22/07/2014 Daily Politics


22/07/2014

Jo Coburn presents the latest political news, interviews and debate. Jo is joined by Trevor Phillips, the former chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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The report of former counter terrorism officer,

:00:39.:00:41.

Peter Clarke, into the Trojan Horse plot is about to be published.

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So was there a conspiracy to promote hardline Islamic values

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As the bodies of the almost 300 killed on flight MH17

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are handed over by Ukrainian rebels, will European Foreign Ministers hit

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Another night of violence in Gaza, as Israeli forces continue their

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Who's to blame for the continued blood-shed?

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And as MPs head off on their hols, Adam hits the beach with a bunch

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us for the whole programme today is the former Chair of the Equality and

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Human Rights Commission, Trevor Phillips. Welcome to the programme.

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First this afternoon - the Prime Minister is hosting

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poverty, early and forced marriage and, crucially, the practice of

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female genital mutilation - or FGM - within a generation. Home Secretary,

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Theresa May, spoke to the conference earlier.

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Today the Government is pleased to announce an extensive package of

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reforms, underlining the UK's committed to improve the lives of

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the thousands of girls and women in this country at risk of FGM and

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enforced marriage. Our laws must protect victims, which which is why

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we have criminalised forced marriage and why we are strengthenening our

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laws on FGM. We will give victims of FGM anonimity during court cases.

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Do you think during the past, that a blind eye has been turned or they

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have not taken up the cause of FGM because of cultural sensitivities? I

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wouldn't use the phrase "turned a blind eye" but I would say none of

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us accorded it the seriousness which it deserves. This is something, in a

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sense which takes place out of sight and doesn't in anyway affect the

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majority of the population. I think, to some extent what happened is,

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everybody said this is something we will deal with tomorrow, or, I

:02:59.:03:03.

think, less credibilitily, some people, I think, would take the view

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- we don't want to interfere with people's cultural rights and all

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that kind of nonsense. I think it is a mixture of things, but I suspect

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the main problem was - we just didn't treat it as being important.

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And now it is. And you think that is the right approach? Is it right that

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doctors and social workers and other health professionals will be under a

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mandatory obligation to report cases of FGM if they expect it is either

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going to happen or has happened? In general I'm against using the law to

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try to curb people's behaviour. However, I think in this case it is

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so serious -- and frankly, you know, we can get a bit muddled up by

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getting into issues of culture here. This is simply an assault, full

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stop. It doesn't matter who is doing it for what reason, it is an I a

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assault and needs to be stopped. If we have to use the law to achieve

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that, so be it. Do you think the law will be necessary in order to

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convince and stop people, as you say, assaulting young girls and

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young women? It is women, it is not just going to be about education? I

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don't think education - people talk about education but frankly, I think

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that soft way out. In the end - the people and families who do this

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think that - they don't need to be educated. They know all about it and

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they simply believe that, if you like, their way of looking at the

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world is superior to those who think this is a bad thing. So my view is

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that as a community, if we genuinely believe that this is unacceptable in

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our society, we have to use all the tools at our disposal, which

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includes threatening criminal sanctions. One of the problems will

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be exporting it, if you like, that actually it can happen abroad and

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then the girls are brought back in. How do you stop that? I don't think

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you can stop - because you can't. This is common in Egypt. It is

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common in Somalia. People there think we are a bit bonkers to get

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into a state about it. I think the only thing you can do, and which is

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why the law will now affect parents and teachers and so on, is to make

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sure that everybody is looking out for signs of this, so this where it

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is possible for a teacher or for a clergyman, as it is mostly men in

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this case, to spot the signs of something going to happen, they can

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intervene. I think that's the only thing you can do, to put

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responsibility on the gate keepers, on the people who have authority in

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communities. All right, let's leave it there.

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Now the former head of the Met Police's counter-terrorism

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unit, Peter Clarke, says there is evidence that there was an agenda

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to introduce "an intolerant and aggressive Islamist ethos

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That's according to reports of the findings of an inquiry he's

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headed into the so-called "Trojan Horse" plot in the city.

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Mr Clarke says there was evidence of, "A sustained and co-ordinated

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agenda to impose upon children in a number of Birmingham schools

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the segregationist attitudes and practices of a hardline and

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The report highlighted a range of problems such as the bullying

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and intimidation of head teachers, changes to the curriculum

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and education plans, including increasing the faith component,

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governors overstepping their responsibilities by restricting

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schemes of work and insisting on an Islamic approach to subjects.

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A number of institutions came in for criticism - Birmingham City

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Council had failed to spot the emerging pattern in its schools

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and the Department of Eduction was accused of "benign neglect" and not

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The report also singled out the Muslim Council of Britain

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and the Association of Muslim Schools, saying they were

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behind a movement to increase the role of Islam in education

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Joining us now from Birmingham is Rafiq Patel of

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I will be talking to Harris Rafiq of the think-tank Quilliam.

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The leak of the report identifies the Muslim Council of Britain and

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the Association of Muslim Schools as being the driving forces to increase

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Islam in education. What I would like to clarify in terms of the

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Association of Muslim Schools, they are an organisation that has no

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statutory framework in terms of enforcing any type of you

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legislative matters into schools. In fact one of the matters that is very

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important is that the schools that have been targeted by Mr Clarke's

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report, are, in fact, not AMS schools. They are in fact

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state-funded schools and they are ah cad mis. Now, in terms -- academies.

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Now, in terms of Islamic education, like Catholic, Christian and Hindu

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schools, etc, of course it is important that many students and

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many parents want their children to go to a faith-based school because

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of the more or less and the ethos. But let's not confuse this by

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seeking to increase Islamic education into the types of things

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that Mr Clarke is talking about. So is Mr Clarke wrong? Why has he

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identified the Association of Muslim Schools - I take your point that you

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weren't necessarily involved in some of the schools being investigated -

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but you do work in faith schools, in private schools, in voluntary-aided

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schools and your role is to increase Islamic education? That is correct

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but let me say again that I haven't seen the report. Obviously, all we

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have seen so far is the exstracts in the Guardian. I think there is a --

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extracts in the Guardian. I think there is a fundamental

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misunderstanding of the role of AMS. AMS is an organisation that assists

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schools who come to it. It is a membership organisation. It does not

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enforce what should or should not go on in schools. In fact, Mr Clarke no

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doubt has highlighted that the Department of Education state-funded

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schools, are the ones that he has highlighted. He has highlighted

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academies. He has highlighted. Let me finish, because it is important

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that the AMS does not go into schools and dictate what should or

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should not happen in schools. All right. What is your response, then,

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to Mr Clarke's - Mr Clarke saying he has evidence of a"... If they are

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matters he has highlighted and those are matters that he needs to take

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into account Let me say this - these are state-funded organisations, some

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of which he has highlighted. The difficulty and we have seen from the

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Ofsted inspections, that offstead inspect os are going into schools

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and they are raising issues, for example, that libraries in this

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schools are not balanced. Now, let's take a typical example. If an Ofsted

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inspector goes into a school and says there is not sufficient text on

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English books, etc, where is the guidance for that. Let's look at the

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sexual education issue which has been a big issue also. Where is the

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guidance from that? Religious education is also a big issue, where

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is the guidance? Tolerance is an issue, where is the guidance on all

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of this. I think this is where the Government needs to concentrate and

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give guidance to these schools to say - look, this is where we want to

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see things. All right. Let me come to you, Harris Rafiq, because we

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have heard there from the Association of Muslim Schools, from

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Mr Patel saying he doesn't feel his association had anything to do with

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what was allegedly going on in the schools being investigated but the

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criticisms are quite stark from the leaked extracts. Do you think,

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though, that by talking about a Trojan Horse plot, and by talking

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about alleged violent extremism, in a which, it has masked what has

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really been going on in some of the Birmingham schools? Yes, I think

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that perhaps the original Trojan Horse document, per se, was found to

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be something written by somebody who wanted to highlight what was going

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on. I think we need to put that to one side. We need to focus on what

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the findings of the investigations were. The Ofsted findings were very

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clear. Peter Clarke's findings, although we haven't seen the full

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report, we have seen extracts of it, are they clear on what it suggests

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what it has found. If the case is - as it has been proven - than there

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is an agenda where there are library books in certain schools n primary

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schools where children are taught that in an ideal Islamic state

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anybody who is an apostate or anybody who commits adultery should

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be stoned, that's something we need to fix and should sort out. I'm fed

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up with organisations who may have as the head as the AMS has, the head

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of the organisation, the founder of the organisation, who has these

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views and has written a become about it. I think that's maybe where

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people may be in denial of what organisations that may assist

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schools, such as the ASM, have. Because if they believe these, how

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can they support a school? Is the problem that there is a conflict

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here between British values and what the Government talks about British

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values in schools and particularly these schools which have been

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investigated in Birmingham, and roles of organisations, who are

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promoting Islam and the two don't really come together? To be frank, I

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think people are getting into a rather abstract conversation about

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things which we can't quite get a handle on, like what are British

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values. I think there is a more fundamental problem here, which is

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very, very simple - how can it be that in a city like Birmingham,

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which is whatever it is, 25, 30, 40% minority that there are 20, 25

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schools which are 90% Muslim children? The problem here is not

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some conspiracy. It is a simple fact that we have a schools' system which

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allows effective segregation and in that situation, it is almost

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inevitable that some schools are going to operate according to

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different rules because that - if I may finish - that is what the

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parents and actually the communities close to those schools actually

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want. Do they? Do they... We have to make a decision about whether we

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think this is OK or not? Let's reframe the deba. If we talked about

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racism. You would say any school that you thought had low moral

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values or any school that was inferior, or any school that is

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different to them. That's a not the issue. It is. If you look at the

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Ofsted report and the findings from Peter Clarke, there have been many

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instances where teachers have been classing white women with low moral

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values, and white women as white prostitutes. And there are teachers

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who have been driving a particular racist segregational agenda and this

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is aeted problem. Irrespective of whether it is a ghetto of people who

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are 90% Muslim or not. If somebody is racist, if there is an Islaist

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totalitarian agenda, there is a problem. Do you think a children is

:15:19.:15:24.

going to be able to save that in a classroom where 40% of the children

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are white? Would they get away with it? This morning, Sarah Hewitt

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Clarkson, a head #250e67er, not of one of the schools investigated but

:15:33.:15:37.

a school in the area and she was interviewed as part of the Clarke

:15:38.:15:41.

inquiry, she said she had a number of aggressive Muslim men pushing an

:15:42.:15:46.

Islamic agenda and in the past h female teachers, as you were saying,

:15:47.:15:51.

that parents said demanded they wore headscarves when they left the

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school. Is it acceptable even if 95% of the children are Muslim? It is

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inevitable if that is the composition of the school. It is not

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like there is a choice. The only way to prevent this happening, unless

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you have stepped on the premises every single day, is to make sure

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that we do not have schools which essentially become wholly of one

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ethnicity. I agree with your analysis of the fact that there is a

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particular property, one particular faith in this instance, but I do not

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believe the majority of Muslim parents in the Birmingham area or

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you have stepped on the premises every single day, anywhere else want

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their children to be taught certain views that are racist, homophobic,

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that our segregationist, that will set them up later in life to not be

:17:25.:17:27.

the most positive contributing adults and British citizens that

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they could be. I do not believe the majority of parents want that. What

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do you say to that? It is an obvious point that does not even need to be

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made. The majority of parents believe in British values and the

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key to these schools is the headteachers, the key to these

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schools is the governing bodies, and the key clips Mike but they have

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been put under pressure by governors, by parents, who are

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pushing according an Islamist ethos which they should not be doing. Wren

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if it is an Islamist ethos in contradiction to British values then

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that is clearly wrong. We are in a British system, it is a British

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school and that is paramount. If they want to teach Islamist values

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against that, that is fine. But we are in a British education system

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and the government needs to look at the regulation and management of

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these schools, which are state funded.

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It's just 10 months until the next general election -

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as if I needed to remind you. With the polls tight,

:18:17.:18:18.

politicians will be fighting for every available vote.

:18:19.:18:20.

But a report written by our guest of the day, Trevor Phillips,

:18:21.:18:23.

says that all political parties need to do more to woo ethnic minority

:18:24.:18:26.

voters in particular, as Eleanor Garnier has been finding out.

:18:27.:18:28.

Croydon, where more than 100 different languages are spoken. It

:18:29.:18:38.

is predicted that the percentage of people from black and ethnic

:18:39.:18:43.

minority communities here will rise to 57%. Which parties are picking up

:18:44.:18:48.

the votes? Croydon Central is a marginal constituency. It is held by

:18:49.:18:52.

the Conservatives with a majority just under 3000 votes. At the recent

:18:53.:18:58.

local elections, the Tories lost control of the council. Now it is

:18:59.:19:04.

Labour who are in charge. The boom in the BME population means

:19:05.:19:08.

politicians on all sides in Ards no seats need to take note. The Labour

:19:09.:19:17.

Party, who most BME communities would four, the issue is not about

:19:18.:19:21.

being complacent but working as hard as possible to retain the vote. --

:19:22.:19:27.

vote for. Those parties who have not enjoyed the BME vote, they need to

:19:28.:19:31.

recognise that those votes are out there to be won. That warning to

:19:32.:19:38.

political parties is echoed in a report co-authored by Professor

:19:39.:19:47.

Webber. In the early years when BME migrants came, it was ashamed they

:19:48.:19:51.

would come to live act. But now they are moving into middle-class suburbs

:19:52.:19:56.

so it is questionable but they will vote for the same party. So if the

:19:57.:20:03.

BME vote is on the move what is influencing how people vote? Is it

:20:04.:20:06.

parents, culture, friends, or political parties? I think it is

:20:07.:20:13.

friends, family, the culture. Family would influence me. -- would not

:20:14.:20:21.

influence me. It is my own decision. What influences you when you fold? I

:20:22.:20:27.

look at the government and what it does for the people, their manifesto

:20:28.:20:32.

and all that. My family are very independent. Myself, I am on the

:20:33.:20:42.

brink of what politicians are saying. Community leaders say there

:20:43.:20:48.

is another significant challenge. The reality is there are a lot of

:20:49.:20:52.

concerns within communities. Those concerns will not be addressed if

:20:53.:20:56.

people do not actually engage more practically. There is a big issue of

:20:57.:21:04.

a small population of BME are registered to vote. We want to

:21:05.:21:09.

encourage more people to register. Out of 650 MPs, just 26 or from

:21:10.:21:15.

black and ethnic minority backgrounds. All political parties

:21:16.:21:19.

know there is a long way to go until Westminster truly reflects the

:21:20.:21:34.

diversity of the whole of the UK. From an electoral point of view, how

:21:35.:21:38.

important is the black and ethnic minority vote? Imlach pretty

:21:39.:21:44.

important. About a quarter of Labour's vote are ethnic minority

:21:45.:21:54.

and black. Over the next 25 years, the minority share of the electorate

:21:55.:21:58.

is going to climb and it is claiming more rapidly in this country than

:21:59.:22:03.

anywhere else in Europe. In about 25 years' time it could be up to 40% of

:22:04.:22:09.

the electorate. Decisions made now we'll really have a major impact on

:22:10.:22:16.

parties' outcomes over the next 20-25 years. So Labour has an

:22:17.:22:20.

in-built advantage because of tradition and history. Is that

:22:21.:22:23.

changing or will they be the beneficiaries of that increasing

:22:24.:22:27.

share of the vote in the next few elections? It is changing a bit but

:22:28.:22:31.

it is not changing at the rate anybody imagined it would do. It

:22:32.:22:35.

used to be the case that Labour would take 85% of the minority vote

:22:36.:22:41.

and are it is about 70%. There is no indication that there's going to

:22:42.:22:44.

change radically. There is no history anywhere in the Western

:22:45.:22:49.

world of what you might call a culturally inflicted vote changing

:22:50.:22:53.

its choice very rapidly. It takes generations. That will make it

:22:54.:22:59.

difficult for you. If you just look at the numbers voting for Labour in

:23:00.:23:02.

the past, if the number of black and ethnic minority voters continues to

:23:03.:23:07.

go up, and it is a very slow swap over to the Conservatives, you will

:23:08.:23:11.

struggle to win an outright majority? It is long-term but in the

:23:12.:23:16.

debate on this we must perhaps the most obvious point, which is that as

:23:17.:23:23.

a child of emigrants, maybe third generation immigrants, they come to

:23:24.:23:27.

this country because they are ambitious. They want a better future

:23:28.:23:31.

for their children, they want the best schooling, and if we as a party

:23:32.:23:36.

can tie that in and make sure our values resonate there there is...

:23:37.:23:41.

But you have failed to do that. As Trevor said, this is about the

:23:42.:23:46.

long-term and being consistent. We need to talk about our Conservative

:23:47.:23:52.

Party is and how they are immigrant values of the -- are Conservative

:23:53.:23:59.

Party values. Let's talk about how you are losing the share of the

:24:00.:24:04.

vote, do you accept that? I do not accept that. I do not accept that

:24:05.:24:09.

Labour takes any votes for granted. They have been accused of taking

:24:10.:24:13.

working class white voters for granted and the ethnic minority

:24:14.:24:19.

voters. Politics is about relationships with communities and

:24:20.:24:23.

reflect on what people's needs are within a political discourse and

:24:24.:24:27.

Labour has had a strong history with the Race Relations Act and things

:24:28.:24:34.

since then. There are issues about representation in politics. We have

:24:35.:24:39.

seen measures like diversity targets on public wards, which the

:24:40.:24:45.

Conservatives to go away. What you have to say is high a political

:24:46.:24:51.

party is representing the needs and issues of the diverse community in

:24:52.:24:58.

politics? -- is how is a political party. Was there a perception that

:24:59.:25:03.

the Tories are anti-immigrant and that legacy exists, and it is

:25:04.:25:08.

hampering your attempts to woo ethnic minority voters? I am an East

:25:09.:25:17.

African seek, so the irony is quite strong. -- Sikh. Never say never in

:25:18.:25:27.

politics. It is visible message, BME voters are no different from anybody

:25:28.:25:31.

else. I have the same values. It is as tying in and making sure we make

:25:32.:25:37.

the connection. There is one other point. They are making decisions

:25:38.:25:41.

about how they are affected by the cost of living crisis. People have

:25:42.:25:46.

housing problems, employment problems, but there are still

:25:47.:25:50.

fundamental inequalities in our society which politics has to

:25:51.:25:54.

represent, whether that is the higher levels of unemployment in BME

:25:55.:25:58.

communities, how that differs from different areas, whether there is

:25:59.:26:01.

representation in fair treatment with public services. You cannot

:26:02.:26:08.

gloss over those matters. You have two ask if politics represented. I

:26:09.:26:12.

am glad she raised that point. She is right, there is an issue around

:26:13.:26:15.

unemployment. If you look at the last five years we have seen a

:26:16.:26:20.

narrowing of the gap in terms of levels of unemployment. Generally

:26:21.:26:24.

across BME communities as a whole, the whole point is about social

:26:25.:26:31.

mobility. Nobody from a BME background want equal access and a

:26:32.:26:34.

fair crack of the whip. Do they see that as link to the Conservative

:26:35.:26:38.

Party? Which policies could they say, if you're from an ethnic

:26:39.:26:43.

minority community, that is because they are a Conservative government?

:26:44.:26:53.

I am from a state school and a further education college. Rather

:26:54.:27:05.

than taking the BME voters at face value, we have engaged. There is a

:27:06.:27:12.

Sikh school pursuing academic access in my constituency. There is a

:27:13.:27:22.

political denial which affects British politics. In the US they

:27:23.:27:28.

accept it is about race. The reason minorities do not vote for

:27:29.:27:33.

Conservatives is because they think the Conservatives do not like them.

:27:34.:27:37.

That is more important than anything. One of the very

:27:38.:27:41.

interesting pieces of research that came out in 2010 was that Labour

:27:42.:27:47.

supporters, black or white or non-white, had no difference in

:27:48.:27:52.

their views about the economy, all of those kinds of issues. There is

:27:53.:27:57.

only one thing that minority Labour voters and white Labour voters

:27:58.:28:01.

differed on and that is attitudes to immigration. The gap between white

:28:02.:28:04.

Labour supporters and minority Labour supporters was as big as the

:28:05.:28:09.

gap between white Labour supporters and white conservative supporters.

:28:10.:28:13.

The point I am making here is, it is true that on a lot of issues

:28:14.:28:16.

minority voters are particularly different to white voters. The

:28:17.:28:19.

things they think are most important make them very, very different. In

:28:20.:28:27.

order to increase representation, ethnic minority short lists - are

:28:28.:28:33.

the edit thing? I think it is important that we seek people coming

:28:34.:28:41.

through into our politics. In my constituency we have people who are

:28:42.:28:44.

active within political networks, whether they are from an African

:28:45.:28:49.

background, Sri Lankan, Indian, other South Asian, Pakistani, you

:28:50.:28:54.

have got to see people coming through who are feeling

:28:55.:28:57.

have got to see people coming are valued, part of the sphere of

:28:58.:29:01.

politics, people coming forward as counsellors and standing for

:29:02.:29:07.

Parliament. The most important thing, irrespective of the economy,

:29:08.:29:17.

is the presence of people like them in front line politics. You better

:29:18.:29:18.

get out onto the campaign trail. Now, foreign ministers are meeting

:29:19.:29:22.

in Brussels today to discuss what action the EU should take over

:29:23.:29:25.

the Malaysia Airlines flight that David Cameron told the Commons

:29:26.:29:27.

yesterday that if the Russian President, Vladimir

:29:28.:29:30.

Putin, could not end his support for the separatist rebels in Ukraine,

:29:31.:29:32.

then Europe and the West should be prepared to "fundamentally change"

:29:33.:29:35.

its relationship with Moscow. As Philip Hammond arrived

:29:36.:29:37.

for the summit he said a clear message had to be sent to Russia.

:29:38.:29:49.

The meeting today is an opportunity for us to send a clear signal to

:29:50.:29:54.

Russia. We are pleased there is movement now on repatrioting the

:29:55.:29:58.

victims. Pleased that there is some access being granted to the site but

:29:59.:30:06.

we mustn't forget the overall all, that this terrible incident happened

:30:07.:30:11.

in the fist place because of Russia's support to the separatists

:30:12.:30:15.

in eastern Ukraine and we have to address that issue today. I shall be

:30:16.:30:18.

urging my colleagues and our partners to send a very clear and

:30:19.:30:22.

strong signal to Russia. REPORTER: Do you think some European countries

:30:23.:30:27.

are putting self-interest first? Look, everybody wants to see a

:30:28.:30:31.

balanced set of measures as we go forward. The world has changed since

:30:32.:30:37.

the European Council last week. The events of last Thursday have changed

:30:38.:30:41.

public expectations upon us, and we have to send a clear signal today

:30:42.:30:46.

that we recognise that and there go further. I'm joined by our Political

:30:47.:30:51.

Correspondent Ben Wright from Brussels. That's the rhetoric. What

:30:52.:30:56.

about action that can be realistically agreed, Ben? The

:30:57.:30:59.

meeting began with a minute's silence, everybody stood up, then

:31:00.:31:03.

the Dutch Foreign Minister spoke first and said action needed to be

:31:04.:31:06.

taken because of Russia's support for the rebels. But, as you say, Jo,

:31:07.:31:11.

lots of rhetoric, I don't think it is going to be matched by action

:31:12.:31:15.

here today. My sense is that at the end of this discussion, there will

:31:16.:31:19.

be a commitment to come up with a list of names andentities and

:31:20.:31:22.

companies that will be subject to fresh sanctions, particularly people

:31:23.:31:29.

and companies close to to the Russian President, Vladimir Putin

:31:30.:31:33.

and his cronies within the Kremlin but what there won't be, I don't

:31:34.:31:40.

think, is any action at all on broad sector sanctions, economic and

:31:41.:31:43.

financial sanctions. There has been discussions about an arms embargo.

:31:44.:31:47.

Very difficult to do. European countries have all sorts of

:31:48.:31:51.

different self-interest at play here. That practically, movement on

:31:52.:31:55.

those sanctions is a long way down the track. Is that bus of

:31:56.:31:59.

self-interest. We heard Philip Hammond being asked that,

:32:00.:32:04.

self-interest in countries like Germany and Italy, reliant on Russia

:32:05.:32:10.

for gas and also the financial relationship. Is that the block on

:32:11.:32:16.

sanctions, to stop it going further? There is a technical block in terms

:32:17.:32:20.

of the legality of implementing the sanctions. It would need the

:32:21.:32:24.

agreement of all European Union heads of government to move on to

:32:25.:32:29.

the so-called stage 3 sanctions, the sector-wide one which would really

:32:30.:32:33.

hurt the Russian economy. That requires agreement and there

:32:34.:32:36.

arisation that the foreign ministers don't have. Then there is the fact

:32:37.:32:39.

that all sorts of countries have their own different relationships

:32:40.:32:42.

with Russia. Countries like the Netherlands, like Germany, heavily

:32:43.:32:49.

reliant on Russian energy. There is an established military relationship

:32:50.:32:52.

between France and Russia. Controversial lit French were about

:32:53.:32:57.

to sell the two warships at a cost of ?1.2 billion that the French

:32:58.:33:00.

Government seems to have no interest in stopping at this late stage. All

:33:01.:33:04.

that Russian money running threw the City of London. There would be a

:33:05.:33:08.

price to play in different ways and different European countries if

:33:09.:33:11.

those sorts of broader economic sanctions were followed through. At

:33:12.:33:14.

the moment I don't think there is the agreement, the appetite to go

:33:15.:33:16.

down that route. Thank you.

:33:17.:33:23.

Foreign Ministers in Brussels are also discussing the situation

:33:24.:33:25.

Overnight the Israeli offensive against Hamas continued.

:33:26.:33:28.

Since 8th July, 605 Palestinians have died.

:33:29.:33:31.

According to the Israelis, around 180 Hamas militants have

:33:32.:33:33.

27 Israeli soldiers and two Israeli civilians have also lost

:33:34.:33:37.

Let's get the latest from our correspondent in Gaza,

:33:38.:33:43.

Can you bring us up-to-date with what is happening at the moment?

:33:44.:33:54.

Well here in Gaza for the past few hours we have had an intense aerial

:33:55.:33:59.

bombardment by Israel. We woke up to the sound of air strikes close to

:34:00.:34:04.

our hotel. You can hear the drones at the moment there. Has been

:34:05.:34:11.

shelling to the east of Gaza city. In those neighbourhoods. And also

:34:12.:34:15.

going south from there. We heard from health officials that some 50

:34:16.:34:19.

Palestinians have been killed since midnight local time across the Gaza

:34:20.:34:25.

Strip. So, really, the fighting here continue very intensely as those

:34:26.:34:34.

diplomatic efforts gather pace in Cairo. We have the US Secretary of

:34:35.:34:37.

State, John Kerry there, meeting officious from the Arab League and

:34:38.:34:41.

Egyptian officials and the US Secretary-General, Ban Ki-Moon has

:34:42.:34:44.

been in Cairo. He is going to go and meet Israeli officials and will make

:34:45.:34:49.

his way to Ramallah to meet officials there. Is there any

:34:50.:34:52.

realistic prospect that this fighting will stop any time soon,

:34:53.:34:56.

whilst these diplomatic negotiations continue? Well, certainly on the

:34:57.:35:01.

ground at the moment it doesn't feel like it. What Hamas is insisting

:35:02.:35:08.

upon, when you speak to Hamas officials s their conditions for a

:35:09.:35:12.

truce must be met. They feel it is not sats frack trito have a

:35:13.:35:17.

reimplement igs not satisfaction tri. It is to have a reintroduction

:35:18.:35:24.

of a previous truce. Hamas at the moment are asking for the release by

:35:25.:35:29.

Israel of many of their prisoners from Israeli jails. There has been a

:35:30.:35:34.

round-ups by Hamas in the weeks before this offensive, which is what

:35:35.:35:38.

led to the breakdown between Hamas and Israel and Hamas also wants to

:35:39.:35:43.

see an easing of the very tight border restrictions that are imposed

:35:44.:35:51.

on the Gaza Strip both by -- by both Israel and Egypt and there has been

:35:52.:35:56.

a change in government in Egypt and it is a military-led government, led

:35:57.:36:02.

by the Muslim Brotherhood group, and that has led to a deterioration of

:36:03.:36:05.

the quality of life here. Complr Is there anything that the

:36:06.:36:25.

West can do to solve this? We need the European Union, and the Israeli

:36:26.:36:30.

Government to work together to show leadership and to act as an a honest

:36:31.:36:38.

broke. Yet again it has been shown that Israel has shown complete

:36:39.:36:42.

disregard for humanitarian issues. 600 people are dead, mainly

:36:43.:36:46.

civilians, 100 thousand seeking refuge. We need the European Union

:36:47.:36:50.

to be a strong voice in recognising, of course, that Israel needs to

:36:51.:36:53.

maintain its security but its reaction and response is not

:36:54.:36:56.

proportionate. We need the European Union, including the British

:36:57.:37:00.

Government, to speak up and work towards resuming peace negotiations,

:37:01.:37:03.

which have been completely elusive over recent years. How does Israel

:37:04.:37:08.

maintain its security without this sort of silence that escalates?

:37:09.:37:12.

Well, this sort of violence and the death of so many people,

:37:13.:37:15.

particularly Palestinians, of course, there have been casualties

:37:16.:37:20.

on the Israeli side as well but the vast majority have been

:37:21.:37:25.

Palestinians, won't secure Israel, won't provide long-term security.

:37:26.:37:28.

What we need is the international community to work together. But,

:37:29.:37:34.

also, Israel needs to respect international humanitarian law,

:37:35.:37:36.

international law generally and that's not happening. Has Israel

:37:37.:37:41.

disregarded humanitarian and international law by going into Gaza

:37:42.:37:45.

in the way they have? No, not at all. Apart from anything else, the

:37:46.:37:49.

very muted response, and indeed in many cases a very encouraging

:37:50.:37:52.

response for Israel from the international community is, I think

:37:53.:37:56.

testament to the fact that it is playing, not just by the rules but

:37:57.:37:59.

by the most stringent rules imaginable. The reason why the

:38:00.:38:04.

casualties exist in the Gaza is obviously because Israel is trying,

:38:05.:38:07.

as an operational objective to stop Hamas and other jihadist groups from

:38:08.:38:12.

firing rockets into Israel. In order to do that Israel is carrying out a

:38:13.:38:16.

very, very targeted campaign. It is inevitable in that, that civilians

:38:17.:38:22.

are going to be killed. Let mow finish. One of the reasons why it is

:38:23.:38:26.

targeted, because they are trying to get launchpads where the rock

:38:27.:38:30.

receipts coming from. One of the reasons why there is a problem

:38:31.:38:34.

andence dentally CNN has a tape of this, amongst others, ham has has

:38:35.:38:39.

been edge couraging the people of Gaza to protect the houses of Hamas

:38:40.:38:44.

commanders, to congregate around areas where Israelis have texted to

:38:45.:38:48.

say - this jr going to be hit. Ham has is trying to maximise the

:38:49.:38:54.

casualties. -- this jr going to be hit. Ham has is trying to maximise

:38:55.:39:02.

the casualties. The international community - this

:39:03.:39:05.

is the third time now this has happened, and I would suggest. It is

:39:06.:39:08.

more than the third time. There has been this exchange since 2007. We

:39:09.:39:12.

will look at the operational and what actually both sides are hoping

:39:13.:39:19.

to achieve but Rushanara Ali you said at the weekend that David

:39:20.:39:24.

Cameron failed to show international leadership, "My party is with you

:39:25.:39:27.

and the friends of Palestine are with you." Do you have Ed Miliband's

:39:28.:39:32.

support for your line on this conflict? Ed Miliband has made it

:39:33.:39:35.

clear that the incursion, the ground incursion, rebels, will European -

:39:36.:39:38.

rebels, will European - he said this only yesterday - the ground

:39:39.:39:41.

incursion is not one that is supported. We recognise Israel's

:39:42.:39:49.

demand, as Ed Miliband has said, for its security. But its response has

:39:50.:39:53.

been disproportionate and the point about international leadership is if

:39:54.:39:56.

you look at what David Cameron said in 2010, he described the blockade

:39:57.:40:02.

of Gaza as "an open prison", "Gaza an people are suffering." The

:40:03.:40:07.

collective fault of Hamas as well as Israel? Of course. These groups -

:40:08.:40:14.

the public and Palestinians are suffering. And leaders have a

:40:15.:40:20.

responsibility to respond. The last thing is there have been a series of

:40:21.:40:26.

ground and air operations by the Israeli ge fence force by Hamas and

:40:27.:40:32.

there are half a dozen. The rockets still continue to come into Israel.

:40:33.:40:38.

So the question is. Are these innocent Palestinians losing their

:40:39.:40:40.

lives for nothing? The Israelis are not achieving their aims. The

:40:41.:40:44.

rockets continue from Hamas. All right, you are saying they hide

:40:45.:40:47.

their munitions, rockets and militant leaders in civilian

:40:48.:40:50.

buildings but in the end, the Israelis have not stopped the

:40:51.:40:53.

rockets coming in and more Palestinians are dying. Anyone

:40:54.:40:58.

interested in bringing peace to the region have to bear in mind the

:40:59.:41:02.

serious learn curve the Israelis went through after withdrawal in

:41:03.:41:06.

2000 #5, they got not peace from Gaza but rocket fire, thousands and

:41:07.:41:09.

thousands of rockets. Since they have been trying to stop the rocket

:41:10.:41:14.

fire. Since 2007 when Hamas did a military coup in the Gaza and killed

:41:15.:41:18.

their fellow Palestinians, the Israelis have on three major

:41:19.:41:21.

occasions gone in. The problem with this is that the international

:41:22.:41:25.

community tends to allow Israel some weeks in order to achieve the

:41:26.:41:28.

operational objective. They are going to lose international support,

:41:29.:41:31.

aren't they? The crucial thing to add, it is very important that

:41:32.:41:35.

Israel is allowed to win at some point. The international community

:41:36.:41:41.

is quite good at prolonging the conflict by not... What does a win

:41:42.:41:45.

look like in this case, can there ever be a military solution to this

:41:46.:41:49.

problem of, particularly, Gaza, and Israel, rather than the West Bank

:41:50.:41:53.

and Israel? It is a platitude, but it happens to be true here. There

:41:54.:41:58.

are going to be no winners here, whatever the outcome. I think that,

:41:59.:42:03.

you know, speak personally, my heart is rather with has been said, but I

:42:04.:42:10.

have two caveats, one is that I really dislike the tendency,

:42:11.:42:13.

particularly from the media here always to put Israel in the dock

:42:14.:42:17.

here. The truth of the matter is that the people of Gaza actually

:42:18.:42:22.

voted for Hamas and they voted knowing what would happen. Hamas has

:42:23.:42:28.

been very clear, it has no intention of making peace with Israel. So,

:42:29.:42:32.

actually, you know, this is a horrible, cruel thing to say - this

:42:33.:42:37.

is the result of a democratic outcome. And, by the way, the really

:42:38.:42:43.

bigger issue here is Egypt because that's what really has made the big

:42:44.:42:47.

difference here. And Egypt is also worried about being on the border

:42:48.:42:52.

with Gaza. The peculiar thing is Israel and Egypt, relative to Gaza

:42:53.:42:55.

are in exactly the same position right now. I think the notion of the

:42:56.:43:00.

way that we tend to report this, which is that it is Israel verses

:43:01.:43:03.

suffering Palestinians, is just not right. That's not what this is

:43:04.:43:09.

about. Rush an aria ally. What is it that Hamas wants to achieve. What is

:43:10.:43:13.

it - amean Trevor Phillips said people voted for Hamas, as owe

:43:14.:43:16.

foesed to Fatah and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, they

:43:17.:43:19.

voted for Hamas, knowing they would be much more hardline. So what is it

:43:20.:43:24.

that they want? I hope that what Trevor is not saying is that by

:43:25.:43:28.

voting for Hamas, those who voted were, in some way, are now deserve,

:43:29.:43:35.

you know the punishment, collective punishment. It is not collective

:43:36.:43:39.

punishment. An outrageous thing to say. You know that's not what I'm

:43:40.:43:44.

saying at all. I very much hope not. But the point is that this cycle of

:43:45.:43:49.

violence is going on and on. The fact is that the Palestinians have

:43:50.:43:52.

lived under occupation and Gaza... They are not under occupation. They

:43:53.:43:56.

have their own state. The Gaza is a state It is nonsense. It is run by

:43:57.:44:01.

Hamas. They had one election which as Trevor said the people voted for

:44:02.:44:04.

Hamas. Hamas then killed the opposition and they have never had

:44:05.:44:08.

an election since. They could have a a state. If they wanted it. Let her

:44:09.:44:15.

finish her point. This seems to be a bit of am niecia here about the

:44:16.:44:19.

history of what is happening in that region and the fact that

:44:20.:44:22.

Palestinians don't have a state, they have, you know, lived under

:44:23.:44:24.

occupation, they have lived under attack and what we need is, rapidly,

:44:25.:44:31.

in order to secure peace, which is rapidly eluding this region, which

:44:32.:44:36.

need the international community - we need the leaders in America and

:44:37.:44:41.

Europe to work together to resume negotiations. So to what? To bring

:44:42.:44:46.

an end to the conflict. The end of the conflict will be fastly brought

:44:47.:44:50.

about by Hamas being thrown out of the West Bank by the Palestinians in

:44:51.:44:54.

the West Bank by by any force available. The two-state solution,

:44:55.:44:58.

and it is a dream but still a possible dream. Do the Israelis

:44:59.:45:02.

believe in that? I think they do with the West Bank. The

:45:03.:45:06.

irreconcilable problem at the moment s what do you want to do with Hamas

:45:07.:45:11.

which wants to annihilate the Jewish state and does not want peace? #1y50

:45:12.:45:14.

the agenda is being controlled by people who don't want peace, whether

:45:15.:45:19.

it is the settlers, with West Bank, or its Hamas. That is aeted problem.

:45:20.:45:24.

How do we wrestle an agenda out of the hands of those groups of people,

:45:25.:45:28.

who, by the way, are not states, these are gangs. University funding

:45:29.:45:43.

is back in the spotlight with claims that the government's new student

:45:44.:45:47.

loan scheme could cost more than the previous system. The Business,

:45:48.:45:51.

Innovation and Skills Select Committee has produced a report

:45:52.:45:56.

warning that the taxpayer is losing 45p on every ?1 loan to students.

:45:57.:46:00.

You is what the Labour chairman had to say. The rate of default on loans

:46:01.:46:06.

is rapidly reaching 50%. It is currently at 45%. At that point it

:46:07.:46:14.

becomes an economic. This is being made more difficult because the

:46:15.:46:17.

government is committed to increasing the number of students by

:46:18.:46:25.

60,000 in the 15/16 intake. We have an underlying problem and the

:46:26.:46:28.

addition of the students will only make it worse. I am joined now by

:46:29.:46:36.

Megan Bond, the vice president for higher education at the National

:46:37.:46:42.

Union of Students and the director of the Social Market Foundation. Can

:46:43.:46:46.

you argue that the fact that this is costing so much shows the taxpayer

:46:47.:46:49.

is taking the strain of the system rather than the student? What is

:46:50.:46:54.

really clear from this committee report is that the current system is

:46:55.:47:03.

being funded by public money. The government is actually

:47:04.:47:04.

being funded by public money. The government is funding it at the

:47:05.:47:08.

wrong end of the system. Instead of funding students to go through the

:47:09.:47:12.

system, they are writing get off at the end. -- writing that's off. This

:47:13.:47:19.

could cost the Godman more than the previous system. -- cost the

:47:20.:47:26.

government more. It is close to reaching the tipping point, where it

:47:27.:47:28.

will cost the

:47:29.0:40:34

Jo Coburn is joined by Trevor Phillips, the former chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission. They discuss possible sanctions with Russia. Plus all the other political news, interviews and debate.


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