08/11/2013 Daily Politics


08/11/2013

Andrew Neil with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Afternoon, folks - welcome to The Daily Politics. MPs debate a

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Conservative plan for a referendum on Europe in 2017, but Tory

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backbencher Adam Afriyie demands a vote next year. We'll have the

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latest. MPs criticise the Home Office over

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illegal immigration, accusing the department of a "poor record". The

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Government says it is getting tough on the issue.

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Should pubs in England be allowed to open late during next year's World

:01:00.:01:05.

Cup? We'll hear why one MP wants a free-for-all during the footie.

:01:06.:01:10.

And in the latest of our series on political thinkers, the comedian

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Alistair McGowan explains why EF Schumacher is his favourite

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philosopher. People who writes for the Glasgow Herald.

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Welcome to The Daily Politics. First, I want to bring you some sad

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news, the BBC's former BBC political editor, John Cook has died at the

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age of 85, after an illness. Let's start with the news that only

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1.5% of reports alleging illegal immigration result in a person being

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removed from the UK. That's the headline finding of a report from

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Parliament's Home Affairs Committee. Its chairman, the Labour MP Keith

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Vaz, is not a happy chap. This is a very poor record. One -- what

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Vaz, is not a happy chap. This is a Odone, there is a backlog of more

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than 400,000 immigration asylum cases and that is never going to be

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cleared, is it? I cannot imagine it will. But I will tell you what is

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very sad for the Government, when I found out that it was going to be

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part of the agenda today, 34 hours ago, I tried to put in, I want to

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report an illegal immigrant on Google, and management system gave

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me error error after error. And then I thought, maybe it is my computer.

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So when I came in today, instead of doing my make up properly, I got our

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research are here to look up from this computer the same thing. I

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fear, it could even be just IT. When you see this particularly, the

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asylum cases are one thing, if they are real asylum cases, but it would

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seem to me are real asylum cases, but it would

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says, the idea of grassing, or shopping, call it what you like, but

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it strikes me that that was never going to yield tangible results, and

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I suspect what it is all about is the appearance of doing something,

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giving people the feeling they are involved. But there is an aspect of

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absurdity, with those government vans. Absurdity is a euphemism, I

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think it was really, really awful to see Britain, and whatever one says

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about its policies towards immigrants, it has always been

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generous and fair, and to have those vans focusing on six London boroughs

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where ethnic minorities are really big, I thought that was... I thought

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it was really awful almost unBritish, I thought. I think that

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is why they unBritish, I thought. I think that

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all. But the aim of successive Scottish Government has been to

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increase that, and Alex Salmond is one of the leading cheerleaders for

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it. Now it's time for our Daily Quiz.

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The question for today... Vince Cable has unveiled a ?1.5 million

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project for Milton Keynes - but what is it? Is it... A) No university

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tuition fees for the town's students? B) Driverless cars? C) A

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20-metre statue of himself? D) Reversible roundabouts? At the end

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of the show, our guests will give us the correct answer. Do you have a

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clue? No. Now, I know you've all been missing

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it but don't worry - it's back! I'm talking of course about James

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Wharton's EU Referendum Bill, which returns to the Commons today for its

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report stage. It is a private member's bill sponsored

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report stage. It is a private abstaining. The bill aims to set in

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stone - or at least in legislation - David Cameron's pledge at the

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beginning of the year to hold a referendum on Britain's membership

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of the EU by the end of 2017. But more than 50 amendments have been

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tabled. One of those is from Conservative backbencher and

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occasional troublemaker Adam Afriyie, who wants a referendum much

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sooner, in October next year. Very few private member's bills ever

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become law because they can easily be talked out by MPs who don't like

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the legislation. With his 36 amendments, Labour's Mike Gapes

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might be hoping to ruin Mr Wharton's day. But one person who has come to

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James Wharton's aid is the Foreign Secretary. William Hague has written

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to all Tory MPs asking for them to "refrain from speaking"

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designed to cause a headache for the rest of his party. The truth is, I

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get on very well with my Parliamentary colleagues. This is

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nothing to do with me, it should not really be much to do with MPs, other

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than passing legislation. What I am trying to do is to try to give a

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voice to the British people. This has been kicked down the road time

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and time again, so what I have got is an amendment, which I hope will

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because, so that actually, Parliament can say, once and for

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all, right, within this Parliament, let's settle this question. Let's

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get the latest on this from our political correspondent Carole

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Walker. -- Iain Watson. What has been happening in the chamber this

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morning? So far, they have been confining their comments to a very

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small part of Europe, the Rock of Gibraltar.

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small part of Europe, the Rock of Parliamentary elections. However, as

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you pointed out, this is a private members' bill, not a government ill,

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and it is struggling for Parliamentary time, with Labour MPs

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against it. Then, they opened up the debate and spoke about Argentina,

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decolonisation and a whole range of other issues. What they are trying

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to make sure is that there is not enough time for this bill to become

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law before the next election, so that Ed Miliband is not asked the

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question, are you in favour of a referendum or aren't you go off and

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this amendment, my understanding is that not even many Tory Eurosceptics

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are going to act it, is that right? It is, for the very simple reason,

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going back to the issue of time again, that basically, if more

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people chat away about issues to do with Europe,

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did get that, it would be very difficult to get a parliamentary

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majority for it, because the Liberal Democrats are opposed to holding a

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referendum before 2015. So, that is why they do not want people to speak

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for a very great deal of time. We do not yet know if it is going to be

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called. We will know at about two o'clock this afternoon. But

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bizarrely enough, that may well endanger the chances of getting the

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referendum on to the statute books. We are joined now from the central

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lobby in Parliament by the Conservative MP James Wharton. It is

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his bill, the one they are all trying to amend, and also by the

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Liberal Democrat MP Martin Horwood. James Wharton, is your bill now in

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some danger? I hope not. It is being debated at some length as we speak.

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I think we are making reasonable progress but it is going to be slow

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going. happening. Have your backbench

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colleagues followed Mr Hague's instruction to be pithy and to the

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point? They have. I have been delighted by how much support I have

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had from Conservative MPs. Today in the chamber, I thought there might

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be a few who would not be able to resist the urge to make a comment,

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but it has not happened. There have been barely a handful of very short

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interventions. The party is being disciplined and focused in trying to

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deliver this bill, because we know it is the best chance of delivering

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the referendum that the British people deserve. Martin Horwood, I

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think you are the only Lib Dem to table an amendment to the bill

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today, you want to change the wording, so are you trying to be

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hopeful, or are you being part of the blocking operation? The idea of

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that blocking group is a bit fanciful. The amendment

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that blocking group is a bit to fight crime across borders, to

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protect the environment across borders, many other things to do

:12:12.:12:15.

with consumer rights, we should debate these bills properly. It is

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not unusual to do that. I understand that, and I am grateful you do, it

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keeps us in a job, and it gives yourself in a job as well. It is the

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reason we get up in the morning. You speak for but if you get the wording

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changed, as per your amendment, would you then be happy to see a

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referendum in 2017? Well, we are not afraid of a referendum. I voted for

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a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, I voted for a referendum... So, we are

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not remotely afraid. We have said we are in favour of a referendum if it

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is at the right time. We do not want it to be held at a time when we are

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potentially in the middle of negotiating

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potentially in the middle of the offing if you take British,

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European and world affairs, there will always be something! Except we

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did actually vote and call for a referendum at the time of the Lisbon

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Treaty, not in five years' time but actually at that time. We supported

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it. So, we are not afraid of referendums. You say that but you

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will not give let me bring Mr Wharton back in - Mr Wharton, is

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Martin Horwood and ally or an enemy in this debate? He is of course a

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coalition colleague... So he is an enemy? On this particular issue, we

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have a slight disagreement. The fact is, he has tabled quite a few

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amendments, some of them were not selected, and he had a little row

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with the Speaker about that. But a selected, and he had a little row

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the north-east, said that if anything has to change in Britain's

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relationship with Europe, we would need to reconsider our strategy and

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our investments for the future? No, because I have not been arguing that

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we should be in all we should be out of the European Union. My argument

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is that people should be given a say on it so that we can end the

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uncertainty and get a proper settlement which is in the interests

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of the United Kingdom. Anybody is entitled to but you would vote to

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come out if you were presented with the choice of the status quo? If I

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was presented with that exactly as it is today, then yes, I would.

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Thereby jeopardising 6500 jobs 30 miles from your constituency in a

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car plant with some of the highest productivity in the world? That is

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not true. productivity in the world? That is

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But it is only the Conservatives and this bill which are giving people a

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choice. Mr Horwood, regardless of what you would like to happen, is

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your coalition colleague there are going to get his bill through today?

:15:50.:16:01.

I am sure it will survive, but Nissan and the CBI have focused on

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the real issue, which is about British jobs. This is about the

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jeopardy into which a campaign to exit from the European union would

:16:12.:16:15.

put millions of British jobs, not just those at Nissan, at risk. The

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Liberal Democrats are united at keeping the party in. The Tory party

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is deeply divided. They tried to conjure up the spill to conjure up

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some unity to last them until the next

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some unity to last them until the Nissan plant is still there. Why

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should we take notice of that? Woodworkers in Sunderland be

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prepared to take that gamble? Maybe you should not have taken that risk

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and we should have listened this time, but the CBI spoke for a much

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wider cross-section on Monday when they said there were no realistic

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alternative that would serve our economic interests. Are you going to

:17:14.:17:18.

get this Bill through today? The report will take a few more days.

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You will live to fight another day? Absolutely. Anybody listening to

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this? It is not just as that matters. If it happens in 2017, will

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the voters be better educated in the whole issue

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the voters be better educated in the Are we in Europe? You are not having

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a referendum on independence. The two are similar. You are always

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saying that the electorate are not educated. That this was your poll.

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All that is true, but at the end of the day a referendum is the best way

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of resolving that. And in the meantime education. It is the same

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in Scotland. The prime minister directly linked both referendums. He

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said both had been building up a head of steam for so long it

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dominated everything else and you have to draw a line underneath it.

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dominated everything else and you Simple answer, simple question. The

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spotlight must have been blinding after so many years in the shadows

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and into Parliament's Intelligence and Security Committee strode

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GCHQ's director, MI5, boss and MI6's chief. It was their licence to

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spill. Here are some highlights from yesterday's historic session in

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Parliament. Why do you think it is necessary to

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collect information on the majority of the public in order to protect us

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from the minority of potential evildoers? I will work up to that,

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if I may. To clarify issues we do not spend our time listening to the

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if I may. To clarify issues we do That is not the case. It would be

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very nice if we knew who the terrorists were, but the Internet is

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a great way to make identification anonymous. So we have to do

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detective work. Can you guarantee us that you do not conduct operations

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that are out with the British legal framework? Yes, I can do that. We

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are subject to the law and I am also sure that is true of my sister

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agencies as well. The public are entitled to know more about the

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enormous damage that has been caused by the publication of classified

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material. Can you give examples? One is the dependence we now have on the

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fantastic work that GCHQ do to detect terrorist communications and

:21:07.:21:10.

that leads detect terrorist communications and

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agencies that used to that opportunity can be fragile if we use

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it. Then we are making a very difficult task even harder. I am not

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sure the journalists who are managing this very sensitive

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information are particularly well placed to make those judgements.

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What I can tell you is that the leaks from Edward Snowden have been

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very damaging. They put our operations at risk. It is clear our

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adversaries are rubbing their hands with glee. Al-Qaeda is lapping it

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up. You have made that remark. I think we need to hear why you feel

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you are entitled to say that. Can you say why you believe that to be

:22:17.:22:18.

true? I you say why you believe that to be

:22:19.:22:38.

We are joined by Isabella Sankey from the human rights pressure group

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Liberty and the intelligence historical writer Nigel West. Were

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they convincing about the threat to security caused by the leaks? To the

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extent they were free to disclose supporting evidence I think it was

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convincing. They are going to go into private section with the

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Intelligence and Security Committee and give them chapter and verse and

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identify specific cases. The disappointment is they were not even

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stronger pointing out this information even though it may have

:23:13.:23:16.

been disclosed illegally by the Guardian and by Edward Snowden

:23:17.:23:21.

remains classified. It is an offence for anybody to download this

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material and put it on their laptop. What do you think?

:23:28.:23:30.

questions about whether Cabinet ministers knew about the extent of

:23:31.:23:52.

mass surveillance we now understand takes place. They did not. How

:23:53.:23:59.

parliamentarians were allowed to have extended debate about extending

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capabilities which we now know are being made use of and what authority

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they had specifically to undertake interception of the British public.

:24:12.:24:14.

It was interesting we have from GCHQ that they do not look at the vast

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majority of communications, leaving them room to look at the minority.

:24:19.:24:27.

It is preposterous to expect these individuals to work in a handicapped

:24:28.:24:32.

way, one hand tied behind their back. The technology is there and

:24:33.:24:35.

there is nothing illegal about what they are doing. They are collecting

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the haystack so as to be able to they are doing. They are collecting

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being intercepted. It is impractical and it is beyond their capability,

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they do not have resources to do that. They made this claim and they

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used the committee as a platform to do so, and they all did it to say

:25:09.:25:13.

that what the Guardian published had been of benefit to our enemies. But

:25:14.:25:20.

that is a claim. They did not, maybe for obvious reasons, present the

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evidence. You say it is going to be done behind closed doors, but that

:25:27.:25:30.

means we have to take it on trust and we do not think we should always

:25:31.:25:34.

take spies on trust. Trust is not what they operate on. You have had

:25:35.:25:42.

long experience of encounters with the intelligence community at the

:25:43.:25:46.

Sunday Times. And it was not always an issue to trust. But where

:25:47.:26:10.

Sunday Times. And it was not always current operations. That is the

:26:11.:26:16.

claim. I am sure you could get an off-camera briefing to explain to

:26:17.:26:19.

you how one of the disclosures has directly affected a major

:26:20.:26:25.

counterterrorism operation costing a lot of money being run right now.

:26:26.:26:31.

Does it not stand to reason that if you expose the manner and methods by

:26:32.:26:35.

which the intelligence services are trying to access communications of

:26:36.:26:40.

those who would do us harm, that helps those who would do us harm?

:26:41.:26:45.

Everyone in the world has been talking about using alternatives to

:26:46.:26:52.

communicate given the unprecedented come -- abilities they have. But

:26:53.:26:56.

there is a distinction to be made. We are not talking about the

:26:57.:27:00.

technical capabilities, We are not talking about the

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widely in these disclosures and was confirmed yesterday. It is often

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claimed that they are listening to as all the time, or they are

:27:26.:27:30.

tracking our communication. Do we know that? There is no evidence

:27:31.:27:44.

that. The meter data, that information went to the Supreme

:27:45.:27:48.

Court in the United States and the Dutchman was that there was no

:27:49.:27:53.

expectation of privacy because the information was already known to the

:27:54.:27:58.

telephone company. A lot of people were upset, but this has been going

:27:59.:28:03.

on for decades. Who you called and how long you spoke to them. Yes, it

:28:04.:28:09.

is not the content of the call. The other thing that is really

:28:10.:28:10.

important. other thing that is really

:28:11.:28:30.

say none of this has compromised any sources or methods or techniques,

:28:31.:28:34.

that is a lie. They do not realise it. What is your response? It is

:28:35.:28:43.

about interception. The disclosures told as millions of communications

:28:44.:28:48.

are being intercepted every day by GCHQ, including many interceptions

:28:49.:28:54.

of British citizens will stop do you mean the content? A physical

:28:55.:28:58.

interception has taken place and they have alternated mechanisms to

:28:59.:29:04.

try and trawl through the contents, so content is being read in an

:29:05.:29:09.

automated way. You are shaking your head. You do not think there is

:29:10.:29:16.

evidence to show that? There is no evidence. What is your evidence?

:29:17.:29:38.

evidence to show that? There is no is taking place. There is a

:29:39.:29:40.

difference between interception and collection. I would trust the

:29:41.:29:46.

director GCHQ to know whether he was collecting or not. Interception and

:29:47.:29:58.

reading the content is protected under the 1986. I am more concerned

:29:59.:30:06.

with the spooks intercepting my telephone call ban the Guardian

:30:07.:30:15.

holding to ransom, and I do not see that a newspaper editor, even the

:30:16.:30:19.

best ones, has the expertise to know exactly who he is placing in

:30:20.:30:28.

danger, which plots he is hampered -- he has hampered, and it is

:30:29.:30:50.

danger, which plots he is hampered that at the end of the day, the

:30:51.:30:51.

intelligence services, like government business, relies on much

:30:52.:30:55.

of its day-to-day business being conducted in secret. Sure, there may

:30:56.:31:01.

be some overreach, but I am not sure any of this is leading anywhere

:31:02.:31:06.

particularly useful. There, the case has been laid out from both sides.

:31:07.:31:10.

Now, what will you be doing at 11pm on June 14 2014? Cheering on the

:31:11.:31:17.

opening games of the World Cup in Brazil, of course. The problem is,

:31:18.:31:21.

you probably will not be doing it in the pub, because of the time

:31:22.:31:26.

difference. Quite a few of the matches will be happening when it is

:31:27.:31:32.

last orders. So, the pub trade and one Tory MP have joined forces to

:31:33.:31:35.

campaign for a change to the licensing laws. Here is Adam to

:31:36.:31:37.

explain. if you want to. Well, they can,

:31:38.:32:03.

thanks to the 2003 Licensing Act. It has happened before, most recently

:32:04.:32:07.

in the royal wedding, two years ago, when 20,000 pubs took advantage of

:32:08.:32:11.

it. The idea of doing it again has been raised at the highest level.

:32:12.:32:16.

Football fans across England are looking forward to cheering on Roy

:32:17.:32:20.

Hodgson's team in Brazil next year. There is no better way to do that

:32:21.:32:24.

than by enjoying a pint in your local pub. Yet because of Britain's

:32:25.:32:27.

licensing laws and because of the time delay, many people will be

:32:28.:32:32.

unable to watch the football and enjoy a pint at the same time. Pub

:32:33.:32:37.

trade say it would help them raise an extra ?20 million in revenue, and

:32:38.:32:43.

they only want to open longer in the opening and closing weekends, rather

:32:44.:32:47.

than for the whole tournament. The Home Office say they are considering

:32:48.:32:48.

the request, but say they only Home Office say they are considering

:32:49.:33:11.

British Beer And Hub Association. Welcome to The Daily Politics. Can

:33:12.:33:19.

pubs apply locally anyway? Yes, they can apply for a temporary event

:33:20.:33:23.

notice, but as your piece showed, if you have to pay and you can only

:33:24.:33:27.

have a certain number each year... This was done for the Diamond

:33:28.:33:31.

Jubilee and for the royal wedding. We believe that football is our

:33:32.:33:35.

national game, that British beer and British pubs are hugely important to

:33:36.:33:40.

local communities, and it is worth probably conventionally about ?20

:33:41.:33:45.

million. The biggest business will be done when you are following

:33:46.:33:49.

England games, this is going to be a very temporary event, why not just

:33:50.:33:55.

leave it to the local authorities? We are not asking for it just for

:33:56.:33:59.

the England games, and of course, the police have the right

:34:00.:34:18.

the England games, and of course, some football, but we do not yet

:34:19.:34:20.

even know whether that would be England or not. I suspect crowds

:34:21.:34:26.

going to the pub for the royal wedding would be slightly different

:34:27.:34:29.

to those going to the pub for a foot or match. But leaving that to one

:34:30.:34:34.

side, don't most people watch these football matches, particularly at

:34:35.:34:38.

this time of night, in the comfort of their homes, with a few mates?

:34:39.:34:43.

No, actually, people have a tradition of going to the pub to

:34:44.:34:47.

watch matches which we do every weekend. The increase was up to 8%

:34:48.:34:56.

on food, as well as 5% on alcohol. Food is a very important part now

:34:57.:35:00.

make up, we need an economic boost in this country at the moment, as

:35:01.:35:04.

well as for pubs. We are still closing pubs. We have had a

:35:05.:35:08.

fantastic reduction in beer duty this year, we would like to see

:35:09.:35:28.

fantastic reduction in beer duty worth ?1.5 trillion. I have already

:35:29.:35:32.

said that the World Cup is worth ?50 million overall to pubs. That ?20

:35:33.:35:37.

million is purely for these extended hours. It is about drinking a bit

:35:38.:35:45.

more, but it is also about, I mean, beer in is a great British product,

:35:46.:35:50.

it is relatively low in alcohol. But then they will be pouring out of the

:35:51.:35:53.

pubs at one o'clock in the morning in a drunken stupor, creating

:35:54.:35:57.

problems for the police, creating noise... And some of us know that

:35:58.:36:02.

the proper sports in this world are rugby and cricket, so what are we

:36:03.:36:13.

going to do? Andrew, you know that football is a great British

:36:14.:36:17.

institution. We know that 35,000 pubs showed the last World Cup.

:36:18.:36:37.

institution. We know that 35,000 a proper sport. Even though England

:36:38.:36:40.

have not it is real men that play that. Where are you on this? I loved

:36:41.:36:50.

everything you said, and also, can we please bring back the real pub,

:36:51.:36:54.

as opposed to the gastropods which ICN my bit of London? They are so

:36:55.:37:07.

snooty, they are so fake. -- which I see in my bit. Where do you live? S

:37:08.:37:14.

W ten, West London. It is only posh pubs around there. What about in

:37:15.:37:26.

Scotland, will they be cheering on whoever England is playing, even if

:37:27.:37:28.

it is North Korea? whoever England is playing, even if

:37:29.:37:46.

that Labour had never liberalised the licensing laws in England. Let

:37:47.:37:52.

me just get a final word from our friend up in Leeds - how is your

:37:53.:38:00.

argument going with the Government? The reason we are asking now is

:38:01.:38:03.

because this is quite a complicated process, and would need a vote in

:38:04.:38:08.

both Houses of Parliament. But I think there is a lot of support for

:38:09.:38:10.

this, and from an economic perspective, there should be,

:38:11.:38:14.

whether you are interested in the football or not. Thank you for being

:38:15.:38:19.

with us. I will let you go because the pubs are open. Now, for the

:38:20.:38:23.

latest in our series of political thinkers. This week, the comedian

:38:24.:38:29.

Alistair McGowan has been to Giles' allotment to explain why his

:38:30.:38:33.

favourite thinker is the Green Economist EF Schumacher, best known

:38:34.:38:38.

for his 1973 bestselling book Small Is Beautiful.

:38:39.:38:59.

The environment and sustainability are ideas which we have become used

:39:00.:39:05.

to in the modern world, but where did they come from? I have come to

:39:06.:39:09.

my allotment to meet an impressionist the things we could

:39:10.:39:12.

all imitate the ideas of EF Schumacher. Alistair McGowan,

:39:13.:39:18.

welcome to my little patch of soil. We are going to dig up some

:39:19.:39:21.

beetroot. What attracts you about what Schumacher was saying? I first

:39:22.:39:27.

became an environmentalist, if you like, 25 years ago. I had read an

:39:28.:39:32.

article about recycling and how we were throwing away our national

:39:33.:39:36.

resources, and it was amazing to think that 15 years before that,

:39:37.:39:40.

Schumacher, in Small Is Beautiful, have been saying the same thing. He

:39:41.:39:44.

was ahead of his time, but actually we are still catching up with his

:39:45.:39:46.

theories. You should be we are still catching up with his

:39:47.:40:07.

Schumacher talking about? He wrote a treaty of 280 pages, and people are

:40:08.:40:11.

still trying to come to terms with it. But really, funny, it is living

:40:12.:40:16.

within your means. We all try to that financially. He refers to

:40:17.:40:21.

natural resources as capital, and that they are finite, so we have to

:40:22.:40:25.

manage them, and make sure we do not run out of them. In this country we

:40:26.:40:32.

are consuming enough that we would need three planets to sustain as if

:40:33.:40:36.

the whole world lived like us. Let's go and get some lunch. Does it have

:40:37.:40:48.

to be beetroot? It does not. Small Is Beautiful is undoubtedly one of

:40:49.:40:54.

the most influential and important political books of the 20th-century.

:40:55.:40:57.

His work speaks to people political books of the 20th-century.

:40:58.:41:16.

for our time. Fritz Schumacher, a German emigre who came to Britain

:41:17.:41:21.

before the Second World War, became an internationally influential

:41:22.:41:23.

economic thinker, statistician and economist, serving as CEO and

:41:24.:41:29.

adviser to the coal board in the 1950s for 20 years. But bits of his

:41:30.:41:35.

thinking made some people uncomfortable. He had ideas of the

:41:36.:41:40.

great chain of being, different kinds of economics, Buddhism, into

:41:41.:41:46.

his moral view about how human life should be led. So, it is not

:41:47.:41:51.

beetroot, we have got cake, but isn't there a problem for the

:41:52.:41:54.

environmental movement that it sometimes comes across as a bit of a

:41:55.:41:57.

religion, that if you do not believe, then you are a bad person?

:41:58.:42:02.

Possibly, yes, because people who believe in the environment show a

:42:03.:42:06.

lot of emotion. The very sensitive to the way the world is being

:42:07.:42:07.

ruined, the way animals are to the way the world is being

:42:08.:42:25.

screens, all of them on, nobody watching any of them. I thought,

:42:26.:42:29.

that sums up our wistfulness, our lack of sustainability, right

:42:30.:42:34.

there. You eat up, I have got a plan. Fritz Schumacher would be very

:42:35.:42:39.

proud of us. Michael Schumacher might not be quite so impressed. I

:42:40.:42:47.

suppose the essential question is, are we paying any attention to

:42:48.:42:51.

Schumacher today? Inadvertently, I think we are. A huge number of

:42:52.:42:54.

businesses have put sustainability at the call of their business model.

:42:55.:42:58.

They know it makes sense ethically, and also it saves them money. But I

:42:59.:43:04.

do think an awful lot of politicians, the likes of William

:43:05.:43:08.

Hague, Boris Johnson, and even Andrew Neil, still think that

:43:09.:43:12.

business is about making money at all costs. It cannot do that because

:43:13.:43:15.

there is a huge cost all costs. It cannot do that because

:43:16.:43:37.

are joined from Bristol by Ian Roderick, the director of the

:43:38.:43:41.

Schumacher Institute. Welcome to the programme. Can we discern an

:43:42.:43:47.

influence of this man on our current politics? I think the influence he

:43:48.:43:55.

has is indirect, in many ways, that we have both a vibrant green

:43:56.:44:00.

movement in this country and across Europe, which is extremely

:44:01.:44:08.

influenced by his work, and also, where we see issues is in the way

:44:09.:44:16.

that our politics is organised, which makes it very difficult to

:44:17.:44:20.

make big decisions. Schumacher in many ways worked towards big

:44:21.:44:25.

decisions. Should we see him as an environmentalist or as an economist?

:44:26.:44:26.

He was certainly environmentalist or as an economist?

:44:27.:44:48.

and how we are employed. Work was an extremely important aspect of his

:44:49.:44:53.

own work. Small Is Beautiful is the catchphrase which he is most

:44:54.:44:56.

associated with in the public mind - what did he mean by that? That is a

:44:57.:45:02.

very interesting thing. In many ways, you can rephrase it as

:45:03.:45:11.

appropriateness. Going just after things which are small is not

:45:12.:45:15.

necessarily right, it has to be of an appropriate level and scale. He

:45:16.:45:19.

was reacting to the gigantism of his day, where the idea that bigger was

:45:20.:45:25.

better. So, smallness is a nice idea, because it gets you back to

:45:26.:45:32.

working with your local people, with the community, getting everything in

:45:33.:45:35.

the right the community, getting everything in

:45:36.:46:02.

not seem to have won the argument? , it is true, but there is a

:46:03.:46:08.

tremendous social appeal. For me it is the catholic social justice. He

:46:09.:46:12.

says, take pleasure and pride in your work. Even if it is a small bit

:46:13.:46:20.

of carpentry that you are doing. Take great pleasure in that. You are

:46:21.:46:24.

never a cork in the wheel, you are part of a big, holistic industry. I

:46:25.:46:31.

know it sounds romantic and sentimental to you, but I loved

:46:32.:46:40.

Small is Beautiful. I remember when it came out. Is Scottish

:46:41.:46:45.

independence part of it? Schumacher is excited by

:46:46.:47:05.

reality of modern governance and globalisation is that we are at

:47:06.:47:07.

different levels and the trick is finding the best one. He was writing

:47:08.:47:15.

at a time in 1973 where prices have quadrupled and the world was running

:47:16.:47:19.

out of oil and sustainability became popular. The world is awash with oil

:47:20.:47:30.

and gas now, compared to 1973. People like him who said it was all

:47:31.:47:36.

going to run out for them it has not worked out that way. Yes, it has. We

:47:37.:47:42.

are running out of conventional oil, which peaked probably about two or

:47:43.:47:48.

three years ago. Now we are using unconventional oil from deep ocean

:47:49.:47:54.

drilling. It is difficult to get it and it is extremely expensive, that

:47:55.:47:56.

is why the Schumacher published his book.

:47:57.:48:16.

Certainly there are reserves that are being tapped, but we are very

:48:17.:48:21.

seriously seeing the decline in conventional oil and that is going

:48:22.:48:27.

to continue. We are trying to patch a system, we are trying to keep

:48:28.:48:30.

things going and we are very successful at that. Thank you for

:48:31.:48:40.

joining us today. With his incisive questions, his Ulster broke and the

:48:41.:48:46.

trademark overcoat, John Cole led us through the turbulent political

:48:47.:48:51.

events of the 80s. As the political editor he had a ringside seat on

:48:52.:48:56.

Thatcherism, the unions and the Falklands War. Yesterday at the age

:48:57.:49:01.

of 85 he passed away. Let's revisit some of his finest moments.

:49:02.:49:06.

For years I some of his finest moments.

:49:07.:49:27.

first offered another post... Rather dramatically I appeared on radio for

:49:28.:49:31.

having dashed downstairs from Radio 2 to say the same thing. You have

:49:32.:49:37.

heard about these atrocities and bombs and you do not expect them to

:49:38.:49:44.

happen to you. But life must go on. And your conference will go on? The

:49:45.:49:52.

conference will go on as usual. Which I joined by a colleague of

:49:53.:50:01.

John Cole's Nick Jones. It is a sad day for the country, for journalists

:50:02.:50:06.

and the BBC. He is famously known for his broadcasting, but he was

:50:07.:50:13.

originally a print journalist. He started in Belfast and was on the

:50:14.:50:15.

Guardian and on the observer and started in Belfast and was on the

:50:16.:50:35.

I also work. You had to remember that he had this background

:50:36.:50:40.

knowledge about the whole of the trade union movement and the

:50:41.:50:44.

industrial world which is exactly where Margaret Thatcher was

:50:45.:50:49.

interested. And where the story was. And you saw that moment with

:50:50.:50:56.

Margaret Thatcher after the bomb in Brighton and she sees John Cole and

:50:57.:51:01.

she picked him out. She knows he is a recognisable face, although the

:51:02.:51:04.

security people are pushing them away. She goes straight to John Cole

:51:05.:51:12.

and that is the tribute. He became a national figure through being the

:51:13.:51:16.

BBC's political editor and a very distinctive figure as well, not in

:51:17.:51:22.

the tradition of BBC political editor is. He had the ability to be

:51:23.:51:25.

emphatic. editor is. He had the ability to be

:51:26.:51:44.

remember those days, I am sure you do, we are talking about the early

:51:45.:51:49.

80s and there was not rolling news. The nine O'Clock News was a very

:51:50.:51:54.

important statement by the BBC. John Cole would come in and he would

:51:55.:51:59.

often have that lovely, herringbone coat, because it was very cold

:52:00.:52:05.

during the miners' strike, and there he would be. There was no doubt

:52:06.:52:10.

about it, he was putting that ending to the story in a way that people

:52:11.:52:15.

understood. That is the authority he brought and he had this tremendous

:52:16.:52:21.

experience in print, so he was able to command that position. Because of

:52:22.:52:26.

his knowledge and his contacts and the distinctive Ulster broke, he

:52:27.:52:35.

became very popular. it onto spitting image. Everybody

:52:36.:52:56.

tried to take him off. One of the things that was so memorable to me

:52:57.:53:01.

when I got into television was the camera crews used to say, we made

:53:02.:53:09.

John, because they used to frame the picture in the best possible way

:53:10.:53:14.

because he got on with everybody. They made sure there was never any

:53:15.:53:19.

problem with the shock of John Cole. That made it for him. You would turn

:53:20.:53:25.

on the television on a major story and you knew he would be there. Who

:53:26.:53:33.

did Mrs Thatcher turn to? John Cole. I do remember him and I think the

:53:34.:53:38.

authority he had, but it was never cold. He was a warm, sympathetic

:53:39.:53:44.

person as well as that authority. What a good man.

:53:45.:53:46.

as well. He carried writing dashed carried on writing during his BBC

:53:47.:54:08.

career and that had a lot of authority as well. When I look back

:54:09.:54:13.

on those years there is no doubt about it, because of rolling news,

:54:14.:54:17.

our journalism has become a bit diluted. There is not so much. It

:54:18.:54:25.

was very authoritative when he wrote it. Who has had a good week and who

:54:26.:54:33.

has had a shopper? This is the political week in 60 seconds. Ed

:54:34.:54:40.

Miliband stopped by for a quick cuppa and offered a friendly deal.

:54:41.:54:49.

The living wage. It was also boosted by the victory of Bill de Blasio,

:54:50.:54:51.

New York's left leaning Mayor. by the victory of Bill de Blasio,

:54:52.:55:16.

put. It is clear our adverse arrays are rubbing their hands with glee. I

:55:17.:55:25.

cannot apologise. That sorry is not the hardest word for the Toronto

:55:26.:55:33.

Mayor. I sincerely, sincerely, sincerely apologise. I mean that

:55:34.:55:48.

most sincerely, folks. You have got this new book out on Scotland. Am I

:55:49.:55:57.

right in thinking that the vote for Scotland to leave the United Kingdom

:55:58.:56:01.

and those who want to stay is not changing very much as the campaign

:56:02.:56:02.

gathers pace. No, it is changing very much as the campaign

:56:03.:56:23.

most recent poll makes it look as if it is down, but it has not changed

:56:24.:56:27.

on the yes side or the no side and that is after a year of campaigning.

:56:28.:56:32.

Am I right in thinking when the Nationalists had led conference

:56:33.:56:38.

there was a change in tactics or strategy? The emphasis had been on

:56:39.:56:44.

independence and the case for it. At this conference they started

:56:45.:56:46.

treating it more like a general election. If you voted to leave, the

:56:47.:56:52.

minimum wage would rise, the energy bills would fall, you can retire

:56:53.:56:56.

early, there will be no welfare cuts. I am going to fight it like a

:56:57.:57:02.

general election to see if that moves the polls. In a week or so we

:57:03.:57:10.

have the White Paper which has been overhyped. This is from Edinburgh?

:57:11.:57:12.

Yes, overhyped. This is from Edinburgh?

:57:13.:57:35.

they got a majority. I wonder what it would take to move the polls much

:57:36.:57:40.

more in their direction and bring the two sides much more even

:57:41.:57:50.

Stevens? The New York Times correspondent said it would take a

:57:51.:57:56.

seismic event in England, a catastrophic political crisis, a

:57:57.:57:59.

memo by the prime minister saying why Scotland was terrible, something

:58:00.:58:04.

of that magnitude to see a decisive shift, and that has not happened so

:58:05.:58:12.

far. There is still time. The quiz. Vince Cable is putting ?1.5 billion

:58:13.:58:21.

into Milton Keynes. What was it for? Driverless cars. That is the correct

:58:22.:58:24.

answer. Really? Driverless cars. That is the correct

:58:25.:58:47.

Remembrance Sunday. My guests will include labour's deputy leader

:58:48.:58:51.

Harriet Harman and the leader of UKIP, Nigel Farage. Sadly not

:58:52.:58:55.

together. That would be fun!

:58:56.:59:02.

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