Browse content similar to 03/11/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Afternoon folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. Confusion and chaos | :00:29. | :00:33. | |
are the only ways to describe the extraordinary events surrounding | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
the G20 summit in the south of France. It's all down to the Greeks. | :00:37. | :00:42. | |
As we come on air the Greek cabinet is in another emergency session. | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
Prime Minister Papandreou has already lost his parliamentary | :00:45. | :00:50. | |
majority. Coe be about to lose his job. It looks like he's lost his | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
plan for a referendum and there is a confidence vote to lose tomorrow. | :00:53. | :00:59. | |
No wonder the G20 is left scratching its head back in Cannes. | :00:59. | :01:04. | |
World leaders thought the G20 summit would rubber stamp the euro | :01:04. | :01:09. | |
don't deal agreed last week. Now there's nothing to endorse, bar the | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
growing realisation that if Greece defaults Europe and America are | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
heading back into recession. We will be hearing from our | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
correspondents in Cannes and Athens and talking to two former British | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
Chancellors, Alistair Darling, and Nigel Lawson. | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
And how is the crisis changing the landscape of British politics? | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
Should Conservatives who want out of Europe altogether join the UK | :01:31. | :01:40. | |
Independence Party? All that coming up. With us for the | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
duration former Conservative politician who recently defected to | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
UKIP, Alexander Hesketh, twobg the programme. Events are moving | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
quickly this morning as world lieders set out for the -- leaders | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
set out for the G20 in Cannes expecting to endorse the Greek | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
bail-out and the rest of the plan that was supposed to save the | :01:59. | :02:07. | |
eurozone. But that plan has unravelled before the ink was dry, | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
thanks to various shenanigans emanating from Athens. As things | :02:11. | :02:16. | |
stand, no one in the G20 knows if Greece is staying in or out of the | :02:16. | :02:23. | |
euro. Backs or rejects the bail-out, or even has an operating Government. | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
The Greek Prime Minister, George Papandreou, has has just announced | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
that he as offered his resignation to the Greek cabinet. We don't know | :02:31. | :02:37. | |
what the response is yet, but he is clearly hanging on to his job by | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
his fingernails. He has lost his majority, the support of Ministers, | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
including his ambitious deputy, the referendum plan is in tatters. He | :02:46. | :02:52. | |
faces a confidence vote in 24 hours. We will keep I posted -- on all the | :02:53. | :03:00. | |
news as it happens. Th President Obama and the G20 host President | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
Sarkozy made the usual pleasantries this morning and had a joke about | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
the recent birth of the French President's daughter but it was | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
clear neither had a clue about what to do next. We are going to flesh | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
out more details about how the plan will be fully and decisively | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
implemented. We also discussed the situation in Greece and how we can | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
work to help resolve that situation, as well. The United States will | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
continue to be a partner with the Europeans to resolve these | :03:30. | :03:37. | |
challenges. TRANSLATION: We need leadership of Barack Obama, | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
we need the solidarity and support of the United States of America and | :03:40. | :03:46. | |
we need a joint, common analysis as to the way we can put the world | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
back on the path of growth and stability. | :03:50. | :03:56. | |
Now, let me go through this breaking news that we are getting. | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
Reuters reporting he hasn't resigned and doesn't intend to, but | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
also reports that he may at least have offered his resignation to the | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
Greek cabinet. When we get clarification of that we will bring | :04:07. | :04:13. | |
you up to speed. Alexander Hesketh, this is a remarkable G20, because | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
normally these summits are planned in advance, the draft is usually | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
written before they get there. It's all falling apart, what do they do | :04:21. | :04:28. | |
next? I mean, this has happened before and was totally predictable, | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
because the history books are full of examples of where you try and | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
have a currency union without having a political union. It's | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
doomed from the kick-off. That's why the Germans and French are now | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
realising they have to have a fiscal union. They're going to have | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
a fiscal union and it's going to cost a great deal of money if | :04:46. | :04:51. | |
they're not careful. Will they have a fiscal union that will include | :04:51. | :04:57. | |
all 17 of the eurozone members. You would have to bet any fiscal union | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
is not going to include Greece now? My bet is that they will | :05:00. | :05:05. | |
desperately try and hold the whole thing together with - I mean, July | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
21st was a complete fraud. The last meeting was a complete fraud in | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
terms of if you actually looked at in the cold light of day and | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
outside the Brussels bubble and they'll try and keep it together | :05:17. | :05:24. | |
because in a sense France ogt to be the leader of club med and the | :05:24. | :05:27. | |
Germans should lead a group if they want to stay in the euro in | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
northern Europe. I don't see the French allowing... I agree, which | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
is why the whole thing is doomed. Let me bring you up to date, we are | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
getting more clarification of what's happening in Athens. It | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
seems the Greek Prime Minister, Mr Papandreou, hasn't just offered his | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
resignation to the cabinet, he is actually going to see the Greek | :05:45. | :05:53. | |
President to offer his resignation to the President. It's largely an | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
honorary title. He is going to do this, he hopes as a prelude to | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
forming what's been called a Government of national unity. That | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
may sound sensible, the problem is that the opposition, the main | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
centre-right opposition in Greece is totally opposed to the bail-out | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
that Mr Papandreou is proposing and wanted to have a referendum on. So | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
whether there would be much unity in that Government is something | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
that we will fine out in the days - - fine out in the days ahead. The | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
stakes for today's G20 summit couldn't be higher, at the moment | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
they're spectators at the feast watching Greeks not bearing gifts. | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
What can we expect? It's changing all the time. | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
President Sarkozy who is hosting today's summit had hoped it would | :06:36. | :06:42. | |
be a relaxed and glamorous affair on the French Riviera, where they | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
presented the deal thrashed out last week to the rest of the world. | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
Instead it's turned into a big fat Greek nightmare. The Greek Prime | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
Minister's decision to hold a referendum on the rescue package is | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
set to dominate the discussions and now we learn Mr Papandreou will go | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
to the Greek President to offer his resignation. This morning he lost | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
his majority in parliament, which doesn't bode well for his | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
confidence vote tomorrow. Then there's the referendum itself, | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
thought to be held on December 4th. Last night the Greek leader had a | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
difficult meeting with President Sarkozy of France and Chancellor | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
Merkel of Germany, where they warned him Greece's future in the | :07:18. | :07:26. | |
eurozone was at stake. Mr Sarkozy said later: | :07:26. | :07:33. | |
The two leaders have said the next bail-out cheque will be withheld. | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
President Sarkozy was hoping the meeting would allow him to lobby | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
the Chinese President to contribute to the European financial stability | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
fund, designed to protect countries in the eurozone from collapsing. | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
But they too have indicated they need more clarity on the situation | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
in Greece. So, where does this leave David Cameron? Last night the | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
British Government said they're prepared to give more money to the | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
IMF, which could, in turn, could could towards helping struggling | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
eurozone countries, something that won't go down too well with his own | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
back backbenchers. I am joined by our correspondent Christian Fraser | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
at the G20 meeting in Cannes. We have had the spectacle of the Greek | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
Prime Minister being summoned by the leaders of France and Germany, | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
to explain himself. Now we hear he is off to see the President to | :08:19. | :08:25. | |
perhaps offer his resignation. It's chaos, isn't it? There must be | :08:25. | :08:27. | |
total bewilderment among the G20 leaders gathering here. They come | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
to talk about the global economy and how to resurge to - to create | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
resurgence in the economy and they're focusing on one of the | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
smaller members of the eurozone, Greece. What we are hearing from | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
Athens in the last few minutes is that the Prime Minister has in fact | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
offered - is going to offer his resignation to the Greek President. | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
There will be a Government of national unity that will be given | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
powers to negotiate with creditors and they will move, instead of a | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
vote of confidence and a referendum, towards elections in the short-term, | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
probably within around four weeks. Now, as Andrew was saying, that | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
does create all sorts of other problems because the opposition, | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
presumably would be included in this Government, has already | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
indicated that it wants to renegotiate the bail-out package | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
that is it - that's been offered to Greece and the German Chancellor | :09:18. | :09:24. | |
has already made it abunantly clear it's not up for renegotiation. | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
What's come out of the confirmss over the past 24 hours is something | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
new and that's that the spectre of Greece leaving the eurozone is very | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
much on the table. And that begs questions in turn, how do you do | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
that? What mechanism is there for one of these members to leave the | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
eurozone? Can they be forced to leave? Can Greece go back to the | :09:42. | :09:48. | |
drachma? You can forgive the be-- bewilderment of other leaders here | :09:48. | :09:53. | |
who have been invited to try to invest in this new expanded bail- | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
out fund, they must be scratching their heads asking what do you want | :09:56. | :10:01. | |
to us invest in? Greece perhaps leaving the eurozone, the | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
Commission has put out a notice saying there is no mechanism for | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
that, if you leave, you have to leave the the European Union, too. | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
If you are saying Angela Merkel has anticipated what is going to happen | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
and says there is is going to be no further negotiation, do you think | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
that threat will stand, bearing in mind that will harm countries like | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
Germany if there is a disorderly default or do you think the Germans | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
and French could be pushed into perhaps either renegotiating or | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
giving the money without the bail- out fund or referendum on it to say | :10:28. | :10:34. | |
yes in Greece? Well, I think it comes down to domestic politics at | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
the end of the day. The French have been terrified, not particularly | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
about Greece in isolation, but the knock-on effect to the likes of | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
Spain and Italy. There are two concerns this raises, first of all, | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
the idea of giving the people a referendum, while it might be | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
applauded in some quarters as a step towards democracy, on issues | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
after all that will affect a generation for perhaps up to ten | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
years, it does then open the door to other countries like Italy who | :11:01. | :11:08. | |
also have a Government of disunity. We have seen one of the partners of | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
Mr Berlusconi's coalition are already digging their heels in, | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
what is is to stop them saying how come the Greeks get a decision on | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
this and we don't? The second problem is the Germans have | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
obviously, and we did see Angela Merkel taking the lead again last | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
night, they are obviously saying now that we can't go on like this | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
indefinitely. Greece has to make a decision, whether it's in or it's | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
out. Whatever the wording of the referendum is, whatever the wording | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
they would have decided for this referendum, it boils down to this: | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
Is Greece in or out? That's further than the French would have wanted | :11:42. | :11:47. | |
to go but Angela Merkel is pushing it in that direction. Thank you. | :11:47. | :11:52. | |
It's unclear what the leaders can do now, there is a nice little | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
restaurant to the left of our correspondent's shoulder there. | :11:56. | :12:03. | |
They might as well have a walk along there and enjoy themselves. | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
The breaking news, the Greek Prime Minister, Mr Papandreou, is | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
planning to stand down. He is handing in his resignation to the | :12:11. | :12:16. | |
Greek President within the next 30 minutes. It looks like a new | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
coalition, a so-called Government of national unity is going to be | :12:19. | :12:29. | |
:12:29. | :12:31. | ||
formed under a former governor of the bank of Greece. At this time a | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
week ago we were told that there was a deal to bail out Greece and | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
save the euro. Some of us doubted it, we spoke to two former | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
Chancellors about where we went from here. They were pretty sniffy | :12:42. | :12:48. | |
about the whole affair. One week on the deal looks near to collapse, | :12:48. | :12:54. | |
their scepticism looks vindicated. We thought we better reassemble the | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
team, I speak of messers Darling and Lawson, to discuss again where | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
do we go from here? Alistair Darling, are we on the brink of a | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
Greek departure from the eurozone? It's very difficult for them to | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
stay, I am not an expert on Greek politics pwau Government of | :13:13. | :13:20. | |
national aou -- unity does sound odd, it may take some skill to hold | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
something together. The real problem which I set out last week | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
is that the Greek fix was never going to work. Even if it had | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
worked, it was still going to be left with a debt of 120% of its GDP, | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
which that doesn't work. So the deal they were being offered and | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
asked to implement was never going to work and should never have been | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
on the table last week. Never mind the other two legs of what they did | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
last week, the Greek capitalisation of European banks which is now | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
urgent, because if you talk about disorderly default there will be | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
default in the Greek banks which will come back to other European | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
banks and the rescue fund is not there. As you said at Prime | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
Ministers questions yesterday, it's a fund that doesn't exist. | :14:03. | :14:08. | |
doesn't exist and the rescue may be needed very, very shortly. I think | :14:08. | :14:13. | |
- I hope the G20 is not sitting at the side of the Mediterranean | :14:14. | :14:16. | |
waiting for the Greeks to come back. They have to look at what was | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
agreed last week, because it won't work and I said it would unravel | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
and it has. What they also need to do, which is urgent, is to look at | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
policies that will get growth back into the system, because as long as | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
we have this lack of growth, these problems are going to get worse and | :14:32. | :14:37. | |
worse. It's the lack of policy for growth, the G20 could do that and | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
it should meet with the same urgency and purpose it did two | :14:41. | :14:48. | |
years ago. The economy is smaller now. And by the way, without | :14:48. | :14:54. | |
wishing to hog the programme, if Greece does get tipped out of the | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
euro, don't let's kid ourselves that's going to sort the problem | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
out. It's not in our interests to have a country cast adrift with all | :15:00. | :15:10. | |
:15:10. | :15:11. | ||
the things that could go wrong, not The fact is, even before Mr | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
Papandreou announced he wanted a referendum, the deal that Alastair | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
was talking about was already falling apart. The Italians were | :15:18. | :15:23. | |
having to pay much higher yields on their debt because the bond markets | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
didn't believe the deal. Let's isolate the three different strands. | :15:27. | :15:32. | |
There is first of all the eurozone itself, which is a completely | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
flawed construct, European monetary union, it cannot work. I predicted | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
this. I made a big speech at Chatham House when I was Chancellor | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
in 1989 predicting precisely this. Plenty of others saw this too. | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
Greece is clearly going to fall out of the eurozone... You think it is | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
as clear as that? Yes, I do, quite soon. The others will struggle on | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
for quite some time, but it is fundamentally flawed. So that's | :16:00. | :16:07. | |
that. Alastair is right that growth is important, but there is no quick | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
growth injection you can produce. You have to say, what is the | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
immediate problem. The immediate problem is the threat of a European | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
and to some extent global banking crises as a result of this severely | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
impaired sovereign debt that's around the place. Therefore the | :16:22. | :16:29. | |
banking crisis has to be addressed in two ways. I think Europe as such | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
is not going to be able to play a significant part. There are two | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
levels. First of all, each nation, each member state, just like | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
Britain had to address its own banking problems with when it had | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
banking problems. Which Alistair Darling was involved in. Absolutely. | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
The authorities there are going to have to address the problem of | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
their ropey, dodgy banks, and see what needs to be done and on what | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
terms. Then there's a case for a global approach. I think the | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
British Government is absolutely right to do it through the IMF. A | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
further advantage of doing it through the IMF, I think if China | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
is going to be able to allowed greater voting rights within the | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
IMF which I deserves to have because of the strength of its | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
economy, I think you will get Chinese money only in that way will | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
you get Chinese money and resources devoted to solving the global | :17:20. | :17:25. | |
problem. So I think those are the three strands. That's way ahead. | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
Alistair Darling, you've done a bit of G20ing in your time. You were | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
involved in the big summit in London. If you were there today in | :17:34. | :17:39. | |
Cannes, given the events that are playing out in Athens, what would | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
you do? Well, I think there are two things I would do. Firstly, the G20 | :17:44. | :17:47. | |
does need to do everything it can to bring every influence to bear to | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
try to get the eurozone countries to sort out their immediate | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
problems. I agree with Nigel about the recapitalisation. It can only | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
do that nationally. No-one else can do that. That's the first thing. I | :17:59. | :18:05. | |
also agree with him that there isn't a quick fix for growth 2009, | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
when countries agreed to do whatever it took to stop recession | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
becoming depression by putting stimulus into their economies, even | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
a week before it wasn't clear they would agree to that. But because | :18:18. | :18:25. | |
they were scared stiff about the confesss -- about the consequences, | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
they acted. You now have the risk of countries defaulting. You have a | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
risk of that spilling outweigh beyond Europe. So there is every | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
interest in the world here in getting, in making sure that we | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
address some of the big imbalances, the China problem, the American | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
problem, but also that countries act together. On their own, yes | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
they can do some things, but they need to act together, otherwise | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
they'll be dragged along in the wake of events. Nigel Lawson, you | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
said there's a danger to European banks if the national Government | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
have to act. It seems to me the biggest danger is the Italian | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
system, as they buy most of the Italian bonds. And the Italian | :19:06. | :19:11. | |
Government is in no shape to recapitalise Italian banks. | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
Italian Central Bank is still quite a strong institution, even though | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
the Italian Government is very, very rocky. I think that the | :19:18. | :19:23. | |
Italians ought to be able to manage this. We are talking, the Italian | :19:23. | :19:29. | |
political situation will clearly have to be resolved soon. Silvio | :19:29. | :19:34. | |
Berlusconi can't go on like he is. That has got to be resolved. Buying | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
time is an important element in all of these sorts of problems. One of | :19:38. | :19:46. | |
the first problems I was dealing with in 1983 was the Latin America | :19:46. | :19:52. | |
sovereign debt crisis. Hit many similarities to this. -- it had. We | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
solved it satisfactorily through the IMF, buying time. That's what | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
you have to do. And through an Argentinian default as well. Yes. | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
Countries do default and they come back from the grave, as it were. | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
Only Honduras and Ecuador has defaulted more than Greece. Greece | :20:09. | :20:16. | |
has got previous on this. It is not unusual for it to happen. Is UKIP a | :20:17. | :20:26. | |
:20:27. | :20:27. | ||
bit like Madame Lafarge as you do your knitting as the tumbrils roll? | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
Every working family in this country is going to be affected by. | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
This we have an interest in trying to avoid this ever happening again? | :20:34. | :20:40. | |
That's why we do not wish to be involved within Europe. Of a way | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
and manner that's conducted way. That's why we have a great interest. | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
Finally, ex-Charles, if the eurozone is going to move towards | :20:49. | :20:54. | |
more fiscal integration, which is the policy of this Government as | :20:54. | :20:59. | |
well as Her Majesty's opposition, and is the policy of Mrs Merkel and | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
Nicolas Sarkozy, will it be an integration of the 17 or even the | :21:02. | :21:07. | |
16, or will it be a smaller eurozone that does that? My guess | :21:07. | :21:13. | |
is that a lot of uncertainty that it will be a smaller unit. There is | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
such a disparity between Germany on the one side and if you assume | :21:17. | :21:22. | |
Greece is out of it. One point that Nigel made, an important one, what | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
is desperately needed is time. You can't reorder the eurozone within | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
days but they won't get that time unless they deal with the problems | :21:31. | :21:38. | |
that were there last week. On a smaller eurozone? They may try that, | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
but I don't think the people s even of the smaller part, the inner core, | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
I don't think they really want a full political union. So the thing | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
is not going to make sense even at that level. Gentlemen, we'll leave | :21:51. | :21:57. | |
it there, but don't go too far away. We may need to make a block booking | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
for you. Remember Harold Wilson said a week is a long time in | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
politics? It is certainly a long time in eurozone politics! An hour | :22:04. | :22:09. | |
is a long time in Greek politics! Gentlemen, former Charles, thank | :22:09. | :22:15. | |
you. -- Chancellors, thank you. | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
Now, the Greek Prime Minister isn't the only European leader with his | :22:18. | :22:21. | |
own domestic political problems. There's no prospect of him losing | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
his job, of course, but you'll remember last week that 81 of David | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
Cameron's MPs defied him and voted in favour of a referendum on | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
Britain's relationship with Europe. We decided to take a look back | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
through the archives and began to wonder - can you guess what these | :22:33. | :22:43. | |
:22:43. | :22:43. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 41 seconds | :22:43. | :23:24. | |
Yes, they were all former Conservative Party members who have | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
now joined UKIP. One of them was a young Lord Hesketh, our guest of | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
the day here, who joined UKIP last month. Well, we're joined now by | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
Andrea Leadsom, a Conservative MP and one of the 81 rebels who defied | :23:35. | :23:41. | |
the party leadership last week. Thank you for joining us. Lord | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
Heskey, you have made this radical switch after a long history with | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
the Conservative Party. What's wrong with the Tory Party? I think | :23:48. | :23:54. | |
that all political parties over the European issue have become | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
completely controlled by the Civil Service. That's a combination of | :23:57. | :24:02. | |
the Civil Service in this country and the Civil Service in Brussels. | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
And the establishment that goes with that. It is not just the civil | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
servants. But Europe is hard-wired into the system. But if you've got | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
a Prime Minister like David Cameron, who reputedly was very Euro-sceptic, | :24:14. | :24:19. | |
surely it is down to the leadership of the party? I think the actions | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
of Andrea and 81 people in the House of Commons last week shows | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
that there's a distinct sense of unease about whether or not whoever | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
is running the House of Commons is actually able to deliver. This is | :24:31. | :24:36. | |
the real problem. This is the actuallity of it, which is for | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
instance I saw one Tory MP once weekend, wisely, in my opinion, | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
suggesting that we should immediately get rid of the UK | :24:43. | :24:50. | |
ambassador in Brussels, who goes under the winning name of Akreb. | :24:50. | :24:55. | |
Unusual to say the least! actually I would put a politician | :24:55. | :25:05. | |
:25:05. | :25:07. | ||
in there. This is about politics, not about the grand project which | :25:07. | :25:13. | |
Giscard d'Estaing would have called it. But your main aim is to have a | :25:13. | :25:19. | |
referendum isn't it? And surely the best and only likely way of making | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
it that happen is to work through the Conservative Party isn't it? | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
disagreement I don't think you spend 50 years with the Tory Party | :25:27. | :25:33. | |
and make the jump that I made unless you've come to the collusion | :25:33. | :25:39. | |
that -- conclusion that all political parties, for want of a | :25:39. | :25:45. | |
better word, set-up, are incapable of dealing wit. You might as well | :25:45. | :25:51. | |
jump ship and join UKIP? Not at all. I think the Government are doing an | :25:51. | :25:56. | |
excellent job. At what? For example ensuring Britain doesn't remain a | :25:56. | :26:01. | |
part of the bail-out mechanism after 2013. Looking after British | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
interests. David Cameron, William Hague and George Osborne have | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
spoken strongly about the need to renegotiate powers in Britain's | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
best interests. I'm certainly working with a wide range of | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
colleagues across the party to look at ways that we can renegotiate | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
powers. But then, as Lord Hesketh said, he spent all this time in the | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
Conservative Party, but none of these things have come to fruition. | :26:22. | :26:27. | |
There is no reliable evidence to say any of those power would be | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
repatriated, and you won't get that referendum. But things have changed | :26:30. | :26:35. | |
in the last week, they've certainly changed in the last couple of years. | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
And I remain incredibly hopefully and positive that this Government | :26:38. | :26:43. | |
is going to make that difference. In terms of having a referendum? | :26:43. | :26:47. | |
They've already ruled that out and your colleagues have argued this is | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
the best opportune time to have a referendum to renegotiate Britain's | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
relationship with Europe. Very a slightly different take on it. The | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
point about the vote last week, for me at least. The key thing is that | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
the British people should have their say at some point. This | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
wasn't about a lack of confidence in the Government. This was a point | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
about democracy, that people have waited since 1975 to have a further | :27:08. | :27:14. | |
say on the EU. It is that alone that made me decide to vote for a | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
referendum. That is not to say that I think the Government is doing the | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
right thing in moving towards a situation that looks after | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
Britain's interests in the EU. you worried that any of your | :27:26. | :27:34. | |
colleagues will leave the party and join UKIP? Not at all. There are a | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
group of people in the Conservative Party who believe Britain would be | :27:37. | :27:45. | |
better outside of the EU. My straw poll of the 20 is 10 intake, we are | :27:45. | :27:51. | |
a Euro-sceptic bunch but we don't favour getting out altogether. | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
Doesn't that represent the majority view, regoegs yes, but not pulling | :27:54. | :28:00. | |
out of the EU altogether? I think what Andrea said was interesting. | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
She is talking about the parliamentary party. I don't expect | :28:03. | :28:08. | |
to see many people coming out of the parliamentary party, if any. | :28:08. | :28:13. | |
Peter Oborne in today's Telegraph, he says we are going as a political | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
party. We are not just a single- issue party. We had a manifesto at | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
the last election and the reality is that more and more people are | :28:21. | :28:26. | |
coming to us. Can I give you two examples. Briefly. One is the Tobin | :28:26. | :28:31. | |
tax. The response we've had from the City in the last two weeks is | :28:31. | :28:35. | |
simply breathtaking. Now, just time to put you out of | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
your misery and give you the answer to yesterday's Guess The Year | :28:38. | :28:41. | |
competition. 1960 was the year. Alexander, pick a winner. J reg | :28:41. | :28:50. | |
began from Peterborough. -- J Regan. | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
I'm back here tonight on This Week with Alastair Campbell and Michael | :28:53. | :28:56. |