20/02/2013 CF99


20/02/2013

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Hello and welcome to Cardiff Bay for half an hour of political discussion.

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It has been a difficult time for the BBC, after lost its leader

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and maybe even its credibility and the faith of the public.

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What next?

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But will recent development affect the BBC's reputation with S4C?

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Also tonight, a brave decision or a gamble?

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Why does the Plaid Cymru leader want to represent a constituency

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rather than a region?

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Joining us in the Senedd are the Assembly Members

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Aled Roberts of the Liberal Democrats

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and Simon Thomas from Plaid Cymru.

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The Labour Party councillor, Huw Thomas

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and Dr Simon Brooks from Cardiff University.

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Welcome to you all.

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What happened at the Bryn Estyn children's home near Wrexham

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in the 1970s and 80s has been in the headlines right across Britain

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and beyond over the last week.

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Now some of the attention has turned to the BBC

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and the way the Corporation has reported what happened there.

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The Director General has resigned, other managers have stepped aside

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and there is a possibility some members of staff will be disciplined.

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It is a difficult time for the Corporation

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to discuss its relationship with S4C.

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Here is Arwyn Jones.

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The events of the last weeks have been terribly serious.

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They have also been a huge problem for the BBC managers.

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The wholly exceptional events of the past few weeks

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have led me to conclude that the BBC should appoint a new leader.

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With the resignation of the Director General

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and other possible disciplinary action on the horizon,

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these are difficult, dark days for the Corporation.

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So it's possible that the the main concern for the BBC Trustees

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won't be its relationship with S4C.

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This is the new contract with S4C with the Corporation responsible

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for the majority of the channel's money while keeping an arm's length away

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from S4C's editorial decisions.

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The nature of the relationship has been the subject

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of a public consultation which ended three weeks ago.

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The Welsh Language Society said it was worried about the one-sided

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content towards the BBC in the document in many ways.

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They say there is a lack of emphasis in the contract

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that would ensure S4C can maintain itself as an independent

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broadcaster strategically as well as editorially apart from the BBC.

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Wales Independent Producers,

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which represents the independent television companies,

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said they had several concerns.

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They included the BBC's ability to cut or stop S4C's budget

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in some situations and that it placed huge responsibility

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on the BBC Trust.

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A new crisis for Newsnight.

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Tonight, this programme apologises.

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But those aren't the only concerns.

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After all the problems within the BBC over the last few days

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some have been raising other concerns.

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In the discussions I had when I was the Chief Executive of S4C,

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we were told that the BBC has huge experience of editing programmes

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and of selling programmes abroad,

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become part of this process.

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But now there is a question mark over the credibility of the BBC.

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Maybe the BBC and S4C will have to reconsider where they will go

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in the situation that will stem from this crisis.

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As regards to this relationship, I don't agree with it at all.

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I think it was a mistake from the start.

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But I don't think the current crisis has anything to do with that.

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And we have to leave the processes go forward sensibly

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and we have to get the best deal for viewers in Wales.

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We can have another look at the relationship in a few years time.

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You cannot forget the terrible events

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which occurred at Bryn Estyn at the heart of this.

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But the way the BBC dealt with those incidents could have

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far-reaching consequences.

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Aled Roberts, what do you make of,

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not so much the editorial mistakes made by Newsnight,

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but of what's been done to try and improve the situation since then?

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It is important that the main story here is the child abuse.

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As one who represents North Wales, we shouldn't lose sight of that.

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But it's very difficult to understand what the managers were doing

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with regard to the way the story was portrayed from the beginning

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or how the programme was created.

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After that, were there journalists in North Wales

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who dealt with this story 20 years ago?

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And those people who listened to the whole hearing.

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Yes, it's difficult to believe there were people within the BBC

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involved in this story 20 years ago.

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So I'm wondering whether somebody in London contacted them

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to find out what was background to the story.

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If they had information on witnesses in North Wales.

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Simon Brooks, unlike the Hutton era,

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the Government has not stepped into this row,

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Downing Street has said there is no existential crisis for the BBC.

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Do you agree or is there a question mark about

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the future of the Corporation?

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I'm sure some members of Conservative Party

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would like to see the BBC strangle itself.

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Maybe that's something to do with it.

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But for me, the situation is very ironic.

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There were serious management problems within S4C

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and S4C paid the ultimate price for that,

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it was abolished as an independent broadcaster.

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It's impossible to pay a higher price.

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Since that happened, we have seen two crisis

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and two scandals to do with the media in London,

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within the tabloid press and Mr Murdoch and now within the BBC.

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At a very high level.

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Do you expect the BBC to pay the same price?

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No, I don't think Al-Jazeera will take over the BBC.

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I don't see that happening.

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But here in Wales, we should be aware

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of the irony of what's happened.

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It underlines how unfair it was what happened to S4C.

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The answer for the crisis in S4C was to remove the staff

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who had erred from their positions.

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I think that was the correct decision there,

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not that the Corporation will lose its independence.

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But now I think we need a mature discussion in Wales

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about how we ensure that S4C is as independent as possible

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within the current framework.

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Simon Thomas, the fact that all these structures are being discussed,

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the BBC is under attack,

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that opens up issues like the devolution of broadcasting.

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That's right.

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It opens up the debate that broadcasting in Wales

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is in the hands of one corporation.

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That is a danger for anyone who wants to see

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more comments being made,

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who want to see independence in that sector.

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It's important we concentrate on S4C's ability to be independent from

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the BBC or at least to have an independent editorial

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and strategic voice apart from the BBC.

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Safeguarding the Welsh language is very important to S4C

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and that's not something the BBC has always concentrated on.

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What about the devolution of broadcasting?

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I'm not sure.

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What is important is ensuring that the good things the BBC does

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are not lost in this mess.

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What's been put in place between S4C and the BBC in Wales

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I think that's the best thing that could have happened

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in that situation.

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But what we are seeing now, generally, is that almost

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all of our establishments in this country,

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whether it be in Wales or Britain,

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are under a wave of cynicism now from the public.

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The political scandal expenses, the media, the BBC.

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Will it affect our public lives?

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The fact that we can bring these establishments to account

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is a good thing in our society.

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The fact that any establishment, no matter how powerful,

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is open to this scrutiny.

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It's a pity these things have happened.

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I'm wondering how much of this is a pay-back to the BBC

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after they won the lead in the Leveson Inquiry.

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Simon Brooks, you have made it clear that you think S4C

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has been hard done by,

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are you calling for the relationship to be looked at again?

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That political decision has been made.

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I think we have to look at how we can restrict the damage.

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I would want to avoid this idea that the BBC

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and S4C move into the same building.

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I think that creates an atmosphere where everyone

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lives in the same bowl, in the same fish bowl.

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It would save money?

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I think it would be incredible if S4C moved from Cardiff,

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put some geographic distance between S4C and the BBC.

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We need to have serious discussions now

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to ensure that within the strict framework we have,

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we can't change the framework, but S4C needs to keep its identity.

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Huw, you're shaking your head.

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-Cardiff is the capital of Wales...

-You're a Cardiff councillor!

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I've also got the culture remit. Cardiff is the capital of Wales.

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It is unthinkable that S4C would not be in the capital.

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Do you want the relationship to be reconsidered?

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No, I think S4C was wronged two or three years ago

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but I don't think this Newsnight business is a reason to rethink it.

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The agreement has been made and there has been

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a lot of discussion between S4C and the BBC on the way forward.

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We have to see that it works now.

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The next step for broadcasting is devolution in my opinion.

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I don't think we need to rethink this relationship.

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Aled, should broadcasting be devolved?

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There is an argument for that.

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We have always been in favour,

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but it's obvious people in London are against it.

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There is no willingness to discuss it at the moment

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from the British Government.

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S4C has been under the spotlight, the BBC is under pressure,

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nobody is discussing ITV and Philip Schofield

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giving that list of names to the Prime Minister.

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But the difference is public money.

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Has the bar in the public world been raised too high?

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No, I agree with Huw.

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I think it's important that in an open society

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we are scrutinised as public servants.

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I do see inconsistencies in the way the BBC has been dealt with

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and the fact that directors and Philip Schofield on the programme...

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Well, I wasn't ready to accept what he did.

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But they don't use licence money.

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There are still standards in all forms of broadcast.

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But, Simon, the BBC has its critics which is fair at the moment.

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But it also has its enemies. And the enemies are after blood here.

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Some people want to split the BBC up into two corporations and weaken it.

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The fact that the BBC is active on many levels.

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There is an argument about that, maybe the BBC has become too big.

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But 18 month ago I was fighting to keep Six Music on the radio,

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and S4C and Radio Cymru.

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It's important that we put it in context.

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I think the BBC are expected to behave better than ITV.

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The only people who revealed the name of this person is ITV

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on a card over the table to Cameron.

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It's been a big week for the Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood,

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she reached an agreement with the Government about the budgets

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and there was an announcement about her future.

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She won't try and regain her regional seat.

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It is certainly a risk,

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but is Leanne Wood's decision a brave one or a foolish one?

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Bethan Lewis reports.

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I can announce that the new leader of Plaid Cymru is Leanne Wood.

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The eight months since she was elected leader have been stable

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for Leanne Wood.

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No huge crisis and nothing to light the imagination.

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But she says she wants to offer real leadership

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when she announced that she is going to stand in a constituency seat,

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instead of on the regional list in 2016.

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I want to see every child, woman and man to have the chance to succeed.

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If that is to happen, Wales needs new leadership.

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That is behind my decision.

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The next big decision will be choosing a constituency.

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That is one for the members, she says,

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but there is speculation.

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Plaid Cymru succeeded in the valleys in 1999.

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And maybe a seat in this area would be a natural choice.

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But Plaid Cymru are over 6,500 votes behind Labour in the Rhonda.

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Winning in Islwyn, Caerphilly, or beyond the valleys in Neath

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would be very ambitious says the person who stood in a constituency

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and lost.

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I admire her decision. I did the same thing.

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And I'm sure I did the right thing.

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If you're a member of a political party

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and you believe in the principles of that party,

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then it's only right that you put yourself forward

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for people to elect you.

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The leader has set a challenge for other members in Plaid Cymru.

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One member suggests that established members

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should fight it out in the constituencies.

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I'll do whatever will contribute to Plaid Cymru

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winning the most votes in the Assembly.

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It's a matter for the electorate committee in Carmarthen East,

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Dinefwr and the party centrally.

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I'm ready to do what I can to respond to the challenge.

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But one member is not happy with the decision.

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It's like she is in the last chance saloon.

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It's not the last chance salon. You have to ask why she is doing it.

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Is she fed up of being a leader already?

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We will hear in the Spring in what seat she will stand.

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And it will give Leanne Wood three years to campaign to try

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and change the political map.

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-Simon Thomas, is it brave or foolish?

-It's brave.

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But it is about changing the political map.

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If we're going to get into government here,

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we have to win more constituencies, we have to break new ground.

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There is nothing better than the leader

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putting her credibility on the line and showing leadership.

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I can see the idea behind it, but the timing is odd.

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Three and a half years before the election

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who knows what the political climate will be there?

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I agree with Simon, I think it is brave,

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even if you disagree with her politically,

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you have to acknowledge that.

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The timing is odd in the sense that the politics

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in the next Assembly will be influenced

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by what happens in Scotland.

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-And the next general election.

-Yes,

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but more by what happens in Scotland.

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In Scotland decides to become independent,

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you can understand Leanne Wood then feeling she has to try and grab

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this opportunity historically to lead the nation wards independence.

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But why make that decision now instead of in 2014?

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Aled Roberts, as a regional list member, what do you think?

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Does it make you feel a little bit inadequate?

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That question has been raised.

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I think there is a role for regional members,

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if you believe in a proportional system.

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I'm ready to defend that.

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But what is interesting is whether it's brave or not,

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it depends on which constituency is picked.

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If she moves into a constituency in North Wales,

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it won't make a difference.

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She has to stand in the valleys.

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The aim of this is to increase the number of Plaid Cymru members.

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That has to do with Leanne Wood's character.

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Plaid Cymru believes some of these regional marginal seats

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are radical but some are Conservative.

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Aberconwy, Anglesey, Carmarthen West.

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That is not where Leanne Wood will shine.

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Will the Labour Party be ready for her in the valleys?

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I think Labour will look forward too the battle.

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We have to wait and see where she stands.

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It will also be up to the Plaid Cymru members in seat,

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so she can't be presumptuous about where she will be selected.

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But the truth is Plaid Cymru will select this seat and campaign

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for that three years and put a lot of their resources into that seat,

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so you could match them, because your resources

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will be poured in as well in the same way as Rhuanedd Richards

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will pour in resources for the Plaid Cymru campaign.

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Of course we will do that,

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but we will also look to win seats in West Wales as well.

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The Labour Party represents people all around Wales.

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Simon Thomas, what about this idea of moving the big guns

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out of safest seat and bringing fresh names in?

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I think there will be a discussion about that over the next few months.

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Leanne Wood says she wants to see this happening

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over the next six to nine months.

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Every party is guilty of this and we have left things too late

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before an election, before deciding strategically where people will go.

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Maybe this is too soon, but when is the right time?

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I admire what you have done in Plaid Cymru

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because in places like Catalonia and Scotland,

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something has changed.

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If Scotland does vote in favour of independence,

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I don't doubt that Plaid Cymru's vote will increase.

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If that's the case, some of those seats in the valleys are winnable.

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Aled, we heard from Nerys Evans that there was another member,

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Jonathan Morgan, who won the first time, but lost last time.

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If he had stayed on the list,

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he would be the Conservative leader here today.

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So there are dangers with this.

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There are personal choices to be made.

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I would agree with you, two years is a long time in politics.

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It will depend on what happens with the economy as well.

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I think there is also a question about where Plaid Cymru

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go with their policies.

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In North Wales, there's a decision between traditional nationalism

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and a more social approach.

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There are also dangers of staying on the list.

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It raises questions about the system we have in Wales.

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We have to look at it.

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If someone on the list can't represent their constituency,

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we need more fist past the post members.

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That would suit the Labour Party.

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Who sets up a system that favours their party? That never happens!!

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Adam Price is also being mentioned,

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but he would want a constituency, wouldn't he?

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Maybe, or he could stand on the list.

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I don't think you have to be in a constituency

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to be an equal member of the Assembly.

0:23:230:23:26

But I think as a leader, it is an excellent thing for Leanne Wood,

0:23:260:23:30

because I think her leadership has been a bit flat so far.

0:23:300:23:34

So it is an opportunity for her to reinvent herself.

0:23:340:23:38

She hasn't been in the job long enough to reinvent herself yet.

0:23:380:23:45

But it has pleased you?

0:23:450:23:48

I think she is being brave and it is better that she has done it.

0:23:480:23:52

Thank you for your company tonight. That is it for now.

0:23:520:23:57

-We're back next Wednesday. until then, goodbye.

-Goodbye.

0:23:570:24:04

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