Conference Special Daily Politics


Conference Special

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn with the latest from the Conservative Party conference, including interviews with cabinet ministers Iain Duncan Smith and Francis Maude.


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Welcome to the Daily Politics special. Yesterday I was in the

:00:45.:00:54.

factory where they are making parts for our new London buses. Manchester

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tells London where to go away to get off! At last, a well delivered

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conference gag. So can Boris pull off being the mayor and a member of

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Parliament at the same time? They are considered a plague at the

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conference, says Nigel Farage, but some Tory MPs apparently want to be

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infected. What conditions of any conservative UKIP deals? The scheme

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has its vocal opponents in the Party but what do activists in Manchester

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think about High Speed Rail? And living with the enemy - what

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happened when Tony Blair's former spin doctor went to Manchester?

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All that in the next hour and with us for the duration - fresh from

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picking up gongs at the Emmy's in Los Angeles for the American version

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picking up gongs at the Emmy's in of "house of cards" - is author,

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screenwriter, and former Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party

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Michael Dobbs. Before we move on to events in Manchester, let's turn to

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Michael Dobbs. Before we move on to Ed Miliband and an article today in

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the Daily Mail about his late father, Ralph. On Saturday the Mail

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published an article about Ralph Miliband under the headline "the man

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who hated Britain". Today Mr Miliband has been given space to

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reply, but in an adjoining comment piece the Mail says it stands by its

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original article which it has also reprinted today. Here's what Mr

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Miliband had to say earlier. It is perfectly legitimate to talk about

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my father's politics but when they said he hated Britain, I will not

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put up with that because he loved Britain. He served in the Royal

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Navy, he was a refugee who came here, he took great comfort in what

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this country offered him and I am was appalled when I read that in the

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Daily Mail, and they said he hated Britain, it is a lie. They have

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repeated that lie today and gone further, and described my father 's

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legacy as evil. The word evil is reserved for particular cases and I

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was not able to let that stand and that is why I have spoken out. Ed

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Miliband is clearly disturbed and he is right to be, Michael? Yes, it is

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probably counter-productive as well, what is the point of accusing Ed

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Miliband of effectively being a crypto Marxist and establishing a

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sort of idea that he is anything other than the man he is, which is a

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man still searching for what he believes in and what he stands for.

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To attack a father who is no longer here to defend himself, as David

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Cameron said this morning, he would be up in arms if anybody attacked

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his late father. I remember the Daily Express and the Daily Mail got

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into a furious row with each other when they started attacking each

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other's proprietors and they eventually had to call a truce on

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the whole thing. I suppose we'll have a few skeletons in our closet

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the whole thing. I suppose we'll but to attack a politician might Ed

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Miliband because of what his father might have written when he was 17 is

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probably not the strongest of arguments. His father was a Marxist,

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that has always been known, and was not a great believer in the

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Parliamentary system. When then they'll does this now, it is not

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attacking his father, it is attacking Ed Miliband. I really do

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believe that this sort of stuff should be pushed to one side and

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let's concentrate on Ed Miliband's policies. He will not be going for

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lunch at the Daily Mail at any time. I'm surprised he reads the Daily

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Mail. Other people have done. Let's go to Manchester now, it is time to

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get a sense of the mood of the conference. Let's speak to Elizabeth

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Rigby, I understand hurricane Boris made landfall last night, what has

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been the impact? It is Borismania here as ever. His supporters are

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saying he is trying to be loyal to David Cameron and he is setting out

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his pitch for a leadership battle but not for a few years. He made a

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couple of remarks on stamp duty, made a slight take about helping out

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in a subtle way but the Boris show is in town and we love it. When he

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says he is loyal, we believe him 100%. We wouldn't doubt that for a

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minute, would we? Absolutely, he has no all teary emotive. When he basks

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in the glory of standing ovations, he is thinking of no more than doing

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a good job as London mayor. His mayoralty runs until 2016 but it is

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interesting to hear the Prime Minister talking about it and who

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knows where the Boris story will go? What is the Prime Minister up to

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here? Boris has ruled out being an MP as long as he is still the mayor

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of London. It will still be mayor in 2015, what is the Prime Minister

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doing here? What else can the Prime Minister do, if he is asked these

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questions, if he appears to say I don't want Boris anywhere near my

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Parliamentary party in the Commons, it looks like somehow he sees Boris

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as a threat. He has to be prime ministerial about it and say, yes, I

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would welcome Boris back with open arms but his calculation is that it

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is better to keep Boris away from the Parliamentary party as long as

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he can. The truth is that Mr Johnson needs the Prime Minister to lose in

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2015. That would open up a leadership vacancy, however I'm not

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sure whether Boris has the capability to be an opposition

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leader. I think he can just about all off being Prime Minister but I

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think the chances for it all going horribly wrong if he were the

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opposition leader, which we all know is the most difficult job in

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politics, it could go horribly wrong if that were the case. Now it is the

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morning after the day before, how is George Osborne's speech being

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regarded? I would say the speech has been welcomed. The Tories are

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clearly making their pitch as the protectors of the economy and when

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we were going around the bars last night talking to senior people in

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the party, they made the point that they can only win if they win on the

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economy and that has to come first. George Osborne slowly but the

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economy and economic fiscal discipline at the heart of the

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strategy, and a few populist measures sprinkled on like fairy

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dust with the fuel duty. Fairy dust in Manchester! Thank you. What do

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you make of the Boris phenomenon? Is he a serious contender to replace

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David Cameron? I think he has to be careful because every year we are

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getting accustomed to this Boris Paxman interview on Newsnight, where

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Jeremy asks the questions and Boris sits there and says, I may love

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them, but he has got to start committing himself. In what way? To

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say, yes, I have these ambitions and they will come a point when I want

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to be a member of Parliament. He has a wonderful persona, he is

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to be a member of Parliament. He has life and jollity but they are not

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the characteristics people require for Prime Minister and he has to

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make that transmission which will be a difficult one from being much

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loved to being someone who could credibly be a national leader.

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Should he break his word and stand for Parliament in 2015? Politicians

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breaking their word? It would be terrifying but somehow I think he

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breaking their word? It would be would survive. Now it's time for our

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daily quiz. The question for today is: Which of these shoes do not

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belong to Home Secretary, Theresa May. At the end of the show Michael

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will give the correct answer. We can now go live to the Conservative

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conference in Manchester, where we are joined by the Cabinet office

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minister, Francis Maude. You have been described this week by the

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Guardian as the keeper of the modernising flame and by the

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Telegraph as the modernisers' moderniser. When you look at the

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range of policies announced this week, including a crackdown on

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welfare claimants, deporting foreign criminals before appeal, does not

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that feel like the modernising project in reverse? Know,

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modernisation is what the Conservative party has to do all the

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time. All parties have to make themselves on temporary in tune with

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what Britain is today. Some of the work I do in Government does not fit

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in with the conventional view of what modernisation is but that is

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what contemporary Britain requires. It requires a Government that is

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committed to driving down immigration, and all parties agree

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with that. We are doing it very effectively, reforming public

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services, that is what contemporary Britain expects a conservative led

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Government to do. What about the marriage tax break? How does that

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thing modernisation in the context that the Tories have tried to set

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out the Conservative party when David Cameron first became leader?

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That is one of the very first things David Cameron said as leader. He

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said we are going to support and David Cameron said as leader. He

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recognise marriage in the tax system, and that will be the case

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whether it is the marriage between a man and a woman, a woman and a

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woman, or a man and a man, and it was a very modern approach to an

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age-old issue. Marriage is important, it is part of the glue

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that holds society together. Do you accept it is still judging one type

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of relationship as superior? No, it is just saying there is a social

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case for recognising marriage. It is interesting that the party doesn't

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really like the big modernising policies that you have pursued. They

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have driven your vote is arguably to UKIP, gay marriage and the

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commitment on foreign aid. That is nothing to do with modernising.

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Social attitudes have changed. 100 years ago there were plenty of

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people in the Conservative party and other parties that opposed the

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enfranchisement of women. Things move on, the commitment to

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international development I think is one that is honourable and it is the

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high road, saying that actually it is in Britain's national interest to

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be the most visible proponent of eradicating global poverty as well

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as serving our national interest in rooting out those places where

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poverty breeds terrorism. All of this makes sense in our national

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interest. leaders do. They lead. I am proud

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that is a conservative led government.

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public support equal marriage so we have to get this into proportion.

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Lynton Crosby is brilliant, he has a great record of success in fighting

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effective campaigns, disciplined, rigorous, competently run in the way

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people would be entitled to expect from a Conservative party and I am a

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big fan. It looks difference, with big banners everywhere, big

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messages, crying down, immigration down, but when you think back to the

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early conferences with clouds everywhere and the Big Society, it

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has all gone, where is it? It hasn't, you are just making

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pointless assertions. The truth is that we are doing difficult things

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that provide the best hope for the long-term future of the country. It

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is all about an optimistic outlook for the country. By doing difficult

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things now that will give the best hope for people to make the best of

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things now that will give the best their lives in Britain to prosper in

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a competitive world and we need to get things right. That won't always

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be popular. He's attracted large crowds, cheers

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and standing ovations. But this politician's not a Conservative. The

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UKIP leader, Nigel Farage, was working the conference fringe

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yesterday. Here he his explaining his idea for UKIP deals with

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individual Conservative candidates. There is not going to be a deal

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between us and the Conservative Party at the next general election.

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Our voters would not want it, and it would not be in our interests to put

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Mr Cameron back in office when he wants to continue with membership of

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the European Union. But, I am not a wholly unreasonable person. And I do

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recognise that there are some people on the backbenches in the

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Conservative Party, and some in the Labour Party as well. They feel, as

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UKIP feel, on most of these key issues. And I think Peter bone and

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Jacob Rees Mogg and Nadine Dorey 's -- Dorries have made the thought

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that we could have a cooperation that takes place at local level

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between UKIP associations or Tory or even Labour Party local

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associations. Nigel Farage at the Conservative conference, but not

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quite in it. That is the wonderful building that is Manchester town

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Hall he was speaking up. UKIP clearly a big issue at the Tory

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conference and we are joined by the deputy chairman, Neil Hamilton.

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Welcome to the Daily Politics. Nigel Farage is making this deal to

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individual constituencies. What would be the conditions of such a

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deal? I think it was a bit of a teal. -- a bit of a tease. He was

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putting the UKIP cat amongst the Tory pigeons. They have been

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flapping around. I don't think there is a UKIP branch that would want to

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do a deal with the Tories, why would we want to align ourselves to a

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toxic brand? Jacob Rees Mogg's seat, I was talking to the chairman

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there, and he said there was no way the party would do a deal with the

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Tories to give Jacob Rees Mogg a shoo-in for the next Parliament. We

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know that a national deal will not be done. Mr Raju and Mr Cameron have

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made it clear. But you think there will not be any deals at a local

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level -- Nigel Farage and Mr Cameron. You don't think there will

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be any at constituency level? I haven't spoken to every branch

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around the country, but with UKIP going up and the Tories in freefall

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why we would want to arrest our skyrocketing way forward. It sounds

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to me like you would be against it if they constituency wanted to do

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it. I'm not saying he would try to stop it, but you would say no. Nigel

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said that local constituencies are free to enter such a deal if they

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wanted. Our national executive will look at each individual application

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on a one by one basis and decide whether this is a sensible thing to

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do or not. So you could stop the consistency from doing it if it was

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so minded to? We could do that, but I think it's a pretty academic

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discussion. I think it was just Nigel being naughty. I'm delighted

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to be sitting next June, Neil, old friends, but I have to take issue

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with you on this. You say this is an academic discussion -- next to you.

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There was your lead on a public platform promising they would not do

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a deal with the Tories, but on the other hand we might do deals with

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the Tories. You are coming in and saying it is nonsense. Which side

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actually wins? Politicians do frequently say things they do not

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mean. Yesterday to reason they were saying we might be taken out of the

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European Union human rights intervention, and there is no way

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that they would take them out of the European human rights Convention.

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You would have do leave the EU. What was the lie that Nigel Farage -- the

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lie that Nigel Farage told yesterday? He didn't. Heat you said

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he said something he didn't mean. He said we would consider the

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partnership proposal on its merit. It sounds unlikely though. It is

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unlikely. You would fight along with Jacob Rees Mogg, Nadine Dorries, you

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would put UKIP people up against them? I know for certain that in the

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seat of Jacob Rees Mogg, excellent man though he is, I like him along,

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and he adds something to the House of Commons. On personal grounds, I

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would regret his departure. But UKIP of Commons. On personal grounds, I

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is now a political party, not a fringe pressure group. We are out to

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win elections and we are doing it well. What is the evidence you will

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win elections and we are doing it win any seats at the next general

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election? If you look at the local results of May on a parliamentary

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aggregate basis, we would have won several seats. We are going into

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this European election campaign as the odds-on favourite to win

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nationwide. We are looking to cause an earthquake in British politics

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next year and change the ground rules for the 2015 general election.

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It is likely the earthquake you will cause come the general election is

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that you probably won't win a single seat yourself, but you will take

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enough votes away from the Tories to let Ed Miliband in. I've given you

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the names of half a dozen constituencies which we would have

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won. General election, as you know, constituencies which we would have

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as you fall them for the big parties, is very difficult. The

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smaller parties, including the Lib Dems, it is much harder to get a

:24:41.:24:45.

look in. Of course, and the first past the post election system is not

:24:45.:24:48.

look in. Of course, and the first in the interest of the smaller

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parties. I could add that in Eastleigh we had a by-election in

:24:52.:24:56.

February where UKIP was 1500 votes short of winning it and it was the

:24:56.:25:11.

Tories that split our vote. How many do you expect to win? I'm not going

:25:11.:25:14.

to put a figure on it. I might underestimate the numbers. I

:25:14.:25:15.

wouldn't want to. That is how underestimate the numbers. I

:25:15.:25:17.

politics is, you play down expectations. Five? Ten? If you go

:25:17.:25:20.

to the bookmakers they will give you the odds. You talked about the fox

:25:20.:25:27.

going amongst the chickens, has the UKIP Fox been shot because of the

:25:27.:25:30.

issue that will dominate the next general election, which is do you

:25:30.:25:33.

want a referendum on Europe or not? At the moment there is only one

:25:33.:25:37.

party capable of delivering that, which is the Conservative Party. We

:25:37.:25:41.

are going to have a voter referendum long before that because I'm going

:25:41.:25:53.

to turn the European elections into the referendum that David Cameron

:25:53.:25:55.

has kicked into the long grass. That will be people 's opportunity. Are

:25:55.:25:58.

you going to do this single-handed? I have a huge team working with me.

:25:58.:26:00.

It's not really a referendum though, is it. What is it about some

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of your members. We have had talk of bongo bongo land, women as sluts,

:26:04.:26:11.

of your members. We have had talk of and now you're chief spin doctor

:26:11.:26:16.

says that a journalist is of some form of ethnic extraction. It is

:26:16.:26:20.

pretty desperate stuff. We don't know the background, evidently. He

:26:20.:26:24.

was taking a message on a noisy train and could not catch the name

:26:24.:26:30.

of the journalist that the party official was going to meet. He knew

:26:30.:26:34.

that it was a name from the Indian subcontinent of some kind, so all he

:26:34.:26:38.

said is what is of of ethnic extraction. Is that not a PC phrase

:26:38.:26:41.

question what he could have said Black, Asian or more pejorative word

:26:41.:26:48.

-- is that not a PC phrase? We all of some form ethnic extraction.

:26:48.:26:54.

What's wrong with it? If I wanted to say, by the way, Neil Hamilton is on

:26:54.:26:59.

the train, and I forget what he looks like and he is of some form of

:26:59.:27:03.

ethnic extraction, I would use that for you? That is ridiculous. This is

:27:03.:27:09.

a bad smell. I can tell you what is happening here. This is a desperate

:27:09.:27:13.

attempt by the establishment to stop UKIP's rise in its tracks. Here is a

:27:13.:27:18.

photograph which purports to show Nigel Farage with a Hitler

:27:18.:27:24.

moustache. It is not a joke. He has a halo as well. This is what the

:27:24.:27:28.

Murdoch press is doing because it's also in the Sun newspaper today.

:27:28.:27:31.

They are desperately scared that UKIP is going to shoot the Tories's

:27:31.:27:38.

Fox come the next election. It is not them who want to see the

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European Union question you better take it up better with him -- with

:27:41.:27:45.

him, you know him better than I do. Would you use the phrase some form

:27:45.:27:52.

of ethnic extraction? What's wrong with it? That's caught you out.

:27:52.:27:56.

Well, I was just letting it hang there. I am happy to take it to the

:27:56.:28:03.

borough public opinion. You just have, on the Daily Politics. Neil

:28:03.:28:06.

Hamilton, thank you. The blonde bombshell has hit the conference. He

:28:06.:28:10.

admitted on TV last night that he did not know the price of milk, but

:28:10.:28:14.

he seemed unperturbed as he received the usual adulation in the

:28:14.:28:19.

conference hall. Good morning everybody in Manchester, great joy

:28:19.:28:25.

to be back here. Not so long ago, my friends, and we welcome all sorts of

:28:25.:28:28.

wonderful luminaries to City Hall, and a few months ago I welcome the

:28:28.:28:35.

former French prime ministers. -- Prime Minister. He cruised in with

:28:35.:28:38.

his sizeable retinue of very distinguished fellows, and he shook

:28:38.:28:47.

hands, and we had a tete-a-tete, and he told me that he was now the mayor

:28:47.:28:54.

of Bordeaux and he do things like that once you've been Prime

:28:54.:28:57.

Minister. Very good idea, in my view. Joke! Joke! And he said to

:28:57.:29:06.

accelerate the programme of house-building dramatically, and

:29:06.:29:09.

it's time we considered allowing companies to make tax-free loans to

:29:09.:29:16.

their employees to help them with the cost of their rent deposit. How

:29:16.:29:23.

about that? A brainy policy, yes? Put it into the budget

:29:23.:29:29.

considerations. Can I also ask to my friend, the Chancellor, to look at

:29:29.:29:34.

the baleful effects of stamp duty in London, and possibly elsewhere? It

:29:34.:29:41.

is called stamp duty for a reason, because it's stamping on the figures

:29:41.:29:45.

-- fingers of those who are trying to climb the property ladder. The

:29:45.:29:48.

choice of the next election is very simple. It's between the fool 's

:29:48.:29:53.

gold of Labour gimmicks, which we all understand and have all fought

:29:53.:29:56.

before, and a government that is willing to take tough and sensible

:29:56.:30:03.

decisions. To cut unnecessary spending, and make the key

:30:03.:30:08.

investments in transport and infrastructure and housing and in

:30:08.:30:10.

our communities that will take this country forward. I know what I want.

:30:10.:30:17.

What I want as mayor of the greatest city on earth. I think I know what

:30:17.:30:22.

you want. Am I right? I know that we can do it. So let's go over it over

:30:22.:30:30.

the next two years. Cut that yellow Liberal Democrat albatross from

:30:30.:30:33.

around our necks and let it drop into the sea, by working flat out

:30:33.:30:45.

for David Cameron as Prime Minister and outright conservative victory in

:30:45.:30:55.

2015. Aki very much. Boris Johnson speaking this morning. In his

:30:55.:31:12.

Conference speech yesterday, George Osborne urged Conservative party

:31:12.:31:15.

activists to back the government's High Speed Rail plans. The

:31:15.:31:18.

Chancellor told the conference in Manchester that HS2 would bring

:31:18.:31:20.

"more jobs and prosperity" to Britain. But were party members

:31:20.:31:23.

convinced? We asked Adam to find out. When we did this at the Labour

:31:23.:31:32.

conference last week, it was 50/50. And the box fell over, and the balls

:31:32.:31:41.

fell out. HS2, construct or cancel? We are builders, definitely. Will it

:31:41.:31:50.

definitely happen? I don't want it but I think we need it. Construct.

:31:50.:32:03.

It is only going to benefit a small minority of people, with such

:32:03.:32:06.

disruption and it will not happen for 20 or 30 years, we need that

:32:06.:32:11.

money ploughing into the economy now. Are you pro HS2? I am a

:32:11.:32:20.

constructor. It will make a huge difference because we have capacity

:32:20.:32:25.

constraints, we need to link the city is better. Is Boris signed up

:32:25.:32:33.

to HS2? You would have to ask Boris. I am not a fan of trains. They

:32:33.:32:40.

always go to one destination, don't they? It is massively overcrowded,

:32:40.:32:47.

it is not about speed, it is about capacity and we need good

:32:47.:32:53.

connectivity to Sheffield and Huddersfield where I live. I think

:32:53.:32:58.

it is unnecessary and I don't think the capacity argument adds up

:32:58.:33:05.

either. I have changed my cancel to construct. In the space of one

:33:05.:33:17.

morning? My polling is only what other people think. I don't trust

:33:17.:33:21.

morning? My polling is only what big projects like Concorde or the

:33:21.:33:28.

millennium Dome, they tend not to go well. David, would you like to take

:33:28.:33:35.

part in a Daily Politics survey? I am surprised at the moment you have

:33:35.:33:41.

more on that side than on that side. Maybe it is stuck on a slow train.

:33:41.:33:51.

It is a huge amount of money to be spending without the infrastructure

:33:51.:33:59.

in the area, so cancel. Construct. It is about making the capacity

:33:59.:34:05.

doubles. There we go, a massive majority in favour of construction.

:34:05.:34:10.

I have to say, while a lot of people were inspired by George Osborne's

:34:10.:34:19.

pep talk on the subject. Interesting, I didn't think there

:34:19.:34:23.

would be such an overwhelming majority. Do you agree with them? I

:34:23.:34:30.

am sceptical. I don't think the case has been made as well as it should

:34:30.:34:36.

be. Goodness knows what the cost will be in ten years. The cost will

:34:36.:34:43.

go up and up. I remember the row in the House of Lords and indeed the

:34:43.:34:47.

House of Commons a little while ago about the west line fiasco with the

:34:47.:34:53.

Department of Transport really being seen to be incapable. The transport

:34:53.:34:57.

Department of Transport really being Secretary now says we have the

:34:57.:34:59.

Olympic dream team running the project, said David Higgins and Lord

:34:59.:35:07.

Deayton. Does that reassure you a little more? Yes, but there are

:35:07.:35:12.

still big questions to be answered and the Government has to go the

:35:12.:35:16.

extra mile to satisfy sceptics that this is really good value for money.

:35:16.:35:22.

We should be sceptical, this was a project from the last Labour

:35:22.:35:27.

Government and as a decent Tory I am always sceptical! Labour look as if

:35:27.:35:34.

they are wobbling in terms of value for money, would you encourage Tory

:35:34.:35:40.

MPs to back Labour if they withdraw support for HS2? The Government need

:35:40.:35:46.

to do more explaining of the costs and making us convinced because it

:35:46.:35:50.

does have a chequered track record, that it can deliver on budget, on

:35:50.:35:57.

time. The problem is that supporters of HS2 say we will never build

:35:57.:36:02.

anything in this country, there will always be scepticism about whether a

:36:02.:36:09.

project is value for money. Like Heathrow's third runway. Why is HS2

:36:09.:36:16.

so much more important? To quote Patrick McLoughlin, he said the

:36:16.:36:20.

high-speed line would leave the country stronger and provide a boost

:36:20.:36:24.

for the great cities like Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield,

:36:24.:36:29.

Nottingham, Derby. This will create a link between the north and the

:36:29.:36:33.

South and the people down south, he says, should stop moaning. One

:36:33.:36:39.

conference speech is not enough. This is such a massive project, it

:36:39.:36:45.

need selling to the hilt and I don't think we have done that yet. Now,

:36:45.:36:57.

you never know who you're going to bump into at Tory party conference.

:36:57.:37:00.

One minute you could be rubbing shoulders with Eric Pickles, the

:37:00.:37:03.

next hanging out with Alastair Campbell. Yes, that's right Tony

:37:03.:37:05.

Blair's former Director of Communication,s Alastair Campbell.

:37:06.:37:08.

We found him enjoying the stands in the exhibition hall. So what on

:37:08.:37:12.

earth is a former Labour spin doctor doing at the Conservative

:37:12.:37:14.

conference? It is my first Tory conference for 20 years and I am

:37:14.:37:17.

here to have a row with loads of Tories, and secondly to persuade

:37:17.:37:21.

them to do a U-turn on the U-turn David Cameron did and get serious

:37:21.:37:25.

about dealing with alcohol abuse in Britain. Why did David Cameron say

:37:25.:37:39.

he would bring in minimum unit pricing and why has he since decided

:37:39.:37:48.

he will not? In Scotland it is considered a more serious issue with

:37:48.:37:52.

more worrying figures in the north. I personally support it. You will

:37:52.:37:57.

not find many students in favourable as a nation we know it is a concern.

:37:57.:38:04.

Are you going to get drunk tonight? Why, are you coming along? No! That

:38:04.:38:19.

is a bad picture of Ed Miliband, he looks like desperate Dan. What is

:38:19.:38:30.

funny is that he said a lot of the Tories were deciding which beer to

:38:31.:38:34.

choose, and he whispered to me they were all the same. You lose your

:38:34.:38:39.

argument when you start finger jabbing. So you are selling, you

:38:39.:38:46.

have the Labour beer here and the Tory beer over here. Margaret

:38:46.:38:50.

Thatcher is the God of the beer with body. ELVIS SINGS are you going to

:38:50.:39:33.

sing with me? I'm sorry, sir, I have got to go and

:39:33.:39:40.

do my show. Will you support me on minimum unit pricing for alcohol?

:39:40.:39:46.

Why did Cameron say he would do it and then decide, after a Cabinet

:39:46.:39:51.

discussion they claim... You know better than me how these things work

:39:51.:39:56.

behind the scenes. Don't you think we have a real problem with alcohol

:39:56.:40:02.

abuse in Britain? There are a number of areas we can try to address and

:40:02.:40:09.

needless to say we must look carefully at some of those issues. I

:40:09.:40:14.

have had a nice time, more importantly many people agreed with

:40:14.:40:19.

me and I will take that back to Alcohol Concern because this is a

:40:19.:40:27.

fight we can win. Who would have thought Alistair Campbell could find

:40:27.:40:32.

inspiration in an Elvis song. What about this minimum alcohol pricing,

:40:32.:40:39.

was Mr Cameron right to do a U-turn on it? Firstly I want to say that

:40:39.:40:45.

Alistair Campbell has done a huge amount of good in terms of attention

:40:45.:40:52.

to alcohol problems and mental illness so I am looking forward to

:40:53.:40:56.

taking his advice when I share a platform with him at the Cheltenham

:40:56.:41:01.

Festival in a couple of weeks. We won't be singing Elvis. Was he right

:41:01.:41:08.

to do a U-turn? All prime ministers are allowed to try something and

:41:08.:41:11.

change their minds. If you enter are allowed to try something and

:41:11.:41:15.

those things with a fixed point of view, it means you cannot take the

:41:15.:41:19.

advice that inevitably comes when these things become a matter of

:41:19.:41:23.

public discussion. Should he have changed his mind? I think he

:41:23.:41:27.

probably should because I don't think that was the right way of

:41:27.:41:33.

doing it. You can explain that to Alistair Campbell in Cheltenham when

:41:33.:41:46.

you see him. Now - they're terribly helpful

:41:46.:42:04.

people these Conservatives. Earlier in the week they announced they'd be

:42:04.:42:07.

extending Help To Buy then yesterday the Chancellor announced "help to

:42:07.:42:10.

work" This is the latest scheme to get the long term unemployed back to

:42:10.:42:14.

work here's Jo Co with all the details. Currently, if you've been

:42:14.:42:20.

unemployed for up to a year and want to claim the dole the you have to go

:42:20.:42:24.

on the Work Programme. This scheme provides training and help in

:42:24.:42:27.

getting back into work. But those who are still jobless after two

:42:27.:42:31.

years on the scheme will now face a tougher regime as a condition for

:42:31.:42:34.

staying on benefits. Yesterday the Chancellor announced the 'Help to

:42:34.:42:37.

Work' programme. Under the plans, the 200,000 people a year who failed

:42:37.:42:41.

to get a job under the Work Programme will lose benefits unless

:42:41.:42:47.

they take up one of three options. Six months of community work - such

:42:47.:42:51.

as making meals for the elderly, cleaning up litter and graffiti or

:42:51.:43:06.

charity work. Sign on at the JobCentre every day to search for

:43:06.:43:09.

work or undergo intense training or rehabilitation. Refusal to do so

:43:09.:43:12.

will result in the loss of benefits for up to three months. Let's have a

:43:12.:43:16.

listen to what the Work and Pensions Secretary had to to say about his

:43:16.:43:20.

plans earlier today. Today I want to tell you about those who are not

:43:20.:43:22.

plans earlier today. Today I want to committing to their obligations of

:43:22.:43:25.

work. Prior to the work programme we will pilot a mandatory attendance

:43:25.:43:29.

centre where selected individuals will receive expert support and

:43:29.:43:33.

supervision while they search and apply for jobs. That is from nine

:43:33.:43:40.

o'clock to five o'clock, 35 hours a week for up to six months simulating

:43:40.:43:46.

the working day. These pilots will be targeted at claimants who will

:43:46.:43:51.

benefit from the intense support, one pilot before the Work

:43:51.:44:03.

Programme, and one after. Alongside this, this marks the something for

:44:03.:44:13.

-- the end of the something for nothing culture. And the Secretary

:44:14.:44:24.

of State for Work and Pensions, Iain Duncan Smith, joins me now. Coming

:44:24.:44:27.

up with measures to get the unemployed back to work, that has

:44:27.:44:34.

become your life 's work so why did George Osborne make the big policy

:44:34.:44:39.

announcement yesterday? We agreed to divide up the announcements, so I am

:44:39.:44:44.

dealing with the stuff prior to the Work Programme, which will

:44:44.:44:49.

eventually be enormously helpful in making sure that we don't have to

:44:49.:45:00.

have so much work so together they make a complete package. He got the

:45:00.:45:07.

big one, didn't he? No, I believe the big one is about us targeting

:45:07.:45:11.

people who are looking like they are not able to get themselves ready for

:45:11.:45:15.

work, they are struggling, before they even get to the Work

:45:15.:45:22.

Programme, which is revolutionary. We are asking JobCentre staff to

:45:22.:45:25.

really start looking and profiling the people in front of them so they

:45:25.:45:29.

spend more time with the people who need help to get them ready and make

:45:29.:45:34.

sure that in the course of that they are not also doing something else

:45:34.:45:39.

and that is critical to making both announcements successful. As you

:45:39.:45:46.

know better than most, it has re-stirred the bad blood stories

:45:46.:45:51.

between you and the Chancellor, going back before the coalition.

:45:51.:45:54.

What do you make of this claim, which seems incredible to me, in

:45:54.:45:59.

this new book that the Chancellor regards you as thick? Well, I heard

:45:59.:46:06.

and saw him in the last couple of days saying it is completely untrue.

:46:06.:46:11.

Honestly, I've been in politics long enough and I've had plenty of

:46:11.:46:14.

insults thrown at me. The Chancellor, George and me, are very

:46:14.:46:17.

good friends and I don't think he's ever said it. If anybody believes

:46:17.:46:20.

that kind of thing out there, that's fine, I'm in good company. Margaret

:46:20.:46:27.

Thatcher was told he was not -- was told she was not intelligent enough

:46:27.:46:32.

to run the country, and so was Sir Winston Churchill. I've got the

:46:32.:46:34.

determination and drive and I will let others debate the level of

:46:34.:46:38.

intelligence I have. So he does not need to think? -- he does not think

:46:38.:46:45.

you are thick. I'm not too worried about it. You are putting great

:46:45.:46:52.

emphasis on people who are long-term unemployed to sign up and go to job

:46:52.:46:56.

centres to do a lot of things to stay at the job centres. You talked

:46:56.:46:59.

about going from nine to five. Is that because you think a lot of

:46:59.:47:05.

people on welfare or benefits are actually also working in the black

:47:05.:47:10.

economy? This is not directly set for that, but we do know two things

:47:10.:47:12.

economy? This is not directly set about this. When I go around the job

:47:12.:47:16.

centres, and you know this because you've done a lot of work in this

:47:16.:47:19.

area in the last few years, and often wrote about it, well in

:47:19.:47:23.

advance of many of us, but the reality is that what happens out

:47:23.:47:26.

there is that some people when they have left work for different issues

:47:26.:47:29.

and problems and they fall out of the habit of work, they lose morale

:47:29.:47:34.

and they cannot focus on it, really it is about getting them back ready

:47:34.:47:38.

for work. But there are also some, we know that, who are out there and

:47:38.:47:41.

deliberately playing the system. We know that, that is what the job

:47:41.:47:45.

centre staff tell us and we have a new sanction for them. We also have

:47:45.:47:49.

the mandatory work programme where we believe they are trying to do

:47:49.:47:55.

something else. We found that 70% of people just disappeared off the

:47:55.:47:57.

benefit role. This is about accommodation thing -- a combination

:47:57.:48:02.

of things, it's about getting people not ready for work ready for work

:48:02.:48:08.

before they fall out of the habit completely. You have been unemployed

:48:08.:48:13.

twice before. Do you think picking up litter or serving meals to older

:48:13.:48:17.

people help you find a job? Know, the point I am making is that the

:48:17.:48:24.

vast majority of people who fall into unemployment are incredibly

:48:24.:48:29.

motivated, something like 75 or 80% backing work in six months. You

:48:29.:48:32.

don't really have to do huge amounts with them because they are out there

:48:32.:48:36.

working and they just need a bit of assistance, not much. You then begin

:48:36.:48:37.

working and they just need a bit of to deal with those who are a

:48:37.:48:42.

distance from going back to work. It is this group, and they do it in

:48:42.:48:46.

Germany now, where they profile better than we do, to look at those

:48:46.:48:50.

who have issues and problems that are causing them to fall away from

:48:50.:48:54.

work. It is that group who you want to get back into the practice. To

:48:54.:48:58.

begin with, we want them to be in there if necessary, signing in, but

:48:58.:49:02.

also working with the staff every day to look for jobs. After the work

:49:02.:49:07.

programme, the bit about doing community work, that comes after two

:49:07.:49:11.

more years where they might struggle. Now it's the time to get

:49:11.:49:14.

them to do something every day that gives them a sense of purpose in

:49:14.:49:17.

their lives. That is really what it's all about. But you have already

:49:17.:49:24.

got this work programme, and now we have the help to work programme.

:49:24.:49:29.

They're all manners of programmes. There are almost as many programmes

:49:29.:49:33.

as unemployed people. It seems a lot of these programmes don't really

:49:33.:49:38.

work. The latest figures shows that fewer than 15% of those on the work

:49:38.:49:42.

programme have found themselves in work for at least six months. 15%.

:49:42.:49:49.

Hold on. Remember, we don't pay any of the providers until they have

:49:49.:49:53.

sustained a six-month outcome. That can take up to two starts to get to

:49:53.:49:58.

six months, but the reality is, of those going back into work is a much

:49:58.:50:02.

bigger number. There are 400,000 people now of those that they have

:50:03.:50:07.

taken on who are backing work, far more than just a six-month outcome.

:50:07.:50:11.

And remember, it's not just about getting them into work, the work

:50:11.:50:15.

programme sees three quarters of those on the first tranche who have

:50:15.:50:21.

left benefits. So it is about getting people off benefits and

:50:21.:50:24.

getting them into work. Three quarters of those have either gone

:50:24.:50:27.

back into work, sustained work, or have left the benefit roster. That

:50:27.:50:32.

is a major success. Bear in mind previously that these providers who

:50:32.:50:34.

is a major success. Bear in mind paid up front, lots of money, they

:50:34.:50:37.

never achieved anything. This is more successful than any other

:50:37.:50:41.

programme. You and your party always going on about the need to make it

:50:42.:50:45.

paid to work and it should always be more benefit -- beneficial than

:50:45.:50:50.

spending time on the dole, which is fine, why therefore have you allowed

:50:50.:50:55.

the minimum wage under the Coalition Government to fall in real terms?

:50:55.:50:58.

You are increasing it today, but it's only by pennies. If you really

:50:58.:51:03.

wanted to make it worthwhile, have a proper, higher minimum wage. Most of

:51:03.:51:07.

these people will go on to minimum wage jobs to begin with. So make it

:51:07.:51:11.

worth their while. Pay them a decent minimum wage. Well, the reason we

:51:11.:51:18.

have raised it is to start achieving the objective. But as we bring in

:51:18.:51:22.

various other changes the idea is to ensure that that first entry into

:51:22.:51:25.

work does make work pay more than being on benefits. That will happen.

:51:25.:51:30.

The debate about the minimum wage and living wage, I am clear about

:51:30.:51:34.

it. In my own department and with the contractors now, we paid a

:51:34.:51:41.

living wage. This is a debate not just with us, it's about the Labour

:51:41.:51:48.

Party. Why let it fall? We have raised the minimum wage. Not in real

:51:48.:51:55.

terms. It was the Tories who let the minimum wage fall. In picking up the

:51:55.:51:58.

pieces of a disastrous economy, first and foremost we have to ensure

:51:58.:52:02.

people get back to work. As we pick the economy we might make the

:52:02.:52:05.

changes that are necessary, but right now, honestly, the key thing

:52:05.:52:10.

is to get jobs produced. We have over 1.4 million new private jet --

:52:10.:52:14.

sector jobs that have been created as a result of the changes made. You

:52:14.:52:19.

can't do everything at once. I'm not resistant to the argument, I'm

:52:19.:52:22.

simply saying that the priority now is to get people back to work, as we

:52:22.:52:27.

know that jobs tend to develop and you'll pay tends to go up as you

:52:27.:52:31.

develop your skills. As you know, we can't cover everything in one

:52:31.:52:34.

interview, and I hope you can come back and we can cover some of the

:52:34.:52:37.

ground. Iain Duncan Smith, thank you. And with us now is Iain Duncan

:52:37.:52:45.

Smith's opposite number, Labour's Liam Byrne. Are you, and do you

:52:45.:52:49.

welcome a policy from the Conservatives that could finally

:52:49.:52:51.

address the problem of long-term unemployment? Yes, if we had a

:52:51.:52:57.

policy that we thought would do the job, we would welcome it with open

:52:57.:53:01.

arms, but that's not where we are. Why? Because the plan we heard from

:53:01.:53:06.

the Chancellor yesterday would only affect 2% of job seekers, and

:53:06.:53:10.

frankly that when make much of a difference. In terms of long-term

:53:10.:53:13.

unemployment, people who have been out of work for two years, the

:53:13.:53:18.

Tories argue that the number of households were no member has ever

:53:18.:53:24.

worked doubled under labour from 136,000 in June 1997 to 269,000 in

:53:24.:53:31.

June 2010. Do you accept that? Obviously the recession had an

:53:31.:53:36.

impact on unemployment. So, it doubled, on what they are trying to

:53:36.:53:39.

do is alleviate the number of people who are out of work longer than two

:53:39.:53:41.

do is alleviate the number of people years by taking these three stages?

:53:41.:53:45.

Do you not support that? We don't think what they have put on the

:53:45.:53:48.

table will make anywhere like enough difference. What evidence do you

:53:48.:53:52.

have for that? Look what's happened over the last couple of weeks. They

:53:53.:53:56.

show that 1 million people have now been failed by the work programme,

:53:57.:54:04.

and eight out of ten people who float through the work programme

:54:04.:54:07.

don't go on to get a steady job. Even the Chancellor of the Exchequer

:54:07.:54:09.

does not think Iain Duncan Smith is clever enough to do his job, and

:54:09.:54:13.

said when he came to the spending review that the DWP was failing in

:54:13.:54:17.

its back to work programme. This is not just the arguments of Liam

:54:17.:54:21.

Byrne, these are the arguments of the Chancellor of the Exchequer as

:54:21.:54:25.

well. Do you welcome the fact that workless households are at record

:54:25.:54:28.

lows, despite the fact we have continued to be in a recession until

:54:28.:54:33.

recently? Any progress on unemployment is good news. That must

:54:33.:54:37.

be as a result of government policy then. You have a million people out

:54:37.:54:41.

of work long term and a million young people out of work. You have a

:54:41.:54:45.

welfare bill that is £20 billion higher than before -- forecast.

:54:45.:54:49.

There is no way you can look at the figures and say well done, great

:54:49.:54:53.

job. That is why we said you need a much bigger, bolder, more radical

:54:53.:54:57.

approach. We have said there should be a two-year limit on the amount of

:54:57.:55:00.

time you can spend on jobseeker's allowance, and at that stage will

:55:00.:55:04.

benefit payment should stop and you should get a job in the private

:55:04.:55:07.

sector, and if you can't find one, we will invest in making sure their

:55:07.:55:11.

minimum wage opportunities. You would like to go for a bigger,

:55:11.:55:14.

bolder programme. But let's look again at the fact that the number of

:55:14.:55:18.

workless households, which was a big issue that you made something else

:55:18.:55:33.

-- of, is at record lows, that must have something to do with the

:55:33.:55:36.

success in some way of the welfare reforms? The unemployment figures

:55:36.:55:37.

speak for themselves. Just the workless households, because that's

:55:37.:55:39.

an indicator. You cannot duck the fact, and this is the reality, is

:55:39.:55:42.

there 1 million people who are out of work long-term, 1 million young

:55:42.:55:45.

people out of work, and those figures aren't moving. You have a

:55:45.:55:48.

work programme that we were promised would be the biggest back to work

:55:48.:55:51.

programme in human history, so big you could see it from space. We now

:55:51.:55:56.

know from the figures last year it failed 1 million people, and eight

:55:56.:55:59.

out of ten people who go through it don't actually get a steady job. You

:55:59.:56:02.

said after two years, and that is wrong. This is after three years.

:56:02.:56:11.

Remember that someone is out of work for a year, then they go onto the

:56:11.:56:14.

work programme for two years, and at that stage, after three years on

:56:14.:56:16.

welfare eight out of ten people that stage, after three years on

:56:16.:56:18.

don't get a steady job. That is a programme that is failing

:56:18.:56:21.

catastrophically. What do you say to that, Michael? Would pay Labour

:56:21.:56:29.

government spend more? You want to achieve more but spend less? We want

:56:29.:56:34.

the welfare bill to go down completely. It is a track record of

:56:34.:56:39.

failure here because they have not got the country back to work. The

:56:39.:56:43.

problem is that the Labour Party goes round the country denying it

:56:43.:56:47.

has anything to do with the economic circumstances that it left behind,

:56:47.:56:53.

and you are the man who said that, notoriously, infamously, that there

:56:53.:56:58.

is no money left. So how can we find anything that the Labour Party says

:56:58.:57:04.

credible if you can achieve more and spend less? Three years ago we were

:57:04.:57:07.

promised a welfare revolution and it was collapsed. We heard a 13 under

:57:07.:57:16.

Labour. Is employment going up or down at the moment? I think the

:57:16.:57:21.

statistics say it is going up? There's not enough work to go round,

:57:21.:57:28.

and that is why... Where is the trend? Up or down? Wages have not

:57:28.:57:33.

risen as fast as prices in the last 13 months. In my constituency, that

:57:33.:57:36.

means that living standards are being hammered. What does the

:57:37.:57:38.

means that living standards are government used to do to help? Give

:57:38.:57:41.

a tax cut to millionaires while everybody else has tax and benefit

:57:41.:57:46.

changes that means they are £820 a year worse. This is a government

:57:46.:57:49.

that stands up the privileged few while the rest of us take a kicking.

:57:49.:57:54.

Your proposal for a jobs guarantee scheme, can you see yourselves

:57:54.:57:56.

Your proposal for a jobs guarantee taking away the benefits of those

:57:56.:58:01.

who take -- do not take away a guaranteed job? Yes. There you go,

:58:01.:58:06.

you can get a straight answer. He sounds almost like a Tory at times.

:58:06.:58:10.

They may say there is no money around, but at this party conference

:58:10.:58:12.

season they have been spending it around, but at this party conference

:58:12.:58:17.

the parties like never before. Time to go, but the answer to the quiz

:58:17.:58:20.

was which of these shoes do not belong to to reason me -- to raise a

:58:20.:58:29.

May. -- to raise a May. YELLOW the wellies. It has to be those black

:58:29.:58:37.

things up the top. They belong to a Conservative MP called Cheryl

:58:37.:58:39.

Murray. The one o'clock News is starting over on BBC One o'clock

:58:39.:58:42.

news is starting over on BBC One now. We are here very early

:58:42.:58:47.

tomorrow, at 10:30am. You will have to get up early. David Cameron's big

:58:47.:58:53.

speech, we will bring you live in an to get up early. David Cameron's big

:58:53.:58:55.

interrupted tomorrow. Goodbye.

:58:55.:58:56.

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