Wed, 1 Feb 2012 CF99

Good evening. Welcome to half an hour of discussion in the Senedd.

Tonight, happy birthday to Cymdeithas yr Iaith,

but at 50 years of age, does it need to change its priorities?

And the new captain is at the helm,

but what sort of journey will it be for S4C?

If you want to join in, use Twitter # CF99.

Joining us tonight are two Assembly Members, Suzy Davies

from the Conservatives and Rhodri Glyn Thomas from Plaid Cymru.

And Bethan Williams the chair of Cymdeithas yr Iaith.

Cymdeithas yr Iaith is celebrating its 50th birthday this year.

Since the society was established in 1962,

the status of the language has grown significantly.

Welsh is an official language seen on road signs and forms

and Welsh-medium education continues to grow.

Elliw Gwawr asks what the role of the society has become.

"Tynged yr Iaith" - Saunders Lewis.

In his speech on the future of the language in 1962,

Saunders Lewis created a very bleak image

of the future of the Welsh language was created.

Following the flooding of Tryweryn,

there was concern among some Plaid Cymru members

that the current system wasn't a success.

His revolutionary message inspired the creation of Cymdeithas yr Iaith.

One of the society's first protests took place on this bridge,

but 50 years later, are those methods of campaigning as effective?

Over the years, the peaceful protests have been a key aspect

of the Cymdeithas yr Iaith campaign.

They have led to a new Welsh language signs

A Welsh language Bill and a Welsh language channel.

Protesting and giving people a chance to get involved

is vital to Cymdeithas yr Iaith.

We can't see young people being inspired to fight

for the Welsh language by just contributing money to the cause.

If we want to nurture a new generation of campaigners,

who will ensure the Welsh language goes from strength to strength

they have to be part of a new generation of campaigners.

Are there lessons to be learnt from other language organisations

in other countries, like Catalonia?

They were very aware of the importance of strength in numbers.

They used a lot of images.

They created an image to promote public awareness of the language.

There wasn't much use of direct campaigning,

But some within the society say that Saunders Lewis' message

still reverberates today.

The challenge is that we face a situation

where many concession have been won in terms of status.

Welsh has official status for the first time.

But we will see in the consensus figures

a fall in the number of Welsh language communities.

We will see it getting weaker as a social language.

As Cymdeithas yr Iaith celebrates its 50th birthday,

is the revolution over or is the future of the language

still at stake?

As a child who remembers the speech as a child.

The comparison between 1962 and now is incredible, isn't it?

We live in a different world in terms of the language.

Completely different.

At that time, we thought the Welsh language was going to die.

The situation of the language was so fragile.

Within the context of minority languages in Europe,

Welsh is not that strong.

When we looked back at the sixties, we thought the Welsh language

could disappear as a language that was used every day.

We still face a number of challenges,

but they are completely different to the ones that existed in those days.

One thing that doesn't exist any more is the public

and open criticism of the language.

That kind of criticism, especially by public bodies

is no longer acceptable.

Welsh has been accepted, but there is a danger in that.

Fortunately, there is goodwill towards the language.

We need to channel that to ensure the survival of the language

to get it towards Welsh medium education and Welsh language media

and build on what's happening with S4C.

We need it to be a language that is alive

and people use it in their daily lives.

Bethan Williams, that footage was from before you were born.

Are protests and campaigns still at the heart of the society?

It is an organisation that has evolved over the years?

The organisation has evolved over the years

and I wouldn't disagree with Rhodri Glyn Thomas.

The video referred to the census figures.

We are not an organisation that stands still.

We had foreseen a fall, so, last year,

we launched and broadcast a lecture,

which acknowledges that the last 50 years of campaigning

has meant that we are now in a situation

where we no longer need to ask whether the language has a future,

but what sort of future it will have.

But should Cymdeithas yr Iaith cosy up to the institution?

You don't seem to be lobbying Westminster any more?

What we have here is an Anglicised system.

We don't want to be part of the English system.

We have always been an organisation that is on the outside and lobbies.

We have stuck to that vision.

If Welsh is going to flourish, things have got to change.

That includes institutions that have been moved from London to Wales.

Suzy, what do you make of this? As a party you have changed.

People would say that the public sector has changed.

Is there an element that the Society is missing a trick here?

They are banging on doors where those doors are open.

There is still a place for Cymdeithas yr Iaith,

but it depends how they move forward.

Having listened to Bethan Williams, there seems to be a change

of focus on the way forward and the way they are going to campaign.

They are going to concentrate on communities

and be apart from everyone else.

But this worries me. To safeguard the language,

she doesn't have to stay at arm's length.

I don't think that is necessarily a good thing.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas, you have been on both sides of the fence,

you were on one of those protests, walking from Bangor to Cardiff,

but you have also been a minister meeting with Cymdeithas yr Iaith.

Looking at it as a minister, what would your advice be for the future?

I don't think it is my place to advise Cymdeithas yr Iaith.

People have got to realise you need to transfer it

from one generation to the next.

The worst thing is when people go through these experiences,

trying to tell people in the younger generation what to do.

But do they get your attention?

Yes, and I would never oppose direct action.

People have to accept those results.

That is what happened when I was protesting.

That is what still happens.

I think that is very important, but there has been a change.

Devolution has happened.

A situation has exists where Plaid Cymru

has been part of the Welsh Government.

I am not sure during that time,

whether Cymdeithas yr Iaith managed to deal with that change

where they were working with ministers,

who had the same belief as them.

And there is a difference between a situation

where there were a Welsh Secretary and questions over the mandate.

The mandate came from the UK Government level,

but you are now dealing with a Government that has been elected

by the people of Wales.

At the end of the day, that Government has a mandate to govern

and no group has the right to say whatever your mandate is

you have to do this or that.

That's democracy, of course, and that's why I'm worried

about what the Society is saying at the moment.

Going back to 'Language, Housing and Work'.

In a way, it's an old fashioned message.

The way of campaigning has changed, you talked about Twitter earlier.

and people have to be clear about what exactly you're aiming for.

The point you're making there,

that we haven't got to grips with devolution, I would argue with that.

You could argue that the Welsh Language Society

is one of the only organisations within Welsh society

that has got to grips with it.

We got the language measure on the legislative programme.

We came up with a draft measure, a measure with clear policies

and one that was completely workable.

We did that through lobbying.

But can I raise one point that Menna Machreth suggested there,

that you need the protests to recruit the next generation.

That's what attracts people to the organisation

and if you became too respectable, and you'd get old,

and Bethan Williams would still be the Society's chairperson

even though she's the same age as me, or even Rhodri Glyn.

That's part of the appeal for young people

who want to join the organisation but that's because

they want to make a difference and see that difference.

Lobbying, in all honesty, you write the odd letter

and get a response, but that doesn't inspire people.

It doesn't excite people. It doesn't interest people.

They don't see the difference they're making.

By being part of campaigns and protests,

by seeing that difference in front of their eyes,

that's when they're inspired to keep going.

Although it's young people that we attract,

a lot of people stay with us

and they gain confidence and experience and they develop.

-Are you still a member, Rhodri?

-Yes, I'm still a member.

Unlike Suzy, I think 'Language, Housing and Work'

was the best strapline the Welsh Language Society ever had.

I think that's extremely important.

When you link language, housing and work,

and communities, those are the most important things.

Thank you. The new S4C boss, Ian Jones, is facing quite a challenge.

He's been on deck for a week now and he takes over

after one of the most difficult periods in the channel's history.

I talked to him this morning

and asked him if he felt there was a need to reconnect with the audience.

A lot of research has been conducted during the last year

and that's the basis of the new schedule

that will be published on March 1st.

It's the vision for 2012. The timetable will change.

A lot of new and exciting things will appear

and there will be some old favourites there.

But for me, we have to do more research.

I'm in discussions at the moment with the Assembly

to look into doing some joint research

on the requirements of Welsh speakers now and in the future.

How do you see the relationship between S4C and BBC Wales developing?

There are possible savings that can be made

but some people are concerned about S4C's independency.

I'm looking forward to holding discussions with the BBC

to see how we can cooperate.

We could share resources,

and I think in the current economic climate,

that would be a wise thing to do.

With regard to the frustrations of the viewers,

does that mean it might be possible to access

the internet's Welsh content, for example, in one place

instead of having to back and forth between the BBC and S4C websites?

Things that are frustrating for people at home.

I think we should look at everything.

We should look at sharing resources.

-Sharing a building?

-I think we should look into that.

Erm, I don't know what the BBC's plans are locally,

but there's a very good centre which has opened in the Bay.

I've agreed with the Controller of BBC Wales

to look at a feasibility study

to see whether it makes sense for us to look into sharing resources.

Does it make sense to be located in the same place in the future?

Every option is on the table at the moment.

You talk about working with the BBC,

the other body chief executives have had problems working with

is the S4C Authority.

Are you confident that is going to be a healthy relationship?

I have had a long chat with every member of the Authority

since I started seven days ago.

I've had a very positive response from all of them.

I've been given support by all of them.

They have been great during the first week and a half.

I've been employed to work with the internal staff,

the independent producers, the shareholders, the BBC,

to help take S4C into the next exciting chapter in its history.

I was a member of the team which launched S4C 29 years ago.

I remember the first night as if it was yesterday.

A group of us stayed in the kitchen at Sophia Close

to watch Owen Edwards walking down the stairs

and introducing the new channel for the first time.

And so, almost 30 years later,

S4C is still here.

We're producing good programmes, we have strong talent,

internally and externally,

and I think it's very important that we are open,

that we work with everybody, internally and externally,

and that we communicate well.

But we need to have the confidence and ambition to try new things

and to be forthright in the way we do that.

Ian Jones speaking earlier.

Bethan Williams, he says every option is on the table.

More cooperation with the BBC, possibly sharing a building.

Is the independence of the channel safe in his hands?

I welcome the fact they have appointed someone,

but one thing I would say to Ian Jones

is that they need to show more backbone and spirit

in relation to the BBC than they did during the S4C campaign.

The BBC will contribute a lot of the funding towards S4C

and the mindset that the BBC is taking over S4C is still a concern.

But he's new blood.

He made a point in the interview that he's looking to the future.

He doesn't have the baggage of the mess that was left.

And that's a good thing.

In terms of what he said about working with the BBC, are you happy?

We've said from the start that it's a concern

that the BBC will contribute so much money to S4C.

They have undermined our campaign to save S4C

by agreeing to that deal.

But, as he said, this is a new start and we hope they'll do that.

One of the other things we are still calling for

is to devolve powers over S4C and media and broadcasting in general.

I would urge Ian Jones to join us in the campaign

for the devolution of those powers to Wales.

Suzy Davies, we have discussed the independence of S4C,

but, as a viewer, doesn't it make sense for Radio Cymru,

for example, to work with S4C?

You don't see many adverts for Radio Cymru on S4C and vice-versa.

That's common sense, isn't it,

if we can safeguard the independence of S4C at the same time?

We're all keeping an eye on that.

As Bethan has said, it has been a cause for concern for many of us,

but there is also a practical issue.

They have to work together

and they have both said they want to work together.

Ian Jones talked about cooperation because it's the only way forward.

It gives S4C a future, so S4C saved itself by agreeing to it.

But people would say that the track record of the BBC

in terms of what has happened to English-language services in Wales

and Radio Cymru, the BBC can't pretend it's been fully behind

Welsh-language broadcasting over the last 20 years.

That's why it was important to have S4C.

The channel has an opportunity to ask others to contribute,

so it's a matter of plurality.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas,

you've called on every member of the Authority to resign.

Here comes a breath of fresh air,

a new boss saying he's met them all and everything's fine.

-Where do you stand on that?

-Well, he would say that

but I think it would have been a very good thing.

We have a relatively new chairman, a new chief executive

and it would have been good if the Authority resigned.

If people feel they have a contribution to make

they can stand again, but it's a new start.

I think we need a new start.

What Bethan said is true.

We've been through a very difficult time with S4C

and we've got to move forward.

Having a new Authority would be a breath of fresh air

and would move S4C forwards.

As a former Minister,

would you fear for the independence of S4C

if they shared a building with the BBC?

I think we've got to accept that the BBC and S4C

have got to work together,

but we need to ensure that S4C retains editorial independence.

The channel also needs the freedom to continue.

We need to safeguard the independent sector,

not only the sector itself, but for the benefit of creative industries

which are very important to the economy of Wales.

If we move to a situation where BBC decides

the easiest and cheapest way to do things

is to do everything internally within the BBC,

that would damage the Welsh economy.

We have to protect against that.

But we all knew that media evolves.

Even Cymdeithas Yr Iaith is launching its own video channel.

We don't know what the technology will be.

We don't know whether we will be discussing television channels

in five years' time.

We may only be discussing content accessed in different ways.

That's right and S4C needs to be part of that.

Just as S4C was responding to the demand

for a Welsh-language television channel,

people are now demanding modern, online content.

S4C needs to respond to that.

What about the Welsh language on S4C?

We've heard criticism that the Welsh on S4C is too complicated.

-Too formal.

-Too formal.

Does the nature of the language need to change?

S4C needs to return to its roots

of being a completely Welsh-language organisation.

We've raised this with Huw Jones

after hearing that S4C send notes to Assembly Members in English.

That's not acceptable.

S4C needs to be a Welsh-language organisation

and needs to ensure that Welsh is the main language of the channel.

Suzy, what do you think about the language that's used?

I tend to agree with Ian.

I know people, particularly in South Wales,

who occasionally find it difficult to understand Newyddion, perhaps,

and feel it's not their Welsh that's being heard.

I don't think I agree with that.

As someone who watches S4C, I hear accents from all over Wales,

including Mid Wales and that is a good thing.

For people who aren't fluent and are learning Welsh,

that's the challenge for the channel.

I have enjoyed the adverts about Denzil from Pobol Y Cwm

which have been on BBC, for example.

That is just one way of attracting people to the channel.

I'm not sure how often Denzil has to die on S4C,

but I agree with Suzy.

This is nonsense about Welsh.

What about the English we hear on the BBC

and all the accents they have.

Welsh, like every other language is a natural language.

This idea that people don't understand the accent

in the north or the south, that is an old fashioned view.

It's about communicating in a natural way.

And someone once said, no-one would blame the English

if they didn't know what the International Monetary Fund did.

But they'd blame the Welsh for not understanding "Cronfa Rhyngwladol".

Lord Rees said, "What's the English word for entrepreneur?"

Right, thank you for your Twitter messages tonight.

Hywel says, "An interesting chat comparing the 1960s to today."

And a message from MarshallMedia,

"I rejoined Cymdeithas Yr Iaith last year after a break of 20 years."

And on S4C, Lleu says, "Leaving the past in the past

"is going to be very important to Ian Jones' success."

-Thank you very much. See you next week.

-Goodbye.

.