |
(Herb) The fundamental question was, | 0:46:47 | 0:46:48 | |
"Can a chimpanzee create a sentence?" | 0:46:49 | 0:46:50 | |
I don't think I had any definitive conclusions to that. | 0:46:52 | 0:46:55 | |
We had to wait and see. | 0:46:56 | 0:46:57 | |
(Bill) It's kind of like you're almost there | 0:47:01 | 0:47:03 | |
and you feel like there's going to be a conclusion, | 0:47:03 | 0:47:06 | |
and it's like, "OK," | 0:47:06 | 0:47:09 | |
"it's over." | 0:47:09 | 0:47:11 | |
(Herb) I thought that the surroundings in which he was born | 0:47:14 | 0:47:19 | |
would provide the most psychological support for Nim. | 0:47:19 | 0:47:23 | |
I felt the basic needs would be taken care of. | 0:47:25 | 0:47:28 | |
PHONE RINGS | 0:47:29 | 0:47:31 | |
So, once I got Bill Lemmon to agree to take him back, | 0:47:31 | 0:47:36 | |
that was it. | 0:47:36 | 0:47:38 | |
(Joyce) I hope he'll be OK. | 0:47:50 | 0:47:51 | |
That's why I want to go with him. | 0:47:52 | 0:47:54 | |
I hope that I'll be able to introduce him to his new life | 0:47:54 | 0:47:57 | |
but still have an old part of his life with him, namely me. | 0:47:58 | 0:48:01 | |
And he can get used to it and I can fade out and he'll be fine. | 0:48:01 | 0:48:04 | |
It won't just be an abrupt break between old and new. | 0:48:05 | 0:48:09 | |
(Bill) And we get Nim up early one morning, | 0:48:30 | 0:48:32 | |
he gets a shot and he's out. | 0:48:34 | 0:48:35 | |
(Herb) I chartered a plane and hired a pilot. | 0:48:43 | 0:48:47 | |
Nim was given tranquillisers | 0:48:57 | 0:48:59 | |
to reduce the possibility of his getting out of hand. | 0:48:59 | 0:49:02 | |
If he was tranquillised, he'd be easier to control | 0:49:06 | 0:49:10 | |
and not do any damage to the plane, which could be quite dangerous. | 0:49:10 | 0:49:13 | |
(Joyce) So that's how we get him to Oklahoma. | 0:49:15 | 0:49:17 | |
It was just a nasty thing to do. | 0:49:19 | 0:49:22 | |
Very deceitful, I think. | 0:49:23 | 0:49:25 | |
(Herb) The question is, what was going to happen in Oklahoma? | 0:49:29 | 0:49:32 | |
And I didn't have any sense of that, so, that was my concern. | 0:49:33 | 0:49:37 | |
(JOYCE LAUGHING) "Holy shit" was my first thought. | 0:50:06 | 0:50:10 | |
And I think his reaction was "holy shit" too. | 0:50:12 | 0:50:16 | |
Like he knew we were... He knew it was bad. | 0:50:17 | 0:50:19 | |
He'd never seen a chimp before, | 0:50:22 | 0:50:25 | |
and he was holding on tight. | 0:50:25 | 0:50:27 | |
SCREECHING | 0:50:30 | 0:50:32 | |
You look around, you see cages | 0:50:32 | 0:50:34 | |
and you hear the sounds of a lot of chimpanzees. | 0:50:34 | 0:50:37 | |
Would I have envisioned this, when I started on this project, | 0:50:38 | 0:50:41 | |
that he ever would end up there? No. | 0:50:41 | 0:50:43 | |
It turned out to be | 0:50:48 | 0:50:50 | |
a surprisingly more primitive facility than I remembered. | 0:50:50 | 0:50:53 | |
(Bob) Because our cages were cages. | 0:50:56 | 0:50:58 | |
They weren't just a room with a locked door, | 0:50:58 | 0:51:00 | |
they were cages. | 0:51:00 | 0:51:01 | |
I mean, it looked like a prison. | 0:51:01 | 0:51:03 | |
A really stark, ugly, dark, dank prison. | 0:51:03 | 0:51:08 | |
(Alyce) They had a chain around their neck with a lock. | 0:51:11 | 0:51:13 | |
Should you get into a bad fight, | 0:51:16 | 0:51:19 | |
you could grab the chain and keep them off of you. | 0:51:19 | 0:51:21 | |
It was like prison behaviour. | 0:51:21 | 0:51:23 | |
We had to put up an electric fence around the island | 0:51:23 | 0:51:26 | |
because we had had several murders | 0:51:26 | 0:51:28 | |
and two suicides. | 0:51:28 | 0:51:30 | |
They'd just push them out into the water, | 0:51:31 | 0:51:33 | |
and chimps can't swim. | 0:51:33 | 0:51:34 | |
(Joyce) Dr Lemmon ran the place. | 0:51:34 | 0:51:37 | |
I had an immediate horrible reaction. | 0:51:37 | 0:51:40 | |
He walked around with a cattle prod. | 0:51:40 | 0:51:42 | |
I remember trying to push Nim away, | 0:51:45 | 0:51:48 | |
because I knew what he was gonna do. | 0:51:48 | 0:51:50 | |
And Nim is screaming and holding on to me very tightly, | 0:51:51 | 0:51:54 | |
and the only reason he let go | 0:51:55 | 0:51:58 | |
was because he got zapped with the electric prod. | 0:51:58 | 0:52:01 | |
Come here a minute. Mac, come here. Mac, come here. | 0:52:07 | 0:52:09 | |
Come here, come here. | 0:52:10 | 0:52:11 | |
(Bill) The reasoning behind the whole Mac-Nim interaction | 0:52:12 | 0:52:15 | |
was that Mac was not dangerous. | 0:52:15 | 0:52:18 | |
(Alyce) He was small, so he was | 0:52:21 | 0:52:24 | |
not an aggressive, dominant chimp, | 0:52:24 | 0:52:27 | |
so he was the perfect one for Nim to start with. | 0:52:27 | 0:52:30 | |
(Bill) Hey, Mac, uh-uh! Buh! | 0:53:09 | 0:53:12 | |
(Interviewer) How did you expect Nim to react | 0:53:21 | 0:53:23 | |
to his first meeting with another chimp? | 0:53:23 | 0:53:25 | |
(Herb) I think what happened was that Nim was very apprehensive about Mac | 0:53:26 | 0:53:30 | |
and he took his time | 0:53:30 | 0:53:31 | |
and then when he was ready, he and Mac got it off. | 0:53:32 | 0:53:35 | |
I feel very good about this, | 0:53:37 | 0:53:39 | |
because I can leave now knowing that Nim has a friend | 0:53:39 | 0:53:42 | |
and he's going to worry less about his human companions | 0:53:42 | 0:53:46 | |
and have at least one other chimp to turn to. | 0:53:46 | 0:53:49 | |
(Bill) It was time to leave, | 0:53:57 | 0:53:59 | |
and that's when I took Nim and put him in the cage. | 0:53:59 | 0:54:02 | |
Sure, I didn't want Joyce doing it, | 0:54:06 | 0:54:09 | |
so I just said, "Well, I better go do it." | 0:54:09 | 0:54:10 | |
I didn't want Terrace doing it. | 0:54:10 | 0:54:12 | |
So, I just decided I was gonna do it. | 0:54:13 | 0:54:16 | |
CHIMPANZEE GRUNTING | 0:54:18 | 0:54:19 | |
CAGE RATTLING | 0:54:19 | 0:54:21 | |
You know, we coaxed him down there and then, | 0:54:25 | 0:54:27 | |
because he trusted us... | 0:54:28 | 0:54:30 | |
I just led him in there and took the lead | 0:54:30 | 0:54:32 | |
and tied it around the far end of the cage | 0:54:33 | 0:54:35 | |
and said goodbye and walked out and shut the door. | 0:54:35 | 0:54:38 | |
CHIMPANZEES HOOTING | 0:54:42 | 0:54:44 | |
CAGES RATTLING | 0:54:47 | 0:54:50 | |
He was sort of hooting and trying to come after me, | 0:54:51 | 0:54:54 | |
cos he didn't really know where he was. | 0:54:55 | 0:54:57 | |
But I just walked away. | 0:54:57 | 0:55:00 | |
And then when he wasn't looking, he ran out, | 0:55:02 | 0:55:04 | |
out the door. | 0:55:04 | 0:55:06 | |
I did feel badly. | 0:55:22 | 0:55:23 | |
I felt in a certain basic sense that was not the right thing to do | 0:55:26 | 0:55:30 | |
to somebody, you know, who had been part of my life for so many years, | 0:55:30 | 0:55:34 | |
and that I was definitely doing | 0:55:34 | 0:55:36 | |
something that he somehow would feel was unjust or wrong. | 0:55:36 | 0:55:40 | |
He had a little doll or something that I think I left. | 0:55:47 | 0:55:50 | |
(Joyce) I strongly believe that we made a commitment to him | 0:55:57 | 0:56:01 | |
and we failed. | 0:56:01 | 0:56:02 | |
We did a huge disservice to that soul, | 0:56:04 | 0:56:08 | |
and shame on us. | 0:56:09 | 0:56:11 | |
CHIMPANZEES HOOTING | 0:56:14 | 0:56:16 | |
(Bob) Assumed, I guess wrongly, | 0:56:20 | 0:56:22 | |
that Nim was going to come back and he was going to be celebrated | 0:56:23 | 0:56:25 | |
in the sense that he was going to be the great signing chimp. | 0:56:26 | 0:56:28 | |
No, exactly the opposite. | 0:56:30 | 0:56:31 | |
Exactly the opposite. | 0:56:31 | 0:56:33 | |
Nim, in the cage, | 0:56:35 | 0:56:37 | |
no special treatment, no yogurt, no granola, | 0:56:37 | 0:56:41 | |
no... None of that. | 0:56:41 | 0:56:42 | |
It was pretty traumatic for the chimp. | 0:56:43 | 0:56:45 | |
They curl up | 0:56:51 | 0:56:52 | |
and lay down. | 0:56:53 | 0:56:54 | |
They lose interest in food. They just... | 0:56:55 | 0:56:58 | |
It was a bad start with Nim and I. | 0:57:01 | 0:57:03 | |
The chimp is very upset. | 0:57:03 | 0:57:05 | |
And he just looks at me and he jumps and lunges at me | 0:57:05 | 0:57:09 | |
and bites through an artery right in here. | 0:57:09 | 0:57:12 | |
I did use a small shock stick. | 0:57:13 | 0:57:15 | |
CHIMPANZEE SCREECHING | 0:57:15 | 0:57:17 | |
He had to grow up | 0:57:18 | 0:57:19 | |
and not be a single, spoiled child any more. | 0:57:19 | 0:57:23 | |
So, you got to socialise, | 0:57:25 | 0:57:27 | |
work on his "chimpanzee" | 0:57:27 | 0:57:29 | |
and manners. | 0:57:30 | 0:57:31 | |
Everybody needs a job. | 0:57:39 | 0:57:41 | |
Meaning and purpose. | 0:57:42 | 0:57:44 | |
I had them out, they would help me in the big kitchen | 0:57:48 | 0:57:51 | |
where we prepped our food and did stuff, they'd sweep... | 0:57:51 | 0:57:55 | |
Nim was a compulsive hand washer, he'd do dishes. | 0:57:55 | 0:57:58 | |
Vanessa liked to dust, | 0:57:59 | 0:58:02 | |
little Mac liked to clean cages and wear my boots. | 0:58:02 | 0:58:07 | |
This was a special group of chimps. | 0:58:11 | 0:58:13 | |
They weren't ordinary chimps. | 0:58:13 | 0:58:15 | |
You know, they had the capacity for higher consciousness. | 0:58:15 | 0:58:18 | |
SCREECHING | 0:58:31 | 0:58:33 | |
Terrace came back a year later. | 0:58:40 | 0:58:42 | |
(Bob) Herb arrived with | 0:58:44 | 0:58:47 | |
still photographers and cameras and that sort of thing. | 0:58:47 | 0:58:50 | |
It was a shoot and it was arranged as such. | 0:58:51 | 0:58:53 | |
(Herb) There was no question | 0:58:56 | 0:58:58 | |
that he was very happy that he could see me again. | 0:58:58 | 0:59:00 | |
There was no anger that, "Why did you leave me here?" | 0:59:01 | 0:59:04 | |
It was just, "Hey, that's great. I want to see him again." | 0:59:04 | 0:59:08 | |
(Bob) You could see that he was like, "Holy shit, I'm going back to New York!" | 0:59:10 | 0:59:13 | |
It was like that. | 0:59:13 | 0:59:14 | |
Like he was going to be rescued. | 0:59:15 | 0:59:16 | |
It was kind of sad. | 0:59:19 | 0:59:21 | |
(Herb) I played with him, we got into games of signing. | 0:59:24 | 0:59:27 | |
I remember I got him to sign "hug". | 0:59:28 | 0:59:30 | |
I got him to sign "Herb". | 0:59:30 | 0:59:31 | |
In fact, I could get almost any sign out of him. | 0:59:32 | 0:59:34 | |
I didn't have to go through a drill. | 0:59:34 | 0:59:36 | |
So, it was a very entertaining, comfortable afternoon. | 0:59:37 | 0:59:40 | |
No bad behaviour of any kind. | 0:59:41 | 0:59:43 | |
(Alyce) At the end of the day, looks at his watch, | 0:59:44 | 0:59:46 | |
gives me Nim back, | 0:59:46 | 0:59:48 | |
and flies off. | 0:59:48 | 0:59:49 | |
And is gone. | 0:59:51 | 0:59:53 | |
Next morning he barely ate. | 0:59:53 | 0:59:56 | |
He just started to crater. | 0:59:56 | 0:59:59 | |
(Bob) Herb never came back. | 1:00:02 | 1:00:04 | |
I thought, "I'm going to become Nim's friend, | 1:00:07 | 1:00:09 | |
"and I'm going to hang with Nim and we'll see what happens. " | 1:00:09 | 1:00:12 | |
I mean, there wasn't much I could do for him in terms of the cage, | 1:00:13 | 1:00:16 | |
but get him out. | 1:00:16 | 1:00:18 | |
Oh, you saw that, huh? | 1:00:19 | 1:00:22 | |
See you later, Nim! | 1:00:23 | 1:00:25 | |
We just liked each other right off, | 1:00:30 | 1:00:31 | |
and sometimes it's like that. | 1:00:31 | 1:00:33 | |
Chimps aren't humans. | 1:00:49 | 1:00:50 | |
You have to kind of understand chimps | 1:00:52 | 1:00:54 | |
to be able to understand how to work with them and be with them. | 1:00:54 | 1:00:57 | |
I took him out on walks. I didn't bring food. | 1:01:03 | 1:01:05 | |
I didn't do the kind of things | 1:01:05 | 1:01:08 | |
that would interrupt the relationship | 1:01:08 | 1:01:10 | |
or the building of the relationship. | 1:01:11 | 1:01:13 | |
He grows on you quick. | 1:01:17 | 1:01:20 | |
He was so charming. | 1:01:20 | 1:01:22 | |
It didn't occur to me that animals had that kind of personality like ours. | 1:01:22 | 1:01:27 | |
(Alyce) And you had to be true of heart. | 1:01:29 | 1:01:31 | |
You had to be true of heart. | 1:01:32 | 1:01:34 | |
If you had dark places in you, they'd know it and they wouldn't like you. | 1:01:34 | 1:01:38 | |
Good morning. With us this morning is Dr Herbert Terrace, | 1:01:56 | 1:01:58 | |
a professor of psychology at Columbia University. | 1:01:58 | 1:02:02 | |
For several years, Dr Terrace was in charge of an experiment | 1:02:02 | 1:02:04 | |
where he and several other human beings | 1:02:05 | 1:02:06 | |
tried to teach a chimpanzee named Nim | 1:02:07 | 1:02:09 | |
the sign language of the deaf. | 1:02:09 | 1:02:11 | |
But now in a book just published, which is called Nim, | 1:02:11 | 1:02:14 | |
you're saying, Dr Terrace, that these experiments don't prove | 1:02:14 | 1:02:18 | |
as much as you had originally thought they did? | 1:02:18 | 1:02:20 | |
(Herb) I changed my mind about the data. | 1:02:21 | 1:02:23 | |
I suddenly saw what the key to this was. | 1:02:29 | 1:02:33 | |
Nim was a brilliant beggar. | 1:02:34 | 1:02:36 | |
He learned how to beg | 1:02:37 | 1:02:40 | |
and he could work his teachers | 1:02:40 | 1:02:43 | |
and always get what he wanted | 1:02:43 | 1:02:45 | |
by moving his hands in different ways. | 1:02:45 | 1:02:47 | |
And most of the time he moved his hands in the ways that the teachers suggested. | 1:02:47 | 1:02:51 | |
And the motive for signing | 1:02:52 | 1:02:54 | |
was not to say, | 1:02:55 | 1:02:57 | |
"What a nice cat you have over there," but, "I want it." | 1:02:57 | 1:03:00 | |
(interviewer) When the experiments were over, | 1:03:01 | 1:03:03 | |
you returned Nim to the primate colony where he was born. | 1:03:03 | 1:03:06 | |
A year after that you went back for a visit, and we came along with a camera. | 1:03:06 | 1:03:09 | |
You and he are talking in sign language here. | 1:03:11 | 1:03:13 | |
Here we have it in slow motion. What's Nim saying? | 1:03:14 | 1:03:16 | |
(Herb) He's saying, "Give Nim banana." | 1:03:17 | 1:03:20 | |
Why is it that you're saying that he can't speak like a human being? | 1:03:21 | 1:03:24 | |
Well, a string of signs is not necessarily a sentence. | 1:03:25 | 1:03:28 | |
You can learn a list of words by rote, | 1:03:30 | 1:03:33 | |
and that says nothing about your ability to use a grammar. | 1:03:33 | 1:03:36 | |
Aren't you very disappointed that you spent all this time and all this money? | 1:03:36 | 1:03:39 | |
Well, it would have been very electrifying news, | 1:03:40 | 1:03:42 | |
almost like communicating with a creature from outer space, | 1:03:42 | 1:03:44 | |
if I could show that another organism | 1:03:44 | 1:03:48 | |
could use language the way humans have. | 1:03:48 | 1:03:50 | |
- But it didn't work. - It didn't work. | 1:03:50 | 1:03:51 | |
Thank you very much, Dr Terrace. | 1:03:52 | 1:03:54 | |
(WOMAN) I hope somebody can still talk to Nim, in any event. | 1:03:54 | 1:03:56 | |
(Bob) I didn't care about the language argument after a while, | 1:04:12 | 1:04:14 | |
it didn't matter to me. | 1:04:14 | 1:04:16 | |
He might not have had sentences or grammar, | 1:04:18 | 1:04:20 | |
but there's no question that there was communication going on, | 1:04:20 | 1:04:23 | |
and I saw it clearly. | 1:04:23 | 1:04:25 | |
He talked about the trees, the berries that he found. | 1:04:32 | 1:04:35 | |
He liked to play. | 1:04:40 | 1:04:42 | |
Favourite sign, "play". | 1:04:42 | 1:04:44 | |
BOB LAUGHS | 1:04:50 | 1:04:52 | |
Holy shit, he doesn't know which one to grab. | 1:04:54 | 1:04:56 | |
(Bob) He knew what pot was, or hash, or whatever. | 1:04:59 | 1:05:02 | |
(CHUCKLES) And he wanted to smoke a joint. | 1:05:05 | 1:05:07 | |
Stone. | 1:05:11 | 1:05:12 | |
Smoke. | 1:05:14 | 1:05:15 | |
Now. | 1:05:15 | 1:05:17 | |
When we went out on walks with him, Nim was one of us, | 1:05:17 | 1:05:20 | |
and if we smoked a joint, he smoked it with us. | 1:05:20 | 1:05:22 | |
In the circle, we handed it to him. | 1:05:22 | 1:05:24 | |
Chimps are like us, they're hedonistic, | 1:05:27 | 1:05:29 | |
they like to do pleasurable things, they like to... | 1:05:29 | 1:05:31 | |
You know, they like to have fun, and hell, who doesn't? | 1:05:32 | 1:05:35 | |
(Alyce) And there was something in marijuana... | 1:05:41 | 1:05:43 | |
They weren't aggressive. | 1:05:46 | 1:05:47 | |
You talk less, you do different things, | 1:05:48 | 1:05:50 | |
you enjoy each other. | 1:05:51 | 1:05:53 | |
(Bob) Lily and Nim lived together in the pig barn. | 1:05:55 | 1:06:01 | |
(Alyce) Both of them didn't have many chimp friends, | 1:06:03 | 1:06:05 | |
and then they became friends. | 1:06:07 | 1:06:10 | |
They were seen copulating, | 1:06:15 | 1:06:17 | |
and we think Nim might have been the father of Lily's baby. | 1:06:18 | 1:06:21 | |
Had the best time in my life, I still say that. | 1:06:35 | 1:06:37 | |
I've never had such a good time. | 1:06:37 | 1:06:39 | |
Except maybe at a Grateful Dead show. Pretty close. | 1:06:39 | 1:06:42 | |
I don't even know which one I'd... | 1:06:42 | 1:06:44 | |
Actually, being with Nim... I'd rather be with Nim than Jerry, | 1:06:44 | 1:06:47 | |
and, for me, that's saying something. | 1:06:48 | 1:06:50 | |
(MAN) That's real. (Bob) Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a banana? | 1:06:54 | 1:06:57 | |
Wanna eat the shoe? | 1:06:58 | 1:07:00 | |
That's a shoe, this is a berry. | 1:07:02 | 1:07:04 | |
(Bob) And that's when Mahoney started showing up. | 1:07:16 | 1:07:19 | |
He was standing around, | 1:07:21 | 1:07:23 | |
looking at chimps and writing on his pad and whatever. | 1:07:23 | 1:07:26 | |
When someone... | 1:07:27 | 1:07:29 | |
When I found out who he was, | 1:07:29 | 1:07:30 | |
and I'm sure it didn't take long for me to figure it out, I was... | 1:07:30 | 1:07:34 | |
Obviously he was checking out the chimps for the lab. | 1:07:34 | 1:07:37 | |
LEMSIP is best known by its acronym, L-E-M-S-I-P, | 1:07:37 | 1:07:41 | |
which is Laboratory for Experimental Medicine and Surgery in Primates. | 1:07:41 | 1:07:46 | |
He represented the devil to me. | 1:07:46 | 1:07:50 | |
Most of the work that we did with the chimpanzees, for example, | 1:07:50 | 1:07:54 | |
was | 1:07:54 | 1:07:55 | |
testing various | 1:07:57 | 1:07:58 | |
candidate vaccines | 1:08:00 | 1:08:01 | |
for, like, hepatitis B, hepatitis C, HIV, AIDS. | 1:08:02 | 1:08:07 | |
I think it's very difficult | 1:08:07 | 1:08:09 | |
to fund the kinds of research | 1:08:09 | 1:08:13 | |
that I happen to be very much interested in. | 1:08:14 | 1:08:16 | |
It's been difficult to fund social research in general. | 1:08:16 | 1:08:19 | |
(James) We heard about Dr Lemmon's problems, which were financial. | 1:08:21 | 1:08:25 | |
It was finally arranged that, yes, | 1:08:27 | 1:08:29 | |
we would take a very large part of their colony. | 1:08:29 | 1:08:32 | |
I thought Lemmon was trying to scare the university. | 1:08:35 | 1:08:38 | |
I thought they would go, | 1:08:38 | 1:08:41 | |
"Oh, gosh, you can't sell them to a medical lab." | 1:08:41 | 1:08:43 | |
"We've got to do something." | 1:08:43 | 1:08:44 | |
I thought the community would rise itself up. | 1:08:44 | 1:08:46 | |
Bob and I tried so hard with public appeal | 1:08:46 | 1:08:50 | |
for something for the chimps, and there was no response. | 1:08:50 | 1:08:54 | |
And then, shortly after that, | 1:08:55 | 1:08:57 | |
the chimps were indeed sold. | 1:08:57 | 1:08:59 | |
(Interviewer) Of the chimps that are being sent off to the lab today, | 1:09:07 | 1:09:09 | |
how many of them were subjects of the signing research? | 1:09:09 | 1:09:12 | |
Only one | 1:09:12 | 1:09:14 | |
was restricted to signing research. This is Nim. | 1:09:15 | 1:09:19 | |
LORRY ENGINE RUNNING | 1:09:23 | 1:09:25 | |
(James) As a chimp, you've got no way of knowing what's happening to you. | 1:09:27 | 1:09:29 | |
You're just suddenly cut off from seeing everything outside. | 1:09:29 | 1:09:33 | |
Suddenly, after a day and a half of constant driving, | 1:09:35 | 1:09:39 | |
you get out the other end and you're in another sort of room. | 1:09:39 | 1:09:42 | |
(CHIMPANZEES HOOTING) | 1:09:50 | 1:09:52 | |
I wouldn't say they were jumping with joy | 1:10:00 | 1:10:03 | |
to find themselves in a new place. | 1:10:05 | 1:10:07 | |
Come on. Come here. Come on. One more time. One more time! | 1:10:16 | 1:10:20 | |
CHIMPANZEE SCREAMING | 1:10:21 | 1:10:23 | |
It's over. It's all right, it's over. | 1:10:25 | 1:10:27 | |
I took on the role of being the one who chose | 1:10:30 | 1:10:33 | |
which animals would go into which types of study. | 1:10:33 | 1:10:36 | |
And I hated it. | 1:10:38 | 1:10:40 | |
(James) Spike, Spike, come over here, Spike. | 1:10:40 | 1:10:42 | |
Spike, come on over here. Come on. | 1:10:43 | 1:10:45 | |
You want to go away with Spike? | 1:10:51 | 1:10:52 | |
These animals will be used on hepatitis vaccine safety tests. | 1:10:53 | 1:10:59 | |
It is a federal law that before | 1:10:59 | 1:11:02 | |
a new batch of vaccine can be released on the American market, | 1:11:02 | 1:11:06 | |
it must be tested in four chimpanzees. | 1:11:06 | 1:11:09 | |
There's no way, in all honesty... | 1:11:10 | 1:11:12 | |
There's no way you can carry out research on animals | 1:11:12 | 1:11:16 | |
and for it to be humane. | 1:11:16 | 1:11:18 | |
It can't be humane, | 1:11:18 | 1:11:20 | |
because you already put them in a cage. | 1:11:20 | 1:11:23 | |
That was already the first step, and from there on, it's downhill. | 1:11:23 | 1:11:27 | |
CHIMPANZEES SCREECHING | 1:11:27 | 1:11:30 | |
We realised that certain of the Oklahoma chimps | 1:11:34 | 1:11:37 | |
could use sign language and were trying | 1:11:37 | 1:11:40 | |
to sign with us. | 1:11:40 | 1:11:41 | |
What we did was, we wrote down on sheets of paper, | 1:11:41 | 1:11:45 | |
which we posted all over the place, | 1:11:45 | 1:11:47 | |
on doors and walls and everywhere we could find, | 1:11:47 | 1:11:50 | |
certain signs, | 1:11:50 | 1:11:53 | |
and it was hoped that, as time went by, | 1:11:53 | 1:11:56 | |
everyone would pick up at least a certain amount of sign language. | 1:11:56 | 1:12:00 | |
I didn't see | 1:12:06 | 1:12:08 | |
Nim as special, above anyone else in the group, | 1:12:09 | 1:12:13 | |
because they were all going through the same thing. | 1:12:13 | 1:12:17 | |
(Bob) I made a big, big stink about it in every way I could. | 1:12:47 | 1:12:51 | |
I called the press. We bitched as much as we could. | 1:12:51 | 1:12:56 | |
(Jim) The student Bob Ingersoll, | 1:13:06 | 1:13:08 | |
he used to hound me every chance he got, | 1:13:08 | 1:13:11 | |
and I would start to get really annoyed. | 1:13:11 | 1:13:13 | |
And then it dawned on me | 1:13:14 | 1:13:16 | |
that he was the only one who cared. | 1:13:16 | 1:13:19 | |
Nobody, nobody, | 1:13:19 | 1:13:22 | |
except the press, helped us. | 1:13:22 | 1:13:24 | |
(Interviewer) Is there anything that you would consider doing | 1:13:24 | 1:13:26 | |
to prevent what is going to happen to him? | 1:13:26 | 1:13:28 | |
Unfortunately, there's nothing I can do | 1:13:28 | 1:13:32 | |
because legally Nim is not mine. | 1:13:32 | 1:13:34 | |
Nim was loaned to me for the duration of my project. | 1:13:34 | 1:13:38 | |
That project ran out of funds... | 1:13:39 | 1:13:40 | |
PHONE RINGING | 1:13:40 | 1:13:42 | |
(Henry) Somebody at the Boston Globe | 1:13:46 | 1:13:48 | |
told me to read a front-page story on that day | 1:13:49 | 1:13:52 | |
and he said, "I think you'd be interested, | 1:13:52 | 1:13:54 | |
"and I know you take unusual cases." | 1:13:54 | 1:13:56 | |
As a human being, I thought it was | 1:13:59 | 1:14:01 | |
a kind of esoteric, unique form of animal cruelty, | 1:14:01 | 1:14:04 | |
all the worse for that. | 1:14:04 | 1:14:06 | |
And as a lawyer I thought it was just plain illegal. | 1:14:06 | 1:14:09 | |
If the facts are, as I'm being told, | 1:14:09 | 1:14:11 | |
that this young chimp was brought up from infancy | 1:14:11 | 1:14:15 | |
in a human family, you can't stick him | 1:14:15 | 1:14:17 | |
into a little cage in some horrible medical lab | 1:14:17 | 1:14:20 | |
and use him for medical experiments. | 1:14:20 | 1:14:22 | |
It's per se animal cruelty. | 1:14:22 | 1:14:24 | |
Early on, I decided this: | 1:14:25 | 1:14:27 | |
If this animal has been deliberately brought up from infanthood | 1:14:28 | 1:14:33 | |
to think of himself as human, | 1:14:34 | 1:14:36 | |
then, if I'm going to represent him, I have to treat him like a human client. | 1:14:36 | 1:14:40 | |
Give him his day in court. | 1:14:41 | 1:14:43 | |
(Bob) Henry and I, Mr Herrmann, were in communication pretty much every day. | 1:14:45 | 1:14:49 | |
He used a really cool strategy, actually. | 1:14:51 | 1:14:53 | |
He said, "Hey, this chimp can speak for himself." | 1:14:53 | 1:14:56 | |
"Let's bring him into court and let him talk." | 1:14:56 | 1:14:58 | |
What I had ready as a trial exhibit | 1:14:58 | 1:15:00 | |
was a steel cage | 1:15:01 | 1:15:02 | |
and a couple of strong guys with a pole ready to carry it into court. | 1:15:03 | 1:15:06 | |
And I was going to get Nim to go into a frenzy and signal "out, out, out". | 1:15:07 | 1:15:11 | |
And I believe the judge said | 1:15:11 | 1:15:13 | |
something to the effect that, "I'm not letting a fucking chimpanzee" | 1:15:13 | 1:15:16 | |
"come in here and make a mockery of my courtroom," | 1:15:16 | 1:15:19 | |
or something to that effect. | 1:15:19 | 1:15:21 | |
And that's when I said I'm going to bring, in effect, | 1:15:21 | 1:15:23 | |
a habeas corpus petition on behalf of the chimp. | 1:15:23 | 1:15:25 | |
Bring him to court. | 1:15:25 | 1:15:27 | |
Our opponents were pigheaded, but they weren't stupid. | 1:15:31 | 1:15:35 | |
They realised that win, lose or draw, | 1:15:35 | 1:15:37 | |
once I got into court, they'd be losing, | 1:15:37 | 1:15:39 | |
because even if the judge refused to hear him, | 1:15:39 | 1:15:42 | |
the media attention would have been devastating. | 1:15:42 | 1:15:44 | |
And the dean of the medical faculty said, | 1:15:46 | 1:15:48 | |
"That's it, get that chimp out of here." | 1:15:48 | 1:15:51 | |
Before anything could happen, | 1:15:57 | 1:16:00 | |
swooping down, | 1:16:00 | 1:16:02 | |
like in some Wagnerian drama, | 1:16:02 | 1:16:05 | |
comes Cleveland Amory. | 1:16:05 | 1:16:07 | |
I want this to be a place | 1:16:11 | 1:16:13 | |
where those animals | 1:16:13 | 1:16:15 | |
that have been abused, | 1:16:15 | 1:16:16 | |
that have been misused, | 1:16:16 | 1:16:18 | |
will finally and forever | 1:16:18 | 1:16:20 | |
have a place that they never will have to fear again. | 1:16:20 | 1:16:25 | |
(Henry) Mr Amory had, up until then, | 1:16:27 | 1:16:30 | |
perhaps a well-deserved reputation | 1:16:30 | 1:16:32 | |
for doing important work for animal rights. | 1:16:32 | 1:16:35 | |
And he just went and buys the chimp, | 1:16:35 | 1:16:37 | |
takes him to his Black Horse Ranch or whatever it was called, | 1:16:38 | 1:16:41 | |
and says, "I am saving Nim." | 1:16:41 | 1:16:44 | |
(Reporter) Cleveland Amory to the rescue again. | 1:16:44 | 1:16:46 | |
Nim will live here for the rest of his natural life. | 1:16:46 | 1:16:49 | |
(Marion) "Here my story ends, my troubles are over, and I am at home." | 1:16:52 | 1:16:56 | |
And that's what it says as you drive into Black Beauty Ranch. | 1:16:57 | 1:17:00 | |
He was the only animal we ever bought. | 1:17:02 | 1:17:03 | |
And we didn't know a thing about chimpanzees, | 1:17:03 | 1:17:06 | |
but we just thought it was better... | 1:17:06 | 1:17:08 | |
What we could do was better than where he was. | 1:17:08 | 1:17:10 | |
It was never meant to be a home for caged animals. | 1:17:13 | 1:17:16 | |
It is really a home for abused and abandoned equine animals. | 1:17:18 | 1:17:21 | |
That's animals just with hooves. | 1:17:21 | 1:17:23 | |
(Henry) We were aghast that he would just pick up this chimp, | 1:17:28 | 1:17:32 | |
transport him to a horse ranch somewhere in the middle of nowhere, | 1:17:32 | 1:17:35 | |
and there was nobody there who knew how to take care of a chimp. | 1:17:36 | 1:17:39 | |
(Marion) We brought him to Black Beauty and built a house for him. | 1:17:42 | 1:17:46 | |
It was a big, kind of a square place | 1:17:47 | 1:17:50 | |
and it had a porch outside so that he could go outside, | 1:17:50 | 1:17:53 | |
and he had all sorts of toys to play with, but it was solitary. | 1:17:53 | 1:17:55 | |
Chimps are social animals. | 1:18:08 | 1:18:09 | |
And you can't just put one chimp in a box | 1:18:09 | 1:18:12 | |
and expect everything to be cool. | 1:18:13 | 1:18:14 | |
Some of the time he was sitting like this, in the corner. | 1:18:22 | 1:18:26 | |
And you just thought, "What is he thinking," | 1:18:26 | 1:18:28 | |
"what is he missing, what can we do?" | 1:18:28 | 1:18:29 | |
Will you please be sure to stop off here in the nation's capital? | 1:18:29 | 1:18:33 | |
We had a TV down and then he broke that, | 1:18:33 | 1:18:36 | |
and then we put one up in the ceiling, | 1:18:36 | 1:18:38 | |
and he found a way to get up there. | 1:18:38 | 1:18:40 | |
(CHUCKLING) Well, OK, you don't get a television | 1:18:42 | 1:18:43 | |
if that's gonna be your attitude. | 1:18:43 | 1:18:45 | |
(Bob) I wrote letters to Cleveland bitching at him about how | 1:18:48 | 1:18:51 | |
leaving Nim there alone was virtually torture. | 1:18:52 | 1:18:55 | |
Not only did they not care what I thought, | 1:19:05 | 1:19:07 | |
they wanted me as far away from them as possible. | 1:19:07 | 1:19:10 | |
They wanted to make that pretty clear, | 1:19:11 | 1:19:13 | |
and they did make that pretty clear. | 1:19:13 | 1:19:15 | |
"If you come here, you'll be arrested." | 1:19:15 | 1:19:17 | |
I felt it, you know, and I just wanted to... | 1:19:34 | 1:19:36 | |
I don't know, I... | 1:19:38 | 1:19:40 | |
(Marion) He got out a number of times. | 1:19:54 | 1:19:56 | |
What he wanted to do was go in the ranch house, | 1:19:58 | 1:20:00 | |
be in the ranch house, be with people, sleep in a bed. | 1:20:01 | 1:20:05 | |
Well, we had a bed for him in his house. | 1:20:05 | 1:20:07 | |
We never slept in the bed in his house. | 1:20:07 | 1:20:09 | |
One time when he came in the house, there was a little white poodle | 1:20:11 | 1:20:15 | |
that just barked and barked and barked | 1:20:15 | 1:20:17 | |
at this chimpanzee coming through the door. | 1:20:17 | 1:20:19 | |
He just picked it up and swung him against the wall. | 1:20:19 | 1:20:22 | |
He meant to shut the dog up, but, of course, he killed the dog. | 1:20:22 | 1:20:25 | |
There was another time when he went in the house | 1:20:26 | 1:20:27 | |
and he picked up a chair and threw it through the window. | 1:20:27 | 1:20:29 | |
This is a very miserable chimpanzee, you know? | 1:20:36 | 1:20:39 | |
He'd had such a chequered life, | 1:20:41 | 1:20:42 | |
he'd gone from here to here to here to here to here. | 1:20:42 | 1:20:45 | |
They should not be taken away from their mothers in the first place. | 1:20:46 | 1:20:49 | |
KNOCKING | 1:20:50 | 1:20:52 | |
(Stephanie) I knew that Nim was there. | 1:21:01 | 1:21:02 | |
I didn't know anything about the quality of his life there. | 1:21:02 | 1:21:05 | |
You heard good things and bad things and so on. | 1:21:05 | 1:21:08 | |
And I thought, why not go? | 1:21:08 | 1:21:10 | |
(Jenny) So we all flew out to Texas, | 1:21:13 | 1:21:15 | |
we go to the ranch, we meet the people taking care of him. | 1:21:15 | 1:21:18 | |
He was alone. He was the only chimp there. | 1:21:19 | 1:21:21 | |
I happened to be looking at him when Stephanie got out of the car, | 1:21:28 | 1:21:31 | |
and he saw her and he recognised her right away, | 1:21:31 | 1:21:34 | |
and the look on his face was just, | 1:21:35 | 1:21:37 | |
"Oh, now you come." | 1:21:37 | 1:21:38 | |
"Now you come. Now I've been through all this, and now you come. " | 1:21:39 | 1:21:42 | |
(Jenny) He definitely recognised us. | 1:21:46 | 1:21:48 | |
Whether he was happy to see us, I don't know. | 1:21:49 | 1:21:52 | |
(Stephanie) He wasn't particularly attractive to me | 1:21:56 | 1:21:58 | |
now that he was an adult chimpanzee. | 1:21:58 | 1:22:00 | |
I didn't have a, | 1:22:00 | 1:22:01 | |
"Oh, isn't he beautiful," or anything like that. | 1:22:01 | 1:22:04 | |
He was... I didn't know him. | 1:22:04 | 1:22:05 | |
My mother decides | 1:22:08 | 1:22:09 | |
that she wants to go into the enclosure with Nim. | 1:22:09 | 1:22:13 | |
Which didn't... | 1:22:14 | 1:22:15 | |
Which happened sort of, "I'm going to go in with Nim." | 1:22:15 | 1:22:18 | |
We said to her, | 1:22:19 | 1:22:21 | |
"He doesn't look like he's going to welcome you," | 1:22:21 | 1:22:23 | |
"so maybe you shouldn't go into his facility." | 1:22:23 | 1:22:24 | |
I was curious. "Is he gonna sign?" | 1:22:26 | 1:22:28 | |
"What's gonna happen? What's it gonna be like?" | 1:22:28 | 1:22:30 | |
Stephanie, please don't go in there, he's not in a good mood. | 1:22:30 | 1:22:33 | |
You know, you can tell he's not in a good mood. | 1:22:34 | 1:22:36 | |
GRUNTING | 1:22:36 | 1:22:38 | |
I opened the gate and walked in. | 1:22:39 | 1:22:41 | |
Nim went up to the, like, | 1:22:42 | 1:22:44 | |
first-and-a-half storey, something like that, | 1:22:44 | 1:22:46 | |
pretty high up. | 1:22:46 | 1:22:48 | |
And I realised how much danger I was in. | 1:22:48 | 1:22:51 | |
HOOTING | 1:22:54 | 1:22:56 | |
He came down, and then it was a blur. | 1:22:56 | 1:23:00 | |
He grabbed her by the ankle | 1:23:01 | 1:23:03 | |
and he starts dragging her, running back and forth, | 1:23:03 | 1:23:05 | |
literally like a rag doll, just pulling her back and forth. | 1:23:06 | 1:23:08 | |
I think he's going to kill her. | 1:23:08 | 1:23:09 | |
He was going to swing her against the wall | 1:23:10 | 1:23:11 | |
and then swing her against the wall again. | 1:23:11 | 1:23:12 | |
There was nothing loving about it, he was furious. | 1:23:12 | 1:23:14 | |
HOOTING | 1:23:14 | 1:23:16 | |
I remember there being discussions about | 1:23:18 | 1:23:20 | |
getting the gun or not getting the gun, yeah. | 1:23:20 | 1:23:22 | |
So they got a gun. | 1:23:23 | 1:23:25 | |
No, he's not going to kill her, he's just really pissed off. | 1:23:30 | 1:23:33 | |
GRUNTING | 1:23:34 | 1:23:35 | |
(Stephanie) Things dissipate and he sort of wandered off | 1:23:36 | 1:23:38 | |
and I was able to get out a door. | 1:23:38 | 1:23:40 | |
I have no idea how long the whole thing lasted. | 1:23:40 | 1:23:43 | |
The fact that he didn't kill her meant a lot, | 1:23:44 | 1:23:48 | |
cos he could have. | 1:23:48 | 1:23:49 | |
And he would have been dead, cos they would have shot him. | 1:23:51 | 1:23:54 | |
(Stephanie) I had abandoned him, | 1:23:57 | 1:24:00 | |
and he had managed to grow up, and I had walked back in | 1:24:00 | 1:24:03 | |
as if I had not abandoned him, and he said, "No." | 1:24:04 | 1:24:08 | |
"This is my space." | 1:24:08 | 1:24:09 | |
"I'm going to put you in your place, but I'm not going to hurt you." | 1:24:10 | 1:24:13 | |
We had done so much damage, | 1:24:22 | 1:24:25 | |
removing him from what his life should have been. | 1:24:25 | 1:24:29 | |
We exploited his human-like nature without regard to his chimpanzee nature. | 1:24:29 | 1:24:34 | |
We were co-opting him right from the beginning. | 1:24:35 | 1:24:37 | |
It was wrong. It was wrong. | 1:24:38 | 1:24:41 | |
(Bob) About a year after Nim was sold to the Fund, | 1:25:14 | 1:25:16 | |
they purchased a female chimpanzee to be with him. | 1:25:16 | 1:25:19 | |
Around ten years after that, I heard she was in failing health. | 1:25:20 | 1:25:23 | |
I was worried that Nim was going to be on his own again. | 1:25:24 | 1:25:26 | |
That same time I was told that a new guy had taken over the ranch, | 1:25:27 | 1:25:30 | |
and his name was Chris Burn. | 1:25:30 | 1:25:32 | |
So I approached Chris about visiting Nim. | 1:25:33 | 1:25:35 | |
Once I met Chris I was really, really reassured | 1:25:41 | 1:25:46 | |
that things were going to be much better for Nim. | 1:25:46 | 1:25:49 | |
(Man) Look, Nim. Somebody's come to see you. | 1:25:49 | 1:25:51 | |
Oh, he's got his hackles up. | 1:25:51 | 1:25:53 | |
- Hey, it's OK. - (Bob) Hi, Nim. What's up, bud? Nim. | 1:25:55 | 1:25:58 | |
Nim! What's up, bud? | 1:26:01 | 1:26:03 | |
CLICKING TONGUE | 1:26:05 | 1:26:07 | |
Yeah, I know, buddy. Who am I? Who am I? | 1:26:07 | 1:26:09 | |
Hey, who are you? | 1:26:10 | 1:26:11 | |
Play, play. | 1:26:15 | 1:26:16 | |
Play where? Where? | 1:26:19 | 1:26:20 | |
BOB PANTING PLAYFULLY | 1:26:28 | 1:26:29 | |
You are having such a good time. | 1:26:32 | 1:26:34 | |
I said to Chris, "I have a way to help you, | 1:26:45 | 1:26:48 | |
"and I know I can help you to get other chimps, | 1:26:48 | 1:26:51 | |
"so let's work together." | 1:26:52 | 1:26:54 | |
Buddy, things are improving. Things are way improving. | 1:26:56 | 1:27:01 | |
It's taken awhile, though. It's taken a long time. Hasn't been easy. | 1:27:01 | 1:27:05 | |
(James) On August the 10th, 1995, | 1:27:06 | 1:27:10 | |
the Dean of NYU Medical Center announced that LEMSIP would be closed, | 1:27:11 | 1:27:16 | |
and I thought, "I'm going to try and save as many of the chimps as I can," | 1:27:17 | 1:27:21 | |
"but in a very quiet way, secretly." | 1:27:22 | 1:27:26 | |
(Bob) Hey, Lulu. What's up, girl? How you doing? | 1:27:27 | 1:27:30 | |
(James) That's where Bob came in through the secret network. | 1:27:30 | 1:27:34 | |
(Bob) What's up, Nim? Who is this over here? | 1:27:34 | 1:27:37 | |
Who is this over here, Nim? Who is it? | 1:27:37 | 1:27:40 | |
This is going to be your new roommate! | 1:27:40 | 1:27:42 | |
Isn't that nice? | 1:27:47 | 1:27:48 | |
(Bob) What do you think, Midge? I told you it would be nice, didn't I? | 1:28:01 | 1:28:05 | |
Jim Mahoney moved literally 50, 60 chimps. | 1:28:05 | 1:28:09 | |
And we did indeed get two chimps from LEMSIP, | 1:28:11 | 1:28:15 | |
through Mahoney, to Black Beauty Ranch. | 1:28:15 | 1:28:18 | |
(James) Midge was a youngish adult male | 1:28:18 | 1:28:22 | |
and Lulu was very gentle. | 1:28:23 | 1:28:27 | |
Lulu immediately went to her defence and Nim came over. | 1:28:30 | 1:28:35 | |
Very good, Lulu. She's so good. | 1:28:35 | 1:28:38 | |
(Bob) Yeah, you're a friend, Lulu. | 1:28:39 | 1:28:40 | |
(James) I think Midge and Lulu really helped him out enormously. | 1:28:40 | 1:28:44 | |
What? Now you're making noises for it. | 1:28:49 | 1:28:51 | |
What's the name of this? | 1:28:51 | 1:28:52 | |
Nim's. Nim's what? Soda pop, I know. | 1:28:52 | 1:28:55 | |
(Bob) Things were as good as could be expected, | 1:28:55 | 1:28:58 | |
based on everything you know that had gone on previous. | 1:28:58 | 1:29:02 | |
Oh, yeah, that's so good, Nim. Isn't it good? | 1:29:02 | 1:29:05 | |
It wasn't exactly perfect. | 1:29:05 | 1:29:08 | |
But it was pretty damn good. | 1:29:08 | 1:29:10 | |
(James) Chimps are truly wonderful animals. | 1:29:24 | 1:29:28 | |
They're very forgiving, the vast majority of them. | 1:29:30 | 1:29:33 | |
They'll forgive you. | 1:29:37 | 1:29:39 |