12/07/2012 Daily Politics


12/07/2012

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn are joined by Conservative MP David Davis. We discuss the Olympic preparations and how well David Cameron is managing his party.


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Transcript


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Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. 3,500 troops are

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being drafted in to help the security for the London Olympics.

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It last-minute measure after the G4s failed to recruit enough staff.

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The Home Secretary offers 10,000 Olympic tickets to the soldiers'

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families. We have the late egs.

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How have David Cameron's relations with his backbenchers turned ugly?

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After the biggest rebellion on Lord's reform, we hear from the man

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David Cameron beat to become the Lord of the party. And Britain's

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canal waterways, a charitable Trust. ? And we hear from the electoral

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commission about electing today. So, all of that is coming up.

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With us, senior Conservative backbencher and trouble maker,

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David Davis. He has no chance of getting into the House of Lords.

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Welcome back to the Daily Politics. Some things don't change.

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Let's kick off with the news that William Hague has ordered EU powers

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and how they impact on the life in the United Kingdom. The Foreign

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Secretary is due to make a statement to the House of Commons

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in half an hour. Well, like so many European things

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this could deliver rather more than is expected. If it is a real audit

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it will show all sorts of handicaps and prob Lord Mayors coming from

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Europe. He thoughs that, surely? I asked

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for, this and the place went into meltdown. Saying that I can't do it

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Saying that it will be leaked. This will be leaking for weeks.

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Will it bring on side some of the Tory backbenchers who have been

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calling for repatriation of powers and a referendum at some stage once

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renegotiation has taken place? I presume, if they are doing a

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comprehensive audit, it is a stepping stone to seeing what is

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not working? I think that is right. Two things will come out of it. One

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is the people that want out, that situation will be energised by it,

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but it could also give them a useful negotiation template if you

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like. That this is the sort of thing they want fixed. It could be

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a rational thing, but more likely it will raise the temperatures.

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2014 is the time it will be computed, a year before the general

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election, how do you think that the Liberal Democrats... It has their

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agreement? I assume that we have their agreement, but it could be

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before or after the elections. It does not say specifically wen in

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2014, the timing could be important. Think of the combination of a bad

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performance in the Euro elections and this together.

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What are you hoping for? Nothing. I am hoping for a rational outcome.

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Is the Foreign Office to be amended? Would you trust the

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Foreign Office? Has not William Hague gone native.

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You can stop with that. The Foreign Office is in charge of

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EU things? It would have to be Whitehall-wide. There are all sorts

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of things, trade policy, you have all of the various employment laws,

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everyone will have to have their finger in it.

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You know there is a tourist walking down Whitehall, he asked a police

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officer, what side is the Foreign Office on? The police officer said

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it was a very good question. Now, it is time for our daily quiz,

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which today is all about UFOs. Yes, the MoD has released the latest

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batch of documents about UFO sightings. The files show that the

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MoD launched an investigation in the 1990s, into whether

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unidentified phenomena were not of this earth, and if so, what their

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purpose was. So, what was the purpose of the UFO visits? Was it:

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Military reconassiance, scientific exploration, or tourism? David is

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going to help us give the answer. The truth is out there.

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I think they were queuing for Olympic tickets.

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So, two weeks to go until the greatest show on earth gets under

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way in London. Yes, the 2012 Olympics is set to go and the man

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in charge, sew Sebastian Coe, is urging us to get behind the games.

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I'm going to New York. The stadiums are built. Tens of thousands of new

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Olympic tickets are arriving on door mats, especially if you are an

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MP and Britain's athletes are limbering up for the events, but we

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Brits are never far from have a whinge about something. The

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Olympics is no exception. So, what do we have to moon about now? There

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is a fair amount of complaining about the Games, mostly over the

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security issues. 3,500 troops are on standby as the contractor, G4s

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may not be able to provide the guards it had guaranteed. Despite

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being paid �300 million. The Chief Inspector of Borders warned that

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border officers are Manning immigration desks at Heathrow

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Airport. This on top of complaints this week from the select committee

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chairman, Keith Vaz, who said queuing was so bad people were left

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stacked in corridors. Computers, sorry, commuters are not happy as

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junctions two and three of the M4, the main motorway link to the

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airport will not reopen as planned and Transport for London are

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working on contingis if not re- opened before the Olympics. In East

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London, the residents lost a high court challenge not to have

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missiles put on the roof of their toor blocks and the Olympic

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organisers have banned retailers on site other than McDonald's, from

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selling chips, unless served with fish. Four MPs are not complaining,

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members of the select committee, including John Whittingdale who

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accepted tickets for the men's 100m final. Theresa May has been

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answering questions in the House of Commons on the Olympic security.

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This is what she had to say. Concerns have ariz been the ability

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of G4s to deliver the required number of guards for the Olympic

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venues and in the time skails available. The Defence Secretary

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and I along are other ministers have been monitoringing the

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situation and security contracts over many months. In consultation

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with LOCOG and G4s we have agreed it would be prudent to deploy

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additional military support. I have therefore requested additional MoD

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support and the Defence Secretary authorised the deployment of a

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further 3,500 military personnel. That brings the total number of

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military personnel, supporting the safety and the security of the

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Games in a variety of roles to 17,000, including the military

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deployed on wider functions of venue security.

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Theresa May answering urgent questions in the Commons on Olympic

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security. Now we are joined by former secure

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minister, Lord West and by the Conservative MP Mr Nurser.

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We asked to speak to a Home Office Minister, but none was available.

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So, Lord West you can't get into the country as Heathrow Airport is

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blocked. You can't get into London as the M4 is closed and if you

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manage another way in, the security companies fail to provide security

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guards, who more can go wrong? latest thing with G4s was a

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surprise and a worry. I think we have to look at this

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carefully, G4s are used widely. Think think that they can do things

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and provide it, but they have not done it they should have let us

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know before. This is too close to the Games.

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The last time I looked, two things, it is not a surprise that the

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Olympics are opening at the end of this month, we have known for a

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while, years and years! And there are 2.5 million people unemployed

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in this country? Why could they not get the guards on time? Alarm bells

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should have gone off earlier, about two years ago it was clear that the

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number of people required for the Olympic security would have been

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bigger than predicted and G4s were having difficulty in vetting the

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people, ensuring that they had clearances, getting them recruited

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and ensuring that they were available for use. That is why we

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agreed that 13,500 military... it was originally to be that?

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was suppose ed -- supposed to be a blue Games, but then it became

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clear that would not be the case. At that stage I believe the

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Government should have been over this company like a rash, saying if

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they cannot deliver here, that we need to be certain that they can,

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and they should have been drilling down and making sure, clearly, the

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company kept saying they can, they can, now here at the last moment

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they cannot. To suddenly find 3,500 extra, 17,000, Theresa May,

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mentioned, there are also,000 contingency, that is 19,000 army,

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Navy military personnel. If they are watching in Buenos

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Aires, now would be a good time?! Maybe we should have just brought

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them in from the start? Well, in the all-party... I published this

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yesterday it is an all-party parliamentary group on Olympic

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security. I discusseded it with Lord West and David Davis. We

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published this yesterday, but we were looking for some time...

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you see this coming? We identified a problem with G4s. In fairness to

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the Government they have therefore started the military contingency

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planning, but the bitter irony of this is that only last week waerp

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hearing that the very soldiers and my -- last week we were hearing

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that the very soldiers and my own regiment, with P45s in tear pocket,

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have to -- in their pocket, have to come from post Afghanistan tour

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leave and now are to carry out Olympic security around the Olympic

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tennis, then they will be fired. A great way to treat people who

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have risked their lives for this country? All I say is thank God we

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have an army, Navy and air force that can react to Government plans

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that can react on short notice. That is the key point. I'm on

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record as saying that we have cut the forces too far. These people

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are brilliant in training. They can turn their hand to anything,

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whether it is foot and mouth, flooding, fires, Olympics, we need

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to think carefully before we start cutting this down in stature. There

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we are, we able able to get 20,000. Thank goodness.

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I was going to ask a question, which is, I remember being briefed

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on the Special Forces element of this five years ago. It is, is two

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weeks long nuch to get them trained and planned into the system?

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problem is, David, we are clearly deploying a brigade. That is what

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this is. If you sent every Gurkha in the army and sent him, it would

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not be enough to fulfil the commitment. It is expensive. The

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ministers have delayed until the last safe moment before pressing

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the moment on a plan that is going to cost a great deal of money.

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7,500 were to be planned in checking cars, looking in handbags,

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now that is increasing to 11,000. That is a juch.

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I if were an army veteran, to have risked my life in Helmand province

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and come back here and then told to search handbags in the Olympics, I

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is the point. You can say to these guys, scrap your leave, you are not

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going on holiday, scrap all the plans. They will do it, and do it

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with a smile. People are seeing how brilliant these men and women are.

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Jo? Can we talk to Katie Rowlett? We have been talking in the

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pseudoabout the 3,500 additional military personnel to be deployed.

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What has been revealed is that G4s, in terms of recruitment policy,

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were given the contract in March, but did not open the recruitment

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office until January of this year. They did not leave enough time, did

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they? No. We have heard from a copyle of people employed by G4s.

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They applied last year and did not hear from the company until April,

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I think. So they are doing handbag security on the gates of the

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Olympic Park. There does seem to be some sort of issue arising about

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the administrative side of G4s. Looking now, the backdrop is

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amazing, the weather is great. For today, but what is in practical

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terms, the feeling around the Olympic Park weeks before the

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I have been here this morning, but did not have entrance to the park.

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It has been a hive of security. Army personnel manning the entrance

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gates, as well as security people. There does seem a large-scale

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security operation going on here. It is a shame for 3,500 extra are

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needed. For point is this, whilst we were writing the report, it

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became clear at the were plenty of people who wanted to do it. Some

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have already been trained and vetted. But the money offered was

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not good and that there was the recruitment process. If it had not

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started until January this year, it wasn't enough time. Are they going

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to be any penalties? All in the usual British way, nobody is to

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blame? Katie, will there be any penalty against G4S for failing to

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fulfil the contract? I think there has been some rumours that there

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may be a penalty, yes. The MoD had said they will be reimbursing any

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military personnel who have been put out, who have booked holidays

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and now have to cancel them and they will get they leave

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entitlement. As far as the military that are involved, they should get

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their leave back. These are MoD costs. And there has been an

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agreement already. The MoD are paying for Olympic security. The

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MoD, as we know, have got no money. It is outrageous. Are we going to

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get soldiers getting overtime? I do not think so. They will have none

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of their overseas allowances. will they stay in London? There is

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accommodation for 3,500 which was built by G4S, but it is not very

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good. The army will be used to not a very good. Any of you watch the

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sitcom called 2020? I love it. is so much worse than that. Katie,

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thanks very much. David Cameron hasn't exactly had a

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trouble-free time of late. Most of the heavy flak seems to have come

:17:21.:17:28.

from his own side. Backbenchers are in a rebellious mood. That was just

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the latest in a long line of issues where Tory MPs have got moody and

:17:34.:17:40.

not always over policy. David Thomson found out if morale could

:17:40.:17:50.
:17:50.:17:55.

Legend has it, or Winston Churchill once advised a young Tory MP who

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referred to the Labour benches as the enemy. No, that is the

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opposition party. The enemy is sat around his. David Cameron must know

:18:05.:18:10.

exactly what the great man meant. Lords reform, EU referendum? You

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get the drift. It is not only policy, according to one of his

:18:15.:18:17.

most senior backbenchers, Conservative MPs are not feeling

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the love. They are two asides to senior management. One is to set

:18:25.:18:29.

objectives and motivate people to achieve them. But the second is to

:18:29.:18:33.

notice when people are falling by the wayside. Put your arm around

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them, show some sympathy and ask how you can help. That is one of

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the management skills David Cameron does not have. Another wise man

:18:44.:18:48.

once said, it is better to be feared than loved. David Cameron

:18:48.:18:54.

does have his teddies, the whips, to you and me, to lean on

:18:54.:18:59.

backbenchers. -- his head lease. What is that about? People who

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wanted to be promoted can still work to an extent. But MPs have

:19:05.:19:10.

been champions in their local area, they are much more interested in

:19:10.:19:13.

what their constituents might think that what the whips office might

:19:13.:19:20.

think. What if anything, can David Cameron do to stop his backbenchers

:19:20.:19:25.

giving him a kicking? He needs to bring on some of the new people,

:19:25.:19:30.

even though it will be very difficult because there are older

:19:30.:19:35.

people waiting their turn. He needs to get them in and get them

:19:35.:19:40.

involved pretty quickly. He needs to use their talents and get them

:19:40.:19:44.

to help him along the road. even that suggestion is not without

:19:44.:19:50.

dangers. This whole business of quotas, I know it is not called

:19:50.:19:55.

quota, but it is. Wanting more people of a particular gender, or

:19:55.:20:02.

particular background in his front line team, seems to me to be wrong.

:20:02.:20:08.

He put the best people in the best jobs and that is another lacking of

:20:08.:20:12.

management skills. Many people feel no matter what they do, their

:20:12.:20:17.

chance will never come. That is causing concern. Some think that

:20:17.:20:23.

what David Cameron needs is a few more people a bit less like him.

:20:23.:20:27.

want David tamarind to create a tent where everybody is involved in

:20:27.:20:35.

the project. But people are being left behind. -- David Cameron.

:20:35.:20:40.

There is a feeling people being left behind are not quite from his

:20:40.:20:43.

background. Come in under not so friendly fire from the backbenches

:20:43.:20:50.

is not unique to this PM - just ask Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, John

:20:50.:20:55.

Major and even Winston Churchill. But to David Cameron, sometimes it

:20:55.:21:01.

feels like it is personal. David Davis, is David Cameron's

:21:01.:21:07.

problems are rooted in his problems -- policies or structure? Structure

:21:07.:21:11.

is the way policies are right that. A lot of the backbenchers on the

:21:11.:21:17.

conservative side feel the Liberals, who are one 6th of the Government

:21:17.:21:26.

have almost half of the sake. -- says. Part of it is organisation.

:21:26.:21:30.

I'm afraid the Government has not done enough to make their own

:21:30.:21:34.

backbenchers feel involved and engaged in policy. This issue on

:21:34.:21:38.

the Lords shouldn't been a surprise. The opponents to the Lords reform

:21:38.:21:43.

have been coming for a long-time, there are 110 of them, how could

:21:43.:21:48.

you not notice? It is not one single thing. Some of it is not

:21:48.:21:52.

unique, John Major had bigger troubles. Even Margaret Thatcher

:21:52.:21:57.

had trouble from time to time. spoke to someone from the US state

:21:57.:22:02.

department whose job it is keeping an eye on British policy. They have

:22:02.:22:06.

been over visiting and they said to me, they were amazed how little

:22:06.:22:10.

support or warmth that there was for David Cameron on the Tory back

:22:10.:22:19.

benches? He wouldn't be the first person to say it. To be fair to him,

:22:19.:22:26.

he has a difficult knife-edge to walk on, to do we the Liberals and

:22:26.:22:32.

his own side. But I am surprised at how little care has been put in to

:22:32.:22:38.

managing his own party. He cannot give out ministerial posts because

:22:38.:22:44.

over 20 have gone. The house he dealt with the Lib Dems better than

:22:44.:22:48.

he has dealt with his own backbenches? I suspect that is what

:22:48.:22:52.

the feeling is in the Tory backbenches. When the coalition was

:22:52.:22:59.

first signed up, the Liberals had a vote on it. It was not put to the

:22:59.:23:05.

Tory backbenchers. But they had several votes on it. So, there is a

:23:05.:23:10.

feeling to some extent it is more their property than ours. Or so,

:23:10.:23:16.

they talk about the coalition agreement as if it has some

:23:16.:23:21.

constitutional gravitas. It is just a deal between the parties. It does

:23:21.:23:25.

not have the standing of a manifesto. And manifesto was

:23:25.:23:30.

approved by the people. A coalition agreement is have proved by hook,

:23:30.:23:35.

exactly? When you are dealing with the Lords, you cannot claim the

:23:35.:23:41.

same rights as a leader, as you could as if it was explicitly laid

:23:41.:23:45.

out in a manifesto. Are Tory backbenchers right to think if

:23:45.:23:49.

you're not from the right set, you won't get into the David Cameron

:23:50.:23:55.

Government? We will only know that question after the reshuffle. In

:23:55.:24:00.

your package, there were people hinting at that. Paul Goodman was

:24:00.:24:06.

hinting at it, Brian Binley was hinting. People being left behind,

:24:06.:24:11.

are people not quite from his background. That is a remarkable

:24:11.:24:15.

thing for a Tory MP to say of the Tory Prime Minister in the 21st

:24:15.:24:20.

century? That is what I am saying, it will show. The first time around

:24:20.:24:25.

he had to do the reshuffle, not the reshuffle, created Government on

:24:25.:24:30.

terms he was not expecting, as part of the coalition. This time he has

:24:30.:24:35.

had time to think about it. We will see what the outcome is. I would

:24:35.:24:39.

actually put up a reshuffle for a long time. The moment he does it,

:24:40.:24:45.

lots of people will say, we told you so. Or they will feel left out

:24:45.:24:49.

and for what other reason they will be irritated. What Brian Binley was

:24:49.:24:54.

talking about of course, you have got to be a woman or a minority

:24:54.:24:58.

group in order to get promoted. I don't think that is as strong as it

:24:58.:25:02.

is claimed, but we will see. regional coalition agreement you

:25:02.:25:07.

have been talking about has kind of run its course. They have either

:25:07.:25:12.

done what they agreed to do, or they are unable to agree to do.

:25:12.:25:18.

They used to be talk of there would be a 2.0 coalition agreement, the

:25:18.:25:23.

next stage. Am I right in thinking it has gone? There is nothing much

:25:23.:25:31.

they can agree on? It looks like it has gone. On Wednesday, it was

:25:31.:25:41.
:25:41.:25:45.

asked and was pushed back. The person who asked the question is a

:25:45.:25:50.

capable young businessman, and the sort of things you would expect to

:25:50.:25:55.

be in the Government. Are their feelings among story MPs, on the

:25:55.:25:59.

basis of that question, if there isn't much you can agree on, will

:25:59.:26:03.

we get there sooner or later? of them will think that is what the

:26:03.:26:10.

last year looks like. I don't believe that. The Liberals have the

:26:10.:26:15.

best seats on the aeroplane but no parachutes. They cannot get out.

:26:15.:26:19.

They could agree to go to a minority Government and leave the

:26:19.:26:25.

Tories in Government but not go to an election? What happens for

:26:25.:26:31.

example to the fiscal rebalancing programme? The major parts of the

:26:31.:26:35.

cuts come in the second half. What other things hitting the Liberals?

:26:35.:26:40.

Cutting back on spending, tuition fees was driven by that. All those

:26:40.:26:44.

sorts of things will be political poison to the Liberals. If they

:26:44.:26:47.

will be pulling back out of the Government and giving up the

:26:47.:26:53.

benefits of governments, they won't be delivering the prize. Let's go

:26:53.:26:59.

on to the Lords reform, David Cameron floating the idea may be we

:26:59.:27:05.

could get rid of the 1992 hereditaries and elect another 92

:27:05.:27:10.

people in their place as a first stage. Any kind of that ducking and

:27:10.:27:16.

diving compromise it going to work? I doubt it. They will take three to

:27:16.:27:19.

six months over this and try and pick of people and ask what weeks

:27:19.:27:26.

they would like. There are 110. 110 rabbles. But there are probably

:27:26.:27:30.

more now. Now he has effectively said he is only going to have one

:27:30.:27:36.

more go, others may join up. You have to get that to under 74 him

:27:36.:27:43.

having a chance of winning. They are over 800 people in the Lords

:27:43.:27:49.

anyway. David Steel put down a motion which we could pass tomorrow.

:27:49.:27:55.

Which was? Retirement, criminals getting thrown out and all this

:27:55.:28:00.

sort of thing. We could be down to 200 by the end of the year.

:28:00.:28:07.

will have to get a Lord on to do about that. Are you enjoying your

:28:07.:28:12.

rebellious years? You have come late to them. I am enjoying my

:28:12.:28:18.

freedom. It is seen by some as an attempt to

:28:18.:28:22.

refloat David Cameron's Big Society idea. England and Wales 2000 miles

:28:22.:28:27.

of canals and rivers were handed over to the Canal and River Trust,

:28:27.:28:32.

a shiny new charity. Ministers say it is a milestone. But can it keep

:28:32.:28:40.

its head above water? We have generations of history in

:28:41.:28:46.

our canals. Initially set up and created to refill the Industrial

:28:46.:28:51.

Revolution and transport goods around. Now it is a leisure pursuit.

:28:51.:28:55.

Millions of people use the canals in England and Wales every year.

:28:55.:29:00.

Scotland will stay under public ownership. What is happening with

:29:00.:29:06.

this, ownership and responsibility for the waterways transfers to a

:29:06.:29:10.

specially formed canals and rivers Trust, away from which was British

:29:11.:29:15.

Waterways. It will mean it has a secured income from the Government

:29:16.:29:20.

that for the next 15 years, �800 million has been handed over by the

:29:20.:29:25.

Government. It will cover the overheads. The rest of things, the

:29:25.:29:30.

charity status, recruiting volunteers, any money it can make

:29:30.:29:33.

from its commercial exploits on the water, that will give the trust the

:29:33.:29:38.

rest of the money it needs to run the canals. It is not just the wet

:29:38.:29:43.

bits, but a historic buildings like this. It takes it almost into the

:29:43.:29:47.

League of the National Trust, but on a smaller scale. He will become

:29:47.:29:51.

the third largest owner of historic buildings in the UK after the

:29:51.:29:53.

Church of England and the National Trust.

:29:53.:29:56.

What has been the political motivation?

:29:56.:30:02.

It is an example of the Big Society. What was formerly British Waterways,

:30:02.:30:06.

an agency of the Government must have thought we cannot secure our

:30:06.:30:09.

income for years to come. It was their decision, almost like a

:30:09.:30:13.

management buyout to go to the Government and say, what if we took

:30:13.:30:17.

control of everything, ran things ourselves? With the guaranteed

:30:17.:30:21.

income for the next 15 years, in England and Wales, we are only

:30:21.:30:27.

talking about England and Wales, but the guaranteed income with

:30:27.:30:31.

their maintenance costs, so much history here, expensive and

:30:31.:30:35.

difficult to maintain, is covered. They then can decide how they want

:30:36.:30:38.

to grow the business and Grove Charity in the future. It brings

:30:38.:30:43.

their destiny under their own controls. What they're doing is

:30:43.:30:47.

launching an appeal for thousands of volunteers across England and

:30:47.:30:51.

Wales to take part in 50 projects to rejuvenate, especially the

:30:51.:30:55.

towpath. So many people come here for leisure, we have seen boats,

:30:55.:30:59.

people jogging and walking dogs. The idea is to get some of those

:30:59.:31:04.

people to put their money where their mouth is and help out, to be

:31:04.:31:13.

part of the Big Society plans for Well you are bound to encourage

:31:13.:31:17.

more volunteers on a day like this. The perfect occasion to be messing

:31:17.:31:22.

about on boats. Thank you very much. We are joined by the Environment

:31:22.:31:26.

Minister Richard Benyon and by the poet, Ian McMillan who support the

:31:26.:31:30.

change. Welcome to you both. Is this a success story for the Big

:31:30.:31:35.

Society? It is massive. There is nothing new about the Big Society.

:31:35.:31:39.

What the Government is doing is making it easier for people to

:31:39.:31:44.

volunteer, to get involved and handing over this massive asset.

:31:44.:31:49.

Which troughis have down the years salivated over. �14 million of

:31:49.:31:54.

assets. This is now handed back to the people who know, use and love

:31:54.:31:58.

the waterways, it is a great moment. And a great idea, but what about

:31:58.:32:03.

the streams of money, literally, where will it come from when the

:32:03.:32:08.

Government money dries up? We have had tough negotiations from the

:32:08.:32:11.

charity trustees. The words used at the end was tough by fair. The

:32:11.:32:16.

Government is putting in a lot of money. How much? �39 million as a

:32:16.:32:21.

basic core funding amount. We are dealing with the pensions

:32:21.:32:26.

entitlements and many or aspects of the funding have been sport sorted.

:32:26.:32:31.

For the long-term as well. Is a years? That is a long time.

:32:31.:32:38.

It is not that long? It is in terms of Government spending and

:32:38.:32:43.

commitments. This is 2,000 miles of canals. A very exciting moment when

:32:43.:32:47.

we are handed something that the public should own, back to them.

:32:47.:32:53.

Are you excited, Ian McMillan? this is collectivism and

:32:53.:32:58.

interconnectedness. This was the first kind of information

:32:58.:33:01.

superhighway. Somehow this reminds us of the great industry that built

:33:01.:33:07.

it. If we can move it along it will be a great thing it reminds us that

:33:07.:33:11.

correctivism is a great thing. But will the people put hands to

:33:11.:33:17.

the pumps? There is a lot of canal enthuse yafpl. The next bit is the

:33:17.:33:21.

ones in stilettos and brogues who should be convinced to put their

:33:21.:33:24.

wellies on. Well, maybe, anything gimmick to

:33:24.:33:28.

get people down to help. Looking at the canals, there, they look

:33:28.:33:33.

wonderful, peaceful, a different pace of life, but in terms of the

:33:33.:33:39.

volume of people actively engaged, does it involve that many people?

:33:39.:33:44.

Probably not, but if you see it on days like this, how it connects

:33:44.:33:48.

people. Somehow a canal is like a labour rather. A library of water.

:33:49.:33:54.

So if we get people excited, it is getting people excited about

:33:54.:33:57.

picking rubbish on the streets is the hard thing.

:33:57.:34:01.

Have you been on a canal holiday? Many times.

:34:01.:34:05.

I think that people are more likely to volunteer for an organisation, a

:34:05.:34:09.

charity that they feel a sense of ownership rather than a Government

:34:09.:34:14.

body. In my part of the world, there is a core, in my part of the

:34:14.:34:17.

world the canal is run by volunteers.

:34:17.:34:21.

So, we have massive charities that people are involved in, this is yet

:34:21.:34:24.

another one. We have the National Trust. People have local causes

:34:24.:34:29.

that they are involved in. It could look like a money-saving exercise

:34:29.:34:33.

on the Government's side and relying on people to take up the

:34:33.:34:38.

slack? I don't this think that the Treasury would agree! We have

:34:38.:34:42.

handed over hundreds of millions for them. I think this is

:34:42.:34:46.

everywhere I go, David is right, there is huge enthusiasm and

:34:46.:34:51.

passion, not just from boaters. I have caught my first pike in the

:34:51.:35:01.
:35:01.:35:03.

Avon Can ap when I was nine -year- old. I know the passions that exist.

:35:03.:35:08.

Was that legal? If there are police around they may arrest you! There

:35:08.:35:13.

are kaurls from the opposition to ask the Government to put their

:35:13.:35:18.

hands in pockets and supply cash to hit areas, are you going to do it?

:35:18.:35:21.

There is the Bellwin Scheme it kicks in when the local authorities

:35:21.:35:25.

are hit. They have been hit what you

:35:25.:35:30.

planned? They will receive money under the Bellwin Scheme. Places

:35:30.:35:36.

such as heb done bridge, many of us have visited since the first flood.

:35:36.:35:42.

Now they have been visited again, they shrn flooded again. We want to

:35:42.:35:46.

ensure that the Government is doing its bit alongside the local efforts

:35:46.:35:51.

that are made. Will we have to get used to more

:35:51.:35:56.

flash flooding and you have to change the way that we deal with

:35:56.:36:01.

it? We know that the climate weather patterns are changing. We

:36:01.:36:07.

have been facing two droughts and now really horrendous rain. I'm not

:36:07.:36:11.

saying it will be as extreme as that, but yes, we have to plan for

:36:11.:36:15.

this kind of weather patterns to continue. We have to make sure that

:36:15.:36:20.

Government carries on doing what it is supposed to do. That is building

:36:20.:36:25.

flood defence schemes. That is what we are doing, investing �2 .1 7

:36:25.:36:30.

billion on that and helping out when we can when the emergencies

:36:30.:36:34.

occur. I think that the response has been good, but most of the

:36:34.:36:39.

people that have been flooded, you could not stop the torrent of water

:36:39.:36:44.

that they faced. On the public paths on the canals,

:36:44.:36:49.

are they a public right of way? They are part of the deal.

:36:49.:36:55.

So no tolls put up for us to walk along the canals, is that right?

:36:55.:37:00.

Yes, and we want to see them wider so that the cyclists and walkers

:37:00.:37:08.

can use them. So, we know where to come to now...

:37:08.:37:13.

Send the bills to Richard Benyon. He will send a fish back! Now, the

:37:13.:37:16.

Olympics are posing a massive challenge to the security services

:37:16.:37:21.

and shining a spotlight on the tools that Government has to keep

:37:21.:37:25.

us safe. How effective are they? Last week a suspected terrorist was

:37:25.:37:30.

charged with breaching conditions imposed ats part of the

:37:30.:37:34.

Government's new terror monitoring powers. It is believed to be the

:37:34.:37:41.

first time that there has been breach of the so-called TPIMs, this

:37:41.:37:44.

is Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures.

:37:44.:37:48.

They replace control orders earlier this year as the system for dealing

:37:48.:37:51.

with terrorist suspects who cannot be tried or deported.

:37:51.:37:57.

People who are subject to a TPIMs can be electronically tagged and

:37:57.:38:01.

restrictions placed on who they can meet and where they can go.

:38:01.:38:06.

Unlike control orders, though, TPIMs are time-limited to two years.

:38:06.:38:13.

Some say that TPIMs are no more than control orders lite, that they

:38:13.:38:16.

place restrictions on the freedoms of people not charged with offence.

:38:16.:38:22.

We are joined now to discuss this by Robin Simcox from the Henry

:38:22.:38:26.

Jackson Foundation who writes about Al-Qaeda and other terrorists and

:38:26.:38:32.

David Davis, you are still against TPIMs, because they are too

:38:32.:38:36.

draconian or not draconian enough? I am against them because they

:38:36.:38:41.

don't work. This is not the first occasion that this has happened.

:38:41.:38:45.

This man went there five times before he was pulled up. Lord knows

:38:45.:38:51.

what he was doing. Another one under the previous control orders

:38:51.:38:56.

got to within ten foot of Jack Straw and Dominic grieve, until he

:38:56.:39:00.

announced himself. So again, they don't work. They are not control

:39:00.:39:04.

orders. They are uncontrol orders. So we corrupt the system and we

:39:04.:39:09.

have a system that does not work. What do you say to that? Nobody

:39:09.:39:13.

would say that these are a perfect, ideal system, but unfortunately it

:39:13.:39:18.

is the best that we have. This is something that came about as

:39:18.:39:22.

detention, deportation, prosecution, control orders were not seen as

:39:22.:39:25.

acceptable. So we were left with basically what we could get through

:39:25.:39:30.

legally of the with some of the individuals, the people that David

:39:30.:39:34.

Davis mentioned that got within ten feet, after he was released after a

:39:34.:39:39.

big civil rights campaign on his behalf, he ended up back in

:39:39.:39:43.

Afghanistan and killed in a US missile strike. So it proves the

:39:43.:39:46.

point that these are serious individuals. The man that breached

:39:46.:39:50.

the Olympic security, he would not be there at all if the control

:39:50.:39:57.

orders were in place. Originally he was under a relocation order. It is

:39:57.:40:04.

when the TPIMs came back and we lost the power to relocate, we were

:40:04.:40:09.

Australian unable to track him. Well, he walked away, he was not

:40:09.:40:13.

released. He absconded, so let's get the fact right. He left the

:40:14.:40:18.

country. Secondly, you said that they, the

:40:18.:40:23.

reason was done because prosecuting them was wrong? Absolutely the

:40:23.:40:27.

opposite. We said ewe should be prosecuting them, put him in prison,

:40:27.:40:33.

then they could not walk around either near leading politicians or

:40:33.:40:38.

into the Olympic Park. The problem, in fact, was brought about as the

:40:38.:40:42.

Government said we could not deport people. Not one of the people on

:40:42.:40:45.

control orders are subject to deportation orders. They are all

:40:46.:40:51.

British citizens. We have taken a problem and created a mefplnifpl

:40:51.:40:57.

and used it for something differently -- mechanism and used

:40:57.:41:02.

something different as the orders do not do the job it is supposed to

:41:02.:41:12.

do. The American FBIs put their men in prison, we put them under a

:41:12.:41:15.

control order. With every single control order

:41:15.:41:20.

case, not a single case at that time, could have been prosecuted

:41:20.:41:25.

unless there was evidence allowed. Who did the review? A Government

:41:26.:41:30.

review. The Americans do prosecute more, but America places a lot more

:41:30.:41:35.

for example, FBI agents under cover and they have plea bargaining, but

:41:35.:41:40.

would we be happy with that? We don't have the exact same legal

:41:40.:41:45.

system in the UK as in the US. Is it your position, David Davis,

:41:45.:41:49.

that there should be nothing inbetween walking free, without a

:41:49.:41:53.

control, and prosecution? Nothing inbetween? For British citizens, I

:41:53.:41:57.

think that prosecution is the be all and the end all. I'm afraid

:41:57.:42:02.

that the Government's arguments on this are plum wrong on interception.

:42:02.:42:06.

You go to the Department of Justice, as I have, talk to the Australians,

:42:06.:42:11.

New Zealanders, the Canadians, they say you don't use intercept

:42:12.:42:16.

evidence? They clean up every single trial on terrorism in the

:42:16.:42:20.

United States and most of trials on organised crime, using intercept

:42:20.:42:26.

tape, all of them. You can't do it without that. They could not clean

:42:26.:42:29.

up the Mafia without the intercept tapes, now they do it. We should be

:42:29.:42:35.

doing it here. We should not be prissy about it, if we not, we

:42:35.:42:38.

would not have to corrupt the whole legal stement.

:42:39.:42:42.

Do you side with the security services when they say they don't

:42:42.:42:47.

want intercept material used? That is still their position? Well, no,

:42:47.:42:53.

they don't. This is one of those things where

:42:53.:42:57.

to the extent, I believe if that is what they say it would weaken the

:42:57.:43:02.

security system, perhaps. Why do our people say that, when

:43:02.:43:08.

the Americans and the Canadians are saying that it doesn't? If you look

:43:08.:43:13.

at the Government review they did a lot of models replacing intercept

:43:13.:43:16.

evidence into the British legal system, they said it would not work.

:43:16.:43:20.

That is their position, but it comes back to the point they looked

:43:20.:43:25.

at every case with control orders and tried to use intercept evidence

:43:25.:43:30.

and said it would not lead to prosecution. Lord Lloyd was the

:43:30.:43:34.

Intercept Commissioner, he knows the system backwards and forwards.

:43:34.:43:37.

He moved a private members' bill in the House of Lords to try to bring

:43:37.:43:41.

intercept into court. The man who knew the most about it, things that

:43:41.:43:46.

we should bring it back. The people who don't have an interest in not

:43:46.:43:50.

going to court, they have interest in disruption, rather than

:43:50.:43:52.

conviction. It is the wrong approach.

:43:53.:43:57.

Is there a chance of it happening? It may be. It will be revisited

:43:57.:44:02.

again this year. The Committee that is dealing with it is still sitting.

:44:02.:44:06.

They nearly recommended the use of intercept, then there was a last-

:44:06.:44:10.

minute scare on a finish case. It may well happen. It will allow us

:44:10.:44:15.

to cut back on silly things that bring us into disrepute.

:44:15.:44:19.

If we are going to solve the evidence on waiting intercept

:44:19.:44:24.

evidence coming in, we are in for a long wait. There is real and

:44:24.:44:27.

necessary security threats that we have to deal with today, that is

:44:27.:44:32.

why TPIMs is still used. Now, just over 65% of us made the

:44:32.:44:36.

trip to the polling station at the last election. That is down from a

:44:36.:44:41.

high of 83% in the 1950 election. It seems that the young are the

:44:41.:44:44.

least likely to vote. Research suggests that go thirds of 18-year-

:44:44.:44:50.

olds have little trust in politicians. Radio's Newsbeat took

:44:50.:44:57.

young people to meet the Conservative MP, lie ease

:44:57.:45:00.

Menchmench and others to see what they made of politics and

:45:00.:45:10.
:45:10.:45:13.

I and 22, from south-west London and I want to know why MPs that

:45:14.:45:17.

don't care about young people unless it is election time. I am

:45:17.:45:21.

from Glasgow and I want to know why you think you should be trusted

:45:21.:45:28.

after that there expenses scandal. I am from Portsmouth. I was about

:45:29.:45:38.

to become a student and now I have to pay up to �9,000. Your age group

:45:38.:45:45.

is the least likely to vote. have got to wonder why that is.

:45:45.:45:48.

There is a responsibility the young people to get in touch and get

:45:48.:45:52.

involved. The public perception with young

:45:52.:45:56.

people is you are all the same, you fiddled your expenses, you have

:45:56.:46:01.

these cushy pension deals and they have not taken on board all of the

:46:01.:46:09.

reforms that have happened. A lot of people voted because of the

:46:09.:46:15.

tuition fees and then you made a U- turn on that. I am a Lib Dem and

:46:15.:46:21.

I'm will put my hand and say I voted not to increase tuition fees.

:46:21.:46:28.

When was the last time you had to make a perfect decision?

:46:28.:46:33.

One of the problems in this job, is it we spend so much time in this

:46:33.:46:37.

building, in means I spent the vast majority of the week with the same,

:46:37.:46:44.

slightly strange people - no offence! And very little time with

:46:44.:46:47.

the people I represent. It is one of the reasons politicians get out

:46:47.:46:55.

of touch. You are an MP and you are calling other MPs strange. Imagine

:46:55.:47:00.

how young people feel? I agree, we should rebalance it so

:47:00.:47:04.

all MPs get the chance to spend time in their constituencies.

:47:04.:47:09.

have to do a lot more to change your lineage and rather than come

:47:09.:47:18.

in and say "we are different." you have a lot more to do. David Davis.

:47:18.:47:25.

-- change your image. But young people don't vote.

:47:25.:47:31.

What is new? They don't vote anywhere? You are quite right. When

:47:31.:47:34.

you and I were student politicians we had trouble getting them out to

:47:34.:47:41.

vote. They're interested in politics. But the number of people

:47:41.:47:48.

voting is going down throughout the population in Britain. In France,

:47:48.:47:52.

80 this cent turnout in the French presidential election? Why? Because

:47:52.:47:57.

there was a really big difference between the candidates. If this can

:47:58.:48:00.

do that is over here, and this candidate is over there and they're

:48:00.:48:05.

having a real argument, there is a reason to go and vote. It you think

:48:05.:48:11.

they are broadly the same, orc as during the Tony Blair years, you

:48:11.:48:15.

think they will win anyway, which is another problem you just might

:48:15.:48:18.

as well stay at home and watch Coronation Street. We did not know

:48:18.:48:22.

who was going to win the last election, but nobody did win it in

:48:22.:48:29.

the end. We are surprised the turnout was not higher? I was. It

:48:29.:48:33.

was a challenge and a potential turning point. We also had the TV

:48:33.:48:37.

debates. And they were quite good. They were watched by a lot of

:48:37.:48:43.

people. When we were watching the first one, my family had a

:48:43.:48:46.

sweepstake on how soon I would leave the room. I stayed until the

:48:47.:48:52.

end. I suspect I am typical in that respect. I don't find it terribly

:48:52.:48:56.

exciting. But they were very good debates and it did not galvanise

:48:56.:49:01.

people to turn out. The lack of difference, lack of idealism is the

:49:01.:49:06.

problem. Too much managerial politics. The research from this

:49:06.:49:11.

University says 63% of young people are interested in politics, even if

:49:11.:49:17.

they don't vote. And I am told if some of them get out of bed in time,

:49:17.:49:21.

they watch this programme. Politicians are estranged Reid,

:49:21.:49:26.

that is why people don't vote. was normal about Winston Churchill?

:49:26.:49:31.

Hands up if you are political anorak? If you think of yourself as

:49:31.:49:35.

the top political nerd, you should be interested in this. The

:49:35.:49:38.

Electoral Commission has published its report on the way election

:49:38.:49:45.

counts are organised and what happens next will change the all-

:49:45.:49:49.

night election night. And yes, staying up all night to enjoy

:49:49.:49:55.

scenes like these. Can we predict something in this

:49:55.:50:05.
:50:05.:50:09.

election. I was looking at some of these results. Just half a dozen

:50:09.:50:13.

results to come throughout London and the South East. Now I am

:50:13.:50:20.

handing you back to David Dimbleby. I think that about wraps it up this

:50:20.:50:25.

morning. A 4th Conservative term with a substantial majority is in

:50:25.:50:32.

prospect. Peter? As Jon Sopel was saying, not an uplifting time for

:50:32.:50:42.
:50:42.:50:43.

the Liberal Democrats. 1979, Mrs Thatcher beat Mr Callaghan. We will

:50:43.:50:51.

interrupted because Labour has victory and a guaranteed third term.

:50:51.:51:00.

We should look at Big Ben 1 small and see things how they are on the

:51:00.:51:05.

ta Big Ben. The country cannot afford to just not have a

:51:05.:51:10.

Government for a week or more, why people do the rounds and talk to

:51:10.:51:18.

each other. Everybody feeling warm and nostalgic. Is the traditional

:51:18.:51:23.

election night safe? We have been joined by Alex Robinson and

:51:23.:51:28.

Jonathan Isaby. Welcome to the programme. Alex, pressure from

:51:28.:51:33.

returning officers to count the next day, what are you saying?

:51:33.:51:36.

we have been doing is talking to returning officers who are

:51:36.:51:40.

responsible for conducting elections. We have been talking to

:51:40.:51:44.

politicians and broadcasters and there are a number of different

:51:44.:51:49.

elections taking place, sometimes on the same day. Although we don't

:51:49.:51:53.

think there is a single answer for any of them. Although for a General

:51:53.:51:57.

Election, default counting should be overnight. But returning officer

:51:57.:52:02.

should consult but politicians and broadcasters early. They should

:52:02.:52:05.

make a decision in January for an election in May. They should make

:52:05.:52:09.

their decision public and that will lead to the right decision being

:52:09.:52:13.

arrived at. You have to persuade them to count overnight hoping the

:52:13.:52:17.

pressure will bear fruit? It is the dialogue between politicians and

:52:17.:52:22.

broadcasters which I think will lead to the right decision. Does

:52:22.:52:27.

that satisfy you? I am happy Electoral Commission has decided

:52:27.:52:31.

overnight counting is the right thing to do. Before the last

:52:31.:52:36.

General Election I ran a campaign to save General Election night. A

:52:36.:52:39.

lot of returning officers were talking about counting on the

:52:39.:52:44.

Friday. It was a retrograde step. If people are taking the trouble to

:52:44.:52:49.

vote, they should be counted. as it matter, bearing in mind,

:52:49.:52:53.

quite a lot of people sleep when they have voted and don't sit up

:52:53.:52:58.

all night and this is about just having a very good television

:52:58.:53:03.

programme? She is talking as out of a job!

:53:03.:53:08.

not just political nerves. It is the one time, every five years

:53:08.:53:11.

where there is this national carnival of democracy where people

:53:11.:53:15.

sit around the television and watch results coming in and fill part of

:53:15.:53:21.

the Democratic Process. If you're going to get more counts coming

:53:21.:53:25.

together and one might, mistakes will be made? Let's look ahead to

:53:25.:53:29.

the next General Election. We could have constituencies with new

:53:29.:53:33.

boundaries. We could have House of Lords reform - I grant you not

:53:33.:53:37.

looking too hopeful. There could be local elections. How will they

:53:38.:53:42.

manage it all? The important thing is the result is accurate and

:53:42.:53:48.

timely. Accurate is probably the key. From talking to returning

:53:48.:53:52.

officers, in some circumstances, last year we had geographical

:53:52.:54:02.
:54:02.:54:05.

constituencies. The Western Isles do it. They count on the night and

:54:05.:54:11.

a helicopter the vote between islands. It is done in 45 minutes

:54:11.:54:16.

because they throw resources at it and it is a small constituency. You

:54:16.:54:20.

cannot roll that out across the rest of the nation? Over the last

:54:20.:54:24.

50 years more counts have happened on the night. Northern Ireland

:54:24.:54:28.

counted on the Thursday night, previously they had to do it on a

:54:28.:54:33.

Friday night for security reasons. It should be everyone counts on the

:54:33.:54:37.

night and we can find out on the Friday morning he the Prime

:54:37.:54:42.

Minister is. On the Friday morning, a lot of the council not coming in

:54:42.:54:45.

until halfway through the Today programme. Would a few more hours

:54:45.:54:49.

make that much difference? If you started on the Friday and got all

:54:49.:54:55.

the results? It you counted on the Friday you wouldn't have the shared

:54:55.:54:58.

experience of people following the results coming in. Most people on

:54:58.:55:02.

the Friday would be at work, looking after the kids or doing

:55:02.:55:09.

something else. What do you think? I used to like having the next day

:55:09.:55:14.

count because then I could watch people suffering all night. I agree,

:55:14.:55:19.

but the sooner the better. Returning officers can make the

:55:19.:55:24.

decision themselves, they cannot be forced to do overnight count?

:55:24.:55:28.

their decision and the need to make sure it is an accurate results and

:55:28.:55:35.

practically, as soon as possible afterwards. The campaign Jonathan

:55:36.:55:41.

was involved in, is they were not going to count the votes before the

:55:41.:55:45.

end of the poll. Would it be sensible to hold a national

:55:45.:55:48.

referendum on something like Europe and the same day as a General

:55:48.:55:55.

Election? Unique to look at each set of elections on their own merit.

:55:55.:56:00.

We look at the one last May, which took place at the same time as

:56:00.:56:04.

Northern Ireland, and we decided it was important they took place and

:56:04.:56:14.
:56:14.:56:14.

got them out of the way. That was use saying no, wasn't it? We need

:56:14.:56:20.

to have a vote on Europe before the next General Election Next this

:56:20.:56:27.

next item is called screamer. of you had been in touch to ask a

:56:27.:56:30.

replay of our splendid highlight from yesterday's Prime Minister's

:56:30.:56:36.

Questions. As humble public servants we are happy to oblige. It

:56:36.:56:42.

was a question from Tory MP called Anne Marie Maurice.

:56:42.:56:52.
:56:52.:56:53.

This Government has a greater Records on reform. After the

:56:54.:56:58.

success of the university's technical college, would become --

:56:58.:57:08.
:57:08.:57:12.

Prime Minister confirmed he will support...

:57:12.:57:21.

What was the point at of the sling if you are going to wave your arm

:57:21.:57:28.

around. How is your hearing? What? It's was incredibly loud close-up.

:57:29.:57:35.

What was she saying? I do not know. I was worrying about her arm. I

:57:35.:57:41.

thought she was going to break her arm again. It was quite a drama.

:57:41.:57:47.

Will she have that down? It will haunt her? I think people will have

:57:47.:57:52.

affection for that. It was done with some passion. If her arm

:57:52.:57:57.

wasn't broken, it is now after that. Do we have time for the quiz?

:57:57.:58:07.
:58:07.:58:17.

David? As a keen UFOs sturdier? Military reconnaissance. It is all

:58:17.:58:21.

three. Some of them were asylum-seekers. I

:58:21.:58:28.

like the idea of tourism. That's it for today. Thanks to our

:58:28.:58:34.

guests. Thanks to David Davis. I will be back at 11:25pm tonight on

:58:34.:58:39.

BBC One with this week. It is earlier than usual as there is no

:58:39.:58:46.

question time tonight. I will be joined by Alan Johnson, Michael

:58:46.:58:49.

Portillo plus Gloria Hunniford talking about care for older people.

:58:50.:58:55.

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