07/03/2013 Daily Politics

Daily Politics. David Cameron wants Daily Politics. David Cameron wants

Daily Politics. David Cameron wants Daily Politics. David Cameron wants

Daily Politics. David Cameron wants to stick to plan a. He thinks it is

to stick to plan a. He thinks it is to stick to plan a. He thinks it is

beginning to work and the economy beginning to work and the economy

beginning to work and the economy beginning to work and the economy

will pick up, honest. If only his will pick up, honest. If only his

coalition partner, Business coalition partner, Business

coalition partner, Business Secretary Vince Cable for the same.

Secretary Vince Cable for the same. Secretary Vince Cable for the same.

Secretary Vince Cable for the same. He appears to be demanding plan B

He appears to be demanding plan B He appears to be demanding plan B

Ashmore investment in industry, paid Ashmore investment in industry, paid

for by more borrowing. for by more borrowing.

for by more borrowing. Labour try to seize the immigration

Labour try to seize the immigration Labour try to seize the immigration

initiative. We have trawled the Home initiative. We have trawled the Home

initiative. We have trawled the Home Secretary's speech for a major

Secretary's speech for a major Secretary's speech for a major

announcement, but we have yet to announcement, but we have yet to

find anything new. find anything new.

find anything new. It is a bread-and-butter issue and

It is a bread-and-butter issue and It is a bread-and-butter issue and

all the political parties appear to all the political parties appear to

all the political parties appear to all the political parties appear to

want a slice of the action. We will want a slice of the action. We will

want a slice of the action. We will want a slice of the action. We will

be talking about the 10p tax rate. be talking about the 10p tax rate.

be talking about the 10p tax rate. And forget London, Paris, Milan. If

And forget London, Paris, Milan. If And forget London, Paris, Milan. If

And forget London, Paris, Milan. If you want a glimpse of next season's

you want a glimpse of next season's you want a glimpse of next season's

coat could sure, come to coat could sure, come to

coat could sure, come to Westminster. We will be talking

Westminster. We will be talking Westminster. We will be talking

Westminster. We will be talking about the highs and lows of the

political catwalk. political catwalk.

political catwalk. political catwalk.

All that in the next hour, and with All that in the next hour, and with

All that in the next hour, and with us for the duration, former Home

us for the duration, former Home Secretary, former health secretary,

Secretary, former health secretary, Secretary, former health secretary,

former Work and Pensions Secretary, former Work and Pensions Secretary,

former Work and Pensions Secretary, former trade and industry secretary,

former trade and industry secretary, former trade and industry secretary,

former education secretary and he former education secretary and he

former education secretary and he former education secretary and he

even bag is the job as former Shadow even bag is the job as former Shadow

even bag is the job as former Shadow Chancellor. No wonder an opponent

Chancellor. No wonder an opponent Chancellor. No wonder an opponent

Chancellor. No wonder an opponent was so high! You were doing it all.

was so high! You were doing it all. was so high! You were doing it all.

Welcome, Alan Johnson. Good to see Welcome, Alan Johnson. Good to see

Welcome, Alan Johnson. Good to see Welcome, Alan Johnson. Good to see

you in daylight. You are on again you in daylight. You are on again

you in daylight. You are on again later tonight. If you have forgotten

later tonight. If you have forgotten later tonight. If you have forgotten

what a talented education secretary what a talented education secretary

what a talented education secretary what a talented education secretary

Alan was, take a look at him in Alan was, take a look at him in

Alan was, take a look at him in Alan was, take a look at him in

action. # P's taking us to the zoo action. # P's taking us to the zoo

action. # P's taking us to the zoo action. # P's taking us to the zoo

tomorrow, we are going to stay all tomorrow, we are going to stay all

tomorrow, we are going to stay all tomorrow, we are going to stay all

tomorrow, we are going to stay all day. # we are going to the zoo, zoo,

day. # we are going to the zoo, zoo, day. # we are going to the zoo, zoo,

day. # we are going to the zoo, zoo, zoo. # how about you, you, you? You

zoo. # how about you, you, you? You zoo. # how about you, you, you? You

zoo. # how about you, you, you? You are a great audience. That was part

are a great audience. That was part are a great audience. That was part

are a great audience. That was part of my deputy leadership. I just did

of my deputy leadership. I just did of my deputy leadership. I just did

of my deputy leadership. I just did that once in Hull. You are obviously

that once in Hull. You are obviously that once in Hull. You are obviously

multitalented. But can you answer multitalented. But can you answer

multitalented. But can you answer these questions is? Lots of talk

these questions is? Lots of talk these questions is? Lots of talk

about the NHS Chief Executive, Sir about the NHS Chief Executive, Sir

about the NHS Chief Executive, Sir David Nicholson. Why are you backing

David Nicholson. Why are you backing David Nicholson. Why are you backing

David Nicholson. Why are you backing him and not calling for him to step

him and not calling for him to step him and not calling for him to step

down? Firstly because there was a down? Firstly because there was a

down? Firstly because there was a public enquiry which took three

public enquiry which took three public enquiry which took three

years, produced 2-macro volumes and years, produced 2-macro volumes and

years, produced 2-macro volumes and years, produced 2-macro volumes and

not only did not say that David not only did not say that David

Nicholson was responsible, but Nicholson was responsible, but

Nicholson was responsible, but having examined all the conspiracy

having examined all the conspiracy having examined all the conspiracy

having examined all the conspiracy theories, had him in the dock for 11

theories, had him in the dock for 11 theories, had him in the dock for 11

theories, had him in the dock for 11 theories, had him in the dock for 11

hours in front of a QC, it said it hours in front of a QC, it said it

hours in front of a QC, it said it would be wrong to scapegoat anyone

would be wrong to scapegoat anyone would be wrong to scapegoat anyone

over what happened at Stafford. He over what happened at Stafford. He

over what happened at Stafford. He said there were wider lessons for

said there were wider lessons for said there were wider lessons for

said there were wider lessons for the NHS. I was Home Secretary at the

the NHS. I was Home Secretary at the the NHS. I was Home Secretary at the

time and what happened there was time and what happened there was

time and what happened there was time and what happened there was

incredible and it was not what was incredible and it was not what was

incredible and it was not what was happening in the NHS generally.

happening in the NHS generally. happening in the NHS generally.

what about the families of the what about the families of the

what about the families of the victims who suffered during that

victims who suffered during that victims who suffered during that

time? Is there no accountability at time? Is there no accountability at

time? Is there no accountability at the top? If you oversee an

the top? If you oversee an the top? If you oversee an

organisation that is to blame, organisation that is to blame,

organisation that is to blame, whether the individuals are, for the

whether the individuals are, for the whether the individuals are, for the

deaths of hundreds, surely you take deaths of hundreds, surely you take

deaths of hundreds, surely you take deaths of hundreds, surely you take

the rap is Mac no, I don't think the rap is Mac no, I don't think

the rap is Mac no, I don't think the rap is Mac no, I don't think

that is the case. We had three that is the case. We had three

that is the case. We had three enquiries, but the families wanted a

enquiries, but the families wanted a enquiries, but the families wanted a

full public enquiry under the public full public enquiry under the public

full public enquiry under the public enquiries act. We can't just spend

enquiries act. We can't just spend enquiries act. We can't just spend

enquiries act. We can't just spend the money on that and then ignore it

the money on that and then ignore it the money on that and then ignore it

the money on that and then ignore it or have a trial by media. For the

or have a trial by media. For the or have a trial by media. For the

families, people keep talking about families, people keep talking about

families, people keep talking about the number of avoidable deaths. What

the number of avoidable deaths. What the number of avoidable deaths. What

the number of avoidable deaths. What David Nicholson helped me to do was

David Nicholson helped me to do was David Nicholson helped me to do was

David Nicholson helped me to do was to ensure that every family that was

to ensure that every family that was to ensure that every family that was

worried about what happened to their worried about what happened to their

worried about what happened to their loved one had an individual session

loved one had an individual session loved one had an individual session

with a clinician. 200 families took with a clinician. 200 families took

with a clinician. 200 families took with a clinician. 200 families took

part in that. You bandy about this part in that. You bandy about this

part in that. You bandy about this part in that. You bandy about this

figure as if they were killed by the figure as if they were killed by the

figure as if they were killed by the figure as if they were killed by the

NHS, but the mortality ratio is a NHS, but the mortality ratio is a

NHS, but the mortality ratio is a statistic that denotes a whole

statistic that denotes a whole statistic that denotes a whole

series of thing. It suggests that series of thing. It suggests that

series of thing. It suggests that there are problems, but does not

there are problems, but does not there are problems, but does not

suggest that all those people died suggest that all those people died

suggest that all those people died unnecessarily. So it was important

unnecessarily. So it was important unnecessarily. So it was important

unnecessarily. So it was important for the families to have access to

for the families to have access to for the families to have access to

the case notes of every bejewelled. the case notes of every bejewelled.

the case notes of every bejewelled. the case notes of every bejewelled.

Has your party become lazy as far as Has your party become lazy as far as

Has your party become lazy as far as the next election is concerned, as

the next election is concerned, as the next election is concerned, as

the next election is concerned, as your colleague Jim Murphy has had?

your colleague Jim Murphy has had? your colleague Jim Murphy has had?

your colleague Jim Murphy has had? think what Jim is saying is right,

think what Jim is saying is right, think what Jim is saying is right,

that we must not be complacent. that we must not be complacent.

that we must not be complacent. that we must not be complacent.

There is a school of thought that it There is a school of thought that it

There is a school of thought that it would be impossible for Cameron to

would be impossible for Cameron to would be impossible for Cameron to

win the next general election, given win the next general election, given

win the next general election, given that every sitting by Minister never

that every sitting by Minister never that every sitting by Minister never

increases their vote at the next increases their vote at the next

increases their vote at the next election. That did not do that,

election. That did not do that, election. That did not do that,

election. That did not do that, Blair did not do that, and Cameron

Blair did not do that, and Cameron Blair did not do that, and Cameron

has to make up five percentage has to make up five percentage

has to make up five percentage has to make up five percentage

points. But what about the sense of points. But what about the sense of

points. But what about the sense of entitlement Jim Murphy is talking

entitlement Jim Murphy is talking entitlement Jim Murphy is talking

about? Is the party complacent in about? Is the party complacent in

about? Is the party complacent in about? Is the party complacent in

areas of the country where they feel areas of the country where they feel

areas of the country where they feel areas of the country where they feel

they don't have to make an effort? they don't have to make an effort?

they don't have to make an effort? they don't have to make an effort?

hope not. I go round the country a hope not. I go round the country a

hope not. I go round the country a lot. I have a meeting tomorrow

lot. I have a meeting tomorrow lot. I have a meeting tomorrow

lot. I have a meeting tomorrow evening in Norfolk. I don't get a

evening in Norfolk. I don't get a evening in Norfolk. I don't get a

evening in Norfolk. I don't get a sense of complacency, I get a sense

sense of complacency, I get a sense sense of complacency, I get a sense

sense of complacency, I get a sense that we are more a party of

that we are more a party of that we are more a party of

that we are more a party of government than we were in 1979. We

government than we were in 1979. We government than we were in 1979. We

are not tearing ourselves to are not tearing ourselves to

pieces, we have ministerial pieces, we have ministerial

pieces, we have ministerial pieces, we have ministerial

experience and want to get back into experience and want to get back into

experience and want to get back into government as soon as possible.

government as soon as possible. government as soon as possible.

government as soon as possible. government as soon as possible.

you want to get back in? I am not you want to get back in? I am not

you want to get back in? I am not straining at the leash. I am

straining at the leash. I am straining at the leash. I am

enjoying life on the backbenches. enjoying life on the backbenches.

enjoying life on the backbenches. enjoying life on the backbenches.

There aren't any jobs left for you There aren't any jobs left for you

There aren't any jobs left for you There aren't any jobs left for you

to do! And on the This Week benches. to do! And on the This Week benches.

to do! And on the This Week benches. Is the one nation message getting

Is the one nation message getting Is the one nation message getting

through? It was a brilliant speech, through? It was a brilliant speech,

through? It was a brilliant speech, through? It was a brilliant speech,

and the idea to say, there are 197 and the idea to say, there are 197

and the idea to say, there are 197 and the idea to say, there are 197

seat is we need to win outside seat is we need to win outside

seat is we need to win outside seat is we need to win outside

London and we behold ten of them, London and we behold ten of them,

London and we behold ten of them, London and we behold ten of them,

this one nation message must be part this one nation message must be part

this one nation message must be part this one nation message must be part

of this. It did not get through in of this. It did not get through in

of this. It did not get through in Eastleigh. We were never going to

Eastleigh. We were never going to Eastleigh. We were never going to

win Eastleigh. Maybe not, but were win Eastleigh. Maybe not, but were

win Eastleigh. Maybe not, but were they saying one nation Labour?

they saying one nation Labour? they saying one nation Labour?

they saying one nation Labour? were the only party to increase our

were the only party to increase our were the only party to increase our

were the only party to increase our share of the vote. By 0.2%! Should

share of the vote. By 0.2%! Should share of the vote. By 0.2%! Should

share of the vote. By 0.2%! Should Ed Balls go? It has been said that

Ed Balls go? It has been said that Ed Balls go? It has been said that

Ed Balls go? It has been said that he is too tainted by the past, and

he is too tainted by the past, and he is too tainted by the past, and

he is too tainted by the past, and that would help the poll ratings.

that would help the poll ratings. that would help the poll ratings.

that would help the poll ratings. would not go along with that. What

would not go along with that. What would not go along with that. What

Ed Balls said in the Bloomberg Ed Balls said in the Bloomberg

Ed Balls said in the Bloomberg speech was right. I remember

speech was right. I remember speech was right. I remember

Geoffrey Howe, as that Japan's Mike Geoffrey Howe, as that Japan's Mike

Geoffrey Howe, as that Japan's Mike Shadow Chancellor, was not popular

Shadow Chancellor, was not popular either. Shadow Chancellor's don't

either. Shadow Chancellor's don't either. Shadow Chancellor's don't

either. Shadow Chancellor's don't have to be popular. So go now, come

have to be popular. So go now, come have to be popular. So go now, come

back in 2016? That would be ridiculous.

ridiculous. ridiculous.

ridiculous. I have been told. Now, time for our

I have been told. Now, time for our I have been told. Now, time for our

I have been told. Now, time for our daily quiz. It was the hot topic at

daily quiz. It was the hot topic at Prime Minister's Questions

Prime Minister's Questions Prime Minister's Questions

Prime Minister's Questions yesterday, so let's find out if our

yesterday, so let's find out if our yesterday, so let's find out if our

guest was paying attention. Can you guest was paying attention. Can you

guest was paying attention. Can you guest was paying attention. Can you

tell us which of these is the odd tell us which of these is the odd

tell us which of these is the odd tell us which of these is the odd

one out? Is it the bedroom tax, the one out? Is it the bedroom tax, the

one out? Is it the bedroom tax, the spare room subsidy, the study

spare room subsidy, the study spare room subsidy, the study

surcharge or social housing under surcharge or social housing under

surcharge or social housing under surcharge or social housing under

occupancy policy? At the end of the occupancy policy? At the end of the

occupancy policy? At the end of the occupancy policy? At the end of the

show, Alan Johnson will give us the correct answer.

correct answer. correct answer.

correct answer. I do know the answer. Anyway, while

I do know the answer. Anyway, while I do know the answer. Anyway, while

I do know the answer. Anyway, while we have been on air, the Bank of

we have been on air, the Bank of we have been on air, the Bank of

England is reporting that interest England is reporting that interest

England is reporting that interest rates will remain unchanged at 0.5

rates will remain unchanged at 0.5 rates will remain unchanged at 0.5

rates will remain unchanged at 0.5 cent. It is the lowest since the

cent. It is the lowest since the cent. It is the lowest since the

cent. It is the lowest since the Bank of England was founded. That is

Bank of England was founded. That is Bank of England was founded. That is

not a surprise. It is slightly not a surprise. It is slightly

not a surprise. It is slightly surprising that there was no

surprising that there was no surprising that there was no

announcement about more printing of announcement about more printing of

announcement about more printing of money, quantitative easing. Not this

money, quantitative easing. Not this money, quantitative easing. Not this

month, anyway. It is still an month, anyway. It is still an

month, anyway. It is still an month, anyway. It is still an

argument going on in the Bank of argument going on in the Bank of

England monetary policy committee. England monetary policy committee.

England monetary policy committee. England monetary policy committee.

0.5% again. Now, it is the subject 0.5% again. Now, it is the subject

0.5% again. Now, it is the subject most voters are concerned about, so

most voters are concerned about, so most voters are concerned about, so

obviously politicians don't like to obviously politicians don't like to

obviously politicians don't like to talk honestly about it. But this

talk honestly about it. But this morning, Shadow Home Secretary

morning, Shadow Home Secretary morning, Shadow Home Secretary

Yvette Cooper decided to tackle the Yvette Cooper decided to tackle the

Yvette Cooper decided to tackle the thorny subject of immigration. She

thorny subject of immigration. She thorny subject of immigration. She

wanted to set out Labour's thinking wanted to set out Labour's thinking

wanted to set out Labour's thinking wanted to set out Labour's thinking

and, wait for it, admitted that the and, wait for it, admitted that the

and, wait for it, admitted that the party made mistakes when in power.

party made mistakes when in power. party made mistakes when in power.

party made mistakes when in power. We know Britain cannot and must not

We know Britain cannot and must not We know Britain cannot and must not

plot the drawbridge on the outside plot the drawbridge on the outside

plot the drawbridge on the outside world. We also know that immigration

world. We also know that immigration world. We also know that immigration

world. We also know that immigration needs to work for all, and many in

needs to work for all, and many in needs to work for all, and many in

Britain think it doesn't. Mass Britain think it doesn't. Mass

Britain think it doesn't. Mass migration can cause stresses and

migration can cause stresses and migration can cause stresses and

strains, making it harder for people strains, making it harder for people

strains, making it harder for people to put down roots or build

to put down roots or build to put down roots or build

communities. It can create economic communities. It can create economic

and political tensions when and political tensions when

and political tensions when resources are tight. Labour got

resources are tight. Labour got resources are tight. Labour got

something is wrong on immigration. something is wrong on immigration.

something is wrong on immigration. something is wrong on immigration.

We did tackle many problems in the We did tackle many problems in the

We did tackle many problems in the asylum system that we inherited

asylum system that we inherited asylum system that we inherited

after 1997. We also wrote in after 1997. We also wrote in

after 1997. We also wrote in stronger border checks, but we

stronger border checks, but we stronger border checks, but we

should have been quicker to should have been quicker to

should have been quicker to introduce the Australian style macro

introduce the Australian style macro introduce the Australian style macro

points -based system, and we should points -based system, and we should

points -based system, and we should have kept the transitional controls

have kept the transitional controls have kept the transitional controls

for Eastern Europe. We should also for Eastern Europe. We should also

for Eastern Europe. We should also for Eastern Europe. We should also

have looked at the impact and be have looked at the impact and be

have looked at the impact and be have looked at the impact and be

ready to talk about the problems, so ready to talk about the problems, so

ready to talk about the problems, so ready to talk about the problems, so

we know that needs to change. We we know that needs to change. We

we know that needs to change. We will support the government where it

will support the government where it will support the government where it

brings in sensible policies, and we brings in sensible policies, and we

brings in sensible policies, and we will point out where they are

will point out where they are will point out where they are

getting things wrong. We will not getting things wrong. We will not

getting things wrong. We will not getting things wrong. We will not

enter into an arms race of rhetoric enter into an arms race of rhetoric

enter into an arms race of rhetoric about immigration, and we hope the

about immigration, and we hope the about immigration, and we hope the

prime minister will not either, prime minister will not either,

prime minister will not either, prime minister will not either,

because it is not good for Britain because it is not good for Britain

because it is not good for Britain and it is not honest.

and it is not honest. and it is not honest.

and it is not honest. We are joined now by the immigration

We are joined now by the immigration We are joined now by the immigration

Minister, Mark Harper. It has been Minister, Mark Harper. It has been

Minister, Mark Harper. It has been suggested that you are looking at

suggested that you are looking at suggested that you are looking at

changes to allow councils to give changes to allow councils to give

council housing social housing council housing social housing

council housing social housing priority to local people. It is

priority to local people. It is priority to local people. It is

basically to deter the perception basically to deter the perception

basically to deter the perception that immigrants jump to housing

that immigrants jump to housing that immigrants jump to housing

that immigrants jump to housing queue. Is that true? It is one of

queue. Is that true? It is one of queue. Is that true? It is one of

queue. Is that true? It is one of the things we are looking at. To

the things we are looking at. To the things we are looking at. To

the things we are looking at. To pick up on something in that speech,

pick up on something in that speech, pick up on something in that speech,

pick up on something in that speech, we did not hear an apology for the

we did not hear an apology for the we did not hear an apology for the

mistakes Labour made. They did not mistakes Labour made. They did not

mistakes Labour made. They did not hand over an immigration system in

hand over an immigration system in hand over an immigration system in

good control. They handed over 5000 good control. They handed over 5000

good control. They handed over 5000 good control. They handed over 5000

asylum cases that we had to work asylum cases that we had to work

asylum cases that we had to work through. We had net migration

through. We had net migration through. We had net migration

through. We had net migration running at over 200 thousand a year

running at over 200 thousand a year running at over 200 thousand a year

running at over 200 thousand a year for a 10-year period. We have now

for a 10-year period. We have now for a 10-year period. We have now

for a 10-year period. We have now seen net migration for by a third in

seen net migration for by a third in seen net migration for by a third in

seen net migration for by a third in two years. She has backed none of

two years. She has backed none of two years. She has backed none of

two years. She has backed none of our changes. Let's get back to my

our changes. Let's get back to my our changes. Let's get back to my

questions. What will happen with the questions. What will happen with the

questions. What will happen with the residency trust? -- residency test?

residency trust? -- residency test? residency trust? -- residency test?

residency trust? -- residency test? Last week, as I said, we have a

Last week, as I said, we have a Last week, as I said, we have a

committee of ministers across the committee of ministers across the

committee of ministers across the government. I am chairing that

government. I am chairing that government. I am chairing that

government. I am chairing that group. We are looking at all of

group. We are looking at all of group. We are looking at all of

group. We are looking at all of these policies to look at what we

these policies to look at what we these policies to look at what we

these policies to look at what we offer to migrants, those from the EU

offer to migrants, those from the EU offer to migrants, those from the EU

offer to migrants, those from the EU and outside the EU. What we have

and outside the EU. What we have and outside the EU. What we have

made some decisions, we will made some decisions, we will

made some decisions, we will announce them to Parliament and then

announce them to Parliament and then announce them to Parliament and then

announce them to Parliament and then I will come back on the program and

I will come back on the program and I will come back on the program and

I will come back on the program and discuss them will stop that was only

discuss them will stop that was only discuss them will stop that was only

discuss them will stop that was only discuss them will stop that was only

a week ago, so it is unfair of you a week ago, so it is unfair of you

a week ago, so it is unfair of you a week ago, so it is unfair of you

to expect me to have made decisions to expect me to have made decisions

to expect me to have made decisions in that time. But changing the

in that time. But changing the in that time. But changing the

residency test to deter people from residency test to deter people from

residency test to deter people from coming here is under discussion?

coming here is under discussion? coming here is under discussion?

coming here is under discussion? are looking at it. If you are coming

are looking at it. If you are coming are looking at it. If you are coming

are looking at it. If you are coming here to work, you are then entitled

here to work, you are then entitled here to work, you are then entitled

here to work, you are then entitled to in work benefits. If you lose

to in work benefits. If you lose to in work benefits. If you lose

your job, you can then continue your job, you can then continue

your job, you can then continue your job, you can then continue

claiming them will stop there is a claiming them will stop there is a

claiming them will stop there is a claiming them will stop there is a

debate to be had about how long that debate to be had about how long that

debate to be had about how long that debate continues. The secretary of

debate continues. The secretary of debate continues. The secretary of

state, Iain Duncan Smith, set that state, Iain Duncan Smith, set that

state, Iain Duncan Smith, set that state, Iain Duncan Smith, set that

out in the house. What about the out in the house. What about the

out in the house. What about the idea of a benefits bond for

idea of a benefits bond for idea of a benefits bond for

immigrants where you would be immigrants where you would be

immigrants where you would be immigrants where you would be

entitled to put cash down when you entitled to put cash down when you

entitled to put cash down when you entitled to put cash down when you

came to the UK and you could then came to the UK and you could then

choose the countries these choose the countries these

choose the countries these immigrants came from? We are looking

immigrants came from? We are looking immigrants came from? We are looking

immigrants came from? We are looking at a range of options. I will not

at a range of options. I will not at a range of options. I will not

give you a running commentary on give you a running commentary on

give you a running commentary on give you a running commentary on

every idea that has been put into every idea that has been put into

the newspapers that commentators the newspapers that commentators

the newspapers that commentators have suggested. But are you

have suggested. But are you have suggested. But are you

considering it? We are considering a considering it? We are considering a

considering it? We are considering a range of options. But what about

range of options. But what about range of options. But what about

range of options. But what about that option? You have said you will

that option? You have said you will that option? You have said you will

that option? You have said you will not tell me what the residency test

not tell me what the residency test not tell me what the residency test

not tell me what the residency test will be, but you are looking at it.

will be, but you are looking at it. will be, but you are looking at it.

will be, but you are looking at it. Why can't you tell me whether you

Why can't you tell me whether you Why can't you tell me whether you

Why can't you tell me whether you are looking at a benefit on?

are looking at a benefit on? are looking at a benefit on?

habitual residency test is something habitual residency test is something

habitual residency test is something habitual residency test is something

the secretary of state set out in the secretary of state set out in

the secretary of state set out in Parliament and said we were looking

Parliament and said we were looking Parliament and said we were looking

Parliament and said we were looking at. There are lots of ideas that get

at. There are lots of ideas that get at. There are lots of ideas that get

put forward in newspapers. We are put forward in newspapers. We are

put forward in newspapers. We are put forward in newspapers. We are

looking at a range of options that looking at a range of options that

looking at a range of options that looking at a range of options that

we think might be successful. I am we think might be successful. I am

we think might be successful. I am we think might be successful. I am

not going to go through every idea not going to go through every idea

not going to go through every idea not going to go through every idea

that gets put into a newspaper and that gets put into a newspaper and

that gets put into a newspaper and that gets put into a newspaper and

tell you whether we are going to tell you whether we are going to

tell you whether we are going to tell you whether we are going to

consider it. We will set out our consider it. We will set out our

consider it. We will set out our position one we have made some

position one we have made some position one we have made some

decisions is. The public will then decisions is. The public will then

decisions is. The public will then decisions is. The public will then

decisions is. The public will then see a clear plan to make sure we are

see a clear plan to make sure we are You had been boasting about the

You had been boasting about the You had been boasting about the

next migration figures. It was the next migration figures. It was the

next migration figures. It was the same as when I was Foreign

same as when I was Foreign same as when I was Foreign

same as when I was Foreign Secretary. It was one hand and 79

Secretary. It was one hand and 79 Secretary. It was one hand and 79

Secretary. It was one hand and 79 and then rose to 224,000. That was

and then rose to 224,000. That was and then rose to 224,000. That was

in 2010. Figures announced in 2008, in 2010. Figures announced in 2008,

in 2010. Figures announced in 2008, the year behind, was exactly

the year behind, was exactly the year behind, was exactly

163,000. The figures you have got 163,000. The figures you have got

163,000. The figures you have got 163,000. The figures you have got

up for the next year. No, 2009, I up for the next year. No, 2009, I

up for the next year. No, 2009, I up for the next year. No, 2009, I

have it here. The figures were the have it here. The figures were the

have it here. The figures were the 2008, announced in 2009, was

2008, announced in 2009, was 2008, announced in 2009, was

163,000 net migration. Is it not 163,000 net migration. Is it not

163,000 net migration. Is it not the case when the Romanians and

the case when the Romanians and the case when the Romanians and

Bulgarians are allowed to come here Bulgarians are allowed to come here

Bulgarians are allowed to come here Bulgarians are allowed to come here

at the start of next year, your net at the start of next year, your net

at the start of next year, your net migration figures will be blown to

migration figures will be blown to migration figures will be blown to

smithereens? The answer is, I do smithereens? The answer is, I do

smithereens? The answer is, I do not know. We won't make speculative

not know. We won't make speculative forecasts. Commentators have made

forecasts. Commentators have made forecasts. Commentators have made

speculative forecasts. The big ones speculative forecasts. The big ones

speculative forecasts. The big ones like France, Germany and Spain have

like France, Germany and Spain have like France, Germany and Spain have

transitional controls and they all transitional controls and they all

transitional controls and they all transitional controls and they all

transitional controls and they all have to come off at the end of this

have to come off at the end of this have to come off at the end of this

have to come off at the end of this year. Not just in Britain but in

year. Not just in Britain but in year. Not just in Britain but in

year. Not just in Britain but in those year -- countries as well.

those year -- countries as well. those year -- countries as well.

could reverse the decline? There is could reverse the decline? There is

could reverse the decline? There is no evidence of that. Really?Trying

no evidence of that. Really?Trying no evidence of that. Really?Trying

to make forecasts are like that... to make forecasts are like that...

to make forecasts are like that... to make forecasts are like that...

I am not asking you to make I am not asking you to make

I am not asking you to make forecasts, I said the numbers could

forecasts, I said the numbers could forecasts, I said the numbers could

be big enough to reverse the be big enough to reverse the

be big enough to reverse the be big enough to reverse the

decline. Do you know what the GDP decline. Do you know what the GDP

decline. Do you know what the GDP per Capita is in Romania and

per Capita is in Romania and per Capita is in Romania and

Bulgaria? It is lower than here. Bulgaria? It is lower than here.

Bulgaria? It is lower than here. Bulgaria? It is lower than here.

But so is the cost of living. When But so is the cost of living. When

But so is the cost of living. When you are making decisions about

you are making decisions about you are making decisions about

people moving from one country to people moving from one country to

people moving from one country to another, they take into account, or

another, they take into account, or another, they take into account, or

the labour market and the benefits the labour market and the benefits

the labour market and the benefits the labour market and the benefits

system. We want to make sure that system. We want to make sure that

system. We want to make sure that people don't think that coming to

people don't think that coming to people don't think that coming to

Britain is a way of getting Britain is a way of getting

benefits and getting the benefits and getting the

benefits and getting the opportunity of taking things away

opportunity of taking things away opportunity of taking things away

opportunity of taking things away from the country when you have not

from the country when you have not from the country when you have not

put anything into that. I think put anything into that. I think

put anything into that. I think put anything into that. I think

that is what the public wants us to that is what the public wants us to

that is what the public wants us to that is what the public wants us to

do. From the words from a Yvette do. From the words from a Yvette

do. From the words from a Yvette do. From the words from a Yvette

Cooper and Ed Miliband, is it not Cooper and Ed Miliband, is it not

Cooper and Ed Miliband, is it not Cooper and Ed Miliband, is it not

the case the words to the woman in the case the words to the woman in

the case the words to the woman in Rochdale during the campaign when

Rochdale during the campaign when Rochdale during the campaign when

Rochdale during the campaign when he called her a bigot, that tells

he called her a bigot, that tells he called her a bigot, that tells

us what Labour's real attitude was us what Labour's real attitude was

us what Labour's real attitude was to immigration when you were in

to immigration when you were in to immigration when you were in

to immigration when you were in power? No, it doesn't. It is unfair

power? No, it doesn't. It is unfair power? No, it doesn't. It is unfair

to Gordon Brown. When she said to Gordon Brown. When she said

to Gordon Brown. When she said people were flocking to this

people were flocking to this people were flocking to this

country, Gordon thought she said country, Gordon thought she said

country, Gordon thought she said something similar! If the economy

something similar! If the economy something similar! If the economy

something similar! If the economy gets any worse than it is, if the

gets any worse than it is, if the gets any worse than it is, if the

economy is bad, Mark might succeed economy is bad, Mark might succeed

economy is bad, Mark might succeed economy is bad, Mark might succeed

economy is bad, Mark might succeed - because he has got a target - of

- because he has got a target - of - because he has got a target - of

getting net migration down to tens getting net migration down to tens

getting net migration down to tens getting net migration down to tens

of thousands. He may succeed if the of thousands. He may succeed if the

of thousands. He may succeed if the economy is dreadful. During our

economy is dreadful. During our watch, globalisation meant there

watch, globalisation meant there watch, globalisation meant there

watch, globalisation meant there was a huge shift of people around

was a huge shift of people around was a huge shift of people around

the world, it affected every the world, it affected every

the world, it affected every Western country and we were too

Western country and we were too Western country and we were too

Western country and we were too slow to deal with it. What Mark

slow to deal with it. What Mark slow to deal with it. What Mark

slow to deal with it. What Mark just said it is about taking 13

just said it is about taking 13 just said it is about taking 13

just said it is about taking 13 years on average. At the end of it,

years on average. At the end of it, years on average. At the end of it,

years on average. At the end of it, but points basis to me handed on

but points basis to me handed on but points basis to me handed on

but points basis to me handed on that they have not taken away - it

that they have not taken away - it that they have not taken away - it

that they have not taken away - it that they have not taken away - it

will go up and the you. It went up will go up and the you. It went up

will go up and the you. It went up on the youth. Already, you have

on the youth. Already, you have on the youth. Already, you have

been empowered the three years. been empowered the three years.

Decent, mainstream politicians like Decent, mainstream politicians like

Decent, mainstream politicians like Decent, mainstream politicians like

Mark and myself, this is a bet Mark and myself, this is a bet

Cooper's message this morning, Cooper's message this morning,

Cooper's message this morning, shouldn't be arguing the way they

shouldn't be arguing the way they shouldn't be arguing the way they

are arguing on emigration. We are arguing on emigration. We

are arguing on emigration. We are arguing on emigration. We

believe the same thing, it is good believe the same thing, it is good

believe the same thing, it is good believe the same thing, it is good

but it needs to be controlled and but it needs to be controlled and

but it needs to be controlled and but it needs to be controlled and

people need to come here, keep the people need to come here, keep the

people need to come here, keep the law, speak the language and pay

law, speak the language and pay law, speak the language and pay

taxes. This has affected every taxes. This has affected every

taxes. This has affected every Western company -- country. It you

Western company -- country. It you Western company -- country. It you

can have a debate around these can have a debate around these

can have a debate around these things, I am perfectly willing to

things, I am perfectly willing to things, I am perfectly willing to

things, I am perfectly willing to listen to an argument about a cat.

listen to an argument about a cat. listen to an argument about a cat.

listen to an argument about a cat. Alan is right when he says the

Alan is right when he says the Alan is right when he says the

pressure is there in terms of pressure is there in terms of

globalisation movement. But other globalisation movement. But other

globalisation movement. But other countries did not see the same

countries did not see the same countries did not see the same

rises. He is right about the rises. He is right about the

rises. He is right about the economic growth, but the economy

economic growth, but the economy economic growth, but the economy

has created over one million has created over one million

private sector jobs. Employment private sector jobs. Employment

private sector jobs. Employment figures recently has shown the

figures recently has shown the figures recently has shown the

increase of people getting into increase of people getting into

increase of people getting into increase of people getting into

work, nine out of 10 of those work, nine out of 10 of those

work, nine out of 10 of those people were British citizens or

people were British citizens or people were British citizens or

rather than foreign nationals. That rather than foreign nationals. That

rather than foreign nationals. That rather than foreign nationals. That

is something that was not true when is something that was not true when

is something that was not true when Labour were in power. What about

Labour were in power. What about Labour were in power. What about

Labour were in power. What about making this clear, as a beck Cooper

making this clear, as a beck Cooper making this clear, as a beck Cooper

did this morning, two verts of did this morning, two verts of

did this morning, two verts of migration are Brits. Brits who have

migration are Brits. Brits who have migration are Brits. Brits who have

been living abroad and coming back been living abroad and coming back

been living abroad and coming back to this country are counted as

to this country are counted as to this country are counted as

immigrants. So people saying these immigrants. So people saying these

people coming from different people coming from different

countries, the biggest country countries, the biggest country

countries, the biggest country people were coming from was Britain.

people were coming from was Britain. people were coming from was Britain.

people were coming from was Britain. You can defuse some of the argument

You can defuse some of the argument You can defuse some of the argument

that the non- decent, extreme that the non- decent, extreme

that the non- decent, extreme politicians tried to put around

politicians tried to put around politicians tried to put around

immigration he just quote these immigration he just quote these

immigration he just quote these immigration he just quote these

facts. Except it is not a fact, net facts. Except it is not a fact, net

facts. Except it is not a fact, net facts. Except it is not a fact, net

migration in your last year as Home migration in your last year as Home

migration in your last year as Home Secretary was 224,000, of which

Secretary was 224,000, of which Secretary was 224,000, of which

160,000 were non EU members or 160,000 were non EU members or

160,000 were non EU members or 160,000 were non EU members or

citizen. The Brits made part of it, citizen. The Brits made part of it,

citizen. The Brits made part of it, but you're allowed in the majority

but you're allowed in the majority but you're allowed in the majority

but you're allowed in the majority of the net which was made up of

of the net which was made up of of the net which was made up of

of the net which was made up of non- EU members. I will take five

non- EU members. I will take five non- EU members. I will take five

months responsibility the 2010, the months responsibility the 2010, the

months responsibility the 2010, the rest of it was under this

rest of it was under this rest of it was under this

Government. It was under your Government. It was under your

Government. It was under your policies. Since we have been in

policies. Since we have been in policies. Since we have been in

power, because that came out last power, because that came out last

power, because that came out last power, because that came out last

week showed a fall of over a third week showed a fall of over a third

week showed a fall of over a third week showed a fall of over a third

and most of that was a cut in and most of that was a cut in

immigration, the lowest number immigration, the lowest number

immigration, the lowest number immigration, the lowest number

since 2003. When you look at the since 2003. When you look at the

since 2003. When you look at the since 2003. When you look at the

short term, there is a touch of was short term, there is a touch of was

short term, there is a touch of was talking about this morning? I don't

talking about this morning? I don't talking about this morning? I don't

think there is any evidence there think there is any evidence there

think there is any evidence there is a problem. Those are students

is a problem. Those are students coming into English-language

coming into English-language coming into English-language

coming into English-language schools on short courses. If we see

schools on short courses. If we see schools on short courses. If we see

evidence there is a problem, of evidence there is a problem, of

evidence there is a problem, of evidence there is a problem, of

course we will deal with it, as we course we will deal with it, as we

course we will deal with it, as we course we will deal with it, as we

have since the election. It is not have since the election. It is not

have since the election. It is not in the net migration figures, that

in the net migration figures, that in the net migration figures, that

in the net migration figures, that is why they ignore it. Thanks for

is why they ignore it. Thanks for is why they ignore it. Thanks for

coming on. Come back. I will. coming on. Come back. I will.

Now yesterday William Hague Now yesterday William Hague

announced that armoured vehicles announced that armoured vehicles

announced that armoured vehicles would be sent to help opposition

would be sent to help opposition would be sent to help opposition

forces fighting in Syria. The forces fighting in Syria. The

forces fighting in Syria. The Foreign Secretary said he hoped the

Foreign Secretary said he hoped the Foreign Secretary said he hoped the

equipment would help save lives. It equipment would help save lives. It

was a controversial announcement was a controversial announcement

which didn't please everyone. which didn't please everyone.

which didn't please everyone. Here's a flavour of the Commons

yesterday afternoon. yesterday afternoon.

yesterday afternoon. We will also provide non-lethal

We will also provide non-lethal protection of civilians, going

protection of civilians, going protection of civilians, going

protection of civilians, going beyond what we have done before. We

beyond what we have done before. We are identifying the protective

are identifying the protective are identifying the protective

equipment which will be of most equipment which will be of most

equipment which will be of most assistance to them and likely to

assistance to them and likely to assistance to them and likely to

assistance to them and likely to save most lives. I will keep the

save most lives. I will keep the save most lives. I will keep the

save most lives. I will keep the House of dated, but it will include

House of dated, but it will include armoured, four-wheel-drive vehicles

armoured, four-wheel-drive vehicles armoured, four-wheel-drive vehicles

to help opposition figures to move to help opposition figures to move

to help opposition figures to move around freely, as well as personal

around freely, as well as personal protection equipment, including

protection equipment, including protection equipment, including

body armour. Surely the priority body armour. Surely the priority

body armour. Surely the priority body armour. Surely the priority

for Britain should be to unify the for Britain should be to unify the

for Britain should be to unify the Syrian opposition, not to on it.

Syrian opposition, not to on it. Syrian opposition, not to on it.

The continuing loss of life The continuing loss of life

The continuing loss of life The continuing loss of life

underlines the fact it needs to see underlines the fact it needs to see

a de-escalation and political a de-escalation and political

resolution. While the Government resolution. While the Government

resolution. While the Government resolution. While the Government

has our support for its actions to has our support for its actions to

provide humanitarian and non-lethal provide humanitarian and non-lethal

provide humanitarian and non-lethal provide humanitarian and non-lethal

assistance to Syria, it is far from assistance to Syria, it is far from

assistance to Syria, it is far from clear that taking steps to

clear that taking steps to clear that taking steps to

intensive by this conflict in the intensive by this conflict in the

intensive by this conflict in the months ahead, would do anything to

months ahead, would do anything to months ahead, would do anything to

reduce the present level of reduce the present level of

reduce the present level of violence being suffered by the

violence being suffered by the violence being suffered by the

Syrian people. While I welcome the Syrian people. While I welcome the

Syrian people. While I welcome the Foreign Secretary's speech and the

Foreign Secretary's speech and the Foreign Secretary's speech and the

measures he has announced, I regret measures he has announced, I regret

measures he has announced, I regret measures he has announced, I regret

measures he has announced, I regret to say I cannot see how any of them

to say I cannot see how any of them to say I cannot see how any of them

will have any serious prospect of will have any serious prospect of

will have any serious prospect of reducing the length of this

reducing the length of this conflict and preventing the

conflict and preventing the conflict and preventing the

massacre of tens of thousands of massacre of tens of thousands of

massacre of tens of thousands of massacre of tens of thousands of

more Syrians. In my judgment he is more Syrians. In my judgment he is

more Syrians. In my judgment he is more Syrians. In my judgment he is

right not to rule out the option of right not to rule out the option of

direct, military supplies. The direct, military supplies. The

strategic, diplomatic consequences strategic, diplomatic consequences

strategic, diplomatic consequences of any such decision, and the

of any such decision, and the of any such decision, and the

of any such decision, and the degree to which we can get bogged

degree to which we can get bogged degree to which we can get bogged

degree to which we can get bogged degree to which we can get bogged

down in a kind of cold war, a proxy down in a kind of cold war, a proxy

down in a kind of cold war, a proxy down in a kind of cold war, a proxy

war in that situation, needs to be war in that situation, needs to be

war in that situation, needs to be thought through carefully before we

thought through carefully before we thought through carefully before we

make a positive decision. Is there make a positive decision. Is there

make a positive decision. Is there make a positive decision. Is there

any chance we can put all our any chance we can put all our

any chance we can put all our efforts into getting a ceasefire

efforts into getting a ceasefire efforts into getting a ceasefire

arranged, so that in that ceasefire arranged, so that in that ceasefire

arranged, so that in that ceasefire when the guns stop and civilians

when the guns stop and civilians when the guns stop and civilians

stop being killed, we might stop being killed, we might

stop being killed, we might stop being killed, we might

actually be able to use politics to actually be able to use politics to

solve the situation. solve the situation.

solve the situation. solve the situation.

Joining us now is chairman of the Joining us now is chairman of the

Commons Foreign Affairs Committee, Richard Ottaway.

Richard Ottaway. Richard Ottaway.

Did you agree with what William Did you agree with what William

Did you agree with what William Did you agree with what William

Hague announced, is it a good idea? Hague announced, is it a good idea?

Hague announced, is it a good idea? Hague announced, is it a good idea?

Yes, I think if we are going to Yes, I think if we are going to

Yes, I think if we are going to play a role on the international

play a role on the international play a role on the international

stage, we have to take stage, we have to take

stage, we have to take responsibility see Risley. He is

responsibility see Risley. He is responsibility see Risley. He is

concerned about the way the concerned about the way the

concerned about the way the situation is deteriorating and I

situation is deteriorating and I situation is deteriorating and I

situation is deteriorating and I think this was the right step to

think this was the right step to think this was the right step to

think this was the right step to take. Is it going to save lives? If

take. Is it going to save lives? If take. Is it going to save lives? If

you're going to provide armoured you're going to provide armoured

you're going to provide armoured vehicles and body armour to Syrian

vehicles and body armour to Syrian vehicles and body armour to Syrian

vehicles and body armour to Syrian rebels, why don't you on them with

rebels, why don't you on them with rebels, why don't you on them with

guns and ammunition? We think it guns and ammunition? We think it

guns and ammunition? We think it guns and ammunition? We think it

will save lives, that is why we are will save lives, that is why we are

will save lives, that is why we are supplying the equipment. But there

supplying the equipment. But there supplying the equipment. But there

is a distinction between providing is a distinction between providing

is a distinction between providing a protective weapon and giving guns

a protective weapon and giving guns a protective weapon and giving guns

a protective weapon and giving guns and ammunition as two rebels he we

and ammunition as two rebels he we and ammunition as two rebels he we

and ammunition as two rebels he we do not know, and whose identity is

do not know, and whose identity is do not know, and whose identity is

uncertain and their intentions on uncertain and their intentions on

uncertain and their intentions on clear. But why then even drift

clear. But why then even drift towards giving armoured vehicles

towards giving armoured vehicles towards giving armoured vehicles

and body armour? People are dying and body armour? People are dying

and body armour? People are dying over there. There is a humanitarian

over there. There is a humanitarian over there. There is a humanitarian

disaster taking place, thousands of disaster taking place, thousands of

disaster taking place, thousands of refugees on the move, people been

refugees on the move, people been refugees on the move, people been

killed daily. We cannot sit back killed daily. We cannot sit back

killed daily. We cannot sit back and do nothing. It is slightly

and do nothing. It is slightly and do nothing. It is slightly

and do nothing. It is slightly academic as to whether we should be

academic as to whether we should be academic as to whether we should be

arming the rebels, because other arming the rebels, because other

arming the rebels, because other arming the rebels, because other

people on in them at the moment. people on in them at the moment.

people on in them at the moment. Weapons are going in there will

Weapons are going in there will Weapons are going in there will

Weapons are going in there will stop if we are to take our

international responsibilities international responsibilities

international responsibilities seriously, we have to do something.

seriously, we have to do something. seriously, we have to do something.

Alan Johnson, do you agree that Alan Johnson, do you agree that

Alan Johnson, do you agree that Alan Johnson, do you agree that

something had to be done? Yes, I something had to be done? Yes, I

something had to be done? Yes, I agree with that. Everyone wants

agree with that. Everyone wants agree with that. Everyone wants

agree with that. Everyone wants this to be settled by talking.

this to be settled by talking. this to be settled by talking.

this to be settled by talking. is not going to happen? There was

is not going to happen? There was an important development, the

an important development, the organisation we recognise, dropped

organisation we recognise, dropped organisation we recognise, dropped

their criteria that President Assad their criteria that President Assad

their criteria that President Assad their criteria that President Assad

had to leave before they would talk had to leave before they would talk

had to leave before they would talk had to leave before they would talk

about solving the issue. It is only about solving the issue. It is only

about solving the issue. It is only about solving the issue. It is only

a small thing, but it is a a small thing, but it is a

a small thing, but it is a development. Most of the questions

development. Most of the questions development. Most of the questions

to William Hague yesterday, how do to William Hague yesterday, how do

to William Hague yesterday, how do to William Hague yesterday, how do

we manage to build on that? How do we manage to build on that? How do

we manage to build on that? How do you avoid drifting towards military

you avoid drifting towards military you avoid drifting towards military

intervention? A ceasefire does not intervention? A ceasefire does not

intervention? A ceasefire does not intervention? A ceasefire does not

seem to be a realistic option at seem to be a realistic option at

the moment, despite that the moment, despite that

the moment, despite that development. Is there a fear that

development. Is there a fear that development. Is there a fear that

there could be a drift towards there could be a drift towards

military intervention eventually? military intervention eventually?

military intervention eventually? There is a real fear here.

There is a real fear here. There is a real fear here.

President Assad will eventually go, President Assad will eventually go,

President Assad will eventually go, President Assad will eventually go,

whether he will run out of money or whether he will run out of money or

whether he will run out of money or is toppled another way. What goes

is toppled another way. What goes is toppled another way. What goes

into the vacuum, what is left into the vacuum, what is left

into the vacuum, what is left into the vacuum, what is left

behind him, is open to question. It behind him, is open to question. It

behind him, is open to question. It behind him, is open to question. It

could develop into a civil war, if could develop into a civil war, if

could develop into a civil war, if could develop into a civil war, if

we are not careful. You will have we are not careful. You will have

we are not careful. You will have the various factions been on by

the various factions been on by different countries around the

different countries around the different countries around the

world. Britain gets dragged in, but world. Britain gets dragged in, but

world. Britain gets dragged in, but world. Britain gets dragged in, but

in a sense it would be better to in a sense it would be better to

in a sense it would be better to keep out altogether? We cannot keep

keep out altogether? We cannot keep keep out altogether? We cannot keep

keep out altogether? We cannot keep out altogether. We are part of the

out altogether. We are part of the out altogether. We are part of the

out altogether. We are part of the arms embargo by the youth will stop

arms embargo by the youth will stop arms embargo by the youth will stop

-- EU. Russia and China are -- EU. Russia and China are

-- EU. Russia and China are stopping any progress through the

stopping any progress through the stopping any progress through the

UN Security Council. But what UN Security Council. But what

William Hague announced yesterday, William Hague announced yesterday,

William Hague announced yesterday, with a sense of frustration,

with a sense of frustration, with a sense of frustration,

actually we have to do something. actually we have to do something.

actually we have to do something. actually we have to do something.

We cannot just turn up back and We cannot just turn up back and

We cannot just turn up back and walk away. What about the

walk away. What about the walk away. What about the

Americans? John Kerry was over last Americans? John Kerry was over last

Americans? John Kerry was over last week talking to William Hague about

week talking to William Hague about week talking to William Hague about

this. Barack Obama's priorities on this. Barack Obama's priorities on

this. Barack Obama's priorities on domestic and is reluctant to get

domestic and is reluctant to get domestic and is reluctant to get

domestic and is reluctant to get involved in any more wars. Do you

involved in any more wars. Do you involved in any more wars. Do you

think you should get involved? think you should get involved?

think you should get involved? think you should get involved?

is not for me to comment on, that is not for me to comment on, that

is not for me to comment on, that is his political priorities. They

is his political priorities. They is his political priorities. They

is his political priorities. They have not walked away, but there is

have not walked away, but there is have not walked away, but there is

have not walked away, but there is a pivot going on away towards --

a pivot going on away towards -- a pivot going on away towards --

a pivot going on away towards -- away from the Middle East. But I

away from the Middle East. But I away from the Middle East. But I

suspect a lot of intelligence suspect a lot of intelligence

information and equipment, so information and equipment, so

information and equipment, so they're not divorced from the whole

thing. thing.

thing. thing.

Two MPs in the House hands St the Two MPs in the House hands St the

Two MPs in the House hands St the Two MPs in the House hands St the

Hugo Chavez, who do you think they Hugo Chavez, who do you think they

are? Hello President take. are? Hello President take.

are? Hello President take. We're going to concentrate on

We're going to concentrate on We're going to concentrate on

matters economic for the next 20 matters economic for the next 20

matters economic for the next 20 matters economic for the next 20

minutes or so. So it's just as well minutes or so. So it's just as well

minutes or so. So it's just as well we've got an honorary professor of

we've got an honorary professor of we've got an honorary professor of

economics with us. What is the economics with us. What is the

economics with us. What is the economics with us. What is the

first thing you will do when you first thing you will do when you

first thing you will do when you start the job on Monday morning?

start the job on Monday morning? start the job on Monday morning?

start the job on Monday morning? Pick up a book on economics for

Pick up a book on economics for Pick up a book on economics for

Pick up a book on economics for begin its -- beginners. I had just

begin its -- beginners. I had just begin its -- beginners. I had just

begin its -- beginners. I had just been given a would cloud of all the

been given a would cloud of all the been given a would cloud of all the

words you use, people is the words you use, people is the

words you use, people is the biggest, people, were, means and

history. history.

history. Earlier today, David Cameron had

Earlier today, David Cameron had Earlier today, David Cameron had

Earlier today, David Cameron had this to say about the state of the

economy. economy.

economy. economy.

economy. If we stick to the plan and if we

If we stick to the plan and if we If we stick to the plan and if we

reject the false choices, we can reject the false choices, we can

reject the false choices, we can come through this together with a

come through this together with a come through this together with a

stronger, more resilient and more stronger, more resilient and more

stronger, more resilient and more balanced economy. But first, we

balanced economy. But first, we balanced economy. But first, we

balanced economy. But first, we want to start with what went wrong.

want to start with what went wrong. want to start with what went wrong.

If the don't understand what went If the don't understand what went

If the don't understand what went If the don't understand what went

wrong in our economy, we will never wrong in our economy, we will never

wrong in our economy, we will never understand what is truly needed to

understand what is truly needed to put him right.

put him right. put him right.

David Cameron a little earlier. David Cameron a little earlier.

David Cameron a little earlier. Well the Business Secretary, Vince

Well the Business Secretary, Vince Well the Business Secretary, Vince

Cable, has also been pontificating Cable, has also been pontificating

Cable, has also been pontificating Cable, has also been pontificating

about the economy. But he had a about the economy. But he had a

slightly different message. Writing slightly different message. Writing

slightly different message. Writing had to say. We are joined now by the

had to say. We are joined now by the business minister, Michael Fallon.

business minister, Michael Fallon. business minister, Michael Fallon.

And the Liberal Democrat peer, And the Liberal Democrat peer,

And the Liberal Democrat peer, Michael Oakeshott. Should we borrow

Michael Oakeshott. Should we borrow more for investment?

more for investment? more for investment?

Well, we are borrowing at the Well, we are borrowing at the

Well, we are borrowing at the Well, we are borrowing at the

moment, but we have to keep things moment, but we have to keep things

moment, but we have to keep things moment, but we have to keep things

under control. That is why we are under control. That is why we are

under control. That is why we are putting money aside for guarantees

putting money aside for guarantees for infrastructure investment. We

for infrastructure investment. We for infrastructure investment. We

for infrastructure investment. We are doing that already. But we can't

are doing that already. But we can't are doing that already. But we can't

are doing that already. But we can't afford to deviate from our plan to

afford to deviate from our plan to afford to deviate from our plan to

get the fiscal consolidation working get the fiscal consolidation working

get the fiscal consolidation working get the fiscal consolidation working

and delivered by the end of this and delivered by the end of this

and delivered by the end of this Parliament. But the figures for

Parliament. But the figures for Parliament. But the figures for

public investment in the red Hook public investment in the red Hook

show a consistent decline, show a consistent decline,

show a consistent decline, year-on-year from 2010 will stop so

year-on-year from 2010 will stop so year-on-year from 2010 will stop so

year-on-year from 2010 will stop so every year, you are spending less on

every year, you are spending less on every year, you are spending less on

public investment. On average, we public investment. On average, we

public investment. On average, we are spending more than the last

are spending more than the last are spending more than the last

Labour government ever did. With the Labour government ever did. With the

Labour government ever did. With the building of the Olympic Stadium and

building of the Olympic Stadium and building of the Olympic Stadium and

the pick of the hospital building the pick of the hospital building

the pick of the hospital building programme, on average, we will spend

programme, on average, we will spend programme, on average, we will spend

programme, on average, we will spend more per year on capital. How much

more per year on capital. How much more per year on capital. How much

are you spending this financial year are you spending this financial year

are you spending this financial year on public investment has Mac �40

on public investment has Mac �40 on public investment has Mac �40

on public investment has Mac �40 billion. No, it is 28. No, there is

billion. No, it is 28. No, there is billion. No, it is 28. No, there is

neither to investment coming in as neither to investment coming in as

neither to investment coming in as well. I am talking about public

well. I am talking about public investment. The government provides

investment. The government provides investment. The government provides

a guarantee, and private investment a guarantee, and private investment

a guarantee, and private investment comes in behind it. Is public

comes in behind it. Is public comes in behind it. Is public

investment rising or falling? investment rising or falling?

investment rising or falling? give you Vince's words. We inherited

give you Vince's words. We inherited give you Vince's words. We inherited

a cyclical downturn caused by the a cyclical downturn caused by the

collapse of private housebuilding collapse of private housebuilding

and commercial property development, and commercial property development,

and commercial property development, and we have not started rebuilding

and we have not started rebuilding and we have not started rebuilding

that. Nick Clegg also said he that. Nick Clegg also said he

that. Nick Clegg also said he that. Nick Clegg also said he

regretted that we let it drop so regretted that we let it drop so

regretted that we let it drop so regretted that we let it drop so

far. What Michael is laying makes a far. What Michael is laying makes a

far. What Michael is laying makes a far. What Michael is laying makes a

lot of sense. He is talking about lot of sense. He is talking about

lot of sense. He is talking about the guarantees that are helping the

the guarantees that are helping the the guarantees that are helping the

the guarantees that are helping the private sector come in. But it is

private sector come in. But it is private sector come in. But it is

private sector come in. But it is not a big enough scale. Five billion

not a big enough scale. Five billion not a big enough scale. Five billion

was committed for longer and was committed for longer and

infrastructure projects which are infrastructure projects which are

infrastructure projects which are very slow and capital intensive.

very slow and capital intensive. very slow and capital intensive.

Most and Liberal Democrats are Most and Liberal Democrats are

Most and Liberal Democrats are Most and Liberal Democrats are

saying we must do that in a much saying we must do that in a much

bigger way, focusing on bigger way, focusing on

bigger way, focusing on housebuilding. Last week, I was at

housebuilding. Last week, I was at housebuilding. Last week, I was at

Prudential. They all want to put Prudential. They all want to put

Prudential. They all want to put Prudential. They all want to put

vast amounts of money in, but the vast amounts of money in, but the

vast amounts of money in, but the Treasury has to be more imaginative

Treasury has to be more imaginative Treasury has to be more imaginative

Treasury has to be more imaginative will stop they have to take away the

will stop they have to take away the restrictions on Council Association

restrictions on Council Association restrictions on Council Association

borrowing. It is exactly what you borrowing. It is exactly what you

borrowing. It is exactly what you have been talking about, Michael,

have been talking about, Michael, have been talking about, Michael,

have been talking about, Michael, instead of five alien, which takes a

instead of five alien, which takes a instead of five alien, which takes a

instead of five alien, which takes a long time to come through, let's say

long time to come through, let's say long time to come through, let's say

100,000 more houses a year. That 100,000 more houses a year. That

100,000 more houses a year. That would create half a million more

would create half a million more would create half a million more

would create half a million more jobs. We are all signed up to this.

jobs. We are all signed up to this. jobs. We are all signed up to this.

The coalition agreement said we The coalition agreement said we

The coalition agreement said we The coalition agreement said we

would get the deficit down and get would get the deficit down and get

would get the deficit down and get the economy growing, and we have

the economy growing, and we have the economy growing, and we have

the economy growing, and we have made a good start. But over the last

made a good start. But over the last made a good start. But over the last

made a good start. But over the last few months, it has gone wrong. The

few months, it has gone wrong. The few months, it has gone wrong. The

few months, it has gone wrong. The deficit is going up again. It is not

deficit is going up again. It is not deficit is going up again. It is not

deficit is going up again. It is not working. If I am given money to

working. If I am given money to working. If I am given money to

invest, we agreed the period over invest, we agreed the period over

invest, we agreed the period over invest, we agreed the period over

which we will measure it. We have which we will measure it. We have

which we will measure it. We have which we will measure it. We have

made a start. The balance of risks made a start. The balance of risks

made a start. The balance of risks made a start. The balance of risks

in the market has now changed. We in the market has now changed. We

in the market has now changed. We have had a downgrade because the

have had a downgrade because the markets don't believe austerities

markets don't believe austerities markets don't believe austerities

markets don't believe austerities working and they want to see more

working and they want to see more working and they want to see more

imaginative things. When you say it imaginative things. When you say it

imaginative things. When you say it imaginative, you mean to borrow

imaginative, you mean to borrow imaginative, you mean to borrow

loads more. Like the Labour Party. loads more. Like the Labour Party.

loads more. Like the Labour Party. What the markets and the rating

What the markets and the rating What the markets and the rating

agencies said was that there would agencies said was that there would

agencies said was that there would agencies said was that there would

be a further downgrade if they saw be a further downgrade if they saw

any weakening of political any weakening of political

any weakening of political commitment to our overall target of

commitment to our overall target of commitment to our overall target of

the school consolidation. Whether it the school consolidation. Whether it

the school consolidation. Whether it is Ed Miliband or a conservative

is Ed Miliband or a conservative is Ed Miliband or a conservative

adventure or a LibDem Cabinet adventure or a LibDem Cabinet

adventure or a LibDem Cabinet adventure or a LibDem Cabinet

minister, it is dangerous to say we minister, it is dangerous to say we

minister, it is dangerous to say we minister, it is dangerous to say we

minister, it is dangerous to say we are going to go off our plan. We are

are going to go off our plan. We are are going to go off our plan. We are

are going to go off our plan. We are not going to go off plan. The prime

not going to go off plan. The prime not going to go off plan. The prime

ministers said we are sticking to ministers said we are sticking to

ministers said we are sticking to ministers said we are sticking to

the plan, and that applies to the the plan, and that applies to the

the plan, and that applies to the whole Cabinet. You should not be

whole Cabinet. You should not be whole Cabinet. You should not be

criticising your boss. There is only criticising your boss. There is only

criticising your boss. There is only one boss here, the Prime Minister.

one boss here, the Prime Minister. one boss here, the Prime Minister.

one boss here, the Prime Minister. There is a coalition. There is only

There is a coalition. There is only There is a coalition. There is only

one economic boss. There is one one economic boss. There is one

one economic boss. There is one chancellor, and there is one plant.

chancellor, and there is one plant. chancellor, and there is one plant.

chancellor, and there is one plant. That is where you are wrong. Am I

That is where you are wrong. Am I That is where you are wrong. Am I

allowed to say something? Let's look allowed to say something? Let's look

allowed to say something? Let's look allowed to say something? Let's look

at the banks, which is the key thing at the banks, which is the key thing

at the banks, which is the key thing where you are doing very well,

where you are doing very well, where you are doing very well,

Michael, but there is a joint Michael, but there is a joint

responsibility between the responsibility between the

responsibility between the Treasury, George Osborne and Vince

Treasury, George Osborne and Vince Treasury, George Osborne and Vince

Treasury, George Osborne and Vince Cable. The governor is right that it

Cable. The governor is right that it Cable. The governor is right that it

Cable. The governor is right that it is a nonsense to carry on pretending

is a nonsense to carry on pretending is a nonsense to carry on pretending

is a nonsense to carry on pretending that RBS is at arm's-length. It is

that RBS is at arm's-length. It is that RBS is at arm's-length. It is

that RBS is at arm's-length. It is not true to say that only George

not true to say that only George not true to say that only George

Osborne is in charge of economic Osborne is in charge of economic

Osborne is in charge of economic Osborne is in charge of economic

Lizzie. It is a balance and a Lizzie. It is a balance and a

Lizzie. It is a balance and a coalition. Michael Fallon, when you

coalition. Michael Fallon, when you coalition. Michael Fallon, when you

coalition. Michael Fallon, when you say we are sticking to the plan, can

say we are sticking to the plan, can say we are sticking to the plan, can

say we are sticking to the plan, can say we are sticking to the plan, can

I just point out to you that as of I just point out to you that as of

I just point out to you that as of the autumn statement, you will now

the autumn statement, you will now the autumn statement, you will now

the autumn statement, you will now or 210 �11 more than you planned to

or 210 �11 more than you planned to or 210 �11 more than you planned to

or 210 �11 more than you planned to borrow in 2010 will stop so you are

borrow in 2010 will stop so you are borrow in 2010 will stop so you are

borrow in 2010 will stop so you are already off the plan? You know we

already off the plan? You know we already off the plan? You know we

have had high inflation and high have had high inflation and high

have had high inflation and high commodity prices. You know about the

commodity prices. You know about the commodity prices. You know about the

problems in the Eurozone. So the problems in the Eurozone. So the

problems in the Eurozone. So the problems in the Eurozone. So the

answer to that can't be to borrow answer to that can't be to borrow

answer to that can't be to borrow answer to that can't be to borrow

even more. We have to stick to the even more. We have to stick to the

even more. We have to stick to the even more. We have to stick to the

plan and ensure that we are meeting plan and ensure that we are meeting

plan and ensure that we are meeting our overall target of getting taxes

our overall target of getting taxes our overall target of getting taxes

and spending into line. You can't and spending into line. You can't

and spending into line. You can't have two macro policies about this.

have two macro policies about this. have two macro policies about this.

have two macro policies about this. There is only one policy, and we are

There is only one policy, and we are There is only one policy, and we are

There is only one policy, and we are all committed to it. At when the

all committed to it. At when the all committed to it. At when the

all committed to it. At when the policy is not working, you then move

policy is not working, you then move policy is not working, you then move

policy is not working, you then move it on and make it bolder. You

it on and make it bolder. You it on and make it bolder. You

it on and make it bolder. You yourself have said we are doing five

yourself have said we are doing five billion of infrastructure

billion of infrastructure billion of infrastructure

guarantees. Let's do more on guarantees. Let's do more on

guarantees. Let's do more on guarantees. Let's do more on

housing, which is where the jobs are housing, which is where the jobs are

housing, which is where the jobs are to stop otherwise, the economy is

to stop otherwise, the economy is to stop otherwise, the economy is

to stop otherwise, the economy is flat and the deficit is going up.

flat and the deficit is going up. flat and the deficit is going up.

flat and the deficit is going up. The economy is not flat. The GDP

The economy is not flat. The GDP The economy is not flat. The GDP

figures are flat. Look at the figures are flat. Look at the

figures are flat. Look at the facts. The prime minister made clear

facts. The prime minister made clear facts. The prime minister made clear

this morning that the plan is this morning that the plan is

this morning that the plan is this morning that the plan is

beginning to work. We have seen 1 beginning to work. We have seen 1

beginning to work. We have seen 1 million more private sector jobs

million more private sector jobs million more private sector jobs

million more private sector jobs created. Whose side are you on? I am

created. Whose side are you on? I am created. Whose side are you on? I am

on the side of the Liberal on the side of the Liberal

on the side of the Liberal Democrats. Stop smearing us and lets

Democrats. Stop smearing us and lets Democrats. Stop smearing us and lets

Democrats. Stop smearing us and lets look at the facts. We have seen a

look at the facts. We have seen a look at the facts. We have seen a

big increase in private sector big increase in private sector

big increase in private sector jobs. We have seen more confidence

jobs. We have seen more confidence jobs. We have seen more confidence

in Britain as a destination for in Britain as a destination for

in Britain as a destination for investment. We have seen exports

investment. We have seen exports investment. We have seen exports

increased some of emerging markets. increased some of emerging markets.

increased some of emerging markets. Michael, let me say something. Just

Michael, let me say something. Just Michael, let me say something. Just

Michael, let me say something. Just a minute. We are trading with places