06/02/2013 CF99


06/02/2013

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We have come a long way from CF99 tonight.

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We are in SW1 in Westminster.

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It's the politicians of this place who keep us company tonight.

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Welcome to CF99 live from London this week.

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Joining me tonight are Liberal Democrat Lord Roger Roberts,

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the MP for Llanelli, Nia Griffith and Jonathan Edwards,

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the Plaid Cymru MP for Caernarfon East and Dinefwr.

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Welcome to all.

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Respect is a big word these days.

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The Welsh equivalent does not have the same ring somehow.

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When David Cameron became PM, he said it should be the foundation

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for the relationship between Westminster and Cardiff Bay.

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Things haven't been that good.

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But to use the language of the street,

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have the two governments been dissing each other?

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Who better to ask that question than Betsan Powys.

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Jones the First Minister and Jones the Secretary of State

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shared the stage on Monday morning.

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They said the respect agenda was still there live.

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You could see both men shaking hands talking of creating jobs.

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But if the Respect agenda is still alive, how healthy is it?

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Let us consider the evidence.

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The personality is that emphasised the need for respect

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where David Cameron was concerned.

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He said that he respect devolution, the Welsh Assembly

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and the Welsh people to make different decisions.

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The Respect agenda to me really means something.

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I want there to be respect between the Welsh Assembly

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and the Westminster Parliament.

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The former President said this was all talk.

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The lack of understanding between ministers in Westminster

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and the Welsh government is clear to see.

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I think that Westminster is to blame for not taking things seriously.

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They are not taking Wales seriously.

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David Cameron and David Jones are positive towards the Assembly.

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We want to see the Assembly being successful.

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I definitely want to see the Assembly being successful.

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And the 'P' was soon challenged by the 'A'.

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The economic crisis brought the news that cuts would be made.

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It was feared that the cuts were too severe.

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There were fears that Wales was suffering worst than anyone else.

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If there is a cut in benefits, then more people will be homeless,

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where will the money come to help those? The Government of Wales.

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Cheryl Gillan has come to Wales.

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Cheryl Gillan had a less than respectful welcome

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when she first visited the Welsh Assembly.

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And her successor had the same welcome in Westminster.

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When the Prime Minister promised a Respect agenda,

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did he mean trying to block Welsh Assembly legislation

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abolishing wage protection for agricultural workers in Wales

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and tearing up a cross-border GCSE exam system without consultation?

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Can he even spell the word Respect? R-e-c-p-e-c-t by the way!

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I am proud of the relationship that is forming between myself

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and the First Minister.

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It's crucial that the two Governments are co-operating well.

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We are trying to create a strong economy for Wales.

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Hold on, what about the 'R'?

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Consider the railways.

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The coalition's decision to spend over £1 billion

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on the electrification of the line between Swansea and the valleys

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was a sign of respect for the future economic opportunities for Wales.

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And lastly, 'Ch' and the temptation to play at politics.

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This is what Labour are doing in Wales.

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They've cut health spending in Wales by £400 million.

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That is a 6.5% cut.

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Carwyn Jones is the only Labour leader

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in power in the British isles.

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He has a unique place within the Labour Party.

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He wants to be seen punishing the coalition in Westminster.

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If something goes wrong here, it is easy for him

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to say the fault lies at Westminster.

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Talking about the Respect agenda suits everybody,

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but undermining it can also be advantageous.

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So, the fight and the soundbite are more attractive

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than working on co-operating.

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It is inevitable that there is a bit of theatre

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when it comes to Prime Minister's Questions and so on,

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the First Minister can get up in the Assembly

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and point the finger at Westminster.

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Yes, that happens.

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But I was disappointed that the Tory Secretary in Westminster

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went to the Supreme Court to stop the Assembly

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from legislating on by-laws.

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Then he said that this was bizarre.

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He had a lot of time to waste and this is a great disappointment.

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Why did he not have faith in the Assembly?

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I think this shows he has no respect at all.

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Is there a difference between David Jones and Cheryl Gillan?

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There was a bit of a distance between her and her electorates,

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David Jones seems to at least be a part of Welsh political life.

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I cannot forget the fact that he was on the Welsh Affairs Committee

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which was opposed to devolution.

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He did not want to give Wales any power at all.

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I hope he can co-operate with the Welsh government

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because this is very important.

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I hope that he won't repeat anything that he has done in the past.

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It's inevitable they can co-operate when they agree on the point?

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Electrification of the South Wales railways for example.

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Co-operating is easy when you agree.

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The problem is that parties don't agree very often with each other.

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I believe David Jones is a totally different animal to Cheryl Gillan.

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She was an easy target being from the Home Counties.

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She was what you would expect from a Conservative government.

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-I think she had a feather hat as well!

-I don't know about that.

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David Jones represents a Welsh seat, he can speak Welsh,

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he understands the context of the Welsh argument.

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Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness were like the Chuckle Brothers.

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David Jones and the First Minister are like the Welsh chuckle Brothers.

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They have a lot of things in common.

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When we look at constitutional questions

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and the question about where powers should live,

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and where income tax powers should be formed,

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both are run the same path when it comes to that.

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Can I raise another point, Roger.

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The former Presiding Officer said

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perhaps the system in Westminster forget about devolution at times.

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They don't understand devolution. Do you think that's a problem?

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I can remember when it came to the election for Police Commissioners

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and they had printed ballot papers in English only.

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They had forgotten about Wales. I'm not sure if this happens often.

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I am glad that Jenny Randerson is deputy to David Jones.

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She was in favour of Wales and the Welsh language.

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It is a different issue when you talk about the Wales Office

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and the other at larger departments in Westminster.

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I was listening to a discussion about the Staffordshire hospital

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and I was listening to Cameron.

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He was just referring to England at all times.

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You get the feeling sometimes when they talk about legislation

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for England and Wales, that they have not considered Wales.

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We can hear statements in Westminster and they all refer to England.

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There are plans about a education in England and health in England

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-and so on.

-With obligations to Wales.

-Yes.

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I would hope that with Jenny's ministerial role

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within the Cabinet that things will improve.

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We should not make too much of it.

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Whitehall does not understand the Welsh context,

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they do not understand devolution.

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The Welsh government will work directly

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with departments down here rather than go through the Wales Office.

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I don't think that the Wales Office is big enough to deal with Wales.

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We discussed the marriage law this week,

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but they did not discuss the Church in Wales.

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It was as if they had forgotten about that completely.

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They had no interest.

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When people explained it, they weren't interested.

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It shows the Welsh government has to be considered equal.

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Is it not more difficult in the current situation

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than when Labour where in power in both institutions?

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The Welsh government had sectors in power here.

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Carwyn Jones can't do that in the same way.

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They were friends, Rhodri Morgan had friends in Government.

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The situation is completely different.

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A Conservative government goes in a completely different direction

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to what Labour does.

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But people in Whitehall need to consider what is happening elsewhere.

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You also have governments in Northern Ireland and Scotland as well.

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Some departments are aware that certain issues have been

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devolved but others are not.

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Some find it very hard. This is the first time things have changed.

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You can take NICE and health for example.

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Jonathan, the best example of that was in the agriculture industry.

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That was the talked about the situation in agriculture.

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The minister in Cardiff Bay was trying to work on this.

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Alun Davies was doing something.

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He was trying to get something different for Wales.

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But he was stopped by the Tories.

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The only policy that seems to be coming from the Labour in Wales

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is they want to blame Westminster for everything.

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They support a constitutional system.

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But they need to work with them in order to make sure policies

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come forward that affect Wales.

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I don't say that I disagree with Jonathan.

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Has the time of the Wales Office come to an end?

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Is this a result of all this?

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Would you agree with me, Jonathan?

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The nature of the relationship between the countries

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within the UK and central government is changing quickly.

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If you are 30 and thinking of getting married,

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you could have more choice in future.

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A vote took place in Parliament last night

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and the vote was in favour of same-sex marriage.

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This is the latest bill in a series of a period of nearly 50 years

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which has changed gay relationships in the eyes of the law.

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Elystan Morgan has been part of the legislation process

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from the beginning.

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I spoke him in the House of Lords earlier.

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Elystan Morgan, what is your reaction to this legislation

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that will come to the House later on?

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If this issue becomes law,

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then there will be far-reaching conclusions.

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This question has already torn the Conservative Party in two.

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The important thing about marriage is love and commitment.

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There is something to be said in favour of this.

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But others say you can call it whatever you like

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but you should not call it a marriage in the traditional sense.

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The civil partnership has been with us since 2004.

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If I remember correctly, you voted against previous laws

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but people have been proved wrong but things move on, don't they?

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If I remember correctly, I did speak against it.

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There is a danger that some people will be not only use this right

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but it will put a lot of people under a lot of pressure.

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To some extent, I was right.

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And things have been far better than what I anticipated.

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Do you expect the Lords will try

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and put barriers in place to stop this law?

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No, I don't think so.

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I would believe that a majority in the House of Lords

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would be in favour of it.

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Do you believe it would go the same way?

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I didn't vote.

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When the measure comes from the Commons to the House of Lords,

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then I believe I will vote in favour.

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I felt last night that selecting the right words is very difficult.

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I shouldn't really use the word 'different'

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but it's hard to choose words.

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I felt that some people have been locked out of civil life

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and the door was opened to them last night.

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Can I ask you as a minister,

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are you surprised by the reaction from different religious

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denominations in Wales?

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Many are very open to this

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and believe it should be up to people to choose.

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Are you surprised how liberal Welsh chapels have been on this issue?

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I am not sure if they are all as Liberal.

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I am sure I will see different views when I return home

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but we must respect people's opinions.

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It is a tradition in this place of love elsewhere.

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It is worth doing.

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Anything that confirms love and supports love is worth doing.

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I cannot remember another subject where the public opinion

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seems to have changed so much over the decades.

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There has been a transformation. Why do you believe this has happened?

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I think it's important that it has happened and it is nice to see

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that people are so open and honest about this situation.

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I can remember when we had Section 28 and this was terrible.

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People were afraid of saying if they were gay.

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It was important to stop homophobic bullying in schools.

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I'm glad we have moved on.

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People have seen other people being open

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and others have been encouraged to be open as well.

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People have been very candid and this has helped people to accept

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that they know people that are gay and the world has moved on.

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I know you three agree on the subject.

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Are you surprised by David Cameron's decision to take this forward?

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Do you admire him for this or did he make a political mistake

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by misreading the opposition in his own party?

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I think there is a moral point behind this.

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George Osbourne wrote in The Times saying

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that this is part of the Tories' strategy to redefine their party.

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The Conservatives wanted to detoxify their image.

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The first lesson you learn in politics

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is to choose your battles.

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The Conservatives wanted to push the Respect agenda,

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but the big story from last night is that the Conservative party

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was split it in two.

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Most of the Tory backbenchers voted against David Cameron last night.

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They rebelled against the Party Whip.

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It turned out yesterday that David Cameron

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was voting against the majority of his own party.

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I have been thinking, Nia.

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Apart from thinking that this was the right thing to do,

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I don't know why he did it.

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It has raised questions about his leadership.

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It is important that you take people with you when you are a good leader.

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You have to work as a team and you unite people behind you.

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That is going to be a problem for David Cameron now.

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The party seems to be divided.

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He has not shown a lot of leadership for his party.

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Every Conservative MP from Wales

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voted against the Prime Minister last night.

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Speaking to them privately they were quite supportive of the measure

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but they felt they were under pressure from the party in Wales.

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This is a policy that was close to the hearts of your party.

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For you as a party,

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this policy was close to your party's heart.

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Has Cameron strengthened the relationship with the Lib Dems?

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We did not expect him to take this so far.

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He didn't expect the reaction that he got from his backbenchers.

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139 voted against him. 134 or 135 in favour.

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I do not know of a Prime Minister

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that has been in a situation like this before.

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We all know that this topic splits the generations.

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Conservatives tend to be older

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so they are more likely to be opposed to this.

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Yes, I can see that.

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I am sure it is the same in the above parties as well.

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Older people are more traditional, but we have to work together.

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We have to make sure that this does not split society.

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Some of us are in favour but some are not and we understand that.

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The same with civil partnerships, people in time will accept it.

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You are all in agreement,

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does this mean you will all share a Jaguar back to your homes?

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Have you all travelled 100 metres in a Jaguar?

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I do not think so.

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I cannot believe he used that for 100 metres.

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It takes more time to climb in and out again than to walk.

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Would you like a spin in a Jaguar?

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I had a lift in one once from councillor Sian Thomas,

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Carmarthenshire Council's Chairman. She gave me a lift to Trimsaran.

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That is all for this evening. Thanks to my guests and to you.

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There won't be a programme next week

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but we will be back the following week in Cardiff Bay.

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Good evening.

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