Plaid Cymru's Leanne Wood Ask the Leader

Wales votes on May be. What difference will results make your

life? Welcome to Aberystwyth and to Ask The Leader.

We are live at the national library in Aberystwyth. Our audience is a

mix of undecided voters and party supporters. As usual, you can join

the debate, #wales2016. These welcome the leader Plaid Cymru,

Leanne Wood. Our first question tonight comes

from Lyn Evans. If Plaid Cymru were in power, would we see badger

culling to help tackle the problem of TB?

I don't think we can underestimate the devastation that can be felt by

a farmer and a farmer's family when bovine TB is discovered on a farm.

It is potentially a business ending moment when that happens. And I have

met people who have actually given up farming because of this. Now, I

don't come into politics as someone who is keen to kill badgers. That is

the last place I would come from. But we do need to tackle this

disease. Given that our farmers have been let down badly by the

government in Cardiff Bay, and Labour, which has seen them ignore

rural communities in many ways, and I think that, given that they put

all their eggs in the basket of a vaccination programme which didn't

end up materialising, they ran out of vaccines before the trial period

could be shown to give results, then we do need to be prepared to look at

this again. So I would favour a multi-option, multifaceted approach

to tackling this problem, but I would allow all options to be

considered, but we have to follow the evidence. It is difficult to do

that when the trial we had in place was cut short. Did you get an

answer? Not quite, but I think we are looking at the evidence. There

wasn't any point having vaccination. You can't vaccinate diseased

animals. If you look at the trials in England, where the culling is

taking place, the science is showing that it is helping with the disease

in England. So you want badgers to be cold? I do. I don't advocate

killing badgers for no reason but, with the disease's life, that is the

way forward. I would commit, if I was to become First Minister, I

would regularly meet with the farming unions to make sure we were

in touch with the latest developments, but we can't make sure

-- we can't carry on in the next term of the next government without

doing anything to tackle this. People are suffering. We haven't

committed -- you haven't committed yourself to an answer. You haven't

given a clear answer. I haven't ruled it out. Your manifesto talks

about having a toolkit to tackle bovine TB. What is in that? Is there

a cull? There could be. We want to see what the evidence tells us and

we want to take a number of different approaches to try and

tackle the problem and hopefully eradicate it. And culling would be

part of that? In 2011, your party said that Labour halting the One --

halting the cull was a slap in the face for farmers. We have seen

incidences of bovine TB go up 27%. Doing nothing is not an option. The

vaccination programme the government was pursuing, the vaccines have run

out. We can't just hold our hands up and say, let's allow the animals to

die of bovine TB. What has changed since before? You need to nail your

flag to the mast. The cull didn't actually happen. The evidence hasn't

changed. Surely you would be willing now will stop what Elin Jones did

when she was minister is she looked carefully at the evidence. That is

what we would do. The gentleman here first. I think the most serious

thing is to deal with the farmers in Ceredigion and Carmarthenshire are

going to the wall. As Leanne says, it is important to have scientific

evidence in place before knee jerk reactions. That doesn't help farmers

at all, to have politicised decisions all the time. It should be

based on the science that is out there and the science should be

listened to, rather than politicians pandering to one section of the

electorate or another. I think it is commendable that Leanne is willing

to listen to people and follow the science. I support what we Nevins

said earlier. I know from first-hand experience the effect of cows being

slaughtered when I was a young boy at home on my father's farm, and it

is devastating. Nothing has changed, really. Nothing has improved. If

anything, it has got worse. I am a lover of all types of animals and I

don't want to see any being killed, but why is it right to kill Cowles

losing their offspring, but not right to kill badgers? -- why is it

right to kill cows. Do you want people to think that Plaid Cymru is

in favour of a cull or not? Plaid Cymru is ready to tackle the

devastating issue of bovine TB and we will look at all options in terms

of doing that. I am not going to go all out for a cull badgers but I

recognise that the livelihoods are at and, given the other threats to

our farmers, like the potential pulling out of the EU and the

uncertainty around that, I think that the farming community need some

certainty with their government and they need to feel they have got a

government that is on their side. Let's move on to our second

question. IME minister of religion and many of my members are reliant

on health care. I feel it is unfair that some have to pay for their care

in residential and nursing homes and others don't. Will you change the

system? Yes, we will and it is one of our key policies to end this

artificial divide people find themselves in where, if you were

diagnosed with, say, cancer, you would get support at home and you

wouldn't have to pay for it whereas if you were diagnosed with something

like dementia, the rules are different and you would have to pay.

We have spent the last four years going around the country, speaking

to people, asking them what their main concerns are. This issue of

paying for social care has come out as one of the top concerns for

people. We want to end that anomaly. It is an expensive policy, but we

think it is worth prioritising, because the existing system is so

unfair. I was speaking to a woman recently who is waiting for a dip in

-- waiting for a big operation. She has been sat in a chair since last

July. Her mother is 95 years old and she is in her home. There is no

halfway house or intermediate care facility for that woman to go to

while she is waiting for her hip operation. She was clocking up a

place in a hospital before going back to her elderly mother. The

worry about who would pay for the costs of covering that scare for her

was something that was causing even more problems for her illness. You

set an expensive policy. How much would it cost? You are offering

abolishing home care, and free dementia care in five years. Have

you costed it? Yes, and, by the end of this term, it would cost ?180

million. The way we would fund that is, at the moment, our health budget

has not been protected, and we want to ring-fence the health budget.

There is additional money coming for health to Wales, and we want to

ring-fence that for spending on health and social care. We also want

to bring the two departments together, because so many people

find themselves in a situation whereby health and social services

are arguing about who is responsible for providing the care for people,

and that situation isn't fair. If we bring those two departments

together, we can create a system where the patient is at the heart of

the service rather than the service being designed around the

departments. The lady there followed by the other lady. I am pleased that

you have said what you just said about that, addressing an agenda of

equality and fairness, you said. Last year, and you as Nicola

Sturgeon, on the same platform, a couple of really feisty women, and

it was a pleasure to see you, but you indicated then that what you had

was very much an agenda, a socialist agenda, a Socialist leaning agenda

of fairness and equality being at the root of your policies. Since

then, I have been disappointed with your performance. You have seemed,

to me, to be toning it down and moving to the right. I just wondered

whether that is what you are doing and whether you are needing to do

that to appease the right wing of your party. That is the first time I

have heard that put dummy! No, I mean, what I am trying to do... --

put to me. I am trying to convey it that we have a programme of

government that is designed to turn around our country's problems,

particularly in the areas of health, education and the economy, and that

is in response to what people have told us they want from government.

This country is falling behind in so many areas. Our wage levels and GDP

are far behind. At the moment, in your manifesto, you talk about

efficiency savings of ?300 million to reinvest in the health service.

Do you think there is wastage in the NHS? That is what people are telling

us. Patients can identify areas where there is waste. Where is the

waste in the NHS? If you look at the Carter review in England, which

looked at efficiencies throughout the NHS, a number of things were

shown. How much do we spent on agency nurses, locum doctors? How

much do we spend on inefficiently procuring items for the health

service, surgical waiting lists? These are all areas where, little by

little, you can make small efficiency savings, but overall they

add up to a huge amount. Can I make this point, the savings that we want

to make in the NHS are to be put back into front line services to pay

for 1000 doctors, 5000 nurses. Welcome to Aberystwyth. We have had

a massive issue in this area, Mid Wales has got a massive issue. We

have fought for many years to reclaim our hospital. For many

years, we have had heavy bed blocking. It is common knowledge.

Lack of nurses coming into the hospital. But the big issue hitting

us now is we have a home here, which you must be aware of, and the flip

of the coin is that, yes, the community has been fighting for

dementia beds. We had one place that was supposed to do dementia beds

with care. It had backing from the council but it never happened. They

said they couldn't get trained staff. Now we only have one home for

Aberystwyth residents to go into. That is now going private. It is

going to go to dementia. So, as getting to that age now myself, it

is a big concern. Where are we going to go? What is going to be out there

for us? We have fought for about three years to get day centres in

Wales as statutory requirements. The request went into your government

but it didn't happen. Briefly, please. The key issue is about

staff. We want to invest in our workforce and create 1000 extra

doctors over the next two terms and 5000 extra nurses, because so many

of the pinch points in the system, so many of the reasons people have

to wait for A, for GP appointments, they are down to a

lack of staff. That goes for the care sector as well. It isn't ideal,

the way some of the services are developing. I understand that local

authorities are not able to run dementia units and a dementia unit

is needed, so a new configurations is required to run that. That is a

very local and specific issue but I think, in general, the bulk of our

problems in the health service are down to the fact that we don't have

enough staff. We have got fewer doctors per head of the population

in Wales than every other country bar three in the EU. We are going to

go onto the next question. One last point on health, and then we will

move on. Correct me if I am wrong, but part of the staffing issue is

not being able to recruit people. A lot of people aren't interested in

joining health care, which is a big shame. Other than funding, how are

you going to encourage people to join the health care workforce? You

are right, recruitment is a big problem, and it is a problem in many

countries. We have looked at examples throughout the world, and

New Zealand offers us a good model, we think. That is a small country

with a big neighbour. They train doctors and they lose doctors to

their neighbour, similar to what we have here. Some areas, it is very

difficult to attract doctors. If we can incentivise them, if you work in

this particular area for five years, after you qualify, we will pay off

your tuition fees. Question three then. Will you and

your party commit to a nuclear-free Wales? Plaid Cymru is opposed to

Trident and we have been very clear on the case of opposing nuclear

weapons. On the on the case of opposing nuclear

power, that is a little bit more difficult for us. I will be honest

with you - it has not been a straightforward question for Plaid

Cymru. I am not personally convinced that nuclear power is the answer. I

am not convinced it stacks up financially. I would prefer us to

take more of financially. I would prefer us to

approach. And we have got, in our manifesto, an aim to meet all the

electricity needs, in as far as we can in Wales, which we consume, to

be met renewably by 2035. That will not be easy to achieve because the

subsidy... Can we stick with nuclear. You said in your manifesto

- we will not support the development of new nuclear power in

new locations - which is a brilliant fudge, isn't it? You are saying,

yes, in Anglesey because our AM is Plaid Cymru because it is awkward

for us and we want to safe the jobs... It is not because our AM is

local to that area. It is a difficult issue on its own. The

reason is because there have been 6,000 people employed on fairly

decent wages. Those jobs are going to come to an end. And there has

been no plan in place to replace those jobs. We have put all our eggs

in the nuclear basket. There was a report out last week, which

suggested that it may never go ahead - the finances might never, ever

stack up. If it doesn't go ahead what happens to the people on the

island who will then be out of work? We have to have an alternative jobs

job. It is not a principled opposition to nuclear then? It is a

pragmatic one? If the jobs are there it is fine. Everybody needs to have

a job. If it is not those jobs there have to be other jobs. Have you had

an answer? Kind of, but not one I find wholly satisfying. I admire

your position on Trident. I agree. I think we need a principled

opposition to nuclear power and Wales is uniquely placed for a

renewables revelation. I think you agree with -- - revolution. I think

you agree with me on this. The gentleman behind you? At the end

of the month there is a camp to close down an open mine. I wonder if

you commit to ending fossil fuels in Wales? We need to move on to beyond

our addiction to fossil fuels and Plaid Cymru is committed to not

opening any new open-cast coal sites in Wales and a plan to ending that

reliance on fossil fuels. We want to make sure we don't have fracking in

Wales as well. Can we pretend for a second that the

UK Government's collectively vote to do away with Trident? Does this mean

we'll all hold our hands up and be neutral like Holland did in the

first and Second World Wars? Or Ukraine did? It is not feasible not

to have a deterrent. There are more than 100 countries in the world who

don't have nuclear weapons. I would prefer us to join that club than the

one we are in. On the point with Trident, however

we have not Ukraine are a world superpower. We are one of the

strongest armies in the world. It is silly of us not to have a nuclear

deterrent, if the United States has got it, Russia has got it. We are

not a small nation - we are Great Britain - the emphasis on "great".

That sounds last century to be, if I am honest. A point from the front

here. I find thatry dickrous really to say -- that Ridiculous to say we

are a superpower and will invest ?185 billion into something that we

will never use, that is absolutely useless in terms of the future of

this country. Far better to take that money and

create real jobs. Let's invest it in steel.

Let's invest it in the health service.

Thank you very much. I will take a point here, then to the next

question. I think that people need to realise that the British empire

is dead. Thank you. That is all I need to

say. OK. Pat Bates.

Hello. Public spending in Wales is so much higher than the total

revenue that we receive. So, I am wondering why Plaid Cymru is so hell

bent on breaking up the United Kingdom for independence? I would

ask you, Leanne, have you played this independence down for the

election purpose? I want Wales to become an

independent country. I see absolutely no reason or any

inferiority about us as a nation that can't... Where is the money

coming from? ?15 billion a year. What is the tax you pay back or we

take back? It is way below the settlement. It is about ?6 billion

isn't it? Roughly. We are like Greece, unless we have England

playing th ed bankers and insurance men!

The UK is in deficit. There is a big gap of money between what the UK of

takes in and spends and the gap is substantial.

Before you answer, public spending was ?38 billion in Wales 2014-2015.

Now the money raised from taxes was ?23.4 billion. There is a bit of a

?15 billion black hole. That is the question. It is a fair question. I

think that's the reason why many people are not in favour of Wales

becoming an independent country. They cannot see how we can close

that gap. Plaid Cymru's manifesto is all about closing that gap. We have

got a plan to do that in the short-term. And in the longer term.

And look, whether you agree with wanting to become independent or

not, surely you ask agree with me that the aim has to be to close that

gap? Come with me on this journey to help us close that gap. I agree with

you on anything. I am sure the English taxpayer would like Wales to

get off their backs. We have been impoverished because of the system

we are in. I want us to be able to be in

control of as much of our economic levers as we can, so we can get to

that point where we close that tax gap. I want us to be able to standen

our own two feet. Sure -- stand on our own two feet. Surely you want

that too? Thank you very much. You have made your point.

Let's take some of the points. One thing clear - Plaid Cymru is not

hell bent on going independent. That is a fact. If they were, we

would be well down the road by now. Plaid Cymru has said clearly they

will seek independence when the people are ready.

Right, the lady there... SPEAKS WELSH Do you really believe

Wales or Scotland for that matter or particularly Wales could survive by

themselves? I don't. I I don't step that we can't. If

every other country in the world is able to raise the taxes that it

spends, why not Wales? Are you saying people here are somehow

unable or incapable? Give us a figure then? You have done

the sums. Wales will not be independent for many years. We have

no idea what our economic position will be in the future.

What I have said and Plaid Cymru has said every step of the way on this

question, is we will go nowhere without the full consent of people

in this country. Briefly on the timing here... On this programme a

year ago, you said you want to see Wales independent within your

political lifetime. Who knows how long that will be. What sort of

timescale are we talking about? It will not be in the short-term. We

understand that. In our manifesto we have put a target of closing the gap

within a generation - that is a 20-year plan to close the tax gap

between us and the rest of the UK. I think that is a good time frame.

Next question from Don Thomas. Good evening.

How is Plaid Cymru preparing for the possibility of entering into a

coalition Government with another party? Could it be a coalition of

the unwilling? We are not preparing for a coalition

Government. I want there to be a Plaid Cymru Government after the

next election. I don't want there to be a

coalition. I don't want there to be a Labour Government. I think we have

had Labour leading the Government in Wales for 17 years. They have not

done a great job. And there are a very few countries within the world,

very few democracies that have the same party running the Government

for that length of time. Look at the outcomes in terms of the economy,

for people waiting for diagnostic tests for cancer in the health

service. Look at the results where we stand in education. Would you do

a deal with Labour again? Well, I have ruled out doing a deal with the

Conservatives. I cannot see anyway we could do any kind of working

arrangement with Ukip. But apart from that... All other options are

open. Despite them calling you a cheap date recently. That is

irrelevant. Could you do a deal with somebody who talks like that about

your party? I have spent the last four years with my team, my

excellent team, going about the country, speaking to people,

building a programme of Government to transform a nation.

That is what I want to put out to people and I don't think it is

helpful to spend all the time before the election talking about what

deals we might or might not do after the election. The whole point of an

election is that people get to have their say.

What is your attitude to Welsh... To the speaking people. You have learnt

the language love and that is well to you. The last ten seconds of the

programme. I am an English-speaking Welsh person who is learning Welsh.

Everyone who lives in Wales is a citizen and has a place in the

future of our country. Thank you to our audience here. By

the way if you missed any of our debates this week you can catch up

all the main party leaders on the iPlayer. Tomorrow join me with Jones

and another audience in Ask The Leader. Good night. Nos da.