07/11/2013 Daily Politics


07/11/2013

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 07/11/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Afternoon folks, welcome to The Daily Politics. "Extraordinarily

:00:34.:00:40.

poor", "alarmingly weak"... A committee of MPs lays into the

:00:41.:00:43.

management of the Government's flagship welfare reform, Universal

:00:44.:00:47.

Credit. But who's to blame - ministers or civil servants? Only

:00:48.:00:53.

15% of us bothered to vote for them - but a year on, have Police

:00:54.:00:56.

Commissioners made any difference? Where should more NHS money be

:00:57.:00:58.

All that in the next hour. And with spent?

:00:59.:01:19.

All that in the next hour. And with us for the duration today, a woman

:01:20.:01:23.

who once held one of the great offices of state, appointed today to

:01:24.:01:26.

one of the great offices of television, our Guest of the Day on

:01:27.:01:30.

The Daily Politics, it's former Home Secretary Jacqui Smith. It is good

:01:31.:01:42.

to see you in the daylight, I normally see you late on on a

:01:43.:01:47.

Thursday night. Let's start with interest rates - we've just had a

:01:48.:01:51.

decision from the Bank of England that they are to be held at the

:01:52.:01:54.

historic low rate of half a percentage point for the 56th

:01:55.:01:58.

consecutive month. But with the economy now growing and unemployment

:01:59.:02:07.

falling, how much longer? We're joined now by City analyst David

:02:08.:02:08.

Buik. joined now by City analyst David

:02:09.:02:28.

caught between a rock and a hard place. It is only five or six months

:02:29.:02:33.

ago that he told us that he is forward guidance meant there would

:02:34.:02:36.

be no change in interest rates until 2016. Unfortunately, he did not know

:02:37.:02:43.

that the UK economy was about to pick up the cudgel and go for it. We

:02:44.:02:48.

had it confirmed on Monday by the CBI that growth will probably go to

:02:49.:02:55.

1.4% this year, 2.4% next year, 2.6% this year afterwards. And now, of

:02:56.:03:00.

course, with inflation running at 2.7% and wages only at 0.7% on an

:03:01.:03:05.

annualised basis, something has to give. So, the markets have told him,

:03:06.:03:11.

thank you very much, Mr Carney, but I'm afraid the Guild market at the

:03:12.:03:16.

short end, up to two years, indicates that we could have

:03:17.:03:19.

something of an interest rate hike as early

:03:20.:03:36.

something of an interest rate hike young people, quite rightly, to fill

:03:37.:03:40.

their boots, so to suddenly ask them to service their debts at a higher

:03:41.:03:44.

level, with less disposable income, it is not a quandary I would like to

:03:45.:03:53.

be in. Indeed, but maybe Mr Carney got misled as to how strong growth

:03:54.:03:57.

was going to be because he read the Bank of England's forecasts, which

:03:58.:04:01.

are nearly always wrong on these matters, and particularly on

:04:02.:04:05.

inflation. Point is, these forecasts of growth, even they might now be an

:04:06.:04:11.

underestimate . we could be heading for closer to 3% growth next year.

:04:12.:04:16.

That is a return to normality, so does it not follow that interest

:04:17.:04:20.

rates therefore have to return to normal? Well, personally, I think

:04:21.:04:27.

they have two. Also, so long as night follows day,

:04:28.:04:45.

they have two. Also, so long as cannot have interest rates at .5%,

:04:46.:04:48.

because you are putting a huge burden on any government, of

:04:49.:04:51.

whatever political persuasion, to deal with welfare and pensions. And

:04:52.:04:56.

that has to be addressed. But I think for the next two or three

:04:57.:05:00.

months, Mark Carney has got to be steadfast, that he wants to talk

:05:01.:05:06.

about forward guidance. Any kind of threat of any hike in interest rates

:05:07.:05:09.

over the next couple of months I suspect may be dangerous, but there

:05:10.:05:13.

is no question, if we are going to improve to the degree which you are

:05:14.:05:17.

suggesting, and I agree with, interest rates cannot remain at that

:05:18.:05:21.

level for an indefinite period of time. The Governor of the Bank of

:05:22.:05:29.

England has been an independent figure since Gordon Brown and Ed

:05:30.:05:34.

Balls made all of those changes, and he is now in a position where he

:05:35.:05:38.

could become, in the run-up to the election,

:05:39.:05:55.

could become, in the run-up to the difficult position for him. It is,

:05:56.:05:57.

but they think it is absolutely right that he maintains that

:05:58.:06:01.

independence and makes the judgment on the basis of the forward guidance

:06:02.:06:06.

that he has set out and the views of the monetary policy committee. But

:06:07.:06:08.

you are right that this is problematic. Of course, it was Ed

:06:09.:06:14.

Miliband who said, you can have growth in the economy, but actually

:06:15.:06:18.

you will still have a cost of living squeeze. Any rise in interest rates

:06:19.:06:22.

will add to that squeeze on people's mortgage repayments. You may have

:06:23.:06:27.

growth, but you have also got rising prices, and the cost of my house is

:06:28.:06:34.

going up. You could also, I suppose, have stronger growth, as David and I

:06:35.:06:38.

were talking about, between now and the election, but unemployment may

:06:39.:06:43.

not come below 7%, because in this recession, not nearly as many people

:06:44.:06:45.

lost their jobs. This recession, not nearly as many people

:06:46.:07:06.

level of employment that there are many people who would want to work

:07:07.:07:10.

more hours. That is the first problem. But also, you have to

:07:11.:07:15.

identify the conflict which comes between what Mark Carney has set out

:07:16.:07:19.

in the forward guidance, which is the unemployment cut off, for which

:07:20.:07:24.

she was much praised, incidentally, for saying, let's set this guidance

:07:25.:07:29.

clearly, and what we have already begun to hear, which is a chorus of

:07:30.:07:34.

people saying, lower inflationary pressures, at what point are

:07:35.:07:38.

interest rates going to start rising? Is it possible to have a

:07:39.:07:41.

smooth, gentle rise in interest rates? So, there is a conflict,

:07:42.:07:46.

which does put him in a very politicised position, and also plays

:07:47.:07:49.

into this whole problem of the squeeze on people's pockets. In

:07:50.:07:53.

America, where all of this originally came from, the US Federal

:07:54.:07:56.

Now it's time for our quiz. Reserve steps

:07:57.:08:18.

Now it's time for our quiz. And which of the following

:08:19.:08:21.

cost-saving suggestions has been proposed to councils by the Tax

:08:22.:08:24.

Payers' Alliance. Do they want to... A) Ask dustmen to deliver the post

:08:25.:08:28.

on their rounds? B) Graze sheep in parks to save money on lawn mowers?

:08:29.:08:31.

C) Use children's sand pits to grit the roads? D) Encourage badgers to

:08:32.:08:35.

put up municipal goal posts? At the end of the show, Jacqui will give us

:08:36.:08:37.

the correct answer. Universal Credit was supposed to be

:08:38.:08:46.

the Government's big plan to restructure our unwieldy benefits

:08:47.:08:50.

system and save us money. A lot of money. But the Government's flagship

:08:51.:08:54.

reform is, in fact, guilty of "shocking" failures in management

:08:55.:08:57.

which have already wasted at least ?140 million. The savaging has come

:08:58.:09:03.

from Parliament's Public Accounts Committee, which has voiced doubts

:09:04.:09:06.

about whether Iain Duncan Smith's project can still be

:09:07.:09:07.

the programme has been described as extraordinarily poor, oversight

:09:08.:09:28.

alarmingly weak, and ?425 million of expenditure to date likely to be

:09:29.:09:31.

written off, according to your report, so how did it happen? I

:09:32.:09:35.

think they have been driven by a political imperative to meet

:09:36.:09:41.

deadlines, date deadlines, and I think that is a mistake. It is a

:09:42.:09:45.

very compact programme, one which has cross-party support, so there is

:09:46.:09:49.

no argument about the policy direction, but it is very

:09:50.:09:54.

compensated, and they simply should not have been driven by timelines.

:09:55.:09:59.

Secondly, they thought it was a little IT project, and actually,

:10:00.:10:02.

this is a big transformation, winning six benefits into one,

:10:03.:10:07.

trying to change the way in which you work, to make work pay, which

:10:08.:10:11.

takes a lot of thought. Thirdly, there has been this culture of

:10:12.:10:15.

optimism in the Department for Work there has been this culture of

:10:16.:10:35.

it is only testing a single person, without children, dying for only one

:10:36.:10:39.

of the benefits, job-seekers allowance. -- going for. You are

:10:40.:10:46.

describing it as a disaster, is it a disaster? I think it is, at the

:10:47.:10:49.

moment, it is an unmitigated disaster. Is it Solver Jubal? Yes.

:10:50.:10:55.

If they stop having these would killers time deadlines... Which ones

:10:56.:10:59.

are you talking about, is it 2017? Yes. It would be much better if they

:11:00.:11:11.

stopped thinking about, it has got to be in by 2017, and started

:11:12.:11:16.

thinking, how can we implement this properly? The second thing is, they

:11:17.:11:20.

have got to face up to the money they have wasted so far. It is not

:11:21.:11:26.

the ?420 million, but they have spent

:11:27.:11:43.

the ?420 million, but they have muddle through and pretend that they

:11:44.:11:46.

can use some of that in the short-term. I would say, let's scrap

:11:47.:11:52.

a useless IT system we have got and start again. And thirdly, they have

:11:53.:11:57.

just got to say, this is a big transformation, we are going to

:11:58.:12:00.

monitor it public, we are going to take responsibility from the top,

:12:01.:12:04.

and if things start going wrong, we are going to intervene quickly to

:12:05.:12:08.

put things right. Who is to blame? I think it is from the top down.

:12:09.:12:14.

Ministers? Top down. I think it is everybody involved, both at the

:12:15.:12:19.

administration and at the top of the Department for Work and Pensions. I

:12:20.:12:23.

am not into scapegoating individuals, they have got to think

:12:24.:12:27.

through what they have got to do. This is an important flagship

:12:28.:12:29.

programme for the government, and they have got to get it right. There

:12:30.:12:33.

are reports in the papers claiming that members of your committee were

:12:34.:12:35.

put under pressure that members of your committee were

:12:36.:12:53.

is extremely critical of the Department and the government, and

:12:54.:12:56.

it was unanimously agreed by all the members of my committee.

:12:57.:13:02.

We asked the Department for Work and Pensions for an interview, but

:13:03.:13:12.

no-one was available. But we are joined by the former Home Office

:13:13.:13:15.

Minister Nick Herbert, and Jacqui Smith is still with us. Why can't

:13:16.:13:21.

they get this right? You have got to sub rate -- to separate the response

:13:22.:13:27.

of the tea from the operational arrangements. The policy is

:13:28.:13:36.

agreed... She said that. Yes, and it is agreed cross-party, so there is

:13:37.:13:39.

not a policy failure, there has clearly been an operational failure.

:13:40.:13:43.

This is the second major project which has exposed, I think, failings

:13:44.:13:45.

in relation to which has exposed, I think, failings

:13:46.:14:04.

this? Actually, we have a sort of system of untouchables who run these

:14:05.:14:06.

departments, the permanent secretaries, who remain in place

:14:07.:14:13.

irrespective of these kind of failures. We have seen this in other

:14:14.:14:17.

departments as well. So you are blaming the civil service, the

:14:18.:14:21.

permanent secretary, for this? What I am saying is that we have got a

:14:22.:14:25.

big rubble of accountability here. In the end, ministers are held

:14:26.:14:29.

accountable for things. In reality, ministers cannot be held responsible

:14:30.:14:33.

for these operational things when they have got the policy right. What

:14:34.:14:36.

do you say to that, Jacqui Smith, because this is about delivery isn't

:14:37.:14:42.

it? Should we be blaming civil servants more squarely?

:14:43.:15:12.

it? Should we be blaming civil -- welfare reform programme. Nick,

:15:13.:15:16.

come on, you have been a minister, this is the type of project where

:15:17.:15:21.

you would expect senior ministers, perhaps weekly, to sit down with the

:15:22.:15:25.

team and convince me that progress is going right. Either the senior

:15:26.:15:30.

ministers were not doing that, which is an abdication of responsibility,

:15:31.:15:33.

or the will was being pulled over their eyes. Either way it's a

:15:34.:15:36.

ministerial failure. -- bubble was being pulled. -- the wall was being

:15:37.:15:44.

pulled. Perhaps Margaret Hodge had not appreciated the enormity of the

:15:45.:15:47.

task if you are merging a separate benefit payment system into one, and

:15:48.:15:51.

putting a timeline was always going to lead to disaster, says Margaret

:15:52.:15:58.

Hodge. I disagree with Jacqui Smith's points. But who advises the

:15:59.:16:02.

civil service? It is open to save that they do not think

:16:03.:16:22.

civil service? It is open to save is the operational leaders are never

:16:23.:16:25.

touched when these things go wrong. In the end, that's a failure of

:16:26.:16:29.

accountability and you will get a repetition of problems. It is a

:16:30.:16:35.

systemic weakness. I agree civil servants should not be untouched,

:16:36.:16:40.

but as a minister, surely you don't believe that as an estate you say

:16:41.:16:45.

this is the policy, deliberate and come back and tell me when you've

:16:46.:16:53.

done it -- as a minister. The political pressure was enormous.

:16:54.:16:55.

There was an awful lot at stake here. Do you feel that there was a

:16:56.:17:02.

feeling, an atmosphere that they have to do this come what may, and

:17:03.:17:06.

we have to tell the ministers that, if that is what happened. That is

:17:07.:17:13.

speculation. Back row white but that is the claim. It is always --.

:17:14.:17:16.

speculation. Back row white but that civil service. That is what

:17:17.:17:36.

ministers inherit. Let's move on from the blame game. Do you think it

:17:37.:17:41.

can work? Will it actually work? There is talk of a lot of

:17:42.:17:44.

nervousness at the top of government that the universal credit will never

:17:45.:17:48.

get online within a reasonable time frame. There are two questions, can

:17:49.:17:58.

it work, and the timetable. There is still a cross-party consensus. But

:17:59.:18:03.

do you think it can work? Yes, I think it can be made to work, but we

:18:04.:18:06.

have to look without blaming. We have to look at what skills and

:18:07.:18:11.

capabilities we have in the civil service to deliver major projects.

:18:12.:18:16.

Do you think it should be made to work? It's a policy that ministers

:18:17.:18:19.

over years have thought is a good idea. Many have looked at the

:18:20.:18:23.

difficulties of implementation and the cost and then backed off. That

:18:24.:18:25.

does not the cost and then backed off. That

:18:26.:18:26.

piloting deceit if in effect it can work -- to see if it can work. Or is

:18:27.:18:50.

it too much of a struggle. , let's see.

:18:51.:18:53.

Now, curb your enthusiasm. It's almost a year since literally

:18:54.:18:58.

several of you struggled out on a cold Autumn day to elect Police and

:18:59.:19:02.

Crime Commissioners. It was one of the lowest turnouts in British

:19:03.:19:06.

electoral history. So, a year on, have the commissioners made such an

:19:07.:19:09.

impression that you're regretting your decision to sit on your hands,

:19:10.:19:12.

or has their performance left you feeling totally vindicated? Here's

:19:13.:19:19.

Jo-Co! That's right, Andrew. Turnout at the Police Commissioner elections

:19:20.:19:22.

last November was a paltry 15.1%. There are currently 16 Conservative

:19:23.:19:29.

PCCs, 13 Labour and 12 Independents. Taken together, PCCs are responsible

:19:30.:19:32.

for ?8 billion of spending on police in England and Wales.

:19:33.:19:53.

for ?8 billion of spending on police ?70,000 each. And the Chairman of

:19:54.:19:56.

the Home Affairs Select Committee Keith Vaz has expressed concern that

:19:57.:19:59.

PCCs were able to remove chief constables with little scrutiny, and

:20:00.:20:02.

has warned against the dangers of "maverick decision making". Well,

:20:03.:20:05.

earlier this morning, the Home Secretary, Theresa May, gave a

:20:06.:20:08.

speech on the future of police commissioners. The first test of a

:20:09.:20:16.

commissioner's visibility and accountability was the elections in

:20:17.:20:20.

November. Let's be honest, at 15%, the turnout was disappointing. It

:20:21.:20:26.

still meant that more than 5 million people voted for PCCs, more than 5

:20:27.:20:30.

million votes than any police authority ever received, but we

:20:31.:20:33.

should clearly want the turnout to be higher in the future. I think we

:20:34.:20:37.

have every reason to believe that turnout will be higher. First of

:20:38.:20:42.

all, the elections will be held in May, not November. They will be held

:20:43.:20:45.

at the May, not November. They will be held

:20:46.:21:03.

round, the role of PCCs will be better understood by the public.

:21:04.:21:16.

Nick Herbert is a former policing Minister, so we're getting twice the

:21:17.:21:21.

value here. And we're joined from Kent by the county's Independent

:21:22.:21:24.

Police and Crime Commissioner, Ann Barnes. What has been your biggest

:21:25.:21:28.

success this year? The biggest success I have had is making the job

:21:29.:21:33.

my own. And actually commissioning an independent review to look at

:21:34.:21:37.

crime recording in Kent. It is a matter of trust, and I did ask for

:21:38.:21:41.

an independent review of that because I needed the people of Kent

:21:42.:21:45.

and myself to be sure we can trust the crime figures, so that was using

:21:46.:21:50.

my new powers. How much are we paying you for that? You are paying

:21:51.:21:53.

the ?85,000. paying you for that? You are paying

:21:54.:22:12.

to lots of local people and I'm able to react to local problems. It's

:22:13.:22:17.

still hard to see what we are getting the money. Have you cut

:22:18.:22:23.

crime in the county? Unfortunately crime in Kent is slightly going up

:22:24.:22:26.

compared to last year, which is a real disappointment. But the force

:22:27.:22:30.

has lost a fifth of the workforce and is trying to do the same as it

:22:31.:22:33.

did last year and the year before but with 20% fewer officers on the

:22:34.:22:38.

street and in the staff. That is difficult. It will be more

:22:39.:22:41.

challenging when the budgets are cut even more. Crime is going down

:22:42.:22:45.

everywhere else, and they have all had a cut in the police force as

:22:46.:22:51.

well. So if crime is rising in your patch, that would not suggest we are

:22:52.:22:55.

getting mal -- value for money from your ?85,000 a year. You need to

:22:56.:23:02.

look at other places. It's going up in other places as well. You have to

:23:03.:23:04.

remember in other places as well. You have to

:23:05.:23:22.

will tell you that the force is creaking. And he uses that

:23:23.:23:26.

expression himself. The thin blue line is a very thin one. They all

:23:27.:23:32.

say that. Have you found another youth crime commissioners to replace

:23:33.:23:38.

Paris Brown? I have 15 on the long list and I am short listing

:23:39.:23:42.

tomorrow. And that is run ?15,000 salary? How big is the budget? The

:23:43.:23:50.

budget is ?317 million. For your own office and staff? ?1.5 million, the

:23:51.:23:57.

same as last year. Quite a lot of money. Are you enjoying the job? I

:23:58.:24:03.

am absolutely loving it. It is challenging, exhilarating and it has

:24:04.:24:06.

made me realise more than ever that you really have to talk a lot to

:24:07.:24:09.

local people, because at the end of the day it is what local people want

:24:10.:24:14.

that matters. Jacqui Smith, former Home Secretary,

:24:15.:24:14.

that matters. Jacqui Smith, former I did. I accepted the problem of the

:24:15.:24:33.

old police authority is not being very visible and directly

:24:34.:24:37.

accountable -- police authorities. I argued at the time that the problem

:24:38.:24:44.

with trying to put one person with responsibility for a police force

:24:45.:24:47.

the size of Kent, or even larger than that, was that that person

:24:48.:24:50.

would not be able to have the impact you would want a directly elected

:24:51.:24:55.

person to have. To a certain extent, I've been proved right. Why is it

:24:56.:24:58.

that and Barnes wants a youth commissioner? Why do various other

:24:59.:25:05.

commissioners tried to appoint in dubious way a range of people to

:25:06.:25:08.

help them? It's precisely because that one person is not able to

:25:09.:25:12.

deliver the accountability and scrutiny that they would want to do,

:25:13.:25:16.

which is why the sort of ideas I tried to developers Home Secretary

:25:17.:25:21.

may be had an element of accountability, but more than one

:25:22.:25:22.

person in each force -- accountability, but more than one

:25:23.:25:43.

them have between them hired almost 450 staff since taking office. A bit

:25:44.:25:48.

of empire building going on here. A couple of things. There's no reason

:25:49.:25:51.

why the system would cost more money because the police authorities have

:25:52.:25:56.

been abolished. The key here is transparency. They have to account

:25:57.:25:58.

for how much money they will take out of the policing budget for their

:25:59.:26:03.

own activities. They will be held responsible for that. We did not put

:26:04.:26:07.

an artificial limit on it. We said that you answer to the local

:26:08.:26:10.

community for what you are doing. You have to be careful about direct

:26:11.:26:15.

comparisons. Some of the PCCs have taken on responsibilities that are

:26:16.:26:19.

things the police force were doing, and one of those will be complaints

:26:20.:26:24.

going to the PCCs, that wouldn't have gone to the authority because

:26:25.:26:27.

they were anonymous. Let's deal with the cost issue. That is a very small

:26:28.:26:32.

part of the overall policing budget and there will be some

:26:33.:26:51.

could go back over, but they do now. We know 75% of the local population

:26:52.:26:55.

know about their police and crime commission and by the next election

:26:56.:26:58.

will be higher. Then that person is held to account for delivering

:26:59.:27:03.

effective policing in the area and they hold the police force to

:27:04.:27:06.

account. I think that direct accountability we have seen in

:27:07.:27:08.

London with the mayor is something people will not want to turn the

:27:09.:27:13.

clock back on. There seems to be a bit of cronyism going on. At least

:27:14.:27:17.

ten of the appointments that they make are going to political or

:27:18.:27:24.

personal contacts. Firstly, one of the things I put through as minister

:27:25.:27:29.

was that they are not allowed to be political positions. We made them

:27:30.:27:31.

all so they were not allowed to be. Secondly, the key is transparency.

:27:32.:27:38.

You say it is on the register and they have to declare the

:27:39.:27:41.

appointments. It didn't stop them doing it. I

:27:42.:28:01.

appointments. It didn't stop them Has this person being useful? Have

:28:02.:28:05.

they done the job of holding the police to account? And then they can

:28:06.:28:08.

be chucked out. That was not the case with the police authority. Let

:28:09.:28:16.

me go back to and Barnes -- and Barnes. Have you appointed any

:28:17.:28:22.

friends, colleagues, cronies? I don't have a deputy or any assistant

:28:23.:28:28.

at all. So you have not indulged in any cronyism? I appointed to people

:28:29.:28:32.

to help me with the campaign on a short-term basis but they are not

:28:33.:28:34.

with me. I needed their skills right at the beginning. Do people in Kent

:28:35.:28:41.

know who you are? I think they do. I have comments of community

:28:42.:28:45.

engagement programme. Last month I spoke to about 1500 people at

:28:46.:28:48.

various events, just even in the street. I go out in my second-hand

:28:49.:28:53.

camper van in the street every weekend, which is

:28:54.:29:11.

camper van in the street every police authority I have on average a

:29:12.:29:13.

handful of correspondence per week. Since I have been a commissioner

:29:14.:29:16.

I've had 9000 correspondence. That is one good statistic at least. When

:29:17.:29:24.

the Plebgate issue moved to the West Midlands and blew up about Andrew

:29:25.:29:30.

Mitchell, your equivalent in the West Midlands seemed to become a

:29:31.:29:33.

spokesman for the police and to take the side of the police. Who do you

:29:34.:29:38.

represent? Are you there to represent the people, or are you

:29:39.:29:47.

speaking up the police? I am there to represent the people of Kent. I

:29:48.:29:51.

think Plebgate and Hillsborough has planted a seed in the minds of

:29:52.:29:55.

people that perhaps the police should not be investigating

:29:56.:29:59.

themselves any more, which is why I did my own independent report at the

:30:00.:30:03.

beginning. For high-profile difficulties and complaints, I think

:30:04.:30:21.

beginning. For high-profile learn something from that. Do you

:30:22.:30:25.

think Labour should keep this going, have another round of elections, see

:30:26.:30:30.

what happens? I think we should be trying to get more democracy into

:30:31.:30:35.

the system. So... You see, you want a shortened answer. You have not

:30:36.:30:41.

answered my question, should Labour keep this going through another

:30:42.:30:43.

round of elections? In terms of the timing, it is likely that the next

:30:44.:30:49.

set of elections will happen before a new initiative comes under way,

:30:50.:30:52.

but my argument is, do not do away with it, find more ways of holding

:30:53.:30:57.

the police more effectively to account. Do not do away with it,

:30:58.:31:01.

that is the key. Thank for giving us a double whammy.

:31:02.:31:13.

But NHS England is considering changing the funding formula, which

:31:14.:31:35.

could lead to deprived areas losing out to people with large numbers of

:31:36.:31:38.

elderly people. Mark Denten reports from Sunderland. This is a place

:31:39.:31:44.

which is used to facing problems like high unemployment and

:31:45.:31:46.

anti-social behaviour. These have been challenges for years in

:31:47.:31:50.

Pennywell. If you live in this area, you are more likely to die earlier.

:31:51.:31:55.

Life expectancy is three years less than the average for women, and five

:31:56.:32:04.

years less for men. Certainly, there are high levels of cardiovascular

:32:05.:32:07.

disease, which is heart disease, and respiratory disease, principally

:32:08.:32:12.

from smoking, but also because of the history of heavy industrial

:32:13.:32:16.

diseases. There are also concerns around high levels of obesity. Those

:32:17.:32:22.

are based on poor diet. But despite those problems, could

:32:23.:32:41.

are based on poor diet. But despite That could leave a hole in the

:32:42.:32:45.

Health Service funding for the North. Sunderland could lose ?41

:32:46.:32:51.

million, Newcastle, ?15 million on Cumbria could lose more than ?60

:32:52.:32:56.

million. Inevitably, commissioning groups will have to look at cutting

:32:57.:32:59.

some of the provision that they give now. That may well mean some of the

:33:00.:33:05.

hospital services, or it could be some of the community services, such

:33:06.:33:10.

as obesity clinics, smoking clinics. That may well have an

:33:11.:33:20.

impact on people's health. But they see things rather differently 70

:33:21.:33:25.

miles away. Just over there is the North Yorkshire market town of

:33:26.:33:30.

Hawes. One in four people in this area are pensioners, so their

:33:31.:33:32.

doctors have to travel long distances to get to

:33:33.:33:50.

doctors have to travel long So, the doctors have got a lot of if

:33:51.:33:54.

they were to put the emphasis on age, and it should benefit the

:33:55.:33:59.

practice enormously, and help to put us on a secure financial footing.

:34:00.:34:04.

North Yorkshire is a very popular place for people to grow old. As we

:34:05.:34:08.

live longer, people who are elderly have more complex health and social

:34:09.:34:12.

needs, and this has to be reflected in a higher health care budget.

:34:13.:34:17.

There is still time for town and country to make their case. NHS

:34:18.:34:20.

England will make a final decision next month. The funding challenge is

:34:21.:34:24.

to give areas with very different health needs a fair deal. And we are

:34:25.:34:30.

joined by viewers in Scotland, who have been watching or listening to

:34:31.:34:34.

First Minister's Questions from Holyrood. With me now is the Labour

:34:35.:34:42.

MP for Newcastle East, Nick Brown, and the Liberal Democrat

:34:43.:35:00.

MP for Newcastle East, Nick Brown, poor health outcomes. The

:35:01.:35:03.

Conservative Party neither proposal is to alter that so that money

:35:04.:35:08.

shifts from people who are poor and who die young towards communities

:35:09.:35:14.

where the well, elderly live. What is wrong with looking at age? If you

:35:15.:35:20.

think about the burden age puts on the NHS, if you have a rural

:35:21.:35:24.

population, for example, with a large number of elderly people, are

:35:25.:35:27.

they not going to be the ones putting more pressure on NHS

:35:28.:35:32.

services? I am not arguing that health care should be taken away

:35:33.:35:34.

from anyone, I am defending my constituency, and those who, because

:35:35.:35:39.

of the industrial heritage of the area, have a lower life

:35:40.:35:43.

expectancies. My constituents would like to live to a healthy old age,

:35:44.:35:48.

but they don't, they die younger. But there are Conservative MPs

:35:49.:35:49.

saying, this is not fair, money from the poor, those who have

:35:50.:36:11.

the least successful health outcomes, and spend it on people who

:36:12.:36:14.

are relatively better off. What do you say to that? Nick is absolutely

:36:15.:36:21.

right. We need to take away from the fog of political dispute all of

:36:22.:36:26.

this. Just as under previous governments, in fact since the

:36:27.:36:37.

1970s, when methods to independently establish the advisory committee on

:36:38.:36:39.

resource allocation, for example, which then advises government as to

:36:40.:36:43.

how the funding formula should be manipulative overtime, the main

:36:44.:36:48.

thing is to take it out of the hands of politicians, and that is largely

:36:49.:36:52.

what this government is doing, as the previous government did as well.

:36:53.:36:57.

But this is a question about need. The NHS funding formula says there

:36:58.:37:01.

should be equal access and need should also be made equal.

:37:02.:37:02.

should be equal access and need factor, because we are the poorest

:37:03.:37:23.

in terms of the wages and the GDP that we receive, and that was used

:37:24.:37:28.

as a method by which allocation was established which actually put as

:37:29.:37:30.

very low down the funding league table. Certainly, having a top-heavy

:37:31.:37:36.

age distribution, if you like, does not help. But it is certainly

:37:37.:37:39.

something which needs to be kept under review. At the end of the day.

:37:40.:37:45.

It should be directed towards achieving the best possible health

:37:46.:37:47.

outcomes across the country as a whole. We are talking about cost

:37:48.:37:52.

here, Nick Brown, and thereafter I like resources, so if you are

:37:53.:37:57.

looking at the funding formula, and at how much each area costs the NHS,

:37:58.:38:01.

your constituency may be poorer than somewhere else, in Cambridgeshire or

:38:02.:38:05.

Hampshire, for example, but actually, they cost more, so should

:38:06.:38:10.

the funding not match that, rather than saying it is

:38:11.:38:11.

expressed in terms of life expectancy, across the piece, my

:38:12.:38:34.

constituents died three years earlier than Andrew's. That is not

:38:35.:38:40.

right. Right, but per capita, another MP has said, if you are

:38:41.:38:44.

going to be ill, better to be ill in Hackney, where they will spend ?100

:38:45.:38:49.

more per head on you, than to be ill in Herefordshire. If I said to a

:38:50.:38:54.

citizen in Hackney, where would you rather live, they would move to

:38:55.:38:58.

Herefordshire, and if you said the same thing the other way round, you

:38:59.:39:02.

would not get the same response. It is very difficult for MPs living in

:39:03.:39:06.

these areas which have a very different make-up of constituents,

:39:07.:39:12.

to see what would be fair? Yes, but I think there is very clear evidence

:39:13.:39:16.

that what would happen if this formula were to be put into place

:39:17.:39:20.

would be a shift of resources, as Nick has said, from those people who

:39:21.:39:21.

have the greatest Nick has said, from those people who

:39:22.:39:41.

?40 per head. In Hampshire, your healthy life expectancies is 68. You

:39:42.:39:45.

are going to be gaining money. Of course, older people need health

:39:46.:39:50.

care, but the first issue is, have you got the health care and the

:39:51.:39:53.

resources to actually get you to be old in the first place off what do

:39:54.:39:57.

you say to that? Obviously, you need to distribute the resources very. --

:39:58.:40:05.

fairy. -- fairly. But the question is, who is making the decision? If

:40:06.:40:08.

you put it in the hands of politicians, there is always a risk

:40:09.:40:12.

that there could be tweaks to achieve political advantage. Of

:40:13.:40:19.

course, people in Nick's constituency should be advancing...

:40:20.:40:26.

It is taking money from the poor areas, which by and large are

:40:27.:40:29.

represented by Labour members of Parliament, and shifting it to the

:40:30.:40:31.

wealthier areas, Parliament, and shifting it to the

:40:32.:40:50.

hood in reverse. The key issue is that you need to take the ultimate

:40:51.:40:55.

decision and evaluation out of the hands of politicians, which is where

:40:56.:40:58.

NHS England, and the advisory committee, has to take an objective

:40:59.:41:05.

view. Thank you for coming in. There is a rumour doing the rounds at the

:41:06.:41:09.

moment that Ed Balls and Chuka Umunna went to some fancy do last

:41:10.:41:13.

night. I was not invited. And apparently, their hosts, business

:41:14.:41:22.

people, got them a ?800 bottle of wine. Do you believe that, Jacqui

:41:23.:41:26.

Smith? I was not there! . But could you believe it? So, if you are

:41:27.:41:33.

watching, U2, let us know, we will put the record straight. We have had

:41:34.:41:38.

it confirmed by BBC Wales that the Welsh government paid ?48,000 for a

:41:39.:41:41.

windmill, or a turbine, Welsh government paid ?48,000 for a

:41:42.:41:59.

bottle of wine. We move on. It has got them thinking! If you are

:42:00.:42:02.

looking for a school place for your child, it can sometimes feel like

:42:03.:42:06.

you need to go to school yourself to navigate the application process.

:42:07.:42:15.

Anyway, a new website launched in the capital this morning aims to

:42:16.:42:20.

take the mystery out of it all. Giles met the creators of the London

:42:21.:42:24.

Schools Atlas to find out more. So, what are we looking at, what is this

:42:25.:42:30.

schools Atlas? It is an online, interact to map of every school in

:42:31.:42:34.

London, at primary and secondary school level, allowing people to

:42:35.:42:39.

browse to a particular area of London, and then to use the

:42:40.:42:44.

drop-down list to select a school. It will show where the children that

:42:45.:42:48.

go to that school actually live in London. So, you get an impression of

:42:49.:42:50.

the catchment area. What is London. So, you get an impression of

:42:51.:43:13.

live. You want the public to be able to use this, so what is the driver,

:43:14.:43:14.

you want people to to use this, so what is the driver,

:43:15.:43:14.

choice? Yes, data is power. People need information, objective

:43:15.:43:17.

information, to reach decisions, and this is exactly what the GLA should

:43:18.:43:23.

be doing, providing that data, providing those things which will

:43:24.:43:26.

enable people to make a decision, and Is to certain school. I going to

:43:27.:43:57.

understand what this is telling me? The challenge at the moment for

:43:58.:44:01.

parents is that all of this information,

:44:02.:44:19.

parents is that all of this now. Welcome. Who is this for,

:44:20.:44:24.

primarily? Parents or government? All sorts of people. Parents but

:44:25.:44:28.

also people who want to set up free schools. It's for the planners. You

:44:29.:44:35.

have to think about where schools might be needed. It sounds like it

:44:36.:44:40.

might be more useful, I might suggest, for government, who have to

:44:41.:44:44.

look at pressure on places. Parents are normally just looking at the

:44:45.:44:48.

Ofsted results. They are looking at where they might want to send their

:44:49.:44:52.

children to school. The idea that parents send them to the local

:44:53.:44:55.

school in London is not quite true. You can see from the atlas that lots

:44:56.:44:59.

of parents will look quite widely and look at schools in other

:45:00.:45:03.

boroughs. Mainly cause of the results. They will look at the

:45:04.:45:06.

school with the best results. They will say that is where they will try

:45:07.:45:10.

and get them into. It is useful for them to know how much demand will

:45:11.:45:12.

grow them to know how much demand will

:45:13.:45:31.

beyond the boundaries? At secondary school, that is where it happens

:45:32.:45:36.

most, it is about 20% that go to a school that is not in the borough

:45:37.:45:39.

they are living in. Quite a high number compared to other parts of

:45:40.:45:44.

the UK. Is this more about London? Is this tool going to help parents

:45:45.:45:48.

in London where there is a lot of pressure and they are more mobile in

:45:49.:45:52.

terms of sending kids because of that better transport? We are the

:45:53.:45:55.

Greater London authority, which is why it is a London atlas. We have

:45:56.:45:59.

children coming from outside the city coming into schools as well.

:46:00.:46:04.

House prices are a huge factor in dictating the education choices in

:46:05.:46:08.

London. Is it fair that some parents are able and can afford to choose

:46:09.:46:14.

where to send their kids because they can move to the expensive areas

:46:15.:46:18.

around the best state schools? The reality is there is all sorts of

:46:19.:46:20.

choice in the system already. reality is there is all sorts of

:46:21.:46:40.

forced to spend a fortune on independent school fees or moving

:46:41.:46:43.

house. And the schools in their area are good. The tool like this is

:46:44.:46:48.

important. If free schools and academies look at where there is a

:46:49.:46:51.

need for places and the need for good schools, they are more likely

:46:52.:46:56.

to set up there. At the moment, the information is too obscure. It's not

:46:57.:46:59.

available to them to do it and we hope this allows them to do it.

:47:00.:47:07.

Isn't the reality about who can afford to move around London? If you

:47:08.:47:11.

want to send your job and to state schools, parents will move to the

:47:12.:47:14.

areas where there are the best schools, and price out a lot of

:47:15.:47:19.

families who can't afford to do it? I think this map is a good idea.

:47:20.:47:23.

Anything that gives parents more information is good. It was

:47:24.:47:26.

something I did is an education minister and it is a good

:47:27.:47:30.

initiative. But I agree with you that in an odd

:47:31.:47:48.

initiative. But I agree with you people to look further afield, but a

:47:49.:47:51.

Labour politician will say that you should go to the school up the

:47:52.:47:55.

road? If that is a good school, the standards will it improve. That is

:47:56.:47:59.

your characterisation of a Labour politician. This Labour politician

:48:00.:48:02.

thinks parents should have a choice of good schools and acted to ensure

:48:03.:48:05.

that would happen when I was education minister. If it helps

:48:06.:48:12.

people to help that -- if it helps people to think about what best

:48:13.:48:17.

suits their child, that's fine. My problem is that I'm less optimistic

:48:18.:48:23.

that this will cause a big growth of free schools and academies and solve

:48:24.:48:32.

the problem of a lack of places. Simply providing information will

:48:33.:48:35.

not solve the problem. It needs a plan, frankly, and it needs more

:48:36.:48:40.

action than either the government, and it isn't the

:48:41.:49:00.

action than either the government, everything either. You do want some

:49:01.:49:04.

plan of the places. That is the purpose of the tool, to work out

:49:05.:49:06.

where the gaps are and where schools are needed. PricewaterhouseCoopers

:49:07.:49:14.

have brought out a clear correlation between house prices and decent

:49:15.:49:18.

state schools around them. A second way of buying your education,

:49:19.:49:22.

really. The other way is to just pay fees.

:49:23.:49:23.

Now, until relatively recently we didn't even know their names. We

:49:24.:49:27.

certainly didn't know what they looked like. But this afternoon

:49:28.:49:31.

history will be made when the three heads of the intelligence services

:49:32.:49:34.

appear in public before a parliamentary committee. There will

:49:35.:49:37.

be a two-minute delay on the TV feed in case Iain Lobban, the Director of

:49:38.:49:40.

GCHQ, Andrew Parker, Director General of MI5 or John Sawers, the

:49:41.:49:43.

Chief of MI6, divulge any national secrets. I can't believe they would

:49:44.:49:50.

do that. secrets. I can't believe they would

:49:51.:50:10.

the chief of MI6 looks like because we've seen pictures of him in his

:50:11.:50:12.

swimming trunks. His wife posted them at the time he was about to be

:50:13.:50:18.

appointed. It caused a huge row and they had to be taken down in a

:50:19.:50:22.

hurry. He is quite a familiar figure, John Sawyers, because he was

:50:23.:50:26.

a Foreign Office man for a long time before we took the job. But coming

:50:27.:50:29.

out of the shadows, as they are, is a real milestone. This is never

:50:30.:50:35.

happened before. The free intelligence chiefs, who prefer to

:50:36.:50:39.

stay in the shadows, will appear not only in public -- free intelligence

:50:40.:50:44.

chiefs. They also appear on television. They will be talking

:50:45.:50:49.

about bugging President Obama's phone? Of course not. They will be

:50:50.:50:53.

talking about current operations. They will be pressed hard by the

:50:54.:50:59.

committee of MPs, I hope, as do just what is the extent of their

:51:00.:51:00.

surveillance operations, generically?

:51:01.:51:19.

surveillance operations, will tell us something we don't

:51:20.:51:24.

already know? I think it will. -- I think they will. It will be a

:51:25.:51:27.

fascinating insight into the world of spies. They will talk about how

:51:28.:51:32.

they recruit. We will hear about the growing threats, cyber terrorism,

:51:33.:51:36.

the persistent threat to the UK and its interests. That we have heard

:51:37.:51:39.

before. But we will hear more about the methods and challenges faces --

:51:40.:51:45.

facing them. These people are generally not terribly exciting.

:51:46.:51:48.

They are not show men, not like you, the gift of the gab that you have.

:51:49.:51:57.

Don't expect scintillating television or angry exchanges. But

:51:58.:51:59.

if the committee do their job, they should get some interesting answers

:52:00.:52:05.

about Edward Snowden. If you were on the committee, and I wish you were,

:52:06.:52:09.

because we'd get decent questions, what is the one question above all

:52:10.:52:10.

because we'd get decent questions, partner in the face at the end of

:52:11.:52:30.

your career and say you never broke the law? Will you be going along or

:52:31.:52:37.

will you watch it on the telly? My co-correspondence will be there. He

:52:38.:52:40.

will be warming the seat, so he will be stuck inside. He will hopefully

:52:41.:52:44.

ask questions himself. I don't think he will get the opportunity,

:52:45.:52:47.

actually. I will be reporting live from here. Thank you for joining us,

:52:48.:52:53.

because I know it is a busy day for you. A good idea? I think it is.

:52:54.:53:00.

It's an idea we talked about when I was Home Secretary, so it's been a

:53:01.:53:04.

long time in the making. One of the reasons it's taken quite a long time

:53:05.:53:08.

to come to fruition is because there is some worry, and it will be

:53:09.:53:11.

interesting to see if it's justified, that what might happen,

:53:12.:53:17.

of course, is that although it is in public people are quite restrained

:53:18.:53:18.

about what they say, and public people are quite restrained

:53:19.:53:40.

powers? I don't think it is the same as the Congressional court? The

:53:41.:53:45.

powers are strengthening. They can do more investigations and go into

:53:46.:53:49.

the agencies. Personally, I think the quality of people on the

:53:50.:53:52.

committee is actually very high. I know there are some people who say,

:53:53.:53:56.

look, it's chaired by a former Foreign Secretary, Hazel blears, who

:53:57.:54:02.

had responsibility for security and the Home Office is on it as well.

:54:03.:54:06.

Somehow that means they won't ask difficult questions, but it does

:54:07.:54:11.

mean that they know where to ask the questions and the way in which

:54:12.:54:16.

thinks function -- thinks function, so it is a big opportunity. We have

:54:17.:54:21.

learned that the ECB has cut its interest rate, which is a surprise,

:54:22.:54:25.

from 0.5, and you didn't think it could get any lower? It is now

:54:26.:54:28.

0.25%. could get any lower? It is now

:54:29.:54:47.

the head of the ECB. They appear daily in our newspapers

:54:48.:54:51.

and have lampooned politicians and prime ministers for generations. I'm

:54:52.:54:55.

talking of political cartoons which can capture in a flash a

:54:56.:54:57.

politician's character or a key event. In a moment, we'll be talking

:54:58.:55:02.

to the Jim Benson, the editor of a new book on political cartoons. But

:55:03.:55:06.

first, let's take a look at the world of politics through the eyes

:55:07.:55:09.

of some of the countries leading cartoonists.

:55:10.:55:58.

Tim Benson, is here now. 186 cartoons in the book, thousands to

:55:59.:56:02.

choose from over a year. Added to the decision? I tried to cover the

:56:03.:56:09.

whole year -- how did you make the decision? I tried to cover the major

:56:10.:56:12.

events of the year. Every single cartoonist in this country is

:56:13.:56:18.

featured in the book, and there is some wonderful material. This is the

:56:19.:56:24.

first anthology. I think we have one of Boris Johnson. Let's see if we

:56:25.:56:29.

can see that,. That is a great silhouette. What makes it a great

:56:30.:56:37.

cartoon? It is fantastically drawn. It portrays not such a conjugated

:56:38.:56:43.

political issue, but in a simple, visual manner -- conjugated. It is a

:56:44.:56:49.

visual metaphor. Here we have Boris Johnson

:56:50.:56:50.

visual metaphor. Here we have Boris isn't it? And it is a play on the

:56:51.:57:20.

great escape. Steve McQueen style. Andrew Mitchell liked this so much

:57:21.:57:24.

he bought it from me. The death of Margaret Thatcher created a lot of

:57:25.:57:27.

cartoons as well. We have one of these to show you. This is from the

:57:28.:57:35.

Daily Mail. Mac does a visual gag, making a joke from the news, and

:57:36.:57:42.

this is on the protesters who turned their back on Mrs Thatcher. I see.

:57:43.:57:50.

Very clever. We have run out of time. What is the title of the book?

:57:51.:57:55.

The best of Britain's political cartoons, 2013. It looks great. I

:57:56.:57:58.

will get one. There's

:57:59.:58:20.

post, sheep grazing? I think it's the sheep. Clever old you excavation

:58:21.:58:24.

mark we need to go while they are still working. I will be back on BBC

:58:25.:58:33.

One tonight for this week. With comedian Shazia Mirza, architect

:58:34.:58:36.

George Clarke, plus Quentin Letts, Michael Portillo, Alan Johnson and

:58:37.:58:39.

Miranda Green. And I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big

:58:40.:58:43.

political stories of the day. Do join me then. Bye bye.

:58:44.:58:48.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS