15/11/2017 BBC Wales Live

That's Newsnight with Emily.

Here on BBC One, it's time

for the news where you are.

Hello and welcome to Wales Live.

Stay with us for the biggest stories

in Wales and the issues that matter

to you.

Good evening. On Wales Live tonight.

The First Minister under pressure

after allegations of bullying.

Fierce exchanges in the Senedd.

Anger. Anger that the First Minister

would just stonewall such simple

questions.

Also tonight, police

struggling to prevent crime has the

deal with a sharp increase in calls

from people suffering a mental

health crisis.

And fake news, Jason has been

finding out why we fall for it.

Have

you ever stopped to consider how

your brain decides which information

to believe and what to disregard?

Who will also be talking Brexit, as

voting continues in Parliament

tonight about the bill to leave the

European Union.

Noswaith dda, good evening.

Support for male victims of domestic

abuse in Wales is 30 or 40 years

behind what's available for women,

according to a charity.

The Dyn Project was set up

as the first dedicated service

for men in 2006 and demand has now

reached a record high.

Paul Heaney reports.

It got so bad that I

thought he might kill me,

so I took an overdose.

And then he came in to see me

in the hospital and said when I got

home it was going to get worse.

So I think it was after being

resuscitated twice that I thought,

"I can't do this any more."

Lewis is safe now,

thanks to a charity.

Before they physically hit

you, they mentally have

already broken you down.

There are different ways of

measuring the scale of this issue.

One study suggests just one-in-five

victims report to the police.

The latest crime survey

suggests 1.3 million women

are affected each year.

Over 700,000 men also said they'd

experienced some form

of domestic abuse that year.

of domestic abuse that year.

The Dyn Project started in 2006 -

the first dedicated support service

for male victims in Wales.

We often say we're probably 30-40

years behind women's services.

The charity says things in Wales

have been steadily improving

and points to three refuges

here for men, compared to nine

across the whole of England.

But it also says refuge isn't always

what men say they want.

Often it's about specialist

advisers on the phone.

The biggest barrier,

they say, is knowing help

is even available all.

And some of those cultural issues

with men, particularly heterosexual

men, like your manner,

you deal with it.

I think the more men that present,

the more men that come forward,

the more evidence we have

for things like funding.

Lewis got the help he

needed just in time.

It's thought many others don't.

The family of former

Welsh Government minister

Carl Sargeant have said they have

been "overwhelmed" by the support

they have received since his death.

In a statement, his son Jack said

knowing how much his dad was loved

has helped them bear the pain.

Mr Sargeant is thought to have

taken his own life days

after being sacked from the Cabinet,

following allegations

of inappropriate behaviour.

Today, the Prime Minister

and the Labour Leader,

Jeremy Corbyn, paid tribute to him

in the House of Commons.

I'm sure the House will join me

in sending our deepest sympathies

to the family and friends

of the late Carl Sargeant,

the Labour Assembly Member in Wales

who very tragically died last week.

I also join with him in offering

condolences to the family

and friends of Carl Sargeant,

and I'm sure that goes

for everybody across this House.

The First Minister has faced calls

from Conservative and Plaid Cymru

AMs to answer questions

about whether he misled the Assembly

over alleged bullying

within his Government,

dating back to 2014.

dating back to 2014.

There was anger in the Senedd

after Carwyn Jones refused

to elaborate on what he knew

about the claims.

The First Minister has

said issues brought up

were dealt with at the time

There has been a further fall

in unemployment in Wales.

Official figures show

there were 5,000 fewer people out

of work here between July

and September than there

were between April and June.

were between April and June.

The Welsh Government has welcomed

a ruling that clears the way for it

to impose minimum prices on alcohol.

The Supreme Court has

dismissed a challenge

by the Scotch Whisky Association

to Scottish Government plans

to introduce minimum pricing there.

Ministers here hope a bill making

the change will become

law by next summer.

The weather:

Tonight will be

fairly cloudy with patches

of rain and drizzle.

Some dry weather, as well,

with breaks in the cloud.

It will be breezy on the coast,

and a mild night.

The lowest temperatures will be

between seven and 11 Celsius.

Tomorrow, a band of

rain in the north-west

will spread south-east.

Behind it, it will be

dry and brighten-up.

There will be some sunshine in

the north and west in the afternoon.

Temperatures will be on the mild

side, between 10 to 14 Celsius,

but turning colder once the rain

clears, with a widespread

frost tomorrow night.

There will be a full weather

forecast with Derek Brockway

after the programme.

Bethan.

The leader of the Welsh

Conservatives has called for a group

of AMs to question the First

Minister over allegations of

bullying in the Welsh Government.

Andrew RT Davies is a special

enquiry is needed following claims

by a former minister, Leighton

Andrews, and ex-adviser Steve Jones

over toxic culture. The government

says it does not recognise the

claims, but to people who used to

work in the Welsh Government have

told us that criticism of the

culture is correct.

These are the darkest days that any

of us can remember in this

institution.

His death has shaken us

to our core and we are heartbroken

he is no longer with us.

Carl

Sargeant's death has left Welsh

politics and grief. Four days before

his death he was sacked from

government over allegations from

several women over his personal

conduct. In the days since his

death, there have been

recriminations and allegations about

the culture within the previous

Welsh Government administration,

allegations that Carl Sargeant and

other ministers were bullied and

undermined.

Carl Sargeant was on the

end of some of that bullying.

Yes,

hands there were ministers being

targeted at different points. There

were also advisers being targeted at

different points. The First Minister

was aware of this.

What happens to

Carl Sargeant didn't start just a

couple of weeks ago. He had been

subjected to this Kent and Medway

for several years.

Serving ministers

went on the record said they did not

recognise the claims.

Leighton is

one of those people who is going

through grief and don't think it

helpful for me to help open up a new

field of conflict.

I don't recognise

the culture that they have commented

upon in my own experience.

And some

question their motives. Lee Waters

suggested on Twitter that old score

at being settled, a point echoed

tonight by a senior Labour MP who

told BBC Wales tragic circumstances

were being used for political gain.

In response, Leighton Andrews said

it was cowardly for an MP to attack

him anonymously. There are others

who say they do recognise the

initial claims. I have spoken to two

people who used to work in

government who did not want to be

named but reinforced the criticism

that has been made, saying the Welsh

Government was toxic and an unhappy

place to work. One said give it up

in the morning not knowing if you

were supported and said the one

person who could have changed the

culture was the First Minister, but

he often left it to others to set

the tone. In response, the

government told us.

The First Minister is also under

pressure over what he said about

bullying on the record in the past.

Three years ago the First Minister

was asked if he had received any

reports were had been a -- had been

made aware of reports of bullying.

He said no allegations have been

made. Yesterday, he said that

issues, as he called them, had been

brought to his attention in 2014.

Where any issues raised with me

dealt with?

Yes, they were dealt

with. This afternoon the First

Minister was called back to the gym

but to answer a question from the

Conservatives seeking clarity on the

apparent discrepancy.

I have nothing

to add to the answers I have already

given, but I reiterate the

invitation that was made yesterday.

If anybody wishes to come forward

with further information.

The leader

of the Welsh Conservatives give this

reaction.

Anger. Anger that the

First Minister did just stonewall

such simple questions because he has

acknowledged that there were issues

around bullying and intimidation

that, in his own words, were dealt

with in 2014. Today I was seeking to

find out when he became aware of

those allegations, who dealt with

them and what actions were taken to

address those concerns so they

wouldn't continue affecting the

delivery of Welsh Government policy.

He says that a cross-party committee

of AMs should call the Minister to

answer more questions about the

allegations. While the independent

enquiry into the First Minister's

handling of Carl Sargeant's sacking

is some weeks away, he is now facing

more immediate pressure over

allegations about the culture of his

government in recent years. We asked

the First Minister for an interview

that he was unavailable. Joining me

now is the Plaid Cymru assembly

member Adam Price. You were in the

chamber this afternoon and just like

Andrew RT Davies were very angry.

I?

At this intensely difficult time, I

have some sympathy for the enormous

pressures that the First Minister

must be under, but today was an

opportunity, I think, to address the

apparent contradiction, shall we

say, between what we have heard from

Leighton Andrews, from Steve Jones

and now it seems from others and

what the First Minister has said,

said unequivocally in 2014 as we

heard in the reply he gave at the

time that there had been in such

allegations of bullying. Those

statements made by Leighton Andrews

and Steve Jones, and the statement

made by the First Minister are in

clear contradiction to each other.

They can't both be true. Today was

an opportunity for the First

Minister to come clean, if you like,

with his view of the situation.

Instead he refused to address the

question. It can't have a position

where serious allegations have been

made and whether his question over

if the Assembly has been misled and

the First Minister refuse to address

the question.

We have had the

statement from the First Minister.

He has been clear both yesterday and

today that he stands by his 2014

response. He has also been very

clear that any other issues raised

directly with them at that time were

dealt with appropriately.

Does that

and to your concerns? What were the

other issues?

There is a different

between issues and bullying

allegations, maybe the issues were

different, we don't know.

We have heard from Leighton Andrews

and Steve Jones who specifically say

they raised allegations of bullying

with the First Minister. He is

saying that no such allegations were

raised. Either they are allying with

the First Minister misled the

Assembly.

He also

the First Minister misled the

Assembly.

He also said today these

were potentially HR issues. The

Permanent Secretary will be better

placed to answer isn't that a

PowerPoint?

He described these as

hate our ages because when it comes

to the question whether the present

moment misled the Assembly that goes

the core of our democracy because we

cannot have a position where those

who really does us. Honesty is one

of the seven principles and public

life.

We jumped in here on these

allegations of bullying and as a

party you have an elected member who

is facing allegations of bullying

which were raised eight months ago

and your own party leader says you

haven't dealt with those

successfully, so are you in a place

to throw stones here is Plaid Cymru?

I don't think anyone of us should

shy away from the need for the

culture of politics to change. I saw

at Westminster during the time of

new Labour when Malcolm Tucker was

more fat than fiction quite frankly.

That kind of brutal politics must

come to an end. There are very

specific questions the First

Minister should have addressed today

and the key question is whether that

statement misled the Assembly

because it clearly is contradicted

by statements that were made by

sending your advisers.

Thank you for

coming in. A senior police officer

says his force is struggling to

prevent crime as they are having to

deal with so many calls from people

with mental health issues. It comes

as figures obtained by Wales Live

show all police forces in Wales had

seen a rise in calls involving

mental health. Here is Jenny Rees

with the story.

It's Friday night and we are out

with police in Carmarthen.

This is no typical shift.

PC Stuart Edwards is with Ed McHugh,

an NHS mental health worker.

And they are only responding

to mental health-related calls.

I didn't join the police to be

a mental health worker as such,

but we do have a lot of calls

and I think it is good to give

people a good service.

From 4pm until midnight,

if a call comes in where someone

is in crisis the team is dispatched

straight to the address.

It is the only service

of its kind in Wales.

There is that sort of overlap

where we deal with people,

and even if we are dealing with them

for a criminal purpose

or as a victim or as a perpetrator,

we have still got a duty of care

to try and help them in a way.

They keep their presence low-key

and work in an unmarked van.

It's 6:30pm and they are concerned

about a mum who has called

in in a great deal of distress.

Stuart and Ed go in,

but our cameras can go no further.

What happens next is crucial.

The two options at this time

of night are A&E or a police cell.

Neither of those is ideal.

But if they can target this

support it might mean that

neither of those is needed.

But in this case it is unavoidable.

They feel she does need

to go to hospital.

And they take her to A&E.

Mark Collins, Chief Constable

at Dyfed-Powys Police,

is also the lead on mental health

for the National Police Chiefs'

Council across England and Wales.

He says that there has been

an increase in calls

linked to mental health.

And it is having an impact.

I think across the UK we have

seen a 30-40% increase

in all police forces.

Some will be higher than that, some

slightly lower, but around 30-40%.

We don't fail to hit our 999 calls,

but of course we are not out

there being proactive,

we are not out there preventing

crime, detecting crime

and doing our other policing duties,

because we are tied

up doing that work.

Our research supports this.

Wales Live asked every police force

in Wales how many calls they've

received in the last five years

relating to a person's

mental health.

Each of them has seen an increase.

Some more than others.

In south Wales calls

with a mental health link have

increased by a huge 223%.

In North Wales it has gone up 104%.

Dyfed-Powys 29%.

Gwent only has figures for three

years, but it has also seen a rise.

Back on shift and more

calls are coming in.

He is on the phone to a gent we have

had a call about in Lampeter.

We are on our way up there now.

We are on our way up there now.

So, it has just gone 10pm.

We are now in Lampeter.

We can't go with the cameras.

Someone has called in saying

they are feeling suicidal.

On this occasion they don't think

the person is a danger

to themselves, but they wait

until a family member arrives.

These calls take a lot of police

time, but for every call

there is a person in distress.

Georgia Lawson from Welshpool at one

time was calling the police

several times a week.

It's been a couple of years now,

luckily, but I was really not safe,

I was struggling with suicidal

thoughts on a regular basis.

At my worst I was probably calling

them out about three

or four times a week.

I could sometimes, I would see them

two days back-to-back

because whatever crisis happened

on the one day hadn't

been resolved properly,

so I was in the same situation

the next night.

If it wasn't for the police

I would probably have wound up

in hospital in life-threatening

situations several times.

I can say that definitely part

of the reason I am still here today

is because of the police.

As well as the crucial support

she was getting from the police,

Georgia said she also felt very

traumatised when officers

had to detain her under

the Mental Health Act.

There I was in handcuffs, and being

put into the back of a van.

The whole experience

was unlike anything else I have ever

been through and I will

always remember it.

That put a fear in me about ever

getting that ill and ever getting

into that situation again,

because I didn't ever want to be

that humiliated and that, sort of,

treated that way again.

Mark Collins says there is a lack

of appropriate alternative places

other than police cells or hospital

A&E departments where

people can get support.

He is calling for specialist centres

to be setup to help in crisis.

It's that facility 24-7,

with mental health workers,

ex-service users, volunteers,

charities there where we can take

people to have that conversation

and to be signposted to the services

that they need, without going

through the ordeal of being brought

into a police vehicle and taken

for an assessment.

It's midnight, and the shift

is coming to an end.

These calls are increasing at such

a rate that Dyfed-Powys Police

is now planning to increase

the service from four

nights a week to seven.

It is a shame that we had four

or five calls coming

in at the same time,

and we physically can't deal

with all of them at the same time.

People live completely isolated

from the rest of society

and it is just really surprising how

hard it is for them

to get help sometimes.

to get help sometimes.

If you are feeling emotionally

distressed and would like details of

organisations which offer advice and

support you can go online. Or you

can call this number for free any

time to hear recorded information.

The Chief Constable of Dyfed-Powys

police Mark Collins who we saw in

the film is also the National Police

Chiefs' Council lead for mental

health and policing in England and

Wales. Thank you for coming to the

studio. We heard a colleague there

of years saying he was surprised

there was nobody else offering help.

You surprised you have to do this? I

think we have a role to play in

supporting young people around

mental health and we should have a

leading role in that and that is

becoming increasingly the picture.

We want to see street triage rolled

out seven days a week but ultimately

what I want to see our reception

centres, Sanctuary crisis care cafes

where we can take people but don't

need to be assisted under the Mental

Health Act but signposted to

services.

Your day job is to tackle

crime. Talk us through the impact

this pressure on you is having on

that job.

My officers and staff are

dealing at the moment across their

time about 11% dealing with crime.

25% dealing with vulnerable people,

mental health, missing people. That

shows a huge swing in the landscape

that has changed in policing of the

last 5-10 years.

You spending too

much time on mental health issues?

We have a role to play but while we

are doing that we're not fighting

crime and supporting of crime and

not chasing up prevention

opportunities.

You singing criminals

are getting angry with that because

you are busy doing this to work?

Dyfed-Powys is one of the places

that the safest places to live in

England and Wales. Detection rate

and low crime rates. But while we

are focusing on this we are not

doing core policing duties.

The

service you are expanding to some

nights a week, should all police

forces across Wales try and achieve

this?

I think many are. Gwent have

got a similar system in working

mental health officers in the

control rooms. At the moment we are

the only ones out and about. You

think everybody should be out on the

streets? It as a stepping stone

towards what they want, when the

cafes and reception centres. I think

it's a sticking plaster over dealing

with the real issues.

The NHS needs

to take a lot of the weight off your

gum is that what you are saying?

We

work very closely with the NHS

colleagues and a very good working

relationship, we work closely

together and we agreed to expand the

service to seven days a week and

they had cut the same resources to

agree but in the is not doing at the

heart of the root of the problem.

But the group at the same resources.

We are working with people engaged

recently disengaged the service and

that can't be right.

Most government

needs to step up don't they, and

they say policies they put in place

did use the use of police custody in

Christ because the more they can do?

We have reduced the numbers of

people who come into police custody

and police cells for a place of

safety but asked you we had a dud

that increase in people that were

actually taken the place of safety

so it was by the relationship we

have got the good old boys and

partners in terms of creating this

subsidy but we have still...

Should

the West government invest more in

this?

That is a conversation to have

with other health boards but I would

like to see more infrastructure and

more funding going from phone

services.

Thank you for coming into

night. This week Theresa May said

that Russia was planting fake

stories to sow discord in the West.

Fake news is big news. One of the

most widely shared stories during

the latest elections in America was

the fake story that Pope Francis and

endorsed Donald Trump for president.

Collins dictionary has named the big

news it's word of the year. Here is

Jason. In 2017 we have good news

stories hurtling towards us vying

for our attention and 24 hours a day

and seven days a week, most of

them from reputable sources.

them from reputable sources.

Most of them are from completely

reputable sources, but others,

quite simply, are made up.

Put out there to deceive us.

But have you ever stopped

to consider how your brain decides

which information to believe

and what to disregard?

Dr Dean Burnett has made

it his mission to help us

think a little deeper

about what our brains are up to.

His book, The Idiot Brian,

has been sold all over the world.

In it, he explains to nonscientists

how our brains tick.

The brain is constantly bombarded

by different types of information

from various sources at all times,

and that's a lot to take in.

The human brain is very much averse

to things being uncertain, unsure.

As a result, anything uncertain

causes a bit of discomfort.

We will constantly look

for easy answers and simple

solutions to big problems.

solutions to big problems.

In BBC newsrooms like this

one objectivity is key,

but according to neuroscientists

like Dean, quirks in the human brain

could indeed make us

vulnerable to fake news.

While he lectures on neuroscience

by day, by night Dean

is a stand-up comedian.

The wonderful, Mr Dean Burnett,

ladies and gentlemen!

Come on!

Come on!

Dr Burnett, James,

I keep telling you.

It is a bit strange having

a neuroscientific, psychological

knowledge when you're doing comedy

because you are sort of aware

of stock responses that people

exhibit when they're in certain

situations, such as in a crowd.

'Fake news', that's another

word I'm not a fan of.

Fake news.

Because I'm old enough to remember

when that was called 'lies'.

Just straightforward, basic lies.

Just straightforward, basic lies.

Dean uses his comedy to explore

the psychology behind

the fake news phenomenon.

And he's made up his own fake news

story to test his theories.

He's offering the audience a very

simple reason why the UK

chose to leave the EU.

chose to leave the EU.

My main intention is to try

to convince people that the main

reason we left the EU

is because the Severn Bridge toll

is too high, which sounds

unrealistic, but there's actually

a lot of evidence for it.

There's been a study,

a longitudinal, 15-year,

population sampling,

opportunity-based, double-blinded,

randomised, control,

mass-population survey.

The weird result was

that the Severn Bridge toll

was a massive factor

contributing to Brexit.

The point, of course, is that none

of what I've just said is true,

I've just made that up,

but it sounds believable

because I said it in such a sort

of straightfaced, analytical way.

Fake news, see, that's what that is!

APPLAUSE.

Yeah.

The problem is when people have

so much news available to them now,

a lot of which is created by people

who aren't impartial,

who have an agenda,

who have a political bias,

you can sort of pick and choose

which news you agree

with and which news you don't,

even though the underlying reality

might completely be different.

Look no further than the fake news

and the crooked media.

We are fighting the fake news.

You are fake news.

Fake news can have very

real consequences.

During the US presidential election

last year, fake news stories

on social media were shared more

widely than mainstream news.

So can neuroscience

offer us a solution?

I think if you have an

understanding, or at least

an awareness of the fact that

you are not going to be completely

rational and objective

on everything you're told,

that can be helpful.

That can be useful because you can

see something and go,

"Oh, I agree with that",

then stop for a second and think,

"Is this conforming to my prejudice

or is it an actual reliable

bit of information?"

And, as a result, you might

benefit from that.

Fake news may be reduced slightly.

I'm sort of known for not

knowing how to finish

a set, so, umm, goodbye,

I guess.

APPLAUSE.

APPLAUSE.

Strong emotions are being stirred up

over Brexit this week at

Westminster. The most fierce debate

so far has been about the Prime

Minister's desire to include the

exact date for Brexit in the

legislation.

The clock is now ticking

to the exact day hour, minute

and second when the United Kingdom

is expected to exit

the European Union.

The Prime Minister says that

when the clock strikes 11pm

on Friday, 29 March 2019,

the UK will leave.

The UK Government wants to add

the date to the EU Withdrawal Bill

currently being fine tuned as MPs

work through hundreds of pages

of amendments and new clauses

in the Committee Stage.

For the process to keep moving,

the UK wants to agree its divorce

issues by next month,

when EU heads of state meet.

But if sufficient progress isn't

made, the EU says talks

about a future trading relationship

can't even begin.

The Government wants

to keep up the momentum.

If a Brexit deal can be agreed

by next autumn there will be time

for parliaments across the continent

to ratify the deal

before it is made law.

The Government also says it

will give MPs to vote on the deal,

but will leave the EU anyway,

even if it is rejected.

With so much still to be decided

between now and then,

every second counts.

Well, the debate has just finished

for tonight. Labour MP Jo Stevens

joint us from Westminster. I give

for joining us. Let's look at the

date. Why not have it in law to

focus minds?

This isn't about having

the dates in. Doctor focused mind,

this is a gimmick by Theresa May to

placate the hard regs are tears in

her Cabinet and across the Tory

party. She said in her Florence

speech that have a transitional deal

with an existing -- within existing

structures she would need to have

that in the transitional period

after we leave the EU and if the

data is written into the face of the

bill that will prevent that

happening. This government amendment

is a gimmick, it has created quite

if the brow atmosphere this week. We

will be voting on it right at the

end of the process.

She wants to

focus minds within a wrong party,

yes, but also people like you

perhaps who voted to remain. You

resign from the shadow never the

triggering of Article 50. You

clearly don't want Brexit to happen.

Will you frustrated at stage? It is

not about frustrating it. This bill

isn't about leaving the European

Union, that issue has been decided.

This bill is about what was says

Parliament plays unmapped and how we

protect the rights and protections

that we have enjoyed as a result of

being a member of the European

Union. Environmental, consumer,

workers' rights. It has nothing to

do with whether we leave or don't,

it is how we leave.

You have been

told that you will get a vote on the

final deal as MPs, but we believe

anyway regardless of what Parliament

votes. Is that a meaningful vote?

Of

course it's not. You have seen in

the debates this week that there are

a number of Conservative MPs who are

opposed to this approach. This is

not in the national interest for us

to leave about a deal, and the way

that this has been framed about the

vote for Parliament is basically we

will offer you have ever we think is

right and if you don't take it,

there is no deal, and we will go off

the cliff edge and that is not

acting in the national interest.

Looking at the role of Wales, you

mention a power grab. What disabled

the Welsh assembly have in this?

There are a number of amendments

that we have tabled that had been

agreed by the Welsh and Scottish

governments. They will be coming up

for a debate in the coming weeks in

order to protect the interests and

nature that the devolved

institutions do not have powers

stripped away.

In other words, if

you could stop Brexit comedy would,

wouldn't you?

I personally would,

but that is not the Labour Party

position. The Labour Party position

is that we respect the referendum

result, but we want to add jobs

first Brexit and we want something

in the national interest, which is

not why we are going at the moment

with the government's position.

Thank you for joining us. That is it

for tonight. Jason and I will be

back same time next week. Thank you

for watching.