Welsh Labour's Carwyn Jones Ask the Leader

This is Ask The Leader. Welcome to Llangollen.

Across the country this week, Welsh party leaders have faced your

questions as they fight to win in May's election. Tonight, we are live

in Llangollen, with undecided voters and party supporters. Join the

debate, #wales2016. Please welcome the leader of Welsh Labour, Carwyn

Jones. Our first question tonight comes

from Laura Davies. Good evening. My question to you is, why did you

screw up the NHS in Wales? APPLAUSE

Let me give you as full and answer as I can. Our budget was cut by 10%

by the Conservative government. Despite that, we spend more on

health than ever before. 42% of our budget at the start of 2011. The

health service is staffed by fantastic people, doctors, nurses

and health professionals, and they deserve our support and our

recognition this evening. We know that in the health service most

people get a good service most of the time. Sometimes it doesn't

happen that way. As soon as we know there is a problem, we take action.

One place went into special measures while you were in charge. We saw an

organisation that lost the confidence of people locally. We

took it over, put it into special measures, made sure the maternity

unit was dealt with. We are investing in a new neonatal unit as

well. And we will make sure that it works to re-gain the confidence of

people. The health board went into special measures, meaning you

stepped in as a government. You are now in control. When do you think it

is good enough to hand it back? It is not in a position to be handed

back until I am satisfied it has re-gain the confidence of local

people. It lost that confidence. That is quite an indictment, isn't

it? Local health boards are there to deliver services. We are there to

make sure when they are not delivering to the satisfaction of

local people, that they are put in a position where they start to

deliver. We are seeing that with Betsi. We spend more per head on

health in Wales than England does. Put it together with health and

social services, and these are the Treasury figures, 7% more. We can

trade figures, because it is less than Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Let's take some points from here. As a retired GP, I would like to know

what you are going to do to address the GP recruitment crisis in North

and South Wales. Another one. Down the front. Both from the GP and the

hospital doctor situation, all of the parties seem to want to appoint

or doctors. Part of your problem, a major part of your problem, is going

to be that you do not have the personnel, UK- wide, to do that. And

then if you appoint extra doctors, you are not paying just for the

doctors, but all the costs of the staffing, all of the specialties,

including GPs. Two points on recruitment. We have more GPs now

than in 99. But the issue you are repairing to is what happened with

Prestatyn. The two GP's surgeries decided to stop providing a service

to local people. That service is now wider and better than before. Part

of a problem, you hit the nail on the head, you can have more doctors

but you need to make sure people do not just default to a GP or A all

the time. Go to a pharmacist first, then a GP practice nurse, and then

think about AGP. It is not just about increasing the number of GPs

but sure that GPs are not seeing people who do not need to see them,

making sure they go to pharmacies or nurses, taking pressure off GPs.

More doctors is one answer, but making sure people choose the right

place to go first is important. Let's take as many... It was you

that closed it, because the buck was passed to you. You closed hospitals

locally and if you had not we would not have had the bed blocking and

the ambulance queues. Respond to that point. We are not in a health

service now where we want to put people in hospital. We want to get

them out of hospital, so we have invested in the intermediate care

fund, so people who are ready to come out are not sitting in hospital

but can come out with support from the local community. You mentioned

nowhere to go... The first thing you do is go and see a pharmacist. The

second thing is to see a GP practice nurse. Pharmacists are clinically

trained. Go and see a pharmacist, then go and see a GP. Thank you. The

lady in the front. We are talking about the NHS in Wales struggling.

Although acute care is good, what plans are in your manifesto to

prioritise the health of the people of Wales and its ongoing

rehabilitation after accident or illness for civilians going to be

the same quality of services as per example the MOD are providing at

Headley Court? First Minister, every time you bring

up NHS funding your default answer is to bring up Westminster. Although

the Welsh budget has been cut, it has only been cut in real terms. It

has risen in nominal terms. Your party has cut the NHS in both real

terms and in nominal terms. APPLAUSE

Schlein our budget has been cut by 10% by the Conservative government

in the UK. They except that. We have increased health spending in real

terms by 1%. In the context of that cut, it is important. We still spend

more per head than England. You did not do that in the early years.

Between 2010-13, you cut spending. We did not cut spending, we kept it

level and then increased it. Compared to England, it did not rise

in real terms, and you are playing catch up at the moment. We have

invested heavily in health, as people would expect. We want to

bring forward a new treatment fund, ?80 million, which will mean when

people have life-threatening conditions, including cancer, they

will have access to approved drugs and treatments as soon as possible.

We want to make sure people have access to new drugs as they are

approved. Please answer that question and then to the lady Ian

White. One way to ensure better rehabilitation is to make sure that

services are available in one place. If you look at health centres being

built across Wales, you will find all of the health professionals are

in that one place, not going from one building to the next to see

different people. It is important that people can come out of hospital

with the right level of support but also that they can access the

services they need in one place, and that is what health centres deliver,

which is what we want to roll out across Wales.

For years, the health service was built on the basis that you go to

hospital for treatment. Most people do not want to. If they can stay at

home with support, great. A point from the lady in white. I want to

speak from experience because I know we have issues with the NHS,

especially in Betsi Cadwaldr. It is very much the demand. My experience

of how the NHS work for me was 12 months ago last October, my daughter

fell ill. They found a mass. I was impressed with how quickly they

worked across border with all the hay. There are good stories with

regard to how the NHS provides specialist care, and I think we are

losing that in the narrative. So a positive point. We are coming to the

end of this question and that is a good place to end.

APPLAUSE We go on to question two. Mike

Evans. Hello, First Minister. Good evening. 17 years on from the

establishment of the Welsh Assembly, for many people in North Wales, the

Cardiff continues to feel Morimoto than Westminster. Wider you think

that is? APPLAUSE

Cardiff continues to feel more remote. I know this is a perception

and it was there before the Assembly was set up. If you look at the

ministries in the Welsh government there are four to represent all or

part of North Wales. That is four more than exist in the UK Government

representing the North of Wales. Further investments have taken

place. We lobbied for lots of jobs coming into Anglesey, looking at a

new crossing which will be coming into Anglesey, looking at a

important, going further east, supporting services in Snowdonia.

Over ?30 million will be put into the seafront to redevelop that. A

new high school opened this week which would not have opened in

England because they do not hold schools. That is important. If you

look at what we have done with the new neonatal unit, again, coming

further east you have investment in the A55. A lot of investment is

needed on that. You must hear that all the time, Carwyn Jones. I don't

think you will ever get away from it but I am giving examples of what has

been done across the North. Today we have announced the North Wales

Metro, making sure we have better public transport across the whole of

the north-east Wales. Thank you. What happens with politicians, they

point to investment. The point of the question was that there is a

disconnect when we try to tell the Assembly what is going on. Going

back to health, we would have expected that some of the decisions

that were made, that were bad decisions that we are paying the

price of, that would have fed back to Cardiff easier than to

Westminster. That was the point I was trying to make.

We have to feel better connected to the northern powerhouse than we ever

will to Cardiff. The lady in red. What do you feel the northern

powerhouse will bring to North Wales? How do you think it will

improve people's perception of the difference in investment? This is

George Osborne's idea about the North of England. Should it be

joined to North Wales? I do not see it as a competitor. I think it's

joined to North Wales? I do not see important that we link it as one

economic area so everybody can benefit. We have launched the North

Wales Metro, making it easier for people to travel to jobs and for

investment to come in. We have seen the map today. I don't know if

anybody else has seen it, but what does it mean? It means you have

better, faster, more frequent rail services. You have bus services that

link with rail services we lost in the 1980s. And looking at rail

connections to communities across the North. You are talking about a

Metro summit within 100 days of taking office. But 17 years, why no

metro before now? And how much will it cost? One of the ways in which we

can help pay for it is via city deal, which has been on the table

before, and we can take that forward. The big difference is that

from 2018 we control the rail franchise, so it gives control over

the railways, and we never controlled the buses, and that will

change as well. Now we have the powers we need to create a transport

system that the people deserve. Cost and time scale? Hundreds of

millions, and we will have a final idea once the summit has taken place

and once we know how quickly it can be rolled out. Is it a difficult

journey for you to get up here today? Because it is difficult for

us to get to Cardiff. I do not live in Cardiff. Back is 99 when the

Assembly was set up, there was no north- south transit. You would wait

half an hour minimum in Shrewsbury. Now there is a two our service

direct, between Cardiff Central and Holyhead. So the rail service has

improved. Holyhead, it is true, is further away. We cannot overturn

things that have happened in the past overnight. The roads are

important. We cannot build a jewel carriageway north- south. We have

improved the A470. And we have put money into the rail service. And we

have seen more and more people using the rail service than ever. Why is

there no jewel carriageway between North and South? Could it be

improved? We would put all our money into that, and we would not be able

to put money into the A55, for example.

Some would argue you are putting it all into the M4. The M4 is the

biggest traffic problem we have but if we didn't borrow the money, that

money would have to come out of the general roads fund, which would

affect the rest of Wales. We can leave the roads budget to pay for

everything else in Wales and use one pot to pay for one project. Lots of

hands up. Starting with you. How much will it cost, this Mfor? If we

can take them in a group. I assume we will be getting all of the

costings in your manifesto, when you cant be bothered to bring it out?

For a Welsh government, shouldn't a northern powerhouse mean north-east

Wales and north Wales together was to mark the lady here in the scarf.

Could you address the issue by appointing a minister for north

Wales? I have four ministers to represent north Wales. We want to

make sure we continue with the improvement in the road and rail

networks. That is important. It is right to mention the north-west,

because we want to make sure that the Metro rolls out there. What I

want to see is a situation where we continue to improve transport links,

that's important, broadband, that's another one. 96% of premises in

Wales have access to superfast broadband. That wouldn't have

happened without the Assembly. That connects communities in a way that

the rail lines did in the 19th century. That will take things

forward across the whole of Wales. In north and south Wales, public

services have been cut heavily, but why more in north Wales, especially

with police? It is your funding. The Welsh government doesn't control the

police. That is done by the Home Office. I agree. One thing we did

was play for 500 extra community support officers in the last five

years. -- what to pay. The next question is from Michael Stokes.

Will you be working more closely with Jeremy Corbyn or will you keep

the Welsh Labour Party at a distance from the UK party? This is Welsh

Labour fighting a Welsh election and I am the only candidate for First

Minister but of course we welcome support from our colleagues

elsewhere in the UK and Jeremy Corbyn is coming here in just over a

week. Today, we were in the new statesman giving advice to Jeremy

Corbyn. They probably asked you. You said, you have to present yourself

as somebody who looks like a First Minister or a Prime Minister. Are

you suggesting maybe he doesn't look like a potential Prime Minister was

to mark it is early days. He hasn't long been in that position but the

Conservatives are at public war with each other in the UK. Was it a

philosophical question about the positioning of Welsh label? Is it to

the right of Jeremy Corbyn? Is that what you are getting at? I feel that

the Welsh Labour Party are trying to keep the centre ground whereas

Jeremy Corbyn is going more to the left and I feel there is a distance

between them. Are you closer to Mr Corbyn? That is the only way we are

going to get the Tory party out of Westminster and get proper funding

into Wales. I agree we need to get the Tories out and get that funding.

At the moment, there is more than one Conservative Party. There is a

public war. There seem to be Stefan de Vrij Ukips at the moment. --

seven different Ukips. We are standing on a platform of Welsh

policies. We know that Rhodri Morgan liked clear water between him and

Tony Blair. Do you get closer to Tony Blair or Jeremy Corbyn? I am my

own person. Who is the better leader? I believe in fairness and

opportunity. We will never forget the people we represent. We need to

bring jobs in for them. Let's go to question number four. It comes from

James Wallace. You admit to taking your eye off the ball on education.

You have apologised. Do you think that is enough is it OK to lose a

generation because you were not on the ball? I do not think we have.

Education maintenance allowances in Wales went. Tuition fees in England

are ?22,000 more per head for English students to go to

university. We have not burdened that debt on them. We introduced

literacy and numeracy tests. We had a manifesto pledge to increase

education spending by 1% above what we got from Westminster. The

Conservatives pledge to cut it by 12%. There are schools being built

all across Wales. 150 schools have been built or rebuilt across Wales.

Nothing like that is happening in England. We will never let our young

people down. Can I ask James, do you feel let down? James, the question.

Do you feel let down? Definitely. I am in my last year of secondary

education and I feel the Welsh Labour government is a

disappointment to the education system. Down the road for me are

schools on special -- our school is on special measures. Surely they

should be your targets. Two things. First of all, those schools which

weren't performing as we think they should be got money through a

scheme. If you look at a school near here, incredible improvement in GCSE

results because of that money. We know there have been many buildings

in Wales that were not up to scratch. Nothing was built or

repaired in the 80s. But now we are seeing more and more youngsters in

facilities appropriate for the 20th century -- 21st century. For you, if

you go to university, you will not face the same depth as your English

colleagues. Your own education minister has said, I suppose we all

need to apologise to young people, talking about literacy as numerous

the Indy to thousands. That is a huge indictment. We introduced

literacy as numerous contests so parents now have a better idea of

where their children stand. Parents need to know how they are doing.

Teachers need to know. We are now seeing the best GCSE results ever.

We are seeing a level results improving across Wales. What about

the pupils who have been through the system and feel let down? We wanted

to make sure we have a system which worked for young people. Foundation

fees were introduced early on. We invested in school buildings. We

worked with teachers, because they are hugely important in terms of

what they deliver. And we didn't make it too expensive for people to

go to university or college. Let's take a question from the front. In

your time as First Minister, can we see the subsidised spending for

Welsh students to continue or is there a chance it might be reduced

just to Wales? We will never be in a position where Welsh students are in

the same position as English students. After the election, things

won't change. In the autumn, we have a review to look at how things have

been done and give some recommendations on the principle I

have given you. One thing we can't control is that, if English

universities lose the cap on fees and child what they once, that

causes issues. I don't like the idea, I am uncomfortable with saying

you can only study in Wales. That affects me because there are courses

that I am looking at, it is a niche course, which are only relevant to

some English universities or Cardiff. It is a joint honours

course. So I know it would affect me. Do you want to know precisely

how much you would get? From other parties, we have sort of heard a

ballpark figure of how much students will get. Are you saying to all

students, wait until September and maybe we will make our mind up? We

introduced the policy after a decision made at Westminster,

because we wanted to make sure our students were not disadvantaged. We

want to make sure our students are in a more advantageous position and

student unfortunately our elsewhere. We know that the Tories and Lib Dems

want to get rid of the support at the moment. Will you maintain it or

will it go down? We will maintain support for students at a higher

level than England. We will see what happens and keep the policy in place

until that review. So that could go down from 5000. It will stay at

5000? It isn't something we are looking at for the moment. It is

something we want to carry on with in terms of what has been a

successful policy. And we know that changing that would be changing

something successful. Is students vote for you, their grant will not

go down at all? We are looking at the moment at a position of keeping

what we have and making sure... The one thing I can't control is if

England lifts its cap on fees. one thing I can't control is if

is out of our control. What we can say is that we will not put you in

the same position as English students, as the Tories and Liberal

Democrats would. And we have heard their policies this week. The lady

at the back. I just wanted to pick up on your comment that you will

never let our youngsters down. I read a statistically other day, one

in five youngsters in Wales are living in poverty. -- I read a

statistic the other day. Maybe Mr Corbyn needs to be advising you on

how to be a socialist leader and tackle inequality. Carwyn Jones, if

I could just... Can we take if you more and then altogether, thank you.

Awards to make a comment as an educator. I was disappointed to hear

let -- to hear yet another politician claiming excellence in

teaching being based on outcome alone, good GCSEs in schools in

tests. As an educator, I know that tests at any level, primary or

secondary, further or higher education, they are an interruption

to real progress. APPLAUSE Quickly. My son has special

needs and we have been looking for college places and we have been told

that the funding has been cut to two years. How does that tie in? The

funding is there to be appropriate for courses a two-year courses. The

particular situation you are talking about is particular to yourself and

your family. The last thing we want to do is put those in special needs

in a more difficult position. But it is. I will have to look at more of

the details. I am a son of teachers and I am a parent. I want to know

how my kids are doing. I want testing. I want to know... I see my

daughter, at the age of six, looking out when she is being made to set a

text that might set a test and put people back. I want to know how my

child is doing at seven or 14. Is setting them back. That means a

system where parents and teachers can compare where their children

are. It is important for us to understand progression. It isn't the

be all and end all but they have to beat benchmarks against which we can

measure our children. And the point about Jeremy Corbyn, lessons to be

learned? We have had schemes in place like communities first. We

have doubled the number of families with access to the Flying Start. The

more skills you give people, the more chance they had to lift

themselves out of poverty. For some people, child care is important,

because they can find it difficult to find childcare, let alone

affordable childcare. That is why we are pledging to introduce 30 hours

of free childcare per week for working families. In Q2 Carwyn Jones

and the audience. That is it. Or five Ask The Leader shows are on the

BBC in player right up to the election. BBC Wales will be bringing

all the ups and downs right up to the campaign. Don't miss the debate

on BBC One Wales a week before the vote. It is goodbye from Llangollen

and good night from Ask The Leader.