Wed, 22 Feb 2012 CF99

Good evening and welcome to the Senedd for half an hour

of live and lively discussion.

Tonight, does Labour have a mountain to climb on a council level?

And following the banking bonuses row,

we turn our attention to a very different type of bank,

the food banks which are on the rise here in Wales.

If you want to join in on tonight's discussion,

you're welcome to do so via Twitter by using the hashtag #CF99.

Joining us tonight is Llanelli's Labour AM, Keith Davies,

policy director at Plaid Cymru, Nerys Evans

and the Conservative Dr Felix Aubel.

Welcome to you all.

In 10 weeks' time, local elections are to be held here in Wales.

The Labour party will be eager to build on its 2008 performance,

when it lost six councils in its traditional strongholds.

Quite a blow. And there was more to come.

A year later Labour was usurped

as the main party in the European elections.

And in the 2010 general election they received another kick

as they saw their lowest share of the vote

since the end of the First World War.

Last year, the party's fortunes were reversed

as it enjoyed its best ever Assembly results.

James Williams take as look at how the party is looking

in the run-up to the local elections.

The south Wales valleys,

the spiritual home of the Labour Party

and party greats such as Keir Hardie,

Aneurin Bevan and Neil Kinnock.

The party had its roots in the heavy industries,

which have since disappeared.

Apparently, when Labour was at its strongest in the Valleys,

they weighed their votes rather than counting them.

But those days have gone.

The party can no longer take votes

in areas such as this in Caerphilly for granted.

This became clear on May Day 2008,

when the political landscape here changed colour

for the first time in a generation.

The party lost control of six councils that night.

With Blaenau Gwent, Caerphilly,

Merthyr Tydfil and Torfaen escaping their grip.

As the first local elections since then are about to take place,

the party conference took place in Cardiff over the weekend

and members were full of confidence ahead of the forthcoming challenge.

When we received a beating in 2008,

we had been in power in Westminster for 11 years at the time.

It's natural that people use the council vote as a protest vote.

Now people are seeing what's happening with the

Labour Party out of power in Westminster.

They want them to return and they trust Labour on a local level.

Some say, the result in 2008 was a result of Gordon Brown's leadership.

The decision to get rid of the 10p tax rate was the most damaging move.

That's how a Labour MP who opposed the policy saw the situation.

These days they are concentrating on the current government policies.

The 10p tax was one of the factors

but I think people are now seeing that the whole picture.

They are seeing they are losing money from their pockets.

They can see that the Conservatives are cutting too much,

too quickly and too deep.

In his speech to the party,

the Labour leader Ed Miliband praised the party in Wales

for deviating from these policies.

Standing up for Wales is certain to lead to success

in the May elections, according to some.

People are feeling confident because of what we're doing as a government

here in Wales and we are showing the way to Britain,

showing people what we can do in government in Wales.

We are showing what Labour can do.

We're showing that there's an alternative

to what the Conservatives are offering in London.

I think that will be transferred onto the vote.

Ed Miliband also praised Carwyn Jones personally.

He leads the only Labour Government in Britain.

He led Labour to their best performance

since devolution in the Assembly last year.

Ed Miliband is struggling to communicate his vision to votes.

Will Ed Miliband's leadership problem for candidates

when they campaign on the doorstep?

Ed is a good leader.

He's an honest leader, he's growing into his role

and people have confidence in him.

We also have Carwyn Jones, he leads us in Cardiff,

he is our leader in Wales.

He's highly respected by voters.

The challenge for the party is to build on its success of last May.

It's expected they will do so in a couple of months.

Some believe more will need to be done

than simply regaining traditional strongholds.

We're keen to ensure that we don't remain

in our traditional strongholds, we need to go into rural areas

and gain support from everywhere, rather than those strongholds.

As recent history has shown,

Labour can't take Valleys votes for granted.

James Williams.

We'll look at all the parties

and their hopes for the elections in turn.

Keith, in the olden days, it is was easy.

If Labour were in Government in Westminster, you lost council seats.

If they were the opposition party in Westminster, you won them back.

It's different this time, there is a Labour Government,

the Labour Government in Cardiff?

I think that will help us.

I lost my seat in 2008 as a councillor in Carmarthenshire.

The main reason was what Nia Griffith was referring to,

the 10p in the £1 on income tax.

We also heard a lot about Iraq and Afghanistan on the doorstep.

Now we have a Government in Wales and we can legislate in Cardiff.

I must say, our manifesto last year was very good.

That's why we won so many seats.

This was sent in on Twitter, by Cath.

She raised the question of the Prince Phillip Hospital.

I don't want to go into that specific issue.

But if the people of Llanelli

blame the government for the hospital's issues,

it's Cardiff Bay responsible for that decision, not Westminster?

I accept that.

We haven't finalised plans yet.

The Hywel Dda health board doesn't have any plans in place at all.

You were protesting against these nonexistent plans!

We want to register our views before the strategy comes out.

We want to keep most of the services as they are.

Now there's more expertise in the heath service,

we need to ensure that what's being offered is safe,

is affordable and is accessible for people.

The point being made is that some voters might use the election

as an opportunity to give the Cardiff Bay government a kick,

not the Westminster government.

We will have to accept that.

We make the decisions here in Cardiff.

If people aren't happy as a result,

they have a chance to vote whichever way they choose.

I must say the promises we made last year, we are keeping those.

That is why we won last year. I hope the same will happen this year.

Nerys Evans.

Carwyn Jones spoke at the weekend

and urged some Plaid Cymru supporters to defect to Labour.

"They've lost their way with this independence issue."

Are you worried?

I'm not surprised he's trying to reach out to Plaid Cymru supporters.

The Welsh Labour Party is lacking vision

and it doesn't have a plan in place for Wales.

We've seen that with lack of evidence for the Silk Commission,

looking at the future of devolution in Wales.

We've seen a lot of different things regarding how much devolution

Wales should have, according to the Labour party.

There is a lack of vision for the nation.

I think that's where the Labour party in Wales is lacking.

That's why I think party supporters won't respond to this from Carwyn Jones.

But it's natural for him to try and reach out to the party's supporters.

I don't think the vision is there for Wales

and the future of Wales from Labour.

We'll go back to 'delivering' in a moment,

but we'll bring you in, Dr Felix Aubel.

If people don't want to give the Labour Party in Wales a kick,

I'm sure some will want to give your party a kick in Westminster.

Is that going to be a problem?

I foresee Labour and the Conservatives winning seats

in these county council elections.

-From who?

-The simple fact is that Labour were unpopular in 2008.

As Keith said, Plaid Cymru won a lot of seats in the Llanelli area.

I see Labour winning them back.

And in rural areas like mine in Pembrokeshire and so on,

a lot of the independents there are standing as Tories.

It's a question for all of us, really, whether we in a period

where there's more pluralism in council elections?

There was a time when Cardiff council, or South Glamorgan,

moved back and forth between Labour and the Conservatives.

There are more independents in urban areas nowadays.

There are Lib Dems and Plaid Cymru members on the councils.

Are we going to find ourselves in a situation where there's some movement

but the old days of Labour superiority in many areas

is not going to continue?

Yes. We've got a more pluralistic element, here.

It's remarkable that there are more independent councillors

in Wales than there are of any other political party.

That's not true in England or Scotland, by the way.

What's important is we have more party politics.

That brings in discipline where people act as a group,

rather than as individual councillors.

That's why I welcome the amount of Conservatives

standing as Conservatives this time, rather than independent candidates.

I hope that will be true of other parties as well.

Back to Labour, Keith,

and Nerys's point about delivering and vision.

This is a regular criticism of the Government here,

and it does hurt.

It presses an uncomfortable button for you as a party?

I don't see it like that.

We have a programme of Government.

It's clear and we're starting to bring in new legislation.

We have support from all sides.

As far as devolution, what vision do you have?

What do you want to see in Wales?

What is your vision as far as evidence from the Silk Commission?

The Conservatives are even talking about more devolution.

The Labour Party has gone silent.

You haven't introduced a single measure since the last election.

We have. We have.

Interestingly, Peter Hain was speaking

at a fringe meeting recently.

He said that the Assembly group

needs to ensure they don't do the same as what happened in Westminster,

with the Government becoming too managerial.

That is what some within the party believe.

The Government has been in for 12 years,

either alone or in coalition.

Maybe it's become something that's just running Wales

without much vision or communication?

Since May things have changed. We can legislate.

We are preparing Bills coming in, social services, for example,

housing, it's in the programme of government.

We are not chasing independence. That is what Plaid Cymru want.

If that's what they want, they need to say they want independence.

Then we'll see what the people of Wales want.

But the thing is, Labour is in power in the Assembly.

If people are not happy with the Labour programme,

they have a clear choice.

If you don't want Labour, you must vote for the Conservatives.

Voting for Plaid Cymru is a waste.

We're talking about local elections, do we have to be like this?

I must say one thing,

I'm glad to hear these independents

out in these rural counties are now showing their true colours

and saying that they are Conservatives.

So Peter Hain was right? Would you agree that Peter Hain was right?

Some people are independent and are truly independent,

and they are not members of any parties.

We know there is a tradition of people, who are not Labour,

they are either old Liberals or some used to be Plaid Cymru

and there are Conservatives

standing under this umbrella of independence to keep Labour out.

Most of them act like a party with a leader and a whip

to make sure everyone votes in the same way.

That's what happens in Carmarthenshire.

For once I do agree with Peter Hain, that many of them are Conservative

and that the Labour party joins them in coalition.

THEY LAUGH Let's not go into that.

How many of you have changed your eating habits

as a result of feeling the financial pinch?

According to National Office of Statistics figures,

the average family spends £35 less on a weekly food shop

compared to before the recession.

While most of us are counting the pennies,

for others the reality is much more serious,

with more people turning to food banks for assistance.

Janet Ebenezer reports.

There's nothing new about food banks.

Volunteers and charities have been feeding the poor and homeless

in our cities for years.

What is changing is the type of person relying on this

service for their daily bread.

The first food bank in Wales was established in Ebbw Vale

around four years ago.

The charity running the centres has seen sweeping changes,

especially recently.

We expect it to increase more and more

throughout 2012, because more people are feeling the strain

on the money in their bank accounts.

If there is an emergency such as the boiler breaks,

or the car breaks down,

many people can't buy their way out of an emergency

and they need help from a charity such as the Food Bank.

According to the trust there was an increase of 50%

in the number of people collecting food parcels in Ebbw Vale

over Christmas and New Year.

In Cardiff, the increase was even bigger, 100%.

According to the latest figures for the end of the financial year,

13,000 people will have used food banks in Wales.

This is the food parcel.

It's enough food for one person to eat healthily for three days.

The Trussell Trust, which organise the charity,

is warning that this year will be even tougher.

With more people utilising food banks,

there is more pressure on this service.

What is the reason behind it?

And should society be relying on charities to keep people healthy?

I think there is a greater need for help from charities

because we are facing difficult economic times.

And we've been in this situation for a few years already.

These charities provide some sort of answer.

There is support available from charities.

Public services might not be able to help

because of the cuts in spending and in budgets.

We're also seeing unemployment levels rising to over 9% in Wales

and on top of that, we are seeing people who have jobs

having to turn to charities for help.

They are being pushed into poverty.

Should more wealthy citizens be lending a hand?

Historically there was more philanthropism.

Look at people like Wellcome, Ford,

Rockefeller, Carnegie.

And in this country Nuffield and so on.

These days there's Albert Gubay.

He's a Welshman from Rhyl who made a fortune

and is now giving it all away.

On the other hand, there is evidence that, on the whole,

certain people are keeping their money.

Only 1% is given away to charity.

I don't think that can be justified.

Some might argue that it's strange when banks and bankers,

who were blamed for much of the financial crisis are succeeding,

while more and more ordinary people are relying

on the charitable donations of the food banks.

Nerys Evans, you've worked in the charity sector since leaving here.

Is it surprising for you that 13,000 people in Wales

are relying on charities for food

and the welfare state isn't offering that support?

It is a surprise, it's good that we have these charities to help.

I think this raises basic questions regarding the role of government

and the role of the benefits system.

The minimum wage and benefits are insufficient

for people to live on these days.

I think the debate we've had about the situation,

the economic situation and the bonuses and over-paying people

has dominated the debate.

We should be looking back to the principles of the welfare state

and seeing whether benefits are sufficient for people today.

And are there further cuts to benefits to come, Felix,

for many of these people that depend on food banks.

It's important to note that people are socially responsible

and prepared to donate goods to these charities

and we also need to look at some of these supermarkets.

There is a lot of food waste.

This idea that you buy one and get another free,

and so on, most of it is wasted.

If you give food to a food bank, then they give it to someone

who is employed full-time, what you are doing, basically,

is subsidising employers who aren't paying sufficient wages?

But if someone's working in the private sector,

the government can't step in.

We are not living in the Soviet Union or Eastern Europe

where Big Brother was in charge.

But we have a minimum wage.

It's obvious if someone is working full-time and cannot afford to put

a plate of food on the table, then that minimum wage is insufficient.

Yet your party opposed introducing it in the first place,

and now they are reluctant to raise it?

I've always supported the minimum wage idea.

If the employer cannot pay the minimum wage,

that person should be an employee rather than an employer.

The truth is, what is important to note is that around 20%

of people working today receive below than the minimum wage.

Whoever is in authority, pressure needs to be put on these people

because workers aren't getting what they deserve.

Is it shameful for the Government in Cardiff

that 20% of people in Wales are living in poverty?

Yes. We are doing our best to try and support them.

We are still waiting for the poverty strategy. Where is it?

We are trying to create full-time jobs for the people.

We offer free breakfasts for children.

We have free prescriptions.

-They're available to everyone.

-I accept that.

It's more expensive to pick and choose who receives them.

Everyone benefits in the end.

By giving these things away for free,

you are giving them to the rich people rather than poor people.

It doesn't help poverty. What you need is to target poor people.

The fact is, wealthy people can pay for their own prescriptions.

That's true of the Westminster government.

David Cameron doesn't want to get rid of the allowance...

-What are you talking about?

-The allowance.

-Winter fuel, winter fuel!

-Winter fuel.

You had a big night last night!

The point is that we live in Wales

and Keith can say whatever he likes about Westminster,

but Labour is in power in Cardiff.

So give us an answer.

People are living in poverty because of the decisions made in London.

The benefits people are going to lose,

the I think things are going to get worse before they get better.

Who put Wales in debt in the first place? The Labour government!

Let's not go there. We were looking at them making soup in the film.

It looked like something from the 1920s.

We are seeing what is happening in Greece

is it possible, Nerys, that we're close to a precipice

where everything we've gained in society

over the past half century is starting to disappear?

We're coming to the end of this era?

It looks that way.

We need to have a debate on what kind of society we want.

There's been a dramatic redistribution

of wealth over the last 20 years.

The rich are getting richer and the poorer are getting poorer.

It's clear, from the evidence we've seen tonight,

that benefits and the minimum wage are insufficient

for a lot of people in Wales.

We need a debate on a living wage,

rather than a minimum wage, to tackle this.

To end on an ideological note,

is this a time for us to stop blaming people

and have a mature debate over the society we live in?

We are in this pickle and we need to clear the debt.

As people with credit card debts know,

if you don't pay the debt, it increases.

Unfortunately, Labour have left us in debt on a Westminster level.

I must come back in on this.

It's not just a problem for this country.

In Brussels this week, the Labour Party group decided

that more money is needed for 20 million people in Europe.

It's not just a problem for this country, it's worldwide.

We have to pay £120 million in interest back every day

because of the debt that was caused by Labour.

Thanks for that.

Let's finish with the sad news today that we've lost Emlyn Hooson,

one of the giants from the Liberal party in Wales.

Felix, do you remember him well from your days in the SDP?

I had a lot of respect for Emlyn Hooson.

I'm very sad to hear about his loss.

He was a gentleman in the true sense of the word,

he was a liberal in the Gladstone and Lloyd George tradition.

He helped me in the Cynon Valley by-election in 1984.

He was a Liberal that believed the Liberal Party should appeal

in industrial areas as well as rural areas.

He kept Liberalism alive from the '60s onwards

and I had great respect towards him.

Thank you very much. That's all for today.

Join us again next Wednesday night at 9.30pm.

-Until then, good night.

-Good night.

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