22/07/2014 Daily Politics


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Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics.


The report of former counter terrorism officer,


Peter Clarke, into the Trojan Horse plot is about to be published.


So was there a conspiracy to promote hardline Islamic values


As the bodies of the almost 300 killed on flight MH17


are handed over by Ukrainian rebels, will European Foreign Ministers hit


Another night of violence in Gaza, as Israeli forces continue their


Who's to blame for the continued blood-shed?


And as MPs head off on their hols, Adam hits the beach with a bunch


us for the whole programme today is the former Chair of the Equality and


Human Rights Commission, Trevor Phillips. Welcome to the programme.


First this afternoon - the Prime Minister is hosting


poverty, early and forced marriage and, crucially, the practice of


female genital mutilation - or FGM - within a generation. Home Secretary,


Theresa May, spoke to the conference earlier.


Today the Government is pleased to announce an extensive package of


reforms, underlining the UK's committed to improve the lives of


the thousands of girls and women in this country at risk of FGM and


enforced marriage. Our laws must protect victims, which which is why


we have criminalised forced marriage and why we are strengthenening our


laws on FGM. We will give victims of FGM anonimity during court cases.


Do you think during the past, that a blind eye has been turned or they


have not taken up the cause of FGM because of cultural sensitivities? I


wouldn't use the phrase "turned a blind eye" but I would say none of


us accorded it the seriousness which it deserves. This is something, in a


sense which takes place out of sight and doesn't in anyway affect the


majority of the population. I think, to some extent what happened is,


everybody said this is something we will deal with tomorrow, or, I


think, less credibilitily, some people, I think, would take the view


- we don't want to interfere with people's cultural rights and all


that kind of nonsense. I think it is a mixture of things, but I suspect


the main problem was - we just didn't treat it as being important.


And now it is. And you think that is the right approach? Is it right that


doctors and social workers and other health professionals will be under a


mandatory obligation to report cases of FGM if they expect it is either


going to happen or has happened? In general I'm against using the law to


try to curb people's behaviour. However, I think in this case it is


so serious -- and frankly, you know, we can get a bit muddled up by


getting into issues of culture here. This is simply an assault, full


stop. It doesn't matter who is doing it for what reason, it is an I a


assault and needs to be stopped. If we have to use the law to achieve


that, so be it. Do you think the law will be necessary in order to


convince and stop people, as you say, assaulting young girls and


young women? It is women, it is not just going to be about education? I


don't think education - people talk about education but frankly, I think


that soft way out. In the end - the people and families who do this


think that - they don't need to be educated. They know all about it and


they simply believe that, if you like, their way of looking at the


world is superior to those who think this is a bad thing. So my view is


that as a community, if we genuinely believe that this is unacceptable in


our society, we have to use all the tools at our disposal, which


includes threatening criminal sanctions. One of the problems will


be exporting it, if you like, that actually it can happen abroad and


then the girls are brought back in. How do you stop that? I don't think


you can stop - because you can't. This is common in Egypt. It is


common in Somalia. People there think we are a bit bonkers to get


into a state about it. I think the only thing you can do, and which is


why the law will now affect parents and teachers and so on, is to make


sure that everybody is looking out for signs of this, so this where it


is possible for a teacher or for a clergyman, as it is mostly men in


this case, to spot the signs of something going to happen, they can


intervene. I think that's the only thing you can do, to put


responsibility on the gate keepers, on the people who have authority in


communities. All right, let's leave it there.


Now the former head of the Met Police's counter-terrorism


unit, Peter Clarke, says there is evidence that there was an agenda


to introduce "an intolerant and aggressive Islamist ethos


That's according to reports of the findings of an inquiry he's


headed into the so-called "Trojan Horse" plot in the city.


Mr Clarke says there was evidence of, "A sustained and co-ordinated


agenda to impose upon children in a number of Birmingham schools


the segregationist attitudes and practices of a hardline and


The report highlighted a range of problems such as the bullying


and intimidation of head teachers, changes to the curriculum


and education plans, including increasing the faith component,


governors overstepping their responsibilities by restricting


schemes of work and insisting on an Islamic approach to subjects.


A number of institutions came in for criticism - Birmingham City


Council had failed to spot the emerging pattern in its schools


and the Department of Eduction was accused of "benign neglect" and not


The report also singled out the Muslim Council of Britain


and the Association of Muslim Schools, saying they were


behind a movement to increase the role of Islam in education


Joining us now from Birmingham is Rafiq Patel of


I will be talking to Harris Rafiq of the think-tank Quilliam.


The leak of the report identifies the Muslim Council of Britain and


the Association of Muslim Schools as being the driving forces to increase


Islam in education. What I would like to clarify in terms of the


Association of Muslim Schools, they are an organisation that has no


statutory framework in terms of enforcing any type of you


legislative matters into schools. In fact one of the matters that is very


important is that the schools that have been targeted by Mr Clarke's


report, are, in fact, not AMS schools. They are in fact


state-funded schools and they are ah cad mis. Now, in terms -- academies.


Now, in terms of Islamic education, like Catholic, Christian and Hindu


schools, etc, of course it is important that many students and


many parents want their children to go to a faith-based school because


of the more or less and the ethos. But let's not confuse this by


seeking to increase Islamic education into the types of things


that Mr Clarke is talking about. So is Mr Clarke wrong? Why has he


identified the Association of Muslim Schools - I take your point that you


weren't necessarily involved in some of the schools being investigated -


but you do work in faith schools, in private schools, in voluntary-aided


schools and your role is to increase Islamic education? That is correct


but let me say again that I haven't seen the report. Obviously, all we


have seen so far is the exstracts in the Guardian. I think there is a --


extracts in the Guardian. I think there is a fundamental


misunderstanding of the role of AMS. AMS is an organisation that assists


schools who come to it. It is a membership organisation. It does not


enforce what should or should not go on in schools. In fact, Mr Clarke no


doubt has highlighted that the Department of Education state-funded


schools, are the ones that he has highlighted. He has highlighted


academies. He has highlighted. Let me finish, because it is important


that the AMS does not go into schools and dictate what should or


should not happen in schools. All right. What is your response, then,


to Mr Clarke's - Mr Clarke saying he has evidence of a"... If they are


matters he has highlighted and those are matters that he needs to take


into account Let me say this - these are state-funded organisations, some


of which he has highlighted. The difficulty and we have seen from the


Ofsted inspections, that offstead inspect os are going into schools


and they are raising issues, for example, that libraries in this


schools are not balanced. Now, let's take a typical example. If an Ofsted


inspector goes into a school and says there is not sufficient text on


English books, etc, where is the guidance for that. Let's look at the


sexual education issue which has been a big issue also. Where is the


guidance from that? Religious education is also a big issue, where


is the guidance? Tolerance is an issue, where is the guidance on all


of this. I think this is where the Government needs to concentrate and


give guidance to these schools to say - look, this is where we want to


see things. All right. Let me come to you, Harris Rafiq, because we


have heard there from the Association of Muslim Schools, from


Mr Patel saying he doesn't feel his association had anything to do with


what was allegedly going on in the schools being investigated but the


criticisms are quite stark from the leaked extracts. Do you think,


though, that by talking about a Trojan Horse plot, and by talking


about alleged violent extremism, in a which, it has masked what has


really been going on in some of the Birmingham schools? Yes, I think


that perhaps the original Trojan Horse document, per se, was found to


be something written by somebody who wanted to highlight what was going


on. I think we need to put that to one side. We need to focus on what


the findings of the investigations were. The Ofsted findings were very


clear. Peter Clarke's findings, although we haven't seen the full


report, we have seen extracts of it, are they clear on what it suggests


what it has found. If the case is - as it has been proven - than there


is an agenda where there are library books in certain schools n primary


schools where children are taught that in an ideal Islamic state


anybody who is an apostate or anybody who commits adultery should


be stoned, that's something we need to fix and should sort out. I'm fed


up with organisations who may have as the head as the AMS has, the head


of the organisation, the founder of the organisation, who has these


views and has written a become about it. I think that's maybe where


people may be in denial of what organisations that may assist


schools, such as the ASM, have. Because if they believe these, how


can they support a school? Is the problem that there is a conflict


here between British values and what the Government talks about British


values in schools and particularly these schools which have been


investigated in Birmingham, and roles of organisations, who are


promoting Islam and the two don't really come together? To be frank, I


think people are getting into a rather abstract conversation about


things which we can't quite get a handle on, like what are British


values. I think there is a more fundamental problem here, which is


very, very simple - how can it be that in a city like Birmingham,


which is whatever it is, 25, 30, 40% minority that there are 20, 25


schools which are 90% Muslim children? The problem here is not


some conspiracy. It is a simple fact that we have a schools' system which


allows effective segregation and in that situation, it is almost


inevitable that some schools are going to operate according to


different rules because that - if I may finish - that is what the


parents and actually the communities close to those schools actually


want. Do they? Do they... We have to make a decision about whether we


think this is OK or not? Let's reframe the deba. If we talked about


racism. You would say any school that you thought had low moral


values or any school that was inferior, or any school that is


different to them. That's a not the issue. It is. If you look at the


Ofsted report and the findings from Peter Clarke, there have been many


instances where teachers have been classing white women with low moral


values, and white women as white prostitutes. And there are teachers


who have been driving a particular racist segregational agenda and this


is aeted problem. Irrespective of whether it is a ghetto of people who


are 90% Muslim or not. If somebody is racist, if there is an Islaist


totalitarian agenda, there is a problem. Do you think a children is


going to be able to save that in a classroom where 40% of the children


are white? Would they get away with it? This morning, Sarah Hewitt


Clarkson, a head #250e67er, not of one of the schools investigated but


a school in the area and she was interviewed as part of the Clarke


inquiry, she said she had a number of aggressive Muslim men pushing an


Islamic agenda and in the past h female teachers, as you were saying,


that parents said demanded they wore headscarves when they left the


school. Is it acceptable even if 95% of the children are Muslim? It is


inevitable if that is the composition of the school. It is not


like there is a choice. The only way to prevent this happening, unless


you have stepped on the premises every single day, is to make sure


that we do not have schools which essentially become wholly of one


ethnicity. I agree with your analysis of the fact that there is a


particular property, one particular faith in this instance, but I do not


believe the majority of Muslim parents in the Birmingham area or


you have stepped on the premises every single day, anywhere else want


their children to be taught certain views that are racist, homophobic,


that our segregationist, that will set them up later in life to not be


the most positive contributing adults and British citizens that


they could be. I do not believe the majority of parents want that. What


do you say to that? It is an obvious point that does not even need to be


made. The majority of parents believe in British values and the


key to these schools is the headteachers, the key to these


schools is the governing bodies, and the key clips Mike but they have


been put under pressure by governors, by parents, who are


pushing according an Islamist ethos which they should not be doing. Wren


if it is an Islamist ethos in contradiction to British values then


that is clearly wrong. We are in a British system, it is a British


school and that is paramount. If they want to teach Islamist values


against that, that is fine. But we are in a British education system


and the government needs to look at the regulation and management of


these schools, which are state funded.


It's just 10 months until the next general election -


as if I needed to remind you. With the polls tight,


politicians will be fighting for every available vote.


But a report written by our guest of the day, Trevor Phillips,


says that all political parties need to do more to woo ethnic minority


voters in particular, as Eleanor Garnier has been finding out.


Croydon, where more than 100 different languages are spoken. It


is predicted that the percentage of people from black and ethnic


minority communities here will rise to 57%. Which parties are picking up


the votes? Croydon Central is a marginal constituency. It is held by


the Conservatives with a majority just under 3000 votes. At the recent


local elections, the Tories lost control of the council. Now it is


Labour who are in charge. The boom in the BME population means


politicians on all sides in Ards no seats need to take note. The Labour


Party, who most BME communities would four, the issue is not about


being complacent but working as hard as possible to retain the vote. --


vote for. Those parties who have not enjoyed the BME vote, they need to


recognise that those votes are out there to be won. That warning to


political parties is echoed in a report co-authored by Professor


Webber. In the early years when BME migrants came, it was ashamed they


would come to live act. But now they are moving into middle-class suburbs


so it is questionable but they will vote for the same party. So if the


BME vote is on the move what is influencing how people vote? Is it


parents, culture, friends, or political parties? I think it is


friends, family, the culture. Family would influence me. -- would not


influence me. It is my own decision. What influences you when you fold? I


look at the government and what it does for the people, their manifesto


and all that. My family are very independent. Myself, I am on the


brink of what politicians are saying. Community leaders say there


is another significant challenge. The reality is there are a lot of


concerns within communities. Those concerns will not be addressed if


people do not actually engage more practically. There is a big issue of


a small population of BME are registered to vote. We want to


encourage more people to register. Out of 650 MPs, just 26 or from


black and ethnic minority backgrounds. All political parties


know there is a long way to go until Westminster truly reflects the


diversity of the whole of the UK. From an electoral point of view, how


important is the black and ethnic minority vote? Imlach pretty


important. About a quarter of Labour's vote are ethnic minority


and black. Over the next 25 years, the minority share of the electorate


is going to climb and it is claiming more rapidly in this country than


anywhere else in Europe. In about 25 years' time it could be up to 40% of


the electorate. Decisions made now we'll really have a major impact on


parties' outcomes over the next 20-25 years. So Labour has an


in-built advantage because of tradition and history. Is that


changing or will they be the beneficiaries of that increasing


share of the vote in the next few elections? It is changing a bit but


it is not changing at the rate anybody imagined it would do. It


used to be the case that Labour would take 85% of the minority vote


and are it is about 70%. There is no indication that there's going to


change radically. There is no history anywhere in the Western


world of what you might call a culturally inflicted vote changing


its choice very rapidly. It takes generations. That will make it


difficult for you. If you just look at the numbers voting for Labour in


the past, if the number of black and ethnic minority voters continues to


go up, and it is a very slow swap over to the Conservatives, you will


struggle to win an outright majority? It is long-term but in the


debate on this we must perhaps the most obvious point, which is that as


a child of emigrants, maybe third generation immigrants, they come to


this country because they are ambitious. They want a better future


for their children, they want the best schooling, and if we as a party


can tie that in and make sure our values resonate there there is...


But you have failed to do that. As Trevor said, this is about the


long-term and being consistent. We need to talk about our Conservative


Party is and how they are immigrant values of the -- are Conservative


Party values. Let's talk about how you are losing the share of the


vote, do you accept that? I do not accept that. I do not accept that


Labour takes any votes for granted. They have been accused of taking


working class white voters for granted and the ethnic minority


voters. Politics is about relationships with communities and


reflect on what people's needs are within a political discourse and


Labour has had a strong history with the Race Relations Act and things


since then. There are issues about representation in politics. We have


seen measures like diversity targets on public wards, which the


Conservatives to go away. What you have to say is high a political


party is representing the needs and issues of the diverse community in


politics? -- is how is a political party. Was there a perception that


the Tories are anti-immigrant and that legacy exists, and it is


hampering your attempts to woo ethnic minority voters? I am an East


African seek, so the irony is quite strong. -- Sikh. Never say never in


politics. It is visible message, BME voters are no different from anybody


else. I have the same values. It is as tying in and making sure we make


the connection. There is one other point. They are making decisions


about how they are affected by the cost of living crisis. People have


housing problems, employment problems, but there are still


fundamental inequalities in our society which politics has to


represent, whether that is the higher levels of unemployment in BME


communities, how that differs from different areas, whether there is


representation in fair treatment with public services. You cannot


gloss over those matters. You have two ask if politics represented. I


am glad she raised that point. She is right, there is an issue around


unemployment. If you look at the last five years we have seen a


narrowing of the gap in terms of levels of unemployment. Generally


across BME communities as a whole, the whole point is about social


mobility. Nobody from a BME background want equal access and a


fair crack of the whip. Do they see that as link to the Conservative


Party? Which policies could they say, if you're from an ethnic


minority community, that is because they are a Conservative government?


I am from a state school and a further education college. Rather


than taking the BME voters at face value, we have engaged. There is a


Sikh school pursuing academic access in my constituency. There is a


political denial which affects British politics. In the US they


accept it is about race. The reason minorities do not vote for


Conservatives is because they think the Conservatives do not like them.


That is more important than anything. One of the very


interesting pieces of research that came out in 2010 was that Labour


supporters, black or white or non-white, had no difference in


their views about the economy, all of those kinds of issues. There is


only one thing that minority Labour voters and white Labour voters


differed on and that is attitudes to immigration. The gap between white


Labour supporters and minority Labour supporters was as big as the


gap between white Labour supporters and white conservative supporters.


The point I am making here is, it is true that on a lot of issues


minority voters are particularly different to white voters. The


things they think are most important make them very, very different. In


order to increase representation, ethnic minority short lists - are


the edit thing? I think it is important that we seek people coming


through into our politics. In my constituency we have people who are


active within political networks, whether they are from an African


background, Sri Lankan, Indian, other South Asian, Pakistani, you


have got to see people coming through who are feeling


have got to see people coming are valued, part of the sphere of


politics, people coming forward as counsellors and standing for


Parliament. The most important thing, irrespective of the economy,


is the presence of people like them in front line politics. You better


get out onto the campaign trail. Now, foreign ministers are meeting


in Brussels today to discuss what action the EU should take over


the Malaysia Airlines flight that David Cameron told the Commons


yesterday that if the Russian President, Vladimir


Putin, could not end his support for the separatist rebels in Ukraine,


then Europe and the West should be prepared to "fundamentally change"


its relationship with Moscow. As Philip Hammond arrived


for the summit he said a clear message had to be sent to Russia.


The meeting today is an opportunity for us to send a clear signal to


Russia. We are pleased there is movement now on repatrioting the


victims. Pleased that there is some access being granted to the site but


we mustn't forget the overall all, that this terrible incident happened


in the fist place because of Russia's support to the separatists


in eastern Ukraine and we have to address that issue today. I shall be


urging my colleagues and our partners to send a very clear and


strong signal to Russia. REPORTER: Do you think some European countries


are putting self-interest first? Look, everybody wants to see a


balanced set of measures as we go forward. The world has changed since


the European Council last week. The events of last Thursday have changed


public expectations upon us, and we have to send a clear signal today


that we recognise that and there go further. I'm joined by our Political


Correspondent Ben Wright from Brussels. That's the rhetoric. What


about action that can be realistically agreed, Ben? The


meeting began with a minute's silence, everybody stood up, then


the Dutch Foreign Minister spoke first and said action needed to be


taken because of Russia's support for the rebels. But, as you say, Jo,


lots of rhetoric, I don't think it is going to be matched by action


here today. My sense is that at the end of this discussion, there will


be a commitment to come up with a list of names andentities and


companies that will be subject to fresh sanctions, particularly people


and companies close to to the Russian President, Vladimir Putin


and his cronies within the Kremlin but what there won't be, I don't


think, is any action at all on broad sector sanctions, economic and


financial sanctions. There has been discussions about an arms embargo.


Very difficult to do. European countries have all sorts of


different self-interest at play here. That practically, movement on


those sanctions is a long way down the track. Is that bus of


self-interest. We heard Philip Hammond being asked that,


self-interest in countries like Germany and Italy, reliant on Russia


for gas and also the financial relationship. Is that the block on


sanctions, to stop it going further? There is a technical block in terms


of the legality of implementing the sanctions. It would need the


agreement of all European Union heads of government to move on to


the so-called stage 3 sanctions, the sector-wide one which would really


hurt the Russian economy. That requires agreement and there


arisation that the foreign ministers don't have. Then there is the fact


that all sorts of countries have their own different relationships


with Russia. Countries like the Netherlands, like Germany, heavily


reliant on Russian energy. There is an established military relationship


between France and Russia. Controversial lit French were about


to sell the two warships at a cost of ?1.2 billion that the French


Government seems to have no interest in stopping at this late stage. All


that Russian money running threw the City of London. There would be a


price to play in different ways and different European countries if


those sorts of broader economic sanctions were followed through. At


the moment I don't think there is the agreement, the appetite to go


down that route. Thank you.


Foreign Ministers in Brussels are also discussing the situation


Overnight the Israeli offensive against Hamas continued.


Since 8th July, 605 Palestinians have died.


According to the Israelis, around 180 Hamas militants have


27 Israeli soldiers and two Israeli civilians have also lost


Let's get the latest from our correspondent in Gaza,


Can you bring us up-to-date with what is happening at the moment?


Well here in Gaza for the past few hours we have had an intense aerial


bombardment by Israel. We woke up to the sound of air strikes close to


our hotel. You can hear the drones at the moment there. Has been


shelling to the east of Gaza city. In those neighbourhoods. And also


going south from there. We heard from health officials that some 50


Palestinians have been killed since midnight local time across the Gaza


Strip. So, really, the fighting here continue very intensely as those


diplomatic efforts gather pace in Cairo. We have the US Secretary of


State, John Kerry there, meeting officious from the Arab League and


Egyptian officials and the US Secretary-General, Ban Ki-Moon has


been in Cairo. He is going to go and meet Israeli officials and will make


his way to Ramallah to meet officials there. Is there any


realistic prospect that this fighting will stop any time soon,


whilst these diplomatic negotiations continue? Well, certainly on the


ground at the moment it doesn't feel like it. What Hamas is insisting


upon, when you speak to Hamas officials s their conditions for a


truce must be met. They feel it is not sats frack trito have a


reimplement igs not satisfaction tri. It is to have a reintroduction


of a previous truce. Hamas at the moment are asking for the release by


Israel of many of their prisoners from Israeli jails. There has been a


round-ups by Hamas in the weeks before this offensive, which is what


led to the breakdown between Hamas and Israel and Hamas also wants to


see an easing of the very tight border restrictions that are imposed


on the Gaza Strip both by -- by both Israel and Egypt and there has been


a change in government in Egypt and it is a military-led government, led


by the Muslim Brotherhood group, and that has led to a deterioration of


the quality of life here. Complr Is there anything that the


West can do to solve this? We need the European Union, and the Israeli


Government to work together to show leadership and to act as an a honest


broke. Yet again it has been shown that Israel has shown complete


disregard for humanitarian issues. 600 people are dead, mainly


civilians, 100 thousand seeking refuge. We need the European Union


to be a strong voice in recognising, of course, that Israel needs to


maintain its security but its reaction and response is not


proportionate. We need the European Union, including the British


Government, to speak up and work towards resuming peace negotiations,


which have been completely elusive over recent years. How does Israel


maintain its security without this sort of silence that escalates?


Well, this sort of violence and the death of so many people,


particularly Palestinians, of course, there have been casualties


on the Israeli side as well but the vast majority have been


Palestinians, won't secure Israel, won't provide long-term security.


What we need is the international community to work together. But,


also, Israel needs to respect international humanitarian law,


international law generally and that's not happening. Has Israel


disregarded humanitarian and international law by going into Gaza


in the way they have? No, not at all. Apart from anything else, the


very muted response, and indeed in many cases a very encouraging


response for Israel from the international community is, I think


testament to the fact that it is playing, not just by the rules but


by the most stringent rules imaginable. The reason why the


casualties exist in the Gaza is obviously because Israel is trying,


as an operational objective to stop Hamas and other jihadist groups from


firing rockets into Israel. In order to do that Israel is carrying out a


very, very targeted campaign. It is inevitable in that, that civilians


are going to be killed. Let mow finish. One of the reasons why it is


targeted, because they are trying to get launchpads where the rock


receipts coming from. One of the reasons why there is a problem


andence dentally CNN has a tape of this, amongst others, ham has has


been edge couraging the people of Gaza to protect the houses of Hamas


commanders, to congregate around areas where Israelis have texted to


say - this jr going to be hit. Ham has is trying to maximise the


casualties. -- this jr going to be hit. Ham has is trying to maximise


the casualties. The international community - this


is the third time now this has happened, and I would suggest. It is


more than the third time. There has been this exchange since 2007. We


will look at the operational and what actually both sides are hoping


to achieve but Rushanara Ali you said at the weekend that David


Cameron failed to show international leadership, "My party is with you


and the friends of Palestine are with you." Do you have Ed Miliband's


support for your line on this conflict? Ed Miliband has made it


clear that the incursion, the ground incursion, rebels, will European -


rebels, will European - he said this only yesterday - the ground


incursion is not one that is supported. We recognise Israel's


demand, as Ed Miliband has said, for its security. But its response has


been disproportionate and the point about international leadership is if


you look at what David Cameron said in 2010, he described the blockade


of Gaza as "an open prison", "Gaza an people are suffering." The


collective fault of Hamas as well as Israel? Of course. These groups -


the public and Palestinians are suffering. And leaders have a


responsibility to respond. The last thing is there have been a series of


ground and air operations by the Israeli ge fence force by Hamas and


there are half a dozen. The rockets still continue to come into Israel.


So the question is. Are these innocent Palestinians losing their


lives for nothing? The Israelis are not achieving their aims. The


rockets continue from Hamas. All right, you are saying they hide


their munitions, rockets and militant leaders in civilian


buildings but in the end, the Israelis have not stopped the


rockets coming in and more Palestinians are dying. Anyone


interested in bringing peace to the region have to bear in mind the


serious learn curve the Israelis went through after withdrawal in


2000 #5, they got not peace from Gaza but rocket fire, thousands and


thousands of rockets. Since they have been trying to stop the rocket


fire. Since 2007 when Hamas did a military coup in the Gaza and killed


their fellow Palestinians, the Israelis have on three major


occasions gone in. The problem with this is that the international


community tends to allow Israel some weeks in order to achieve the


operational objective. They are going to lose international support,


aren't they? The crucial thing to add, it is very important that


Israel is allowed to win at some point. The international community


is quite good at prolonging the conflict by not... What does a win


look like in this case, can there ever be a military solution to this


problem of, particularly, Gaza, and Israel, rather than the West Bank


and Israel? It is a platitude, but it happens to be true here. There


are going to be no winners here, whatever the outcome. I think that,


you know, speak personally, my heart is rather with has been said, but I


have two caveats, one is that I really dislike the tendency,


particularly from the media here always to put Israel in the dock


here. The truth of the matter is that the people of Gaza actually


voted for Hamas and they voted knowing what would happen. Hamas has


been very clear, it has no intention of making peace with Israel. So,


actually, you know, this is a horrible, cruel thing to say - this


is the result of a democratic outcome. And, by the way, the really


bigger issue here is Egypt because that's what really has made the big


difference here. And Egypt is also worried about being on the border


with Gaza. The peculiar thing is Israel and Egypt, relative to Gaza


are in exactly the same position right now. I think the notion of the


way that we tend to report this, which is that it is Israel verses


suffering Palestinians, is just not right. That's not what this is


about. Rush an aria ally. What is it that Hamas wants to achieve. What is


it - amean Trevor Phillips said people voted for Hamas, as owe


foesed to Fatah and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, they


voted for Hamas, knowing they would be much more hardline. So what is it


that they want? I hope that what Trevor is not saying is that by


voting for Hamas, those who voted were, in some way, are now deserve,


you know the punishment, collective punishment. It is not collective


punishment. An outrageous thing to say. You know that's not what I'm


saying at all. I very much hope not. But the point is that this cycle of


violence is going on and on. The fact is that the Palestinians have


lived under occupation and Gaza... They are not under occupation. They


have their own state. The Gaza is a state It is nonsense. It is run by


Hamas. They had one election which as Trevor said the people voted for


Hamas. Hamas then killed the opposition and they have never had


an election since. They could have a a state. If they wanted it. Let her


finish her point. This seems to be a bit of am niecia here about the


history of what is happening in that region and the fact that


Palestinians don't have a state, they have, you know, lived under


occupation, they have lived under attack and what we need is, rapidly,


in order to secure peace, which is rapidly eluding this region, which


need the international community - we need the leaders in America and


Europe to work together to resume negotiations. So to what? To bring


an end to the conflict. The end of the conflict will be fastly brought


about by Hamas being thrown out of the West Bank by the Palestinians in


the West Bank by by any force available. The two-state solution,


and it is a dream but still a possible dream. Do the Israelis


believe in that? I think they do with the West Bank. The


irreconcilable problem at the moment s what do you want to do with Hamas


which wants to annihilate the Jewish state and does not want peace? #1y50


the agenda is being controlled by people who don't want peace, whether


it is the settlers, with West Bank, or its Hamas. That is aeted problem.


How do we wrestle an agenda out of the hands of those groups of people,


who, by the way, are not states, these are gangs. University funding


is back in the spotlight with claims that the government's new student


loan scheme could cost more than the previous system. The Business,


Innovation and Skills Select Committee has produced a report


warning that the taxpayer is losing 45p on every ?1 loan to students.


You is what the Labour chairman had to say. The rate of default on loans


is rapidly reaching 50%. It is currently at 45%. At that point it


becomes an economic. This is being made more difficult because the


government is committed to increasing the number of students by


60,000 in the 15/16 intake. We have an underlying problem and the


addition of the students will only make it worse. I am joined now by


Megan Bond, the vice president for higher education at the National


Union of Students and the director of the Social Market Foundation. Can


you argue that the fact that this is costing so much shows the taxpayer


is taking the strain of the system rather than the student? What is


really clear from this committee report is that the current system is


being funded by public money. The government is actually


being funded by public money. The government is funding it at the


wrong end of the system. Instead of funding students to go through the


system, they are writing get off at the end. -- writing that's off. This


could cost the Godman more than the previous system. -- cost the


government more. It is close to reaching the tipping point, where it


will cost the


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