22/07/2014 Daily Politics

Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics.

The report of former counter terrorism officer,

Peter Clarke, into the Trojan Horse plot is about to be published.

So was there a conspiracy to promote hardline Islamic values

As the bodies of the almost 300 killed on flight MH17

are handed over by Ukrainian rebels, will European Foreign Ministers hit

Another night of violence in Gaza, as Israeli forces continue their

Who's to blame for the continued blood-shed?

And as MPs head off on their hols, Adam hits the beach with a bunch

us for the whole programme today is the former Chair of the Equality and

Human Rights Commission, Trevor Phillips. Welcome to the programme.

First this afternoon - the Prime Minister is hosting

poverty, early and forced marriage and, crucially, the practice of

female genital mutilation - or FGM - within a generation. Home Secretary,

Theresa May, spoke to the conference earlier.

Today the Government is pleased to announce an extensive package of

reforms, underlining the UK's committed to improve the lives of

the thousands of girls and women in this country at risk of FGM and

enforced marriage. Our laws must protect victims, which which is why

we have criminalised forced marriage and why we are strengthenening our

laws on FGM. We will give victims of FGM anonimity during court cases.

Do you think during the past, that a blind eye has been turned or they

have not taken up the cause of FGM because of cultural sensitivities? I

wouldn't use the phrase "turned a blind eye" but I would say none of

us accorded it the seriousness which it deserves. This is something, in a

sense which takes place out of sight and doesn't in anyway affect the

majority of the population. I think, to some extent what happened is,

everybody said this is something we will deal with tomorrow, or, I

think, less credibilitily, some people, I think, would take the view

- we don't want to interfere with people's cultural rights and all

that kind of nonsense. I think it is a mixture of things, but I suspect

the main problem was - we just didn't treat it as being important.

And now it is. And you think that is the right approach? Is it right that

doctors and social workers and other health professionals will be under a

mandatory obligation to report cases of FGM if they expect it is either

going to happen or has happened? In general I'm against using the law to

try to curb people's behaviour. However, I think in this case it is

so serious -- and frankly, you know, we can get a bit muddled up by

getting into issues of culture here. This is simply an assault, full

stop. It doesn't matter who is doing it for what reason, it is an I a

assault and needs to be stopped. If we have to use the law to achieve

that, so be it. Do you think the law will be necessary in order to

convince and stop people, as you say, assaulting young girls and

young women? It is women, it is not just going to be about education? I

don't think education - people talk about education but frankly, I think

that soft way out. In the end - the people and families who do this

think that - they don't need to be educated. They know all about it and

they simply believe that, if you like, their way of looking at the

world is superior to those who think this is a bad thing. So my view is

that as a community, if we genuinely believe that this is unacceptable in

our society, we have to use all the tools at our disposal, which

includes threatening criminal sanctions. One of the problems will

be exporting it, if you like, that actually it can happen abroad and

then the girls are brought back in. How do you stop that? I don't think

you can stop - because you can't. This is common in Egypt. It is

common in Somalia. People there think we are a bit bonkers to get

into a state about it. I think the only thing you can do, and which is

why the law will now affect parents and teachers and so on, is to make

sure that everybody is looking out for signs of this, so this where it

is possible for a teacher or for a clergyman, as it is mostly men in

this case, to spot the signs of something going to happen, they can

intervene. I think that's the only thing you can do, to put

responsibility on the gate keepers, on the people who have authority in

communities. All right, let's leave it there.

Now the former head of the Met Police's counter-terrorism

unit, Peter Clarke, says there is evidence that there was an agenda

to introduce "an intolerant and aggressive Islamist ethos

That's according to reports of the findings of an inquiry he's

headed into the so-called "Trojan Horse" plot in the city.

Mr Clarke says there was evidence of, "A sustained and co-ordinated

agenda to impose upon children in a number of Birmingham schools

the segregationist attitudes and practices of a hardline and

The report highlighted a range of problems such as the bullying

and intimidation of head teachers, changes to the curriculum

and education plans, including increasing the faith component,

governors overstepping their responsibilities by restricting

schemes of work and insisting on an Islamic approach to subjects.

A number of institutions came in for criticism - Birmingham City

Council had failed to spot the emerging pattern in its schools

and the Department of Eduction was accused of "benign neglect" and not

The report also singled out the Muslim Council of Britain

and the Association of Muslim Schools, saying they were

behind a movement to increase the role of Islam in education

Joining us now from Birmingham is Rafiq Patel of

I will be talking to Harris Rafiq of the think-tank Quilliam.

The leak of the report identifies the Muslim Council of Britain and

the Association of Muslim Schools as being the driving forces to increase

Islam in education. What I would like to clarify in terms of the

Association of Muslim Schools, they are an organisation that has no

statutory framework in terms of enforcing any type of you

legislative matters into schools. In fact one of the matters that is very

important is that the schools that have been targeted by Mr Clarke's

report, are, in fact, not AMS schools. They are in fact

state-funded schools and they are ah cad mis. Now, in terms -- academies.

Now, in terms of Islamic education, like Catholic, Christian and Hindu

schools, etc, of course it is important that many students and

many parents want their children to go to a faith-based school because

of the more or less and the ethos. But let's not confuse this by

seeking to increase Islamic education into the types of things

that Mr Clarke is talking about. So is Mr Clarke wrong? Why has he

identified the Association of Muslim Schools - I take your point that you

weren't necessarily involved in some of the schools being investigated -

but you do work in faith schools, in private schools, in voluntary-aided

schools and your role is to increase Islamic education? That is correct

but let me say again that I haven't seen the report. Obviously, all we

have seen so far is the exstracts in the Guardian. I think there is a --

extracts in the Guardian. I think there is a fundamental

misunderstanding of the role of AMS. AMS is an organisation that assists

schools who come to it. It is a membership organisation. It does not

enforce what should or should not go on in schools. In fact, Mr Clarke no

doubt has highlighted that the Department of Education state-funded

schools, are the ones that he has highlighted. He has highlighted

academies. He has highlighted. Let me finish, because it is important

that the AMS does not go into schools and dictate what should or

should not happen in schools. All right. What is your response, then,

to Mr Clarke's - Mr Clarke saying he has evidence of a"... If they are

matters he has highlighted and those are matters that he needs to take

into account Let me say this - these are state-funded organisations, some

of which he has highlighted. The difficulty and we have seen from the

Ofsted inspections, that offstead inspect os are going into schools

and they are raising issues, for example, that libraries in this

schools are not balanced. Now, let's take a typical example. If an Ofsted

inspector goes into a school and says there is not sufficient text on

English books, etc, where is the guidance for that. Let's look at the

sexual education issue which has been a big issue also. Where is the

guidance from that? Religious education is also a big issue, where

is the guidance? Tolerance is an issue, where is the guidance on all

of this. I think this is where the Government needs to concentrate and

give guidance to these schools to say - look, this is where we want to

see things. All right. Let me come to you, Harris Rafiq, because we

have heard there from the Association of Muslim Schools, from

Mr Patel saying he doesn't feel his association had anything to do with

what was allegedly going on in the schools being investigated but the

criticisms are quite stark from the leaked extracts. Do you think,

though, that by talking about a Trojan Horse plot, and by talking

about alleged violent extremism, in a which, it has masked what has

really been going on in some of the Birmingham schools? Yes, I think

that perhaps the original Trojan Horse document, per se, was found to

be something written by somebody who wanted to highlight what was going

on. I think we need to put that to one side. We need to focus on what

the findings of the investigations were. The Ofsted findings were very

clear. Peter Clarke's findings, although we haven't seen the full

report, we have seen extracts of it, are they clear on what it suggests

what it has found. If the case is - as it has been proven - than there

is an agenda where there are library books in certain schools n primary

schools where children are taught that in an ideal Islamic state

anybody who is an apostate or anybody who commits adultery should

be stoned, that's something we need to fix and should sort out. I'm fed

up with organisations who may have as the head as the AMS has, the head

of the organisation, the founder of the organisation, who has these

views and has written a become about it. I think that's maybe where

people may be in denial of what organisations that may assist

schools, such as the ASM, have. Because if they believe these, how

can they support a school? Is the problem that there is a conflict

here between British values and what the Government talks about British

values in schools and particularly these schools which have been

investigated in Birmingham, and roles of organisations, who are

promoting Islam and the two don't really come together? To be frank, I

think people are getting into a rather abstract conversation about

things which we can't quite get a handle on, like what are British

values. I think there is a more fundamental problem here, which is

very, very simple - how can it be that in a city like Birmingham,

which is whatever it is, 25, 30, 40% minority that there are 20, 25

schools which are 90% Muslim children? The problem here is not

some conspiracy. It is a simple fact that we have a schools' system which

allows effective segregation and in that situation, it is almost

inevitable that some schools are going to operate according to

different rules because that - if I may finish - that is what the

parents and actually the communities close to those schools actually

want. Do they? Do they... We have to make a decision about whether we

think this is OK or not? Let's reframe the deba. If we talked about

racism. You would say any school that you thought had low moral

values or any school that was inferior, or any school that is

different to them. That's a not the issue. It is. If you look at the

Ofsted report and the findings from Peter Clarke, there have been many

instances where teachers have been classing white women with low moral

values, and white women as white prostitutes. And there are teachers

who have been driving a particular racist segregational agenda and this

is aeted problem. Irrespective of whether it is a ghetto of people who

are 90% Muslim or not. If somebody is racist, if there is an Islaist

totalitarian agenda, there is a problem. Do you think a children is

going to be able to save that in a classroom where 40% of the children

are white? Would they get away with it? This morning, Sarah Hewitt

Clarkson, a head #250e67er, not of one of the schools investigated but

a school in the area and she was interviewed as part of the Clarke

inquiry, she said she had a number of aggressive Muslim men pushing an

Islamic agenda and in the past h female teachers, as you were saying,

that parents said demanded they wore headscarves when they left the

school. Is it acceptable even if 95% of the children are Muslim? It is

inevitable if that is the composition of the school. It is not

like there is a choice. The only way to prevent this happening, unless

you have stepped on the premises every single day, is to make sure

that we do not have schools which essentially become wholly of one

ethnicity. I agree with your analysis of the fact that there is a

particular property, one particular faith in this instance, but I do not

believe the majority of Muslim parents in the Birmingham area or

you have stepped on the premises every single day, anywhere else want

their children to be taught certain views that are racist, homophobic,

that our segregationist, that will set them up later in life to not be

the most positive contributing adults and British citizens that

they could be. I do not believe the majority of parents want that. What

do you say to that? It is an obvious point that does not even need to be

made. The majority of parents believe in British values and the

key to these schools is the headteachers, the key to these

schools is the governing bodies, and the key clips Mike but they have

been put under pressure by governors, by parents, who are

pushing according an Islamist ethos which they should not be doing. Wren

if it is an Islamist ethos in contradiction to British values then

that is clearly wrong. We are in a British system, it is a British

school and that is paramount. If they want to teach Islamist values

against that, that is fine. But we are in a British education system

and the government needs to look at the regulation and management of

these schools, which are state funded.

It's just 10 months until the next general election -

as if I needed to remind you. With the polls tight,

politicians will be fighting for every available vote.

But a report written by our guest of the day, Trevor Phillips,

says that all political parties need to do more to woo ethnic minority

voters in particular, as Eleanor Garnier has been finding out.

Croydon, where more than 100 different languages are spoken. It

is predicted that the percentage of people from black and ethnic

minority communities here will rise to 57%. Which parties are picking up

the votes? Croydon Central is a marginal constituency. It is held by

the Conservatives with a majority just under 3000 votes. At the recent

local elections, the Tories lost control of the council. Now it is

Labour who are in charge. The boom in the BME population means

politicians on all sides in Ards no seats need to take note. The Labour

Party, who most BME communities would four, the issue is not about

being complacent but working as hard as possible to retain the vote. --

vote for. Those parties who have not enjoyed the BME vote, they need to

recognise that those votes are out there to be won. That warning to

political parties is echoed in a report co-authored by Professor

Webber. In the early years when BME migrants came, it was ashamed they

would come to live act. But now they are moving into middle-class suburbs

so it is questionable but they will vote for the same party. So if the

BME vote is on the move what is influencing how people vote? Is it

parents, culture, friends, or political parties? I think it is

friends, family, the culture. Family would influence me. -- would not

influence me. It is my own decision. What influences you when you fold? I

look at the government and what it does for the people, their manifesto

and all that. My family are very independent. Myself, I am on the

brink of what politicians are saying. Community leaders say there

is another significant challenge. The reality is there are a lot of

concerns within communities. Those concerns will not be addressed if

people do not actually engage more practically. There is a big issue of

a small population of BME are registered to vote. We want to

encourage more people to register. Out of 650 MPs, just 26 or from

black and ethnic minority backgrounds. All political parties

know there is a long way to go until Westminster truly reflects the

diversity of the whole of the UK. From an electoral point of view, how

important is the black and ethnic minority vote? Imlach pretty

important. About a quarter of Labour's vote are ethnic minority

and black. Over the next 25 years, the minority share of the electorate

is going to climb and it is claiming more rapidly in this country than

anywhere else in Europe. In about 25 years' time it could be up to 40% of

the electorate. Decisions made now we'll really have a major impact on

parties' outcomes over the next 20-25 years. So Labour has an

in-built advantage because of tradition and history. Is that

changing or will they be the beneficiaries of that increasing

share of the vote in the next few elections? It is changing a bit but

it is not changing at the rate anybody imagined it would do. It

used to be the case that Labour would take 85% of the minority vote

and are it is about 70%. There is no indication that there's going to

change radically. There is no history anywhere in the Western

world of what you might call a culturally inflicted vote changing

its choice very rapidly. It takes generations. That will make it

difficult for you. If you just look at the numbers voting for Labour in

the past, if the number of black and ethnic minority voters continues to

go up, and it is a very slow swap over to the Conservatives, you will

struggle to win an outright majority? It is long-term but in the

debate on this we must perhaps the most obvious point, which is that as

a child of emigrants, maybe third generation immigrants, they come to

this country because they are ambitious. They want a better future

for their children, they want the best schooling, and if we as a party

can tie that in and make sure our values resonate there there is...

But you have failed to do that. As Trevor said, this is about the

long-term and being consistent. We need to talk about our Conservative

Party is and how they are immigrant values of the -- are Conservative

Party values. Let's talk about how you are losing the share of the

vote, do you accept that? I do not accept that. I do not accept that

Labour takes any votes for granted. They have been accused of taking

working class white voters for granted and the ethnic minority

voters. Politics is about relationships with communities and

reflect on what people's needs are within a political discourse and

Labour has had a strong history with the Race Relations Act and things

since then. There are issues about representation in politics. We have

seen measures like diversity targets on public wards, which the

Conservatives to go away. What you have to say is high a political

party is representing the needs and issues of the diverse community in

politics? -- is how is a political party. Was there a perception that

the Tories are anti-immigrant and that legacy exists, and it is

hampering your attempts to woo ethnic minority voters? I am an East

African seek, so the irony is quite strong. -- Sikh. Never say never in

politics. It is visible message, BME voters are no different from anybody

else. I have the same values. It is as tying in and making sure we make

the connection. There is one other point. They are making decisions

about how they are affected by the cost of living crisis. People have

housing problems, employment problems, but there are still

fundamental inequalities in our society which politics has to

represent, whether that is the higher levels of unemployment in BME

communities, how that differs from different areas, whether there is

representation in fair treatment with public services. You cannot

gloss over those matters. You have two ask if politics represented. I

am glad she raised that point. She is right, there is an issue around

unemployment. If you look at the last five years we have seen a

narrowing of the gap in terms of levels of unemployment. Generally

across BME communities as a whole, the whole point is about social

mobility. Nobody from a BME background want equal access and a

fair crack of the whip. Do they see that as link to the Conservative

Party? Which policies could they say, if you're from an ethnic

minority community, that is because they are a Conservative government?

I am from a state school and a further education college. Rather

than taking the BME voters at face value, we have engaged. There is a

Sikh school pursuing academic access in my constituency. There is a

political denial which affects British politics. In the US they

accept it is about race. The reason minorities do not vote for

Conservatives is because they think the Conservatives do not like them.

That is more important than anything. One of the very

interesting pieces of research that came out in 2010 was that Labour

supporters, black or white or non-white, had no difference in

their views about the economy, all of those kinds of issues. There is

only one thing that minority Labour voters and white Labour voters

differed on and that is attitudes to immigration. The gap between white

Labour supporters and minority Labour supporters was as big as the

gap between white Labour supporters and white conservative supporters.

The point I am making here is, it is true that on a lot of issues

minority voters are particularly different to white voters. The

things they think are most important make them very, very different. In

order to increase representation, ethnic minority short lists - are

the edit thing? I think it is important that we seek people coming

through into our politics. In my constituency we have people who are

active within political networks, whether they are from an African

background, Sri Lankan, Indian, other South Asian, Pakistani, you

have got to see people coming through who are feeling

have got to see people coming are valued, part of the sphere of

politics, people coming forward as counsellors and standing for

Parliament. The most important thing, irrespective of the economy,

is the presence of people like them in front line politics. You better

get out onto the campaign trail. Now, foreign ministers are meeting

in Brussels today to discuss what action the EU should take over

the Malaysia Airlines flight that David Cameron told the Commons

yesterday that if the Russian President, Vladimir

Putin, could not end his support for the separatist rebels in Ukraine,

then Europe and the West should be prepared to "fundamentally change"

its relationship with Moscow. As Philip Hammond arrived

for the summit he said a clear message had to be sent to Russia.

The meeting today is an opportunity for us to send a clear signal to

Russia. We are pleased there is movement now on repatrioting the

victims. Pleased that there is some access being granted to the site but

we mustn't forget the overall all, that this terrible incident happened

in the fist place because of Russia's support to the separatists

in eastern Ukraine and we have to address that issue today. I shall be

urging my colleagues and our partners to send a very clear and

strong signal to Russia. REPORTER: Do you think some European countries

are putting self-interest first? Look, everybody wants to see a

balanced set of measures as we go forward. The world has changed since

the European Council last week. The events of last Thursday have changed

public expectations upon us, and we have to send a clear signal today

that we recognise that and there go further. I'm joined by our Political

Correspondent Ben Wright from Brussels. That's the rhetoric. What

about action that can be realistically agreed, Ben? The

meeting began with a minute's silence, everybody stood up, then

the Dutch Foreign Minister spoke first and said action needed to be

taken because of Russia's support for the rebels. But, as you say, Jo,

lots of rhetoric, I don't think it is going to be matched by action

here today. My sense is that at the end of this discussion, there will

be a commitment to come up with a list of names andentities and

companies that will be subject to fresh sanctions, particularly people

and companies close to to the Russian President, Vladimir Putin

and his cronies within the Kremlin but what there won't be, I don't

think, is any action at all on broad sector sanctions, economic and

financial sanctions. There has been discussions about an arms embargo.

Very difficult to do. European countries have all sorts of

different self-interest at play here. That practically, movement on

those sanctions is a long way down the track. Is that bus of

self-interest. We heard Philip Hammond being asked that,

self-interest in countries like Germany and Italy, reliant on Russia

for gas and also the financial relationship. Is that the block on

sanctions, to stop it going further? There is a technical block in terms

of the legality of implementing the sanctions. It would need the

agreement of all European Union heads of government to move on to

the so-called stage 3 sanctions, the sector-wide one which would really

hurt the Russian economy. That requires agreement and there

arisation that the foreign ministers don't have. Then there is the fact

that all sorts of countries have their own different relationships

with Russia. Countries like the Netherlands, like Germany, heavily

reliant on Russian energy. There is an established military relationship

between France and Russia. Controversial lit French were about

to sell the two warships at a cost of ?1.2 billion that the French

Government seems to have no interest in stopping at this late stage. All

that Russian money running threw the City of London. There would be a

price to play in different ways and different European countries if

those sorts of broader economic sanctions were followed through. At

the moment I don't think there is the agreement, the appetite to go

down that route. Thank you.

Foreign Ministers in Brussels are also discussing the situation

Overnight the Israeli offensive against Hamas continued.

Since 8th July, 605 Palestinians have died.

According to the Israelis, around 180 Hamas militants have

27 Israeli soldiers and two Israeli civilians have also lost

Let's get the latest from our correspondent in Gaza,

Can you bring us up-to-date with what is happening at the moment?

Well here in Gaza for the past few hours we have had an intense aerial

bombardment by Israel. We woke up to the sound of air strikes close to

our hotel. You can hear the drones at the moment there. Has been

shelling to the east of Gaza city. In those neighbourhoods. And also

going south from there. We heard from health officials that some 50

Palestinians have been killed since midnight local time across the Gaza

Strip. So, really, the fighting here continue very intensely as those

diplomatic efforts gather pace in Cairo. We have the US Secretary of

State, John Kerry there, meeting officious from the Arab League and

Egyptian officials and the US Secretary-General, Ban Ki-Moon has

been in Cairo. He is going to go and meet Israeli officials and will make

his way to Ramallah to meet officials there. Is there any

realistic prospect that this fighting will stop any time soon,

whilst these diplomatic negotiations continue? Well, certainly on the

ground at the moment it doesn't feel like it. What Hamas is insisting

upon, when you speak to Hamas officials s their conditions for a

truce must be met. They feel it is not sats frack trito have a

reimplement igs not satisfaction tri. It is to have a reintroduction

of a previous truce. Hamas at the moment are asking for the release by

Israel of many of their prisoners from Israeli jails. There has been a

round-ups by Hamas in the weeks before this offensive, which is what

led to the breakdown between Hamas and Israel and Hamas also wants to

see an easing of the very tight border restrictions that are imposed

on the Gaza Strip both by -- by both Israel and Egypt and there has been

a change in government in Egypt and it is a military-led government, led

by the Muslim Brotherhood group, and that has led to a deterioration of

the quality of life here. Complr Is there anything that the

West can do to solve this? We need the European Union, and the Israeli

Government to work together to show leadership and to act as an a honest

broke. Yet again it has been shown that Israel has shown complete

disregard for humanitarian issues. 600 people are dead, mainly

civilians, 100 thousand seeking refuge. We need the European Union

to be a strong voice in recognising, of course, that Israel needs to

maintain its security but its reaction and response is not

proportionate. We need the European Union, including the British

Government, to speak up and work towards resuming peace negotiations,

which have been completely elusive over recent years. How does Israel

maintain its security without this sort of silence that escalates?

Well, this sort of violence and the death of so many people,

particularly Palestinians, of course, there have been casualties

on the Israeli side as well but the vast majority have been

Palestinians, won't secure Israel, won't provide long-term security.

What we need is the international community to work together. But,

also, Israel needs to respect international humanitarian law,

international law generally and that's not happening. Has Israel

disregarded humanitarian and international law by going into Gaza

in the way they have? No, not at all. Apart from anything else, the

very muted response, and indeed in many cases a very encouraging

response for Israel from the international community is, I think

testament to the fact that it is playing, not just by the rules but

by the most stringent rules imaginable. The reason why the

casualties exist in the Gaza is obviously because Israel is trying,

as an operational objective to stop Hamas and other jihadist groups from

firing rockets into Israel. In order to do that Israel is carrying out a

very, very targeted campaign. It is inevitable in that, that civilians

are going to be killed. Let mow finish. One of the reasons why it is

targeted, because they are trying to get launchpads where the rock

receipts coming from. One of the reasons why there is a problem

andence dentally CNN has a tape of this, amongst others, ham has has

been edge couraging the people of Gaza to protect the houses of Hamas

commanders, to congregate around areas where Israelis have texted to

say - this jr going to be hit. Ham has is trying to maximise the

casualties. -- this jr going to be hit. Ham has is trying to maximise

the casualties. The international community - this

is the third time now this has happened, and I would suggest. It is

more than the third time. There has been this exchange since 2007. We

will look at the operational and what actually both sides are hoping

to achieve but Rushanara Ali you said at the weekend that David

Cameron failed to show international leadership, "My party is with you

and the friends of Palestine are with you." Do you have Ed Miliband's

support for your line on this conflict? Ed Miliband has made it

clear that the incursion, the ground incursion, rebels, will European -

rebels, will European - he said this only yesterday - the ground

incursion is not one that is supported. We recognise Israel's

demand, as Ed Miliband has said, for its security. But its response has

been disproportionate and the point about international leadership is if

you look at what David Cameron said in 2010, he described the blockade

of Gaza as "an open prison", "Gaza an people are suffering." The

collective fault of Hamas as well as Israel? Of course. These groups -

the public and Palestinians are suffering. And leaders have a

responsibility to respond. The last thing is there have been a series of

ground and air operations by the Israeli ge fence force by Hamas and

there are half a dozen. The rockets still continue to come into Israel.

So the question is. Are these innocent Palestinians losing their

lives for nothing? The Israelis are not achieving their aims. The

rockets continue from Hamas. All right, you are saying they hide

their munitions, rockets and militant leaders in civilian

buildings but in the end, the Israelis have not stopped the

rockets coming in and more Palestinians are dying. Anyone

interested in bringing peace to the region have to bear in mind the

serious learn curve the Israelis went through after withdrawal in

2000 #5, they got not peace from Gaza but rocket fire, thousands and

thousands of rockets. Since they have been trying to stop the rocket

fire. Since 2007 when Hamas did a military coup in the Gaza and killed

their fellow Palestinians, the Israelis have on three major

occasions gone in. The problem with this is that the international

community tends to allow Israel some weeks in order to achieve the

operational objective. They are going to lose international support,

aren't they? The crucial thing to add, it is very important that

Israel is allowed to win at some point. The international community

is quite good at prolonging the conflict by not... What does a win

look like in this case, can there ever be a military solution to this

problem of, particularly, Gaza, and Israel, rather than the West Bank

and Israel? It is a platitude, but it happens to be true here. There

are going to be no winners here, whatever the outcome. I think that,

you know, speak personally, my heart is rather with has been said, but I

have two caveats, one is that I really dislike the tendency,

particularly from the media here always to put Israel in the dock

here. The truth of the matter is that the people of Gaza actually

voted for Hamas and they voted knowing what would happen. Hamas has

been very clear, it has no intention of making peace with Israel. So,

actually, you know, this is a horrible, cruel thing to say - this

is the result of a democratic outcome. And, by the way, the really

bigger issue here is Egypt because that's what really has made the big

difference here. And Egypt is also worried about being on the border

with Gaza. The peculiar thing is Israel and Egypt, relative to Gaza

are in exactly the same position right now. I think the notion of the

way that we tend to report this, which is that it is Israel verses

suffering Palestinians, is just not right. That's not what this is

about. Rush an aria ally. What is it that Hamas wants to achieve. What is

it - amean Trevor Phillips said people voted for Hamas, as owe

foesed to Fatah and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, they

voted for Hamas, knowing they would be much more hardline. So what is it

that they want? I hope that what Trevor is not saying is that by

voting for Hamas, those who voted were, in some way, are now deserve,

you know the punishment, collective punishment. It is not collective

punishment. An outrageous thing to say. You know that's not what I'm

saying at all. I very much hope not. But the point is that this cycle of

violence is going on and on. The fact is that the Palestinians have

lived under occupation and Gaza... They are not under occupation. They

have their own state. The Gaza is a state It is nonsense. It is run by

Hamas. They had one election which as Trevor said the people voted for

Hamas. Hamas then killed the opposition and they have never had

an election since. They could have a a state. If they wanted it. Let her

finish her point. This seems to be a bit of am niecia here about the

history of what is happening in that region and the fact that

Palestinians don't have a state, they have, you know, lived under

occupation, they have lived under attack and what we need is, rapidly,

in order to secure peace, which is rapidly eluding this region, which

need the international community - we need the leaders in America and

Europe to work together to resume negotiations. So to what? To bring

an end to the conflict. The end of the conflict will be fastly brought

about by Hamas being thrown out of the West Bank by the Palestinians in

the West Bank by by any force available. The two-state solution,

and it is a dream but still a possible dream. Do the Israelis

believe in that? I think they do with the West Bank. The

irreconcilable problem at the moment s what do you want to do with Hamas

which wants to annihilate the Jewish state and does not want peace? #1y50

the agenda is being controlled by people who don't want peace, whether

it is the settlers, with West Bank, or its Hamas. That is aeted problem.

How do we wrestle an agenda out of the hands of those groups of people,

who, by the way, are not states, these are gangs. University funding

is back in the spotlight with claims that the government's new student

loan scheme could cost more than the previous system. The Business,

Innovation and Skills Select Committee has produced a report

warning that the taxpayer is losing 45p on every ?1 loan to students.

You is what the Labour chairman had to say. The rate of default on loans

is rapidly reaching 50%. It is currently at 45%. At that point it

becomes an economic. This is being made more difficult because the

government is committed to increasing the number of students by

60,000 in the 15/16 intake. We have an underlying problem and the

addition of the students will only make it worse. I am joined now by

Megan Bond, the vice president for higher education at the National

Union of Students and the director of the Social Market Foundation. Can

you argue that the fact that this is costing so much shows the taxpayer

is taking the strain of the system rather than the student? What is

really clear from this committee report is that the current system is

being funded by public money. The government is actually

being funded by public money. The government is funding it at the

wrong end of the system. Instead of funding students to go through the

system, they are writing get off at the end. -- writing that's off. This

could cost the Godman more than the previous system. -- cost the

government more. It is close to reaching the tipping point, where it

will cost the