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This programme contains very strong language. | 0:00:02 | 0:00:09 | |
They started in very different places. | 0:00:26 | 0:00:29 | |
Gilbert Proesch growing up in Italy, George Passmore in Plymouth. | 0:00:29 | 0:00:33 | |
But after meeting in London in 1967, they became personally and professionally inseparable, | 0:00:33 | 0:00:39 | |
their surnames forgotten, as Gilbert and George. | 0:00:39 | 0:00:42 | |
Artistically recognised with the Turner Prize in 1986, they also have | 0:00:42 | 0:00:47 | |
unusual public recognition, through art that frequently uses their own images, | 0:00:47 | 0:00:52 | |
as living, singing sculptures, or in pictures, meticulously suited or naked. | 0:00:52 | 0:00:56 | |
But because their work features words - and turds, | 0:00:56 | 0:01:00 | |
among other bodily substances - that some consider taboo, | 0:01:00 | 0:01:04 | |
they have also, by their opponents, been called names other than Gilbert and George. | 0:01:04 | 0:01:09 | |
Their latest show, The Urethra Postcard Art, featuring sex cards from phoneboxes, | 0:01:09 | 0:01:16 | |
shaped in a twist on genital geometry, will continue the reactions of both fans and detractors. | 0:01:16 | 0:01:22 | |
Is it an equal partnership always, or is one of you the dominant figure? | 0:01:22 | 0:01:28 | |
We would say it's very equal in a modern way. | 0:01:28 | 0:01:31 | |
-Yes. -I think I would say we are both able to do different things | 0:01:31 | 0:01:36 | |
in an extraordinary way. | 0:01:36 | 0:01:38 | |
And together, we make a whole. | 0:01:38 | 0:01:40 | |
I think one is more able towards that | 0:01:40 | 0:01:43 | |
and the other towards the other, but together, we create a total idea. | 0:01:43 | 0:01:46 | |
As we always say, it's two people but one artist. | 0:01:46 | 0:01:49 | |
That's the key to it, the secret, really. | 0:01:49 | 0:01:52 | |
Have you ever had serious arguments, first of all professionally, in the case of the art? | 0:01:52 | 0:01:58 | |
Because as you know, many, many people who write together or who perform together, | 0:01:58 | 0:02:03 | |
they end up not speaking. But have you ever had a serious disagreement? | 0:02:03 | 0:02:07 | |
We say that we don't argue, and we wouldn't tell you if we did! | 0:02:07 | 0:02:11 | |
But we don't argue. No, we're very conscious of the pain and hostility and fighting in the world. | 0:02:11 | 0:02:19 | |
We think that is... every day, we think of that, that human suffering is so great, | 0:02:19 | 0:02:23 | |
that why should we become part of that? | 0:02:23 | 0:02:26 | |
Why should we fight or argue? | 0:02:26 | 0:02:28 | |
Alone, we would be lost. So we don't want to destroy that. | 0:02:28 | 0:02:33 | |
Being one removes self doubt in both of our cases, which is very powerful. | 0:02:33 | 0:02:37 | |
Extremely powerful. It's a great strength, being two. | 0:02:37 | 0:02:40 | |
That's why most of the world is divided into twos. | 0:02:40 | 0:02:43 | |
-It's perfectly normal. -And not only that, it created for us a world that we don't need anybody. | 0:02:43 | 0:02:49 | |
We don't need friends, we don't need cities, we don't need to go anywhere to be happier. | 0:02:49 | 0:02:56 | |
But together, alone, we are able to think in a very interesting way. | 0:02:56 | 0:03:01 | |
We think we're enormously privileged that we can go to our studio | 0:03:01 | 0:03:04 | |
in the morning, and say exactly what we want in our pictures. | 0:03:04 | 0:03:08 | |
Nobody can interfere. We don't have to ask anybody or refer to anybody. | 0:03:08 | 0:03:11 | |
That's an extraordinary privilege, very few people have that freedom. | 0:03:11 | 0:03:15 | |
And the other privilege is to be able to take those pictures out, into the world, | 0:03:15 | 0:03:20 | |
to thousands of people in London, or in Madrid or New York. | 0:03:20 | 0:03:23 | |
It's extraordinary. | 0:03:23 | 0:03:25 | |
We're very proud of having made a path that's able do that. | 0:03:25 | 0:03:29 | |
The parallels that people have often used, one is a comedy double act, | 0:03:29 | 0:03:34 | |
which is obvious, going back to The Singing Sculptures, you can see why. | 0:03:34 | 0:03:38 | |
Another one is a marriage, a married couple. | 0:03:38 | 0:03:40 | |
We just think Gilbert and George the artist, really. | 0:03:40 | 0:03:43 | |
It's much clearer then. | 0:03:43 | 0:03:45 | |
Expressing our new feelings on the walls, to create a new sculpture. | 0:03:45 | 0:03:50 | |
Who cares about marriages or whatever? Nothing. | 0:03:50 | 0:03:54 | |
Being normal and being weird at the same time, that's what we always want. | 0:03:54 | 0:03:58 | |
Never just the one. | 0:03:58 | 0:04:00 | |
How is the tea, Gilbert? | 0:04:00 | 0:04:03 | |
It's very nice. | 0:04:03 | 0:04:05 | |
Would you like some cake? | 0:04:05 | 0:04:07 | |
Thank you. Yes. | 0:04:07 | 0:04:09 | |
-Would you like some cheese? -Yes. | 0:04:10 | 0:04:13 | |
I would like very much a piece of Leicester. | 0:04:13 | 0:04:16 | |
Here you are. | 0:04:16 | 0:04:18 | |
Thank you, George. | 0:04:18 | 0:04:19 | |
How do you feel, Gilbert? | 0:04:22 | 0:04:24 | |
I feel relaxed. | 0:04:24 | 0:04:26 | |
After the long walk. | 0:04:26 | 0:04:28 | |
How do you feel? | 0:04:28 | 0:04:30 | |
I feel fine, thank you. | 0:04:30 | 0:04:32 | |
Rather brainy and relaxed. | 0:04:32 | 0:04:35 | |
You may not want to answer - it has been said that you are married, which would be possible, but are you? | 0:04:35 | 0:04:40 | |
We did have a civil partnership recently, yes, | 0:04:40 | 0:04:43 | |
but for more practical purposes rather than as an imitation straight marriage, yes. | 0:04:43 | 0:04:49 | |
-Practical purposes, presumably, financial and practical and so on. -Yes. -When I look at you now, | 0:04:49 | 0:04:54 | |
today, for this interview, you have suits of similar design, but different colours, | 0:04:54 | 0:04:59 | |
ties of similar design, but different colours, similar shoes, is all of that carefully planned in advance? | 0:04:59 | 0:05:07 | |
We just want to devote ourselves to art. | 0:05:07 | 0:05:10 | |
We're all dragged at increasing speed towards the grave. | 0:05:10 | 0:05:13 | |
Any picture we don't make will be not made by somebody else, so we don't need to go shopping. | 0:05:13 | 0:05:19 | |
We don't have to cook. | 0:05:19 | 0:05:21 | |
Everything's based on having a very similar life, including the tailoring. | 0:05:21 | 0:05:25 | |
We don't have to change style every three years, like the boys in the city. | 0:05:25 | 0:05:28 | |
We don't have to have pegged trousers and big shoulders. | 0:05:28 | 0:05:31 | |
It's always the same style and very simple. | 0:05:31 | 0:05:35 | |
The shirts we buy every three years, they're always white. | 0:05:35 | 0:05:38 | |
Ties, we only wear the ones that we're given as presents. | 0:05:38 | 0:05:41 | |
It's a very, very simple life, devoted to art. | 0:05:41 | 0:05:44 | |
But it started out as Sunday best. When we used to go to see galleries, | 0:05:44 | 0:05:51 | |
to try to promote ourself at the beginning, | 0:05:51 | 0:05:53 | |
we had what you call the Sunday best and we kept to that, and it became | 0:05:53 | 0:05:58 | |
like the uniform for a monk, or the uniform of all the politicians. | 0:05:58 | 0:06:03 | |
They all have, in some way, the same kind of suit on. | 0:06:03 | 0:06:07 | |
OK, not all the artists have a suit on, but more and more artists have suits now. | 0:06:07 | 0:06:11 | |
We always said that it's like if you go for a job interview, | 0:06:11 | 0:06:15 | |
or if you go to a funeral, you put on a suit, and we come from that sort of background. | 0:06:15 | 0:06:20 | |
We even said early on that we wanted to be the artist that the mother wouldn't be ashamed of. | 0:06:20 | 0:06:24 | |
Didn't work out exactly like that, but... | 0:06:24 | 0:06:27 | |
Well, we'll talk about that later, about some of the content which would actually worry some mothers. | 0:06:27 | 0:06:33 | |
-They're versions in pairs, though? -Yes, they are versions in pairs. | 0:06:33 | 0:06:36 | |
Yes. It's a myth created by the media that we have identical suits. | 0:06:36 | 0:06:39 | |
If we had identical suits, one of us would be very ill-fitting, wouldn't they? | 0:06:39 | 0:06:45 | |
-Quite true. -It is a kind of uniform. It is. Yes. | 0:06:45 | 0:06:48 | |
"The responsibility suits of our art," I think we wrote in 1969. | 0:06:48 | 0:06:52 | |
Does that ever become a burden that you can't nip out for a pint of milk | 0:06:52 | 0:06:56 | |
wearing tracksuit trousers and a sweatshirt? | 0:06:56 | 0:06:59 | |
Why should we do that? That would be... | 0:06:59 | 0:07:01 | |
-Mad. -Mad. It's very good. It's very simple and very anonymous. | 0:07:01 | 0:07:05 | |
You can travel anywhere in the world, Australia, Johannesburg, New York. | 0:07:05 | 0:07:09 | |
Everyone wears suits. It's completely normal. Every Prime Minister in the world. | 0:07:09 | 0:07:13 | |
We never want to change that. It's fantastic. | 0:07:13 | 0:07:16 | |
You're never searched at airports. | 0:07:16 | 0:07:18 | |
You can always get a table in a restaurant. It's extraordinary. | 0:07:18 | 0:07:22 | |
It never becomes a burden, that 40 years ago, in effect, you set the rules in the laws of sculptures? | 0:07:22 | 0:07:29 | |
No, works so well. Even a young lady friend of ours took her mother | 0:07:29 | 0:07:33 | |
to the Tate Modern exhibition with the hope of disturbing or upsetting or... | 0:07:33 | 0:07:37 | |
and on leaving the exhibition, the mother said, "I'm not quite sure | 0:07:37 | 0:07:41 | |
"of all of their pictures, dear, but they do dress so nicely." So you see, we got away with it. | 0:07:41 | 0:07:46 | |
Getting away with it, that's very important. | 0:07:47 | 0:07:50 | |
We never wanted to be the scruffy artist, anyway. The so-called conventional artist. | 0:07:50 | 0:07:56 | |
Do people generally know which one is which, or are you addressed randomly as Gilbert, George? | 0:07:56 | 0:08:03 | |
I think amongst our friends and colleagues, they will know, yes. | 0:08:03 | 0:08:06 | |
But we don't care about that so much. | 0:08:06 | 0:08:09 | |
It's very funny, because a lot of people believe that Gilbert is a more English name than George, | 0:08:09 | 0:08:14 | |
and that's why when we go to Germany and other places, they always think | 0:08:14 | 0:08:18 | |
George must be the German or the Italian one. | 0:08:18 | 0:08:21 | |
It's extraordinary. It's a sort of tribal thing. They say, | 0:08:21 | 0:08:24 | |
"It's a vonderful exhibition, and we're especially proud of you, Georg!" | 0:08:24 | 0:08:27 | |
Extraordinary. And I say, "Sank you so much." | 0:08:27 | 0:08:31 | |
It's very good. | 0:08:31 | 0:08:33 | |
This is another of the legends, that you go to the same place each day to eat, but is that literally true? | 0:08:34 | 0:08:40 | |
Yes. We go to the same restaurant every evening, when we're not entertaining, | 0:08:40 | 0:08:45 | |
and we have the same meal, month in, month out, until we decide to change it. | 0:08:45 | 0:08:50 | |
Then we'll change it and that will be the same meal every evening until we change our minds again. | 0:08:50 | 0:08:55 | |
We don't like the idea of reading menus or thinking about food, it seems rather a waste of brain to us. | 0:08:55 | 0:09:02 | |
So the whole life from the suits, to the restaurant, it's all about leaving time for the work? | 0:09:02 | 0:09:08 | |
To free up the brain. | 0:09:08 | 0:09:10 | |
To use the brain in a special way. Not to be cluttered. | 0:09:10 | 0:09:14 | |
To be free people that can think whatever they want. | 0:09:14 | 0:09:17 | |
We trained ourselves to clear the head, the most extraordinary thing that you can have - | 0:09:17 | 0:09:22 | |
it feels like a big desert in front, panning out like that, which we can do something with. | 0:09:22 | 0:09:27 | |
What's your favourite TV programme? | 0:09:27 | 0:09:30 | |
Songs of Praise. | 0:09:30 | 0:09:32 | |
Why did you choose to live as artists? | 0:09:32 | 0:09:36 | |
It was not our choice, we are driven to be artists. | 0:09:36 | 0:09:40 | |
What's your biggest hope? | 0:09:40 | 0:09:42 | |
We hope for better recognition. | 0:09:42 | 0:09:45 | |
What's your biggest fear? | 0:09:45 | 0:09:48 | |
We fear everything. | 0:09:48 | 0:09:50 | |
All the time. | 0:09:50 | 0:09:51 | |
Much of the work - and we're going to talk about this more - has been regarded as shocking | 0:09:51 | 0:09:56 | |
by some people in terms of the words used, the materials used, has that ever been your intention? | 0:09:56 | 0:10:03 | |
We always talk about de-shocking, really. We prefer to think of it in those terms. | 0:10:04 | 0:10:09 | |
We're not the artists who make people run screaming | 0:10:09 | 0:10:12 | |
from the museum or gallery, or have the police involved. | 0:10:12 | 0:10:16 | |
-We're very subversive, really. Not so controversial in that way. -Why do you use the term de-shocking? | 0:10:16 | 0:10:21 | |
Tell me more about what you meant by that. | 0:10:21 | 0:10:23 | |
When a person says, "You shouldn't have made that picture, Shitted, it shouldn't have been exhibited," | 0:10:23 | 0:10:29 | |
we say, "That's your view, but you're too late, because we're talking about it." | 0:10:29 | 0:10:33 | |
It's as simple as that. People in general are not shocked, | 0:10:33 | 0:10:37 | |
only the media say that people are shocked. | 0:10:37 | 0:10:40 | |
They have this patronising idea of the ordinary person. | 0:10:40 | 0:10:43 | |
Ordinary people are very, very complex and elaborate and sophisticated. | 0:10:43 | 0:10:48 | |
It's newspapers more, I think, not ordinary people. | 0:10:48 | 0:10:52 | |
Never had a taxi driver or waiter say, your pictures are shocking or provocative. Never. | 0:10:52 | 0:10:57 | |
They love them. "Good on you guys," they say. | 0:10:57 | 0:10:59 | |
I think shocking would be more like killing somebody, or hurting somebody. | 0:10:59 | 0:11:04 | |
The news, television news, that's shocking. | 0:11:04 | 0:11:06 | |
Hurting people. I think that's shocking. | 0:11:06 | 0:11:08 | |
You also play with expectation, because some people, and indeed, some journalists, | 0:11:08 | 0:11:13 | |
seeing the word "urethra" in the title of this exhibition, they have a very different idea of | 0:11:13 | 0:11:18 | |
what they might see from, in fact, what they do see. | 0:11:18 | 0:11:22 | |
I suppose, to some extent, the urethra is de-shocked in these, | 0:11:22 | 0:11:26 | |
because if your urethra really looked like that, you should see a doctor quite urgently! | 0:11:26 | 0:11:31 | |
We like the word "urethra", because people don't use the common term for it. | 0:11:31 | 0:11:36 | |
We wouldn't even use it on television probably. | 0:11:36 | 0:11:38 | |
-It would allow the bleeper immediately. -Yes. | 0:11:38 | 0:11:41 | |
And have you been to a urethra exhibition before? Certainly not. So it's very good to have one. | 0:11:41 | 0:11:46 | |
Even after all, it is the beginning of life. That's where we come from, roughly. | 0:11:46 | 0:11:52 | |
The sperm. By the urethra. We are fascinated by all this, | 0:11:52 | 0:11:55 | |
what you call opening up new ways of thinking, you know. | 0:11:55 | 0:11:59 | |
Everybody's excited in some way, even when they are shocked in some way, | 0:11:59 | 0:12:03 | |
but for us, it is stimulating. Even like the telephone box leaflets. | 0:12:03 | 0:12:09 | |
Everybody who goes into a telephone box tries to look at it only from | 0:12:09 | 0:12:12 | |
one eye, and pretend the other eye is looking somewhere else. | 0:12:12 | 0:12:16 | |
And now, they can come in and look at it, straight out. | 0:12:16 | 0:12:19 | |
You're talking about those little - which you have used in some of these - those little postcards | 0:12:19 | 0:12:24 | |
-advertising the services of often young men and women. Often not so young. -Yes. | 0:12:24 | 0:12:30 | |
We were fascinated. They're part of London life. Paris, New York, they don't have them. | 0:12:30 | 0:12:35 | |
Rome, they don't have them. It's another first for Britain. It's extraordinary. | 0:12:35 | 0:12:39 | |
It is, in the end, a huge social document that we collected all of these cards. | 0:12:39 | 0:12:43 | |
They don't exist anymore, the ones in this show. They're all different now. | 0:12:43 | 0:12:47 | |
They're more boring now, so they are really from the golden age of telephone box cards, you could say. | 0:12:47 | 0:12:53 | |
So the cards in these, they are real cards? | 0:12:53 | 0:12:56 | |
They're all real cards, stuck down. Yes, that's very important. | 0:12:56 | 0:13:00 | |
Were you tempted to ring any of the numbers and see who was on the end? | 0:13:00 | 0:13:04 | |
They're doing it for us. A lot of people. | 0:13:04 | 0:13:06 | |
Are they? I thought they might be. | 0:13:06 | 0:13:08 | |
Yes, it was very funny, because actually, we did another group of pictures | 0:13:08 | 0:13:12 | |
called the New Horny Pictures, and some of the, what you call, the gentlemen who are advertising, | 0:13:12 | 0:13:19 | |
they thanked us for being in the artwork. | 0:13:19 | 0:13:22 | |
-Becoming immortal, they felt. -Do you read reviews, | 0:13:22 | 0:13:26 | |
and if so, to what extent do you take notice of them? | 0:13:26 | 0:13:30 | |
My motto is, I don't want to know. | 0:13:30 | 0:13:34 | |
That's what I say to myself. | 0:13:34 | 0:13:36 | |
Day and night. | 0:13:36 | 0:13:38 | |
-And George is... in the end, I will see them as well. -I tell him the good bits. | 0:13:38 | 0:13:42 | |
But because we realise, it took a long time to realise, we wouldn't change our way of making art. | 0:13:42 | 0:13:49 | |
It's either good or bad. | 0:13:49 | 0:13:51 | |
We wouldn't. | 0:13:51 | 0:13:53 | |
So, I mean, they are very useful to get people into the gallery, that's what we like to do, | 0:13:53 | 0:14:01 | |
but more and more, we are doing the campaign outside the reviews ourselves. | 0:14:01 | 0:14:06 | |
Because a lot of art critics are prejudiced. They go with idea, they know exactly what they see. | 0:14:06 | 0:14:11 | |
They don't even have to come to see the show. They know it. | 0:14:11 | 0:14:14 | |
They are prejudiced towards certain kind of ideas. | 0:14:14 | 0:14:18 | |
I want to talk now about the one area of your life which was separate, which is childhood. | 0:14:18 | 0:14:24 | |
If we start with you first, Gilbert, what are your earliest memories of your Italian childhood? | 0:14:24 | 0:14:30 | |
I remember quite a lot. | 0:14:30 | 0:14:32 | |
Yes, I must admit that. | 0:14:32 | 0:14:34 | |
It's a fantastic village, where I come from. | 0:14:34 | 0:14:37 | |
It's a little village of 900 people in the Dolomites. | 0:14:37 | 0:14:41 | |
Beautiful mountains, extraordinary. | 0:14:41 | 0:14:43 | |
Was there any interest or sense of art in your family? | 0:14:43 | 0:14:47 | |
Very much so. It's very exciting, because my father was a shoemaker. | 0:14:47 | 0:14:53 | |
I had an uncle who had some kind of bone cancer. | 0:14:53 | 0:14:58 | |
He was in many different hospitals, like in Venice and elsewhere. | 0:14:58 | 0:15:03 | |
He always used to paint. | 0:15:03 | 0:15:06 | |
In fact, he actually went to an art school when he was very young already, and that's it. | 0:15:06 | 0:15:12 | |
That's what I wanted to do. | 0:15:12 | 0:15:14 | |
I must have been six or seven years old when I became interested. | 0:15:14 | 0:15:21 | |
George, you, presumably, growing up in Plymouth, a famous naval town, | 0:15:21 | 0:15:25 | |
there was a much stronger sense of the post-war period? | 0:15:25 | 0:15:30 | |
We were actually bombed out of Plymouth in '42, so we ended up in Totnes, an old borough. | 0:15:30 | 0:15:38 | |
I think I had quite a privileged childhood, considering the times, really. | 0:15:40 | 0:15:45 | |
It was just my mother and my brother, | 0:15:45 | 0:15:48 | |
and we were never allowed to play with the other children, which was very good. | 0:15:48 | 0:15:54 | |
We never became the local rough idiots. It was a very good idea. | 0:15:54 | 0:15:59 | |
Was that because she thought they were rough, your mother? | 0:15:59 | 0:16:02 | |
I think she wanted better things for her children, and she was quite right. | 0:16:02 | 0:16:07 | |
Did you feel the lack of a father? There must have come an age when you were aware of that? | 0:16:07 | 0:16:11 | |
No. Nothing was ever mentioned in the family about father or Dad or anything. | 0:16:11 | 0:16:17 | |
It felt very normal, really. | 0:16:17 | 0:16:19 | |
You must have been curious about him at some point? | 0:16:19 | 0:16:22 | |
I was curious, and when I was 21, I went to see him, yes, | 0:16:22 | 0:16:26 | |
for the first and last time. | 0:16:26 | 0:16:28 | |
It wasn't necessary to go back again. | 0:16:28 | 0:16:30 | |
I had to find him in a pub in the village, | 0:16:30 | 0:16:34 | |
and the barman pointed him out to me. | 0:16:34 | 0:16:37 | |
I went up and said, "Do you think we could go to the other bar?" | 0:16:37 | 0:16:40 | |
He said, "There's no need to do that, what's your business?" | 0:16:40 | 0:16:44 | |
I said, "Could we go to the other bar?" probably 17 times. | 0:16:44 | 0:16:47 | |
I said, "My name's George and I think I'm your son." He said, "Good God, let's go to the other bar!" | 0:16:47 | 0:16:52 | |
It was very amusing. | 0:16:52 | 0:16:55 | |
Was there any sense of art in your family? | 0:16:55 | 0:16:59 | |
No, I think not, probably. | 0:16:59 | 0:17:01 | |
No, absolutely not. | 0:17:01 | 0:17:03 | |
I was interested in art from being a child, and as a teenager, | 0:17:03 | 0:17:07 | |
I bought a second hand book of Van Gogh's letters. | 0:17:07 | 0:17:13 | |
That convinced me entirely, because I realised that it was somebody who hadn't done the right thing, | 0:17:13 | 0:17:18 | |
hadn't had the right training, mixed in the wrong circles, | 0:17:18 | 0:17:21 | |
behaved very badly, but still succeeded totally in being able to speak from the grave forever. | 0:17:21 | 0:17:26 | |
That impressed me completely. I'm still impressed by Van Gogh. | 0:17:26 | 0:17:32 | |
Did you know relatively early on what your sexuality was? | 0:17:32 | 0:17:36 | |
We don't think of it in that way. We try to be post-gay, in a way. | 0:17:36 | 0:17:41 | |
To say that everyone is sexual in some way, everyone is capable of everything. | 0:17:41 | 0:17:46 | |
We prefer the idea of nil, the non-divisional way of thinking about sex. | 0:17:46 | 0:17:51 | |
That everything is fine. | 0:17:51 | 0:17:54 | |
They used to do it, even. All the Romans, they did everything. | 0:17:54 | 0:17:58 | |
You didn't have to be one way only. Sex is sex. | 0:17:58 | 0:18:03 | |
We don't like to be part of shows towards a certain kind of sex. | 0:18:05 | 0:18:10 | |
Not at all. We accept sex, that's about it. | 0:18:10 | 0:18:15 | |
But we don't want to be divided into certain sections. | 0:18:15 | 0:18:22 | |
I think it is very bad, even. | 0:18:22 | 0:18:23 | |
Because anybody is able to do whatever they want, no? | 0:18:23 | 0:18:29 | |
Different ways of sexuality. | 0:18:29 | 0:18:30 | |
We don't know what everybody does behind their bedroom doors. | 0:18:30 | 0:18:33 | |
When you're listed, as you have been, in those lists | 0:18:33 | 0:18:38 | |
of the 100 most influential gay people in Britain... | 0:18:38 | 0:18:41 | |
Oh, that's perfectly all right, of course. | 0:18:41 | 0:18:45 | |
-So, although that is a division, that doesn't irritate you? -We wouldn't be irritated by that. Not at all. | 0:18:45 | 0:18:50 | |
There is nothing we can do about it! | 0:18:50 | 0:18:52 | |
The moment when you met - ideally, as on the TV show Mr and Mrs, | 0:18:54 | 0:18:58 | |
we would send one of you into a soundproof booth, | 0:18:58 | 0:19:01 | |
to check that you have similar memories, but this first meeting, 25th September 19... | 0:19:01 | 0:19:08 | |
-Good heavens, you have the date! -1967. | 0:19:08 | 0:19:11 | |
Are your memories, in fact, the same of it? | 0:19:11 | 0:19:14 | |
I always say something that came over us, like an atmosphere or a cloud. | 0:19:14 | 0:19:19 | |
It wasn't something we decided or went for. | 0:19:19 | 0:19:23 | |
I think we were almost artists before we realised. | 0:19:23 | 0:19:28 | |
People were commenting on it. | 0:19:28 | 0:19:31 | |
The most common comment at that time was, "How interesting, but of course, it can't last." | 0:19:31 | 0:19:35 | |
Because twos didn't last at that time. | 0:19:35 | 0:19:39 | |
For me, it was simple. I went to St Martin's School of Art. I couldn't speak English. | 0:19:39 | 0:19:43 | |
I wanted to be there, because when I was in my last year in Munich, | 0:19:43 | 0:19:48 | |
I thought I had to be somewhere else | 0:19:48 | 0:19:50 | |
where it is happening. And London was it. | 0:19:50 | 0:19:54 | |
I became very fascinated by St Martin's School of Art. | 0:19:54 | 0:19:57 | |
I managed to squeeze in, in some way. | 0:19:57 | 0:20:00 | |
I remember walking up there and George took an interest. | 0:20:02 | 0:20:06 | |
That was it. I don't ask him any questions, he took an interest in me. | 0:20:06 | 0:20:11 | |
We went out and we created a world for ourselves. | 0:20:11 | 0:20:15 | |
He showed me London, he showed me the East End of London. | 0:20:15 | 0:20:18 | |
At that moment, we really became two persons together, | 0:20:18 | 0:20:22 | |
without actually making a big decision. | 0:20:22 | 0:20:26 | |
We weren't like the other students, that's for sure. | 0:20:26 | 0:20:29 | |
They were all intent on becoming artists and working out how to become an artist. | 0:20:29 | 0:20:33 | |
We felt we were artists anyway. | 0:20:33 | 0:20:36 | |
The G&G world started | 0:20:36 | 0:20:40 | |
when we were stranded outside St Martin's School of Art, when we left. | 0:20:40 | 0:20:47 | |
The moment that you leave school, you are alone for the first time, | 0:20:47 | 0:20:51 | |
because they don't want to know you any more. The teachers think, that's it. | 0:20:51 | 0:20:55 | |
They turned against us, in fact, they turned against us. | 0:20:55 | 0:20:59 | |
-In what way? -Even the head of sculpture, the very famous Frank Martin, turned against us. | 0:20:59 | 0:21:05 | |
He felt that we were betraying the cause of sculpture, probably. | 0:21:05 | 0:21:10 | |
We were very unsure of the attitude of the college. | 0:21:10 | 0:21:13 | |
We asked a friend to write a letter, | 0:21:13 | 0:21:16 | |
saying she was interested in doing some project, would they recommend us? | 0:21:16 | 0:21:21 | |
Back came a letter from the college, "Under no circumstances have anything to do with these people!" | 0:21:21 | 0:21:26 | |
Even then, we felt very proud. We thought we must be doing right. | 0:21:28 | 0:21:32 | |
It was very exciting, because then we had this idea for the Singing Sculpture, | 0:21:32 | 0:21:39 | |
and we thought, OK, we have to go back to St Martin School of Art, | 0:21:39 | 0:21:43 | |
the Royal College of Art, the Camberwell School of Art, the Slade School of Art, | 0:21:43 | 0:21:47 | |
and we did amazing publicity for it. Everybody was there. | 0:21:47 | 0:21:52 | |
# Underneath the arches | 0:21:52 | 0:21:54 | |
# We dream our dreams away... # | 0:21:54 | 0:21:57 | |
Anyway, Frank Martin left immediately. | 0:21:57 | 0:22:00 | |
He stormed out in the middle of it. | 0:22:00 | 0:22:03 | |
500 students saw this man enraged, stomping out. So they knew it was a marvellous sculpture. | 0:22:03 | 0:22:09 | |
If they weren't sure, that told them. | 0:22:09 | 0:22:11 | |
It was very good, because they rejected us, | 0:22:11 | 0:22:14 | |
then we knew we had to do it on our own. | 0:22:14 | 0:22:19 | |
# Heralding the dawn | 0:22:19 | 0:22:21 | |
# Sleeping when it's raining... # | 0:22:21 | 0:22:23 | |
What led directly to the idea of the Singing Sculptures? | 0:22:23 | 0:22:28 | |
We didn't do just the singing... we did every day, something different. | 0:22:28 | 0:22:34 | |
We did a Walking Sculpture, Singing Sculpture, the Eating Sculpture, Magazine Sculpture, | 0:22:34 | 0:22:39 | |
the Postal Sculpture, every day, creating a G&G world, | 0:22:39 | 0:22:44 | |
without having to be in a gallery. So the world... all the world... | 0:22:44 | 0:22:51 | |
-What did they say in the text? -All of the world was an art gallery. -All the world an art gallery. | 0:22:51 | 0:22:56 | |
That is what we did. We were able to speak to artistic people, in some way, | 0:22:56 | 0:23:03 | |
with the Postal Sculptures we did in '69, | 0:23:03 | 0:23:06 | |
sending out to collectors and stuff like that. And even, in 1970, | 0:23:06 | 0:23:11 | |
'71 or '72, we did a Magazine Sculpture for the Sunday Times. | 0:23:11 | 0:23:18 | |
We realised we couldn't be in a gallery, but we still wanted to be artists. | 0:23:19 | 0:23:24 | |
We were able to create a total new world. It was very exciting. | 0:23:24 | 0:23:28 | |
It was the Living Sculpture that led to the Singing Sculpture going to Germany, | 0:23:28 | 0:23:33 | |
which was an enormous success. It was the first great piece of chance luck that we had. | 0:23:33 | 0:23:39 | |
There was a very famous international touring exhibition, called When Attitudes Become Form, | 0:23:39 | 0:23:45 | |
or Live In Your Head, it was called, as well. | 0:23:45 | 0:23:48 | |
Wherever it went in the world, a curator was asked to add artists from that city to the exhibition. | 0:23:48 | 0:23:55 | |
It was coming to the ICA in London. | 0:23:55 | 0:23:58 | |
We knew the selector and we knew we would be included. | 0:23:58 | 0:24:02 | |
And to our shock and horror, he didn't invite us, we were amazed by that. | 0:24:02 | 0:24:06 | |
We were some of the very few artists who could be included in that show. | 0:24:06 | 0:24:10 | |
We were rather desperate. We were very downcast. | 0:24:10 | 0:24:14 | |
We thought it was a missed opportunity. | 0:24:14 | 0:24:17 | |
We thought that the only thing we could do about it was to be living sculptures, which we are already. | 0:24:17 | 0:24:23 | |
We will take ourselves to the private view and be living sculptures. | 0:24:23 | 0:24:27 | |
We went there, with our hands and heads covered | 0:24:27 | 0:24:30 | |
with multi-coloured, metallised powders. | 0:24:30 | 0:24:32 | |
And we stood stock-still in the middle of the opening. | 0:24:32 | 0:24:35 | |
We stole the show entirely. | 0:24:35 | 0:24:37 | |
At the end of the evening, a young man said, | 0:24:37 | 0:24:40 | |
"I am Konrad Fischer, you will do something for me in Dusseldorf, huh?" | 0:24:40 | 0:24:44 | |
The most famous art dealer of his age, and it was an invitation any artist would die for. | 0:24:44 | 0:24:49 | |
We went to Dusseldorf and did the Singing Sculpture, to enormous success. | 0:24:49 | 0:24:54 | |
It was very strange, it's a completely normal and democratic thing for the general public. | 0:24:54 | 0:25:00 | |
You have sculptures in museums, on plinths. | 0:25:00 | 0:25:03 | |
To see two men moving on a table is not unlike a sculpture. | 0:25:03 | 0:25:09 | |
It's called a Living Sculpture, anyway. | 0:25:09 | 0:25:11 | |
People of all backgrounds and age groups could stand and look at this sculpture for hours on end. | 0:25:11 | 0:25:16 | |
It was an enormous success. | 0:25:16 | 0:25:18 | |
# Underneath the arches | 0:25:18 | 0:25:22 | |
# On cobblestones I lay | 0:25:22 | 0:25:25 | |
# Every night you'll find me | 0:25:25 | 0:25:29 | |
# Tired out and worn... # | 0:25:29 | 0:25:32 | |
Three Dozen Streets, a work from 2003, is particularly significant, I think. | 0:25:40 | 0:25:46 | |
Because it has the names of East London streets. | 0:25:46 | 0:25:49 | |
That has become central to your work. | 0:25:49 | 0:25:51 | |
What took you to East London in the first place? | 0:25:51 | 0:25:54 | |
Was that just chance, luck again? | 0:25:54 | 0:25:56 | |
Just the cheapest place to live. | 0:25:56 | 0:25:59 | |
£12 a month for one floor of any building. | 0:25:59 | 0:26:02 | |
And you could live, work or work or live, didn't matter. | 0:26:02 | 0:26:05 | |
At that time, if you had a bedsit, you wouldn't be allowed to paint or sculpt in it. | 0:26:05 | 0:26:10 | |
If you had a studio, you wouldn't be allowed to stay overnight. | 0:26:10 | 0:26:13 | |
In these buildings, you could do both, very cheap. | 0:26:13 | 0:26:16 | |
Based on accident, we like that, whatever happens happens, | 0:26:16 | 0:26:20 | |
sometimes bad accidents turn out to be extraordinarily good ones. | 0:26:20 | 0:26:23 | |
That's what we like very much. | 0:26:25 | 0:26:27 | |
It became the centre of the universe, anyway. | 0:26:27 | 0:26:30 | |
If you get on an aeroplane or a train, sit in a restaurant anywhere in the world, | 0:26:30 | 0:26:34 | |
within three or four minutes, somebody says, "Brick Lane". It's quite extraordinary. | 0:26:34 | 0:26:40 | |
I really believe that George is the only English person in Spitalfields! | 0:26:40 | 0:26:45 | |
Were you regarded at that time as eccentric? Did you stand out there at all? | 0:26:47 | 0:26:54 | |
We have always been the favourites of the Cockney people. | 0:26:54 | 0:26:58 | |
They are very proud that somebody lives there. | 0:26:58 | 0:27:01 | |
We are not born Cockneys. | 0:27:01 | 0:27:04 | |
But we are settled in what they feel is the East End. They are very proud of us, in fact. | 0:27:04 | 0:27:08 | |
Even the Bangladeshis are quite proud of us. We feel we are honorary Cockneys, | 0:27:08 | 0:27:13 | |
honorary Bangladeshis, honorary Muslims, honorary Alevi Kurds now. We're close to the Alevi people. | 0:27:13 | 0:27:20 | |
We don't believe that eccentric means homophobic in some way. | 0:27:20 | 0:27:24 | |
No, I wondered about that, because you were two men living together. | 0:27:24 | 0:27:28 | |
The odd couple and all of this. | 0:27:28 | 0:27:30 | |
It is still going on, non-stop, this "eccentric". What do you mean? | 0:27:30 | 0:27:35 | |
It can mean anything, it can mean the way you dress. | 0:27:36 | 0:27:40 | |
We know roughly what it means, yes. | 0:27:40 | 0:27:42 | |
Were you aware of homophobia at that stage in the East End? | 0:27:42 | 0:27:47 | |
Of course. It is endemic to this day. Now it's only amongst the educated people, isn't it? | 0:27:47 | 0:27:52 | |
Ordinary people are much more liberal now than ever before. | 0:27:52 | 0:27:56 | |
Other artists, as they have become rich or famous, Antony Gormley, | 0:27:56 | 0:28:00 | |
Damien Hirst, they have bought huge houses in the country. | 0:28:00 | 0:28:03 | |
Have you ever been tempted to go? | 0:28:03 | 0:28:08 | |
No. We have everything that we want. | 0:28:08 | 0:28:11 | |
We are not that normal! | 0:28:11 | 0:28:13 | |
But you have never left the area? | 0:28:19 | 0:28:22 | |
No, we don't want anything. | 0:28:22 | 0:28:23 | |
It's very simple. We bought a house in 1973 | 0:28:23 | 0:28:27 | |
that we did up ourselves, day and night, for five or six years. | 0:28:27 | 0:28:31 | |
We restored it. We were the first ones to restore one of those houses in the East End of London. | 0:28:31 | 0:28:36 | |
Normally, they were used as factories for Jewish immigrants, at that time. | 0:28:36 | 0:28:44 | |
They were making buttons, making fur coats and they were tailors. | 0:28:44 | 0:28:48 | |
We were the first ones to take it back to a private house, in some way. | 0:28:48 | 0:28:53 | |
We never wanted other properties, or holiday homes, cars or yachts. | 0:28:53 | 0:28:59 | |
We live very, very simply, extremely simple. | 0:28:59 | 0:29:01 | |
What we like most is our 45 minutes - or George, two hours - walk in the evening. | 0:29:01 | 0:29:06 | |
That's fantastic. | 0:29:06 | 0:29:08 | |
I'd never want to go and see another city. | 0:29:08 | 0:29:11 | |
Everything is in the brain. | 0:29:11 | 0:29:13 | |
We don't need to see beautiful mountains, beautiful villages, | 0:29:13 | 0:29:17 | |
we don't have to be inspired by the pyramids of Egypt. | 0:29:17 | 0:29:22 | |
Because, for us, it's all in the brain, inside. | 0:29:22 | 0:29:25 | |
# Bend it, bend it, just a little bit | 0:29:25 | 0:29:30 | |
# And take it easy, show you're liking it | 0:29:30 | 0:29:35 | |
# And lover, you know that we're gonna hit | 0:29:35 | 0:29:38 | |
# The heights, cos I'm sure that we're made to fit | 0:29:38 | 0:29:42 | |
# Together, just like pieces of a | 0:29:42 | 0:29:45 | |
# Jigsaw puzzle, what's the hustle... # | 0:29:45 | 0:29:49 | |
When we look back at your art now, it's clear in retrospect, | 0:29:49 | 0:29:52 | |
at least to me, you were constantly questioning what could be called sculptures. | 0:29:52 | 0:29:56 | |
So you bring in performance art, in some of those early works, | 0:29:56 | 0:29:59 | |
you're using charcoal... other people would say were drawings, later on, paint comes in. | 0:29:59 | 0:30:06 | |
Was that a conscious...? | 0:30:06 | 0:30:07 | |
It's one of the things that annoyed the head of sculpture. Was that a | 0:30:07 | 0:30:11 | |
conscious decision you were going to question what sculpture was? | 0:30:11 | 0:30:16 | |
We called everything sculpture in the beginning just because we had been sculpture students. | 0:30:16 | 0:30:19 | |
We abandoned that when we realised it wasn't so democratic, it was a | 0:30:19 | 0:30:23 | |
little confusing for the vast general public. | 0:30:23 | 0:30:25 | |
The art world liked that. | 0:30:25 | 0:30:27 | |
We said charcoal on paper sculptures rather than drawings. | 0:30:27 | 0:30:31 | |
All the paintings was a sculpture not six triptychs. | 0:30:31 | 0:30:35 | |
But I think we were trying to find our form and | 0:30:35 | 0:30:37 | |
we realised the negative image when you press the button on a camera is the most important thing. | 0:30:37 | 0:30:44 | |
Because if a person goes to a museum | 0:30:44 | 0:30:46 | |
and sees a marble naked figure and a bronze naked figure, | 0:30:46 | 0:30:50 | |
and then an oil painting naked figure, they won't bat an eyelid. | 0:30:50 | 0:30:53 | |
The tribal African naked sculptures, all fine until you see a full-sized | 0:30:53 | 0:30:58 | |
naked figure taken with the camera and then you are in trouble. | 0:30:58 | 0:31:01 | |
Because it means more, it's more truthful, more honest. | 0:31:01 | 0:31:05 | |
So we were always working towards that, and all of the charcoal on | 0:31:05 | 0:31:08 | |
paper sculpture done with a photograph and then copied, as other paintings. | 0:31:08 | 0:31:12 | |
But we didn't know how technically to make a large, what became a photo piece, | 0:31:12 | 0:31:17 | |
and now we call them pictures. | 0:31:17 | 0:31:19 | |
We found a way with the negative | 0:31:19 | 0:31:22 | |
I think that for us was more powerful than the photo piece. | 0:31:22 | 0:31:27 | |
For us it became the best language to speak. | 0:31:27 | 0:31:30 | |
Drawings means immediately art. | 0:31:30 | 0:31:33 | |
Painting means old fashioned art. | 0:31:33 | 0:31:38 | |
Even today, art still means oil painting and we tried to get away in speaking in | 0:31:38 | 0:31:44 | |
the modern way. We are very proud we found our own way of speaking. | 0:31:44 | 0:31:50 | |
There's a big exhibition at the moment in London at the Royal Academy of British sculpture. | 0:31:50 | 0:31:56 | |
It struck me ideally you two should be standing in there singing. | 0:31:56 | 0:32:00 | |
We thought they should give us at least the possibility to refuse. | 0:32:00 | 0:32:07 | |
I'm interested in that. Did you feel you perhaps ought to have been in that exhibition? | 0:32:07 | 0:32:12 | |
-I think they should have asked us. -They should have asked, yes. | 0:32:12 | 0:32:15 | |
Because we broke the idea of the sculpture as an object in that way | 0:32:15 | 0:32:21 | |
-that it could be anything. -Anything. It could be sound. | 0:32:21 | 0:32:23 | |
We're very pleased we are not in because it's quite an | 0:32:23 | 0:32:27 | |
horrific mess the exhibition, it seems. | 0:32:27 | 0:32:30 | |
It would also be quite demanding for you to spend four months standing there? | 0:32:30 | 0:32:34 | |
We would show a film of the singing sculpture or postal sculptures, or charcoal on paper sculptures. | 0:32:34 | 0:32:39 | |
Even right up until the Dirty Words pictures there's still sculpture in the wording as it says on the piece. | 0:32:39 | 0:32:44 | |
Even the paintings, with us in nature. | 0:32:44 | 0:32:47 | |
-They are a massive amount - six big triptychs. -A sculpture. | 0:32:47 | 0:32:52 | |
A sculpture. They are six metres each. We just sold it this year to a museum | 0:32:52 | 0:32:56 | |
-that only shows sculpture - The Kroller-Muller. -It still works. | 0:32:56 | 0:33:02 | |
People inevitably look for a division in the work which is how we think, of who did that and who did that? | 0:33:02 | 0:33:07 | |
You most remind me of the Coen brothers, the film directors. | 0:33:07 | 0:33:11 | |
They take the shared credit "produced and directed by Joel and Ethan". | 0:33:11 | 0:33:16 | |
And when they're asked who made that shot and who did that and who produces and who directs, | 0:33:16 | 0:33:22 | |
they say it is a pointless question. | 0:33:22 | 0:33:26 | |
We don't even know. | 0:33:26 | 0:33:28 | |
-How would you know? -For us it is very simple, because we take images. | 0:33:28 | 0:33:32 | |
We both have cameras, nobody knows who took what. | 0:33:32 | 0:33:35 | |
I tell Gilbert what I think and feel and Gilbert tells me what he thinks and feels, so it's one big... | 0:33:35 | 0:33:42 | |
-Soup. -..soup together. | 0:33:42 | 0:33:44 | |
I mentioned the charcoal sculptures and in | 0:33:44 | 0:33:48 | |
about the mid-70s there was a great explosion of colour, particularly red which in fact goes right | 0:33:48 | 0:33:55 | |
-through your career. Again, was that a conscious decision? -Yes. | 0:33:55 | 0:34:00 | |
It was an amazing discovery because we always say that unlike children or artists or amateur painters, we | 0:34:00 | 0:34:07 | |
did not start with a box of colours or a box of crayons or coloured pencils. | 0:34:07 | 0:34:12 | |
-We didn't have any colour, we had black and white. -Black and white. | 0:34:12 | 0:34:16 | |
It took us four years to find red. | 0:34:16 | 0:34:19 | |
Because it felt it was connected with anger, to do with love, | 0:34:19 | 0:34:21 | |
to do with blood, to do with danger, to do with Communism, to do with fear, to do with sunset. | 0:34:21 | 0:34:28 | |
And we felt we could use red in different ways to add to the black and white. | 0:34:28 | 0:34:33 | |
And how long before we found yellow? | 0:34:33 | 0:34:35 | |
I think in 1980 we had these are four or five different colours, blue, yellow and green. | 0:34:35 | 0:34:42 | |
So very, very slow | 0:34:42 | 0:34:45 | |
to find colour. | 0:34:45 | 0:34:46 | |
In fact, because we always said our colours are based on meanings. | 0:34:46 | 0:34:51 | |
Meanings for colour, like we always used to say the yellow had a sophistication and | 0:34:54 | 0:35:01 | |
red is anger and blue is more, I don't know eternity. | 0:35:01 | 0:35:06 | |
One can make difference moods with colours. | 0:35:07 | 0:35:09 | |
Combined with the subject. | 0:35:09 | 0:35:11 | |
Another element that is there from early on is the use of words, | 0:35:11 | 0:35:15 | |
almost a graffiti-like element often the words used in graffiti like the words "fuck" or "cunt" in some cases. | 0:35:15 | 0:35:22 | |
This is what led to the suggestion from some people that you work is shocking. | 0:35:22 | 0:35:28 | |
You must have, you were aware those words were explosive? | 0:35:28 | 0:35:34 | |
They are mostly ones which also appear in the Bible and the Oxford Dictionary by the way. | 0:35:34 | 0:35:38 | |
I think we started with the magazine sculpture | 0:35:38 | 0:35:41 | |
The Shit and The Cunt | 0:35:41 | 0:35:42 | |
as a sort of pre-emptive strike. | 0:35:42 | 0:35:45 | |
It didn't matter what they called | 0:35:45 | 0:35:47 | |
us after that, we'd done it first. | 0:35:47 | 0:35:48 | |
Then we wanted to use the... We felt that the | 0:35:48 | 0:35:52 | |
city we were trying to show was a sort of rude word and an angry shout and things. | 0:35:52 | 0:35:58 | |
So we went around and took "fuck", "shit", "lick", "dick". | 0:35:58 | 0:36:01 | |
We thought it was an extraordinary discovery. | 0:36:01 | 0:36:03 | |
They're still are amazing these pictures. Communism, Smash The Reds. | 0:36:03 | 0:36:07 | |
It was a kind of abusiveness that we found on the walls that we felt was more real than a | 0:36:07 | 0:36:13 | |
nice piece of writing. | 0:36:13 | 0:36:16 | |
It became this more aggressive, more real and told an extraordinary story | 0:36:16 | 0:36:22 | |
of 1977, 78 when we started to do the first graffiti one. | 0:36:22 | 0:36:27 | |
It was real at that time, probably more real than all the newspapers. | 0:36:27 | 0:36:31 | |
Simple version of aggression. | 0:36:31 | 0:36:34 | |
And we always liked that, we always liked the writing behind the door. | 0:36:34 | 0:36:40 | |
We are still keeping that up in some way. | 0:36:40 | 0:36:43 | |
We always felt it must be very close to the active creativity, what | 0:36:43 | 0:36:47 | |
drives a person to go out and write "fuck" on the wall? | 0:36:47 | 0:36:51 | |
Not everyone does - very, very few people. | 0:36:51 | 0:36:54 | |
The driving force that makes a person do that is very close to the | 0:36:54 | 0:36:57 | |
force that would make somebody write a poem or paint a picture. | 0:36:57 | 0:37:00 | |
We don't swear ourselves. | 0:37:00 | 0:37:03 | |
Although one is seen as destructive and one as seen as creative generally? | 0:37:03 | 0:37:07 | |
Yes, but we realised at that time that that was coming to an end, that kind of anger. | 0:37:07 | 0:37:12 | |
And it did come to an end. | 0:37:12 | 0:37:14 | |
No one writes that on the walls any more. | 0:37:14 | 0:37:16 | |
Writing on walls or saying something on walls is a sophisticated, elaborate thing. | 0:37:16 | 0:37:20 | |
Although there is a lot of anger still? | 0:37:20 | 0:37:23 | |
Not in that way. Nobody writes "prick", "arse" | 0:37:23 | 0:37:26 | |
on the wall anymore. It's all gone. | 0:37:26 | 0:37:28 | |
You said you don't swear yourselves? | 0:37:28 | 0:37:31 | |
-No. -Of course not. We're very normal. | 0:37:31 | 0:37:34 | |
We mentioned several times the reaction, the shocked reaction of some newspapers and some people. | 0:37:36 | 0:37:43 | |
Have you ever felt in retrospect you went too far? | 0:37:43 | 0:37:46 | |
-Is there anything you ever regretted? -Not one second. -No. | 0:37:46 | 0:37:49 | |
We know the line we want to go up to, whether we are showing in China or London or New York. | 0:37:49 | 0:37:55 | |
We know exactly that line. | 0:37:55 | 0:37:56 | |
We don't want to offend any single person in that way. | 0:37:56 | 0:38:00 | |
We don't want to aggress the viewer. | 0:38:00 | 0:38:03 | |
We don't want to say, "Look at this, you do agree with it, if not you're stupid". | 0:38:03 | 0:38:07 | |
A lot of artists do that. We don't do that. | 0:38:07 | 0:38:10 | |
Art has to be visually different. If not it's like everything else. | 0:38:10 | 0:38:18 | |
-It has to be different. -We want to grab the person. | 0:38:18 | 0:38:21 | |
We grab the attention of the person in front of it. | 0:38:21 | 0:38:24 | |
Our motto is, when they see a show of ours, they have to be able to remember that show for ever | 0:38:24 | 0:38:32 | |
or that picture for ever. | 0:38:32 | 0:38:34 | |
That is why we simplify it... | 0:38:34 | 0:38:36 | |
..like a stencil that speaks. | 0:38:37 | 0:38:41 | |
When the word "Paki" appeared in one of the paintings, | 0:38:41 | 0:38:44 | |
to me you weren't endorsing that word, | 0:38:44 | 0:38:47 | |
it is a word that is used offensively and you were reflecting that. | 0:38:47 | 0:38:53 | |
But that did concern some viewers of it? | 0:38:53 | 0:38:58 | |
Yes, it's the same educated group who | 0:38:58 | 0:39:01 | |
would be against us using the Union Jack or using an image of a soldier. | 0:39:01 | 0:39:05 | |
There is nothing wrong with the word "Paki", it is the same as "Aussie" or "Brit". | 0:39:05 | 0:39:09 | |
There is, if it's used derogatively. | 0:39:09 | 0:39:13 | |
If you say "Paki bastard", yes then it's offensive. But if you say "Paki", it's not. | 0:39:13 | 0:39:18 | |
But it's used to denigrate a particular... | 0:39:18 | 0:39:22 | |
We don't agree it should be offensive. It is an abbreviation of a word isn't it? | 0:39:22 | 0:39:27 | |
It came from Scotland. | 0:39:27 | 0:39:29 | |
But it is a term with a negative racial history. | 0:39:29 | 0:39:34 | |
-It became negative. -We think that's sad and we should like to rob that back, steal it back. | 0:39:34 | 0:39:38 | |
You were reclaiming it? | 0:39:38 | 0:39:40 | |
Absolutely, rather like when we did the picture Queer. | 0:39:40 | 0:39:43 | |
A lot of gay people | 0:39:43 | 0:39:45 | |
were up in arms about that. | 0:39:45 | 0:39:47 | |
Two years later they were having "Queer" and "Fuck" on their T-shirts | 0:39:47 | 0:39:50 | |
and dancing the night away. | 0:39:50 | 0:39:51 | |
The word "queer" was then reclaimed I think. | 0:39:51 | 0:39:54 | |
Yeah. There's nothing wrong inherently with the word "Paki". | 0:39:54 | 0:39:57 | |
-Absolutely not. -It is not dero... | 0:39:57 | 0:39:58 | |
It's just an abbreviation of a word. | 0:39:58 | 0:40:01 | |
They made it into something that it actually was not. | 0:40:01 | 0:40:05 | |
There were six Indo-Pak clubs for single men in our district at that time. | 0:40:05 | 0:40:09 | |
They've gone now because their families came over. | 0:40:09 | 0:40:12 | |
-But... -I think it can be an endowment as well. | 0:40:12 | 0:40:15 | |
But by using that term in a painting, | 0:40:15 | 0:40:18 | |
a picture, to some people it is endorsing it, saying this word is... | 0:40:18 | 0:40:24 | |
For some people, yes. I agree with that. | 0:40:24 | 0:40:27 | |
If it makes people think about racism, which it did, it's very good, I think. | 0:40:27 | 0:40:30 | |
It brings things out from inside of people that they otherwise wouldn't think. | 0:40:30 | 0:40:34 | |
They won't talk about racism or Pakistani people going to see | 0:40:34 | 0:40:38 | |
all these silly abstract art exhibitions, will they? | 0:40:38 | 0:40:41 | |
It's rather good. | 0:40:41 | 0:40:43 | |
No, but some of your critics were accusing you of being racist. | 0:40:43 | 0:40:46 | |
Yeah, but we don't believe in the critics. | 0:40:46 | 0:40:47 | |
Did that make you uncomfortable? | 0:40:47 | 0:40:49 | |
Yes, it did but we don't | 0:40:49 | 0:40:52 | |
believe that we did something wrong. | 0:40:52 | 0:40:54 | |
-Subsequently you never thought, "We need to be more careful"? -No. | 0:40:54 | 0:40:59 | |
I wouldn't think that. | 0:40:59 | 0:41:01 | |
I think we naturally have an idea of the line up to which we want to go. | 0:41:01 | 0:41:07 | |
One of those lines for some people was the use of bodily substances of various kinds. | 0:41:07 | 0:41:14 | |
Semen, blood, faeces, | 0:41:14 | 0:41:15 | |
some more controversial than others. | 0:41:15 | 0:41:18 | |
Were you aware of taking on a taboo when you did that? | 0:41:18 | 0:41:23 | |
Yes, we were aware. It was even difficult for us. | 0:41:23 | 0:41:26 | |
But at the same time, you can go into a library and find all this stuff in many, many books. | 0:41:26 | 0:41:32 | |
I think we did an extraordinary experiment | 0:41:32 | 0:41:35 | |
with that. We found out about even DNA before people commonly thought about that. | 0:41:35 | 0:41:41 | |
They can take one little bit of fingernail and tell all about you and your family forever. | 0:41:41 | 0:41:46 | |
I think the Shit, Blood, Piss and the Tears has something of that in it as well. | 0:41:46 | 0:41:51 | |
Indeed all the substances you use have been used in forensic science. | 0:41:51 | 0:41:55 | |
-Oh, yes. -Yes. -In order to identify people. | 0:41:55 | 0:41:59 | |
Sometimes we feel we're scraping the streets of London with our fingernails, then seeing what's | 0:41:59 | 0:42:04 | |
inside them in the studio, underneath. | 0:42:04 | 0:42:06 | |
But we like very much that visual effect because they create an amazing visual effect. | 0:42:06 | 0:42:11 | |
There were flowers in piss, | 0:42:11 | 0:42:12 | |
there are daggers in sweat, | 0:42:12 | 0:42:14 | |
we think it's very exciting. | 0:42:14 | 0:42:16 | |
There's a quote from 1997 which touches on this I think. "We wanted to do art to | 0:42:18 | 0:42:24 | |
"be embarrassed, art that embarrasses ourselves, I think we still do that. | 0:42:24 | 0:42:28 | |
"We are very embarrassed sometimes of what we're doing, | 0:42:28 | 0:42:31 | |
"and that's a good feeling. When it hurts, then it's true for us". | 0:42:31 | 0:42:34 | |
We believe in that, yes. | 0:42:34 | 0:42:37 | |
We still... Every show is that. | 0:42:37 | 0:42:38 | |
As we make the pictures we always know we have a feeling of... | 0:42:38 | 0:42:43 | |
That's what we call creativity, really. | 0:42:43 | 0:42:46 | |
The only thing we can compare it with is when one's deeply attracted | 0:42:46 | 0:42:50 | |
to a new person, that everything else is different, not just that person. | 0:42:50 | 0:42:55 | |
The house and the garden, the air, the atmosphere, everything is exalted because of that feeling. | 0:42:55 | 0:43:03 | |
When we're in the studio creating, it's like that. We're on another plane really. | 0:43:03 | 0:43:06 | |
It is embarrassing. It is difficult. You would like to run away from it. | 0:43:06 | 0:43:13 | |
-And it's exciting. -And it's exciting because it is that edge. | 0:43:13 | 0:43:16 | |
It must be like being on the front. | 0:43:16 | 0:43:18 | |
It is all exciting and nervous-making and at the same time... | 0:43:18 | 0:43:23 | |
-It's a thrill. -..That's the best thing you can do in art. | 0:43:23 | 0:43:27 | |
If not, you just do boring art. It doesn't mean anything. | 0:43:27 | 0:43:30 | |
We know about that. | 0:43:30 | 0:43:32 | |
We have been anti-elitist from the day we left St Martin's. | 0:43:32 | 0:43:35 | |
Whilst we were at St Martin's, we were already... | 0:43:35 | 0:43:37 | |
We never wanted to do art for the few. | 0:43:39 | 0:43:41 | |
We knew that if you took the sculptures that people were making at St Martin's outside | 0:43:43 | 0:43:47 | |
onto the Charing Cross Road, they would lose all value immediately, no-one would notice them. | 0:43:47 | 0:43:53 | |
We wanted to make an art that meant something to every single person, wherever they lived in the world. | 0:43:53 | 0:43:58 | |
They'd look at that picture and it would speak to them in some way. | 0:43:58 | 0:44:01 | |
Not just London, Paris, New York, three over-educated arty twits. | 0:44:01 | 0:44:07 | |
Art for all. We always said art for all. | 0:44:07 | 0:44:09 | |
But that question of being embarrassed, so in the | 0:44:09 | 0:44:11 | |
pictures, for example, where you're | 0:44:11 | 0:44:14 | |
both standing naked in various poses, | 0:44:14 | 0:44:18 | |
did you ever formally discuss that? | 0:44:18 | 0:44:20 | |
"We are going to use ourselves in this way." | 0:44:20 | 0:44:22 | |
Yes, it came from using other people, probably. | 0:44:22 | 0:44:26 | |
We had other people naked in the pictures and then the next stage is us. | 0:44:26 | 0:44:30 | |
Was it, as they say in movies, a closed set? | 0:44:30 | 0:44:33 | |
You were just naked with each other? | 0:44:33 | 0:44:35 | |
Yeah, we take photographs of each other and together with a cable as well. | 0:44:35 | 0:44:41 | |
A timing device. | 0:44:41 | 0:44:44 | |
The only interesting thing is that it is known naked. | 0:44:44 | 0:44:48 | |
Anonymous naked means nothing. | 0:44:48 | 0:44:50 | |
All the magazines are full of that. | 0:44:50 | 0:44:52 | |
It's only if they have a photograph of the Queen | 0:44:52 | 0:44:55 | |
and the Duke of Edinburgh naked will the world beat a path to it. | 0:44:55 | 0:44:58 | |
If not, it doesn't mean anything. They all run naked through the woods. | 0:44:58 | 0:45:01 | |
Known naked is the key. | 0:45:01 | 0:45:03 | |
All these artists who have thousands of people naked, means nothing. | 0:45:03 | 0:45:06 | |
Do you ever think, what will people make of this lot? | 0:45:06 | 0:45:10 | |
-We want to be loved, that's very important. -We all want to be loved! -That's very important. | 0:45:10 | 0:45:16 | |
That's why we always have to do the next pictures. Maybe the next time they will love us, that's it. | 0:45:16 | 0:45:21 | |
We know we have fans out there who will love the pictures, | 0:45:21 | 0:45:25 | |
and we know that two or three people will be against them. | 0:45:25 | 0:45:28 | |
It has to be pulled against but in general, we have to be | 0:45:28 | 0:45:32 | |
able to do what we want and continue doing what we want | 0:45:32 | 0:45:36 | |
because time changes everything that we realise. | 0:45:36 | 0:45:40 | |
Time changes the artwork. | 0:45:40 | 0:45:44 | |
The best example is the Dirty Words Pictures which we created in 1977. | 0:45:44 | 0:45:49 | |
Most of our friends and supporters at that time thought that we'd gone over the top. | 0:45:49 | 0:45:55 | |
Getting a bit silly, you know? You don't need to make pictures with "prick", "arse", "cunt", "dick" in. | 0:45:55 | 0:46:01 | |
A bit too much, they felt. | 0:46:01 | 0:46:03 | |
27 years later, we showed them all together for the first time in the | 0:46:03 | 0:46:06 | |
Serpentine Gallery and some of those | 0:46:06 | 0:46:08 | |
same people were around | 0:46:08 | 0:46:09 | |
and came to the opening, | 0:46:09 | 0:46:11 | |
admiring the pictures. | 0:46:11 | 0:46:12 | |
We said, "Don't you remember in 1977 you said...?" | 0:46:12 | 0:46:15 | |
"Oh, no, we've always loved them." | 0:46:15 | 0:46:19 | |
The pictures had stayed the same, but the world had changed. | 0:46:19 | 0:46:22 | |
The world accommodated the dirty words. | 0:46:22 | 0:46:25 | |
The world is changing, very, very slow. | 0:46:25 | 0:46:27 | |
We don't even realise how slow it changes. But it is changing. | 0:46:27 | 0:46:31 | |
And we're all part of that. You're part of it as well. | 0:46:31 | 0:46:33 | |
You talked about being on the outside of the art world | 0:46:33 | 0:46:37 | |
but also politically, that's the case because you have spoken in the past | 0:46:37 | 0:46:42 | |
of being, if not Thatcherite, | 0:46:42 | 0:46:44 | |
then at least admirers of Margaret Thatcher, which was unusual. | 0:46:44 | 0:46:48 | |
-We still are. -Of course. What do you think we are, weird? | 0:46:48 | 0:46:51 | |
It was seen as weird in the liberal arts world. | 0:46:51 | 0:46:54 | |
It's the most normal thing to vote, conservatism. | 0:46:54 | 0:46:56 | |
More people voted Conservative than anybody else. | 0:46:56 | 0:46:59 | |
I think more people voted Conservative in England than Labour. | 0:46:59 | 0:47:02 | |
And it's very simple because... | 0:47:02 | 0:47:05 | |
What do you call? Labour is part of collectivism. | 0:47:05 | 0:47:08 | |
We are for the freedom of the individual. | 0:47:08 | 0:47:11 | |
That everybody is different. | 0:47:11 | 0:47:14 | |
That's what we believe. | 0:47:14 | 0:47:16 | |
We are not all the same. That's it. | 0:47:16 | 0:47:19 | |
-You were Thatcherite, are you Cameroons now? -Absolutely! Absolutely. | 0:47:19 | 0:47:27 | |
But less and less. We actually don't need politics ourselves. | 0:47:27 | 0:47:33 | |
I never voted in my entire life. | 0:47:33 | 0:47:35 | |
-You've never voted? -Never voted, ever. | 0:47:35 | 0:47:38 | |
You sound surprised! | 0:47:38 | 0:47:41 | |
We don't need anything. It's extraordinary. | 0:47:41 | 0:47:45 | |
We always think that art and culture is in advance of politics. | 0:47:45 | 0:47:48 | |
Because people vote culturally. | 0:47:48 | 0:47:50 | |
You will probably vote depending on what books your parents | 0:47:50 | 0:47:53 | |
did or did not read, what music your mother did or did not listen to. | 0:47:53 | 0:47:57 | |
So in fact we're there to lead the way, to form the kind of people that will make the right kind of vote. | 0:47:57 | 0:48:03 | |
I think more and more we believe anyway the whole country | 0:48:03 | 0:48:06 | |
should just be organised by a very good company, to sort it all out. | 0:48:06 | 0:48:10 | |
Privatise Westminster. We always voted for that suggestion. | 0:48:10 | 0:48:13 | |
To make it everybody without, what do you call... | 0:48:13 | 0:48:16 | |
After all, it's only to sort out a way of living, you know? | 0:48:16 | 0:48:20 | |
That everybody has a certain... That everybody can survive in some way. | 0:48:20 | 0:48:25 | |
It's based on surviving, in some way. | 0:48:25 | 0:48:28 | |
Do you vote, George? | 0:48:28 | 0:48:30 | |
-Of course. -And always Tory? | 0:48:30 | 0:48:32 | |
Yes, I'm loyal. | 0:48:32 | 0:48:34 | |
Loyal, loyal to the party. | 0:48:34 | 0:48:37 | |
We're just champagne Conservatives. | 0:48:37 | 0:48:39 | |
MARK LAWSON LAUGHS | 0:48:39 | 0:48:41 | |
Although there is a paradox, which you must have reflected on clearly, which is that many of the people who | 0:48:42 | 0:48:48 | |
have opposed your art have been Conservatives? | 0:48:48 | 0:48:51 | |
-Generally speaking, they're left wing. -That's interesting. | 0:48:51 | 0:48:54 | |
The enemy, generally speaking. | 0:48:54 | 0:48:56 | |
The most hostility came from the left, yeah. | 0:48:56 | 0:49:00 | |
-1980. -Ordinary conservative people are not against artists or anything like that. | 0:49:00 | 0:49:05 | |
Because they don't know about art. | 0:49:05 | 0:49:07 | |
Very few know about art. | 0:49:07 | 0:49:09 | |
But if I organised a coach trip from the Tunbridge Wells Conservative | 0:49:09 | 0:49:13 | |
Party Society to many of your shows over the years... | 0:49:13 | 0:49:17 | |
-Fine group of people! -Yes, but there would be a substantial degree of shock from a number of those. | 0:49:17 | 0:49:22 | |
-I don't care about that. -The Dirty Words Pictures, there would be... | 0:49:22 | 0:49:27 | |
There is a moralistic side, you're quite right that it's on | 0:49:27 | 0:49:30 | |
-the left, there is a moralistic streak on the right. -Yes. Yes. | 0:49:30 | 0:49:35 | |
I mean, we don't ask exactly what everybody thinks. | 0:49:36 | 0:49:41 | |
Why should we do that? That's like every writer now. | 0:49:41 | 0:49:44 | |
You have to be true to yourself and do whatever you think is right for you. | 0:49:44 | 0:49:49 | |
It was our late friend Daniel Farson, who tackled | 0:49:49 | 0:49:51 | |
Mrs Thatcher, saying is it true that she had a strong dislike of contemporary art? | 0:49:51 | 0:49:55 | |
She poked him in the chest and said, "With modern art, you have to look, look and look again." | 0:49:55 | 0:50:00 | |
-That's not bad, is it? -Not bad at all. | 0:50:00 | 0:50:03 | |
Have you been invited to Chequers by any of these Conservative prime ministers? | 0:50:03 | 0:50:07 | |
-No. -We've never been. We have been invited once. | 0:50:07 | 0:50:10 | |
-By Edward Heath. -Oh yes. | 0:50:10 | 0:50:11 | |
-With Lord Salisbury. -For lunch. | 0:50:11 | 0:50:14 | |
For lunch. We met him in China when we had a big show, in 93. | 0:50:14 | 0:50:18 | |
That was very good. We said we wanted to... | 0:50:18 | 0:50:21 | |
We wanted to penetrate the viewer. | 0:50:21 | 0:50:24 | |
He said, "I've been trying to penetrate the British public for years!" | 0:50:24 | 0:50:28 | |
He was familiar with your art? | 0:50:31 | 0:50:33 | |
-I don't know about that, but he wanted to be supportive. -Yeah. | 0:50:33 | 0:50:36 | |
We don't ask so many questions ourselves. | 0:50:36 | 0:50:39 | |
-We are outsiders. -Do you still see yourselves as outsiders? | 0:50:39 | 0:50:43 | |
You have had a huge retrospective at the Tate, bigger than any other living artist. | 0:50:43 | 0:50:49 | |
You can't still be outsiders? | 0:50:49 | 0:50:51 | |
We are. | 0:50:51 | 0:50:53 | |
We were only insiders for three months. | 0:50:53 | 0:50:55 | |
They never hanged a picture since. | 0:50:55 | 0:50:59 | |
-Do they had anything in the permanent collection? -Not that we know of. -No. | 0:50:59 | 0:51:03 | |
They have a very big collection of our art, 20 or 30 pieces. | 0:51:03 | 0:51:08 | |
But not on display? | 0:51:08 | 0:51:09 | |
No. We don't fit in. | 0:51:09 | 0:51:11 | |
-Does that irritate you? -Yes. -It surprises visitors. | 0:51:11 | 0:51:15 | |
People stop us on the street from France or Japan, | 0:51:15 | 0:51:17 | |
they say they've just come from the Tate Modern and there's not a picture of yours there. | 0:51:17 | 0:51:21 | |
Extraordinary. They expect to see one or more. We think it's wrong. | 0:51:21 | 0:51:25 | |
-Have you objected to them, have you written? -No. | 0:51:26 | 0:51:30 | |
-We never write. -They know that they should do that. -They know our views. | 0:51:30 | 0:51:34 | |
You don't take much interest in the modern art world? | 0:51:34 | 0:51:39 | |
Damien, Tracey, all of these people? | 0:51:39 | 0:51:41 | |
We know them, they are around us. | 0:51:41 | 0:51:43 | |
They are on our street. | 0:51:43 | 0:51:45 | |
But we don't want to, | 0:51:45 | 0:51:47 | |
what you call, pollute our brains with other people's art. | 0:51:47 | 0:51:53 | |
But you know what Tracey Emin does, for example? | 0:51:53 | 0:51:55 | |
We know what everybody does because of the post you get - 50 invitation cards with 50 images every day. | 0:51:55 | 0:52:01 | |
-Unavoidable. -But we have a very good shredder! | 0:52:01 | 0:52:03 | |
Do you take a close interest in how much the work sells for and who owns it? | 0:52:06 | 0:52:12 | |
We always were the artists who didn't concentrate on upping the price all the time. | 0:52:12 | 0:52:18 | |
We can't have silly prices. | 0:52:18 | 0:52:19 | |
We try to keep it down in a way, wouldn't you say? | 0:52:19 | 0:52:23 | |
Yes, but we have never been involved in... | 0:52:23 | 0:52:25 | |
We never ask who bought it because many times it is very embarrassing | 0:52:25 | 0:52:30 | |
and very disappointing, so we don't want to know. | 0:52:30 | 0:52:33 | |
Because after all, modern art is for the rich. | 0:52:33 | 0:52:38 | |
And museums, but they have to borrow the money or be given the money to buy them. | 0:52:38 | 0:52:44 | |
Seeing an artwork of us is very difficult. | 0:52:44 | 0:52:48 | |
Because a lot of museums think it is too extreme, a lot of private collectors... | 0:52:48 | 0:52:53 | |
We always feel that 70, 85% of collectors | 0:52:53 | 0:52:55 | |
would not touch us because they are disturbed, they say, by our art. | 0:52:55 | 0:53:02 | |
It's a very limited amount of people who actually are our collectors. | 0:53:02 | 0:53:06 | |
That's why we are fascinated by books - that we can | 0:53:06 | 0:53:09 | |
subsidise and create books and everybody can buy books in a cheap way. | 0:53:09 | 0:53:15 | |
A lot of people who stop us on the street love our art and we say, where did you see it? | 0:53:15 | 0:53:19 | |
They say, in a catalogue in a friend's house. | 0:53:19 | 0:53:22 | |
The most ordinary place. You can buy a catalogue, you can steal it, you can lend it, you can give it. | 0:53:22 | 0:53:28 | |
24 hours, every day of the year. | 0:53:28 | 0:53:30 | |
Extraordinary form, books and catalogues. | 0:53:30 | 0:53:32 | |
Although art is very expensive and for the rich, the fact remains that there | 0:53:32 | 0:53:37 | |
are tens of millions of postcards of art works by Van Gogh and so on. | 0:53:37 | 0:53:41 | |
Exhibitions are largely free or inexpensive. | 0:53:41 | 0:53:44 | |
We would never want to know what | 0:53:46 | 0:53:50 | |
the price of our art is. | 0:53:50 | 0:53:52 | |
We make our price of the new works. | 0:53:52 | 0:53:55 | |
The rest we don't know. We don't care too much. | 0:53:55 | 0:53:58 | |
-Because you can't control it later on? -No you cannot. -They are sold on? | 0:53:58 | 0:54:01 | |
The secondary market is the secondary market. | 0:54:01 | 0:54:04 | |
In the last 20 years or so, on that secondary market, | 0:54:04 | 0:54:06 | |
-eye-watering sums, as you know, modern art has been going for. -Yeah. Horrific. | 0:54:06 | 0:54:12 | |
Don't like it. I think it is much too much. | 0:54:12 | 0:54:15 | |
It's...horrific. | 0:54:15 | 0:54:18 | |
It is cheaper to buy something from 1650, it seems. | 0:54:18 | 0:54:21 | |
Extraordinary. | 0:54:21 | 0:54:22 | |
That is why we prefer big shows, instead of that. | 0:54:22 | 0:54:29 | |
Have you ever considered the possibility of retirement, or will you simply carry on? | 0:54:29 | 0:54:34 | |
Artists never retire. | 0:54:34 | 0:54:36 | |
It's unthinkable. | 0:54:36 | 0:54:38 | |
It's very good because we have made ourselves more active now, with new technology. | 0:54:38 | 0:54:43 | |
Normally, we had to go up ladders, in the studio. | 0:54:43 | 0:54:47 | |
We don't even have to do that now. | 0:54:47 | 0:54:49 | |
In front of you, on the television, | 0:54:49 | 0:54:51 | |
the screen, the computer, it is like an extension of our brain. | 0:54:51 | 0:54:56 | |
You can do it directly into it. | 0:54:56 | 0:54:59 | |
For us, it is a fantastic technology. | 0:54:59 | 0:55:03 | |
You must have thought about this over the years. | 0:55:03 | 0:55:06 | |
If one of you became incapacitated, or were unavailable... | 0:55:06 | 0:55:10 | |
We are both incapacitated! | 0:55:10 | 0:55:11 | |
If one of you was not able to keep going? | 0:55:13 | 0:55:15 | |
We had that usual joke. Remember, George. | 0:55:15 | 0:55:19 | |
-Which one? -The street. -Oh, that was just if you were no longer here. | 0:55:19 | 0:55:22 | |
This is just if you become ill or something. | 0:55:22 | 0:55:25 | |
We can do the one if one of you is no longer here. | 0:55:25 | 0:55:27 | |
You must have talked about that as well. Would the other carry on? | 0:55:27 | 0:55:31 | |
We can find a replacement. | 0:55:31 | 0:55:33 | |
-Why not? -We already have one. | 0:55:33 | 0:55:35 | |
Our assistant, he dresses up like us already. | 0:55:35 | 0:55:39 | |
They always ask this question in Germany. | 0:55:39 | 0:55:42 | |
It's a German question. What happens when one of you dies? | 0:55:44 | 0:55:47 | |
And what do you say in Germany? | 0:55:47 | 0:55:49 | |
We always say, "Do you mean if one of us falls under a bus? | 0:55:49 | 0:55:53 | |
"Fear not, we always cross the road together!" | 0:55:53 | 0:55:57 | |
Imagine 100 years on, a book called British Art Of The 20th And 21st Centuries. | 0:56:00 | 0:56:06 | |
We turn to the entry on Gilbert and George. What would you like it to say? | 0:56:06 | 0:56:11 | |
First, we would be on the cover. | 0:56:11 | 0:56:13 | |
We are setting up our own foundation. | 0:56:13 | 0:56:18 | |
All of what we have is going to be there, like a little nest left over | 0:56:18 | 0:56:24 | |
with all our collections, all our books, we have thousands of books, all our designs and pictures. | 0:56:24 | 0:56:31 | |
All our negatives. | 0:56:31 | 0:56:35 | |
And a lot of pictures as well. Everything is going to be there for a while. | 0:56:35 | 0:56:39 | |
At the moment we are trying to raise money to... | 0:56:39 | 0:56:42 | |
Nothing happens until we are not here. | 0:56:42 | 0:56:45 | |
But our legacy will be intact. | 0:56:45 | 0:56:49 | |
Not in a big way. In a small way, in our houses, in Spitalfields. | 0:56:49 | 0:56:54 | |
It would become a museum, you hope? | 0:56:54 | 0:56:56 | |
-Yes. -A Gilbert and George centre, it's called. | 0:56:56 | 0:57:00 | |
A little bit like the Soane's Museum or something. | 0:57:00 | 0:57:02 | |
Do you care about what people think when you are gone? | 0:57:02 | 0:57:05 | |
We are not in charge of that. | 0:57:07 | 0:57:09 | |
We try not to have opinions about things we cannot affect. | 0:57:09 | 0:57:13 | |
It is one of our main rules. | 0:57:13 | 0:57:15 | |
Because in some way, we are control freaks. | 0:57:15 | 0:57:19 | |
If not invitation cards, the publicity, the design of the exhibition, | 0:57:19 | 0:57:23 | |
is all done by us in advance. | 0:57:23 | 0:57:25 | |
But all art is an attempt at some kind of immortality, isn't it? | 0:57:25 | 0:57:31 | |
-Oh yes. -We believe in that. | 0:57:31 | 0:57:34 | |
We think it's extraordinary that you just say "Charles Dickens" - | 0:57:34 | 0:57:38 | |
whether you have read a book or not, something fills your head. | 0:57:38 | 0:57:42 | |
That is the man speaking from the grave. | 0:57:42 | 0:57:44 | |
"William Blake". | 0:57:44 | 0:57:46 | |
Another mood comes in. | 0:57:46 | 0:57:48 | |
That's the power of culture. | 0:57:48 | 0:57:50 | |
That is why people in cultivated countries tend not to kill each other. | 0:57:50 | 0:57:56 | |
It's a civilised way of being. | 0:57:56 | 0:57:58 | |
If you go to way country where there is no modern art gallery, no concert hall, no public library, | 0:57:58 | 0:58:03 | |
you will almost certainly need to hire a bodyguard. | 0:58:03 | 0:58:05 | |
You will see dead bodies on the way from the airport to the city. | 0:58:05 | 0:58:08 | |
I think that was the last word. | 0:58:08 | 0:58:11 | |
Gilbert and George, thank you very much. | 0:58:11 | 0:58:13 | |
-Thank you. -Thank you. | 0:58:13 | 0:58:15 | |
Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd | 0:58:32 | 0:58:35 | |
E-mail [email protected] | 0:58:35 | 0:58:37 |