30/01/2013 CF99

Good evening and welcome to CF99 live from the Assembly in Cardiff Bay.

On tonight's programme -

Lessons from the Education Minister.

Is the head teacher too strict or do schools need a hard boss

in order to improve?

And Cardiff Bay was supposed to be a haven of equality.

Why is there still a shortage of female Assembly Members?

There has been a reduction in the number of female AMs

and there could be a further reduction in the future.

You saw her outside there, but we've let her into the building now,

Nerys Evans, the former Plaid Cymru AM,

who now works for the Deryn public relations company.

We're joined by the Conservative AM for South Wales West Suzy Davies

and welcome back to Keith Davies the for Labour member Llanelli.

Thanks to you three for your company tonight.

Once again this week Leighton Andrews has been stirring things up

in the world of education.

One union has threatened to strike over the minister's plans

to improve literacy and numeracy skills.

Leighton Andrews has certainly been busy,

but his methods aren't to everyone's taste.

Here's Tomos Livingstone.

The best weapon is the weapon of education.

Nobody enjoys being at the forefront of education

more than Leighton Andrews.

Since starting the job three years ago,

the Education Minister has fought on several fronts.

Among his campaigns, he's put comprehensive schools into bands

depending on the attendance of pupils and on exam results.

Mr Andrews says these are not league tables,

but a clear instruction for the poorest performing schools

they need to improve.

Qualifications will be different to those in England.

The Welsh Government confirmed this week that GCSEs

and A-levels would continue in Wales.

There will be new national tests for younger children too.

The universities haven't been let off either.

A number of establishments have been encouraged or forced to merge.

I think, in my opinion, that Leighton Andrews is trying

to do too much in one period.

I think people within the education sector see

Leighton Andrews as quite aggressive as he tries to implement things.

I don't think that helps either.

Are all the reforms having an effect?

According to the exam inspection board, Estyn,

fewer schools received excellent reports compared to last year.

Wales is behind Scotland and England

in official comparisons of reading, writing and numeracy.

At least one union is threatening to strike.

One of the main problems teachers raise with us

is the change in the ethos of teaching in Welsh classrooms.

We see the Foundation Phase, which has an ethos of learning through

different things.

Assessments have now been introduced in primary schools

which goes against that ethos.

It creates a bit of confusion within the class and for pupils.

There's a risk that Wales will lose credibility

among those who look into it.

When you look at universities, especially in the Russell Group,

and the Welsh Baccalaureate as an example,

it's important that we don't make ourselves less of a nation

with regard to educational credibility.

Leighton Andrews is certainly a hard working minister

and stands out in a Cabinet, which some see, as rudderless.

Leighton Andrews is an experienced politician,

but a striking politician

especially when you compare him to the other AM's who have been there

from the start.

In the Labour ranks, after Rhodri Morgan and Carwyn Jones,

he is the most familiar politician, the one who has accomplished most

and the one who makes the most noise since the Assembly started.

Giving a speech isn't enough sometimes.

They had to change the thinking over closing smaller schools.

Attempts to merge the Cardiff Metropolitan University

with the sites in Glamorgan and Newport were in vain.

After a row over re-marking GCSE papers

Leighton Andrews wants to stop overseeing the exam system.

But the man himself is quite happy.

There are a lot of things to do.

We have introduced a new framework

to support literacy and numeracy.

We have invested in our schools.

We have introduced a new system to band secondary schools.

It's important we ensure that the system works hard for everyone.

More far-reaching changes are on the horizon.

Despite the protests of those working in the sector,

the Education Minister is not going to leave the political centre stage.

Tomos Livingstone there.

Keith Davies, I'm in danger of having a row from Leighton Andrews already,

let's compare him with Michael Gove.

Two education ministers, unhappy with the systems as they are

and two that are willing to announce things,

jump into all kinds of situations without caring

if they hurt people in the process.

I'm not sure about that. I wouldn't compare them.

This week they've been discussing about changing qualifications.

What Leighton Andrews offers in Wales, I accept that,

the unions accept it.

In England, the unions don't accept it.

I think he's on the right track.

Maybe he's going quickly, but maybe that's what's needed.

One of things Leighton and I agree on

is that 22 education authorities in Wales are too many.

You can't bring schools together.

You don't have the staff in the authorities.

So he's looking to form regions now.

But that's the point, that's what's interesting,

these regions were set up quite recently,

last September. Six months later, he wants to change them again.

I don't think so.

I think we have a framework of the regions

and what they have to do.

If we go back to 1996, we had three counties in west Wales.

Ceredigion, Pembrokeshire and Carmarthenshire.

The first thing we wanted to do was get a team together

to work for the three counties.

Carmarthenshire agreed, Ceredigion agreed and Pembrokeshire didn't.

What's happened now? Pembrokeshire has had a bad report.

The Estyn reports on the authorities now

not one of them are excellent.

Nerys, is he rash or showing strong leadership?

It was interesting to see Paul Davis saying he's doing too much.

I wouldn't want to criticise any politician of doing too much

these days.

He has tried to deal with a lot of problems in the education system

and it takes time to change structures.

I was the spokesperson for education during the coalition.

I worked closely with Leighton Andrews at that time.

We had a very constructive relationship

and we shared information and we brought Plaid Cymru policies in too.

But he doesn't mind making people angry.

He had a row with the Cardiff Metropolitan University for example.

With rows like that, some outside the bubble say

what right does he have to make decisions?

But we live in a democracy and the man has been elected.

Like it or not, Labour is the government in this place.

They have been voted in to make decisions.

That is what they are doing.

People would be critical if politicians

weren't making decisions, so it's a sensitive balance.

Suzy Davies what do you make of him?

Keith Davies and Nerys Evans seem to be fans.

I take it you're not.

It depends what you're talking about.

The one thing you can say about Leighton Andrews

is he has been busy.

From the Conservative benches we say that Labour is a lazy government

but Leighton Andrews has been busy.

The question is has he been too busy to check

whether what he's been doing is effective?

It's as if he's setting little fires all over the place

instead of having one big bonfire that works.

So you think he's rushing from one issue to the next?

He's jumping from one strategy to the other.

It's difficult for people to understand what he's doing.

There's a difference between leadership

and someone who ploughs through without taking people with him.

Let's take a look at some of the things he's done.

Banding.

I haven't met a parent who understands what banding is.

They don't understand how a school they consider is better

than a school down the road is somehow in a lower band

because he takes this and that into consideration.

It doesn't help parents, does it?

Maybe it helps the schools but not the parents.

That's a problem.

Looking at the banding and the way schools go into bands one or five,

it depends...

..on the results from the previous year.

It looks at attendance.

It looks at how many children have free school meals,

all these factors come together.

You put them all together.

I have to say, I don't see anything wrong with it,

as long as the bandings are put together correctly.

In the end, the education will succeed in schools.

But it doesn't help parents, does it?

Just because a school can go up a band by attracting more pupils

who have free school meals doesn't help parents.

The reason for including free meals

is it reflects the pupils' background.

If a school has 60% of pupils who have free school meals

and they have good results, that says a lot about the school

and the staff and that's what's important.

How will the school improve things?

Nerys, whatever we think of these league tables that exist in England,

they do help parents.

They might not be so good for some schools

when it comes to pushy parents

but banding isn't something the public understands.

No, I think it's a bit early yet and there are a lot of elements

in the mix about what banding means for parents.

People will compare schools through banding.

It's like the league tables in England.

Schools use it as beneficial or to try

and explain weakness in the system

and parents will take note of it as we tackle these bandings

in the next few years.

We don't know whether there will be a Cabinet reshuffle, Carwyn Jones

has suggested he won't rush to do that, but he will do it at some time.

Suzy, where next for Leighton Andrews?

Do you think he'll stay in his job?

He's too busy to be moved, that's the impression he's giving.

He's got too much to do.

Paul Davies said in that clip that he was doing too much.

I don't know what Carwyn Jones is thinking,

but people are wondering whether he'll do something soon.

Other members of the Cabinet don't compare to Leighton Andrews,

with regard to the amount of work they do.

Is he making other members of the Cabinet look bad?

I think he does. He shows weaknesses in other areas.

I think he will have to have some kind of promotion.

Obviously, education and health are the biggest portfolios.

It's difficult to see Carwyn Jones moving the Health Minister

because of the problems in the health industry.

It will be difficult to see what portfolio can be created

to attract Leighton from the education portfolio.

Here's an idea, Leighton likes education,

if the economy is the main political issue going on to the next

general election and Assembly election,

what about a job like a tsar for the whole economy?

If he got that job, I'm sure he'd do it well

and not like Angela, Suzy's colleague, calls Leighton

in nearly every meeting now - the new First Minister

We all know what happens to tsars.

Thank you very much.

The political parties need to ensure that more women are elected

to the Assembly according to the Presiding Officer, Rosemary Butler.

She has written to the leaders to urge them to take action.

But what happened to the Assembly being an example of equality

within the Chamber?

We asked one of our guests tonight for her personal perspective.

The Borgen drama which is shown by the BBC at the moment

shows a female prime minister in Denmark leading a coalition

has captured the imagination of many here in Cardiff Bay.

The Assembly Presiding Officer has written to the political parties

asking them to take action about female representation

here in the Assembly.

But what is the problem?

Before devolution the number of women politicians

was shockingly low.

Only 13 female MPs have ever represented Wales.

But with the Assembly

and because of internal policies in the parties,

the situation improved.

In 2003, the Assembly had 50% of women and 50% of men.

Wales was leading the way.

Since then, there's been a reduction in the number of female AMs

and there's a danger there will be a further reduction in the future.

We all have to discuss whether securing equality is something

we should aim for, ensuring that the chamber is a microcosm of society,

not just on the basis of age, ethnic background, disability and religion.

The problem is ensuring equality

sometimes goes against choosing people on merit.

Some believe the battle has already been won.

The burden of this falls on our political parties.

We need a discussion about the skills you need

to be a good politician.

The current culture puts emphasis on skills which are more masculine,

like being aggressive and arguing.

Are they the most important skills for a politician?

This is an important matter, not only for the Assembly,

but for businesses and other establishments.

They are losing out on a huge pool of talent by having leaders

with similar backgrounds.

Like devolution itself,

ensuring equality in our political process is a process

and not an event.

Right, we'll leave Nerys' message out of things for a while!

Suzy Davies, your party has never had a system to encourage women

and for a long time, there weren't any Tory female Assembly Members.

-Was the party at fault?

-There was some practical issues with that.

You have to have free seats for these women.

It depends who is in the seat at the moment,

if they've been there for a long time and they're not going to move,

there's no room for a woman to stand.

There are three of us in the group in the Assembly at the moment.

There was room and the women came in.

Is it important to you that there is equality around the 50% mark?

Yes. I think that anyone can represent people.

I think it's important to reflect the people you represent.

If a lot of people see a lack of women here,

they are right to ask whether we are talking about the thing

that's are important to them and are we listening to the voices of women.

This is a very important issue for us.

Keith, what about the point about the skills.

I watch the Assembly a lot.

People see what happens down in the chamber,

but I see a lot of the committees as well.

Those who shine in the committees

are not always the ones who shine in the chamber.

Maybe we don't appreciate some of the skills the members have.

They are not always to do with shouting

and screaming in the chamber.

Going back to the education system,

that's one thing Leighton Andrews is doing, is developing crucial skills.

Every child going into school now has to follow those courses.

Part of it is to debate with people

and talk in front of the class and so on.

I think we need more of that than there has been in the past.

What Nerys said was true about Plaid Cymru and Labour,

we ensure on every shortlist that there is equality.

But what you are doing is putting a plaster over it

because if you look at the councils and the council chambers in Wales,

there is a much worse inequality.

And the Assembly Members tend to come from that pool.

That needs to be worked on as well.

Look at head teachers, there are more and more female head teachers now

especially in the primary section.

You never used to have any.

Now, more and more are coming in.

But I think they do have to look at other people and say,

if she can do it, I can do it.

Sometimes, because women get married and have children

there's a period in their lives where they don't have the time.

We have to consider that when we appoint head teachers.

That is true, Nerys, isn't it?

If you look at the salaries of people in their 20s,

the salaries of men and women are more or less equal.

If you look at the salaries of people when they get to their 40s,

there's an inequality because of what's happened

in the lives of women.

That's true of teachers, politicians, or factory workers.

You have to put structures in place to ensure equality.

It falls on the political parties to take this serious.

At the moment, Plaid Cymru

is trying to attract a wide range of people to stand in elections.

We need to look at mentoring systems and give women confidence.

And we have to look at the skills you need to be a good politician.

Most of these parties choose candidates on making a speech

and answering questions.

Those aren't the only skills you need.

You need other skills, like listening to be a good politician.

You have to understand sensitive matters

and deal sensitively with people.

And also ways of talking about your experience.

Another example someone mentioned was

if you are a parent and you show an interest in your child's school

if you're a father they tend to push you towards the board of governors.

If you're a mother, they push you towards the parents society.

There are some prejudices which are basic in our society.

Yes, and I would say they exist in political parties.

Usually 40% or 50% of membership of political parties are females

and they tend to do the jobs like the secretary of the branch

instead of being the treasurer or the chairman.

We have to look at that.

We need to attract people to these jobs and show them

that it's possible to do it.

Is this true of the Conservatives?

When you go to the local societies, do you see a lot of women

but they are not doing the public jobs?

I'm not sure about that now.

A lot of women take part in the decisions the party makes.

It's important for us as a party to try and explain

to women who take part what about doing it publicly

instead of just working in the background?

Come out and make your points in front of everyone

and show people that all kinds of women can take part in public life.

I'm not sure whether that will happen soon.

But there are a lot of young girls coming through now

who have confidence and who are willing to be seen by other people

talking on policies.

The last word from you, Keith Davies,

who's in charge in the Labour Party in Llanelli?

There are four of us, three women and me. So I stay quiet.

So, in the committee meetings, the men are with the NUM ties,

outside their pullovers.

The days of the NUM has changed.

Things have changed, I have to say.

More and more women are coming to our meetings in Llanelli.

Thank you all.

That's it. Thanks to our guests and thanks for watching.

We'll be back at the same time next week.

If you can't wait until then, I will be on "O'r Bae" on Radio Cymru

at 2pm on Friday.

For now, For now, goodbye.