Wed, 18 Jan 2012 CF99

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Good evening. Welcome to CF99.

Tonight, managing the police.

What makes a good police commissioner and how will you vote?

And what are the views on a separate legal system for Wales?

Joining us in the Senedd tonight

are the Chair of Plaid Cymru, Helen Mary Jones,

Gwynedd Parry from the Law Department at Swansea University

and, joining us from Westminster, the Labour MP Alun Michael.

-Welcome.

-Good evening.

Good evening.

Who should police the police?

As it stands, an authority oversees the work of every force in England and Wales

but, from mid-November,

one person will be responsible for that in each area.

The UK Government hopes the elected commissioners will be more accountable to the public,

but the opposition parties say they're expensive and unnecessary.

Arwyn Jones reports.

GLAS Y DORLAN THEME SONG

-VOICEOVER:

-Why not join one of Britain's modern police forces

and enjoy a satisfying career?

It's unsurprising that the lives of police officers have changed

since the time of PC Gordon Hughes and Sgt Ifan Puw in Glas Y Dorlan.

What? She hasn't...?

I'll be there now, sir.

Over the years, the relationship the police have with their communities

has faced many challenges, from the Brixton riots in the early '80s

to the poll tax protests a decade later.

The UK Government plans to create a commissioner for every force in England and Wales.

They will appoint the Chief Constable

and set the force's budget and priorities.

Two have already been linked with Dyfed-Powys Police,

but we can now reveal that the leader of Pembrokeshire Council

also has his eye on being a commissioner.

I have an interest. That interest goes beyond party politics.

I've always made it clear

that I feel the commissioner should have an arm's length approach -

an arm's length from political parties

and an arm's length from political influence.

It wouldn't be an easy job, despite the salary of over £60,000.

The Liberal Democrats don't plan to put any candidates forward.

Labour will have candidates despite disagreeing with the policy.

And Plaid Cymru say you, the public, should stand.

We've called on the people of Wales to unite with us

if they believe, for example,

in eventually devolving responsibility for the police.

If they believe in taking politics out of this field,

we're asking anyone who's willing to work with us

and stand independently, we would support them if they are suitable.

I have been considering it but I don't think we will.

There are plenty of other people who can represent our ideas.

And who better to choose the Conservative candidates for Gwent Police

than the MP who is also a policeman?

It's very important for the commissioner

to have the necessary political and communication skills

and to be accountable to the public.

At the same time, I'd like to see someone

who is independent of the democratic process.

The challenge for the commissioners will be to steer clear of political interference

but, needing £5,000 to stand and thousands more to campaign,

there are accusations that people can only stand with the support of a party.

If you look at Dyfed and Powys, there are around 200,000 homes.

If you spend 50p on communicating with every home, that's £100,000.

That's beyond being affordable for an independent individual.

The UK Government says the aim is to make the police more accountable

but the critics say it's expensive and pointless.

Being a police officer can be a difficult job.

It's unlikely the commissioners' jobs will be much easier.

Arwyn Jones, there.

Alun Michael, you've expressed an interest in one of these jobs

but it's difficult, as a party, after opposing this idea,

to offer yourself as the person who can make it work.

Not at all.

We said the Government had decided to spend a lot of money on this new idea,

which has not been tried anywhere else in the world.

But that decision has been made.

We'll find these individuals

and they will be given very important responsibilities.

We need people who are experienced enough to answer to the public,

which is part of the idea,

but also who have enough knowledge of the way policing works

to be accountable.

For example, the most important thing the police do is to cut crime

and make people safer and feel safer on the streets and in their homes.

That's very important.

How much of a distance should there be between

the elected commissioners, be they politicians or not, and the parties?

People would expect some kind of independence.

Yes, but there is independence.

I was the Policing Minister for a period of time

and you've got to concentrate on being accountable to the party

on the policies of cutting crime

and making sure the police are independent

in the way they do their job.

You have to go after issues like accountability, efficiency,

co-operating with local councils, listening to what the public say

and, to a degree, you have to stand by the party's principles.

You can't have a democratic situation without the parties.

All of the parties are very important.

Gwynedd Parry, is this a problem - the arm's length business?

If the process demands all this funding,

they clearly need the support of a party to find that money.

Does this bring politics into policing?

There's a danger.

There's a conflict between the commissioners being independent,

not being political and thinking about the wellbeing of the community

and the role of the police in maintaining that

and the problem that a private individual,

as Cllr John Davies said,

can't carry out an effective campaign

across a wide area like Dyfed-Powys.

Those two things are pulling in different directions.

You have to compromise and find a middle-ground between those two poles.

I think the political parties have a duty to choose their candidates carefully,

to understand the size of the task and the nature of the responsibility

and to make sure the candidates will have respect.

If an agreement can be reached between parties,

that would answer some of this political problem.

Where do you stand as a party, Helen Mary Jones?

Elfyn Llwyd said, no thanks,

but the Liberal Democrats are not going to put candidates forward.

They won't fund them, anyway.

As a party, you don't agree either, but you are going to work with candidates.

Well, we don't agree with Westminster

but we've been sending people there on behalf of Wales for a long time.

As Alun Michael said, you can oppose the idea initially,

but, once it's in place,

you have to use it in the most effective way.

We have said we don't want to see this sort of job created.

We've invited people to talk to us

to see whether we can support an independent candidate,

but we'll have to agree on issues to do with policing with that person.

They wouldn't have to support independence for Wales,

but we'd expect them to support the devolution of policing,

which is very popular within the police service.

We're trying to keep party politics out of the process but...

That bring politics into it, if they must support devolution.

But not party politics.

If we can't find the right partner in each seat,

we'll have to fight as Labour are doing.

Alun Michael, back in the '90s you were very close to Tony Blair

when he created the slogan, tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime.

Is there a danger here when you look at voters,

what they want are people who only want that first bit, tough on crime.

They don't want people, perhaps, who look at the reasons.

If you ask the people who have had the experience,

for example Victim Support, what they said,

and I will quote what we heard at the Home Affairs Committee,

"What victims want is to know they won't become victims again."

The things that work, just as Robert Peel said

when he established the police force,

is to make sure that fewer crimes are committed,

and fewer people experience those situations.

That's one of the important things we have to understand.

Also, crimes are different in different areas.

If you look at South Wales, the commissioner will have to look

on things that happen in Swansea, the valleys

as well as the rural areas,

to make sure things are fair right across the board.

If you look at an MP from any party,

after being elected on the platform and the promises made by that party,

they work for every single constituent.

One of the problems that isn't clear

and is a good example for a devolved police force

is to what extent will the commissioners be answerable

to the Home Office?

That's where the money will come from. It all comes down to money.

The government says they want them to be independent

but say they run the service that isn't wanted...

They're going to be caught in the middle and pulled in all directions.

The commissioner is answerable to a panel,

they are answerable to other people.

The Home Secretary can interfere in some situations.

Perhaps that's not all bad.

There are checks and balances across the board.

Maybe that's a good thing.

But what will happen, Gwynedd, if the door is opened,

as I mentioned to Alun Michael, on a populist candidate

that promised to be tough on crime and criminals

and concentrating on locking up as many people as he can?

Are you confident that people like that won't be elected?

-If they are, what happens then?

-Exactly.

That's why we can't avoid the reality that the main parties

have to take responsibility.

I don't think you can't stand back and hope for the best

and hope that things work out. You have to put a candidate forward

and explain what they're standing for and support their candidacy.

The parties have to come out and support their candidates,

he or she is talking sense.

That's exactly what we're trying to do in Plaid.

We're looking for partners who stand as independent

but who agree on our basic policies.

If it will be successful, we don't know yet.

Should Wales have its own legal system, separate from England?

It's been this way in Scotland and Northern Ireland for years but what

are the arguments for and against having jurisdiction for Wales?

Who better to summarise than two solicitors.

The argument is, it is a matter of common sense.

If you've got different laws within a region,

then you must have law courts that has authority with that region.

The All Wales convention report said in their opinion

the courts were suitable to consider cases from Wales and England,

and European if need be.

If people who appear in court in Wales

are to receive the best service,

they need to make sure that the judges who listen to their cases

are judges who are experts in Welsh law.

If you are solicitor who practises in trade,

the brand of being a solicitor in England and Wales

is very important to us

especially if we're dealing with international business.

I wouldn't want us to lose that for trade reasons.

My personal opinion is we need to put plans in place now

to have a system that works on a practical level,

rather than waiting until it's reached crisis point

and trying to control the situation then.

I think that it's suitable for the courts' constitution

to acknowledge what's happened with devolution.

But it's a big thing to split the union between England and Wales.

Helen Mary Jones,

is this the next natural step in the process of devolution?

It is one of the steps. Issues on finance is also important.

But as one of the solicitors said, once a body of law is developing

and we'd see it developing very differently

between England and Wales, you need a system of judges and courts

that understand that legal system.

It's simple for me, we need judges who know what's going on here.

Gwynedd, it's possible to look at everything through this

constitutional perspective with more and devolved areas.

Doesn't common sense just say, there aren't many Welsh laws,

there isn't much of a Welsh legal system,

there won't be for another five, ten, fifteen years.

Shouldn't we use common sense?

Northern Ireland didn't draft any specific laws for quite a while

but the authority there remained independent between 1972 and 1999.

Both things aren't co-dependent

and the Jones Parry report was correct in that respect.

What we've got here is an opportunity in Wales

to put our constitution in order.

As Carwyn Jones said, and he's said this more than once,

he isn't aware of any other devolved region in the world,

in federal countries like Canada or Australia,

where there isn't a separate legal system

that works with the local legislation.

We in Wales are acting unnaturally if you will.

But there's no need to do it now.

Isn't it time to allow this corpus to develop?

The decision was made by the Welsh people last year.

They want legislative devolution.

It is an issue which we should now address in a reasonable manner.

A gradual process of devolution has been happening

within the administration of Welsh courts over the years.

Alun Michael, wouldn't this just be devolution through the back door?

No, I believe this is the correct process.

Things are being devolved over time. That is how it should be done.

It is a complicated question.

It is a question of where should Welsh laws

and decisions about them be made.

I also believe things will change over time.

We will have to look at the details

and ensure we do the most effective things.

If things are rushed through, which we have seen being done,

the whole system can be changed and it will take some time,

or years, to get things running properly.

I believe the way things are happening, people are moving

and systems are moving through a process of devolution.

It doesn't just happen at a certain moment,

it takes time to develop an efficient system.

Alun Michael is correct, we don't want to rush things.

But I am aware of one case where a problem has occurred.

A judge was supposed to be looking at people's rights to care,

but he wasn't aware that people's rights were different when it

came to costs and how much could be raised in Wales compared to England.

One of the lawyers stood up

and informed the judge of the mistake he was making.

But I believe, regarding the point made in that clip,

we need plans to be made now as more developments take place.

But I must add that the legislation process is very slow.

But it can never be completely clear.

We have seen examples in Scotland in recent years.

They've had a separate system in Scotland for centuries.

People have gone to the Supreme Court to challenge

some of the things that have been happening in Scotland.

You cannot separate them entirely.

No, this isn't an attack on the state.

It has nothing to do with the state.

The Supreme Court is the Supreme Court of the UK.

Appeals from Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and England go there.

This isn't a promise of a radical change.

It is just a matter of putting the constitution in Wales in order

and getting the right structures.

Helen Mary Jones, what would the ideal model be,

to go the whole way or nearly the whole way, as we see in Scotland?

Or are we talking about a model like the one in Northern Ireland,

where there is less devolution.

I would say we have to take it step by step.

We would like to move towards the Northern Ireland model.

As devolution develops, if we get devolution of the police,

law and order, we can then move further forward.

You would of course expect me to say, the sooner, the better.

We chose tonight's topic, but some people will think

they're talking about a process once more.

Politicians worry about devolution, people worry about jobs.

That is what people are really concerned with.

Is there an obsession with processes here?

I have to say that I believe the argument

is heading in the correct way.

We need to do things over time, to ensure things are effective

and take things step by step.

You chose this topic.

Jobs are disappearing at Peacocks, which is based in my constituency.

That is a heavy burden on local people

and that is what people are talking about on the street.

But we must also, as politicians,

and people who work with the law, make sure that we move

in the right direction and we must make sure that things work properly.

But once again,

these issues of process actually affect people's lives.

If a mistake was made in the case I referred to

and someone lost their right to get the care they were entitled to

under Welsh law, that would have had a direct effect on their life.

That is happening because the link between North Wales and Chester

has broken since devolution. Things are changing.

They have to as we react to a new situation.

Once the body of Welsh law grows,

we will need more judges who understand it properly.

But I must add that judges aren't perfect.

In the British system, we were the first individuals as Ministers

to have to carry out jury service at a court in London.

Things aren't perfect. There are problems and mistakes are made.

It is important that we made sure judges who come from any place

understand how things are developing in Wales.

Is this change inevitable?

Of course it is. I believe it's time we moved on regarding this matter.

We have been dragging our feet for long enough.

We'll see. We have some interesting years to look forward to.

Thank you very much for your company tonight.

That is it for tonight. We shall be back at 9.30pm next week.

-Until then, good evening.

-Good evening.

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