24/05/2012 Daily Politics


24/05/2012

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn have the top political stories of the day.


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Good afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. European

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leaders and another summit in Brussels deciding they will

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postpone any decisions until yet another summit next month. The line

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is that they want Greece to stay in the eurozone but behind closed

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doors they are making preparations for an exit and squabbling over

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what they will do to get growth. Culture secretary Jeremy Hunt is

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back in the spotlight at the Leveson Inquiry today, with

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evidence being heard from his former special adviser over News

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Corp's bid for BSkyB. Petrol prices are still sky-high.

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Short George Osborne plan -- should George Osborne postpone any planned

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increase in fuel duty? New Government plans to block porn

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sites. Our parents or internet providers responsible for what we

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see online? The alternative is that the Government decides what we all

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see online, which is a very dangerous step to take.

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That is coming up in the next hour. For the duration, part-time judge,

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barrister, writer, Constance Briscoe is with us. Welcome back.

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Before we get back to the latest from the Leveson Inquiry, let's

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start on a story that was supposed to have happened today but has been

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postponed until next week. Justice Secretary Ken Clarke was supposed

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to publish the new security and justice bill today, which would

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include plans to allow some civil court hearings and crucial inquests

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to be held in secret, behind closed doors, where material considered

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could be damaging to national security. But we are told there has

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been some last-minute wrangling inside the coalition. Who would

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have thought of that?! Where do you stand on this? Is there a case for

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some things involving security services where secret information

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is going to be presented to the court, that it should happen behind

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closed doors? Well, I'm not quite sure what is being proposed at the

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moment. Certainly in the criminal courts, we have a system whereby if

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there is sensitive material, it can be heard with a judge. We have a

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public interest immunity system, so if there is an issue that might

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affect national security or compromise a criminal trial of the

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investigation, the judge can here that material. What is proposed at

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the moment is quite different. What is being proposed is that instead

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of the judge saying that this material is sensitive and I am

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going to look at it, in the comfort of his room or whatever, the

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proposal at the moment is that it is the minister who will be closing

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the doors of the court. We need to be very clear in relation to what

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is going on. We have a public interest immunity system and it

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works perfectly well. And I am not entirely sure whether what is

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proposed is really a way of preventing embarrassment to the

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Government or closing the doors when they don't like the material

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that is available. And the responsibility really should remain

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with judges, who are completely impartial and used to the procedure

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that we have at the moment. I think some people are suspicious because

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they said it would involve inquests, and it has been through inquests,

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particularly coroner's inquests, that we found out things of

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soldiers dying in Afghanistan, equipment not being right, things

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that the establishment did not want us to know. Absolutely. This all

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developed because the Government is absolutely clear that they do not

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want MI5 or MI6 persons to be able to give evidence in court. And

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there is pressure from the state that secret intelligence remains

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secret. You can understand that. do. But I recall that it was the

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information from the state, last week or the week before, about the

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double agent, the English double agent with the special... In the

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Yemen, yes, absolutely. I do think it is a fundamental principle in

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this country that justice must be open, and we are entitled to know

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who our accuses art and why it is, for example, that we are behind

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bars. -- who accuses us. And the judge can take immunity into

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account? It works perfectly well and we do not need what is now

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proposed. Namely that the minister closes the door of the court, that

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is unacceptable. Thank you. That is clear and we will see what happens

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as they are still fighting. For a change! We will not fight about the

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daily quiz. Who described the Prime Minister as quite volatile

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yesterday? Ed Balls, Vince Cable, at Norman Lamont, or Nick Clegg? At

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the end of the show, Constance Briscoe will give us the correct

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answer, I hope. I heard him say it. From the horse's mouth? I heard it

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live but I don't think you should call him a horse! The 18th Brussels

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summit of European leaders in two years, excluding a separate ones

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that they have just had with the eurozone leaders, 18 in two years.

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Mr Cameron has gone to them but there is still no sign of a

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concrete plan for sorting out the eurozone. Last night's meeting in

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Brussels, six hours with dinner, of course, produced another bland

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statement that Greece should stay in. But Germany and France cannot

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agree on how to get the eurozone growing again. There were

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skirmishes between David Cameron and Francois Hollande over attacks

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on the City, which the French President wants to use to raise

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extra funds to pay for his growth measures. Bring us up to speed, Jo,

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if there was any speed. You cannot do the summer on an empty stomach!

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The euro saga rolls on. The latest instalment was yesterday evening

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when European leaders met during an informal summit to discuss the

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crisis. The new French President Francois Hollande is trying to push

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the leaders away from austerity measures and move towards spending

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on infrastructure projects to try to kick-start growth. There is

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disagreement on how to pay for it. Angela Merkel is under pressure to

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agree to eurobonds, which were basically mean borrowing would be

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collectively guaranteed by all the eurozone countries. This would

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lower the cost for most countries, but increase it for Germany. Angela

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Merkel is also worried it would let those that spent too much of the

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hot, and stop them getting their finances in order. -- off the hook.

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David Cameron says that he supports the idea of eurobonds but he is

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under some pressure himself. There are reports that European leaders

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tried to push the Prime Minister to implement a financial transactions

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tax, and he has reacted angrily to the proposals, saying it will put

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up the cost of insurance, pensions, and will cost many jobs. These

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issues will be looked at further during a formal summit in June.

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However, the prospect of Greece having to leave the euro is being

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openly discussed by the leaders now. This afternoon, the Deputy Prime

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Minister will give a speech in Germany. He will say that Greece

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exiting the euro is something that no rational person would want. He

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argues that as Europeans, our response to this growing crisis has

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been woefully fragmented and we have failed on a number of fronts.

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Thank you. We are joined by the shadow Europe minister, Emma

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Reynolds. And from Strasbourg, the Conservative MEP, Martin Callanan,

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who leads the Conservatives and the reformists group in the European

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Parliament. Welcome to you both. David Cameron seems to support the

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idea of eurobonds. Do? I think it is a matter for the eurozone

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countries themselves to decide. What is your opinion? I don't think

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they will ever agree to it. As yourself the question, can you see

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the Germans agreeing to spend another �40 billion a year on

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interest payments alone, having their credit rating downgraded, to

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support Greece and Portugal? I certainly can't. I don't think they

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will agree to it, having spoken to senior politicians. Anna Reynolds,

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does Labour support the idea of eurobonds for the eurozone? -- Emma

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Reynolds. We are in favour of eurobonds. It is clear that the

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German economy has benefited from exchange rates, meaning that

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exports have been cheaper and more successful. Germany has benefited

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and at some stage I think they might change their position because

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the Social Democrats in Germany, he was doing very well in regional

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elections, are more favourable to the eurobonds. They are more

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favourable but rather in favour of them? Well, they are, the

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leadership is in favour of them. I heard another voice against, so

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that is an open question. Saying that Germany would underwrite the

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dead of Italy, Greece, Portugal, Ireland, Spain. How would that

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work? Pooling of risk. Det neutralisation. Can you win an

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election on that? We have to admit that it is difficult for any German

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politician. But they have benefited from the single currency. The

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German Government has to do more to recognise what Francois Hollande

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has been saying since the got elected and before, that there has

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to be an emphasis on growth. -- since he got elected. But people

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are talking about growth in different terms. It is not likely

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to happen. Do you support Nick Clegg's view that no rational

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person would support Greece leaving the euro? In other words, if you

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think Greece should leave the euro, you are bonkers! I did, actually, I

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think he is wrong. I think he was wrong when he supported the UK

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joining the euro in the first place, it so we cannot take his advice

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right now. Across the European Parliament, an increasing number of

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people are now accepting that Greece will leave the euro. They

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cannot put up with another eight years of grinding austerity, and

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even then they will only have a debt pile the same as Italy. There

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has to be massive fiscal transfer, which will not happen, I don't

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think. We have to get on with it. The uncertainty is damaging for

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business, Britain, and the rest of Europe. I think the markets have

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priced in a Greek exit. I think it is better for them in the long run.

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In the short term it will be painful but in the long run it is

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better for the European economy and we should get the difficult

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decisions over with now. The council should be talking about how

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this can be done in an orderly and progressive manner. Does Labour

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support group staying in or leaving? We would prefer that

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Greece stay in the euro. There are great risks. In Spain, borrowing

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costs are already going up. And not at all certain that if Greece were

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to leave, that there would not be a contagion effect. Spain is the 4th

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largest eurozone economy. banking systems are in trouble.

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So if they stay in, it should we do the deal with severe conditions for

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the bail-out, which is the price of membership? Right fully, they are

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conditions to a bail-out. We think there should have been more

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influenza early on to help them get back to growth and cut down the

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deficit. -- more influence. should Greece pay the price of that

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membership, or do you agree with the left-wing politicians in Greece,

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saying that they want to stay in but they will not pay that price?

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think they do have to pay a price of membership of the euro. I think

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that is clear. I think what the hard Left leader is doing, is

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saying to Angela Merkel and others, if he wins and forms a Government,

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that they want some renegotiation. It remains to be seen whether

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Chancellor Merkel will go anywhere near that. It is not even clear

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that Hollande is prepared to renegotiate with Greece. No, it is

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not clear. And if they vote for this chap, then it is a vote to

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leave, isn't it? That is what some Prime Ministers and politicians are

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saying, including David Cameron. What do you say? I think it is up

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to the Greek people to decide what Government they want. If the hard

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left was to form a majority Government in coalition with others,

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then there would have to be negotiation between the new Prime

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Minister and the European leadership, and I don't think we

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should try to dictate to the Greek people have to vote or otherwise.

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But I certainly think it would be much more difficult if the hard

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left wing. Speaking of how to vote, what do you make of the UK

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Independence Party proposal for joint candidates at the next

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election? How does that grab you? think we should stand as

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Conservative candidates across the UK and I am sure people will want

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to do that. The UK Independence Party will want to plough their own

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furrow and use that own policies. If you had the staunch euro-sceptic

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Conservative, like yourself, standing in a seat where without UK

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Independence Party votes you might win, what would be wrong with that?

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Given that you both agree on of the referendum and have an anti-

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European attitude, why shouldn't you have a joint ticket? I think it

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is very difficult to do in practice. They are different party

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organisations. While we agree on some points, we disagree on others.

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We need to demonstrate to their supporters, that voting for one of

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their candidates, who might get five or 6% of the vote, that will

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actually get Emma Reynolds into Government! They are opposed to EU

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legislation, and that is the consequence of voting for the UK

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Independence Party. Where do you disagree with the UK Independence

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Party? I don't believe that we should leave the European Union. I

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think there is hope in renegotiating our membership and we

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benefit from the single market. We want to get rid of the excess

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legislation, that I was talking about. But if you tried to

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renegotiate and failed, would you want to leave? I think there are a

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lot of hypothetical questions in that. Just one! It is just one. If

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you failed to renegotiate, would you leave? If we renegotiated and

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employment legislation, if we renegotiated our budgets level,

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then there are lots of ifs. Let's see what we come out with and take

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the view. I think that should be put to the British people, by the

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way, taking a view on how successful the renegotiations have

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been. Then we can see whether we want to bear the good things about

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membership and the bad things, which is what we always have to

:16:21.:16:31.
:16:31.:16:37.

take into account. I think we will Where you stand? I'm even more

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confused as to what has been proposed. I'm in flux and confusion.

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You should do this show every day! I will give you the final word.

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Conservative Party is all over the place on Europe. You have got

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Martin saying there should be renegotiation... Do you want a

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referendum? Our position hasn't changed. Are you in favour or

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against? By came on your show in October the and said I think it's a

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distraction. The British government needs to focus on jobs. You rule

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out a referendum? And not forever, but at the moment the focus should

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be on getting the economy growing. Maybe you could draw one up for the

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next Labour Party manifesto. have no plans for that. You know

:17:27.:17:31.

what happens with politicians. Michael Heseltine said he had no

:17:31.:17:34.

plans to run against Margaret Thatcher. You are keeping the door

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open. We think membership of the EU... Are I was talking about... Do

:17:41.:17:45.

you rule out that the next Labour manifesto could promise the British

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people a referendum? I'm not writing the next manifesto. I will

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not write it on your show. won't answer the question? We are

:17:54.:17:58.

not in favour of a referendum. you answer the question... We are

:17:58.:18:02.

not in favour of a referendum. we don't really know. I thought

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someone said they were! He is not on the front bench. They are all

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all over the place. We have to thank you very much. The

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What did Jeremy Hunt know and what did he say? That's the question

:18:16.:18:19.

today as the Leveson Inquiry looks at the emails between the Culture

:18:19.:18:22.

Secretary's team and Rupert Murdoch's media empire in the run-

:18:22.:18:25.

up to the attempted takeover of BSkyB. Mr Smith, who resigned after

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his emails were published by the inquiry, is due to give evidence

:18:28.:18:32.

this afternoon. Mr Michel has been questioned this morning. In the

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last hour, he was asked whether he thought Adam Smith spoke with

:18:35.:18:45.

Jeremy Hunt's authority when they The day and for me, it is self-

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evident. A special adviser is someone who

:18:50.:18:53.

represents the Secretary of State, that is what they are there for.

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When they interact across the policy community or with anyone. I

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would have to assume that a special adviser, and there are not many

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around the Secretary of State, two in this case can't always

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represented the view of their boss. They were representing their boss,

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that is absolutely true, and constitutionally it is self-evident,

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but I suppose I'm asking you about the last part of it and after

:19:20.:19:24.

having conferred with him. Is that just under Sumsion you are making

:19:24.:19:28.

or do you have evidence? -- an assumption. It is a general

:19:28.:19:38.
:19:38.:19:40.

assumption by making. -- I am making. There are two of three

:19:40.:19:44.

events where I probably had the impression that some of the

:19:44.:19:48.

feedback I was being given had been discussed with the Secretary of

:19:48.:19:54.

State before it was given to me. Mike Sergeant joins us. Doesn't

:19:54.:19:58.

this go to the very heart of the allegations against Jeremy Hunt? As

:19:58.:20:03.

he said, to walk free events, the impression he got was that that

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Feedback had been discussed with the Secretary of State. Adam Smith

:20:07.:20:12.

was operating with the knowledge of Jeremy Hunt. Yes, clearly that is

:20:12.:20:15.

the question and that is what Fred Michel has been questioned at

:20:15.:20:21.

length about today at the Leveson Inquiry. He was referring to two or

:20:21.:20:26.

three instances where he felt Jeremy Hunt's views were being

:20:26.:20:31.

relaid, but that is just two or three occasions within a whole

:20:31.:20:39.

bunch of communications, 191 phone calls, 158 e-mails, 799 text

:20:40.:20:46.

messages with Adam Smith. On each occasion, Fred Michel is under

:20:46.:20:51.

pressure to describe to what extent were Jeremy Hunt's views accurately

:20:51.:20:56.

be reflected and when Mr Michell was being asked directly what were

:20:56.:21:00.

Mr Hunt's views on the BSkyB bid, he said he did not know whether

:21:00.:21:04.

Jeremy Hunt was in favour, he said he thought Mr Hunt was keeping an

:21:04.:21:09.

open mind on whether NewsCorp should take full control. That

:21:09.:21:13.

slightly contradicts, when you look at the e-mails between Fred Michel

:21:13.:21:17.

and Adam Smith, how he could have succumbed to that assumption when

:21:17.:21:24.

they talked positively about the BSkyB bid. But Fred Michel denies

:21:24.:21:27.

exaggerating his relationship with Jeremy Hunt and his special adviser.

:21:27.:21:33.

Yes. He was asked repeatedly whether he was exaggerating his

:21:33.:21:38.

level of influence, exactly what had been relayed to him and he said

:21:38.:21:42.

there were one or two instances when he was talking things up, to

:21:42.:21:47.

keep up morale within NewsCorp, but that was before the oversight for

:21:47.:21:52.

the bid had been transferred to Jeremy Hunt. After that, he felt

:21:52.:21:58.

there were no inappropriate contacts. He felt that when he was

:21:58.:22:05.

talking about J H in those e-mails, he was in fact reflecting the wider

:22:05.:22:08.

views of the Office of Jeremy Hunt, including his special adviser, and

:22:08.:22:15.

he makes the point that he was contacted by it text message with

:22:15.:22:19.

the Office of Jeremy Hunt that direct contact with him could not

:22:19.:22:23.

continue and he said he understood that. From then on he was dealing

:22:23.:22:25.

with a special adviser and he thought that was OK.

:22:25.:22:28.

We've been joined by the Conservative MP John Whittingdale,

:22:28.:22:33.

who chairs Parliament's Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee.

:22:33.:22:37.

Let's pick up on that point. What impression did you get from that

:22:37.:22:41.

evidence, particularly that peace we've just shown? He got the

:22:41.:22:47.

impression that the special adviser, Adam Smith, had discussed the

:22:47.:22:50.

information previously with Jeremy Hunt. From what I've seen this

:22:50.:22:54.

morning, everything Fred Michel said bears out Jeremy Hunt's

:22:54.:23:00.

account of what happened. That doesn't. Jeremy Hunt said that Adam

:23:00.:23:05.

Smith had been authorised by the department to act as the channel of

:23:05.:23:09.

communication. It is not that surprising that there was a lot of

:23:09.:23:17.

contact between Fred Michel and Adam Smith. But what Adam Smith

:23:17.:23:21.

said may not be precisely as reported by Fred Michel. We need to

:23:21.:23:27.

wait and see what Adam Smith says. Fred Michel wants to impress his

:23:27.:23:32.

boss, demonstrate what an effective lobbyist tears. For a channel of

:23:32.:23:36.

communication, yes, granted, but it is the relationship between the

:23:36.:23:40.

special adviser and the Secretary of State acting on Jeremy Hunt's

:23:40.:23:45.

wishes. That is the impression you come away with. In that instance,

:23:45.:23:48.

if Adam Smith has resigned and he was only doing his boss's bidding,

:23:48.:23:54.

where does that leave Jeremy Hunt? We need to hear from the Adam Smith.

:23:54.:23:58.

I would like to see the actual communications Adam Smith may have

:23:58.:24:02.

centred Fred Michel and then compare them. I think you might

:24:02.:24:07.

find that Fred Michel's account of what he was getting from Adam Smith

:24:07.:24:12.

may be rather exaggerated or at least putting a slant on it. But he

:24:12.:24:16.

has denied it. He said he contextualised some of it, but it

:24:16.:24:22.

was not exaggerated, it was a fair reflection. We will hear from Adam

:24:22.:24:26.

Smith this afternoon. What I hope we will see is not hear from Adam

:24:26.:24:31.

Smith, I hope we will be able to see Adam Smith's Communications and

:24:31.:24:35.

then it will be playing for anybody to judge. Is it appropriate have

:24:35.:24:41.

come and I can't remember the exact words, at 799 text messages,

:24:41.:24:44.

hundreds of e-mails and text messages, between a special adviser

:24:44.:24:49.

and a lobbyist, a special adviser very close to Jeremy Hunt, who

:24:49.:24:52.

could not possibly have missed that this amount of communication was

:24:52.:24:57.

going on, when they were looking over the BSkyB bid? I want to see

:24:57.:25:01.

the context and the content of those communications. You don't

:25:01.:25:06.

think the number... Michel's job was to say to his boss, I am in

:25:06.:25:11.

regular contact. I suspect a lot of those will have been Fred Mitchell

:25:11.:25:18.

e-mails Darren Smith, possibly not even replied to. -- Adam Smith. I

:25:18.:25:23.

have received a lot of e-mails from Fred Michel in the past.

:25:23.:25:25.

permanent secretary told the minister it would be inappropriate

:25:25.:25:29.

to have further contact because of his quasi-judicial role, but he

:25:29.:25:33.

made his special adviser the point of contact, not even a civil

:25:33.:25:38.

servant. The special adviser is then involved in 1,000 text

:25:38.:25:41.

messages, 350 calls and e-mails having been told they should be no

:25:41.:25:45.

contact. He should be told they should be no direct contact between

:25:45.:25:51.

the Secretary of State and NewsCorp. He appointed a surrogate. It is

:25:51.:25:55.

normal practice that there should be a channel of communication.

:25:56.:26:00.

communication between Mr Hunt's office and those opposed to the

:26:00.:26:06.

BSkyB takeover. I was told that Vince Cable's special adviser had a

:26:06.:26:08.

similar role when Vince Cable was in charge of determined the

:26:08.:26:14.

decision. Obviously there has to be some kind of channel of

:26:14.:26:17.

communication. Whether it was right to appoint a special adviser is a

:26:17.:26:22.

different question. There's no record of anything like 1,000 e-

:26:22.:26:26.

mails and text messages to those opposed to it. Why was it a one-way

:26:26.:26:32.

briefing? Fears a negotiation that takes place. There's a legal

:26:32.:26:36.

requirement that a company which is examined by the regulator should

:26:36.:26:40.

then have an opportunity to make representations on the basis of the

:26:40.:26:42.

recommendations made by the regulator. That is standard

:26:42.:26:48.

practice. What is interesting, and carrying on from what Andrew said,

:26:48.:26:52.

is that Fred Michel admitted in the evidence that he did not have much

:26:52.:26:56.

chance to make representations to Vince Cable, implying he therefore

:26:56.:26:59.

stopped and switched his attentions to where he felt he was getting a

:26:59.:27:05.

better hearing. Isn't it that that will land Jeremy Hunt in trouble?

:27:05.:27:10.

Vince Cable, we know, was hostile to the bid, that is why it was

:27:10.:27:14.

taken away from him. It may be at that time that Fred Michel wanted

:27:14.:27:18.

to communicate with Jeremy Hunt's office and Jeremy Hunt at that

:27:18.:27:22.

stage had no involvement. Once Jeremy Hunt was given the job, he

:27:22.:27:27.

rightly said he can't communicate with them any longer, but there was

:27:27.:27:33.

a channel of communication. We will content of that communication was.

:27:33.:27:37.

Then we can reach a judgement. seems that Adam Smith has resigned

:27:37.:27:42.

to protect his boss. He was carrying out the will of his boss

:27:42.:27:48.

and he has resigned. At the moment, there's this huge circle as to did

:27:48.:27:53.

he or didn't he know. Communication is a two-way thing. The ordinary

:27:53.:28:01.

person in the Street might say that if Adam Smith has resigned, his

:28:01.:28:04.

boss may be accountable. I think Adam Smith said when he resigned

:28:04.:28:08.

that he accepted that on some occasions he had overstepped, he

:28:08.:28:13.

had gone too far in what he said an maybe volume and frequency was too

:28:13.:28:16.

great. He accepts that perhaps he went further than he was authorised

:28:16.:28:21.

to do, but the fact that he was having those communications was

:28:21.:28:25.

accepted and authorised by the Department and the Secretary of

:28:25.:28:30.

State. Briefly, before we end this, we have also had news that Sir

:28:30.:28:34.

Jeremy Heywood has now said that he expected David Cameron to seek his

:28:34.:28:37.

advice after the Leveson appearance, there would be more questions to

:28:37.:28:41.

answer. He was unaware of the nature of the apparent back channel

:28:41.:28:46.

dealings between Adam Smith and the News Corporation executive Fred

:28:46.:28:51.

Michel. We know that the permanent secretary in the DCMS was aware and

:28:51.:28:56.

agreed with it. He was aware, he was not keen to say he agreed.

:28:56.:28:59.

understand he would said he was made fully aware and was content.

:28:59.:29:05.

Jeremy Heywood was not happy. It is one of these white all

:29:05.:29:09.

weaselly words. Content is one of these words that can mean anything.

:29:09.:29:13.

We will probably have an opportunity to ask Jonathan

:29:13.:29:17.

Stephens when he next comes before the committee. He has said he

:29:17.:29:20.

agrees with the Secretary of State's account, which is that he

:29:20.:29:25.

was happy with the arrangement. That is the principle of collective

:29:25.:29:30.

responsibility, does it apply to Adam Smith and his boss? If Adam

:29:30.:29:36.

Smith was acting directly on the orders of his boss, obviously...

:29:36.:29:41.

just what special advisers are supposed to do. He did go further

:29:41.:29:45.

than he was authorised and there was why he decided to resign.

:29:45.:29:50.

There's a bigger question about the job of special advisers. I was a

:29:50.:29:54.

special adviser a long time ago in the Department of Trade and

:29:54.:29:56.

Industry and the one area I did not get involved in was competition

:29:56.:30:00.

policy because that was a political. But the role of special advisers

:30:00.:30:04.

has changed over the last few years and perhaps we need to look at that

:30:04.:30:13.

I am content to move on to another matter, but I have not necessarily

:30:13.:30:18.

agree to it! I am also content to welcome viewers from Scotland,

:30:18.:30:22.

watching First Minister's Questions at Holyrood, now joining us on

:30:22.:30:26.

Daily Politics live from Westminster. Our first question is,

:30:26.:30:31.

how do you get more women into top jobs? It is an age-old question and

:30:31.:30:35.

when it comes to the legal profession, the Ministry of Justice

:30:35.:30:38.

has been sharing its own ideas on how to create a more diverse

:30:38.:30:43.

judiciary. But lawyers is not the only sector where women are less

:30:43.:30:53.
:30:53.:30:59.

They make up more than half the British population, but when it

:30:59.:31:03.

comes to who is in the top jobs, women rarely come close to hitting

:31:03.:31:08.

the 50% mark, apart from a few exceptions. When it comes to

:31:08.:31:13.

Supreme Court Justices, the figures plummet. In 2011, just 9% of

:31:13.:31:17.

justices at the highest court in the land for women, and at the

:31:17.:31:21.

moment only one woman is employed to sit in that seat. Just as Ben

:31:21.:31:29.

Ali has been outlining plans to get more women and ethnic minorities

:31:29.:31:36.

into those seeds. -- Lord McNally. Government cuts to criminal and

:31:36.:31:41.

family law where women tend to work, is having the opposite effect.

:31:41.:31:45.

result of publicly-funded cuts over 15 years, at the bar, we have a

:31:45.:31:49.

huge retention problem in relation to our women. It is rather sad.

:31:49.:31:57.

When we look at the number of black and minority ethnic that of women

:31:57.:32:04.

entering the profession taking the exams, we are almost equal and it

:32:04.:32:08.

is much higher when it comes to a thing minorities. This is another

:32:08.:32:14.

place where women and the senior ranks are low. Just 22% of MPs

:32:14.:32:18.

positions are filled by women. There is a woman who did reach the

:32:18.:32:23.

top of British politics. But David Cameron's Cabinet has just five

:32:23.:32:27.

women at the table, which is a far cry from the new French President's

:32:27.:32:31.

line-up. This gender equality campaigner tells me that the only

:32:31.:32:36.

answer is to give women a leg-up. We have waited 100 years for

:32:36.:32:39.

equality in Parliament and I think it is time that unless we accept

:32:39.:32:43.

that we have to open the doors to let women come in, we are not going

:32:43.:32:46.

to get the change that we need. What we have got women there, we

:32:46.:32:54.

can allow that change to be more sustainable and it would just be a

:32:54.:32:57.

short-term solution. Respect and deference are two different things,

:32:57.:33:04.

sir. In the world of law, change has come to our TV scenes. -- TV

:33:04.:33:08.

screens. The latest drama shows a woman rising above her male

:33:08.:33:12.

counterparts. But if life is to imitate art, do women need to be

:33:12.:33:18.

bushier? They do not have to be more pushy, they have to be more

:33:18.:33:23.

forceful and determined, I think. I was the first female Asian Queen's

:33:23.:33:26.

counsel appointed in the United Kingdom. I have two children.

:33:26.:33:30.

Therefore I managed to do it but I had to make sacrifices in relation

:33:30.:33:35.

to my children, such as when I was there when they grow up, and I was

:33:35.:33:38.

not for most of the time. You have to be really determined about what

:33:38.:33:46.

you want. So when in need to work harder if these numbers are to rise.

:33:46.:33:50.

-- women need to work harder. But do men have to level the playing

:33:50.:33:55.

field? When you go into the big legal

:33:55.:33:59.

offices in London, the international offices, or in New

:34:00.:34:07.

York, their role women everywhere in the top jobs. Yes. -- there are

:34:07.:34:09.

women everywhere. I suspect they are solicitors rather than

:34:09.:34:15.

barristers. But hasn't the legal profession done reasonably well on

:34:15.:34:21.

the gender balance? I wouldn't say so. Because? In terms of gender

:34:21.:34:24.

balance at the very bottom, at entry level, they are quite a lot

:34:25.:34:29.

of women. As you go up the pyramid, they fall away, and I am afraid

:34:29.:34:32.

that in the top jobs at the top of the pyramid, they are very few

:34:32.:34:38.

women. By the top jobs, you mean the judges? The Supreme Court, the

:34:38.:34:44.

judges. Top barristers? Very few women. Given that they are coming

:34:44.:34:48.

out of university and going into the profession, but they don't make

:34:48.:34:54.

it to the top, why is that? There are a number of reasons. The first

:34:54.:34:59.

is, I suppose, that those that take the decisions do not select women.

:34:59.:35:03.

It has often been suggested that we have a difficult task. We have

:35:03.:35:07.

ovaries, therefore we are going to have children, and then we will

:35:07.:35:13.

take time out. So it is men selecting men? Well, I think it is

:35:13.:35:17.

men selecting men. I know this may be controversial, but when I first

:35:17.:35:22.

came to the Bar in 1983, I was told in very clear terms, that there

:35:22.:35:25.

would be a trickle-down of diversity and quality and all I had

:35:25.:35:30.

to do was wait. I have been waiting for the best part of 30 years and

:35:30.:35:34.

that trickle-down equality has not trickled down to me and people like

:35:34.:35:42.

me and women. I very much regret to say that I doubt very much whether

:35:42.:35:49.

it will trickle down. I think we pay too much lip-service to

:35:49.:35:54.

equality and more women in top jobs. It simply does not happen. We are

:35:54.:35:59.

probably in the same position that we were in 1987. Not much is done.

:35:59.:36:03.

We talk it up and we have interesting debates about it. Do we

:36:03.:36:07.

actually put women in top positions? Of course we don't. And

:36:07.:36:11.

then we say, you know, it is the women. They don't want the top jobs.

:36:11.:36:16.

We are happy to give it to them but they just will not take it.

:36:16.:36:19.

parliamentary briefing paper that we looked at for this said that

:36:19.:36:26.

women have registered some progress in the legal profession. 9%? Moving

:36:26.:36:33.

from 37% in 2001-45% working as solicitors, lawyers, judges and

:36:33.:36:39.

coroners in 2010. -- up to 45%. then when you get up the pyramid,

:36:39.:36:43.

it is 9% of judges in the Supreme Court? It is. That is quite

:36:43.:36:49.

interesting. It bears out the point you are making. But now we have a

:36:49.:36:56.

profession in which 45%, almost equality, are working as solicitors,

:36:56.:37:00.

lawyers, judges and coroners. Surely that 9% changes over time.

:37:00.:37:05.

There is a much bigger base. much time does one need for it to

:37:05.:37:11.

change? I came to the Bar in 1983. The change from 1983 to now was not

:37:11.:37:16.

significant at all. If you look at the amount of women coming into the

:37:16.:37:20.

profession, yes, that has increased. But as you go up to top judges,

:37:21.:37:26.

there has been no progress. How many minorities are there? How many

:37:26.:37:33.

women? How many minorities in the Court of Appeal? Very few. But they

:37:33.:37:37.

are all ancient in the Supreme Court. In a Thwaite, they reflect

:37:37.:37:44.

the legal profession the way it was 30 years ago. -- in a way. And the

:37:44.:37:50.

way it is. 10% of barristers are now from ethnic minorities. That is

:37:50.:37:57.

about the ratio in the country, isn't it? 10%? About that, yes.

:37:57.:38:02.

lot more in London, but as an average of the country. Barristers

:38:02.:38:09.

kind of reflect that. This barrister's kind of reflected. --

:38:09.:38:14.

yes, barristers kind of reflect that. My son wanted to go to the

:38:15.:38:21.

Bar as a barrister. We discussed it. He is not coming, thank goodness!

:38:21.:38:26.

Are you not supporting your industry? No way will we tolerate

:38:26.:38:31.

that. He is going straight to the City! My daughter wanted to be a

:38:31.:38:35.

barrister and we had another discussion about that. She is not

:38:35.:38:39.

coming, thank goodness. She is going to the City. There is a

:38:39.:38:42.

better chance of progress and getting to the top than at the bar.

:38:42.:38:46.

I have been working for 30 years and I do not want my children to

:38:46.:38:53.

wait for 30 years. That is not going to happen. Take that!

:38:53.:38:59.

City can welcome them with open arms. Online pornography, how to

:38:59.:39:02.

stop your children accidentally stumbling across it and seeking it

:39:02.:39:05.

out as they get older is a challenge for any parent with the

:39:05.:39:09.

computer and internet connection. In an attempt to tackle this, the

:39:09.:39:12.

Government is going to consider introducing new filters, which

:39:12.:39:18.

would block adult material as a default. But Nick Pickles from Big

:39:18.:39:23.

Brother Watch does not think this is a good idea.

:39:23.:39:27.

Parents are always worried about what their children are up to, and

:39:27.:39:31.

how to make sure that, when they are in their bedroom and out with

:39:31.:39:37.

friends, they are safe. And the internet brings new challenges.

:39:37.:39:40.

Parents need to make sure their children are not seeing something

:39:40.:39:44.

appropriate and that they are safe online. I put forward a default

:39:44.:39:49.

block on any content that is deemed inappropriate, from pornography to

:39:49.:39:59.
:39:59.:40:00.

gambling websites. I really do not Since 2008, there have been two

:40:00.:40:04.

Major Government reviews into how we keep children safe online. Both

:40:04.:40:10.

of these reviews rejected the idea of a default filter and actually

:40:10.:40:13.

focused on the idea of parents being able to talk to their

:40:13.:40:17.

children and making informed decisions themselves. In the USA,

:40:17.:40:22.

the White House's chief technical expert rejected blocking because it

:40:22.:40:26.

would introduce a new security risks to the internet and in

:40:26.:40:29.

Holland, internet service providers introduced the system, only to

:40:29.:40:33.

abandon it when it did not work. And Ofcom have concluded that

:40:33.:40:36.

blocks are trivial to circumvent and not with implementing in the

:40:36.:40:46.

first place. -- not worth implementing. Yes, more does need

:40:46.:40:50.

to be done, but technology is not a substitute for parenting. When you

:40:50.:40:53.

buy a new PC and have broadband installed, you should be given a

:40:53.:40:57.

simple choice about whether you want to install controls. They

:40:57.:41:01.

should be a straightforward helpline for parents. But this is

:41:01.:41:04.

already happening. Ultimately it is for parents to decide what their

:41:04.:41:07.

children look at online. The alternative is that the Government

:41:07.:41:11.

decides what we can all see online, and that is a very, very dangerous

:41:11.:41:18.

step to take. In the studio with me is Nick

:41:18.:41:20.

Pickles and the Conservative MP Claire Perry, who chaired the

:41:20.:41:24.

parliamentary inquiry into online child protection. Can I start with

:41:24.:41:29.

you? As part of the research, how easy is it to access pornography?

:41:29.:41:34.

From a child's perspective? The way we are supposed to protect our

:41:34.:41:40.

families now is to download filters on to every internet enabled device.

:41:40.:41:44.

You download protection on to everything, which the internet

:41:44.:41:47.

service provider is keen for you to do, and they provide filters for

:41:47.:41:51.

free. It is the parent's responsibility to keep their child

:41:51.:41:55.

safe, and that extends to the internet world, absolutely. The

:41:55.:41:59.

problem is that less than four out of 10 of parents by using those

:41:59.:42:03.

filters. 50% of parents say that their children know more about the

:42:03.:42:07.

internet than they do. We have got to the situation where millions of

:42:07.:42:11.

children are accessing things, but not just pornography, anorexia

:42:11.:42:17.

sides, suicide sides, self-harm. And it is easy to do. Is it

:42:17.:42:22.

damaging and do people care? We asked that question, and 83% of

:42:22.:42:25.

people are really worried about how easy it is to access online adult

:42:25.:42:30.

material. How effective would filters actually be? You have said

:42:30.:42:34.

it yourself, and I know from my experience, my children are very

:42:34.:42:39.

computer-literate. They are going to find ways round it. Not if they

:42:39.:42:42.

are looking for pornography, but they will find their way around

:42:42.:42:47.

Fildes. Young children stumble across it when they are typing in

:42:47.:42:50.

the innocent search term, and then the older children who are curious

:42:50.:42:56.

about sexuality. It was ever thus. The problem with the current set-up,

:42:56.:43:01.

is they have to go on every device, and in some houses that is up to 17.

:43:01.:43:05.

And they are relatively easy to circumvent. And public Wi-Fi is

:43:05.:43:09.

relatively free of filters. This idea of an opt-in, where you choose

:43:09.:43:13.

to get the adult material, but the default setting is free from adult

:43:13.:43:17.

material, that is a much safer option. What is wrong with that

:43:17.:43:22.

plan? A before you get to the choice of opting in or out, someone

:43:22.:43:25.

has to decide what is blocked. I agree fully with the Foreign

:43:25.:43:27.

Secretary, that this is not something the Government should be

:43:27.:43:31.

doing. Britain is leading the world in campaigning for a free and open

:43:31.:43:35.

internet and the benefits that have brought. But at the same time, we

:43:35.:43:40.

are having this debate. Is it any wonder that last year the Chinese

:43:40.:43:45.

state media praise Britain for controlling the internet as a new

:43:45.:43:47.

opportunity for the world? This is about censorship at the end of the

:43:48.:43:52.

day. Do you not accept the damage that it does to children? That you

:43:52.:43:57.

are putting an automatic block on pornography sites, so how is that

:43:57.:44:02.

censorship? There are two points there. By now, mobile phone

:44:02.:44:06.

operators are blocking the BNP's website as part of their child

:44:06.:44:11.

protection. -- right now. Whatever we think of that, it is not

:44:11.:44:14.

pornography, and do we want the Government making that same view?

:44:14.:44:17.

If you buy a device, it should be prompted, and more effort should be

:44:17.:44:21.

made by suppliers. Parents should have a simpler way of getting

:44:21.:44:28.

support. But if you make those choices on your devices, it is up

:44:28.:44:33.

to you. We reject that. If there was censorship, the watershed would

:44:33.:44:39.

be censored. You have to opt in to get adult contact on your website.

:44:39.:44:46.

And the BNP website! That is why you need to have human intelligence

:44:46.:44:49.

around filters. And it is brilliant that we are talking about this

:44:49.:44:54.

problem. Finally it is on the Daily Politics. 60 websites have been

:44:54.:44:58.

blocked in the first quarter, and that was not right. Millions and

:44:58.:45:01.

millions of websites, with arguably very degrading and damaging

:45:01.:45:05.

pornographic material, because it is not borne as we knew it that we

:45:05.:45:11.

are worried about, it is the degrading and extreme stuff. --

:45:11.:45:16.

porn. We know that the current system is not working. Our children

:45:16.:45:21.

are accessing stuff with these are known, social, long-term

:45:21.:45:30.

consequences. -- unknown. We should bring this in, because we have six

:45:30.:45:33.

out of 10 of people supporting it. There is a difference between

:45:33.:45:38.

popular support for control and the Government mandated a list of

:45:38.:45:42.

websites. Your report calls for Government consultation into a

:45:42.:45:45.

network filter across the whole of the UK and the Government should

:45:45.:45:55.
:45:55.:45:55.

consider introducing VAT. That is a Government led website control.

:45:55.:45:59.

me just continue. The current filtering technology is provided by

:45:59.:46:05.

all of the internet service providers and is installed on every

:46:05.:46:08.

lap top, that already has definitions of what is and is not

:46:08.:46:18.
:46:18.:46:18.

acceptable and we would use that You have got children. Would some

:46:18.:46:27.

sort of block, adopting, would that be so wrong? Can I just say before

:46:27.:46:33.

I answer that question that it must be of grave concern that a minister

:46:33.:46:38.

is going to dictate to the British citizens what they can and can't

:46:38.:46:43.

access on the internet. I don't think that is what we are proposing.

:46:43.:46:48.

I don't think that a minister should be getting involved in this.

:46:48.:46:55.

Where do we stop? Do we sense of violence? Do we sense or politics

:46:55.:46:59.

or political views that are not conducive to the present

:46:59.:47:05.

government? Can we watch sex in the City? That is the problem. It is

:47:05.:47:13.

who is doing it. Forgive me, I absolutely agree that we should

:47:13.:47:17.

have more protective measures when it comes to children. Perhaps we

:47:17.:47:22.

ought to re-educate parents because we would save a lot more money

:47:22.:47:28.

telling them how to fix their filters on. I do think when a

:47:28.:47:34.

minister starts to dictate to us in this country what we should and

:47:34.:47:40.

should not seek is unacceptable. one is suggesting that. We are

:47:40.:47:43.

suggesting the eye S Ps work together on this. They already use

:47:43.:47:49.

these filters. Why is the internet any different? We accept these

:47:50.:47:53.

filters on every other form of media, whether it is television,

:47:53.:47:58.

film ratings, mobile phone us. Why is the internet any different? It

:47:58.:48:07.

isn't. Thank you. After I saw the second sex And The

:48:07.:48:12.

City movie, I was convinced it should be banned it was so awful!

:48:12.:48:15.

What can be done to help motorists with the cost of petrol? Yesterday,

:48:15.:48:18.

MPs discussed ideas including cancelling the planned 3p rise in

:48:18.:48:24.

fuel duty due in August. But could the Chancellor afford that? Here's

:48:24.:48:34.
:48:34.:48:38.

Said he really he of Tesco said that feeling that the family car

:48:38.:48:43.

has gone up by 70% in two years, causing what was a steady recovery

:48:43.:48:49.

to go sideways. Myself and others and most fair-minded people will

:48:49.:48:52.

recognise the government have made significant progress, abolishing

:48:52.:48:57.

the last government's fuel duty escalator, scrapping the planned

:48:57.:49:01.

hikes in 2011 and a 1 p cut in duty last year and a partial fuel

:49:01.:49:08.

stabiliser as well up as a freeze in the duty in January this year.

:49:08.:49:13.

But we face considerable problems and that first is the planned tax

:49:13.:49:18.

rise in August, which I'm asking the government to reconsider.

:49:18.:49:22.

Second, we need a serious inquiry into the lack of competitiveness in

:49:22.:49:26.

the oil market and possibly even a windfall tax on law firms to cut

:49:26.:49:31.

prices. Third, there's a problem of banks speculating on the price of

:49:31.:49:37.

oil. At a time when fuel costs are rising and it costs more to fill a

:49:37.:49:42.

car and he jaw home than to buy groceries, is it not now time for a

:49:42.:49:46.

windfall tax on oil companies? own belief is that in order to cut

:49:46.:49:51.

prices at the pump, the government needs to seriously look at another

:49:51.:49:59.

windfall tax on the oil companies. Calls for the August increase to be

:49:59.:50:02.

scrapped do raise a very important question. We would need to consider

:50:02.:50:07.

how to replace the �1.5 billion it would cost to do so. This money

:50:07.:50:12.

would need to come from higher taxes or lower spending elsewhere.

:50:12.:50:17.

We have recognised the impact of high oil -- higher oil prices. The

:50:17.:50:21.

previous government had no credible plan to deal with the debts they

:50:21.:50:25.

created, nor a credible plan to support motorists, however we have

:50:25.:50:30.

listened and responded in our time in government. We cut fuel duty, we

:50:30.:50:34.

scrapped their escalator, we have ensured there would be only one

:50:34.:50:39.

thing crate -- inflation-linked increase this year. We will have

:50:39.:50:42.

kept fuel duty frozen for 16 months and we will continue to support

:50:42.:50:48.

motorists. We've been joined by one of the MPs

:50:48.:50:50.

who spoke in that debate, Conservative backbencher Robert

:50:50.:50:53.

Halfon, and by Sian Berry from the Campaign for Better Transport.

:50:53.:51:03.
:51:03.:51:04.

Welcome to the Daily Politics. Let's continue the debate.

:51:04.:51:07.

Interpreting what the minister had to say, she basically said we have

:51:07.:51:12.

done a lot of May -- already, we have no money, you are not on.

:51:12.:51:16.

have to continue the campaign. We've asked the government to stop

:51:16.:51:21.

Yorkist rise, we want an Office of Fair Trading investigation into the

:51:21.:51:24.

UN competitiveness of the oil companies and we want them to look

:51:24.:51:28.

seriously at the windfall tax of mail companies. Doesn't that

:51:28.:51:33.

increase the pump at the price? your oil companies are already

:51:33.:51:37.

behaving uncompetitive rate and the price of oil, when it is high, the

:51:37.:51:41.

price at the pumps go up, but when the oil price falls, it takes much

:51:41.:51:45.

longer to get passed on to motorists at the pump. When the

:51:45.:51:51.

price of oil falls, as it has done recently, $95 a barrel at the

:51:51.:51:55.

moment, should that be reflected in lower prices or a tax rise to keep

:51:55.:52:03.

a constant? You asking me? That why you're here. We have a serious

:52:03.:52:07.

long-term problem with the petrol market. There are short-term

:52:07.:52:13.

problems with speculators making it more expensive. But petrol prices

:52:13.:52:19.

will go up. We have to do more to reduce people's reliance on the car.

:52:19.:52:23.

Chloe Smith was talking about not having money available. If there's

:52:23.:52:28.

going to be money available, it has to go on improving public transport

:52:28.:52:33.

before it goes into petrol. We have to live in the real world. My

:52:33.:52:39.

constituents will get up at 5am, have to drive his lorry, and is

:52:39.:52:41.

paying an extortionate amount on petrol. The average Harlow resident

:52:41.:52:48.

is paying a 10th of their income every year on fuel. Motorists are

:52:48.:52:54.

facing fuel poverty. If we stopped the August rise, we will put �1.8

:52:54.:52:59.

million back into the economy and create jobs. We would not...

:52:59.:53:06.

would not object to a freeze. Any kind of cut is going to be public

:53:07.:53:09.

spending and it does need to go into things that are more

:53:09.:53:14.

constructive, more about the future, more about reducing people's car

:53:14.:53:17.

dependency long term. You will not be able to fight this rise in the

:53:17.:53:22.

long term. In real terms, fuel duty is lower than it has been for quite

:53:22.:53:26.

a while. If there's money available, it should go into something more

:53:26.:53:34.

worthwhile. It hasn't gone up in real terms. If you look at the

:53:34.:53:37.

figures and the former chairman of Tesco will confirm this, the price

:53:37.:53:41.

of petrol and diesel and the last couple of years has gone up by 70%.

:53:41.:53:48.

Oil prices have risen. Last year, or oil prices fell by 5.5% yet they

:53:48.:53:53.

were only reduced by 1.5% at the pumps and took a long time to get

:53:53.:53:59.

that decrease. Off the government has done a lot to cut petrol tax

:53:59.:54:04.

last year, and stopping the January rise, but they need to go further.

:54:04.:54:08.

It hasn't got any money. This is why I'm suggesting we have a

:54:08.:54:12.

windfall tax on the oil companies which would raise the money and

:54:12.:54:17.

that money would be passed directly to the motorist under-insured

:54:17.:54:20.

millions of pounds were injected back into the economy. We will

:54:20.:54:24.

leave it there. Now, sit back, chillax and have a

:54:24.:54:31.

glass or two of wine. I have had! Better not suggest that

:54:31.:54:37.

to David Cameron, though, as you might just get your head bitten off.

:54:37.:54:39.

Using our hard-won credibility which we would not have if we

:54:39.:54:44.

litter -- listened to the muttering idiot opposite Mai. It prevents the

:54:44.:54:49.

bullies from hitting him, the Prime Minister. The honourable gentleman

:54:49.:54:53.

has the right at any time to take his pension and I advise him to do

:54:53.:55:02.

so. Calm down, dear. Listen to the doctor. Calm down and listen to the

:55:02.:55:05.

doctor. It is good to see the honourable gentleman on such good

:55:05.:55:09.

form, I often say to my children, no need to go to the National

:55:09.:55:13.

History Museum to see a dinosaur, come to the House of Commons. I

:55:13.:55:20.

know the honourable lady is extremely frustrated about... Maybe

:55:20.:55:30.
:55:30.:55:33.

I'm going to give up on this one. think that was the right decision.

:55:33.:55:37.

We're joined now by the journalist Iain Martin. Does the Prime

:55:37.:55:42.

Minister have a problem with his temper? It is a good thing that the

:55:42.:55:45.

Prime Minister has a temper. It shows there's blood flowing through

:55:45.:55:50.

his veins rather than iced water. People who don't have a tempers

:55:50.:55:54.

tend to be saints or very boring. But he's clearly having a problem

:55:54.:55:57.

controlling it and whilst it is good that he cares and he takes his

:55:57.:56:02.

politics seriously, what happened yesterday looked very unlike a

:56:02.:56:06.

prime minister. Was it more than that? Does he lose the argument if

:56:06.:56:12.

he snaps back at Ed Balls, in this case, and says you are muttering

:56:12.:56:17.

idiot. His benches fall about laughing, does it matter that much

:56:17.:56:23.

or does it show that he has lost it? Be matters because at the

:56:23.:56:27.

moment, look at the situation to government is in, the economic

:56:27.:56:32.

crisis, everything else that is happening, you really need if you

:56:32.:56:35.

are Prime Minister, one of the strongest cards you have is being

:56:35.:56:41.

calm in a crisis. When he does what he did yesterday to Ed Balls, he

:56:41.:56:44.

throws that away. Ed Miliband has picked up on this and has changed

:56:44.:56:48.

his style over the last few months. He has definitely gone for

:56:48.:56:53.

something much calmer and more deliberately statesmanlike, as

:56:53.:56:57.

Cameron loses his temper, Ed Miliband finds his voice. What do

:56:57.:57:02.

you think? One of the other incidents was where he made a

:57:02.:57:06.

comment about Ed Balls, a gain. He is sitting right across and what

:57:06.:57:10.

they will say is the microphones and cameras don't quite pick up a

:57:10.:57:13.

lot of the provocation. Not that I'm saying it is justified, but

:57:13.:57:20.

there's a lot of heckling. He also said Ed Ball was akin to having

:57:20.:57:23.

something with to read syndrome sitting opposite. Is that

:57:23.:57:29.

appropriate? It may not be. It probably isn't appropriate. But the

:57:29.:57:32.

man in the Street will understand what it is like to lose one's

:57:32.:57:39.

temper when one is being severely provoked. This is not a permanent

:57:39.:57:44.

bad mark. He lost his temper. He might do with some anger management

:57:44.:57:51.

courses. Oh no he wouldn't! I know of some very good ones if he wishes

:57:51.:57:57.

to avail himself to that facility. He might wish to take Ed Balls with

:57:57.:58:02.

him. Let's see how he was described. Do you remember the quiz at the

:58:02.:58:09.

Stade? Let's listen to who said this about David Cameron. We have

:58:09.:58:15.

got the quiz answer. My fault! Somebody said he was quite volatile.

:58:15.:58:25.
:58:25.:58:26.

Do we know the answer? Norman Lamont. He was his boss when he was

:58:26.:58:30.

Chancellor of the Exchequer and David Cameron was special adviser.

:58:30.:58:35.

The frustrated Merc -- remark about women, is that good politically?

:58:35.:58:42.

To be fair to him, he did withdraw that immediately because he did

:58:42.:58:46.

realise he was through the water! That's it. Special thanks to

:58:46.:58:51.

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