22/11/2013 Daily Politics


22/11/2013

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The Co-op scandal takes another twist. Paul Flowers is arrested in

:00:52.:00:57.

connection with the drug supply investigation. We will discuss the

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continuing political fallout. He once hugged the Huskies and said,

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vote blue, go green. Now he wants to roll back on the green stuff. Is

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David Cameron 's modernising agenda as dead as a parrot? We go

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behind-the-scenes of return 's newest local TV channel. It is in

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Grimsby. -- Britain 's newest local TV channel. And we discuss the

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legacy of John F. Kennedy, who was assassinated in Dallas, 50 years ago

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today. They always ask, can you remember

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where you were when the news of the death of Kennedy came through 50

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years ago today? I can. All that is coming up in the next hour, as well

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as our regular look at the latest political news from 12:30pm. With

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us, the political columnist from the Times. Let's start with the news

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that the former chairman of the Co-op bank, Paul Flowers, has been

:02:11.:02:15.

arrested in Merseyside in connection with the drug supply investigation.

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He was filmed by the mail on Sunday which said he was handing over money

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for cocaine and discussing buying other hard, illegal drugs, -- drugs.

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Last night, the BBC also revealed that he had resigned from the Co-op

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group in June because of concerns about his lavish expense claims.

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Separately, he was also forced out, we are told, because the banking arm

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thought they had doubts about his competency for the job. These

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expense claims at the bank followed huge expense claims at a charity he

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worked for as well. The Times has splashed on this as well. The

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headline, Labour engulfed by Co-op scandal. Although the Conservatives

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have been dragged into this a bit as well, because of the historic ties

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between Labour and the Co-op in between Co-op people and Labour

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people, it is Labour in the front line, isn't it? The Co-op was

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cuddly, touchy, Feely and an ethical bank. It is supposed to be less

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cut-throat and the nice bank. All the politicians on all sides wanted

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to cosy up a bit. Ed Balls facilitated the Britannia deal.

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George Osborne also was keen to help the Co-op get a deal with Lloyds.

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And to get the 600 odd Lloyds branches to become Co-op branches.

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It was a way to get banks out of the banking crisis. We do not deal with

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evil bloodsuckers. Exactly. It seems there was an issue of competence at

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the top of the Co-op. It was both ethical issues for individuals but

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also management questions about how these appointments were made. It is

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interesting, you had Labour, Conservative, Lib Dems, all in

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favour of this super mutual. They were all doing what they could.

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George of -- George Osborne went out of his way. None of them asks

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themselves any of the really hard questions about, is this bank

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competent enough? What if the chairman like? Does he have banking

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experience? Is the balance sheet strong enough to do this? I think

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there is a danger, if there is too much mudslinging on either side. If

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the Tories tried to pin too much blame on labour, it will backfire.

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There are not really party political points to be scored too much on

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this. At the moment, the line of the Conservatives is to smear by

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association. What they have not yet got is the smoking gun. Or the

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smouldering e-mail. These are the smoking guns of the 21st-century.

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What they really need to make their case stick is showing some e-mail -

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some form of correspondence that that shows that Mr Flowers, Ed Balls

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or Ed Miliband - were actually in cahoots over something. No knowledge

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of how he resigned as a counsellor. There is a lack of clear evidence.

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We would like to know what Reverend Flowers said to Ed Miliband.

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Exactly. Another question about the laid-back in a funding crisis with

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the falling out of the unions and the co-operative bank. They have a

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big overdraft. There are wider questions about that. In the end,

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the voters think, these are all politicians smearing each other and

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they are all the same. It does combine the Watergate question for

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Labour. What did you know and when did you know it? That has not stuck

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yet. I do not think it has. What comes to mind with the Conservative

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Party bastion of it is all kicking off with MPs squaring up to each

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other. -- Conservative Party? It is said the Tories should revive the

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National Liberal party and encourage sitting MPs to sign up. It is about

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attracting liberal minded voters before the next election. Greg

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Barker and Nick Hurd have said he was right to ask tough questions.

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Other Tory MPs are fighting back. Stuart Jackson said, it is about the

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tribe. Peter bone oppose the idea of a second party, endorsing

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Conservative candidates, so he can stand on the joint UKIP Tory ticket.

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Not very useful. How well David Cameron break up the fight? The

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Prime Minister is siding with antimodern eyes is at this stage. He

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might have one time said, vote blue and go green. He did say that. A

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senior Tory source has told the paper is David Cameron wants to cut

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the green crap. Which approach with win the Tories more seats in 2015? I

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am joined by the director of the think tank, bright blue. And by a

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UKIP supporter. It is a long way to go. Ryan, I guess you agree with

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Nick Bowles. This is an impression that modernisers are somehow

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obsessed with gay marriage and huskies. -- Nick Boles. Nick Boles

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will say yes, let's have a tough line on immigration and a referendum

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on the EU. A lot of people out there are sceptical. Younger voters and

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people outside the southern heartlands. Ethnic minority voters.

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We need something for them. Things like international develop and gay

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marriage. This can be very appealing to voters. Let's have a broad offer.

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It is trying to strengthen conservatism. Nick Boles reminds me

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of a trendy new vicar. He strips out all the pews and puts in rave drapes

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on the walls and holds raves in the names. He wonders why, despite the

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best efforts, young people hate the church. They have jettisoned all the

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old principles and all the things that might have made them

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worthwhile. That is a good analogy, I think. We were just let that hang

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on the wall. What is the answer to this point? Nick Boles said that the

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Conservative Party is thought of by the Young as the party of the rich.

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He seems to think this is a presentational problem. It is about

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be our team. As it stands, it is the party of the rich. Nick Boles is

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very much part of this... He is certainly a minor aristocrat.

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Nothing is worse in Britain than being called a minor aristocrat. Try

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and convince me, have a go. It is not about abandoning conservatism.

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The problem with the Tory party is there is a perception they are not

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in touch with the modern world and they do not stand for people on low

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and middle incomes. We need policies which address that. It is not

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abandoning Conservative policies. Gay marriage is applying very

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special Conservative institution to the issue of gay rights. On helping

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the low paid, the biggest policy has been raising the personal tax

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allowance. This is what modernisers support. You care strongly about gay

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marriage. Young people really do not give a toss about that kind of

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thing. They care about jobs, earning a living and having a future. All of

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this is being denied them either current modernising policy of money

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printing. That is a real issue, rather than a fake issue. No one

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cares about gay marriage. Young people do not understand why people

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were opposed to it in the past. If we have taken it in our stride as a

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society, why make it an issue? Young people wonder why they were not

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allowed to marry. There is support across the country, overwhelming

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support. Nick Boles is so wrong. The Tories

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need to realise they have not won an election at right since 1992. The

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modernising in the last election was slightly fudged, I think. It got

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confused. If they do become the party of the rich, then they will

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never win. They are the party of the oligarchs. The party of people are

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people whose houses have been inflated by all of this. -- the

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party of the people whose houses have been inflated. They needed to

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have done a lot more to counterbalance it and they have. Is

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it time to cut green levies? Not all modernisers are from the rich. There

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is a whole range of people - people like Robert Halfon, from different

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backgrounds and standing for different things. Modernisation is

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also about beating this image of it being the party of the rich. That is

:13:44.:13:48.

a classic lower middle-class Tory issue. Should green levies be cut?

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On the green levies, there is all this talk about the dropping of the

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green agenda. Lots of things are being done. There is the renewable

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heat incentive and nuclear power station for the first time since the

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mid-90s. There is the Green Deal and the green investment bank. Lots is

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going on. Do not start out as a politician not answering the

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question because you grow into it anyway. Should the green levies be

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cut? There is a cost of living crisis and people are feeling the

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squeeze. It is right the government should be looking at how you should

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support people on very low incomes with bills. They are looking at

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other ways to support green energy. They are looking at maybe putting it

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into general taxation. There are alternative ways to do this. It is

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the case that renewable energy should be supported. Do it in a way

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that is fair and make sense. You are sounding like a member of the Tory

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Cabinet. Of course the green levies should be cut. That is one of the

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main reasons why we are having this cost of living crisis. Energy bills

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are being inflated by lunatic green policies which have been endorsed by

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David Cameron, in succession to Ed Miliband. The reason we should be

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doing this is there is no issue. Why vote for someone where they all have

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the same problem? It may be right or wrong in terms of substance but is

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it not quite clear in the Tory leadership, as they look back at

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2010 and say they fought modernising agenda and did not win the election,

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which they hate people to point out, and they are moving towards what you

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would call the right. They are moving towards traditional routes

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because their polling suggests that is the way to get more votes.

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Successive Tory leaders tried that strategy and it hasn't worked. David

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Cameron's authentic message was that he was going to be a different kind

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of Conservative. He was going to appeal to a wider range of people...

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It was all PR driven, wasn't it? You question whether what kind of a

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leader is he? There is a lack of authenticity about where he is going

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now. He vote for Ed Miliband's climate change? Exactly. He is

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riding with huskies. If his attitude and the Tory Party's

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is on the defensive, w don't you join the Tories and drag them your

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way? I like to think of UKIP as the equivalent of the Tea Party. It is

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the conscience of the Conservative Party. It is like the Tory Party in

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exile and its job is to remind the Tory Party that there is this

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massive constituency of voters who would like lower taxes and less

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regulation and smaller energy bills. The Republicans winning in Florida

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and the Republicans won in New Jersey? It is not the pertected

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model -- perfect model. All parties are coalitions and you are only

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going to win if you are coalition to more of the centre and if you become

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a coalition to the right, they will not win. So far they have not won

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anything they have done. You two go and have a chat! I can see a meeting

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of minds at some stage. I can convince them. When his frontal

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lobes develop. Thanks. Next week the first of a new

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breed of local TV stations starts broadcasting in Grimsby. Funded by

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advertising, sponsorship and a commercial agreement with the BBC,

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the new channels will feature local news, sport, culture and,

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entertainment and they will be available on Freeview Channel A.

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That's a good position to be on on the electronic programme guide. The

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new stations were dreamt up by Jeremy Hunt because he is with the

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NHS. He saw them as a way of strengthening local democracy. Was

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he right? Giles has been to Grimsby for a look behind the scenes of

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Estuary TV. Behind all the glitz and fanfare, in

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an office in Grimsby institute, the town's university, three staff at

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Estuary TV that launches next Tuesday, the first of a new batch of

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licensed stations delivering the Government's local TV policy putting

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the final touches to their programmes and promos forhe viewers.

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Wow, excited. I know! I should think so too.

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Excited they are and if why is daunted, there is eight full-time

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staff, but one suspects an anticipated and very needed army of

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volunteers. There is a busy schedule to fill. They will offer news,

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sport, culture and politics in a non for profit community station for the

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Humber region. But this kind of US-style local TV is an idea that's

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been tried before in the UK and failed. Why might it be different

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this time? There will be interaction in terms of people working for the

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station, people volunteering to make programmes, but young people coming

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here to train and learn their craft. It is important to stress that, you

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know, we can't be complacent. We really want to give local TV a great

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launch, and a following wind, but it is important everyone involved in

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local television works hard to make it happen.

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That's it from Estuary TV news. Join us again tomorrow evening at 5.40pm.

:19:56.:20:00.

Until then, from all of us, goodbye. So that's the programme that goes

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out every day, clearly you think there is a market for this? I think

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there is a market. For instance, through our Facebook page we had a

:20:10.:20:13.

local school group say we are celebrating tenth birthday. Come and

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film us. It was the first request, we have been along, but to turn it

:20:18.:20:21.

on its head, we gave the camera to the children. We let them film and

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do the interviews. There is that level of it is not waving

:20:28.:20:31.

camcorder-style. What do you like doing out of school? I like really

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playing. We have put it together as one of the first packages to go out.

:20:42.:20:46.

Things like that make us a bit different. And we're watching

:20:47.:20:51.

Estuary TV. Believe me, the peculiarities of

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doing a television report about the launch of a television station are

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not lost on me, but television is changing. What people watch, who is

:20:59.:21:03.

watching it and how they watch it is changing out of all proportion and

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maybe that's why the Government thought it was time to have another

:21:09.:21:11.

go at this local TV idea where it failed in the past and you get the

:21:12.:21:14.

sense that people doing it think it is a good time. They know it will be

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hard work. They know there is no guarantees of success, but it is not

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inevitable that they will fail. We are joined by Ed Hall, the Chief

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Executive of Comux. They are the company responsible for the

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infrastructure which will beam the new TV channels to your homes.

:21:42.:21:45.

Welcome. Thank you. How do you pronounce it? Comux. As

:21:46.:21:54.

in multiplex. I understand you have admitted that many examples over the

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last 20 years have shown the business model for local TV didn't

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stack up. Why is this different? It is dramatically different. These

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channels are going to appear on Channel eight on Freeview. In the

:22:10.:22:13.

past, they were in very difficult places to find. So most TVs didn't

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pick them up and they were difficult to measure. So one station here, one

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station there, they didn't have an awed cens that was measured that

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they could sell. This time, 12 million, more than 12 million homes

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will have a new channel eight. You have created a commodity that can be

:22:31.:22:34.

sold properly. Are they only on for a couple of

:22:35.:22:44.

hours a day? You have various plans. Will they need to be advertising

:22:45.:22:48.

funded? They are advertiser funded. They have relaxations from Ofcom.

:22:49.:22:54.

The BBC has been forced, I think, to chip in ?40 million, isn't it? The

:22:55.:22:57.

BBC has enjoyed investing in local Television. Really? Who are you

:22:58.:23:02.

speaking to at the BBC? The BBC Trust. There is a warm

:23:03.:23:08.

relationship... Ah, the Trust. A warm relationship? You were talking

:23:09.:23:11.

about Estuary TV. There are people that worked in that newsroom, that

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are already working and have been working for the BBC for a loum.

:23:17.:23:22.

There are established relationships. Presumably the ads that the stations

:23:23.:23:27.

will go for will be different from the ads that will run on ITV or Sky

:23:28.:23:33.

or Channel 4? I mean, that will be up to the local stations to decide.

:23:34.:23:37.

They would be very local, would they? We can see people talking

:23:38.:23:41.

about local advertising, but also they are effectively a national

:23:42.:23:44.

network as well. So they will benefit from that too. What do you

:23:45.:23:50.

think of this, Rachel? I am sceptical that it will transform

:23:51.:23:55.

local democracy. The biggest threat, you will get ended free sheets from

:23:56.:24:01.

the council. I am not sure this is the solution. People sort of in the

:24:02.:24:06.

Twitter ageks social media, is a much more gal tarian way of people

:24:07.:24:10.

communicating with each other locally. It seems a bit artificial

:24:11.:24:15.

to create the stations. I have not heard anyone stay that the launch of

:24:16.:24:21.

a local television will be a sudden earthquake in local democracy, we

:24:22.:24:26.

are talking about 19 new newsrooms up and down the country with new

:24:27.:24:32.

journalists. As of today, there are hundreds of Andrew Neils applying

:24:33.:24:40.

for jobs! The viewers have just gone... That's the generation. We

:24:41.:24:46.

are a generation. We started our careers in local radio, or local

:24:47.:24:53.

newspapers and that's dried up and this opens that up. These newsrooms

:24:54.:25:01.

aren't going to be full of Oxbridge graduates and these will be demock

:25:02.:25:21.

ra ra tising. John F Kennedy was assassinated 50

:25:22.:25:30.

years ago at 12. 30 local time. What is the Kennedy legacy? Did he change

:25:31.:25:37.

things? Can any of today's politicians hold such an iconic role

:25:38.:25:43.

in the world? Here is look back on the presidency like no other.

:25:44.:25:54.

Ask not what your country can do for you, can what you can do for your

:25:55.:26:07.

country. # I heard there was a secret call #

:26:08.:26:10.

We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things. Not

:26:11.:26:14.

because they are easy, but because they are hard.

:26:15.:26:28.

NEWSREEL: Within the past week, unmistakable evidence established

:26:29.:26:36.

the fact that a series of offensive sites is now in preparation on that

:26:37.:26:49.

imprisoned island. Today, in the world of freedom, the

:26:50.:27:03.

proudest boost is... Mrs Kennedy is presented with a bouquet of red

:27:04.:27:12.

roses. The streets are lined with spectators waiting for their chance

:27:13.:27:17.

to see the president. It appears as if something happened in the

:27:18.:27:21.

motorcade group. I repeat, something has happened in the motorcade group.

:27:22.:27:31.

The President was hit in the head. That's an unconfirmed report that

:27:32.:27:40.

the president was hit in the head. From Dallas Texas, the flash

:27:41.:27:45.

apparently official, President Kennedy died at 1pm Central Standard

:27:46.:27:55.

Time. 2pm Eastern Standard Time, some 38 memberships ago.

:27:56.:27:59.

-- minutes ago. And the last image of these power

:28:00.:28:21.

pictures was the President's young son saluting his father's coffin.

:28:22.:28:38.

Welcome to both of you. Aren't these pictures incredibly powerful. I

:28:39.:28:42.

remember the day myself when it came through and it was early evening

:28:43.:28:46.

news on the BBC at the time. If one wants to cut away from the emotion

:28:47.:28:49.

though and 50 years later, the reason we are talking about him

:28:50.:28:54.

today is because he died when he did. Yes. If he had survived his

:28:55.:28:59.

presidency was in trouble. It wasn't sure he was going to be re-elected

:29:00.:29:03.

and most of the 21 major Bills he was trying to get through Congress

:29:04.:29:07.

were getting nowhere? That's right and his untimely death puts him

:29:08.:29:13.

outside history doesn't it? You can ask yourself of Tony Blair if he

:29:14.:29:17.

died two years in, what would we be saying about him now? I don't think

:29:18.:29:22.

it is just that. I think he was a brilliant speech maker who spoke for

:29:23.:29:27.

a whole nation and he did capture, he had had that sense of a new

:29:28.:29:34.

generation and we didn't have time to be disappointed in him, but he

:29:35.:29:37.

did capture something important about that particular time in

:29:38.:29:41.

history. We didn't have time to be dus appointed in him, but also,

:29:42.:29:46.

unlike today, we didn't know everything about him? That's right.

:29:47.:29:51.

We didn't write about his father being a bootlegger. We the didn't

:29:52.:29:58.

know he was a serial philanderer and all that would have come out today?

:29:59.:30:02.

That's right. The important thing about JFK was the new generation. I

:30:03.:30:07.

did a bit of homework as you can imagine here facing you! It is

:30:08.:30:13.

always a good idea? He was the first American president to be born in the

:30:14.:30:20.

20th century. Y.. A post-war generation? For various reasons

:30:21.:30:25.

apart for his personal charisma, he would be remembered and he did

:30:26.:30:28.

inspire people with a fresh sense of optimism when he became president in

:30:29.:30:42.

1960. The terrible pain is that it was his death, and particularly the

:30:43.:30:48.

manner of his death, that unleashed all lease changes which allowed

:30:49.:30:50.

President Johnson to get the civil rights bills through, the tax

:30:51.:30:55.

cutting bills, to begin the big society. Kennedy had wanted to do a

:30:56.:31:02.

fair bit of that but Johnson went much further. That is a very good

:31:03.:31:06.

point. We will never know what would have happened. The point raised by

:31:07.:31:14.

Kwasi Kwarteng is very important. He had a real experience of the war and

:31:15.:31:19.

a horror of war. He talked about the tyranny of struggle against disease

:31:20.:31:26.

and war. The career politician of today does not quite have the

:31:27.:31:31.

real-life career behind them. He was a great friend of Britain. He had a

:31:32.:31:37.

very anti-British, Irish father, who had actually told Roosevelt, they

:31:38.:31:45.

get Britain. JFK was very pro-this country. It is good to contrast him

:31:46.:31:55.

with his father. Somehow he managed to project a kind of innocence, if

:31:56.:31:59.

you like. We know that his private life was chequered and all the rest

:32:00.:32:05.

of it. He projected an optimism and innocence. He was a great friend of

:32:06.:32:10.

Britain. We saw clips of him in Germany. He was a Cold War warrior.

:32:11.:32:19.

He touched people beyond America. Don't you think it is that which

:32:20.:32:25.

politicians now can learn from? There is a danger in going down the

:32:26.:32:29.

route of fear and smear is we were talking about earlier. That was

:32:30.:32:40.

President Obama. He got a second term. Absolutely. I think if JFK had

:32:41.:32:47.

a second term, I think he would have got into a lot of the difficulties

:32:48.:32:56.

that Obama hands. He was always a little bit equivocal on civil

:32:57.:33:00.

rights. He needed the Southern Democrats. We would have seen how

:33:01.:33:08.

far he would have gone. Where he was not equivocal was on the subject of

:33:09.:33:12.

Cold War. He believed it could be contained. The Cuban missile crisis,

:33:13.:33:17.

the days of lonely struggle with his brother against military advisers,

:33:18.:33:22.

that was his seminal moment. It was important. It changed the view of

:33:23.:33:27.

the world. This was a global issue. Actually, the legacy of that in

:33:28.:33:31.

terms of the Non-Proliferation Treaty, that was huge. People seem

:33:32.:33:41.

to forget he fought the 1960 election against Mr Nixon. He said

:33:42.:33:46.

there was a missile gap and America had to build more missiles. Turns

:33:47.:33:54.

out he was totally wrong. The one thing that comes through is the

:33:55.:33:58.

eloquence of the man, the authority of the man. Even when you know

:33:59.:34:02.

everything, it is hard to stop thinking, that is a decent person.

:34:03.:34:08.

Politics is about leadership and charisma. I go back to the point I

:34:09.:34:13.

was making. If it gets down to the lowest common denominator smear and

:34:14.:34:17.

counterclaim, everyone gets buried in the jungle. The leaders who win

:34:18.:34:24.

rise above it. They are authentic. We are going to have to leave it

:34:25.:34:29.

there. I could talk with you for the next three hours. We might still

:34:30.:34:34.

have some viewers if we did. Coming up... A regular look at what has

:34:35.:34:38.

been going on in the European arena. Now it is time to say goodbye to my

:34:39.:34:44.

guest of the day, Rachel is a vest. We are going to be focusing on

:34:45.:34:49.

Europe and discussing the EU budget and joining the European Union. Here

:34:50.:34:53.

is our guide from the latest in Europe in just 60 seconds. EU

:34:54.:35:01.

governments agreed to the European Commission plan to delay the auction

:35:02.:35:06.

of the next round of permits for the emissions trading scheme. The aim is

:35:07.:35:10.

to push up the price of the permit and encourage low carbon energy.

:35:11.:35:15.

MEPs voted overwhelmingly for the European Parliament to be given the

:35:16.:35:18.

right to decide where it is based. It is a victory for the single-seat

:35:19.:35:23.

campaign, he wants to scrap the Strasbourg parliament and make

:35:24.:35:26.

Brussels the official seat. The Spanish ambassador was summoned to

:35:27.:35:31.

the Foreign Office to explain why a Spanish survey ship entered

:35:32.:35:33.

territorial waters and defied orders to leave from the Royal Navy for 22

:35:34.:35:40.

hours. The European Parliament committee for economic and monetary

:35:41.:35:44.

affairs backed a proposal to give every EU citizens the right to have

:35:45.:35:48.

a basic bank account with a debit card. MEPs voted in favour of a new

:35:49.:35:53.

40% target for the number of women on company boards. Backed by a

:35:54.:35:56.

threat to dissolve companies that do not meet the quota. With us now for

:35:57.:36:08.

the next 30 minutes, I am joined by Gerard Batten and the leader of the

:36:09.:36:13.

Labour only members of the European Parliament. This is about 40% target

:36:14.:36:27.

of number of women. Would it be compulsory for companies to have 40%

:36:28.:36:33.

women? That is what the report said. However, we think legislation

:36:34.:36:38.

should be the last resort. It is ridiculous that most companies do

:36:39.:36:43.

not have enough women. 20% on the FTSE 100 companies have women on the

:36:44.:36:46.

board. All the reports show that when women are on billboards, it

:36:47.:36:52.

could be better. Do you think in the end it would have to be compulsory?

:36:53.:36:59.

It does not work on a voluntary capacity. Putting aside the pros and

:37:00.:37:07.

cons for doing this, what has it got to do with Europe? I thought you

:37:08.:37:13.

might ask that. If this is about big companies and many of those big

:37:14.:37:18.

companies have subsidiaries all over Europe... The boards are based in

:37:19.:37:23.

London or Paris. It is a problem across Europe. I would prefer the

:37:24.:37:27.

government to tackle this will stop if not, it has to be done at

:37:28.:37:32.

European level. Women are fed up with it. I assume this is a red rag

:37:33.:37:42.

to a bull. I had 30 years working in the commercial well before I was

:37:43.:37:47.

elected to anything. I had women bosses. There was never a shortage

:37:48.:37:51.

of women going in for positions and they got them on merit. Businesses

:37:52.:37:57.

want to be successful. The reason why there are always women is

:37:58.:38:03.

because they are too stupid? Maybe they are not applying for the jobs

:38:04.:38:07.

for other reasons. If you are elevated to that position, it is

:38:08.:38:11.

very long hours and very arduous and lots of men do not want to it. You

:38:12.:38:20.

could argue for and against. It is interesting you said, I wish the

:38:21.:38:24.

national government would do it. We elect that government and there is a

:38:25.:38:28.

debate. If the government that we elect do not do it, we in Europe

:38:29.:38:35.

will do it anyway. Something has to be done. Women are fed up. It is

:38:36.:38:39.

difficult for UKIP to say they have no women any peas. Do they have

:38:40.:38:53.

none? They have no women MEPs. We had two and they resigned. Godfrey

:38:54.:39:08.

has a particular sense of humour. You must not take it too literally.

:39:09.:39:14.

I am sure you met him. I realise I made a big mistake going there. Is

:39:15.:39:23.

this going to happen? I do not think so. We are coming up to European

:39:24.:39:28.

election and I do not think we are going to get that far. You also want

:39:29.:39:33.

to impose Draconian measures. One of them is dissolving the company. This

:39:34.:39:38.

is what the EU is good at, destroying jobs. It is about sending

:39:39.:39:44.

a message to these companies. We will see what happens. Remember when

:39:45.:39:48.

David Cameron wanted to force cuts on the European budget in February.

:39:49.:39:53.

The Prime Minister said, the British public can be proud that we have cut

:39:54.:40:00.

the seven-year credit card limit for the European Union for the first

:40:01.:40:03.

time ever. It has taken a toll now. It will be finally ratified. Months

:40:04.:40:15.

of hard bargaining ended. The seven-year budget has been

:40:16.:40:21.

approved. It is a 3.5% cut in EU spending. The cuts particularly

:40:22.:40:26.

affect EU spending on European polar regions. This is called cohesion.

:40:27.:40:33.

Major transnational infrastructure projects, help for poorer regions

:40:34.:40:36.

and agricultural subsidies remain the largest area of EU spending. The

:40:37.:40:41.

budget is equivalent to 1% of the 28 member states gross national income.

:40:42.:40:47.

The ratification of the budget has been welcomed by the chief

:40:48.:40:50.

negotiator of the European Parliament. It has provided

:40:51.:40:55.

stability within the EU. There seems to have been a certain amount of

:40:56.:41:02.

fudge. As the European Parliament we accepted the level that the council

:41:03.:41:06.

decided. Because that level is so long, longer than previous years, we

:41:07.:41:13.

tried to make it more operational by introducing more flexibility and

:41:14.:41:17.

introducing the possibility to have a revision in 2016 and by avoiding

:41:18.:41:23.

some payment of the previous periods should be transferred to the next

:41:24.:41:28.

period. We asked for more payment in 2013. That makes it the framework

:41:29.:41:36.

notwithstanding it. It can work and can permit the European Union.

:41:37.:41:49.

Earlier this week, this man was elected the leader in the European

:41:50.:41:55.

Parliament. I was expecting you to congratulate me. I happy with the

:41:56.:42:03.

3.5% cut? This is the first time ever we have seen a cut with the EU

:42:04.:42:08.

budget overall. Both with the Parliament, the commission and

:42:09.:42:12.

Parliament asking for an increase. The commission asked for a slight

:42:13.:42:15.

increase and the Parliament a bigger one. What we have now done is set a

:42:16.:42:21.

precedent. This is the first ever cut of an EU budget, whether it is

:42:22.:42:26.

the seven-year budget for the annual budget. It is a great president. We

:42:27.:42:31.

can carry it on to make sure we are spending money more effectively. Is

:42:32.:42:38.

it a bit of a fudge? There is a revision clause which will mean a

:42:39.:42:42.

review of the income resources in 2016. Could it be shut up there? The

:42:43.:42:49.

Parliament can try, just as they tried today to allay the whole deal.

:42:50.:42:59.

We know that. A group. That. Hasn't David Cameron done very well rested

:43:00.:43:10.

Mark there is a slight decrease in the budget. -- done very well? There

:43:11.:43:16.

is a slight decrease in the budget. Some other measures that were voted

:43:17.:43:21.

on yesterday had, at current prices. As we go through the next seven

:43:22.:43:25.

years, those prices will increase due to inflation so they will be

:43:26.:43:29.

coming back and asking for more money. I think we should have done

:43:30.:43:34.

more. I would like to see more taken from the CHP and put into

:43:35.:43:53.

innovation. -- CAP. Tony Blair made an attempt to negotiate part of the

:43:54.:44:10.

rebate in returned for -- in return for improved agricultural policy. It

:44:11.:44:18.

failed. My understanding is it has also come down as a percentage of

:44:19.:44:25.

overall EU spending. It has. It is only 1.5% of GDP and 40% of the

:44:26.:44:31.

budget. It is ridiculous. We need to prioritise that. If we joined in

:44:32.:44:40.

1957, this would not have happened. This is a whole other discussion.

:44:41.:44:46.

Are you concerned that some of the poorer areas of the EU look like the

:44:47.:44:52.

ones to take the brunt of the reduction? It is concerning. In

:44:53.:44:58.

these to be fair and equitable. Some of the Portuguese say we do not

:44:59.:45:02.

support them on this. I would like them to use that money in a

:45:03.:45:08.

different way to make sure the country is growing. The funny thing

:45:09.:45:12.

about the Common agricultural policy is it is not agreed a cross-party.

:45:13.:45:21.

-- it is agreed across the parties. When Mr Cameron goes to Brussels, is

:45:22.:45:30.

agricultural policy - is it one area he should aim to repatriate back to

:45:31.:45:31.

Westminster? The Government is saying let's look

:45:32.:45:41.

at these different areas, but there are many loud voices over here

:45:42.:45:48.

saying we have to repatriate part of agriculture. What are you going to

:45:49.:45:53.

do as leader now of this unruly mob? It is funny when you become a

:45:54.:45:57.

leader, other leaders congratulated me and some said you will enjoy it

:45:58.:46:00.

for a couple of days and then you have got to get on with the work and

:46:01.:46:06.

enjoy the poisoned cal lass. What's the gsh What's the plan? People are

:46:07.:46:18.

talking about EU immigration. And people are worried about welfare.

:46:19.:46:22.

People are worried about it, but it doesn't mean there is anything you

:46:23.:46:27.

can do? This is one of the things, can we be cleverer? You have to

:46:28.:46:36.

protect your own national interests and you can't do this. We cannot

:46:37.:46:42.

stop these people coming. A referendum has been promised. While

:46:43.:46:46.

we are in the EU, you know, if you want to leave, what happens is we

:46:47.:46:50.

have to say, what can we do while we are here now? The answer to that in

:46:51.:46:54.

January next year, the Government and the Conservative Party can do

:46:55.:46:58.

nothing about giving another 29 billion people the right to turn up.

:46:59.:47:01.

That's what you are saying and that's true. This is why we have to

:47:02.:47:08.

leave the European Union. Richard Ashworth was a europhile. How would

:47:09.:47:14.

we classify you? You have to wait and see. People always try and

:47:15.:47:23.

pigeon hole me. I would assume you are the one who knows best. How

:47:24.:47:27.

would we classify you? I am sceptical of the current European

:47:28.:47:31.

project. In 2005 when I was elected people talked about creating a

:47:32.:47:34.

United States of Europe and it don't want to see that. If if there was no

:47:35.:47:40.

renegotiation, if it was the choice between the status quo of our

:47:41.:47:44.

membership now and getting out, how would you vote? If there was a

:47:45.:47:47.

referendum tomorrow, no change. I would be tempted to vote to leave.

:47:48.:47:54.

That's why I think we have renegotiate. How high would the

:47:55.:48:00.

temptation be? Seven or eight. I would be tempted to vote. That's why

:48:01.:48:04.

we need a renegotiation. No one is going to renegotiate. Mr

:48:05.:48:16.

Barroso said it. Well, he won't be around. We can conclude he is not

:48:17.:48:23.

Richard Ashworth? Absolutely. Perhaps the only thing more

:48:24.:48:30.

frustrating been having your travel plans disrupted by an airline, when

:48:31.:48:36.

it comes to the way airlines deal with delays or passengers who have

:48:37.:48:43.

been bumped off because the flight as been overbooked. How will new

:48:44.:49:00.

proposed plans come to pass? Personal story, I was flying back to

:49:01.:49:05.

London from Amsterdam a few weeks ago with KLM, I was told my flight

:49:06.:49:10.

was overbooked and I wouldn't be going anywhere until the following

:49:11.:49:14.

morning. I wasn't best pleased, but when I went to the customer services

:49:15.:49:18.

desk, there were passengers from all over Europe who were stuck. Every

:49:19.:49:23.

flight you travel on is over booked and it is not an accident. It is the

:49:24.:49:29.

company policy of almost every major European airline. Usually people

:49:30.:49:33.

think it is a one off occurrence, it just happened. It is not. On

:49:34.:49:37.

particularly on busy routes, you find it quite a bit. So for me, it

:49:38.:49:43.

is a bigger problem than is admitted by the airlines and it is a bigger

:49:44.:49:47.

problem than the travelling public understand.

:49:48.:49:49.

It is not just over booking and it is not just KLM who declined to give

:49:50.:49:56.

us an interview. Airline policies on delays, and cancellation are in the

:49:57.:49:59.

sights of European Parliament and the commission. They are in the

:50:00.:50:02.

process of strengthening EU regulation 261. It is supposed to

:50:03.:50:06.

safeguard passengers' rights, about you Brian and his colleagues fear it

:50:07.:50:12.

is barely worth the paper it is written on. The airlines have driven

:50:13.:50:16.

a coach and horses through the legislation and the reason why we

:50:17.:50:19.

are looking at the regulation again is because the regulation has been

:50:20.:50:22.

abused by the airlines to the detriment of the travelling public.

:50:23.:50:26.

As you might expect, the airline industry doesn't quite see it like

:50:27.:50:30.

that. Their European trade body does accept the rules will change, it is

:50:31.:50:34.

a question of by how much? Please don't make those rules so

:50:35.:50:43.

strict that you cripple the industry and ultimately harm the interests of

:50:44.:50:46.

the passenger which could actually happen if the rules are so strict

:50:47.:50:54.

that we are heavily burdened with them and acceptable compromise will

:50:55.:50:57.

be difficult to reach. Having said that, the commission proposal is

:50:58.:51:03.

really pretty fair and balanced as far as we're concerned. Which is why

:51:04.:51:07.

MEPs think the commission's plan to enforce the existing rules rather

:51:08.:51:12.

than add to them is lame. I don't think they go anywhere near far

:51:13.:51:23.

enough. The commission has failed to recognise 261 is about passenger

:51:24.:51:26.

rights, not airline rights The timetable to get it through is

:51:27.:51:30.

tight. It has to be signed of by the Parliament, the commission and the

:51:31.:51:33.

Council of Ministers and that worries consumers groups We would

:51:34.:51:37.

support the European Parliament approach. We are much more concerned

:51:38.:51:41.

about the council position, with the member states, with the Governments

:51:42.:51:45.

because they seem to wish to water down the protection that would be

:51:46.:51:50.

granted to air passengers. We see there is inference of the airline

:51:51.:51:54.

companies to member states. The reform maybe on the runway, but it

:51:55.:51:58.

is not certain to takeoff, in Europe, as with flights, change can

:51:59.:52:03.

be subject to delay, re-routing and cancellation.

:52:04.:52:08.

His flight back was delayed! Have you ever been bumped? It is

:52:09.:52:12.

something what happens regularly. What about yourself? I haven't,

:52:13.:52:16.

Andrew. In America, when you get bumped, they have a bidding war.

:52:17.:52:19.

They say, if you don't take this flight, we will give you $500 and

:52:20.:52:26.

start at $50 and it goes up to ?500. Do they do that in Europe? I was on

:52:27.:52:32.

a flight where someone as bumped off and they were offered compensation

:52:33.:52:34.

and another flight. Are the changes going to make a difference? Well,

:52:35.:52:38.

they could be stronger. This is about passengers rights and it is

:52:39.:52:41.

important and it is something that that is Europe-wide. This is one of

:52:42.:52:46.

the benefits of being part of the EU. Is this something that would

:52:47.:52:53.

have to be tackled by the EU? They should be done properly by

:52:54.:52:58.

inter-governmental agreements so national governments can agree these

:52:59.:53:02.

things across borders and that's what used to happen. I don't see why

:53:03.:53:06.

are that couldn't happen in the future. Will you be voting for this?

:53:07.:53:11.

No, we will abstain. We never vote for more EU legislation as a matter

:53:12.:53:16.

of principle. What we did in October when there was a directive before

:53:17.:53:19.

the Parliament to increase pilots hours and health and safety is as

:53:20.:53:25.

far more important and we were the only party to oppose that. Is that

:53:26.:53:29.

right to vote for increased pilots hours? Well, this was about

:53:30.:53:34.

Europe-wide and it meant that member States could do better than that if

:53:35.:53:37.

they wanted to. It didn't stop member states from improving that

:53:38.:53:42.

position. It created a minimum standard. We had strong

:53:43.:53:46.

representation from the unions. It was not something they felt... The

:53:47.:53:51.

pilots union is strong and sets standard. If you seen the

:53:52.:53:54.

documentaries about the long hours that pilots work and the bad

:53:55.:53:57.

conditions they sleep in when they are not flying. There was a story

:53:58.:54:02.

that two fell asleep at the same time? There is no point if doing

:54:03.:54:05.

this if you abstain. We voted against that motion. Let's move on

:54:06.:54:08.

because Albania is waiting in the wings. It looks like Macedonia is

:54:09.:54:14.

further ahead in the queue. Iceland are not really bothered anymore and

:54:15.:54:19.

Ukraine said they are not interested. They are still over the

:54:20.:54:27.

moon in zag Zagreb. How does a country join the EU? Here is Adam

:54:28.:54:34.

with his latest of the A to Z of Europe.

:54:35.:54:46.

How do you get into the EU? I've come to mini Europe in brust les to

:54:47.:54:51.

find out. -- Brussels to find out. First a country has to fit

:54:52.:54:57.

fundamental criteria, they were written in Copenhagen in the 1990s,

:54:58.:55:04.

the country has to have respect for law, a fully functioning market

:55:05.:55:08.

economy. If a country broadly measures up it

:55:09.:55:15.

becomes a candidate and then it is put under the magifying glass with

:55:16.:55:21.

the EU telling it what reforms have to be made. Finally, there is a

:55:22.:55:26.

treaty. All of this takes ages. Just ask the ambassador for the most

:55:27.:55:32.

recent arrival, Croatia. It started in 2000 when there was an opening

:55:33.:55:36.

towards the EU prospective of Croatia. Our formal application to

:55:37.:55:42.

become a member was sub smitted in -- submitted in 2003, the

:55:43.:55:46.

negotiations started in 2005 and ended in 2011 and we entered the

:55:47.:55:51.

union in 2013. I would say, it was 13 years of hard work and personal

:55:52.:55:56.

sacrifice, but in our case, 13 ended up being a lucky number.

:55:57.:56:02.

Inevitably, politics come into it. For example, EU officials wanted to

:56:03.:56:05.

delay the accession of Greece, but they were overruled by the

:56:06.:56:09.

politicians. The expansion into Eastern Europe in the early 2000s

:56:10.:56:17.

was champ beyond by -- championed by Britain and others weren't

:56:18.:56:22.

welcoming. While we are now potentially ambling towards the

:56:23.:56:25.

exit, there are plenty of countries who would love a spot in mini Europe

:56:26.:56:31.

like Albania. At the end of the process, we will see we have

:56:32.:56:35.

transformed ourselves, our standards of living. We will see that our

:56:36.:56:40.

industries and the other sectors of the economies, they will have, they

:56:41.:56:45.

will be better placed to benefit from the possibilities that the

:56:46.:56:50.

single market, the European single market offers to them. Some people

:56:51.:56:55.

say enlargement is the EU's most successful foreign policy because

:56:56.:56:58.

the lure of membership encourages countries to develop. Others fear

:56:59.:57:02.

that Europe is becoming quite the opposite of this place. Far too big.

:57:03.:57:13.

I would love to go there. Who would you love to see come in next? Serbia

:57:14.:57:18.

is a good candidate and if it brings peace and stability to these

:57:19.:57:25.

countries and good governance. Is it fit for purpose? We have to make

:57:26.:57:29.

sure it is before we consider it joining in.

:57:30.:57:34.

I don't mind who comes in, as long as we can leave first. They can take

:57:35.:57:37.

our place! It is significant that Ukraine which looked like was moving

:57:38.:57:41.

towards Europe, I would suggest Moscow is putting the heavies on it?

:57:42.:57:46.

It sounds like it, yes. They were concerned about it in Moscow. It is

:57:47.:57:51.

a shame. They have put the frighteners on it to do with trade

:57:52.:57:58.

if they join. And energy as well. Quite a lot of countries who joined

:57:59.:58:03.

in the past weren't fit to join. The whole thing was fudged because the

:58:04.:58:08.

EU's motto ought to be wider and wider shall our bounds be set. That

:58:09.:58:14.

was British policy. It is called the union now, not the European Union in

:58:15.:58:21.

the treaty and I have been to meetings where they talk about

:58:22.:58:25.

long-term African countries. Every year, it is not ridiculous. We had

:58:26.:58:33.

Croatia. We could take the 13 colonies back. I feel that's their

:58:34.:58:36.

long-term objective. You have got Turkey lined up and Croatia came in

:58:37.:58:41.

and long-term... That's a long way away. It is. If you get your way, we

:58:42.:58:50.

will be out? I houp so. -- hope so. That's to my guests. That's it for

:58:51.:58:52.

now. Bye-bye.

:58:53.:58:59.

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