15/05/2014 Daily Politics


15/05/2014

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn are joined by pensions expert Ros Altmann and pensions minister Steve Webb to discuss the government's reforms. Plus the big political stories of the day.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Afternoon folks, welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:35.:00:37.

The Governor the Bank of England says he can't perform miracles to

:00:38.:00:40.

Is the only answer to build more homes?

:00:41.:00:45.

There's been no rush on Lamborghinis so far but will the Government's

:00:46.:00:49.

radical reforms to pensions still be a crowd pleaser

:00:50.:00:51.

David Cameron ventures north of the border to make the case

:00:52.:00:57.

We'll speak to the SNP's deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon.

:00:58.:01:03.

And Michael Gove and David Laws kiss and make up after their

:01:04.:01:06.

We'll bring you the top political reconciliations.

:01:07.:01:22.

Did they case, all you being metaphorical? I don't think it

:01:23.:01:26.

wasn't literal. All that in the next hour and with

:01:27.:01:30.

us for the duration, our go-to pensions expert,

:01:31.:01:34.

Ros Altmann. First this morning, raising interest

:01:35.:01:36.

rates is the last line of defence in controlling the housing market -

:01:37.:01:39.

that's according to the governor Mark Carney used

:01:40.:01:42.

his quarterly inflation report yesterday to say the bank couldn't

:01:43.:01:45.

perform miracles, with house prices growing at their fastest rate

:01:46.:01:50.

since the crash of 2008. The cost of housing looks set to be

:01:51.:01:54.

one of the big issues As we all know the housing market is

:01:55.:01:57.

all about supply and demand, and strong recent demand and limited

:01:58.:02:05.

supply has pushed prices up by 11% over the last year, the biggest

:02:06.:02:12.

annual jump since June 2007. It lead to the OECD warning that

:02:13.:02:17.

Britain needs to take action of soaring prices, through monetary

:02:18.:02:21.

policy tightening and scaling back Mark Carney said yesterday he was

:02:22.:02:25.

likely to resist calls to put interest rates up this year

:02:26.:02:37.

and told journalists rates would stay at historically low levels

:02:38.:02:40.

for some time. But Mr Carney said the Bank of

:02:41.:02:42.

England cannot perform miracles to deflate the housing bubble, pointing

:02:43.:02:45.

out that Financial Policy Committee can't build a single one of the more

:02:46.:02:48.

than 100,000 additional new homes Governments can build houses though,

:02:49.:02:53.

and Labour have already nailed their colours to the mast ahead of

:02:54.:03:00.

the next election by saying they'll be building 200,000 homes a year

:03:01.:03:05.

by the end of the next parliament. But, as all governments find, saying

:03:06.:03:11.

it is one thing, actually putting You found it that she sounded like

:03:12.:03:14.

Bob the builder! With me now is

:03:15.:03:31.

the housing minister Kris Hopkins, and hedge fund manager and author

:03:32.:03:34.

of Planet Ponzi, Mitch Feierstein. Also joining us from our Birmingham

:03:35.:03:37.

studio is the shadow housing Ali experiencing a housing bubble,

:03:38.:03:47.

or is it a London housing bubble and the rest of the country is quite

:03:48.:03:51.

normal? What we need to do is have an economic debate about the housing

:03:52.:03:58.

prices going up. I think it all relates to inflation, the inflation

:03:59.:04:02.

numbers. If you go back a little bit, to look at oil, or example, for

:04:03.:04:09.

a 13 year period oil prices stayed flat or down, slightly. If you look

:04:10.:04:16.

to 99, until 2014, they went up by a lot. If you look at the way

:04:17.:04:19.

statistics are not related, you can make them say anything. Housing,

:04:20.:04:26.

1999-2014, it has gone up over 900%. In every market, there is a

:04:27.:04:29.

correlation between house prices and income. If you look at the inflation

:04:30.:04:35.

adjustment, with real income, income has gone down while house prices

:04:36.:04:40.

have gone up precipitously. It seems coincidental that Mark Carney has

:04:41.:04:43.

been brought in as the head of the Bangkok England, and they are

:04:44.:04:48.

pushing forward this help to buy scheme, which is more of a Ponzi

:04:49.:04:57.

scheme. You've not answered my question, is the bubble a London

:04:58.:05:02.

phenomenon, and in the rest of the country, it is not out of kilter?

:05:03.:05:08.

There are five datasets you can look at. We don't have time for five. In

:05:09.:05:14.

the north-east and Yorkshire there are no housing bubbles? There are

:05:15.:05:19.

pockets in every bubble where you will not have prices exploding at

:05:20.:05:22.

the same rate that they are exploding in central London. Central

:05:23.:05:29.

London is a law unto itself, an international market. Property debt

:05:30.:05:34.

has become a mixture of money-laundering and a new global

:05:35.:05:37.

international currency. That has nothing to do with the people of

:05:38.:05:42.

Manchester, Birmingham Glasgow? I would agree with you 100%. But

:05:43.:05:47.

optimism bias is also part of it. You have extremely wealthy people

:05:48.:05:52.

buying to let. Buy to let is part of this, perpetuating eight bubble that

:05:53.:05:57.

will take down the banking system and cause financial havoc. When? I'm

:05:58.:06:02.

surprised it's been going for so long. You can never tell how big it

:06:03.:06:08.

is going to get. Either a market is undervalued, fairly valued,

:06:09.:06:11.

overvalued or ridiculous. We reached ridiculous about one year ago.

:06:12.:06:16.

Prices in the West Midlands, a key part of the country, they are lower

:06:17.:06:21.

now than they were in 2008? I looked at a chart and took all the figures

:06:22.:06:27.

from Nationwide and downloaded them. If you use an average of all prices

:06:28.:06:32.

in England, excluding London, you can see we are almost back at a

:06:33.:06:37.

cyclical peak. The graph shows a parabolic move. If you go back to

:06:38.:06:41.

the beginning of where the datasets are formed, whenever you have a

:06:42.:06:46.

parabolic move, it looks like this. You always have reversion back to

:06:47.:06:49.

the norm, where the statistical average will be. I can't tell you

:06:50.:06:54.

how big the bubble will get, but it will correct, and escape velocity

:06:55.:06:58.

for Mark Carney means that he will be with his $6 million he is being

:06:59.:07:05.

paid in Canada, watching that house bubble

:07:06.:07:05.

paid in Canada, watching that house burst as well. It would not be a

:07:06.:07:10.

bubble if you build more homes? I think that is the solution. In

:07:11.:07:15.

London, you are right, there is an issue that is specific to London. It

:07:16.:07:21.

is 9.1%, in the rest of the country it is 5.8%. In the rest of the

:07:22.:07:27.

country we need to make more houses. We have the figures this morning and

:07:28.:07:31.

we have seen a 31% increase on housing. Let me take you up on that.

:07:32.:07:38.

Housing starts at about 133,000, up on the previous year. The crash

:07:39.:07:42.

was... Let me get this right, it was six years ago. And you are still

:07:43.:07:46.

nowhere near the level of house building before the crash. Why is it

:07:47.:07:51.

taking you so long? There are two things, one final thing I would say

:07:52.:07:56.

on house prices, we are nowhere near peak at the moment. We are not

:07:57.:08:03.

expected to go past that peak price until 2018. It is still below peak

:08:04.:08:09.

across the country. It is about taking an industry, food and 50,000

:08:10.:08:17.

people were lost, the banking system ground to a halt, if you're going to

:08:18.:08:24.

kick-start that community to find ways like a help to buy scheme, like

:08:25.:08:28.

the ?300 million investment in council houses. It's taking a long

:08:29.:08:35.

while? It does. The biggest number of council houses built since 1991,

:08:36.:08:40.

1000 council houses. That is really important. 1000? I remember when

:08:41.:08:48.

Harold Macmillan Ilton 300,001 year. That is only 300 times more? That is

:08:49.:08:58.

a very low starting base. It will be the biggest number of affordable

:08:59.:09:05.

houses built for 20 years. House numbers, construction is at a

:09:06.:09:11.

massive high. Let me bring in Mitch Feierstein. If you look at

:09:12.:09:17.

affordable housing, I can give you an example. In Wandsworth,

:09:18.:09:20.

affordable housing was built and none of it was sold to key workers.

:09:21.:09:24.

It turned into a big scandal that disappeared out of the papers. If

:09:25.:09:31.

you look at job creation, in 2013, it was one in four or one in five in

:09:32.:09:38.

the property sector. 89% of first-time buyers are in those

:09:39.:09:42.

houses. A lot of them are being subsidised by the bank of mum and

:09:43.:09:46.

dad. If you were the Government, what would you do? Stop stealing

:09:47.:09:52.

from savers with zero interest rate policies, that helps nobody. You are

:09:53.:09:57.

the Government, you don't have control over the interest rates. You

:09:58.:10:01.

hire the people in the Bank of England so you have sway over that.

:10:02.:10:06.

You would sack Mark Carney? I don't think I would sack him. You can't

:10:07.:10:12.

tell him what to do. If you can't control interest rates, I think the

:10:13.:10:17.

government has to rain in the banks. They have zero regulation on the

:10:18.:10:21.

banks. How many bankers went to jail for the credit crisis? Zero. Royal

:10:22.:10:27.

Bank of Scotland, in capitalism... What would you do with the banks? I

:10:28.:10:31.

would regulate them seriously. What does that mean? Zero bankers went to

:10:32.:10:37.

jail. But there is a difference between sending people to jail and

:10:38.:10:39.

regulating them, or sending people to jail is the law of the land. I'm

:10:40.:10:45.

still trying to find one thing that you would do that is practical. The

:10:46.:10:49.

leveraged and debt structures that are dangerous to the financial

:10:50.:10:51.

health of the system should be trimmed down. You should not have

:10:52.:10:57.

500 times leveraged, with sympathetic, derivative products. A

:10:58.:11:01.

bank like JPMorgan allowed to have 73 trillion on balance Street... I'm

:11:02.:11:07.

not sure JPMorgan is that big in the British housing market. You were

:11:08.:11:10.

promising to build 200,000 homes, but not until 2020, why should we

:11:11.:11:16.

trust you, seeing as you never managed to get close to 20,000 homes

:11:17.:11:20.

in power? Before the global financial crash, 170,000 homes were

:11:21.:11:31.

built. We are on the right trajectory. Under this government,

:11:32.:11:35.

frankly, they have been incredibly complacent. Mark Carney, the Bank of

:11:36.:11:39.

England governor yesterday, he said that housing is the biggest threat

:11:40.:11:44.

to economic stability. Kris Hopkins might put figures about house

:11:45.:11:51.

prices, but there are pockets of the country, London and the south-east

:11:52.:11:53.

in particular, pockets where this is a real concern. What would you do?

:11:54.:12:00.

The Government needs to recognise that there are some pretty

:12:01.:12:04.

fundamental problems with the land market in terms of availability. But

:12:05.:12:07.

also in terms of the lack of competition from small house

:12:08.:12:13.

builders in an industry that is now dominated by big house-builders. We

:12:14.:12:16.

think the Government should get on and help small house-builders so

:12:17.:12:21.

that we can have more competition in the industry. Would you scrap help

:12:22.:12:25.

to buy in London? We would reduce the threshold from ?6,000 to

:12:26.:12:36.

400,000. -- from ?600,000, down to ?400,000. Would you scrap it in

:12:37.:12:42.

London? We think we should look closely at what is happening. We

:12:43.:12:45.

would assume you were doing that with everything, otherwise you would

:12:46.:12:49.

not be running the government. We're not saying we should scrap it, but

:12:50.:12:51.

we are saying not saying we should scrap it, but

:12:52.:12:59.

we are we should bring it down. And I just come back to the first point

:13:00.:13:06.

that I made? Let's take you to 2008, everything went pear shaped after

:13:07.:13:09.

that. In ten years of constant growth, plenty of money around,

:13:10.:13:16.

public spending soaring until the year 2008, you never once got near

:13:17.:13:19.

2000 homes. Why would we trust you at a time when there would be very

:13:20.:13:22.

little money around and growth could be difficult, that he would get

:13:23.:13:30.

anywhere near 200,000? We understand there are fundamental problems with

:13:31.:13:33.

the housing industry. It is the case for three decades now that there has

:13:34.:13:36.

been a growing gap between supply and demand. We think the Government

:13:37.:13:41.

needs to get a grip on this. The Government needs to take

:13:42.:13:45.

leadership. We would not, for example, in 2010, have cut the

:13:46.:13:51.

Affordable Homes Budget, by a massive 60%. Kris Hopkins talks

:13:52.:13:56.

about affordability. The Government is encouraging housing associations

:13:57.:14:00.

and others to charge 80% of market rent. In Wandsworth and London that

:14:01.:14:04.

is not affordable for key workers. Kris Hopkins? This Government has

:14:05.:14:11.

built more social houses than they did in 13 years. To lecture us about

:14:12.:14:15.

what we are doing, they were not building that houses. 445,000

:14:16.:14:22.

houses, 170,000 by next year. The next programme of 100 and 5000 will

:14:23.:14:30.

be out by 2014. We are committed to make sure that people get on the

:14:31.:14:36.

housing ladder. Help to buy, 89% of them are first-time buyers. The

:14:37.:14:38.

average price of those houses, on the guarantee scheme, it is

:14:39.:14:44.

?145,000. On the equity scheme, it is 185,000. When the average house

:14:45.:14:50.

price is ?250,000, this is not boosting a bubble. It is

:14:51.:14:54.

facilitating first-time buyers to get on the market. Ros Altmann has

:14:55.:14:58.

listened to this, what do you make of it? We are in a bubble, as far as

:14:59.:15:04.

I can see. It is stimulated by policies that have boosted demand

:15:05.:15:07.

without boosting supply. We need to look up the whole housing policy

:15:08.:15:11.

across the piece. It is not just about building affordable homes,

:15:12.:15:16.

small flats. We also need to build houses that older people will want

:15:17.:15:20.

to downsize to, to free up the whole market. Have a real problem. House

:15:21.:15:25.

price inflation may be good for people that own homes. What about

:15:26.:15:30.

the younger generation, who are struggling to afford rent? Why is

:15:31.:15:36.

this a problem outside London? If you look at some of the metropolitan

:15:37.:15:40.

cities, they are doing very well. The economy is recovering strongly.

:15:41.:15:44.

House prices are also going up. But they are not back to their peak? The

:15:45.:15:49.

peak was based on ludicrous borrowing. 120% mortgages and that

:15:50.:15:56.

sort of thing. We haven't done that, negative equity is still being paid

:15:57.:16:02.

down. Why is there a bubble? In this particular housing cycle there has

:16:03.:16:09.

been no increase in negative equity. But if you are at warehouse prices

:16:10.:16:11.

are really arising. In London, that's the jobs are. So

:16:12.:16:24.

who has got the better policy, Labour or Conservative 's? I'm not

:16:25.:16:31.

sure what Labour would actually do. If they were going to be building

:16:32.:16:35.

houses across the spectrum, I think that would help. The government's

:16:36.:16:39.

policy now is kicking in, it would have been nice if this had happened

:16:40.:16:45.

earlier. Which was my original point you have been slow at this. We know

:16:46.:16:51.

when people build homes, people who buy them have to go and get fridges

:16:52.:16:57.

and things. You make a strong argument. The thing about it is,

:16:58.:17:01.

there isn't a press of the button on it. You have to make sure the bank

:17:02.:17:06.

is going to loan, make sure you have the infrastructure. One of the

:17:07.:17:09.

issues we have now is we talk about the top ten builders, they don't

:17:10.:17:12.

have the capacity to go further than they are building at the moment.

:17:13.:17:16.

They will have to recruit, train to get people in place. Their whole

:17:17.:17:21.

resources and infrastructure, it takes time to put that in place but

:17:22.:17:25.

it is there. I will give you the last word. I think the government

:17:26.:17:31.

isn't doing enough and it didn't do enough at the beginning when they

:17:32.:17:34.

were in government. I come back to what they did in 2010, which was to

:17:35.:17:39.

cut the affordable homes budget by 60%. A lot of the affordable homes

:17:40.:17:43.

that have been built in their first two years in government were homes

:17:44.:17:48.

that we stimulated in order to come through what was a difficult time

:17:49.:17:51.

for house-building. The truth is, we are not building half the number of

:17:52.:17:55.

homes, we need to keep up with demand and we need radical

:17:56.:17:58.

leadership that we are frankly not seeing. If we're not building half

:17:59.:18:05.

the number of homes, then you are promising up to 200,000 homes by

:18:06.:18:10.

2020, the figure you just gave us, you should be building 286,000? I

:18:11.:18:18.

was talking about completions. I was talking about that because

:18:19.:18:23.

completions is what you need in terms of output. The government's

:18:24.:18:28.

own figures suggest there is a housing need of 230,000. We would

:18:29.:18:32.

love to go beyond 200,000 but we know we're going to be starting from

:18:33.:18:37.

a very low base. We certainly need central government to get a grip on

:18:38.:18:41.

the issues that are affecting this industry and we know we're not

:18:42.:18:44.

building anywhere near enough homes. I thank you all for

:18:45.:18:55.

estimating discussion. The coalition government has embarked on the most

:18:56.:18:58.

radical reform of pensions in a generation, with the aim of giving

:18:59.:19:02.

people more freedom and responsible of the over their own plans for

:19:03.:19:05.

retirement and to shake up the pensions industry with more com

:19:06.:19:12.

petition. But is it a risky gamble? How old are you? The thought of a

:19:13.:19:18.

decent pension has always made us smile and the threat of its loss or

:19:19.:19:22.

degradation made us worried and angry. The concept is hundreds of

:19:23.:19:26.

years old and even the principles of pensions today were there in 1946.

:19:27.:19:34.

11p from your own pocket... The political parties have long known

:19:35.:19:38.

pensions needed reforming, but in his last autumn statement and

:19:39.:19:43.

subsequent budget, George Osborne bowled up an unexpected change. For

:19:44.:19:46.

defined contributions pensions, once you have rolled up to 55, a way you

:19:47.:19:50.

could go with your whole pension pot, and if you wished, by a

:19:51.:19:56.

Lamborghini. Let's not that old chestnut out of the game right now.

:19:57.:20:03.

The average pension pot in the UK is around ?25,000. I haven't bought a

:20:04.:20:07.

Lamborghini recently but I expect around ?25,000. I haven't bought a

:20:08.:20:14.

?25,000. People are more sensible than that. At the other end of the

:20:15.:20:21.

changes, the annuity monopoly was being removed. Nobody will now be

:20:22.:20:25.

forced into a system that pays a defined sum every month, though some

:20:26.:20:29.

may still want that and can. But it's clear the changes were as much

:20:30.:20:32.

about reforming the pensions market place as it was about us, who will

:20:33.:20:38.

need the products. People would reach retirement and they would be

:20:39.:20:41.

given an income amount and they would go for that, they wouldn't

:20:42.:20:44.

look around. What has happened over the last few months with the budget

:20:45.:20:49.

and also the reports from the ONS is that market has become more

:20:50.:20:56.

efficient. The jury is still out to see what the industry comes up with

:20:57.:20:59.

to make these products attractive to people, easily understood and

:21:00.:21:04.

transparent when it comes to what the costs and charges might be and

:21:05.:21:08.

what they might have to pay, and to get good quality professional

:21:09.:21:12.

advice. That's not the government is offering, it's just guidance. They

:21:13.:21:17.

have changed the word from advice to guidance. Pension changes caused

:21:18.:21:25.

trouble in the 50s. Changes to pensions in the public sector have

:21:26.:21:29.

sparked strikes and marches today. Already there have been heated

:21:30.:21:33.

clashes between the Socialists and the Tories, both of whom accuse the

:21:34.:21:47.

other of neglecting the old folk... 50 years on, it's clear people still

:21:48.:21:49.

care about pensions, but the state's involvement is less and

:21:50.:21:51.

less. The government want people to have pensions. Might they go the

:21:52.:21:55.

extra step and make it compulsory for all of us to make our own

:21:56.:22:00.

pension arrangements? I could see we get to a point where it is

:22:01.:22:05.

compulsory saving but we had the choice at the other end with

:22:06.:22:09.

education, and that is a sensible framework, really. Pensions are

:22:10.:22:16.

different from savings, and my concern is that with the changes and

:22:17.:22:19.

the ability to access our part at the age of 55, this is seen as a

:22:20.:22:24.

savings product, not a pensions product. What pensions do that

:22:25.:22:27.

savings don't is guarantee an income for the rest of 1's life. One

:22:28.:22:34.

wonders if that is what he got. Increasingly, it is a hope that

:22:35.:22:39.

previously disinterested young are worrying about today for themselves.

:22:40.:22:54.

We have two pensions experts here. We talked about Lamborghinis, that

:22:55.:23:00.

memorable quote yesterday, do you think Lamborghini sales will see a

:23:01.:23:03.

massive increase, metaphorically if not literally? Somehow I doubt it.

:23:04.:23:11.

The tax system will act as a natural break on people taking money out of

:23:12.:23:15.

their pension funds, because if you want to take significant sums out

:23:16.:23:20.

and you go into the price range of a Lamborghini, you would lease 45% of

:23:21.:23:25.

your money in tax. Most people wouldn't sign up to losing that much

:23:26.:23:29.

of their savings. If you take small amounts out over time, then you

:23:30.:23:34.

either pay no tax, or basic rate, 20% tax. That would be more

:23:35.:23:41.

attractive. If you have got a small pension pot, you might take it all

:23:42.:23:43.

at once, but does that really matter? You would only get a few

:23:44.:23:51.

pounds a week extra income. Why would you want to worry about that?

:23:52.:23:54.

You might have more important things you want to do. What is happening

:23:55.:24:00.

now, before April 2015, are people being forced to buy annuities

:24:01.:24:04.

despite the fact they heard the measures being announced? Generally

:24:05.:24:09.

not. In the past, people didn't literally have to buy an annuity,

:24:10.:24:12.

they just didn't have much alternative. It was either by that

:24:13.:24:17.

all go into something complicated that wasn't value for money. So what

:24:18.:24:23.

is happening is people are waiting till 2015, then we will see a big

:24:24.:24:27.

expansion of people taking cash, if that is what they want. For me,

:24:28.:24:31.

letting people choose what they do with their own money, give them

:24:32.:24:34.

guidance and help, but let them choose, is the right support. But

:24:35.:24:40.

there is a real pub, pension providers are not letting people

:24:41.:24:45.

take their tax-free cash -- a real problem. Some people are being

:24:46.:24:50.

forced to buy an annuity or some other product that doesn't work well

:24:51.:24:55.

for them. You sit generally, I have a quote here that says that the

:24:56.:25:00.

reality is pension companies are not accommodating requests when people

:25:01.:25:04.

say they want to draw down however much they want. You have signed a

:25:05.:25:10.

contract with a pension provider, the rules of the scheme are tougher

:25:11.:25:12.

than the rules of the land. the rules of the scheme are tougher

:25:13.:25:16.

Until 2015, when we can change all these things, we are spending the

:25:17.:25:23.

year making sure that next year, when these things come in, people

:25:24.:25:27.

have the freedom, until then, their money is still as tied up. So they

:25:28.:25:34.

are stuffed? No, no... They are delayed. They can't take the cash as

:25:35.:25:41.

they want to now but by next April, people are saying to us, this is

:25:42.:25:45.

break next speed, how can you do it by then? But they can't take any

:25:46.:25:54.

cash, that's the problem. That is the law of the land. The pension

:25:55.:25:57.

companies are saying, we're not going to let you, our systems can't

:25:58.:26:03.

cope, there isn't a single pensions company that is enabling you to do

:26:04.:26:07.

this. There is one that will let you have it within six months but then

:26:08.:26:10.

you still have two either buy an annuity within six months or go into

:26:11.:26:16.

another type of product. On the basis of that, was one of the

:26:17.:26:19.

problems that you didn't actually consult properly or within enough

:26:20.:26:24.

time, before you made your announcement, which was fairly

:26:25.:26:29.

radical? We heard the lady say that she was in a board meeting

:26:30.:26:32.

discussing pensions strategy during the budget and the announcement

:26:33.:26:37.

changed everything and was on anticipated by the industry, which

:26:38.:26:41.

is perhaps led to this situation? They were trapped anyway. If the

:26:42.:26:47.

accusation is this was big, bold and radical, I plead guilty. We have had

:26:48.:26:52.

decades of people being locked up, within 12 months, they will be free.

:26:53.:26:58.

But you didn't know yourself beforehand? Bear in mind that we

:26:59.:27:04.

have been talking about the failures of the market, people knew things

:27:05.:27:06.

were changing, we went further than we expected, and on the day of the

:27:07.:27:12.

budget, she said, this is fantastic reform. It takes 12 months to get it

:27:13.:27:18.

all in, that is how long it takes. The pensions industry needs to play

:27:19.:27:22.

its part. We would like to see them putting its customers at heart, and

:27:23.:27:29.

one of the reasons the reforms were needed is that the pensions and

:27:30.:27:33.

history itself seemed to worry about its own interests rather than those

:27:34.:27:39.

of the customer, and we are still seeing that. But about the

:27:40.:27:44.

face-to-face guidance, because that will be crucial? The quality of

:27:45.:27:49.

advice people need? It is important. We automatically

:27:50.:27:52.

enrolling people into pensions schemes. We need to make sure they

:27:53.:27:56.

understand what to do with their money, and in the past, there has

:27:57.:28:01.

been nothing to help them. What would you like the government to be

:28:02.:28:05.

providing? This needs to be got right. Hopefully we will get it

:28:06.:28:12.

right. Impartial, free, face-to-face guidance, I would prefer advice, but

:28:13.:28:17.

some minimum standards where people know that somebody is going to help

:28:18.:28:23.

them make these sessions. What are you going to provide? Face-to-face

:28:24.:28:28.

guidance could cost up to ?340 million a year, who will pay for

:28:29.:28:32.

that? First of all, it won't cost anything like that. You have the

:28:33.:28:36.

right to a race to face conversation, many people may choose

:28:37.:28:40.

phone -based, web based, they would all want it on the 6th of April, the

:28:41.:28:47.

pension schemes will have illegals duty to make sure their members get

:28:48.:28:51.

this guidance and pay for it. -- a legal duty. What we are saying is

:28:52.:28:58.

that at the moment people have got nothing, they are making life

:28:59.:29:01.

changing decisions, getting them wrong and there is no one there to

:29:02.:29:05.

help them. This will equip a whole generation of people to be better

:29:06.:29:11.

informed. The guidance will help you ask the right questions, you will

:29:12.:29:14.

need advice to get the right answers. What about making tension

:29:15.:29:21.

saving compulsory? The case for that is weaker than it was because we

:29:22.:29:24.

have been doing this opt out business, nine out of ten workers

:29:25.:29:29.

have stayed in, when nine at people are freely choosing to stay in

:29:30.:29:32.

something and one in ten are they don't want it, making it compulsory

:29:33.:29:39.

doesn't seem a good thing. So you are moving further away from calls

:29:40.:29:42.

to say it should be compulsory. What do you say? That would be a

:29:43.:29:47.

completely different landscape, we would have to get rid of tax relief,

:29:48.:29:51.

which might be attractive to the Treasury... I actually want more of

:29:52.:29:57.

the tax relief going to lower savers and Leicester people like me, I want

:29:58.:30:01.

to rebalance... You want to cut it for the higher tax payers? And raise

:30:02.:30:07.

it for the lower taxpayers. Some people probably shouldn't save for a

:30:08.:30:13.

pension. If you are saving for a deposit for a house, maybe you

:30:14.:30:19.

should be saving towards that, it may not overall be the optimal

:30:20.:30:24.

outcome. A question we have had in a tweet, will our pension pots be seen

:30:25.:30:28.

as an asset that we need to cash in if we need care later in life? The

:30:29.:30:33.

intention is to maintain the status quo. Currently we don't say you have

:30:34.:30:40.

to spend all your money on care, the idea is to maintain that intention.

:30:41.:30:44.

There are a lot of ways that can be done but the intention is not to

:30:45.:30:47.

bring lots of new people into means testing. This could work out better

:30:48.:30:53.

for care because at the moment, if you have spent all your money on an

:30:54.:30:58.

annuity, and you get ill in your 80s and you haven't had all the money

:30:59.:31:03.

back, there will be some there to give you something to support

:31:04.:31:08.

yourself with social care. We need incentives to help people use that

:31:09.:31:13.

money, but the reform of social care won't start giving you any public

:31:14.:31:21.

money, even if you qualify... You need to spend money on care if your

:31:22.:31:25.

needs are less than substantial. We have been speaking to some of the

:31:26.:31:44.

minor parties contesting the elections. One of the parties

:31:45.:32:00.

involved is Plaid Cymru. Britain First.

:32:01.:32:14.

Britain's latest addition to nationalist politics like, is a

:32:15.:32:20.

dramatic video. It's all captions straight out of a film trailer. This

:32:21.:32:23.

is their leader, Paul Golding, driving around Tower Hamlets in a

:32:24.:32:29.

reinforced Land Rover, looking very tough. We have these Christian

:32:30.:32:36.

patrol leaflets. Paul and his Christian patrol send their time

:32:37.:32:39.

running out informative leaflets, having charming chats with Muslims.

:32:40.:32:46.

If you want to live here, by by our laws. And drink lager in front of a

:32:47.:32:50.

mosque. That's not their only attempt to get a bit of attention.

:32:51.:32:53.

This weekend they launched a series of self-styled mosque innovations in

:32:54.:32:59.

Glasgow and Bradford. It mostly seemed to consist of wandering

:33:00.:33:01.

around uninvited, getting lost and doing some hectoring. Jesus Christ,

:33:02.:33:09.

our Lord, he wants to save you from hell. The visits are being

:33:10.:33:12.

investigated by the police and it will be the first time Paul Golding

:33:13.:33:17.

has come to their attention. He's been arrested more than once,

:33:18.:33:26.

accused of harassing religious extremists. Britain first also using

:33:27.:33:32.

the slogan remember Lee Rigby on voting slips, which led to the

:33:33.:33:36.

electoral commission having to apologise to the family of the

:33:37.:33:39.

murdered soldier. We are joined by the leader of

:33:40.:33:45.

Britain First, Paul Golding. You saw the EU style yourself as a patriotic

:33:46.:33:50.

party and a street defence organisation. You are basically a

:33:51.:33:55.

vigilante group? We are not, we are a street defence Association. We

:33:56.:34:00.

oppose radical extremists, Muslim extremist 's, highlighting things

:34:01.:34:05.

like female genital mutilation, the Muslim patrols in east London, the

:34:06.:34:12.

nonaction by the Muslim community to highlight Muslim grooming gangs. You

:34:13.:34:17.

look like vigilantes in that film? There will not be any charges, we

:34:18.:34:24.

have not broken any laws. What we saw was low-level bullying and

:34:25.:34:26.

intimidation? Not at all. We are there because those people have got

:34:27.:34:31.

influence over the Muslim communities. They are not doing

:34:32.:34:35.

anything regarding extremism in Islam, nothing regarding female

:34:36.:34:40.

genital mutilation, Muslim grooming gangs, hate preachers, anything at

:34:41.:34:44.

all like that. We are there to pressure them into action. Why do

:34:45.:34:49.

you have these military style uniforms, the reinforced Land Rover?

:34:50.:34:55.

It is playing soldiers? Just green activist jackets. Because we want to

:34:56.:34:59.

stand apart from groups like the EDL, we want to stand apart from

:35:00.:35:04.

them, so we were green activists jackets. Why did you leave that the

:35:05.:35:08.

MP, was it not far right enough? That's not the reason, corruption,

:35:09.:35:12.

stagnation, electoral nonperformance, all sorts of

:35:13.:35:17.

shenanigans going on around me reckon. And the fact he had gone off

:35:18.:35:21.

to enjoy the gravy train lifestyle in Europe. Me and hundreds of others

:35:22.:35:27.

decided to resign from that organisation. And set up this

:35:28.:35:32.

instead? Why did you turn up at the Mayor of Bradford's house with ten

:35:33.:35:36.

men? That day, we was going to visit the imams in Bradford, handing out

:35:37.:35:44.

Bibles and Muslim grooming leaflets, which is a free country, we can do

:35:45.:35:48.

what we want. I asked him for a face-to-face meeting, he refused, so

:35:49.:35:53.

we went to his home address. With ten men? Another form of

:35:54.:35:57.

intimidation? It's not at all. We asked him for a meeting, we turned

:35:58.:36:01.

up at his house, tried to give him some of our Muslim grooming leaflets

:36:02.:36:05.

and ask him why he was not doing anything about the scourge of Muslim

:36:06.:36:11.

grooming in the North of England. You describe Britain First as

:36:12.:36:21.

wanting to restore justice to politics, but you are being

:36:22.:36:27.

I was arrested for chasing a hate preacher down the street. For

:36:28.:36:35.

chasing Anjem Choudary, he radicalised one of the killers of

:36:36.:36:41.

Lee Rigby. For legal reasons, I can't go into the details of why you

:36:42.:36:47.

have been arrested. You brought up my arrest. You have been arrested a

:36:48.:36:52.

number of times, yet your proposal, you stand for principal and decency

:36:53.:36:55.

in politics, that is all I am asking. The second time was for

:36:56.:37:00.

exposing an Al-Qaeda training camp operator on terrorist living

:37:01.:37:03.

anonymously in Essex. Those arrest, I am entirely proud of. Anjem

:37:04.:37:08.

Choudary, for example, he radicalised one of the killers of

:37:09.:37:11.

Lee Rigby. I don't care, if you stand up for your people in our

:37:12.:37:15.

country, you face politically correct pressure from the state. I

:37:16.:37:19.

am quoting from your website, you want to make Britain a beautiful

:37:20.:37:22.

country once again where you can leave your door unlocked. But we

:37:23.:37:26.

have seen a few leave your door unlocked, people like you walking to

:37:27.:37:30.

it? Of course, if you are an Islamic hate preacher, you will find us on

:37:31.:37:35.

your doorstep. But you walked in. You were not on the doorstep, you

:37:36.:37:42.

walked into the mosques. It was a public mosque. You showed no

:37:43.:37:45.

respect, filmed it, did not take your shoes off, which would have

:37:46.:37:48.

been a sign of respect for people of a different religion. With people

:37:49.:37:53.

like you around, why would you leave your door unlocked? You might want

:37:54.:37:57.

to double bolted! We are not invading temples, because the Sikh

:37:58.:38:07.

unity is showing respect. The Muslim community is not showing respect for

:38:08.:38:12.

native traditions and cultures. Is that gives you the right to invade

:38:13.:38:18.

their mosques? If the police don't take action, if politicians don't

:38:19.:38:22.

take action, we will. We love our country, we defend our people. That

:38:23.:38:26.

gives you the right to take the law into your own hands? What laws have

:38:27.:38:32.

we broken? You have just invaded a mosque. That's not against the law.

:38:33.:38:37.

You said if the laws didn't do it, you would do it yourself? You would

:38:38.:38:41.

take the law into your own hands? And then there is Lee Rigby, who you

:38:42.:38:45.

tried to hijack the murder of Lee Rigby, we saw that on the ballot

:38:46.:38:49.

paper. Can I just quoted to you what Lee Rigby's mother has said?

:38:50.:38:53.

Referring to your group, their views are not what he believed in, there

:38:54.:38:56.

is no support from the family. Yet again, can any more heartbreak be

:38:57.:39:01.

thrown at me and my family? What do you say I sympathise, she is a

:39:02.:39:06.

grieving mother. Everybody in the country was appalled. It was the

:39:07.:39:09.

most high-profile act of Islamic terrorism perpetrated.

:39:10.:39:13.

But you shouldn't have put the name on the ballot paper, should you? You

:39:14.:39:20.

asked me a question, allow me to finish. There is a fine line between

:39:21.:39:26.

hijacking and highlighting. We are here to highlight what happened to

:39:27.:39:32.

Lee Rigby. Our entire campaign in Britain First is to try and

:39:33.:39:36.

suffocate Islamic extremism. His mother doesn't want you to, what is

:39:37.:39:40.

your answer? We are the ones taking the fight to hate preachers and

:39:41.:39:45.

Islamic preachers. I know what you're doing, I asked you what you

:39:46.:39:48.

would say to the mother of Lee Rigby, who does not want you to do

:39:49.:39:52.

this. We apologise to the mother of Lee Rigby, but it was a major act of

:39:53.:39:59.

terrorism. It was a big public event. He was a serving soldier. A

:40:00.:40:04.

public serving soldier. If you have so much respect for the this

:40:05.:40:08.

country, I think we can show a picture, why did you turn up at the

:40:09.:40:12.

Cenotaph on Remembrance Sunday with a pair of underpants on your head?

:40:13.:40:18.

Yes, this was when I was about 16 years old. I was 16 years old, my

:40:19.:40:27.

family fought in the Second World War. My own family fought the Nazis.

:40:28.:40:32.

Why did you do that? I didn't do it, somebody else did it. That is not

:40:33.:40:37.

you? Somebody else put them on my head and I put them off very

:40:38.:40:46.

quickly. That actually happened, somebody put it on my head,

:40:47.:40:49.

conveniently a journalist was waiting with a camera. I think that

:40:50.:40:55.

is suspicious. I would never, ever, disrespect the memory of my own

:40:56.:40:59.

great-grandfather or any of the other war heroes. I understand

:41:00.:41:03.

that, we all had relatives that fought in the Second World War. Can

:41:04.:41:06.

we show the picture again? If somebody put this on your head, you

:41:07.:41:09.

did not take it off, you are walking down the street. If you have

:41:10.:41:13.

something on your head you don't want, you would take it off. You are

:41:14.:41:16.

walking in a rather determined fashion. No, those were on my head

:41:17.:41:21.

for about five seconds. Conveniently, there was a camera

:41:22.:41:24.

present. That is one I was 16 years old. This is a bit silly, childish.

:41:25.:41:33.

It is slightly strange? Next time you get Liberal Democrats, Tories or

:41:34.:41:36.

labour, I'm sure you will be digging up stuff. I assure you we have had

:41:37.:41:43.

Tories in that seal of films -- Nazi uniforms at Swiss parties.

:41:44.:41:47.

David Cameron will invoke the memory of former Labour leader John Smith

:41:48.:41:50.

on a visit to Scotland today to make the case for the Union.

:41:51.:41:54.

Yesterday the Chancellor reiterated his opposition to monetary union

:41:55.:41:57.

He was speaking to the Treasury select committee.

:41:58.:42:01.

Let's have a listen to what he had to say.

:42:02.:42:07.

I am absolutely clear there will not be a currency union if Scotland

:42:08.:42:13.

votes to become independent. No ifs or buts. That is not just my

:42:14.:42:16.

position, it is the position of the Labour Party and the Liberal

:42:17.:42:20.

Democrats. Any combination you can imagine of a British government, for

:42:21.:42:24.

the foreseeable future, has ruled this option out. Just on

:42:25.:42:33.

sterlingisation, I still think people might be confused as to why

:42:34.:42:40.

it is not feasible and what sterlingisation Woodlock like in an

:42:41.:42:46.

independent Scotland. -- would look like. It means that you don't have

:42:47.:42:53.

your own currency, you have another country's currency will stop you are

:42:54.:42:59.

not printing banknotes. That would be the case, even though Scotland,

:43:00.:43:03.

as we know, prints its own notes? They would not exist any more. Can I

:43:04.:43:11.

just eat clear, and sterlingisation, Scottish banks would not be able to

:43:12.:43:17.

print notes? They print their notes with the support and authority of

:43:18.:43:21.

the Bank of England and Parliament, which has passed legislation to

:43:22.:43:33.

support this. Let's go to Edinburgh, where the Deputy First Minister and

:43:34.:43:36.

Deputy leader of the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon, is waiting for us. When

:43:37.:43:42.

you launch the SNP European campaign, you expressed the fear

:43:43.:43:47.

that UKIP in Scotland might stop you getting a third seat in the European

:43:48.:43:52.

Parliament. Why are you so worried about them, since only a few years

:43:53.:43:56.

ago your leader dismissed them as an irrelevance? That is not quite what

:43:57.:44:01.

I said. I don't expect them to do well in Scotland of the European

:44:02.:44:04.

elections. What I was saying is that the only way for people in Scotland

:44:05.:44:09.

to ensure that Nigel Farage does not get a foothold in Scotland is to

:44:10.:44:13.

vote SNP. If the SNP wins the final seat that everybody thinks is up for

:44:14.:44:18.

grabs, a young Scottish Asian woman, I can't think of a better

:44:19.:44:22.

rebuke to the politics of Nigel Farage. You have said that, do you

:44:23.:44:26.

regard them as an irrelevance or could they stop you getting this

:44:27.:44:30.

third seat? I don't think UKIP offers anything in Scotland. We have

:44:31.:44:35.

had experiences in by-elections were UKIP have fielded candidates and

:44:36.:44:39.

have not saved their deposit, they have done very badly. I don't expect

:44:40.:44:43.

them to do well. I want to be absolutely sure we don't give Nigel

:44:44.:44:46.

Farage any foothold in Scotland, that is why an SNP is the best way

:44:47.:44:51.

to guarantee it. Alex Salmond said that Scotland was a country,

:44:52.:44:54.

speaking of David Cameron, he said Scotland was a country that never

:44:55.:45:00.

will elect people like him to govern us. What do you mean by people like

:45:01.:45:07.

him? What he was saying is that Scotland does not vote for Tory

:45:08.:45:10.

governments. I am 44 years old, almost. You might not think I like

:45:11.:45:15.

that, but I am. Never once in my life has Scotland voted Tory. What

:45:16.:45:20.

does he mean by people like him? Tories. That's it? Scotland doesn't

:45:21.:45:27.

vote Tory, we don't vote for Tory prime ministers like David Cameron.

:45:28.:45:30.

Yet we very often end up with Tory prime ministers. Independence would

:45:31.:45:35.

put a stop to that and make sure it is the parties that win elections

:45:36.:45:39.

that get to be in government. People like him just means Tories? I'm not

:45:40.:45:44.

sure what else you are referring. I'm trying to find out, it has a

:45:45.:45:49.

whiff of ethnic nastiness. For goodness sake, you know the SNP very

:45:50.:45:54.

well, you know our brand of nationalism. I am not personalising

:45:55.:45:57.

this to you. Everybody knows the SNP promotes civic nationalism. I just

:45:58.:46:03.

mentioned to one of our European candidates, a young Scots Asian

:46:04.:46:08.

woman that I hope to see elected to the European Parliament. The key

:46:09.:46:13.

point that we argue is that if Scotland becomes independent we no

:46:14.:46:16.

longer have to put up with a situation where we overwhelmingly

:46:17.:46:20.

reject the Tories in general elections but have to put up with

:46:21.:46:23.

Tory governments and Tory prime ministers imposing policies like the

:46:24.:46:30.

bedroom tax. Other than assertion, can you present evidence to show

:46:31.:46:34.

that the major Westminster parties are bluffing, as you claim, when it

:46:35.:46:37.

comes to monetary union after independence? I could cite the

:46:38.:46:43.

amendment estate in the Guardian who said, of course they would be a

:46:44.:46:48.

currency union. I think that is a fairly strong evidence. You know

:46:49.:46:55.

that unnamed minister was talking about a deal of fast lane for

:46:56.:46:57.

monetary union, you have ruled out... What evidence do you have?

:46:58.:47:05.

Our position on Trident is clear, but what that minister was saying is

:47:06.:47:09.

that this position of George Osborne, that there will be no

:47:10.:47:13.

negotiations over currency, is not true. Perhaps the stronger evidence

:47:14.:47:19.

is the fact that many reasons, a currency union between an

:47:20.:47:21.

independent Scotland and the rest of the UK would be as much in the

:47:22.:47:25.

interests of the rest of the UK as it would be in the rest of

:47:26.:47:28.

Scotland. It is that argument we will continue to push forward and

:47:29.:47:31.

the polls suggest that the majority of people in Scotland also think

:47:32.:47:35.

George Osborne is engaging in bluff and bluster. That is not evidence,

:47:36.:47:42.

would respect. And if you understand that negotiations for independence,

:47:43.:47:47.

if you vote yes on the 18th, would be underway when the British general

:47:48.:47:53.

election comes on in 2015. And having voted for independence, what

:47:54.:47:59.

would then be the English parties would come under a lot of pressure

:48:00.:48:02.

to put no money to put no monetary union into their manifestoes. You

:48:03.:48:04.

may find out they are not laughing at all. The point about the general

:48:05.:48:10.

election is a good one, but for other reasons. It would be an odd

:48:11.:48:14.

chancellor or aspiring Chancellor that turned round and said to

:48:15.:48:18.

businesses in England and said, we're going to impose transaction

:48:19.:48:23.

costs of ?500 million a year on you in order to allow you to trade with

:48:24.:48:27.

your second biggest export market, which is Scotland. It would be an

:48:28.:48:33.

odd chancellor or aspiring Chancellor to turn his back on

:48:34.:48:36.

Scottish exports with the increase in Detroit ever said that would be

:48:37.:48:40.

incurred. The arguments are basic common sense. You use this figure a

:48:41.:48:48.

lot, and it is adjusting you are so concerned that English

:48:49.:48:51.

entrepreneurs, but it will cost the government about ?20 billion to move

:48:52.:48:55.

fast lane from Scotland to somewhere else in the UK. So why is ?500

:48:56.:49:05.

million neither here nor there, in the trillion pound economy? It is

:49:06.:49:10.

peanuts! I would hope that at some point, the UK would have a

:49:11.:49:14.

government that sees sense and gets rid of Trident altogether. That

:49:15.:49:19.

would be entirely up to UK governments, but I believe the

:49:20.:49:23.

decision to spend ?100 billion replacing Trident is the wrong one

:49:24.:49:26.

and one of the benefits of independence is we no longer have to

:49:27.:49:28.

put up with Trident being based here. The people of Scotland have

:49:29.:49:36.

put up with that for years. If it turns out they are not bluffing and

:49:37.:49:41.

that all three parties right no monetary union into them and

:49:42.:49:45.

investors, so no matter the result, there is no monetary union, what is

:49:46.:49:50.

your fallback position? I don't believe that is the case, but with

:49:51.:49:54.

that this discussion before, the fiscal commission have set out the

:49:55.:49:57.

range of currency options that would be open to an independent Scotland,

:49:58.:50:03.

but the recommended currency union, that is the common sense position

:50:04.:50:07.

that we will continue to put forward. But if there is nothing to

:50:08.:50:13.

stop using the pound even without monetary union, but if you did, you

:50:14.:50:18.

would have no right... That is not my position. But it could be your

:50:19.:50:23.

fallback position, you would have no right to print money, no right to

:50:24.:50:29.

issue Scottish bonds and sterling, you wouldn't be independent? I am

:50:30.:50:35.

not even go to get into the discussion... But you need need a

:50:36.:50:40.

strategy in case you don't get it. I have cited the reasons I don't think

:50:41.:50:48.

that is going to be the case. It may be hard for you to grasp that you

:50:49.:50:52.

could be wrong, but if you are wrong, don't the Scottish people

:50:53.:50:56.

have a simple right to know what is your alternative? The fiscal

:50:57.:51:01.

commission report, which I have referred to before, is on the

:51:02.:51:06.

website of the Scottish government, any member of the public, any

:51:07.:51:10.

journalist, can go on to that website and read all of the currency

:51:11.:51:15.

options, the pros and cons of each of them and why the Scottish

:51:16.:51:18.

government recommends a monetary union, something we know that people

:51:19.:51:23.

deep within the UK government think will be the case once the referendum

:51:24.:51:27.

is over. What that doesn't give me is which when you would choose in

:51:28.:51:32.

the event. I know you're not going to tell me so I guess we will leave

:51:33.:51:34.

that there! Thank you very much. Plaid Cymru - the party of Wales -

:51:35.:51:44.

currently have one MEP but are putting up a full slate

:51:45.:51:47.

of candidates in Wales Their leader - Leanne Wood -

:51:48.:51:50.

joins us now from Cardiff. What makes you think people will

:51:51.:52:01.

listen to your campaign? 150,000 jobs in Wales and ?4 billion worth

:52:02.:52:07.

of investment rely on Wales being a member of the European Union. Unlike

:52:08.:52:11.

many other countries, Wales doesn't have a seat at the top table in the

:52:12.:52:14.

Council of ministers, nor do we have a seat at the top table in the

:52:15.:52:20.

to appoint any EU commissioners. So it is only through the four seats we

:52:21.:52:25.

have in the European Parliament, that is the only direct voice Wales

:52:26.:52:29.

has in the corridors of power in Brussels. That is why I am

:52:30.:52:32.

has in the corridors of power in on people to do what they can to

:52:33.:52:36.

make sure that they put the only party that will put Wales first into

:52:37.:52:41.

this election, that they will vote for Plaid Cymru to maintain a strong

:52:42.:52:46.

voice in Europe and sure that we put the national interest of Wales

:52:47.:52:52.

first. If you were in control of Wales, would you give the Welsh

:52:53.:52:55.

people a referendum on whether to stay or leave the EU? Yes, we are

:52:56.:53:02.

relaxed about holding a referendum. I think that in such a referendum,

:53:03.:53:06.

we would be putting forward the case that Wales should remain a member,

:53:07.:53:09.

albeit we would want to change aspects of the EU. But it is in our

:53:10.:53:16.

interests, and it is more clear for Wales and it is for the rest of the

:53:17.:53:20.

British state, it isn't in our interest to be a member of the EU

:53:21.:53:25.

because of all those jobs -- it is in our interest. That stance doesn't

:53:26.:53:32.

seem to be doing you any good as far as the polls are concerned, they

:53:33.:53:37.

suggest you are on the way to a very low share of the vote. Why is that?

:53:38.:53:43.

We have very few polls in Wales that cover the whole of Wales, so it is

:53:44.:53:47.

difficult to work out a pattern from those. They put you on 11 and 12%.

:53:48.:53:55.

I'm aware of the polls and what they show but Plaid Cymru is determined

:53:56.:54:02.

to do what we can to get our vote out. We are speaking to supporters

:54:03.:54:06.

of other parties who are unlikely to win seats like the Lib Dems and the

:54:07.:54:11.

Greens, and we have a prominent Lib Dems come out backing our campaign.

:54:12.:54:17.

We are doing all we can, we have our troops out on the ground between now

:54:18.:54:20.

and election day to ensure that the boat turns out. Our lead candidate

:54:21.:54:24.

is returned to the European limit. This morning Michael Gove and

:54:25.:54:29.

David Laws have penned a joint article in the Times insisting that

:54:30.:54:35.

it's all sweetness and light in the Department for Education and there

:54:36.:54:38.

are no disagreements on policy. They're not

:54:39.:54:41.

the first politicians to engage Here's Giles with

:54:42.:54:44.

the best political reconciliations . At five, the education secretary

:54:45.:54:56.

and his Lib Dem deputy joining forces in a national newspaper to

:54:57.:55:02.

declare they have made up despite a week of bare knuckle smiting over

:55:03.:55:09.

policy. At four, David Cameron and Nick Clegg finding love in the

:55:10.:55:22.

roses. At number three, stars and battle stripes in the 2008 five the

:55:23.:55:27.

democratic presidential nation, the gloves came off between Barack Obama

:55:28.:55:32.

and Hillary Clinton. In the end, diplomacy prevailed and Hillary

:55:33.:55:38.

Clinton became secretary of state. A friendship still considered in the

:55:39.:55:39.

loosest sense of the word. friendship still considered in the

:55:40.:55:46.

two, Peter Mandelson's third time lucky in government, having twice

:55:47.:55:50.

quit on the Blair, who would have thought it would be under Prime

:55:51.:55:56.

Minister Brown? And a number one, Martin McGuinness and Ian Paisley

:55:57.:55:59.

discover an unlikely friendship as joint leaders in Northern Ireland,

:56:00.:56:02.

earning the nickname the chuckle Brothers. Many on both sides found

:56:03.:56:13.

the partnership decidedly unfunny. Let's pick up their film ended. That

:56:14.:56:17.

was the most unlikely of reconciliations. The golf just

:56:18.:56:22.

seemed too wide between Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness, do you Greek

:56:23.:56:27.

was Mac they were on different sides in what was effectively a civil war,

:56:28.:56:34.

over 3000 people died. It was fantastic, and it did appear

:56:35.:56:39.

genuine, both had to shift a lot of ground to get there. Is that the

:56:40.:56:44.

prospect of power, is adjust the amount of time that has gone by,

:56:45.:56:47.

when you realise you not go to achieve your individual games? I

:56:48.:56:52.

think in Northern Ireland, they got the war weary. It had gone on for so

:56:53.:56:55.

long, no one could win, they realised that. Paisley was thinking

:56:56.:57:00.

about his place in history, did he want to go out as a figure divided

:57:01.:57:05.

or somebody who'd united. Gordon Brown and Peter Mandelson, bringing

:57:06.:57:11.

him back into the government for yet another time, that was political

:57:12.:57:17.

pragmatism, wasn't it? Gordon Brown blamed me for it, try to get me to

:57:18.:57:21.

work for him and I said no! Thingies, that is why I have got

:57:22.:57:29.

Mandelson! They did rub along OK for about 18 months, got frayed at the

:57:30.:57:32.

end but nevertheless, it was sheer pragmatism. We always see splits in

:57:33.:57:38.

part is, you don't have to be good friends, you just have to have a

:57:39.:57:41.

common purpose. Except when it comes to the coalition. That is when you

:57:42.:57:46.

have two parties and to look at David laws and Michael Gove, who

:57:47.:57:50.

seem to share a sort of ideological common ground and it has gone. They

:57:51.:57:55.

know that the elections are coming... You don't think it is

:57:56.:58:03.

real, this split? Those of us have always been told how to behave with

:58:04.:58:09.

other kids... ! Sent to the headmaster 's office! It won't

:58:10.:58:16.

last. A lot of papers say this could be the more serious of the spats

:58:17.:58:22.

within the coalition partners. They have both hoarded documents to leak

:58:23.:58:25.

against the other side, because the Tories want to blamed the Liberals

:58:26.:58:28.

for everything and the Lib Dems want to show they were stopping these

:58:29.:58:32.

nasty Tories... They have huge files! The problem for Ed Miliband

:58:33.:58:39.

and Labour is, how are they going to get a look in? That is it, we thank

:58:40.:58:42.

you all. The one o'clock news is

:58:43.:58:45.

starting over on BBC One now. I'll be on BBC One tonight for

:58:46.:58:51.

This Week with TV teacher Mr Drew, actor Clarke Peters, and Sarah Smith

:58:52.:58:54.

with a film from Edinburgh plus And I'll be here

:58:55.:58:58.

at noon tomorrow with all the big Female artists have rocked the world

:58:59.:59:10.

for centuries. Not only did she impress and surprise

:59:11.:59:12.

Michelangelo, in her nineties,

:59:13.:59:18.

she won the homage of van Dyck. So just how did they push the

:59:19.:59:21.

boundaries and flout convention?

:59:22.:59:26.

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