Conference Special Daily Politics


Conference Special

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn with the latest political news and interviews from Westminster and Labour conference in Manchester, including former cabinet minister Tessa Jowell.


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Transcript


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Afternoon, folks. Welcome to our Daily Politics conference special

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on the Labour Party Conference in Manchester. Indeed two specials for

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the price of one today. We're on air until 1pm today then back at

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2pm here on BBC2 because, in just over just over two hours, Ed

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Miliband makes his big annual speech to conference - this time

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with the specific aim of selling Ed A local comprehensive school.

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a comprehensive school like I did. And it's not all about Ed's

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schooling. Labour unveil the technical Baccalaureate saying they

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will invest �1 billion in what they are calling the forgotten 50%, who

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don't got to university. And we ask delegates to react to calls from

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the biggest union boss of all to kick Blairites out of the Labour

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Party. I am writing a book about where -- wife Blairites should

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never be allowed back. I am sure we can all hardly wait to read that.

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Did you know that Ed Miliband went to a comprehensive? All that in the

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next hour. And with us for the duration, not one but two top

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opinion pollsters, Andrew Hawkins of Com Res and Stephan Shakespeare

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:02:16.:02:18.

of YouGov. Welcome to you both. A lot to talk about. And where better

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to start than with the latest opinion poll to look at Ed

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Miliband's popularity. The ComRes poll for theIndependent shows

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Labour's lead falling from seven points last month to just three

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points ahead on 38% with the Conservatives on a steady 35% and

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the Lib Dems up three points to 15%. This gives Labour a far smaller

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lead than the polls we mentioned on the programme yesterday.

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Unfortunately, for Mr Miliband, the ComRes poll is consistent with

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others in suggesting that many people doubt his leadership

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credentials. Just 22% of people believed Mr Miliband would make a

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good Prime Minister that compares to 39% who think Cameron makes a

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good PM. And only 24% of people say they trust Mr Miliband and the

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Shadow Chancellor, Ed Balls, to make the right decisions on the

:03:05.:03:15.
:03:15.:03:16.

economy. Isn't this quite remarkable? You had him ahead at 5%

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at the weekend. You have now got him at three. I know it

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shuttlecocks around a little bit. When the think of the state of the

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economy, the squeeze of living standards, the deficit rising again,

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the coalition at each other's throats, frankly, I am a raise --

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amazed at how low the Labour lead is. We should preface with the

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electoral geography means Labour would still get a workable majority.

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Mid-term there. That is shocking. It is after the Lib Dem Conference.

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Come 2015, we will have another situation on our hands, as in 2010,

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where the coverage that the Liberal Democrat leader gets at the time

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will give him a boost in the polls at the expense of Labour. It is a

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straight switch we saw today from Labour to the Liberal Democrats.

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Not a huge switch but it shows house of the Labour lead is. Your

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poll went back up to nine. It seems like the Labour lead is struggling

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to get over 10. Are we seeing a softening of the Labour position?

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think we are. We're seeing a softening of loyalty across all

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parties, especially at the moment with Labour. Why? People see things

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going wrong and they do not think anyone has the answer. Why softer

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for Labour? They are in opposition. The party is united. They have a

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new young leader. They're not whipping themselves apart.

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problem is that they have not found their voice. The whole thing about

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pointy head and proud of it reminds me as when they were of rebranding

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Duncan-Smith. That is what happens when you flounder around and you

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have not until voice. Isn't it astonishing that not only due to

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root out of 10 people think Ed Miliband is prime ministerial

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material? -- two out of 10. Almost half of the Labour supporters think

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:05:46.:05:47.

he is not prime-ministerial come material. 42% do. That is even

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Stevens. It comes down to one single issue and that is the

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economy. We saw one of the latest trackers last week which shows the

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economy has been the number one issue since 2007. On that, Ed

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Miliband, the only person on the main parties who has lectured in

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economics at Harvard, he is unable to get across his message on the

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number one thing. He is also a drag on the party's ratings. That is

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again apparent from today's poll, from both the economic trust

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figures and there would make a good Prime Minister figures. David

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Cameron pulls his party up. significant is it that all the

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polls show the Conservatives more trusted than Labour on the economy?

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If he cannot give him the coalition's economic strategy is in

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trouble at the moment, if you've cannot be seen to be more trusted

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than the coalition at the moment, Labour would be in trouble.

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economy is the question of the day. The economy will be the question of

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the next election. It will not be about the next election, it will be

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about the economy. To not be ahead when things are really bad is bad.

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If they do not find a boy soon they have missed an opportunity. -- a

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buoys. You can be a toff and run the economy competently, people do

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not want and incompetent leader, even if they come across as an

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ordinary bloke like them. I guess we know why they're doing all this

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building up - trying to build up his personality and character.

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People getting to know him is the big issue of this conference. We

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will find that out in a moment because we will go to the

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conference. Now the big theme emerging from Labour conference

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today is education. There's Ed Miliband's plan for a shake-up in

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vocational courses, but there's also a big emphasis on the Labour

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leader's own time at school. No, not the primary school he went to

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with Boris Johnson, but the secondary school which he says

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taught him to get on with people whatever their background. And just

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to make sure no-one misses the point, Labour's going to show a

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party political broadcast on television on Wednesday night

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highlighting his school years. Here's a flavour. In the early 80s,

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I was the deputy head of a local comprehensive school in the London

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Borough of Camden. That is, of course, where I met Ed Bona -- Ed

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Miliband. The education I got was so much more than have to pass

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exams. It was about how to look after yourself, the world is a

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complex place with people of all kinds and all nationalities - all

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classes and races. That is the really important lesson in life.

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make a journey like that from a local comprehensive school to

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teaching at Harvard, you have probably got to have that knowledge.

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Coming from a comprehensive like I did, may be that does give you a

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different perspective when you end up somewhere like Harvard. I do not

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know. He came across as a very decent bloke. A few highlights of

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Labour's latest party political broadcast there, and you may just

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have got the message that Ed Miliband went to a comprehensive.

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If you have not come up watch it again on Wednesday. I would like to

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check that! To discuss that film and the mood at Labour conference

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in Manchester let's talk to Rosa Prince of the Daily Telegraph and

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Rowenna Davis of the New Statesman. I am presuming you have seen this.

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What did he make of it? It is very glossy and glowing - very Hollywood.

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Also a bit strange. Do you really need to a head from the deputy

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headmaster of Ed Miliband and his friend saying how good he was at

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maths. Do we need to hear how he was a top professor at Harvard? At

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one stage, Labour will accept they have got Ed Miliband, rather than

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telling us all about his problems. Just get on with it and get on with

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some policies and let's have something to hear from the rest of

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the Labour team. That is a point of view. But Ed Miliband is trying to

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do in that video is convinced the public that not all politicians are

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the same. Public perception is that all politicians belong to the top

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1%. He is saying, I have a story to tell. I was the son of migrants and

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I went to a comprehensive school, which is very different from David

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Cameron. It is interesting that most people have written him off.

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Two years ago, Ed Miliband was considered impossible as Labour

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leader. Bennett was inconceivable. Now it is possible, maybe even

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probable. When half of Labour supporters are not convinced he

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would make a Prime Minister, that Jenny has stalled if you like. Will

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this help him cut through, which he has not done yet? -- journey.

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year, he laid out a very philosophical vision about the

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nature of the country and responsible capitalism and the

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squeezed middle. That was dismissed by everyone. Now it is the

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competing grand that all parties are trying to win. What he has to

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do is to present those terms in concrete and practical ways which

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will resound with the people of the country. How we make a difference

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to them in an everyday sense? you knew him better, you would like

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him off - that is the point of this speech - and the point of this

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movie. That is what they're trying to say. As much as they are trying

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to say, this is Ed Miliband, get to know him and like him. They are

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also trying to say that David Cameron went to Eton. He is cashing

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in, though he is not going to say the word, pleb in his speech I he

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is highlighting the difference he feels there is between the

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Conservative Cabinet and his background. I been that is a bit

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dangerous. To say that most people went to comprehensive school,

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aren't I great? Do we not want a bit more grown up politics? Isn't

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the real problem that people do not know who he is yet? They do not

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know who he is. The most famous thing you could argue it is the

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fight with his brother. Exactly the stuff we need to move on a debate

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ENG keep telling the story. -- exactly. He will never be the

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ultimate charisma politician. It will be about whether a trust can

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win out over that sense of charisma. Ed Miliband has demonstrated he has

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a set of policy ideas which resonate where people are at the

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moment. If you keep telling that story over and again, he started

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off from a position where he was considered a write-off and now he

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has a voice and that form a way of talking about him today. I suppose

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there is a case to be made and Ed Miliband is trying to say he is a

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man of ideas was dug talking about being a nerd, to contrast

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presumably with what David Cameron is trying to say and that is he is

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a shallow. I think David Cameron does have a shallow problem. I'm

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not sure if the solution is to say how intelligent Ed Miliband is. You

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are right to raise the problem of David Miliband. The idea he is

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awkward and not a real person. As well as the tangible effects of

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having a family around, I think it played really badly in the public.

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People thought, I would not do that to my brother. That will continue

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to be something that plagues him. To go on about how bright he is and

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how smart. We had a Harvard professor on earlier in the week

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who talked about all sorts of strange things. I am not sure that

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is the answer. I think he needs to do a little more of David Cameron

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showing the family. I despise that as a means of campaigning but it

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seems to work for David Cameron. Perhaps that would rip the toxic

:14:51.:15:01.
:15:01.:15:03.

Pointy head is an American expression for intellectuals. The

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mix in the administration used to talk about the pointy headed,

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:15:17.:15:24.

That is what it is, pointy head. Consider this conundrum. You are an

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ordinary comprehensive school- educated son of a Marxist professor.

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You are lucky in intellect, but not in love. He joined a dating site.

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Imagine your horror when you turn up and find out that your date does

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not share your views on Prix Distribution, predators, producers

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or anything beginning with the letter P. Ed is happily hitched now.

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But love 6th Labour types need longer -- lovesick labour market

:15:53.:15:59.

types need worry no longer. They are being encouraged to register at

:15:59.:16:04.

leftwingdating. It even has suggestions as to where you might

:16:05.:16:09.

want to cook up with like minded to potential partners, like a romantic

:16:09.:16:15.

TUC demonstration, for example. The Daily Politics is not a dating

:16:15.:16:19.

service, in case it escaped your notice. But we could for queue up

:16:19.:16:29.
:16:29.:16:29.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 82 seconds

:16:29.:17:52.

Let's see if you can remember when To be in with a chance of winning a

:17:52.:17:55.

Daily Politics mug, send your answer to our special e-mail

:17:55.:18:05.
:18:05.:18:07.

address. You can see the full terms I think Ed Miliband went to wake

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comprehensive... Education, education, education. Remember that,

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from Mr Blair? What about vocational training, vocational

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training, vocational training? It doesn't have the same ring to it.

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But it is something we are expecting to hear a bit of this

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Listen carefully. It seems everybody wants a bit of the France

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dans l'ecole at the moment. We have had Monsieur Gove's idea of the

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English baccalaureate certificate. And now Ed le Rouge wants to reform

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qualifications in England with a new Technical baccalaureate. Guess

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what, this would be a gold standard as well. He will say he wants to

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focus on the forgotten 50% of school-leavers who do not go to

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university. His aides say that only 1% of students on NVQ courses end

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up with jobs on some courses. Students who take the new Technical

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baccalaureate would also have to study English and maths as a strict

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condition. Details are vague, but he wants businesses to have a role

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in devising the courses. He also wants to give them �1 billion of

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government money to reshape apprenticeships, which teenagers

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can transferring to once they have got their Technical baccalaureate.

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The shadow Work and Pensions Secretary Liam Byrne joins us now

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from Manchester. Good to see you. Your education spokesman has

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criticised the Government for returning to a two tier system. But

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if you have, as you are proposing, one set of qualifications for

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academic kids and another for everybody else, that might be the

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right thing to do but it is two- tier in anybody's language? No, I

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don't think so. It's about making sure there are very high standards

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maintained and, indeed, created, no matter what route we take. Whether

:20:03.:20:07.

it is a vocational or academic. We have a system today that gives you

:20:07.:20:11.

a very clear path through, if you are taking an academic route. If

:20:11.:20:15.

you are 14 and you want to go to university, it's a pretty clear

:20:15.:20:23.

route. GCSE, A-levels, university, in to work. The same choice is not

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so clear if you are 14 and you want to go to a vocational route and

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into work. It's too complicated. We need to create a very clear route

:20:32.:20:36.

through and make sure that there are world-class qualifications

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available at 18. These changes we are announcing today are big ideas.

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I think they have been welcomed right across the business community.

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They are big ideas, interesting ideas. But it sounds like to tears

:20:49.:20:53.

to me, may be trying to make those equal, and they have succeeded in

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Germany in doing that, but I wonder if we could in Britain? How many

:20:58.:21:02.

kids from Eton or Harrow do you think will want to take the

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Technical baccalaureate? A I'm sorry, the sound quality is very

:21:06.:21:12.

bad. I apologise. I was saying that what he described sounded like a

:21:12.:21:16.

two-tier system to me. You were trying to make them of equal status,

:21:16.:21:21.

but there are still two, and only the Germans have managed to make

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them of equal status. I wondered if we could do that in this country.

:21:24.:21:29.

For example, how many kids from Eton or harrowed do you think would

:21:29.:21:35.

be applying to do the Technical baccalaureate? I don't know enough

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about the aspirations, I'm afraid, of students at Eton. A lot of

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people in constituencies like mine really hunger for that high quality

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vocational route. If you take Jaguar Land Rover, a big plant on

:21:51.:21:54.

the edge of my constituency, they operate apprenticeships right now

:21:54.:21:58.

that are harder to get into than Oxford. What they want is the

:21:58.:22:01.

wherewithal to expand the apprenticeship they have one of

:22:01.:22:04.

careful stop giving business a much more direct and in how those

:22:04.:22:07.

apprenticeships are shaped, created and expanded is something they are

:22:07.:22:10.

going to welcome. Crucially, you have got to have people applying

:22:10.:22:14.

for those apprenticeships that have the technical skills that

:22:14.:22:16.

businesses like Jaguar Land Rover needs. We've got to get the

:22:16.:22:20.

curriculum right and we got to make sure that maths and English is

:22:20.:22:23.

sustained wall of the way up to 18 as part of getting the

:22:23.:22:26.

qualification. I understand that and I understand you are involving

:22:27.:22:30.

business as well. You have some money available, or you say there

:22:30.:22:37.

will be, anyway. When Mr Miliband says he wants kids not only to

:22:37.:22:41.

aspire to Oxford and Cambridge, but two excellent technical colleges

:22:41.:22:47.

and delete vocational institutions. Can you name one in this country? -

:22:47.:22:57.
:22:57.:23:00.

Of course, Britain has some of the best universities. Can he would

:23:00.:23:05.

name an elite vocational institution? We got to give

:23:05.:23:08.

business a much more direct say in the way that those institutions are

:23:08.:23:12.

created. They are not going to be formed by business on their own or

:23:12.:23:15.

buy the estate on their own. But the Government and business working

:23:15.:23:18.

together stands a fighting chance of getting it right. As you hinted

:23:18.:23:24.

like Germany have got this right. We know that the world is going to

:23:24.:23:29.

become far more competitive over the next few years, as the rise of

:23:29.:23:35.

China continues to change the environment for business. We do not

:23:35.:23:38.

compete when we leave 1 million young people out of work, as we do

:23:38.:23:43.

right now. I think there is one thing that it has shown, it is that

:23:43.:23:45.

we need far more sustained effort to get young people into work.

:23:45.:23:49.

Crucially, we need to make sure that young people are coming into a

:23:49.:23:53.

competitive labour market with the right skills to do the job. Isn't

:23:53.:23:56.

it indicative of the scale of the problem that you face, a problem

:23:56.:24:01.

that has been with us since Victorian times, that whereas we

:24:01.:24:06.

can all Niemi elite universities, you could not name an elite

:24:06.:24:11.

vocational institution? I think part of the complexity has been

:24:11.:24:21.
:24:21.:24:21.

that it is a very complicated Watt for education. -- route. If you

:24:21.:24:24.

look at technical education, you get the sense that it is too

:24:25.:24:32.

complicated. There are different qualifications which are good for

:24:32.:24:36.

different types of trade. We want to bring some order to that, which

:24:36.:24:40.

is why we are saying that business needs to be intimately involved in

:24:40.:24:43.

figuring out what are the best qualifications for different

:24:43.:24:47.

vocational routes and different trades in different industries. I

:24:47.:24:51.

think that is what has been missing, that effective partnership between

:24:51.:24:54.

government and business. That is something that we have not mastered

:24:54.:25:01.

yet. I wish you luck on that, it has been a problem since the Royal

:25:01.:25:05.

Commission in 1868 identified the problem. We will see how you get

:25:06.:25:10.

going in trying to put it right. I want to move quickly on to the

:25:10.:25:15.

polling, which shows Labour's lead down to 3% in the Independent this

:25:15.:25:22.

morning. Even half of Labour voters do not think that Ed Miliband is

:25:22.:25:26.

prime-ministerial material. That isn't great as a backdrop to his

:25:26.:25:31.

speech? The polls had been bouncing around for a while. The cons

:25:32.:25:39.

distant trend as you look back is up. I think we forget rather too

:25:39.:25:41.

easily for the election result that we secured only a couple of years

:25:41.:25:47.

ago. We lost 1 million votes in the last election. We lost the services

:25:47.:25:50.

of over 90 MPs. It's one of the worst results in our party's

:25:50.:25:55.

history. What Ed Miliband has done over the last couple of years is an

:25:55.:25:58.

incredible achievement. If you ask people, which is the party that

:25:58.:26:02.

most relates to my values, which shares my values, Labour

:26:02.:26:07.

overwhelmingly wins. That is a radical shift of where we were two

:26:07.:26:12.

years ago. Two years ago, two- thirds of working people said that

:26:12.:26:15.

Labour was out of touch or seriously out of touch with my life

:26:15.:26:19.

and values. The White People's Party, that was a hell of an

:26:19.:26:27.

achievement. -- for a People's Party. Ed Miliband has shifted our

:26:27.:26:31.

party up from anywhere between 8 and 10 points. I think that's a

:26:31.:26:35.

hell of an achievement. I had two pollsters in the studio. Don't go

:26:35.:26:39.

away. Is he right to say that the consistent trend is an increase in

:26:39.:26:43.

the Labour lead? Not that we have seen over the last four was six

:26:44.:26:49.

months. It is coming under pressure. I think the real danger for Labour

:26:49.:26:54.

is that of but one issue, the economy, there has been no

:26:54.:26:58.

appreciable change, no shift at all interested that top team on the

:26:58.:27:08.
:27:08.:27:09.

Labour side over the past 18 months. To quote an old phrase, you can't

:27:09.:27:13.

back a pig on market day. At some point, that figure has to come up

:27:13.:27:18.

for the Labour vote to be solidified. Given the state of the

:27:18.:27:23.

economy and the coalition, it's remarkable that people do not still

:27:23.:27:28.

trust your party on the economy? think there is a growing sense that

:27:28.:27:33.

the economy and the Government's economic plan has not worked out

:27:33.:27:37.

well. A lot of people put their trust in this government at the

:27:37.:27:43.

last election. They bought into the plan that was put on the table. Now

:27:43.:27:47.

they are deeply dissatisfied with the way that it is turning out.

:27:47.:27:54.

they still don't trust you. Well, look, we have still got a lot more

:27:54.:27:58.

to do to convince people that we are the right team for the job

:27:58.:28:02.

after 2015. What Ed has done is he has built a united team, he has set

:28:02.:28:06.

the tempo for the political debate. People are going to look at what

:28:06.:28:09.

specific policies we put on the table as we get closer to the

:28:09.:28:13.

election. I think people have got a clear sense that this government's

:28:13.:28:17.

economic plan has failed. They put us back into a double-dip recession.

:28:17.:28:20.

The only other country in Europe in that position is Italy. What does

:28:20.:28:25.

that mean for the debt? It means the death at the next election will

:28:25.:28:29.

be �450 billion higher than the last election. That is not a bad

:28:29.:28:39.
:28:39.:28:41.

job successful start don't go away. We will see to do something about

:28:41.:28:45.

your sound. The boss of Britain's biggest union

:28:45.:28:49.

and Labour's biggest financial backer, Len McClusky, has called

:28:49.:28:53.

for Blairites to be kicked out of the Labour Party. We decided to

:28:53.:28:57.

send Adam out with his balls. No where at this conference will

:28:57.:29:02.

you see the word new anywhere near the word Labour. So, what should

:29:02.:29:08.

Blairites do? Should they stay or should they go? Stay. Blairites

:29:08.:29:15.

found their way to bring his party back into an exceptional form of

:29:15.:29:20.

progressive politics. Why should they go? We need a fresh start, we

:29:20.:29:25.

need to go in a new direction. It didn't do us any favours, we lost

:29:25.:29:29.

will stop is the party Blairite enough for you at the moment?

:29:29.:29:33.

probably about the right balance, the right level of unity. I am

:29:33.:29:37.

writing a book about why Blairites should never be allowed back.

:29:37.:29:42.

you like to give buyers a summary? They lost the traditional values.

:29:42.:29:47.

We looked down our traditional constituency. We had appalling

:29:47.:29:57.
:29:57.:30:02.

social housing policies. I never And I will put it in her.

:30:02.:30:12.
:30:12.:30:21.

grasped it in an incident -- in an I think the moment there is a new

:30:21.:30:27.

Labour government, Tony Blair will be addressing fringe meetings here.

:30:27.:30:36.

Are there any Blairites still around? You still spot 12-year-olds

:30:36.:30:43.

wearing suits. They seem to have a think about people wearing suits.

:30:43.:30:52.

That is not good. I am wearing a suit. I am a Blairite, so I think I

:30:52.:30:57.

had better vote for myself to stay. Is it lonely being a Blairite at

:30:58.:31:05.

the moment? It would never be lonely. There are so many of us.

:31:05.:31:11.

they have secret meetings? I had better not say on camera.

:31:11.:31:16.

Miliband is absolutely right to go back to the 1945 experience. That

:31:16.:31:21.

is what we need to do - get back and attach to our roots - in get

:31:21.:31:29.

the job done. I'm not worried that that does not sound very modern? --

:31:29.:31:39.
:31:39.:31:45.

are you not worried? I do not think They were the people who got rid of

:31:45.:31:49.

Militant for being too left-wing. They are a party within a party and

:31:49.:31:55.

they have to go as well. I might just swap these around. That could

:31:55.:32:01.

be derailed few within the party. have just seen the book by Tony

:32:01.:32:09.

Blair. Is it going well? How many copies have you sold? So far, none.

:32:09.:32:15.

Tony, it looks like your acolytes are welcome - mostly welcome. That

:32:15.:32:18.

was our Adam with the Daily Politics moodbox, and Liam Byrne is

:32:18.:32:23.

still in Manchester for us. I hope you can still hear me. A little bit.

:32:23.:32:29.

I will shout out. We just watched that film. Someone talked about

:32:29.:32:33.

Blairites having to stay in the closet, it is too dangerous for

:32:33.:32:40.

them about in the wide open. Do you agree with that? I do not.

:32:40.:32:46.

Labour Party has always been brought. We draw people from all

:32:46.:32:50.

corners of the country. There are lots of shades of political opinion.

:32:50.:32:56.

We basically agreed on the important things. We agree our

:32:56.:32:58.

country is stronger when the pull together to help picture that out.

:32:58.:33:03.

When you see an injustice, you do not walk past it kite you do

:33:03.:33:09.

something about it. Why does the Unite General Secretary want to

:33:09.:33:14.

kick the New Labour cuckoos out of the nest? I think different people

:33:14.:33:18.

in the party will always have arguments within the party. That is

:33:18.:33:26.

more than an argument. Who is he talking about? I think a couple of

:33:26.:33:30.

people and the trade union movement had been concerned about one

:33:30.:33:35.

organisation which I helped to set up many years ago. We will always

:33:35.:33:41.

have arguments like this within the Labour Party. That is fine.

:33:41.:33:45.

Sometimes they are important in establishing an important principle.

:33:45.:33:50.

Reprint together lots of people with progressive views. Long may

:33:50.:33:54.

the Labour Party continued in that spirit. It does risky new internal

:33:54.:34:01.

war being waged. There were a large number of people being asked,

:34:01.:34:06.

should Blairites go? You admitted Len McCluskey and others are

:34:06.:34:11.

probably talking about you when they say Labour cuckoos are. How

:34:11.:34:16.

does it feel? You will forgive me for saying this argument is

:34:16.:34:21.

slightly fabricated. There is an enormous degree of unity across the

:34:21.:34:26.

labour movement and a great sense of purpose. There is an enormous

:34:26.:34:31.

amount of support for the programme we set out. In many ways, I cannot

:34:31.:34:37.

remember a time when the Labour Party was as united as it is now.

:34:37.:34:42.

There is pride in our record, a unity in the ranks and pride and

:34:42.:34:48.

determination to do what we need to win the next election. Interns of

:34:48.:34:53.

aspirational agenda, do you think Tony Blair would be pledging to

:34:53.:35:01.

increase the top rate of tax? that again. In terms of the

:35:01.:35:06.

Blairite aspiration agenda, would you and Tony Blair be supporting

:35:06.:35:13.

reverting back to the 50% top rate of tax? Look, at the rate of tax,

:35:13.:35:19.

both at the top and every point up to it, has got to reflect the state

:35:19.:35:23.

of the economy - the job that needs doing on the Budget. It needs to

:35:23.:35:29.

reflect what is at the core of the Labour Party, which is a sense of

:35:29.:35:33.

fairness. When there is a job to beat down, as we have ahead, when

:35:33.:35:38.

you have to get the deficit down and bring down national debt,

:35:38.:35:48.
:35:48.:35:48.

Labour has been very clear. In the two get some judicious spending

:35:49.:35:55.

cuts. Which you and Tony Blair back reverting to 50% top rate of tax?

:35:55.:36:01.

Our position on tax is very clear. It was set out very nicely by it Ed

:36:01.:36:07.

Balls yesterday. The state of the perks, I suspect, will be a dog's

:36:07.:36:11.

breakfast. It is difficult for us to take snap decisions about the

:36:11.:36:15.

right tax strategy, as we approach the next general election. That is

:36:15.:36:22.

why Ed Balls was very clear. It will have to wait closer to the

:36:22.:36:27.

time and be part of the zeroed they Spending Review. That is common

:36:27.:36:35.

sense. It is sensible. -- 0 based Spending Review. That is how we

:36:35.:36:40.

have bounce-back. That is why we will win the next election. If you

:36:40.:36:46.

win, do you think anyone will leave you a note? I did not catch that.

:36:46.:36:52.

Do not worry. Maybe that was deliberate. He was very good

:36:52.:36:59.

natured in his inability to hear. What do you want to say? They had,

:36:59.:37:03.

in Tony Blair, the most successful Labour politician ever. They have

:37:03.:37:07.

these questions about whether they're welcome or not. It is

:37:07.:37:11.

accurate to have this question. When you talk to Labour people,

:37:11.:37:15.

they have them back to their factions. There is this argument

:37:15.:37:19.

going on. It is why they are struggling to make headway in the

:37:19.:37:22.

polls. They always talk about themselves. They talk about the

:37:22.:37:27.

Labour movement and not about the nation. They talk about their

:37:27.:37:30.

traditions and fairness, or comprehensives instead of the

:37:30.:37:34.

economy. They're talking about the wrong things. Be a talking about

:37:34.:37:42.

their own backgrounds. -- it they are talking. While it to spend time

:37:42.:37:45.

talking about the background of Phillida when you should be talking

:37:45.:37:51.

about the economy? -- why should you spend time talking about the

:37:51.:37:56.

background of your leader? We are in the fight of our lives. That's

:37:56.:37:58.

what the Shadow Scottish Secretary Margaret Curran told conference

:37:58.:38:01.

this morning and that only Labour could prevent the breakup of the

:38:01.:38:03.

United Kingdom and Scotland becoming independent. Labour are by

:38:03.:38:06.

far the biggest of the unionist parties and are leading the cross-

:38:06.:38:09.

party campaign to defeat the SNP's referendum on the question of

:38:09.:38:14.

independence which is likely to be held in 2014. Here's more of what

:38:14.:38:16.

Margaret Curran and Johann Lamont the leader of the Scottish Labour

:38:16.:38:25.

Party said to conference. We cannot afford to listen to those who said

:38:25.:38:30.

the answers to the Scottish problems is to build a wall around

:38:30.:38:34.

ourselves. The strength to overcome the challenges of our time come

:38:34.:38:40.

from binding together, not breaking apart. That is as true of the

:38:40.:38:46.

challenge we face as an Asian as cities of those we face in our

:38:46.:38:52.

families, our towns and our cities. -- as a nation. That is what

:38:52.:38:57.

separates us from the Tories and the SNP. Whether we are talking

:38:57.:39:01.

about improving skills come at raising living standards or

:39:01.:39:05.

deciding how we govern ourselves, we are led by one simple truth. By

:39:05.:39:09.

the strength of our common endeavour, we achieve more together

:39:09.:39:15.

than we achieve alone. This is not just a slogan that is written on

:39:15.:39:19.

our membership cards. It is a truce that is within our hearts. We

:39:19.:39:24.

believe it, we live by it, and, if we are honoured with the confidence

:39:24.:39:28.

of the Scottish people at the next election, we intend to govern by it.

:39:28.:39:34.

We are in the fight of our lives was up in 2014, Scotland faces a

:39:34.:39:41.

decision about whether or not to break up Britain. A decision would

:39:41.:39:45.

consequences for every Scot and every person across these islands.

:39:45.:39:49.

In the years that followed, we will have to fight again when we faced

:39:49.:39:55.

UK and Scottish general elections. On the one side, two parties a play

:39:55.:40:00.

the politics of division. On the other side, the Labour Party, that

:40:00.:40:04.

sees the strength in all of us to work together and succeed. It is

:40:04.:40:08.

wonderful to be here in Manchester and to remember this is not a

:40:08.:40:15.

foreign country. To people -- the people of this city face the same

:40:15.:40:19.

challenges as the people across the whole of Scotland. It is wonderful

:40:19.:40:23.

to be proud of being part of a Labour and trade union movement

:40:23.:40:28.

which speaks up for people across the whole of the United Kingdom. It

:40:28.:40:32.

speaks to a truce. It speaks to a truce that politics is about what

:40:33.:40:38.

you choose to be and what you choose to aspire to. It is not

:40:38.:40:42.

defined by way you are born but it is defined by what you want to do

:40:42.:40:46.

for the people of this country. The Labour and trade union movement

:40:46.:40:51.

will always speak up for those who need their voices to be heard.

:40:51.:40:54.

Conference, at Scottish Labour is not afraid to be honest with the

:40:54.:41:00.

people of Scotland. Not afraid to expose Alex Salmond and his tartan

:41:00.:41:05.

Tories, he tried to wear Arab clothing, while punishing people

:41:05.:41:13.

they should be protecting. -- our clothing. The SNP might not have

:41:13.:41:19.

the courage to be straight with Scottish people but we do. What

:41:19.:41:23.

Alex Salmond is doing with the Scottish finances is the equivalent

:41:23.:41:28.

of putting the Gas Bill in the draw. We have all done it - not opened a

:41:28.:41:34.

bill because we fear the consequences. We stuff it away and

:41:34.:41:40.

the reminder and but by no notice. We know that never ends well. He

:41:40.:41:44.

hopes we are not ask the tough questions about independence and he

:41:44.:41:48.

is desperate we do not ask the tough questions of the here and now.

:41:48.:41:54.

He knows that every Scottish family is bearing the cost of his slogans.

:41:54.:42:01.

We all know that his budget will go bust. He hopes that somehow he can

:42:01.:42:05.

keep the truth from the Scottish people until after the referendum.

:42:05.:42:09.

I will not wait until after the referendum to be honest with the

:42:09.:42:14.

people of Scotland. We need an honest debate now about how we

:42:15.:42:20.

protect the most abominable from the cats. Not everyone is going to

:42:20.:42:26.

like the solutions. -- the most vulnerable from the cuts. I'll be

:42:26.:42:31.

true to Labour values that we will not allow those who most need our

:42:31.:42:36.

support to pay the price for populist slogans. If we are to

:42:36.:42:39.

assure the elderly get help and support it is our duty to give them,

:42:39.:42:44.

we will have to ensure that those who have give to the have-nots. If

:42:44.:42:48.

we up to make sure the potential of not one of our children is lost,

:42:48.:42:53.

that means those with plenty must share for the common good. If

:42:53.:42:59.

Scotland stands for anything, it is community. We, in Scottish Labour,

:42:59.:43:04.

will put that community together, to stand as one and reject the

:43:04.:43:09.

attempts by Alex Salmond to divide our society. The Labour Party

:43:09.:43:13.

fights for the poor and the bar honourable. The Labour Party fights

:43:13.:43:20.

for the strong and, together, the Labour Party in every part of the

:43:20.:43:25.

United Kingdom to rebuild our nations and rebuild our communities.

:43:25.:43:31.

Thank you, conference. That was Johann Lamont at the party

:43:31.:43:35.

conference. What other numbers at the moment in terms of this

:43:35.:43:41.

referendum on independence? numbers have not really changed.

:43:41.:43:45.

Long-term studies show that support for independence there is between

:43:45.:43:53.

around the quarter and about 35%. - - berries. It has been remarkably

:43:53.:43:57.

static. Nothing has really changed. The campaign has been under way for

:43:58.:44:05.

some time. It is not heading -- edging towards the majority. It all

:44:05.:44:11.

depends on what happens in 2014, the date of the referendum. It

:44:11.:44:18.

depends whether it is one question, two questions, are staged process,

:44:18.:44:23.

whatever it is, we will be sure that it will mean another five

:44:23.:44:29.

years of the yoke of Conservative rule for freedom, sunny uplands,

:44:29.:44:33.

self-determination. So far, the Scottish public do not seem

:44:33.:44:40.

convinced. It will be again the economy, when to it? Johann Lamont

:44:40.:44:46.

will try to set out the fact that Scotland, they feel, will be worse

:44:46.:44:51.

separate from the rest of the United Kingdom and together.

:44:51.:44:56.

will raise great fears. You cannot be be changed candidate - the

:44:56.:45:00.

change message when everything is against you and people are

:45:00.:45:05.

frightened. It is very hard to see any campaign, however brilliant,

:45:05.:45:15.
:45:15.:45:18.

overcoming an almost two to one 90 minutes before Mr Miliband takes

:45:18.:45:23.

the stage for his speech. We are back at 2:00pm on BBC Two for the

:45:23.:45:28.

build-up. As part of that, we are joined by Sadiq Kahn. Welcome to

:45:28.:45:31.

the programme. I hope that you can hear me all right. Are we coming

:45:31.:45:36.

through loud and clear? Loud and clear. We really missed you in

:45:36.:45:42.

Manchester, we were devastated yet that you are not here in person.

:45:42.:45:48.

Let's see if you say that after this interview. Mr Miliband... I

:45:48.:45:52.

can buy in the earpiece, if it gets tough. I think we had that before!

:45:52.:45:55.

Mr Miliband is claiming that because he went to a comprehensive

:45:56.:46:00.

school, he is in touch with ordinary people. Logically, that

:46:00.:46:05.

means that Tony Blair, Harriet Harman, Jack Straw, Ed Balls, Chuka

:46:05.:46:08.

Umunna, Clement Attlee, they were not in touch with ordinary people,

:46:08.:46:15.

the way that Mr Miliband is? Now, look, Ed's link with ordinary

:46:15.:46:19.

people is not because of his education. It is because of what he

:46:19.:46:24.

believes in, what he does now as a person. But the importance of his

:46:24.:46:28.

education is that it defines who he is. It's his life experiences that

:46:28.:46:32.

dictate why he is so passionate about vocational training. He

:46:32.:46:36.

remembers his mates that were not good at doing exams, thrown on the

:46:36.:46:40.

scrapheap. That is what motivates him. It is part of what he is. It's

:46:40.:46:44.

relevant and important to talk about his back story. He is

:46:44.:46:47.

claiming, and he does in his party political broadcast, that because

:46:47.:46:52.

he has been to a comprehensive he has a special connection with

:46:52.:46:56.

ordinary people that these public school kids, including a Labour

:46:56.:47:00.

public school kids, don't. If it doesn't mean that, it doesn't mean

:47:00.:47:06.

anything? Look, I know you have been to an ordinary state school, a

:47:06.:47:10.

local comprehensive, you make mates from all sorts of different

:47:10.:47:13.

backgrounds. You understand challenges that you do of not face.

:47:13.:47:19.

If you come from a stable home, but your mate does not, you get empathy.

:47:19.:47:22.

When you grow up to be a politician, you get to understand more about

:47:22.:47:28.

your constituents, the challenges that families have around the

:47:28.:47:32.

country. I think what it is doing in today's speech is telling the

:47:32.:47:37.

country who he is, where his family came from, his early life, why it

:47:37.:47:41.

is important to who he is today. But it's a bit of an insult to the

:47:41.:47:45.

British people to try to bake out that Mr Miliband is just one of

:47:45.:47:50.

them, an ordinary British person. You and I know he is as much as

:47:50.:47:55.

part of the elite as Mr Cameron, just a different elite. How many

:47:55.:48:00.

kids of his age went home after school to socialist dinner-parties

:48:00.:48:08.

with Tony Benn and Tariq Ali? Did you? One of the criticisms that you

:48:08.:48:11.

and others make is that the country doesn't know enough about Ed

:48:11.:48:16.

Miliband. That is the reason why, Ed is trying to tell the country

:48:16.:48:21.

about himself. But he's not giving us the true picture, he is giving

:48:21.:48:24.

as a distorted picture that he is one of the boys. From his

:48:24.:48:29.

background, his father, his dining companions, he is North London

:48:29.:48:36.

Labour aristocracy. If you go to the sort of school that Ed went to,

:48:36.:48:39.

many of your viewers went to, you have a different life experience to

:48:39.:48:44.

someone at a public school. That is a fact. We're not going to

:48:44.:48:47.

caricature or Ed based on his education. We are going to tell the

:48:47.:48:52.

country about the importance that was to who he is. He understands

:48:52.:48:54.

the challenges that young people face today. He understands that if

:48:54.:48:59.

you don't get a job at 16 or 17, there is a danger you're thrown on

:48:59.:49:02.

the scrapheap. He understands that some people are good at exams, so

:49:02.:49:06.

they go to the best universities, nothing against that, but some

:49:06.:49:11.

people don't. He emphasises with people who do not. That is why he

:49:11.:49:14.

is passionate about changing the way we treat people that don't go

:49:14.:49:19.

to good universities that want to get vocational training. If that is

:49:19.:49:23.

the raison d'etre of the Labour Party, how come, after 30 years of

:49:23.:49:30.

Labour government, at Mr Mellor and's comprehensive, Haverstock,

:49:30.:49:35.

52% failed to get 5 decent GCSEs? Not good enough, and we should be

:49:36.:49:42.

doing better. That is appalling. There were more people doing better

:49:42.:49:47.

up at school in 2010 than 9097. But the progress that should have been

:49:47.:49:51.

made was not made. There were people going to university in 2010

:49:51.:49:54.

that would not in 1997. There were all people doing apprenticeships.

:49:54.:50:01.

But you are right to criticise us for not doing enough. So we need to

:50:01.:50:05.

learn what we did right and what we did not get right as well. That is

:50:05.:50:08.

why we need to make up those things that we did not get right as we

:50:08.:50:13.

should have done. Do you think emphasising that he went to a

:50:13.:50:17.

comprehensive school, do you think that will mean that more than two

:50:17.:50:22.

out of 10, as the polls show at the moment, will regard him as prime

:50:22.:50:29.

ministerial? I think the wartime people spend listening to Ed, the

:50:29.:50:33.

more they understand about him, the more they will think he was prime-

:50:33.:50:38.

ministerial. Did you go home to dinner with Tony Benn and Tariq Ali,

:50:38.:50:42.

as a kid? I think I would have preferred to be in my a playground,

:50:42.:50:47.

and having supper with those guys. Maybe that does make you normal.

:50:47.:50:51.

But it was not the experience of your leader.

:50:51.:50:55.

I am glad you could hear us. That's for joining us. I am glad that you

:50:55.:51:00.

are missing me. Aloft, aloft. Please come back next year. -- a

:51:00.:51:06.

He did sound genuine, even after the interview.

:51:06.:51:10.

Not log until the Labour leader gets to his feet. You can watch it

:51:11.:51:14.

here. In the years since Mr Miliband last addressed the

:51:14.:51:19.

conference we have learned about prey distribution, predators and

:51:19.:51:22.

producers. It is like being in one of his Harvard lectures.

:51:22.:51:32.
:51:32.:51:42.

This time last year, few people thought Ed Miliband was on the road

:51:42.:51:45.

to Downing Street. If you had said the words Prime Minister Ed

:51:45.:51:50.

Miliband, many MPs, including Labour MPs, would have giggled. Few

:51:50.:51:54.

are laughing today. The idea has been taken seriously as a

:51:54.:52:01.

possibility and, by some, as probability. So, what has changed?

:52:01.:52:06.

His predator and producing speech at the conference was an important

:52:06.:52:09.

restatement of social democracy, yet was widely mocked because he

:52:09.:52:13.

failed to adequately explain what he meant. Are you on the side of

:52:13.:52:18.

the wealth creator or the asset strippers? The producers or the

:52:18.:52:22.

predators? Producers trained, invest, invent, sell. Things

:52:22.:52:27.

Britain does brilliantly. But not enough. Predators are just

:52:27.:52:37.
:52:37.:52:43.

interested in the fast buck, taking But, since then, he has motored. He

:52:43.:52:51.

headed the convoy, calling for Sir Fred Goodwin to be reduced to plain

:52:51.:52:56.

old Fred the Shred. He accelerated, by demanding that the State Bank of

:52:56.:52:59.

Stephen Hester must not withdraw a huge bonus. There is no question

:52:59.:53:03.

that Stephen Hester has done a decent job. But you don't just need

:53:03.:53:07.

to do a decent job to get a �1 million bonus when everybody else

:53:07.:53:12.

is having living standards hit. hit top speed by a demanding that

:53:12.:53:15.

Bob Diamond of Barbara Barclays account be closed over the rate

:53:15.:53:20.

fixing scandal. I don't believe the current leadership of Barclays can

:53:21.:53:25.

take it to the current crisis. They have presided over a culture in

:53:25.:53:29.

which this behaviour happened. his biggest breakthrough was from a

:53:29.:53:36.

stroke of political luck. George Osborne's half baked pasty tax

:53:36.:53:40.

budget, a gift for Labour, as well as for millionaires. Let's have

:53:40.:53:44.

some tax transparency. Hands up in the Cabinet if you are going to

:53:44.:53:53.

benefit from the income tax cut. Come on! The undermining of the

:53:53.:53:56.

coalition's we are all in this together justification for

:53:56.:54:01.

austerity was a windfall for Labour. The party did well in May's local

:54:01.:54:04.

elections. They were winning councils even in the south of

:54:04.:54:14.
:54:14.:54:14.

England. Government shambles and big Labour poll Leeds saw a newly

:54:14.:54:17.

confident Ed Miliband confront David Cameron at Prime Ministers

:54:17.:54:21.

questions, bashing the MP over his links to the Murdoch empire. When

:54:22.:54:25.

he refuses to come clean on his and the Chancellor's meetings with

:54:25.:54:27.

Rupert Murdoch, the shadow war sleaze will hang over this

:54:27.:54:32.

government. He also came up that a good line to deflect Tory attacks

:54:32.:54:36.

of Labour's links to the unions during the public service pensions

:54:36.:54:40.

rights. The difference is, unlike him, I'm not going to demonise the

:54:40.:54:48.

dinner lady, the Clean Air, the nurse. -- cleaner. People who earn

:54:48.:54:52.

in a week what the Chancellor pays for his annual skiing holiday.

:54:52.:54:56.

has freshened up his top team, promoting bright new faces such as

:54:56.:55:02.

Chuka Umunna, the shadow Business Secretary, and they shadow Treasury

:55:02.:55:08.

brain Rachel Reeves, both untarnished by the Blair-Brown

:55:08.:55:18.

Yet doubts continue to persist about Miliband. He likes his party

:55:18.:55:24.

in the polls and, two and-a-half years is a long, winding, potholed

:55:24.:55:31.

road in politics. Opponents exploit tensions between Ed Miliband and Ed

:55:31.:55:39.

Balls. The mocking odd Ed jibes no longer sting. His job is not under

:55:39.:55:44.

threat, as it was last year. But what would Labour do in power and

:55:44.:55:48.

who is Ed Miliband? Quite a lot of people seem not to know. I hope

:55:48.:55:53.

that we will get David... I hope that we will get Ed Miliband

:55:53.:55:57.

elected as Prime Minister. This deal is far from sealed. An

:55:57.:56:03.

unsealed deal can be reversed. Stephan Shakespeare, if you look

:56:03.:56:12.

back at the year, we saw their clips of things like Rupert Murdoch,

:56:12.:56:17.

Ed Miliband's response on bank as bonuses, have those things actually

:56:17.:56:22.

helped improve his ratings, or the party ratings? Have they worked?

:56:22.:56:27.

think they have. If you look at the monthly polling, you see his

:56:27.:56:31.

numbers going up. They are still buyer, let's not forget. But

:56:31.:56:35.

they're going up, month-by-month. - - they are still dire. He is doing

:56:35.:56:40.

that, by attacking the Government. That is the money shot, as it were.

:56:40.:56:48.

It is not by biggie himself up, it is attacking the Government. They

:56:48.:56:51.

have seen that and they like that. He wins there, there might be

:56:51.:56:56.

little spikes in his favour. But what Stephan Shakespeare is saying

:56:56.:57:00.

that he needs to do more to say what Labour would do, what he would

:57:00.:57:05.

do and what it would mean. Does that come through? It does. For

:57:05.:57:09.

Labour to do better, it requires two things. Firstly, they have got

:57:09.:57:14.

to be clearer about what they stand for, what they would do and, also,

:57:14.:57:17.

how they have learned the lessons of the past. They don't just appear

:57:17.:57:21.

in a vacuum. Though it has come to this with the baggage of what

:57:21.:57:26.

happened in 2008 and 2010, how Labour left the coffers. The other

:57:26.:57:30.

thing that they can do is explore it those opportunities that the

:57:30.:57:34.

Conservatives have given them. The most significant one of the last 12

:57:34.:57:38.

months has been the budget, which was calamitous. You saw the Tory

:57:38.:57:42.

polls just go down. And they haven't really recovered. George

:57:42.:57:45.

Osborne's ratings have not recovered. They did try to

:57:45.:57:48.

capitalise. But they did not capitalise enough in terms of

:57:48.:57:52.

sustained poll ratings? That is where I disagree with Andrew. I

:57:52.:57:56.

don't think it is about what Labour would do instead. It's two and-a-

:57:56.:57:59.

half years out. They've got a lot of time to build up the policy

:57:59.:58:04.

front. They need to get the bashing of the Conservatives, over and over

:58:04.:58:09.

again. That is what a score. People are feeling frustrated, they are

:58:09.:58:13.

expected, in opposition, to do that. It's quite interesting. Bennett is

:58:13.:58:18.

a case of timing. That is where the debate lies. Should it be more

:58:18.:58:23.

conservative bashing or should it be more about themselves? But you

:58:23.:58:27.

don't have time to answer. Say goodbye! Thanks to both of you. The

:58:28.:58:32.

One o'clock News is starting on BBC One in a moment. Don't forget to

:58:32.:58:36.

switch back because we will be here in an hour on BBC Two to bring you

:58:36.:58:40.

live and uninterrupted coverage of Ed Miliband's conference speech. We

:58:40.:58:43.

are going to get ready for that. It's only an hour. We have taken a

:58:44.:58:47.

leaf out of Ed Balls book. He said he prepared for his speech at the

:58:47.:58:51.

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn with the latest political news and interviews from Westminster and Labour conference in Manchester, including former cabinet minister Dame Tessa Jowell. The Guess the Conference Year competition closes at 1pm during the live broadcast of this programme.


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