Wed, 8 Feb 2012 CF99

Good evening and welcome to a special edition of CF99,

the first chance to hear live on television

from the three candidates in the race to lead Plaid Cymru.

Welcome to you three - Dafydd Elis-Thomas from the Dwyfor Meirionnydd constituency,

Elin Jones from Ceredigion,

and Leanne Wood, who represents the South Wales Central region in the Assembly.

And you're also welcome to join in through Twitter, hashtag #CF99.

Leanne Wood, by the way, will contribute bilingually tonight,

and will be getting simultaneous translation through an earpiece.

Let's start with the opening statements.

One minute each, please, starting with you, Dafydd Elis-Thomas.

This is the hardest election I think I've ever stood in,

and I've stood in several elections over the years,

because you're appealing to the Plaid Cymru membership,

which is nearly 9,000.

But despite that, the job is a very public one,

which involves communicating with all of Wales.

What I've been trying to do is convince the party membership

that they have to think of the election

as an election which is not just for them, but for all of Wales.

That's quite a difficult project, because what tends to happen is that in an internal election,

is that people tend to support the faction within the party that they're most comfortable with,

rather than thinking about who is the most effective public face

to communicate on behalf of the party in a wider sense.

I hope to develop that argument further,

about the nature of leadership, over the next few weeks,

beginning tonight, perhaps.

A perfect minute, Dafydd Elis-Thomas. Thank you. Elin Jones.

I want Plaid Cymru to be a party that speaks to everyone in Wales,

which intends to govern Wales,

and intends to turn Wales into a successful, independent country.

Plaid Cymru's ambition is a radical one,

and I want to see us as a party which is bolder in our politics,

but our politics also need to be practical and relevant

to people's everyday lives.

I've put my name forward to be Plaid Cymru leader

because I think I have that right mix

of experience, character and ambition for the job.

But I'm offering myself for the job not only to be Plaid Cymru leader,

but to be a challenge to Carwyn Jones and the Labour Party,

because I want Plaid Cymru's next leader, whoever he or she may be,

to be the next First Minister of Wales.

Elin Jones, thank you very much.

-They're good so far, aren't they?

-Yes, they're keeping to time.

Leanne Wood, your minute, please.

I stand for true independence, not just independence,

true independence - independence to sort out our economy,

to sort out our communities, and to sort out unemployment.

We have to build our communities as well,

and if communities succeed, Wales succeeds.

Leanne Wood, thank you very much.

We heard the word "independence" from Leanne and Elin Jones, and Dafydd Elis-Thomas,

you say you're comfortable with the word by now.

But what does it mean?

What's important is the Scotland has shown the way with this.

Alex Salmond has a very clever cabinet, not just himself,

they're very intelligent people and good advisors who have tested these things,

and they've set a question,

and hopefully they'll get permission from the UK Government

to determine their own future and ask their own question - that's an important principle, I think.

But the question will be, "Should Scotland be an independent country?"

That proposition will then be followed by a campaign explaining its meaning.

An independent Scotland, for the SNP,

clearly means the Queen of Scots,

that sentence has been heard a lot in Holyrood,

and then the pound.

So the definition of what an independent country would be is constitutionally quite clear.

What I'm emphasising in terms of Wales

is that the only independence possible for any country in the 21st century

is independence which is interdependent

within a federal Europe, therefore transforming the United Kingdom to be part of a federal Europe.

That's not very different to what I've been saying over the years.

And on independence, Elin Jones, you've set a timetable -

two elections with two victories for Plaid Cymru,

that is, two victories as a single party or as part of a coalition,

what would the details be for that timetable?

The first job for Plaid Cymru to do

is to define exactly what we mean by independence,

our path, our route map to independence,

and I'd want to see Plaid Cymru doing that within the next year,

then selling that vision and making it relevant to the lives of the people of Wales,

and winning the mandate and the support of the people of Wales to eventually hold a referendum.

Two victories as a government.

Scotland did that, of course, the SNP, on the basis of a minority and then a majority government.

The SNP wanted to hold a referendum in their first term, didn't they?

They didn't see the need to wait for two elections, but they didn't have the numbers in parliament.

Well, I can't see how we can be a majority government by 2016,

-winning 31 seats by 2016...

-Is that a majority? 31?

-Yes, it's a majority in...

-But it's not a stable majority for the Assembly, over five years.

-And for a government, 31...

-Let me bring Leanne Wood in here.

You're much clearer on independence.

What will you do with this independence argument? Are they in favour of independence?

Well, I think we have to connect independence with the economy,

we have to prioritise the economy now.

People can't see the light at the end of the tunnel,

so we have to offer hope to the people of Wales,

and we have to show everyone how true independence will help them.

How would independence mean economic growth?

Well, jobs, we have to create jobs in our communities,

and if communities are strong, Wales is strong.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas, Leanne Wood links the economy with independence.

There's no doubt that if you go out and about

that the economy is the important thing for the people of Wales.

What is your economic message?

Well, what kind of economy?

I place a strong emphasis, and I've been doing this work for some months,

as chairman of the committee responsible for the environment and sustainable development,

and I'll be in Machynlleth, as it happens,

at the Centre for Alternative Technology,

discussing this exact subject, which is how we create more green jobs,

how we create more jobs within the energy industry,

how we develop sustainability, and also, I have to say,

how we create low-carbon jobs in Wales,

including investing significantly, which is necessary,

in the nuclear industry.

Because it's important that we have a mixture of energy sources

which will grow the Welsh economy,

and it's also important that we have energy distribution that will work,

and we need to find green jobs, especially scientific green jobs,

I've been talking even today to Welsh Water, who are developing in this direction.

So within green jobs, even in a difficult economic time,

there's scope for creating new jobs.

Let me ask another question, as Dafydd has referred to nuclear energy,

Galw Gari Tryfan on Twitter says,

"Which of the candidates support Wylfa B,

and another power station at Trawsfynydd, if that was possible?"

Dafydd?

I am entirely in support of creating jobs

in the energy industry in North Wales, and that means Wylfa B.

I've been in discussions with Kevin McCullough, the chairman of Horizon,

about this issue during the last week, and I'm looking forward to the announcement

on what kind of reactor there will be.

In terms of Trawsfynydd, we've had an announcement from the minister from that area.

There's already a renewable power station on that site,

and there's no certainty about how we can develop this,

but there will be a special regime for the park and development.

Elin Jones, on nuclear power.

I'm not in favour of nuclear energy,

and Plaid Cymru isn't in favour of nuclear energy.

You'll lose Anglesey if you carry on that way, I have to say.

If the Westminster Government decides to introduce a new reactor on Anglesey,

then I certainly believe that agencies and authorities

should work to ensure that those jobs are for young people

in the building and on the reactor in the long term.

But we have to prepare for that now.

So I do believe that we need to be proactive with that,

but no, there are alternative choices to nuclear energy

which are also low-carbon, I don't disagree with that,

and there's a great deal we should be prioritising here in Wales in that renewable energy sector.

Leanne Wood, on nuclear?

I don't agree with nuclear power,

but we have to create jobs on Anglesey.

In the last year, I wrote the Greenprint for the Valleys,

which is a plan for renewable energy in Wales,

and also conserving energy.

Let's mention another question that came through Twitter,

related to independence, if you like,

what would Wales's situation be in relation to the monarchy?

Leanne Wood, a question from Hen Goes,

"The next time the Queen comes to visit the Senedd, where will you be?"

I'll be there.

But having boycotted it in the past, if you were party leader,

would you meet the Queen?

Well, the job of Plaid Cymru leader -

the leader of Plaid Cymru has to represent Plaid Cymru,

so if I'm the leader of Plaid Cymru, I'll be there.

But what about all your supporters who are perhaps glad that you're a republican?

Where do your loyalties lie then?

Well, we have to concentrate on independence,

so the question of the monarchy is second fiddle to this.

So you're very happy to meet Mrs Windsor, then?

-Well, perhaps not very happy, but I'll be there.

-Dafydd, you were shaking your head.

Well, I don't understand that attitude.

I think it shows a lack of respect towards the establishment of the Assembly,

that people are willing to turn up when they have jobs, but aren't willing when they're AMs.

Elin Jones, do you want to say a word on that?

Well, I in my job as an AM represent people in Ceredigion,

and it was my priority to be there on the Senedd opening day

when I'd just been elected to it.

I'm a republican,

but campaigning for some republican Britain isn't a priority for me.

My priority is to campaign and ensure that Wales is an independent country,

and Plaid Cymru has to keep its focus on our own core campaigns,

not fighting other people's battles.

Before we move on, Leanne Wood, Alex Salmond has said very clearly

that the Queen would remain Queen of an independent Scotland.

Would that be the arrangement in an independent Wales under Leanne Wood?

Well, Plaid Cymru's policy is to have a referendum, after independence, on the monarchy.

As in Scotland.

Let's move on. Two questions which are perhaps connected to each other.

Iwan Rhys says, "For Plaid Cymru to grow into the biggest party in the Assembly,

"it has to win seats, mainly from Labour, in the South Wales Valleys and in the North East."

"Are you the right candidate to attract those voters?"

But Tecwyn, on the other hand, says, "How will you appeal to voters

"who are conservative with a small "c", who are so key in seats

"like Anglesey, Aberconwy, Carmarthen West,

"Preseli Pembrokeshire and Clwyd West?"

So it's a simple question in one sense,

how do you widen the party's appeal? Elin Jones to start.

Well, widening the party's appeal isn't just a matter of geography,

but widening it on matters which are important to people of Wales, wherever they live.

Yes, we need to win more seats, and a wide range of seats,

not just in one particular place in Wales,

so these matters are important, ensuring we prioritise those issues

which are important to people in their everyday lives.

As you haven't let me contribute on the economy question,

I'd say here that the economy is of course the priority at the moment,

Wales's recovery from the current slump,

and myself and others have ideas on how to do that,

but we have to make sure that Wales becomes a country

where we're not at the bottom of the world economic leagues, but that we rise up from there,

and I want to see us having a second industrial revolution, based on our natural resources,

and Plaid Cymru has a role to lead on that economic debate.

We don't see it coming from the Welsh Government or Westminster either.

Back to increasing the party's appeal, Dafydd Elis-Thomas, how would you do that?

I think we have to talk to all of Wales all the time.

I've always opposed this idea of prioritising constituencies.

I have the privilege to live part of my life in the Vale of Glamorgan

and part in Snowdonia, and I travel across Wales regularly.

I'm very familiar with the country, and I think it's very important

that we present the same message everywhere.

I'm also very aware that there are hundreds,

possibly a couple of thousand, of conservative Welsh people

who vote for me as their local member in Dwyfor Meirionnydd,

and I won't stop looking after those people as well.

This comes up in Dr Eurfyl Ap Gwilym's report

about the state of the party, and it talks about the party's image

as being a party only for Welsh speakers.

Would Leanne, then, be a great asset to the party

in terms of widening its appeal?

Well, it's not as if all candidates are bilingual and lucky enough to be raised bilingual,

and I'm very happy to see Leanne playing such a lively part

in this programme, and I encourage AMs at all times to do what I do,

which is speak Welsh in the Chamber every time I open my mouth.

That's something it's easy enough for me to do,

because I established the custom as Presiding Officer,

but I think it is important that we use Welsh,

but also appear to be reasonable.

After all, we live in a bilingual country.

We're ahead of Germany, if I may say.

We're a bilingual country in the United Kingdom and in Europe.

Leanne Wood, on the language, are you perhaps worried

that Plaid Cymru is seen as a party only for Welsh speakers?

Well, I come from the Valleys,

and I can talk to people in the Valleys and the North East as well,

and we have to break through in the areas where the Labour Party succeeds.

On the matter of the language, well, I'm learning Welsh,

I feel strongly about matters of the language,

and activists from Cymdeithas yr Iaith, the Welsh Language Society,

help us with this campaign, so I just try to speak Welsh, as I am now.

Elin Jones, I saw on some of Plaid Cymru's blogs,

people complaining about this idea of a double Ceredigion leadership.

How does that widen the party's appeal?

Well, the party's appeal is appealing to the people of Wales

that we are the party to give priority

to matters which are important to them,

and to give the country an ambition which is important to them.

I don't think it matters which language the leader happens to speak or not speak,

and I don't think people worry about that.

People worry about the party that will give leadership to this country,

and leadership in the right direction,

and certainly the party which will get us out

of the economic hole we're in at the moment,

and see us becoming an economically successful country.

You as a party have had a taste of government here, Dafydd Elis-Thomas.

In terms of your position on coalitions in the future,

we know you're perhaps keener than some for a remarriage with the Labour Party.

I don't want to marry the Labour Party,

-I'm happy enough with Mair Parry Jones, thank you very much!

-LAUGHTER

But why?

Well, because we want to be realistic in this situation, we're facing local elections,

those are the important elections this year.

We're already in coalitions in government and cabinets across Wales with different parties,

and at one point, in the county I live in, in Conwy,

we were even in coalition with the Conservative Party.

We're with Labour at the moment and the Liberals.

So many things are possible, and therefore I want to be practical,

and I think it's important that people contribute

to the government of their country, and that's the function of a political party.

Does that include allying or forming a coalition,

under any circumstances, with the Conservatives?

No, it doesn't. It depends on the situation, as well.

The only circumstance where I'd think we needed to discuss things with the Conservatives

would be if Labour had seriously lost power in Wales, that people had voted against them,

but I think it's important, if I may say, going back to what Leanne said,

it's a mistake to concentrate on Labour alone to try to gain support,

because look at what the SNP did in Scotland.

That is, they've taken votes from the Conservatives and the Liberals.

Leanne Wood, coalitions, where do you stand?

Well, I don't want to go into coalition with the Tories,

they're toxic in many places in Wales,

so we have to rule out a coalition with the Tories.

But I think now that Plaid Cymru needs to take stock,

to build the case for independence, it's hard work, and there's...

But would a coalition with Labour in the future be possible?

It's possible, but what is the programme?

I want to see the programme before making a decision.

Elin Jones, it's fair to say that you were quite a fan

of the Rainbow Coalition when that idea was around.

It was a different situation, of course,

because the Westminster Government was a different colour,

but would you be willing to go into coalition with the Conservatives?

Well, I think firstly that we as a party

need to put something of a stop to this obsession we have

of defining ourselves in the context of other parties,

-and we need to concentrate on what we...

-But people will want to know where you stand on the matter.

But not four years before an election, if I may say.

Now isn't the time to be discussing

what the politics in four years could be,

because things can change significantly,

and who is in government in Westminster is important

in terms of any discussion with Plaid Cymru, because, of course,

one of the things we want to see as Plaid Cymru is more powers being devolved,

and that can only be approved by the Westminster Government,

not by any relationship with the Labour Party here during the next few months.

Right, if you could change one thing about the party,

the way it works at the moment, Leanne Wood, what would you do?

Um... Sort out the economy.

Well, in terms of the party, I think the thing we'd need to do

is use the 7,900 members we have now, and focus all their enthusiasm

on this aim of developing our economy

and becoming a party which promotes economic strength for this country,

and also the main focus,

which is to aim for that independent, successful country.

And Dafydd Elis-Thomas?

The first thing I'd do is to hold a campaign to lower the voting age,

because I learned a lot in the period before the referendum,

when I was communicating on social media with young people and so on,

and I think we have to animate our democracy.

I don't think we've got 8,000 members, we haven't touched Wales.

We need a crusade, in that sense, to open our politics out to people,

and I think the fact

that we have an election amongst our members is fine,

but many more people in Wales should be able to contribute

to the process of choosing a leader for 200,000 voters.

A final question for you before we go, one by one,

Leanne Wood, would you be able to co-operate well

with either one of the other two if they won?

-Both.

-No problem?

-Yes.

Elin, would you be willing to serve under Leanne or Dafydd?

I've worked alongside Leanne for eight years, and Dafydd for nearly 12 years,

and I hope to do the same thing in the future.

But there would be no place as deputy leader. That's already been designated.

Yes, it'll be up to the Group members, of course, to decide who the deputy leader will be.

And Dafydd, would you be happy to serve under either of these?

I've had the pleasure of working alongside everyone in different ways,

and I look forward to continuing to do that.

There's so much work to do, including with people from other parties.

-Right.

-Right, well, the discussion's nearly over,

so let's take a moment now for closing statements from each of you.

Half a minute this time,

starting with you, Dafydd Elis-Thomas, once again.

-I have to start again, do I?

-Yes, you do.

-Well, let me close like this, then.

The important thing we're facing at the moment is getting leadership which will move Wales's situation,

which will face the situation and the need to create real jobs,

and especially, will take care that Wales isn't pushed to the edge when the people of Scotland answer "yes"

to the question of whether they want to be an independent country, and I can't wait to do that job.

Dafydd, thanks very much. Elin Jones, half a minute.

Well, we are facing a situation where there's a possibility

that the United Kingdom will come to an end in 2014,

and Plaid Cymru has to be ready to lead the discussion

about what Wales's context is in that future.

Plaid Cymru needs to be realistic, remember.

Things that happen in Scotland won't necessarily happen in Wales,

and so this party has to be ready to argue strongly for the future of our country,

and take the opportunities which are ahead of us.

Right, exactly half a minute.

-And the last word tonight, half a minute for you, Leanne Wood.

-Thanks.

Well, the problems with the economy are very, very great,

we need to connect the economy with independence, and now is the time.

We, Plaid Cymru, have to argue the case for true independence.

Thank you very much to you three,

and thanks very much to Leanne Wood, as well, for being brave enough to take part in this experiment.

I'm not sure if it's the first debate to use simultaneous translation,

but you managed to get through it all in Welsh, so thank you very much.

Yes, thanks to all three of you. That's it.

We'll find out who won, of course, on March 15th, so plenty of debate still to come.

There's no programme next week, by the way, the Assembly's in recess,

but we'll be back in a fortnight.

-Thanks for your company and goodnight.

-Goodnight.

-Goodnight.

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