Browse content similar to 10/10/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to CF99. | 0:00:21 | 0:00:23 | |
On tonight's programme, David Cameron closes | 0:00:23 | 0:00:25 | |
the Conservative Conference insisting Britain is on the right track. | 0:00:25 | 0:00:29 | |
We'll be discussing his leadership and the future of his party. | 0:00:29 | 0:00:32 | |
Also, the fight for power in the Supreme Court. | 0:00:32 | 0:00:35 | |
The governments of Wales and the UK go head-to-head. | 0:00:35 | 0:00:39 | |
Joining is in the Senedd are Suzy Davies AM of the Conservatives | 0:00:39 | 0:00:43 | |
and the economist Dr Martin Rhisiart of the University of Glamorgan. | 0:00:43 | 0:00:48 | |
Hywel Williams MP of Plaid Cymru is in our Bangor newsroom. Welcome. | 0:00:48 | 0:00:54 | |
Well, after weeks of speeches, promises and the odd policy, | 0:00:54 | 0:00:57 | |
conference season is over. | 0:00:57 | 0:01:00 | |
The Conservatives were the last party to gather | 0:01:00 | 0:01:03 | |
and the messages in Birmingham this week were pretty serious. | 0:01:03 | 0:01:06 | |
More cuts, an economy to save and tough times still ahead. | 0:01:06 | 0:01:11 | |
But things used to be very different for the party, | 0:01:11 | 0:01:14 | |
as Arwyn Jones reports. | 0:01:14 | 0:01:17 | |
# Weren't they good days? | 0:01:17 | 0:01:20 | |
# Weren't they good days? | 0:01:20 | 0:01:24 | |
# Weren't they good days? # | 0:01:24 | 0:01:27 | |
The golden era for the Conservatives in Wales was surely the 1980s | 0:01:27 | 0:01:32 | |
when they won 14 seats | 0:01:32 | 0:01:34 | |
and nearly a third of the vote under the leadership of Thatcher. | 0:01:34 | 0:01:39 | |
Doesn't that please you? Doesn't it please any of you? Oh, cheer up! | 0:01:39 | 0:01:44 | |
But as the conference-goers flocked to Birmingham this week, | 0:01:46 | 0:01:51 | |
they were short of high spirits. | 0:01:51 | 0:01:55 | |
The economy is a mess and the opinion polls on the whole are limp. | 0:01:55 | 0:02:00 | |
The party faithful were informed by the Chancellor | 0:02:00 | 0:02:03 | |
that there are further cuts to come. | 0:02:03 | 0:02:07 | |
They say they were left a fragile economy by the previous Labour government. | 0:02:07 | 0:02:12 | |
But in order to try and give workers a boost, there was a new plan. | 0:02:12 | 0:02:16 | |
You, the company, give your employees shares in the business. | 0:02:16 | 0:02:22 | |
You, the employee, replace your old rights of unfair dismissal | 0:02:22 | 0:02:25 | |
and redundancy with new rights of ownership. | 0:02:25 | 0:02:28 | |
Get shares and become owners of the company you work for. | 0:02:28 | 0:02:32 | |
Owners, workers and the taxman, all in it together. | 0:02:32 | 0:02:36 | |
The opposition parties insist fewer cuts and more investment | 0:02:36 | 0:02:40 | |
are what is needed, but the Government is dismissing that. But it wasn't always that way. | 0:02:40 | 0:02:45 | |
The National Library archive shows different ideas. | 0:02:45 | 0:02:50 | |
This is a pamphlet by former chancellor Geoffrey Howe | 0:02:50 | 0:02:53 | |
and former MP Tom Hooson, written for the party back in 1959. | 0:02:53 | 0:03:00 | |
One of the points Jeffrey Howe made in this document in 1959 | 0:03:00 | 0:03:06 | |
was the Government needed to spend money | 0:03:06 | 0:03:08 | |
on things like road-building. | 0:03:08 | 0:03:11 | |
They talk about the M4 and building the Severn bridge, | 0:03:11 | 0:03:15 | |
boosting the economy, using Government money | 0:03:15 | 0:03:18 | |
and that of course, is very different from what George Osborne | 0:03:18 | 0:03:23 | |
and David Cameron said during the conference. | 0:03:23 | 0:03:27 | |
But the economy at the time was very different to today. | 0:03:27 | 0:03:32 | |
David Cameron said this afternoon that Britain | 0:03:32 | 0:03:35 | |
is in battle against other countries in terms of attracting businesses. | 0:03:35 | 0:03:41 | |
He said there are hard days to come but his message was hopeful. | 0:03:41 | 0:03:45 | |
Let us hear in this hall, here in this Government, | 0:03:45 | 0:03:49 | |
together in this country make this pledge, | 0:03:49 | 0:03:52 | |
let us build an aspiration nation. | 0:03:52 | 0:03:54 | |
Let us get Britain on the rise, deficit paid down, | 0:03:54 | 0:03:58 | |
tough decisions taken, growth fired up, aspiration backed all the way. | 0:03:58 | 0:04:02 | |
We know what it takes to win in the tough world of today | 0:04:02 | 0:04:05 | |
for all our people, to Britain for Britain, | 0:04:05 | 0:04:08 | |
so let's get out there and do it. | 0:04:08 | 0:04:11 | |
That was the secret of Margaret Thatcher's success, | 0:04:11 | 0:04:16 | |
appealing to the ambitious aspirational voters. | 0:04:16 | 0:04:20 | |
It'll be a challenge for David Cameron to emulate her success | 0:04:20 | 0:04:26 | |
but today he started his attempt to do that. | 0:04:26 | 0:04:32 | |
Suzie Davies, you were at the conference. | 0:04:32 | 0:04:35 | |
The word we have seen most is "flat." | 0:04:35 | 0:04:39 | |
It wasn't flat, but it was a sober atmosphere, | 0:04:39 | 0:04:43 | |
you are right to say that, but as you saw in that package, | 0:04:43 | 0:04:48 | |
at the end of the conference there was a sense of hope and optimism. | 0:04:48 | 0:04:53 | |
But it appeared to me as if David Cameron and George Osborne | 0:04:53 | 0:05:00 | |
were also risking everything politically | 0:05:00 | 0:05:02 | |
on the hope that the economy will improve. | 0:05:02 | 0:05:07 | |
Not just that there is no economic plan B | 0:05:07 | 0:05:09 | |
but there is no political plan B. | 0:05:09 | 0:05:11 | |
If the economy doesn't improve the party is in trouble. | 0:05:11 | 0:05:14 | |
I don't agree. | 0:05:14 | 0:05:16 | |
They said things are harder than people expected | 0:05:16 | 0:05:21 | |
especially in terms of what's happened in the EU | 0:05:21 | 0:05:24 | |
since the last general election. | 0:05:24 | 0:05:26 | |
But to change from that path now would be a problem | 0:05:26 | 0:05:30 | |
because the markets have said the only reason | 0:05:30 | 0:05:34 | |
they have to look at the UK at the moment | 0:05:34 | 0:05:37 | |
and keeping the cost of borrowing low | 0:05:37 | 0:05:40 | |
is that the coalition government is following this path. | 0:05:40 | 0:05:45 | |
It's worth remembering that the deficit the Government | 0:05:45 | 0:05:49 | |
inherited from the previous one was the biggest one in Europe. | 0:05:49 | 0:05:55 | |
But we've got the lowest borrowing costs. | 0:05:55 | 0:05:59 | |
Martin Rhisiart, is plan A working? | 0:05:59 | 0:06:03 | |
It's not working because we're in a double dip recession. | 0:06:03 | 0:06:07 | |
One of the things the Chancellor depended on | 0:06:07 | 0:06:12 | |
was that we'd come out of the last recession | 0:06:12 | 0:06:15 | |
and this austerity plan would work and the economy would grow. | 0:06:15 | 0:06:18 | |
2% was what they were predicting for 2012. | 0:06:18 | 0:06:23 | |
And we are ending 2012 having shrunk 100.4% according to the IMF. | 0:06:23 | 0:06:28 | |
So, it's not working and its ironic | 0:06:28 | 0:06:31 | |
that because the economy isn't growing, | 0:06:31 | 0:06:34 | |
it's taking away the Government's ability to pay back the deficit. | 0:06:34 | 0:06:38 | |
But some economists say there are signs of recovery | 0:06:38 | 0:06:42 | |
and that the green shoots are on the horizon, you don't? | 0:06:42 | 0:06:49 | |
There are some signs, but having said that, | 0:06:49 | 0:06:54 | |
if we take what the IMF said this week, | 0:06:54 | 0:06:58 | |
that we need to loosen this austerity plan, | 0:06:58 | 0:07:01 | |
they are now saying Osborne should change his plans | 0:07:01 | 0:07:06 | |
because it's affecting the economy's potential to grow. | 0:07:06 | 0:07:10 | |
I think they have to listen to that important message. | 0:07:10 | 0:07:15 | |
Hywel Williams, there's a difference between what you do in terms | 0:07:15 | 0:07:19 | |
of policy and how you present those policies to the public. | 0:07:19 | 0:07:22 | |
Perhaps George Osborne and David Cameron don't want people | 0:07:22 | 0:07:26 | |
to think they've changed the policy, | 0:07:26 | 0:07:29 | |
but they could change it in substantial enough ways | 0:07:29 | 0:07:32 | |
by saying they are adapting it to deal with circumstances? | 0:07:32 | 0:07:38 | |
I thought it was a very sober conference. | 0:07:38 | 0:07:43 | |
Sometimes I don't think I even live on the same planet as Cameron | 0:07:43 | 0:07:48 | |
and Osborne let alone the planet. | 0:07:48 | 0:07:51 | |
They are changing the policy due to some circumstances. | 0:07:51 | 0:07:55 | |
Harold Macmillan said "events dear boy" | 0:07:55 | 0:07:58 | |
about what drives the economy and they have to respond. | 0:07:58 | 0:08:01 | |
But that's different from having a plan thought out beforehand | 0:08:01 | 0:08:05 | |
and putting that into action quickly. | 0:08:05 | 0:08:07 | |
What is David Cameron's vision? | 0:08:07 | 0:08:11 | |
He's forgotten about hugging hoodies now and the "big society". | 0:08:11 | 0:08:17 | |
He seems to be changing with the direction of the wind. | 0:08:17 | 0:08:21 | |
He talks about constitutional change, | 0:08:21 | 0:08:26 | |
although he's signing an agreement with Alex Salmond. | 0:08:26 | 0:08:30 | |
He's changed emphasis. He was much better in his speech I thought. | 0:08:30 | 0:08:36 | |
Suzy, on that point, where is his vision? | 0:08:36 | 0:08:40 | |
I don't think it's changed at all. | 0:08:40 | 0:08:43 | |
Cameron's vision and that of the party has been the same for years. | 0:08:43 | 0:08:51 | |
We're talking about hard work. This was a central theme in the speech. | 0:08:51 | 0:08:55 | |
Personal responsibility as well and co-responsibility. | 0:08:55 | 0:08:59 | |
-That's Miliband's One Nation. -We mentioned the economy earlier. | 0:08:59 | 0:09:05 | |
What is the point in having a One Nation party that borrows money? | 0:09:05 | 0:09:09 | |
That's not the answer. | 0:09:09 | 0:09:11 | |
That's the Thatcherite message. | 0:09:11 | 0:09:14 | |
There's another tradition within the Conservative Party, | 0:09:14 | 0:09:20 | |
a tradition that uses Keynesen principles | 0:09:20 | 0:09:24 | |
that existed for decades from the Second World War. | 0:09:24 | 0:09:27 | |
Should the party start to question whether Thatcherism | 0:09:27 | 0:09:32 | |
is the only thing it has in its armoury? | 0:09:32 | 0:09:35 | |
Every party should look at their economic philosophy. | 0:09:35 | 0:09:41 | |
I think they are in a bit of a hole at the moment | 0:09:41 | 0:09:46 | |
because they've put so much emphasis on this rhetoric of austerity | 0:09:46 | 0:09:50 | |
and they don't think much beyond that. | 0:09:52 | 0:09:55 | |
We've seen economic circles talking about neo-Thatcherism | 0:09:55 | 0:10:01 | |
and neo-Liberalism in the '90s and today to some extent | 0:10:01 | 0:10:07 | |
but there are signs that's coming to an end. | 0:10:07 | 0:10:10 | |
Lastly, Hywel, would it be fair to look at these conference, | 0:10:10 | 0:10:16 | |
the speech that created the most impression was Ed Miliband's? | 0:10:16 | 0:10:23 | |
That was the most stylish. It was certainly better than Cameron's. | 0:10:23 | 0:10:30 | |
That was a one-trick speech. | 0:10:30 | 0:10:33 | |
At least Miliband talked about himself and outlined a vision. | 0:10:33 | 0:10:38 | |
Do you remember Leanne Wood's speech? | 0:10:38 | 0:10:44 | |
I do. She talked about One Nation and economic growth | 0:10:44 | 0:10:49 | |
and the green economy. | 0:10:49 | 0:10:52 | |
I could be here all night talking about that speech. | 0:10:52 | 0:10:56 | |
Suzy Davies, there was one element of the speech that surprised me, | 0:10:56 | 0:11:02 | |
Cameron doesn't talk much about himself. | 0:11:02 | 0:11:08 | |
Ed Miliband gave some narrative. | 0:11:08 | 0:11:10 | |
He talked about his son's death, but we haven't heard the story | 0:11:10 | 0:11:17 | |
before about his father and his disability anywhere before. | 0:11:17 | 0:11:22 | |
Was that a response to Miliband, with Cameron feeling | 0:11:22 | 0:11:27 | |
that he has to show that he's more than a caricature | 0:11:27 | 0:11:31 | |
of some posh boy, who only worries about posh boys? | 0:11:31 | 0:11:36 | |
He mentioned cartoon conservatives in the speech. | 0:11:36 | 0:11:42 | |
It was important for him | 0:11:42 | 0:11:45 | |
to show people how he deals with the problems we have at the moment. | 0:11:45 | 0:11:50 | |
He was completely clear that everyone has a chance to help | 0:11:50 | 0:11:56 | |
with their own future, for example, he talked about a million new jobs | 0:11:56 | 0:12:02 | |
from new companies coming in the private sector. | 0:12:02 | 0:12:07 | |
I'd like to know where they are in Wales, though. | 0:12:07 | 0:12:12 | |
But he was showing people that he wasn't a cartoon, | 0:12:12 | 0:12:15 | |
that he's a Prime Minister. | 0:12:15 | 0:12:17 | |
I'd like to compare him to Ed Miliband. | 0:12:17 | 0:12:21 | |
He explained to his party who he was. | 0:12:21 | 0:12:25 | |
He said that he was not here to defend wealth but to share it. | 0:12:25 | 0:12:30 | |
Are there any signs that this Westminster Government | 0:12:30 | 0:12:34 | |
is redistributing wealth? | 0:12:34 | 0:12:36 | |
I don't see many signs of that, to be honest. | 0:12:36 | 0:12:40 | |
Social capital has slowed down in the UK | 0:12:40 | 0:12:45 | |
as it has in the United States. | 0:12:45 | 0:12:47 | |
So, we seem to be stuck in terms of social capital | 0:12:47 | 0:12:51 | |
and people improving themselves. | 0:12:51 | 0:12:54 | |
What about the 2 million people that have come out of tax altogether? | 0:12:54 | 0:12:58 | |
Haven't they been given something by this Government? | 0:12:58 | 0:13:03 | |
They perhaps have, thanks to the Liberal Democrats. | 0:13:03 | 0:13:07 | |
It's a coalition government. | 0:13:07 | 0:13:09 | |
Well, when it suits them! | 0:13:09 | 0:13:14 | |
The UK and Welsh Government have been going head-to-head this week, | 0:13:14 | 0:13:21 | |
our Political Editor Betsan Powys was listening to the debate | 0:13:21 | 0:13:26 | |
and I asked her earlier to paint a picture of how things look there. | 0:13:26 | 0:13:32 | |
The High Court is a wonderful place with a high roof | 0:13:32 | 0:13:37 | |
and an expensive carpet, expensive statues and so on. | 0:13:37 | 0:13:41 | |
You have five judges facing 16 barristers and lawyers | 0:13:41 | 0:13:47 | |
and an audience of some with interest, | 0:13:47 | 0:13:51 | |
but the others were tourists looking confused when they left. | 0:13:51 | 0:13:55 | |
And some experts here and there, who were listening to this debate, | 0:13:55 | 0:13:59 | |
which was very detailed and technical, | 0:13:59 | 0:14:03 | |
talking about lords dancing on the head of a pib. | 0:14:03 | 0:14:06 | |
One Lord pressed forward and said even if the Secretary of State | 0:14:06 | 0:14:13 | |
had the right and he wanted to use that right. | 0:14:13 | 0:14:17 | |
If you were to deal with tattoo parlours in Swansea | 0:14:17 | 0:14:21 | |
and he couldn't think of another exotic place, | 0:14:21 | 0:14:24 | |
would you do that? | 0:14:24 | 0:14:26 | |
It was quite a performance very detailed at the same time. | 0:14:26 | 0:14:31 | |
It seemed surreal to me, we are talking about bye-laws | 0:14:31 | 0:14:37 | |
to do with toilets in Rhyl and tattoo Parlours in obscure places. | 0:14:37 | 0:14:42 | |
Why is the UK Government taking this so serious? | 0:14:42 | 0:14:48 | |
Can't they leave it? | 0:14:48 | 0:14:50 | |
That's why they have these occasional bits of conflict | 0:14:50 | 0:14:54 | |
but the point being made very clearly with thick files | 0:14:54 | 0:14:59 | |
and post-it notes everywhere, was that in the opinion | 0:14:59 | 0:15:02 | |
of the Welsh Secretary and the Auditor General | 0:15:02 | 0:15:06 | |
that it was all-important that the boundaries of devolution | 0:15:06 | 0:15:10 | |
are set as clearly as possible. | 0:15:10 | 0:15:13 | |
Perhaps it doesn't matter about tattoo parlours | 0:15:13 | 0:15:18 | |
but perhaps next time it would matter about something different. | 0:15:18 | 0:15:24 | |
The thing that surprised me was that the Welsh barrister was there | 0:15:24 | 0:15:28 | |
as well as the UK barristers, but also representatives | 0:15:28 | 0:15:32 | |
of the Northern Ireland Government, why was that? | 0:15:32 | 0:15:35 | |
There was a technical point there. | 0:15:35 | 0:15:39 | |
They felt if this was relevant to devolution in Wales, | 0:15:39 | 0:15:42 | |
the same point apply in Northern Ireland, | 0:15:42 | 0:15:46 | |
it was important that they gave their side of the argument, | 0:15:46 | 0:15:49 | |
as they might be in the dock next time | 0:15:49 | 0:15:54 | |
and it's possible we might be there again. | 0:15:54 | 0:15:57 | |
The suggestion today is that the Attorney-General | 0:15:57 | 0:16:01 | |
talks about the language equality measure. | 0:16:01 | 0:16:04 | |
We could be there again. | 0:16:04 | 0:16:06 | |
What hope is there for the organ donation measure? | 0:16:06 | 0:16:10 | |
That won't go through without the same kind of trouble. | 0:16:10 | 0:16:13 | |
And we criticised the first bill for being so easy. | 0:16:13 | 0:16:17 | |
It seems unambitious but it is in trouble. | 0:16:17 | 0:16:21 | |
It is difficult to imagine they will not look at that in great detail. | 0:16:21 | 0:16:26 | |
-Betsan there with her tattoos. -No chance! -Glad to hear it! | 0:16:26 | 0:16:32 | |
Suzy Davies, as a lawyer, is it disappointing to you | 0:16:32 | 0:16:37 | |
that judges in the High Court determine where power exists here? | 0:16:37 | 0:16:43 | |
To be honest, no. I'm not an expert on the constitution. | 0:16:43 | 0:16:48 | |
What's important to me is that if we're going to see laws | 0:16:48 | 0:16:51 | |
coming out of the Assembly, they have to be made properly. | 0:16:51 | 0:16:56 | |
If there are other opinions they have to be tested in court. | 0:16:56 | 0:17:01 | |
And that's what is happening here. There is more than one opinion. | 0:17:01 | 0:17:05 | |
Was there anyway they could have come to agreement before coming to court? | 0:17:05 | 0:17:10 | |
I think if there is a problem, | 0:17:10 | 0:17:13 | |
it's the best way to deal with it, by changing the law | 0:17:13 | 0:17:18 | |
to make sure that the problems are sorted. | 0:17:18 | 0:17:23 | |
Hywel, they told people at the time of the referendum that the old order | 0:17:23 | 0:17:29 | |
would go and there would be a simple system where everybody understood. | 0:17:29 | 0:17:35 | |
And now we have one law at the High Court | 0:17:35 | 0:17:38 | |
and talk of perhaps another one going there. | 0:17:38 | 0:17:41 | |
This referendum and the Government of Wales Act | 0:17:41 | 0:17:46 | |
was suppose to solve things, wasn't it? | 0:17:46 | 0:17:49 | |
That's what we thought but since then | 0:17:49 | 0:17:51 | |
we've had a new Welsh Secretary. | 0:17:51 | 0:17:53 | |
I don't know how much influence he had on this case. | 0:17:53 | 0:17:58 | |
I know David very well and I know he is a very careful lawyer | 0:17:58 | 0:18:02 | |
and perhaps he's pinpointed a weakness in the settlement | 0:18:02 | 0:18:06 | |
between London and Cardiff. | 0:18:06 | 0:18:09 | |
There's also a weakness in the same way between Barcelona and Madrid. | 0:18:09 | 0:18:13 | |
This is the kind of mess we are in. But we didn't explain this mess. | 0:18:13 | 0:18:19 | |
The language Equality Act, | 0:18:19 | 0:18:23 | |
the problem being raised by the UK Government | 0:18:23 | 0:18:27 | |
is that the Assembly can legislate on the Welsh Language | 0:18:27 | 0:18:30 | |
but as the act talks about the English language, | 0:18:30 | 0:18:34 | |
is beyond their remit. | 0:18:34 | 0:18:36 | |
This is ridiculous isn't it, | 0:18:36 | 0:18:39 | |
it doesn't change anything in the English language. | 0:18:39 | 0:18:42 | |
I would agree. There was an argue with committee members about this | 0:18:42 | 0:18:47 | |
and David was a member of the committee | 0:18:47 | 0:18:51 | |
that passed the right to Cardiff to legislate on language. | 0:18:51 | 0:18:55 | |
It was a hot topic then and it is an open question | 0:18:55 | 0:19:00 | |
because of the incomplete settlement we have. | 0:19:00 | 0:19:04 | |
And looking from the outside, Martin, | 0:19:04 | 0:19:08 | |
do you think this is a political game? | 0:19:08 | 0:19:11 | |
Would this happen if the governments were the same colour in both places? | 0:19:11 | 0:19:15 | |
It's possible but most people looking at the situation | 0:19:15 | 0:19:20 | |
would think the important point is whether the Welsh government | 0:19:20 | 0:19:24 | |
acts in a way which is consistent with the law | 0:19:24 | 0:19:28 | |
and the will of this Senedd. | 0:19:28 | 0:19:32 | |
I think the legal technicalities are being solved, | 0:19:32 | 0:19:36 | |
we need to know what the ethos of the law is that they are presenting. | 0:19:36 | 0:19:40 | |
There's always this conflict, | 0:19:40 | 0:19:42 | |
so what will the public make of that? | 0:19:42 | 0:19:45 | |
To some extent, this could be of benefit. | 0:19:45 | 0:19:48 | |
It's important that a more positive infrastructure is put in place | 0:19:48 | 0:19:53 | |
and there is understanding on both sides | 0:19:53 | 0:19:57 | |
about what is being presented from Cardiff | 0:19:57 | 0:20:01 | |
and what needs to be protected in Westminster. | 0:20:01 | 0:20:06 | |
Suzy, for people at home, hearing about these cuts | 0:20:06 | 0:20:10 | |
and worry being every penny they have going out, | 0:20:10 | 0:20:13 | |
Betsan Powys said there were 18 lawyers and barristers there. | 0:20:13 | 0:20:17 | |
They don't come cheap. | 0:20:17 | 0:20:20 | |
There are hundreds of thousands, | 0:20:20 | 0:20:23 | |
possibly millions of people who are wondering about this. | 0:20:23 | 0:20:28 | |
It's not going to make sense to the public, is it? | 0:20:28 | 0:20:32 | |
That is why it is important to get it right the first time. | 0:20:32 | 0:20:37 | |
If there is a problem with this, this is the chance to sort it out. | 0:20:37 | 0:20:41 | |
If there are more general problems with the Welsh Government | 0:20:41 | 0:20:46 | |
the Silk Commission has made the process of devolution much simpler, | 0:20:46 | 0:20:53 | |
so if we have problems with the legislation | 0:20:53 | 0:20:56 | |
we need to sort it out now. | 0:20:56 | 0:20:58 | |
And we need to see if there are problems in future | 0:20:58 | 0:21:01 | |
because we don't want to spend much money on mistakes in future. | 0:21:01 | 0:21:08 | |
That's fair enough, isn't it? | 0:21:08 | 0:21:11 | |
A precedent has to be set here and the Welsh Government has to be sure | 0:21:11 | 0:21:15 | |
that the UK Government isn't trying to gain power by the back door. | 0:21:15 | 0:21:19 | |
The principle has to be set | 0:21:19 | 0:21:23 | |
but it hasn't been completely agreed in the first place. | 0:21:23 | 0:21:27 | |
This is what happened, by the way, | 0:21:27 | 0:21:29 | |
when the Madrid decided it had the last word | 0:21:29 | 0:21:33 | |
over the Catalan Government. | 0:21:33 | 0:21:35 | |
As a result, 1.5 million people were out on the streets of Barcelona | 0:21:35 | 0:21:39 | |
calling for independence, so the principle is very important. | 0:21:39 | 0:21:43 | |
-Can you see that happening in Wales? -I'd be marching in the park. | 0:21:43 | 0:21:50 | |
Suzy, how do you get a system to stop this happening? | 0:21:50 | 0:21:55 | |
We know that the Wales Office has been flagging these problems | 0:21:55 | 0:22:01 | |
to the Welsh Government. | 0:22:01 | 0:22:04 | |
They have been saying that there will be a problem | 0:22:04 | 0:22:07 | |
and the Welsh Government has been saying things will be fine. | 0:22:07 | 0:22:10 | |
Some kind of civilised relationship is needed between the Wales office | 0:22:10 | 0:22:17 | |
and the Welsh Government to stop things like this from happening. | 0:22:17 | 0:22:24 | |
If there are two opinions on the law they have to be tested in court. | 0:22:24 | 0:22:30 | |
It's not just a matter of some kind of cosy agreement. | 0:22:30 | 0:22:33 | |
The law has to be established. | 0:22:33 | 0:22:36 | |
If there is more than one opinion on the law, | 0:22:36 | 0:22:39 | |
then they have to go to court again. | 0:22:39 | 0:22:42 | |
But would it have been possible for the Welsh Office to say | 0:22:42 | 0:22:45 | |
they were happy to yield these powers they had | 0:22:45 | 0:22:49 | |
and there wouldn't be a problem. | 0:22:49 | 0:22:54 | |
But they can't just agree to make things easier for people. | 0:22:54 | 0:23:01 | |
If the government has decided, then so be it. | 0:23:01 | 0:23:04 | |
But what if they want to keep this power? | 0:23:04 | 0:23:07 | |
But that is the situation with the law at the moment. | 0:23:07 | 0:23:12 | |
It's not a political matter. | 0:23:12 | 0:23:15 | |
It's a matter of law and it's important not to mix the two. | 0:23:15 | 0:23:21 | |
-Who will win, Martin? Any idea? -I don't know. | 0:23:21 | 0:23:25 | |
The barristers will win in the end with their fees. | 0:23:25 | 0:23:28 | |
-Would you agree with that? -A fool only goes to court. | 0:23:28 | 0:23:31 | |
I think it's much better to take the political route | 0:23:31 | 0:23:35 | |
but I'm a politician so I would say that. | 0:23:35 | 0:23:39 | |
Thanks for joining us. The ruling will happen at the end of the a week. | 0:23:39 | 0:23:44 | |
I think there will be a delay. I think the debate will continue | 0:23:44 | 0:23:48 | |
and constitutional theorist also absolutely love it. | 0:23:48 | 0:23:54 | |
Thanks to all of you. That's all for tonight. | 0:23:54 | 0:23:58 | |
We'll be back at the same time next week. Until then, good night. | 0:23:58 | 0:24:02 | |
Good night. | 0:24:02 | 0:24:04 |