11/06/2012 Daily Politics


11/06/2012

Jo Coburn has the top political stories of the day.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 11/06/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Good afternoon, welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:41.:00:44.

The markets react positively to the 100 billion euro bailout of Spain's

:00:44.:00:49.

banks. But is the dramatic move enough to stop the rot?

:00:49.:00:52.

The Leveson Inquiry is set for a high-profile week with Gordon Brown

:00:52.:00:56.

and George Osborne appearing today, and David Cameron on Thursday.

:00:56.:01:00.

We'll have the latest. Theresa May tells the courts to

:01:00.:01:04.

stop using European Human Rights law to block deportations. We'll

:01:04.:01:09.

debate Britain's membership of the European Court for Human Rights.

:01:09.:01:13.

And lovely weather for cycling! Could we ever go Dutch and make

:01:13.:01:23.
:01:23.:01:31.

All that in the next hour. With us is Baroness Helena Kennedy.

:01:32.:01:35.

Lukewarm applause, the breathing space to stagger on to the next

:01:35.:01:41.

round, but no clear sign we will make it through. Not England's

:01:41.:01:46.

chances at Euro 2012, but the future of the eurozone. After the

:01:46.:01:50.

100 billion euros bail-out of Spain's Banks, the markets have

:01:50.:01:54.

reacted positively. But many are saying it is buying time rather

:01:54.:02:00.

than solving the issue. Is this a big moment, the bail-out will calm

:02:00.:02:04.

the markets enough and the eurozone has been saved? Or is it just a

:02:04.:02:10.

sticking plaster? I think it is just a sticking plaster. It will

:02:10.:02:14.

work for while and will help the banks in Spain, but I don't think

:02:14.:02:19.

it will be a solution in the long run. There is a problem around the

:02:19.:02:23.

eurozone with the institutions. It is good Spain because their banks

:02:23.:02:28.

are going to be sorted to some extent. Some people say it is not

:02:28.:02:33.

enough, the bail-out. It has created a lot of resentment because

:02:33.:02:37.

they have been treated differently. Conditions are not attached?

:02:37.:02:43.

Absolut gleeful stock they have a much safer situation in many

:02:43.:02:49.

respects. There crisis comes out of his property bubble that there was.

:02:49.:02:54.

But I don't see this as being the answer on the eurozone. There are

:02:54.:02:59.

issues around the whole model, the whole economic model on which this

:02:59.:03:04.

is being based. I have some problems also with the simple

:03:04.:03:08.

solutions of greater austerity and save the banks. You have to look at

:03:08.:03:12.

issues on how growth is created. I say that as someone who thinks we

:03:12.:03:18.

should be part of Europe, and they don't want it to feed into as a

:03:18.:03:22.

general sense that people have in Britain, thank goodness we are not

:03:22.:03:26.

in the Euro. And if we get the chance leads to pull away from us

:03:26.:03:30.

all together. You can see why people are not part -- Britain is

:03:30.:03:35.

not part of the eurozone because we are being spare part of the

:03:35.:03:41.

problem? I am one of them, believe me. I am grateful to Gordon Brown

:03:41.:03:45.

for keeping us out because Tony Blair was so keen to go in. But I

:03:45.:03:49.

believe in a global world with global markets, we have to be part

:03:49.:03:55.

of something bigger. I say this to people who think, let's cut all the

:03:55.:03:59.

ties with Europe. It won't work because most of our products are

:03:59.:04:03.

sold in Europe and we have good economic relationships with those

:04:03.:04:07.

who betrayed with. What about having a referendum to let the

:04:08.:04:12.

people decide? I would be worried about having it now because at this

:04:12.:04:17.

moment, the debate is too crude. I would want there to be a more

:04:17.:04:21.

sophisticated debate about what are the benefits to us for having links

:04:21.:04:25.

with Europe. What would be the downside if we ended up going it

:04:25.:04:30.

alone. Been little Brits is not going to do it in a globalised

:04:30.:04:36.

world where we see huge entities developing at a pace. Now, with the

:04:36.:04:41.

Jubilee behind us, all eyes are back on Leveson Inquiry, as it

:04:41.:04:47.

continues its relationship -- look into the relationship between the

:04:47.:04:56.

press and politicians. A-list celebrities have given evidence.

:04:56.:05:02.

Jeremy Irons's face the heat as he and his lobbyist, Fred Michel face

:05:02.:05:07.

questions over his handling of the BSkyB bid. There will be a bumper

:05:07.:05:11.

line-up of high-profile witnesses. Gordon Brown is facing inquiry,

:05:12.:05:16.

with George Osborne due to give evidence this afternoon. The

:05:16.:05:20.

Chancellor's role in the hiring of Andy Coulson is expected to

:05:20.:05:26.

dominate. Ed Miliband, and Harriet Harman will take to the witness box

:05:26.:05:31.

tomorrow alongside John Major. Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg

:05:31.:05:35.

and Scottish First Minister, Alex Salmond give evidence on Wednesday.

:05:35.:05:40.

And the week ends up on Thursday as the Prime Minister is the sole

:05:40.:05:47.

witness who will expect detailed questions about Jeremy Hunt and

:05:47.:05:57.

Andy Coulson as well as Rebekah Brooks.

:05:57.:06:05.

I find it sad that even now in 2012, members of News International are

:06:05.:06:09.

coming to this enquiry and maintaining this fiction that a

:06:09.:06:13.

story that could only have been achieved or maintained through

:06:13.:06:17.

medical information, or through me and my wife, which we never did, of

:06:17.:06:21.

course - was obtained in another way. We cannot learn the lessons of

:06:21.:06:27.

what has happened with the media unless there is some honesty about

:06:27.:06:31.

what actually happened. Whether payment was made and whether this

:06:31.:06:36.

is a practice that could continue. If we don't at root out this kind

:06:36.:06:40.

of practice, I don't think we can sensibly say we have dealt with

:06:40.:06:45.

some of the abuses that are problematical for us. Let's stop

:06:45.:06:49.

now to our correspondent who is outside the inquiry at the Royal

:06:49.:06:53.

Courts of Justice. I have only listen to some of it, and the

:06:53.:06:57.

impression you get is that Gordon Brown is a man who is trying to get

:06:58.:07:01.

things off his chest. This is therapeutic for him to talk about

:07:01.:07:05.

some of the grievances he felt in terms of how he was dealt with by

:07:05.:07:10.

the press when he was Prime Minister? Gordon Brown sees this as

:07:10.:07:17.

more than therapy. It for him he is setting a record us -- straight. If

:07:17.:07:20.

you read the records he put out during this inquiry with a cynical

:07:21.:07:25.

mind, you could possibly see gaps in which she did not wholly deny

:07:25.:07:31.

everything. He has been straightforward, he contradicts

:07:32.:07:38.

what Rebekah Brooks says. Rebekah Brooks said they had permission up

:07:38.:07:42.

from Gordon Brown and his family to publish the story about his son and

:07:42.:07:48.

cystic fibrosis. He said that is not the case. Rupert Murdoch has

:07:48.:07:51.

said Gordon Brown declared it on the phone to him that he would make

:07:51.:07:56.

war on his company. They call did not happen that were at the time

:07:56.:08:01.

when Rupert Murdoch said it happened. But when there was a call

:08:01.:08:07.

someone Slater, though was no threat. Be very clear contradiction,

:08:07.:08:13.

which when people are talking under oath, it is a serious business.

:08:13.:08:17.

People will ask questions, someone is not telling the truth. Looking

:08:18.:08:23.

ahead, what can we expect? We have George Osborne coming up this

:08:23.:08:31.

afternoon. We did have a warning, a strict warning from Lord Justice

:08:31.:08:35.

Leveson that us in the media shouldn't be reporting the tittle-

:08:35.:08:40.

tattle and who is up and down of Westminster out of this. We hear is

:08:40.:08:44.

a Chancellor whose judgment has been questioned and will have to

:08:44.:08:48.

account for the decision to give Andy Coulson a job as director of

:08:48.:08:54.

communications, and if it was him responsible to give Jeremy Hunt,

:08:54.:09:02.

the job as the News Corporation BSkyB bid. George Osborne possibly

:09:02.:09:12.
:09:12.:09:17.

will hear from George Osborne this afternoon. The judgment of David

:09:17.:09:21.

Cameron and George Osborne will be called into question in terms of

:09:21.:09:26.

the appointment of Andy Coulson. The role of Jeremy hands over

:09:26.:09:31.

BSkyB? We have had these sessions so far with senior members of the

:09:31.:09:36.

Government, Jeremy hands giving evidence. It has given a clearer

:09:36.:09:40.

picture of what went on and in terms of the procedure that was

:09:40.:09:44.

following her over the Sky bid, it was not compromised by any external

:09:44.:09:50.

oblique. You think Jeremy Hunt's position is secure? From what we

:09:50.:09:55.

have heard so far, yes. Was he right to abuse whether this deal

:09:55.:09:59.

should go through before he was given responsibility for it? People

:09:59.:10:04.

can debate that. That his views get in the way of the due process he

:10:04.:10:08.

had to follow, and there is no evidence it did. Perhaps the more

:10:08.:10:13.

pertinent question is to George Osborne, the Chancellor's Texan

:10:13.:10:20.

Essex to the Culture Secretary, "I hope you like our solution on the

:10:21.:10:26.

day the bid for BSkyB was handed to Jeremy Hunt". One did you think he

:10:26.:10:30.

meant by that? I don't know, but was is unreasonable that the

:10:30.:10:37.

Government should ask he should have taken over the responsibility

:10:37.:10:42.

for this bid? Even though he had made his position clear and said he

:10:42.:10:47.

was in favour of it, it was the same as Vince Cable saying he was

:10:47.:10:53.

against? He was more than sympathetic. The memo he sent to

:10:53.:10:57.

the Prime Minister, he said whatever happens, to allow the

:10:57.:11:02.

takeover bid to go ahead, has to be made on media polarity grounds. If

:11:02.:11:06.

you fail on that task, the chances are it will be reviewed. He did

:11:06.:11:11.

follow those principles when he handled it. Let's come back to the

:11:11.:11:14.

George Osborne point, what do you think he meant when he said in a

:11:14.:11:19.

text message, I think you are like a solution, which was to hand it

:11:19.:11:24.

over to Jeremy Hunt? I have no idea, it is a text message. He will have

:11:24.:11:29.

the chance this afternoon to speak about it. Was it unreasonable to

:11:29.:11:34.

ask Jeremy Hunt to take on this role? Absolutely not. Is there any

:11:34.:11:41.

evidence he handled it badly or suede? Not at all. Do you think

:11:41.:11:46.

Jeremy Hunt should have been reported for breaching the

:11:46.:11:50.

ministerial code? I don't think he did breach the ministerial code.

:11:50.:11:56.

Should he have been reported so he could establish that? No, when you

:11:56.:12:01.

have a public inquiry under way, it was right to allow that to take

:12:01.:12:09.

precedence. I don't think any evidence that has come out of this

:12:09.:12:15.

inquiry that this should be brought in. We're interested, Baroness

:12:15.:12:22.

Warsi has been referred, have they been treated equitably? She has

:12:23.:12:25.

admitted some irregularities and that has not happened with Jeremy

:12:25.:12:31.

Hunt. The decision to bring in Andy Coulson, who's to blame for that?

:12:31.:12:35.

The Prime Minister said last year when this was debated in Parliament,

:12:35.:12:41.

he was given assurances by Andy Coulson, the same assurances given

:12:41.:12:44.

to Scottish court and select committee is, if the Prime Minister

:12:44.:12:49.

was misled in terms of what Andy Coulson you about phone hacking, he

:12:49.:12:55.

was not the only one misled. Andy Coulson said he was only asked once

:12:55.:13:00.

about assurances in terms of phone hacking? He was asked. His once

:13:00.:13:04.

enough? He was asked and assurances were given and it turns out the

:13:04.:13:08.

Prime Minister was misled, along with other people, too. All this is

:13:08.:13:13.

coming out in the open, and we know why it is going on. The question

:13:13.:13:16.

Gordon Brown has not answered this morning is, we knew this was going

:13:16.:13:21.

on years ago, and there would be questions to answer. Nothing was

:13:21.:13:27.

done about it. Let's pick up on Gordon Brown, first of all. He is

:13:27.:13:31.

trying to set the record straight, as our correspondent set out. Is

:13:31.:13:36.

there a level of hypocrisy in terms of the fact he was fraternising

:13:36.:13:41.

with News Corporation in the same way as others? This story is

:13:41.:13:45.

riddled with hypocrisy for all senior politicians because they put

:13:45.:13:50.

up with it for years. Let's be clear, when he says we are the good

:13:50.:13:54.

guys because we called the inquiry, but they have to because the game

:13:54.:13:57.

was up. Something had to be done and that is why there was an

:13:57.:14:03.

inquiry. It would have happened in the same way for whoever was in

:14:03.:14:07.

Government. I hope you are rewarded for your great loyalties to

:14:07.:14:13.

everybody around the story. Because it does not bear examination.

:14:13.:14:17.

Sometimes as a QC, I feel I would love to have the opportunity to

:14:17.:14:22.

cross-examine some people on it. It goes back to the business of, here

:14:22.:14:27.

you came into Government in a coalition. There was a hoped some

:14:27.:14:31.

things would be different, because there was a bad smell. But it

:14:31.:14:35.

became clear have to get it points man. The points man who was brought

:14:35.:14:40.

in to be the middle person between you and News International was Andy

:14:40.:14:47.

Coulson. A terrible mistake? Let's go back on this point, which is we

:14:47.:14:51.

have to call this inquiry now. Tony Blair was asked about this and he

:14:51.:14:55.

said the Labour Party was not in a position to go to war with the

:14:55.:15:00.

press in 2007. He did try, I know it is up to the Prime Minister to

:15:00.:15:04.

make the decision, but he did say it could lead to a judicial review.

:15:04.:15:09.

And there was an attempt. He became Prime Minister in months of this

:15:09.:15:13.

debate taking place. And at the time of the information

:15:13.:15:19.

commissioner report. And also the claim which is the Prime Minister,

:15:19.:15:23.

David Cameron said this Government would be whiter than white and

:15:23.:15:27.

transparency would be the byword for this Government. The Leveson

:15:27.:15:32.

inquiry seems to have laid claim to that. We have never had greater

:15:32.:15:35.

disclosure about the contact of senior members of the Government

:15:35.:15:41.

with senior members of the media. The Prime Minister called the

:15:41.:15:48.

inquiry with the support of the There's an inquiry which is

:15:48.:15:52.

producing information. The idea that the Secretary of State for

:15:53.:16:01.

culture media and sport had been basically on side with News

:16:01.:16:07.

International, was in contact with e-mails and text messages more than

:16:07.:16:12.

most people have with their lover, with their wife. It was a contact

:16:12.:16:17.

that was absolutely showing they were in the pockets of News

:16:17.:16:21.

International. I take issue with that. You have to distinguish

:16:21.:16:25.

between contact before the responsibility and afterwards. I'm

:16:25.:16:29.

not trying to say one government is whiter than white. When Gordon

:16:29.:16:33.

Brown tries to create this fantasy that somehow he was distant from

:16:33.:16:36.

the media, that the Labour Party took a very different approach, as

:16:36.:16:42.

Rupert Murdoch said himself, he was closer to Gordon Brown than any

:16:42.:16:45.

other senior politician throughout this period. Gordon Brown never

:16:45.:16:50.

mentioned phone hacking. What tone should George Osborne be setting

:16:50.:16:54.

this afternoon? It is a serious inquiry and he will give evidence

:16:54.:16:59.

in a serious way. People will want to know about the text message and

:16:59.:17:01.

today is an opportunity to end the speculation and set the record

:17:01.:17:05.

straight. Thank you. Theresa May, the Home Secretary, is

:17:05.:17:09.

gearing up for yet another battle with the courts - this time over

:17:09.:17:11.

whether foreign prisoners' rights to a family life should mean they

:17:11.:17:14.

can avoid being deported. It's a long-running saga, but just one of

:17:14.:17:16.

many tussles between successive British governments and the

:17:16.:17:19.

judiciary. In particular, ministers have been at loggerheads with the

:17:19.:17:21.

Strasbourg-based European Court of Human Rights, with the current

:17:21.:17:24.

government keen for reform and some Tory backbenchers saying we should

:17:24.:17:28.

pull out altogether. But can a workable balance be struck between

:17:28.:17:38.
:17:38.:17:43.

politicians and judges? We sent This is Belmarsh prison in south-

:17:43.:17:47.

east London. It holds some of the country's most dangerous inmates,

:17:47.:17:51.

including some who have been accused of terrorist offences. But

:17:51.:17:54.

who decides he will end up here and what their rights should be? It is

:17:54.:18:02.

not always asked. Sometimes, it is the judges who sit here, the

:18:02.:18:04.

European Court of Human Rights. Britain helped set it up and we

:18:04.:18:08.

abide by its decisions even when they override our own courts and

:18:08.:18:12.

Parliament. There's the blocking of Britain's attempt to deport Abu

:18:12.:18:16.

Qatada, although they have rejected his latest appeal. Then there's

:18:16.:18:20.

votes for prisoners and the rights to a family life of up MPs and

:18:20.:18:23.

ministers, dead set against, European Court says they should

:18:23.:18:28.

have them. It makes some Tory MPs blood boil. But here's the thing. A

:18:28.:18:32.

lot of Lib Dems like the European Court under laws that go with it.

:18:32.:18:36.

David Cameron had to find a way of keeping everyone happy so he set up

:18:36.:18:41.

a commission to look at creating a British Bill of Rights one also

:18:41.:18:45.

reforming the European Court of Human Rights. All fine, until one

:18:45.:18:49.

of the commissioners came onto the Sunday politics and said this.

:18:49.:18:53.

After one year, it is now clear that it has been intended all along

:18:53.:19:03.

to issue a report in favour of the status quo. We have considered the

:19:03.:19:07.

question of parliamentary sovereignty only once in the whole

:19:07.:19:12.

year that we've been in existence. I'm afraid it leaves me with no

:19:12.:19:20.

alternative but to resign. I think the cause is so important to look

:19:20.:19:24.

in a mature way at human rights and to make it consistent with

:19:24.:19:29.

parliamentary sovereignty that I do need to pursue it, but not on the

:19:29.:19:34.

commission. So is the commission likely to actually please anyone?

:19:34.:19:38.

think the most the commission are going to do is define the problem,

:19:38.:19:42.

to assess whether there's a problem and what it is. They are not going

:19:42.:19:46.

to come up with any clear solutions and if there are solutions, they

:19:46.:19:51.

will go out for consideration and discussion. We can't expect to see

:19:51.:19:55.

a bill before the next general election and who knows what the

:19:55.:19:57.

political complexion will be after that. High but some critics think

:19:58.:20:02.

that is not good enough and that if we can't reform the European Court

:20:02.:20:05.

and established his supremacy of Parliament, we should go. But is

:20:06.:20:10.

that really an option? If you want to join the European Union as an

:20:10.:20:15.

emerging democracy, you must first sign up to the human rights

:20:15.:20:18.

convention and joined the Council of Europe. If we were to pull out

:20:18.:20:23.

of the Convention, would we have to pull out of the EU? Nobody knows.

:20:23.:20:26.

Theoretically that would be a risk. There are some people who say we

:20:26.:20:31.

would be better off out of the EU, but it seems to be a big step to

:20:31.:20:35.

take or to risk just because we are reluctant to give a few votes to a

:20:35.:20:38.

few prisoners who probably would not vote anyway. Justice may be

:20:38.:20:42.

blind, ministers have to keep at least one eye on the politics of it

:20:42.:20:45.

all. Ultimately, who makes Britain's laws is about as

:20:45.:20:50.

political as it gets. Joining us from Oxford now is

:20:50.:20:52.

Michael Pinto-Dushinsky, who earlier this year resigned as one

:20:52.:20:54.

of the eight commissioners examining whether a British Bill of

:20:54.:21:04.
:21:04.:21:05.

Rights is needed. This afternoon, the Home Secretary will make a

:21:05.:21:09.

statement to Parliament which many suggest will be a showdown with the

:21:09.:21:11.

courts over this issue of the rights of foreign prisoners

:21:11.:21:15.

battling to avoid deportation. Is she right to take them on over

:21:15.:21:23.

this? I certainly don't favour politicians interfering with judges

:21:23.:21:28.

on cases that are going on. I would not talk about the Abu Qatada case

:21:28.:21:34.

because it is still going on, it is improper to interfere with judges.

:21:34.:21:41.

When we come to matters of general policy, which is in a sense making

:21:41.:21:45.

laws, then it is for Parliament to make laws and it is for judges to

:21:45.:21:51.

enforce those laws. If Parliament doesn't like it, Parliament can

:21:51.:21:55.

make new laws. That is what a democracy under rule of law means.

:21:55.:21:59.

Is this really, in your view, empty rhetoric saying that she is going

:21:59.:22:03.

to do battle and have a showdown, because as you say, without making

:22:03.:22:08.

a new law, she can't tell judges how they should interpret the

:22:08.:22:18.
:22:18.:22:19.

existing ones. She can introduce a new law. Maybe it is wise to do so.

:22:19.:22:24.

The interpretation of family life has been broadened far beyond the

:22:25.:22:33.

original intention. If she does introduce the new law, it is the

:22:33.:22:39.

judges obligation to obey the law unless the court in Strasbourg over

:22:39.:22:43.

rules the British judges and the British Parliament. But that would

:22:43.:22:47.

take several years and would not happen within this Parliament. In

:22:47.:22:53.

effect, she can making new law safely until 2015. Maybe that is

:22:53.:23:01.

what she intends to do. So without a new law, Theresa May is a bit

:23:01.:23:04.

restricted in terms of what she can tell judges to do, but she says she

:23:04.:23:09.

has the public on her side on this. And judges and courts do listen to

:23:09.:23:14.

public opinion so is this the right way to approach this campaign?

:23:15.:23:19.

Michael is a political scientist and he is not a lawyer. He is not

:23:19.:23:24.

in courts on a regular basis. There's a very interesting two step

:23:24.:23:28.

that takes place between the law and politics. Judges don't exist in

:23:28.:23:32.

a vacuum, they do listen to public debates and they are very conscious

:23:32.:23:38.

of public temperature. They know that at the moment, we have a

:23:38.:23:42.

government, and a government before, it is not just this particular

:23:42.:23:46.

coalition government, the coalition before also had its run-ins with

:23:46.:23:49.

some of the decisions by judges, but what happens is that judges

:23:49.:23:52.

listen, but they know there are basic principles they should not

:23:52.:23:56.

override. Have they over interpreted this particular law in

:23:56.:24:01.

terms of the right to a family life? The question there is most of

:24:01.:24:05.

us would agree, and it is set down in the principles of the European

:24:05.:24:08.

Convention, that people are entitled to a family life and that

:24:08.:24:11.

means that if you are given immigration status in this country

:24:11.:24:14.

and you are allowed to be in this country, you are entitled to have

:24:14.:24:20.

your wife and children with you. Where it comes into question is our

:24:20.:24:23.

interpretation in relation to homosexuality, are you entitled to

:24:24.:24:27.

have your homosexual partner? Are you entitled to have your

:24:27.:24:31.

grandmother? Some people would say if granny has to stay at home.

:24:31.:24:36.

There's an issue which has to be examined and it is usually dealt

:24:36.:24:40.

with case by case. Families differ. What would be right for one family

:24:40.:24:44.

is not always right for another. His Theresa May right to say you

:24:44.:24:48.

have overstepped your remit, the public isn't with you either and

:24:48.:24:52.

nor is the political establishment. Rain in your interpretation or we

:24:52.:24:57.

will do -- change the law. In the months to come, you will not find

:24:57.:25:03.

any cases that accountant... Judges will be sensitive to it and when

:25:03.:25:07.

they are making their individual interpretations they will have in

:25:07.:25:10.

mind that there's a general feeling that we should not be saying your

:25:10.:25:14.

second cousin is somebody who is part of your family. Do you agree

:25:14.:25:19.

with that? Do you have confidence that that is what will happen?

:25:19.:25:25.

should say that on legal matters, I have every confidence in Helen The.

:25:25.:25:29.

I have immense personal and professional respect for her and as

:25:29.:25:38.

she says, she knows the courts and I don't. I am a bit concerned about

:25:39.:25:44.

the view that judges should take account of public opinion in the

:25:44.:25:50.

sense of becoming semi- political themselves. It is their role to

:25:50.:25:55.

make judgments on the merits of the judgments. One wouldn't want judges

:25:55.:26:02.

to be too politicised. But in general, I do agree with Helena on

:26:02.:26:07.

that. Let's turn to the British Bill of Rights. We heard in that

:26:07.:26:10.

clip where you resigned as one of the eight commissioners examining

:26:10.:26:14.

where a British Bill of Rights was needed. You said the commission

:26:14.:26:18.

deliberately ignored the prime minister, is that still the case?

:26:18.:26:23.

And so Livy. Since I resigned, the only two oomph public hearings that

:26:23.:26:28.

have been read, and they were to have taken place by now, have been

:26:28.:26:31.

postponed until the autumn. We don't know if they will take place

:26:31.:26:37.

at all. The commission is the only employee one graduate student as

:26:37.:26:41.

far as I know to look into parliamentary sovereignty and

:26:41.:26:46.

indeed I think there's no guarantee that that graduate student will

:26:46.:26:53.

even be big eater -- be paid the minimum wage. There isn't any

:26:53.:27:00.

serious inquiry at all. The whole notion is to waste time and to

:27:00.:27:04.

block the government from doing anything by wasting its time. May I

:27:04.:27:09.

just say one other thing that Helena may want to answer? It has

:27:09.:27:15.

now come out that Nick Clegg spoke to one of the commissioners in

:27:15.:27:20.

person, Lord Lester, and had a joint telephone call with the other

:27:20.:27:24.

three commissioners, including Helena, two days before the first

:27:25.:27:29.

meeting of the commission. Clearly there was some kind of fix up in

:27:29.:27:34.

place before we even started. there a stitch-up with Nick Clegg

:27:34.:27:39.

phoning you and others on the commission beforehand? The only

:27:39.:27:43.

time I have had a conversation with Nick Clegg on the telephone was

:27:43.:27:50.

when he invited me to be a commissioner. Each of the coalition

:27:50.:27:54.

partners were able to choose four persons to sit on the commission

:27:54.:27:58.

and I was one of the people selected to be on the commission by

:27:58.:28:04.

the Lib Dem end, although I'm a Labour person. I think that is true

:28:04.:28:08.

of everybody, we all had a call from the people selecting us to be

:28:08.:28:13.

on the commission. There certainly was no stitch-up. It is interesting,

:28:13.:28:17.

I'm sure Labour leaders will find it hard to believe that I'm capable

:28:17.:28:22.

of being stitched into anything, if I were to choose not be. There is

:28:22.:28:29.

the other point, Michael has no faith that the commission will

:28:29.:28:32.

deliver an alternative, that this is a waste of time and they will

:28:32.:28:37.

not explore all the options. became very clear, and it is one of

:28:37.:28:43.

the reasons Michael is no longer on the commission,... Michael would

:28:43.:28:49.

like to see that this was not the remit of this commission. This

:28:49.:28:53.

commission's terms of reference were not to be saying we should be

:28:53.:28:56.

leaving the European Convention on Human Rights... Parliament has

:28:56.:29:01.

sovereignty. No. Parliamentary sovereignty is part of what we are

:29:01.:29:04.

looking at. When it comes to the report which will be published at

:29:04.:29:08.

the end of this year, it will be giving recommendations to

:29:08.:29:12.

government as to how they could take this forward and it will give

:29:12.:29:15.

recommendations in relation to should there be a British Bill of

:29:15.:29:19.

Rights, if so what form it would take, or should we stick with what

:29:19.:29:21.

we have an make amendments and find other ways of enriching this

:29:21.:29:28.

process? Thank you both very much. Towards the end of the year, we

:29:28.:29:31.

will have the recommendations and you will see if your fears are

:29:31.:29:41.
:29:41.:29:43.

You may remember we towed due of some research the University of

:29:43.:29:49.

Strathclyde was doing to study the mood of the nation. Participants

:29:49.:29:55.

were being tested that being exposed to a flagging image would

:29:55.:30:01.

affect their answers. This is what they found. Seeing a flag does

:30:01.:30:05.

affect how the respondent response to the state of the economy in

:30:05.:30:10.

England and Scotland. It made people feel more anxious. Exposure

:30:10.:30:15.

to the Union Jack increases estate of pride in being English. It was

:30:15.:30:21.

not the case for the Scottish flag. What does this mean? Joining us

:30:21.:30:27.

from Glasgow is a professor who has been conducting his research for

:30:27.:30:33.

Strathclyde University. What does it mean? We emphasise straight away

:30:33.:30:38.

but these are representative surveys. We have two samples from

:30:38.:30:43.

England and Scotland of people who responded to this particular quiz.

:30:43.:30:48.

Straight away we put the little caveat in, they are groups of

:30:48.:30:53.

English and Scottish respondents who are possibly particularly

:30:53.:30:58.

interested because they are watching your programme. What was

:30:58.:31:03.

interesting is the way different UK flag splayed out in different ways

:31:03.:31:07.

within the two difference sample groups. Critically, the story on

:31:07.:31:12.

the economy was interesting. And there has been a tendency to say

:31:12.:31:17.

there has been a split between national identity issues that tried

:31:17.:31:22.

public opinion, and economic, hard rational views that drive public

:31:22.:31:27.

opinion. What we think it shows is these two have closely combined,

:31:28.:31:32.

which is a commonsense thing, but not what people using their

:31:32.:31:36.

analysis. The fact you trigger their national identity seems to

:31:36.:31:41.

affect how they make rational decisions on whether they think the

:31:41.:31:45.

economy is doing well, whether it feels them feel confident or a bit

:31:45.:31:51.

uneasy. It is this point, respondents who saw a Scottish flag

:31:51.:31:56.

felt more anxious about the economy. Is that because of the current

:31:56.:32:01.

economic times that we are in now? What did he make of that? He is

:32:01.:32:09.

difficult to tell. We get this data and we have to interpret it wide it

:32:09.:32:14.

has to that effect and it is open to speculation. We had the number

:32:14.:32:18.

of people who came back and said it is difficult for them to

:32:18.:32:22.

disentangle the question of the Scottish of the English economy.

:32:22.:32:27.

They are feeling a bit, when they say you make them feel English on

:32:27.:32:31.

make them feel Scottish, they feel they don't have that much control

:32:31.:32:34.

over the economy in England and Scotland because is a part of the

:32:34.:32:44.

UK economy. Also, given the current debates on whether there should be

:32:44.:32:48.

more control over the economy in Scotland. The other side of it

:32:48.:32:53.

could be the opposite. It could be people are feeling anxious about if

:32:53.:32:57.

we were to go it alone, if there was some kind of control over the

:32:57.:33:03.

economy, would they feel more anxious? Helena Kennedy, on the

:33:03.:33:09.

headlines of that, would you, on the basis of those answers hazard a

:33:09.:33:14.

guess the question on Scottish independence would be on identity?

:33:14.:33:19.

I think it will be Economics that it will determine it. The Scots are

:33:19.:33:22.

very canny and they will want to know if they can survive on their

:33:22.:33:27.

own. When we hear Scottish Nationalist politicians saying, we

:33:27.:33:31.

could be absolutely successful without being linked to England, I

:33:31.:33:36.

think there is a lot of concern about whether it is true. I think

:33:36.:33:41.

they should be some hard, independent, economic analysis done

:33:41.:33:44.

with no British economists or Scottish ones, but a set of

:33:44.:33:49.

economists from abroad to look at it independently. Independently

:33:50.:33:55.

always been difficult. I was struck over the Jubilee period and the

:33:55.:34:01.

events, and the number of Union Jack flags, no negatives

:34:01.:34:06.

connotations associated with that? I was of the generation in the 70s

:34:06.:34:10.

when I was a young woman demonstrating, I was concerned

:34:10.:34:15.

about racism and it is the flag that was used by the National Front.

:34:15.:34:22.

It lived at me for a long time, being linked with racists. It has

:34:22.:34:26.

shed that very largely. People did not feel that at all, watching the

:34:26.:34:32.

sea of flags. Adam Shaw in Scotland or in Northern Ireland, seeing the

:34:32.:34:36.

Union Jack, it may create different ripples because there are people

:34:36.:34:42.

who still see it as a flag which is about imperialism and about somehow

:34:42.:34:46.

being conquered nations. I don't know, but I suspect it still lives

:34:46.:34:52.

on. A fan's for bringing us that research and Helena Kennedy, being

:34:52.:34:57.

a guest of the day for. MPs are now back in Westminster for

:34:57.:35:02.

the last session before the summer holidays. It is looking like a busy

:35:02.:35:06.

week for political hacks. We will hear more from Theresa May on

:35:06.:35:10.

immigration this afternoon's. She has already said she will get tough

:35:10.:35:15.

and judges who will refuse to deport foreign criminals because of

:35:15.:35:20.

their human rights. PMQs should be interesting. Expect

:35:20.:35:25.

the Prime Minister to be questioned on the recent U-turns. On Thursday

:35:25.:35:28.

the Prime Minister is in the spotlight giving evidence at

:35:28.:35:33.

Leveson Inquiry. An economy will be back on the agenda with George

:35:33.:35:40.

Osborne's mansions house speech at the Lord Mayor's dinner. Let's talk

:35:40.:35:44.

to George Parker from the Financial Times and Alison little from the

:35:44.:35:49.

Daily Express. George Parker, the Financial Times has written a lot

:35:49.:35:52.

about George Osborne blaming the eurozone for Britain's lack of

:35:52.:35:57.

growth. But a lot of the criticism comes from the Tory party, how

:35:57.:36:02.

dangerous is it for the Chancellor? It is the central political

:36:02.:36:06.

argument, who is to blame for Britain's poor economic

:36:07.:36:10.

performance? Labour have been St George Osborne cannot possibly

:36:10.:36:14.

blame it all on the eurozone. He should be doing more to stimulate

:36:14.:36:21.

the economy, cutting taxes. We have at least three senior Tory right-

:36:21.:36:25.

wingers St George Osborne shouldn't use the euro zone crisis as an

:36:25.:36:29.

alibi, and to be doing more in terms of cutting business taxation,

:36:29.:36:33.

cutting red tape to get business going. It is a difficult position

:36:33.:36:37.

for George Osborne to find himself to be in, being attacked from the

:36:37.:36:42.

left and the right as to who is to blame for this double-dip recession.

:36:42.:36:47.

Alison, how much more pressure it is there now for a referendum?

:36:47.:36:54.

is growing all the time. My paper would support that. We have become

:36:54.:36:59.

increasingly mainstream. George Osborne, he has been trying to

:36:59.:37:04.

signal in recent days he would support a referendum. He is trying

:37:04.:37:08.

to throw that in his own right wingers, but they are sceptical,

:37:08.:37:15.

they would want to see it written down in black and white. They

:37:15.:37:18.

wouldn't be satisfied with the hints because we have had hints

:37:18.:37:22.

over a referendum before and it has not happened. But pressure is

:37:22.:37:26.

definitely growing. Looking over the recess and the U-turn is that

:37:26.:37:31.

one made over various tax policies, do you think it will be

:37:31.:37:36.

regurgitated at PMQs this week? certain it will be. If I was Ed

:37:36.:37:42.

Miliband, it is something I would want to look at and what my

:37:42.:37:48.

colleagues said, Martin Brown dubbed the Budget. The series of U-

:37:48.:37:53.

turns that have taken place. Labour are using one of their debate days

:37:54.:37:58.

to call a debate about the VAT on caravans, which the Government has

:37:58.:38:05.

poof formed -- has not yet performed a four U turn on. I am

:38:05.:38:10.

certain Ed Miliband will go on the economy as well. The budgie U-turns

:38:10.:38:15.

were not particularly significant, but it is a question of competence

:38:15.:38:20.

and capability of the Treasury. But the Treasury cannot do the simple

:38:20.:38:23.

things right, that will be the next question going into the next

:38:23.:38:27.

election. Abington all there will be an urgent question on budget U-

:38:27.:38:35.

turns. -- I have been told. We have had, we have just been talking

:38:35.:38:39.

about the jubilee celebrations, the football is on, is there a feel-

:38:39.:38:44.

good factor this week? Feel-good factors can be over done in

:38:44.:38:49.

politics. We are still a couple of years off from the next general --

:38:49.:38:54.

General Election. The Olympics is giving a feel-good factor. But

:38:54.:39:00.

going back to the 1966 World Cup, there is a myth propagated that

:39:00.:39:09.

Harold Wilson won the election because of the 1966 World Cup

:39:09.:39:14.

victory, but he did actually win the election months before.

:39:14.:39:19.

what about the news David Cameron and his wife, Samantha, manage to

:39:19.:39:24.

leave it there a year old daughter in the pub after Sunday lunch?

:39:24.:39:28.

could not make it up. A lot of parents will be sympathetic to this

:39:28.:39:32.

because a lot have said, I have done this, and done even worse

:39:32.:39:39.

things. More serious questions however, they are coming up this

:39:39.:39:43.

morning with people saying if the Prime Minister's security personnel

:39:43.:39:48.

were with him, don't they do a head count to see who is there? And also

:39:48.:39:53.

some parents seem to be reporting they have done similar things in

:39:53.:39:58.

the past and got a visit from social services about it. What will

:39:58.:40:03.

happen to the Prime Minister? It is a mixed blessing, but it definitely

:40:03.:40:07.

plays into the sense at the moment, anything could Government such as

:40:07.:40:12.

falls apart. The narrative does not help, he cannot look after his own

:40:12.:40:17.

children, can he look after the country. Most of the criticism is

:40:17.:40:21.

he has been spending too much time thinking about his family and Tory

:40:22.:40:27.

MPs saying he puts the school run before the national interests. It

:40:27.:40:31.

is difficult to pin this on him that he neglects his children. It

:40:31.:40:35.

would have been more difficult for Ed Miliband, because he did not put

:40:35.:40:39.

his name on the birth certificates of one of his children. But pinning

:40:40.:40:42.

this on David Cameron that he neglects his children, would be a

:40:42.:40:47.

bit tricky. Now, this morning markets in Europe

:40:47.:40:51.

and Asia welcomed the bail-out of Spain's bangs that was agreed over

:40:51.:40:58.

the weekend. On Saturday, eurozone ministers agreed to lend Spain up

:40:58.:41:03.

to 100 billion euros. -- banks. We can now talk to Richard Hunt of.

:41:03.:41:10.

Reasonably positive, the market reaction? Yes it was. Equally, it

:41:10.:41:14.

is another chapter on what will be an ongoing saga in terms of

:41:14.:41:19.

resolving the ongoing crisis. Whilst the market open probably 100

:41:19.:41:23.

points up, a couple of minutes ago it had given away most of those

:41:23.:41:29.

gains. The realisation is beginning to dawn, this is something of a fix

:41:29.:41:34.

rather than a long-term solution. You say it is a fix, and it does

:41:34.:41:39.

sound like a lot of money and the IMF had identified around 40

:41:39.:41:44.

billion euros needed to help out Spain in trouble. Does this do more

:41:44.:41:48.

than put a sticking plaster over the banking, could the

:41:48.:41:52.

recapitalisation of the banking crisis separate it from the

:41:52.:41:56.

sovereign debt crisis? The way it looks like it is going to work, and

:41:56.:42:01.

this is the uncertainty, the money will pass to the banks through the

:42:01.:42:05.

Sovereign and the possibility there of course is the sovereign which is

:42:05.:42:09.

them effectively underlying this amount of money. It would put

:42:09.:42:13.

pressure on it, when it has to go back to the markets to borrow for

:42:13.:42:18.

its own purposes. There are other ramifications, for example - the

:42:18.:42:22.

fact this has gone through so quickly may call into question

:42:22.:42:26.

whether the likes of Portugal, Ireland and Greece now come back to

:42:26.:42:30.

the table to renegotiate their own debt which will put more pressure

:42:30.:42:35.

on the stability facility within the eurozone. It is not bad news

:42:35.:42:38.

and the market has reacted accordingly, but equally they

:42:38.:42:40.

remain a lot of unanswered questions.

:42:40.:42:45.

I have been joined for the rest of the programme by the Conservative

:42:45.:42:53.

MP, the Labour MP, Tony Perkins and the Liberal Democrat Mr Perkins. We

:42:53.:42:57.

have had this phrase from George Osborne the eurozone is killing of

:42:57.:43:02.

Britain's chances of any growth, paraphrasing it slightly, but that

:43:02.:43:07.

was the broad thrust of it. Is the Government impotent in terms of

:43:07.:43:10.

doing anything to promote growth? There is a lot the Government can

:43:10.:43:17.

do to promote growth. He said he cannot. We put 49% of our exports

:43:17.:43:22.

to the eurozone area. It is clear for everyone to see the eurozone is

:43:22.:43:26.

lurching from one crisis to another, and there isn't a clear solution in

:43:26.:43:31.

sight, that will be implemented. That will have an effect on his

:43:31.:43:36.

economic situation at home. What we have seen is the Chancellor and the

:43:36.:43:42.

Prime Minister saying and shouting loud, to Angela Merkel, you have

:43:42.:43:46.

got to sort this problem out now. Everybody accepts the Euros and

:43:46.:43:52.

crisis is having an effect, not only on Europe, but globally. --

:43:52.:43:56.

eurozone stock in the case of Switzerland, not even in the

:43:56.:44:00.

European Union, they do have rows, why can't Britain promote its own

:44:00.:44:06.

growth? But there is a lot been done to promote growth. But it has

:44:06.:44:11.

not happened, there is no growth. If you speak to international

:44:11.:44:16.

investors, people who have money and looking for places to put it.

:44:16.:44:21.

Britain is one of the top destinations. Whether it is Nissan,

:44:21.:44:25.

China Investment Corporation, but we need to do more to promote that

:44:25.:44:29.

activity. So there are opportunities. When do you see

:44:29.:44:34.

growth coming back? I cannot predict, but what we have got to do

:44:34.:44:38.

to promote growth is do the right things to raise business confidence.

:44:38.:44:43.

It is businesses and businesses investing that will drive the

:44:43.:44:49.

growth we need. The danger in this debate, the substance of raising

:44:49.:44:53.

business confidence is to focus on austerity and whether that is

:44:53.:44:56.

driving growth or not driving growth and that is the wrong path

:44:57.:45:02.

to go down. Is it all the eurozone's fault? It has to be

:45:02.:45:07.

partly their fault. When I talk to businesses, they say they have

:45:07.:45:11.

noticed a decline in their order books from eurozone countries. It

:45:11.:45:15.

will have an impact on their ability to invest in their own

:45:15.:45:19.

firms and drive the job-creation we want to see here. Do you believe

:45:19.:45:25.

the British Government's cannot do anything? It can only rely on

:45:25.:45:30.

monetary policy. It seems to be the general direction of travel, the

:45:30.:45:35.

historic low interest rates, we have still have no growth, we have

:45:35.:45:38.

had some quantitative easing but still no growth. Is it really just

:45:38.:45:47.

Of course not. There are many things the British government can

:45:47.:45:54.

do and is doing. It is important... Driving infrastructure projects,

:45:54.:45:59.

creating growth on the ground at home, creating jobs. Spending, you

:45:59.:46:05.

would like to see Morse capital spending? In one area. Housing. We

:46:05.:46:09.

know that every pound invested in housing generates �3, it generates

:46:09.:46:17.

about four jobs. It will also help tackle the housing crisis. Do you

:46:17.:46:20.

agree with Chris Huhne when he said a couple of years ago that Britain

:46:20.:46:26.

should not be lashed to the mast of austerity? No. It is not a choice.

:46:26.:46:31.

We have to bring the finances under control, we have one of the highest

:46:31.:46:36.

debt to GDP ratios of the G7. We need to take difficult decisions.

:46:36.:46:41.

We also need to do everything we can to get every infrastructure

:46:41.:46:45.

project, every piece of investment out of the door and spending the

:46:45.:46:48.

money the government is spending on those projects to develop jobs and

:46:48.:46:53.

create growth. I think the government is getting it broadly

:46:53.:46:57.

right. In terms of infrastructure spending, you would support that?

:46:57.:47:04.

Yes, it has been a part of Ed Balls's 5. Plan for a while and we

:47:04.:47:08.

continued to urge the government to do more. People this weekend will

:47:09.:47:13.

have been horrified by the sense of hopelessness we have with the

:47:13.:47:19.

Chancellor, who on the back of his shambolic budget, is now coming out

:47:19.:47:24.

and saying he has finally realised the global context that our

:47:24.:47:28.

economy... We were telling him about that during the global

:47:28.:47:32.

economic recession. What he is failing to do is get any growth

:47:32.:47:36.

into the economy, he inherited an economy that was growing and he is

:47:36.:47:40.

delivering stagnation. A sense of hopelessness? That is absolutely

:47:40.:47:45.

wrong. One of the things the Chancellor spoke about in autumn is

:47:45.:47:48.

moving forward infrastructure projects and getting private

:47:48.:47:53.

investors to invest in those. It is still in the works. There's no

:47:53.:47:58.

sense of hopelessness. If you step out of the Westminster bubble and

:47:58.:48:02.

you speak to people who have the money to invest, Britain is a safe

:48:02.:48:06.

haven. What we've got to do is give them the confidence to invest their

:48:06.:48:11.

money here. We would compromise that confidence if we go back on

:48:11.:48:14.

the central judgment that the government made at the start of

:48:14.:48:17.

this Parliament, that deficit- reduction, sensible deficit

:48:17.:48:22.

reduction should be at the heart of the policy. Christine Lagarde gave

:48:22.:48:27.

her prognosis recently of the British economy. Is there a time at

:48:27.:48:31.

which, if growth hasn't improved and we are still flatlining, say by

:48:31.:48:35.

the autumn, and we still have low interest rates, is there time that

:48:36.:48:39.

there should be a more dramatic change in terms of what the

:48:39.:48:43.

Chancellor is doing? What we can do more of, and you can always do more,

:48:44.:48:49.

is more around access to finance for businesses. It has been talked

:48:49.:48:55.

about, but it never happens. Credit easing, National Loan guarantee

:48:55.:48:59.

Scheme, is a step in the right direction. It will allow businesses

:49:00.:49:04.

to refresh existing loans, something I have called for his may

:49:04.:49:07.

be the Bank of England looking to buy corporate bonds so that

:49:07.:49:12.

businesses can get more cash for so they are more likely to hire and

:49:12.:49:17.

invest in that plant. Some of it is being done by the Treasury. What I

:49:17.:49:20.

will not be pushing for is to compromise the fundamental decision

:49:20.:49:24.

that was made at the start of the Parliament that we are going to

:49:24.:49:28.

make sure we can pay our debts in a sensible way while at the same time

:49:28.:49:32.

protecting the vulnerable. Stay with us. We will have some

:49:32.:49:36.

questions in a moment. See what kind of education you had at

:49:36.:49:46.
:49:46.:49:50.

Now, what's seven times nine? How do you say "my name is Jo" in

:49:50.:49:53.

French? And which poet wrote about wandering "lonely as a cloud"? If

:49:53.:49:56.

you know, then well done. If not, well, Mr Gove will see you after

:49:57.:49:59.

class. Because the Education Secretary thinks that children have

:49:59.:50:02.

been "let down on the basics" by the current curriculum - leaving

:50:02.:50:05.

the UK falling behind other nations. Is he right? Our teacher's pet,

:50:05.:50:08.

young Adam Fleming, has been to find out. I've got a list of

:50:08.:50:11.

complicated words, I'm sure I know the 12 times table off by heart and

:50:11.:50:13.

we have a bus station full of people. Let's put the curriculum to

:50:13.:50:23.
:50:23.:50:26.

the test. What is 12 times 11? 132. Close! In the Oster -- in

:50:26.:50:30.

Australia, do you learn the 12 times table? Yes. How important is

:50:30.:50:36.

it to learn things like that? not that important. 144. Everyone

:50:36.:50:40.

knows that one! Did you know you're 12 times table by the time you left

:50:40.:50:45.

school? No. In the States, do you have to learn your 12 times table?

:50:45.:50:55.
:50:55.:50:56.

Yes. No. I didn't! Do you know how to spell accommodate? A, C, C, oh

:50:56.:51:06.
:51:06.:51:14.

it... A, C, C, is a double M? missed out 1 M. Double M! Does

:51:14.:51:19.

anyone know any poetry? I know a few Australian ones but I will not

:51:19.:51:24.

recite them. Twinkle twinkle little star, I wonder what you are. Little

:51:24.:51:33.

Miss Muffet. Jack Horner. Jack and Jill. I could go on! You obviously

:51:33.:51:37.

know them very well. Good to see you.

:51:37.:51:43.

That is reassuring! Let's have a chat with our political bright

:51:43.:51:49.

sparks - Sam Gyimah, Toby Perkins, Stephen Gilbert. What is seven

:51:49.:51:55.

times nine? Six D three. Very good. Toby, how do you say my name is

:51:55.:52:02.

Tavy in French? Vision of hell Tavey. Who wrote I wandered lonely

:52:02.:52:09.

as a cloak? I haven't the foggiest. Wordsworth. Two points to you.

:52:09.:52:17.

You'll have to see Mr Gove after class. Report for detention. Maybe

:52:17.:52:21.

something you know about! Is this yet another change that teachers

:52:21.:52:25.

are going to resent and schools are going to resent because the biggest

:52:25.:52:32.

complaint they have his constant change. Constant change is ideally

:52:32.:52:38.

something you want to stay away from. If you are a responsible

:52:38.:52:42.

politician, when confronted with the fact that a lot of employer

:52:42.:52:46.

organisations are saying children do not have the basic mental

:52:46.:52:49.

arithmetic, spelling skills that they need when they get into the

:52:49.:52:56.

workforce, you need to do something. Labour said education, education,

:52:56.:53:00.

education. Men and people say they expect their children to know these

:53:00.:53:06.

basic things by the age of 11. Where did it fall down? There was

:53:06.:53:09.

masses of progress made under the previous Labour government in

:53:09.:53:17.

education. We now see 89% of schools having 30% of children

:53:17.:53:20.

leaving with five good GCSEs. Only half of that achieved that at the

:53:20.:53:25.

time we came into power. At the same time... It is still not very

:53:25.:53:31.

high. We moved the state education for would be a tremendous amount,

:53:31.:53:36.

but there's more to do. The move of the government towards introducing

:53:36.:53:42.

languages earlier is a positive one. At the same time, we are hearing

:53:42.:53:45.

from Michael Gove that he is listening to business, but

:53:45.:53:50.

businesses are saying that the engineering diploma or, the JCB

:53:50.:53:54.

Academy, is really valuable and he is downgrading that. The wary

:53:54.:53:59.

people have about Michael Gove is he going to listen to the

:53:59.:54:03.

educationalists or is it based on the idea -- ideology and the ideas

:54:03.:54:09.

he heard from his friends down the golf club. There's no ideology

:54:09.:54:13.

behind making sure that people can spell properly, can do their mental

:54:13.:54:18.

arithmetic. That is just educational standards. Absolutely.

:54:18.:54:22.

When you said that at the end of the Labour peerage in office, only

:54:22.:54:26.

one in three people were leaving with half of the qualifications we

:54:26.:54:30.

expect people to get. We need to make sure people who know best how

:54:30.:54:34.

to teach, the teachers, are free to do that in a way that response...

:54:34.:54:39.

Are they free? What you are seeing is a lot of educationalists saying

:54:39.:54:43.

this is the right way forward, it Free's head teachers and schools to

:54:43.:54:48.

respond to the situations they may face. When it is combined with the

:54:48.:54:53.

pupil premium, it stands much more likely heard of delivering real

:54:53.:54:56.

results. It sounds very prescriptive, all of this stuff

:54:56.:55:01.

that has been laid out. Labour did the same thing with its league

:55:01.:55:06.

tables and changing curriculums. This is a greater simplification

:55:06.:55:10.

but Mr under Labour. It was like a Christmas tree under Labour. They

:55:10.:55:14.

Hom more and more on the Christmas tree. What Michael Gove and the

:55:14.:55:19.

coalition are trying to do is free schools, freak educationalists, to

:55:19.:55:25.

report -- respond to the circumstances they face. The key

:55:25.:55:30.

test is does it put pupil's first? No doubt, when there's any change,

:55:30.:55:37.

teachers would say we don't really like this. But the key test is, is

:55:37.:55:41.

it raising educational standards and is putting pupils first? This

:55:41.:55:44.

is an important thing that needs to be tackled. What is going to

:55:44.:55:50.

change? If the figures that Toby used, if pupils were not reaching

:55:50.:55:55.

those basic standards by the age of 11, with the money that was put in

:55:55.:55:59.

under Labour, and with curriculum changes, what is going to make this

:55:59.:56:04.

any different? Are you expecting to see 60% of pupils knowing their 12

:56:04.:56:09.

times table and being able to read a reasonably hard book or not?

:56:09.:56:13.

of the things I like about what Michael Gove is doing is the

:56:13.:56:16.

recognition that raising academic standards in schools is not simply

:56:16.:56:21.

a function of how much money do is poured into the system, but is

:56:21.:56:31.

knowing what the priorities are. But the requirement to pass a

:56:31.:56:36.

language by the time you do your GCSEs is something that Labour did

:56:36.:56:39.

not put emphasis on and I'm glad we will have an emphasis on something

:56:39.:56:43.

like that. If we are going to be competitive in the global economy,

:56:43.:56:50.

it is important that our children leave school being competent in

:56:50.:56:54.

another language. Isn't there an argument that says our education

:56:54.:56:58.

system will still be behind what is needed in the workplace by the time

:56:58.:57:02.

the current primary-school children leave university or school and get

:57:02.:57:10.

a job? The first thing I would correct you on... We said 89% of

:57:10.:57:15.

schools had 30% of children leaving at a basic level, a lot of them had

:57:15.:57:18.

many more than 30%. A basic benchmark was put in place and

:57:18.:57:22.

there was a dramatic improvement against a benchmark. And in terms

:57:22.:57:28.

of the difference the government can make, what you learn from the

:57:28.:57:31.

best education systems is it is all about the way that children learn

:57:31.:57:36.

and we need less of a focus on the simple pieces of history. It does

:57:36.:57:39.

sound much more prescriptive than what it was previously. They need

:57:39.:57:45.

to know these facts. What we need is to help children to get a love

:57:45.:57:49.

of learning and on the back of that, you can hang all sorts of other

:57:49.:57:52.

things, as they do in Singapore and Hong Kong and the best education

:57:52.:57:57.

systems. Do you think poetry is important? It is, but it is not for

:57:57.:58:00.

Michael Gove to say you need to learn this poem of that poem.

:58:00.:58:06.

Children need a rate -- rounded education. You're in favour of more

:58:06.:58:09.

state interference? Find in favour of making sure that schools are

:58:09.:58:13.

free to make the difference circumstances that pupils find

:58:13.:58:17.

themselves in. There's a difference between the children going to

:58:17.:58:21.

school in my constituency and Toby's or Sam's. Why is it

:58:21.:58:26.

different? You have agreed it does about improving standards. Because

:58:26.:58:30.

of the community, the background, the levels of advantage and other

:58:30.:58:35.

aspects that individual communities face. The important point is that

:58:35.:58:39.

we deliver money to help disadvantaged children and Wheeler

:58:39.:58:42.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS