01/09/2014 Daily Politics


01/09/2014

Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Good morning and welcome back to the Daily Politics

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The Prime Minister is preparing to outline new measures to tackle the

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threat of terrorism from British Jihadis returning from Syria and

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Iraq. But are they necessary or practical?

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After his shock defection and resignation last week, will Douglas

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Carswell make history as the first politician to be elected as a UKIP

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MP? We'll assess the prospects for the forthcoming Clacton by-election.

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Is the Commons Speaker facing a full-scale mutiny from MPs over his

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choice of Commons Clerk? The former Deputy Speaker tells us why

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Australian Carol Mills is the wrong person for the job.

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And over three million people have done it, so why shouldn't

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politicians get in on the act? Keep watching to see three MPs get wet.

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All that in the next hour and with us for the whole of the programme on

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the first day of term at Westminster are the stellar team of

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former Children's Minister and Conservative MP Tim Loughton, former

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Labour Minister, Hazel Blears and the Liberal Democrat and former

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Foreign and Home Office Minister, Jeremy Browne.

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Welcome to the We will see if you stay dry for the

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rest of the programme. Welcome to the

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And if we look a bit different this afternoon, that's

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because we've relocated to the BBC's studios at Broadcasting House while

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our own studio at Westminster gets a High Definition make-over. There's

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something a little bit unusual about this studio and - if you want to

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find out more, I'll be recording a little explainer which we'll be

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putting on the Daily Politics website after the programme. So it's

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been a busy summer - particularly on the international scene with

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conflicts in Gaza, Iraq and the Ukraine. Parliament's back now. But

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should it have been recalled? Jeremy Browne? No, I don't think so.

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There is always a clamour for Parliament to be recalled and there

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are times when it is necessary, when there is a big decision that needs

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to be made to endorse what the Government is doing, but I don't

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think there has been a single black and white decision that has required

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Parliament to be recalled prematurely. Although it is good it

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is now back because it gives the House of Commons the opportunity

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over the next couple of weeks to discuss these matters and hold the

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executive to account. Hazel Blears, any action the Government decided to

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take with regard to Islamic State, should it have had the say-so of

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MPs? These are really important issues and I am delighted that the

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prominence that will make a full statement to the House and I am sure

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it will take many hours, because many MPs will have questions but I

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agree with Germany, I don't think there was a decision to put British

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troops on the ground -- I agree with Jeremy. There has not been a

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decision of that nature and I think we have we are now, we are looking

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at new legislation, new powers, new methods to tackle British youngsters

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who are going out and fighting in Syria, that is absolutely the

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business Parliament but I don't think there was a point where

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Parliament needed the emergency measure over the last three or four

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weeks. We will discuss those emergency measures. Do you agree,

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because many of your colleagues feel Parliament should have been

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recalled, although many will ask what MPs would have contributed

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mightily to contributed to the international situation the

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Schumacher it becomes a bit of a. It becomes a bit of a contest, I think

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we should have taken more action than we did. I don't think it

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required Parliament to come back and condone the action needed... You are

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talking about ISIS and the action needed? Yes, I think we should have

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helped with the air strikes and I think the Government should have

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gotten on with it, it was an urgent thing to do, as was humanitarian

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aid, but boots on the ground, action as Parliament no traditionally seems

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to need to have a say. should it have been recalled?

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It's the conflict in Syria and Iraq that's causing the biggest headache

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domestically. The brutal beheading of American Journalist James Foley -

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apparently by a British-born Jihadi fighting for Islamic State - brought

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into sharp focus the risks we could face here.

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It's estimated that 500 British Jihadis are fighting for Islamic

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State and other militant groups in Syria and Iraq, and so far 69 people

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have been arrested in the UK for Syria-related activity. On Friday,

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the Government raised the terrorism threat here from Substantial to

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Severe and is proposing new measures to tackle the threat from

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Islamist extremism. These include making it easier to remove passports

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through additional temporary seizure powers at the border and stopping

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British Citizens from re-entering the country if they are suspected of

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terrorist activity abroad. There are fears, though, that these measure

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could be against international law. leaving suspects stateless.

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Meanwhile, airlines could be required to reveal the full list

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of their passengers. There have also been calls for a return of control

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orders, used to keep terrorism suspects under close surveillance,

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and the Government has left open the possibility of supporting US air

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strikes against Islamic State in Iraq and Syria.

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And we are joined by Haras Rafiq of the anti-extremism think tank the

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Quilliam Foundation. First of all, Jeremy Browne, Ming Campbell said

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yesterday, taking someone's citizenship away even temporarily

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could be illegal under international law. He is right. I am not an expert

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but it sounds like a convincing argument. I don't want to be set up,

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if you like, as the person who is not taking this threat extremely

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seriously because Hazel alluded to this and I share her concern, and I

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think the concern of most people in this country, about what we are

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witnessing on our television screens and what is happening across parts

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of Iraq and Syria and we will see what the Prime Minister says this

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afternoon. It is not necessarily the case that every response to

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extremism and terrorism requires new laws, we may have the existing

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legislation in place, but we do need to take this threat seriously and

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should not in any way diminish the nature of the threat not to just our

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country but to secular liberalism, which I think most people value. It

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is the response most people will be interested in, they wanted explain

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to them why somebody could go out and fight British, a British-born

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Jihadi, and fight for someone? My problem is whether you can stop a

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British-born person being in Britain. There are other elements

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about what people are doing, whether they have broken laws, we need to

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toughen those laws, whether we should be arresting people, but it

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is a different issue about whether you prevent a British person from

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coming to Britain and I can see there will be technical problems

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with that. As the Prime Minister over egged what can be achieved? He

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called this press conference on Friday, he talked about an increase

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in the terror threat. Was it necessary when he hadn't actually

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spoken to lawyers or coalition partners to find out what they can

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actually do to stop British jihadis coming home, if that is what they

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want to do? He can't win, because if he hadn't done something, people

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would ask why the Government isn't doing anything. We have to look at

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this carefully, it is very serious and we will hear more this

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afternoon. There is a problem with international law, there are two UN

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conventions, I understand, that we would breach if we leave somebody

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status, but I am most concerned about knowing where these people

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are, who they are, under surveillance and hopefully put under

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lock and key if they have done some of the things in this country -- in

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these countries. We cannot let them float around in the ether and turn

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up responsible for some atrocity without us knowing. But you agree

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that a British citizen can be stripped of their citizenship, be

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made stateless, if you like, if they were coming back from Syria by a

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turkey? What would you do with them? As I say, they would be floating

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around in the ether and you can not make somebody stateless. Isn't that

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what the Prime Minister and some ministers have implied they would

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do? No, we have said we will look at how we can work with our partners

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about what we can do with these people. Their liberty may be removed

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to stop them getting involved in these atrocities in the future. What

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you think should happen to a British-born person who goes out and

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is known to have fought in Syria or for the Islamic State and tries to

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return to Britain? First of all, we have to recognise that anybody who

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does that as a British citizen has broken the law, the Terrorism Act

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that came into place in 2006, when it says that anybody who fights for

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a foreign entity that is in conflict with the UK has broken the law. So

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we have got to look at locking those people up or charging them in an

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open court, arresting them, etc. But there will be a number of people who

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come back disillusioned, who may even be ready to fit back into

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society. I think we need to look at, in the long we can reintegrate these

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people. There is another element that has not been discussed. At the

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moment, this Government is focusing on doing something with these

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individuals, either making them stateless, which I is probably

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illegal as well, or locking people up, and it is still dealing with

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intervening with individuals once they have been identified. What this

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coalition Government has not done, and I have worked with projects with

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Hazel in the past, is build resilience in the community to

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counter the narratives to prevent them going in the first place. How

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many people to think we are talking about? The Government says around

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500, is that the sort of number you would say is broadly right? 500

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British-born citizens going out or could go out to fight? The reality

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is we don't know, 500 is an estimate. Some MPs have said 1,500,

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other experts say other numbers but the reality is we don't know,

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because Turkey is one way to enter for these Jihadist, there are other

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ways, some going in through Southeast Asia and disappearing

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there, so we don't know who has gone all for what reason all wear, some

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500 seems to be a conservative figure according to some experts.

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Just bear with us there, Hazel Blears, let's pick up on this point

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on individuals. Do you think control order should be brought back? Do you

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agree with Ed Miliband, who I think says would like them reinstated for

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people who come back here and are deemed to have committed a crime

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abroad? I took the control order through Parliament and it was hugely

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controversial, because... And the coalition partners did not

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supported. They did not, it was fought tooth and nail, but one of

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the powers in the control order is to relocate people away from their

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group when they are plotting and planning. We can send people from

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London to go and live in Ipswich and if you do that, police can keep a

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better eye on them and you can remove them from their associates

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where they are plotting. And I think if we put the power back into the

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abilities we have now, it is really important. And what Haras Rafiq was

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saying, I was the author of the Prevent programme, this Government

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have virtually abandoned it, working in communities to stop the next

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generation of young people being drawn into extremism. Give the

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Government make the wrong decision getting rid of control orders? At

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the time, they weren't working properly. Would you know supported?

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It would depend what they look like. This is a very new and dangerous

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threat. -- would you now support it? We were not having hundreds of

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people going overseas to fight and this is a new situation and we must

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consider everything. You are in favour of control orders being

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brought back into deal with people who have committed crimes. What

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should the Government do? If you are counter-terrorism minister, what

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would you be advising a Labour prime minister to do? I would like to hear

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from the Prime Minister a proper package. Hardly anybody has been

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prosecuted under the law, can we make it broader? What about people

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coming back to the intelligence services think have fought in Syria

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or Iraq and they fly back from Heathrow? I would want to keep them

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under the closest surveillance I could and powers in control orders

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help us to do that. I sit on the intelligence committee, I know what

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MI5 and MI6 can do and we have to make sure they have full powers to

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keep these people under close surveillance and where they can be

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prosecuted, and if they have been fighting in Syria, they have

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committed a terrorist offence, they need to be prosecuted, convicted and

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put in jail. But we need a much bigger plan to make sure we work

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with women, young people, communities and tackle this ideology

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and expose it for what a caliphate really looks like with sharia law,

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and it is not anybody's idea of a great place to live, so let's have

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that out in the Open and a proper debate. Would you take people's

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passport away if you are suspicious of them? If you have them on a

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watchlist, absolutely. The more you can prevent this, the less you have

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to pick can prevent this, the less you have

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up the pieces when people are radicalised. Are you, as a Liberal

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Democrat, signed up to strip people of their passports? Possibly their

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citizenship temporarily? We do it with football hooligans, let alone

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people who are likely to go and express themselves in terrorist ways

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in foreign conflicts. Look, let's see what the Prime Minister

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suggests. We want to live in an open, liberal society that believes

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in the rule of law. I am nervous about control orders that involve

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moving people around the country, because I come as an individual,

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want to live in that free country, but I take it seriously and the

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Liberal Democrats take these threats seriously both in terms of the

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people who have been there, and I think it would be reasonable to

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detain them and interview them and see if they have broken the law, and

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if they have, put them on trial, and I agree with Hazel on this point,

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they are, if you like, the tip of the iceberg. There are a wider

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number of people who might be sympathetic but would not go to

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Syria and we need to address why they are sympathetic and explain

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more widely and effectively than we are at the moment the merits and

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virtues of living in an open, free, liberal, secular society. Would you

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block this package of measures if control orders are at the heart of

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it? My suspicion is the package of measures will be agreed by both

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parties before they go to Parliament. Are the negotiations

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going well? Speaker I am not a member of Parliament. The money

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being cut to prevent, was that mistake? It was a programme both

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guests have said was important in stopping people being persuaded by

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ideology. We need to do a lot more to nip this at the source and to get

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into the mind of some of these people who have come from good

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families and have decent jobs and turn up on the other side of the

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world with a machine gun as part of terror atrocities. Why are they

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might doing this? We have to engage with the Muslim communities. Some of

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the comments are helpful so that communities in this country who are

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British, who have a Muslim faith, will not tolerate this and they will

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be doing their bit before it takes hold in the minds. The brainwashing

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of some of these young people, all of these things must come into the

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mix. Are you reassured that this will happen? No. The department for

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communities, local government, was tasked to tackle this ideology, to

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come up with a strategy, and we are still waiting for it. It is

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disturbing for me as someone involved in the task force to still

:17:16.:17:22.

here politicians saying we have to explore why these people are doing

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it. We know that. It is an ideology. If we do not tackle the ideology and

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build the resilience, we will be talking in five years time about a

:17:35.:17:37.

bigger number that have gone somewhere. There are people working

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in the UK, the Muslim Brotherhood and others, who have been priming

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are youngsters for decades unchallenged. Let us do something

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about it. Thank you. Is it a) E-cigarettes,

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b) Powerful vacuum cleaners c) Bananas over 30 centimetres

:17:56.:18:05.

in length, or d) Nigel Farage. At the end of the show we'll see

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if any of our guests knows Former Conservative MP Douglas

:18:09.:18:11.

Carswell's decision to defect to UKIP and resign his Commons seat

:18:12.:18:25.

came as a bombshell last week. Its shockwaves are likely to

:18:26.:18:28.

reverberate over the coming months. A Survation poll

:18:29.:18:30.

in the constituency suggested that David Cameron faces a humiliating

:18:31.:18:32.

defeat in the constituency. It gave Mr Carswell and UKIP

:18:33.:18:38.

a 40% lead over the Conservatives. It's all an unwanted distraction

:18:39.:18:41.

for David Cameron as he tries to focus his troops on winning next

:18:42.:18:44.

year's general election. Interviewed during a walkabout

:18:45.:18:48.

in his constituency last Friday, Douglas Carswell explained that he

:18:49.:18:51.

had lost faith with the Tory I answer to local people,

:18:52.:18:54.

they are my boss. answer to them and remain

:18:55.:18:57.

in the Conservative fold, because I want serious change,

:18:58.:19:03.

I couldn't bear to spend the next eight or nine months

:19:04.:19:06.

pretending that the people at the top of the Conservative Party

:19:07.:19:08.

were prepared to give real change. I like David Cameron, he's a nice

:19:09.:19:11.

guy, he's actually quite fun, he is quite amusing company,

:19:12.:19:14.

which is rare for a politician. You have stabbed him in the back,

:19:15.:19:18.

this is pretty disastrous for him, coming just a few months

:19:19.:19:21.

before the election. I don't think I have ever

:19:22.:19:23.

stabbed anyone in the back. Maybe I have occasionally stabbed

:19:24.:19:25.

one or two people in the front. I think he is not serious

:19:26.:19:28.

about change and I have put my political career on the line

:19:29.:19:33.

and I'm saying to people in Clacton this morning if you really want

:19:34.:19:36.

change, let's do this together. We're joined now by

:19:37.:19:38.

UKIP's Patrick O'Flynn, Not that long ago, Douglas Carswell

:19:39.:19:50.

said Eurosceptics should rally around David Cameron because he is

:19:51.:19:54.

the only potential Prime Minister committed to an in-out referendum.

:19:55.:20:01.

He is right. He was wanting to give David Cameron the benefit of the

:20:02.:20:05.

doubt immediately after UKIP had forced him into that U-turn about an

:20:06.:20:09.

in-out referendum being the way to go. The early part of this year,

:20:10.:20:15.

Douglas became convinced that David Cameron not serious. And that David

:20:16.:20:22.

Cameron was at best planning area run of the Harold Wilson cynical

:20:23.:20:25.

duplicitous deceit of the British people. A kind of fake

:20:26.:20:35.

renegotiation. Given rocket boosters by the establishment. He did not

:20:36.:20:43.

find that attractive. What do you say to that? If UKIP and Douglas are

:20:44.:20:51.

serious about wanting a referendum and Patrick thinks the Prime

:20:52.:20:55.

Minister is not serious about renegotiation we can have a

:20:56.:21:00.

referendum if we have a Conservative government. By doing what he has

:21:01.:21:07.

done, he is a great thinker, I like him, but this is a serious and

:21:08.:21:11.

bizarre error of judgement. He has made having that referendum, there

:21:12.:21:20.

is no prospect of us not having a referendum on the future membership

:21:21.:21:24.

of the year. By jumping ship like this, by making it less likely we

:21:25.:21:30.

will have a Conservative government, there will be no referendum. He has

:21:31.:21:35.

shot himself in the foot. He says he has lost faith in the Prime

:21:36.:21:40.

Minister. He does not think there is anything in the renegotiation. He is

:21:41.:21:45.

not alone. It is not helpful, and if that is what he thinks, it does not

:21:46.:21:51.

matter, because he can vote now. I am part of a group and we spend a

:21:52.:21:55.

lot of time speaking to other European politicians to see how the

:21:56.:22:00.

prospects for renegotiation are and there are serious prospects. It is

:22:01.:22:04.

less likely than likely we will get sufficient renegotiation successes

:22:05.:22:09.

and if that is the case I will vote to come out, as well a lot of

:22:10.:22:14.

Conservative MPs. I want a referendum so me and my constituents

:22:15.:22:17.

have that choice to decide whether it has gone far enough. Doing what

:22:18.:22:24.

Douglas has done and what UKIP are doing makes that referendum less

:22:25.:22:29.

likely to happen. There will be many politicians who would say you are

:22:30.:22:32.

handing the election to Labour. It is interesting that Tim came close

:22:33.:22:37.

to saying that the Conservatives are going to lose the next election.

:22:38.:22:43.

That is novel. I am not sure he said that. And so the question. The state

:22:44.:22:51.

of British politics, it is a matter of trust having to be rebuilt. I

:22:52.:22:55.

remember from three or four years ago the Conservative Party

:22:56.:23:00.

passionately supporting the first past the post system because they

:23:01.:23:03.

said everyone stands for what they might believe in. People have one

:23:04.:23:08.

vote for their first choice party. They seem to think it has occurred

:23:09.:23:14.

to them that they cannot win under their system and are trying to

:23:15.:23:17.

impose some special duty to stand aside to minute you late the

:23:18.:23:25.

electorate. -- manipulate. Democracy demands that we stand and fight and

:23:26.:23:32.

offer the voters what we believe in. There have been reports of almost

:23:33.:23:37.

100 Tory MPs going into the next election with a personal pledge to

:23:38.:23:41.

leave the European Union. Will you do that? No. Our group is about

:23:42.:23:50.

getting a serious renegotiation and when we have that we will decide if

:23:51.:23:55.

it is good enough. I will vote now if that really was the issue has not

:23:56.:24:01.

done enough. Why not make a personal pledge? To say that you will vote

:24:02.:24:09.

no. Make a promise in the manifesto. I did not think I was in a marginal

:24:10.:24:14.

seat, but I have said clearly that I will vote no in a referendum in

:24:15.:24:19.

2017, which we can only get under a Conservative government, if the

:24:20.:24:24.

reform has not gone far enough. If they did is less likely than likely

:24:25.:24:29.

that we will get everything we need -- I think it is. We can only do

:24:30.:24:33.

that if we have enough Conservative MPs to form a government and what

:24:34.:24:38.

Douglas has done... His leader at the last election said they would

:24:39.:24:42.

not stand against Conservative MPs who committed to a referendum on

:24:43.:24:48.

Europe, and they have done that. Will you go easy on those Tory MPs

:24:49.:24:53.

who make personal pledges in the manifesto? I am delighted to see

:24:54.:25:00.

more and more Tory MPs are shifting their position. I remember October

:25:01.:25:07.

2011. There were not 300 Conservative MPs supporting the

:25:08.:25:13.

referendum, there were 81. Against David Cameron saying it was not in

:25:14.:25:16.

the national interest. This government have no bottom line, as

:25:17.:25:23.

we have seen on education policy. People do not trust this government.

:25:24.:25:29.

Will you go easy on Tory candidates in seats where they have made

:25:30.:25:34.

personal pledges in their manifestoes? Absolutely not. If they

:25:35.:25:41.

can persuade organisations of good games, maybe at local level there

:25:42.:25:47.

will be some going easy, that applies to different parties. Brown

:25:48.:25:53.

is on the sceptic wing of the Liberal Democrats. We will come to

:25:54.:26:00.

your scepticism in a moment. What about Labour? Why is Clacton not a

:26:01.:26:07.

target seat for Labour? It used to be a Labour seat. Why are you not

:26:08.:26:12.

going for it. Is it because you have nothing to offer the people of black

:26:13.:26:25.

-- Clacton? The bread and butter of politics... We have a reread play of

:26:26.:26:28.

what happened to John Major. You remember those men in striped

:26:29.:26:38.

blazers. What do BCI again? Playing. Why is Labour not playing?

:26:39.:26:46.

You could have tapped into a nerve of the British people around Europe

:26:47.:26:51.

and immigration. Which you failed to do. What that says to all the other

:26:52.:26:56.

parties we have to have answers for the British public. I hope this

:26:57.:27:04.

by-election exposes UKIP on the NHS. They want to privatise it. They want

:27:05.:27:08.

one tax rate for everybody. None of that comes across. You are a one

:27:09.:27:16.

club pony. What about Roger Lord? One of the papers says, ie I'm going

:27:17.:27:28.

to rip his throat out. I do not think anyone could see Douglas

:27:29.:27:32.

Carswell has been parachuted into Clacton. The party followed its

:27:33.:27:36.

rules that when there is a by-election the National executive

:27:37.:27:40.

committee gets to vote on who the candidate should be. Those

:27:41.:27:47.

ridiculous assertions on the NHS, it is Labour peers in the House of

:27:48.:27:53.

Lords who wants to force charging in the NHS. UKIP stands behind the NHS.

:27:54.:27:58.

We wanted to be a National Health Service and not a world health

:27:59.:28:05.

service -- want it to be. We are not in favour of a flat tax but we want

:28:06.:28:10.

to give working people a break and keeping more of their money. When

:28:11.:28:14.

the manifesto gets written, we will know exactly. The migration figures

:28:15.:28:22.

have not helped. Net migration has soared to 243,000 and you promise to

:28:23.:28:30.

get it to under 100,000 by next year. We have not and it looks

:28:31.:28:34.

unlikely. We have to look at new measures. This business about UKIP

:28:35.:28:40.

surging in the polls, it is not just about the EU, it is about

:28:41.:28:43.

immigration, and that is going to have to be addressed. Do you think

:28:44.:28:49.

the pledge to get net migration to 100,000 is as bad as your pledge on

:28:50.:28:54.

tuition fees? Could it be as bad in the election if they break it?

:28:55.:28:59.

People will vote on what they consider to be most significant. You

:29:00.:29:05.

never really hear Conservatives taking UKIP on on the issues. They

:29:06.:29:09.

seemed to concede the issues. They say if you vote UKIP it is more

:29:10.:29:16.

likely that Ed Miliband will become Prime Minister. A lot of people do

:29:17.:29:20.

not mind whether Ed Miliband or David Cameron as Prime Minister --

:29:21.:29:29.

is Prime Minister, it is wider. I do not think we should dismiss it as a

:29:30.:29:33.

flash in the pan but I think we have to think imaginatively... They are

:29:34.:29:42.

the protest party rather than you. I think they represent some values

:29:43.:29:46.

which are not necessarily in the national interest but I think we

:29:47.:29:49.

should discuss how to take our country in the best direction.

:29:50.:29:52.

Rather than trying to outmanoeuvre them. Thank you.

:29:53.:30:03.

Now, could the Commons Speaker be facing a mutiny amongst MPs?

:30:04.:30:05.

John Bercow has upset some of them over who should be

:30:06.:30:08.

the next Clerk of the House of Commons.

:30:09.:30:10.

The candidate picked by a panel including the Commons Speaker

:30:11.:30:12.

But there are doubts about her qualifications to advise MPs

:30:13.:30:16.

Now more than 80 MPs have signed a motion demanding that Ms Mills

:30:17.:30:20.

appear before a Select Committee before her appointment is confirmed.

:30:21.:30:23.

The Commons Clerk isn't a high-profile role in the outside

:30:24.:30:26.

world, but inside the Commons chamber they're pretty important.

:30:27.:30:30.

Before the summer, I went to meet outgoing Clerk Robert Rogers

:30:31.:30:32.

Well, I think there are two aspects to my job.

:30:33.:30:40.

The principal constitutional adviser to the House,

:30:41.:30:42.

and advisor on all its procedure of business - but, of course,

:30:43.:30:45.

I have a lot of extremely able people to help me with that

:30:46.:30:48.

but the buck on those issues does stop with me.

:30:49.:30:51.

The other part of the job, which only I think two or three

:30:52.:30:54.

of my predecessors would recognise as it is now,

:30:55.:30:58.

is being Chief Executive of the House of Commons' service.

:30:59.:31:05.

Robert Rogers there. We are joined by former Deputy Speaker Nigel

:31:06.:31:11.

Evans. Welcome back to the Daily Politics, why is Carol Mills, the

:31:12.:31:15.

Australian lady, the wrong person for the job? We don't know, is the

:31:16.:31:23.

answer, but we do know there is a lot of disquiet and controversy

:31:24.:31:27.

about the appointment. I am on the public and administration select

:31:28.:31:30.

committee and the chairman, Bernard Jenkin, has suggested we have a

:31:31.:31:34.

pre-appointment hearing but since that has happened, you rightly point

:31:35.:31:38.

out that a lot of backbenchers, during recess, have signed an early

:31:39.:31:41.

day motion showing their disquiet about this. The speaker himself now

:31:42.:31:46.

appears to say let's have a look at the job, maybe splitting the job. So

:31:47.:31:52.

if that is the case, clearly today when Mr Speaker makes an

:31:53.:31:56.

announcement at 2:30 p.m., I would expect him to say that the

:31:57.:32:00.

appointment of Carol Mills now ceases and we need to look at the

:32:01.:32:04.

sort of job that is going to be advertised and, of course, if it is

:32:05.:32:08.

split, it could go to anybody to apply for either the job of a Clerk

:32:09.:32:13.

or the chief executive. And I know that all of your viewers today, it

:32:14.:32:18.

may seem a little bit mundane and arcane and navel-gazing compared to

:32:19.:32:23.

all of the other important issues, from terrorism to Ukraine and a

:32:24.:32:24.

number of other issues, that are from terrorism to Ukraine and a

:32:25.:32:27.

number of other issues, that hitting the headlines today, but most of

:32:28.:32:30.

those issues will come before Parliament and therefore we need to

:32:31.:32:33.

ensure that the mechanics of Parliament is absolutely right and

:32:34.:32:36.

that is why there is so much interest here. So you are saying

:32:37.:32:42.

that John Bercow, you expect him to climb down over the appointment that

:32:43.:32:46.

he would like to see, Carol Mills? That that will now go and there will

:32:47.:32:52.

be a process? I think there are so many senior, from Jack Straw to

:32:53.:32:57.

Margaret Beckett, across Parliament, have said they are uneasy about the

:32:58.:33:03.

process being followed and even people in Australia have questioned

:33:04.:33:05.

whether Carol Mills is the right person for the job, but I expect

:33:06.:33:09.

John Bird go to at least make an announcement that the whole process

:33:10.:33:12.

has stopped -- John De Caux. It is only fair to Carol Mills as well. I

:33:13.:33:18.

feel very sorry for her, she has been thrown into the maelstrom of a

:33:19.:33:25.

process that has gone very adrift. What about John Virgo's judgement?

:33:26.:33:37.

Has it gone awry? -- John Bercow. It is not his say-so alone, he had his

:33:38.:33:42.

own committee there. I do believe he should have had one of the Deputy

:33:43.:33:46.

Speakers on that committee. He had Lindsay Hoyle when Sir Robert Rogers

:33:47.:33:51.

was chosen and there was no deputy when this was chosen. The deputies

:33:52.:33:55.

deal with the Clerk on a daily basis and that is why I believe that if we

:33:56.:33:58.

are stopping the process, looking at the mechanics, and it comes up for

:33:59.:34:02.

re-advertising, I believe we need a deputy on that particular committee.

:34:03.:34:07.

Do you believe the job should be split? It will cost more. Well, that

:34:08.:34:13.

is one of the considerations that needs to be taken into account but

:34:14.:34:17.

we do need a select committee parliamentarians to be able to look

:34:18.:34:20.

at this particular recommendation of the Speaker, but it should be split,

:34:21.:34:27.

and it is up to them to say yes or no. I don't believe it is the role

:34:28.:34:31.

of the Speaker to say the Clerk's job should be split. There was a

:34:32.:34:35.

cross-party panel, including the likes of Andrew Lansley, a former

:34:36.:34:41.

Commons leader, Angela Eagle, from labour, and Margaret Hodge from the

:34:42.:34:44.

Labour Party, surely they were involved? They were. But they made

:34:45.:34:53.

the wrong decision. Information has come out since that there were

:34:54.:34:57.

perhaps issues in Australia, where she has expertise in Administration

:34:58.:35:02.

but no expertise at all in the Erskine May aspect of Sir Robert's

:35:03.:35:06.

job, which is sitting in front of the Speaker and giving information

:35:07.:35:10.

on a regular basis. That is the issue that needs to be resolved,

:35:11.:35:14.

that if the Speaker decided to carry on with this particular appointment,

:35:15.:35:17.

which I don't believe he will, there needs to be a pre-appointment

:35:18.:35:21.

hearing to establish whether Carol Mills is able to do the job. If

:35:22.:35:28.

not, we need a proper committee to look at the mechanics of the job and

:35:29.:35:32.

start all over again. Just before you go, the defection and

:35:33.:35:34.

resignation of Douglas Carswell has shaken things up in Clacton. The

:35:35.:35:38.

polls suggest Douglas Carswell will run away with it, and you said to me

:35:39.:35:43.

yesterday, a part of me thinks we should sit it out, it is a total

:35:44.:35:49.

distraction. I said of May. I said a part! -- I said a bit of me. But the

:35:50.:35:59.

larger part says, let's get down to Clacton and ensure we get the

:36:00.:36:02.

referendum that all of the Tories want to see an Hazel Blears' party

:36:03.:36:07.

is stopping us from getting. Let's get back and let the people decide.

:36:08.:36:17.

Have you been sat on, Nigel? Not at all, Hazel! What do you think should

:36:18.:36:20.

happen, do you think they should split the role and give Carol Mills

:36:21.:36:30.

the executive position? I would say this is a cross-party committee with

:36:31.:36:33.

the Speaker, it wasn't the Speaker making the decision. It is pretty

:36:34.:36:35.

complicated, you are the Chief Executive of the House of Commons.

:36:36.:36:39.

Robert Rogers did a pretty good job. He did, but being an expert

:36:40.:36:43.

parliamentarian as well as chief executive is not a blend, so it may

:36:44.:36:47.

well be that you need to split the roles. And there I said, there are

:36:48.:36:51.

politics being used here, there are people who do not like the Speaker,

:36:52.:36:54.

have never liked him, will never like him, and I think there has been

:36:55.:36:59.

some politicking. I will also say, and it is just my view, I wonder if

:37:00.:37:06.

there had been all of this furore if there was a man being appointed?

:37:07.:37:11.

Well, are their politics here and is it because a number of your

:37:12.:37:15.

colleagues have an axe to grind with John Bercow and it was a good stick

:37:16.:37:20.

to beat him with? I don't think it was in this case, I think he has

:37:21.:37:24.

been good as the Speaker, although I have some issues with some of the

:37:25.:37:28.

things he has done, but he has overreached. I fail to see how we

:37:29.:37:32.

have to go all the way to Australia but somebody who is not obviously

:37:33.:37:36.

qualified for the job, to take up an important role that has been done as

:37:37.:37:42.

a single role for many years, fantastically by Robert Rogers and

:37:43.:37:44.

this whole issue of whether we should split the roles, very

:37:45.:37:47.

expensive, has only come about to get the Speaker out of a hole he has

:37:48.:37:52.

dug himself into. He is there to protect the independence of the

:37:53.:37:56.

backbenchers against the executive but it may need the executive to

:37:57.:38:00.

block this post to actually protect backbenchers from a Clerk who,

:38:01.:38:05.

actually, most of us can't see why we have do have. It is nothing to do

:38:06.:38:11.

with her being a woman or a man. If anything, the Speaker is making it

:38:12.:38:14.

an issue, he is trying to show he is modernised by making it a woman, but

:38:15.:38:18.

I am sure many other good women should be considered. It is not

:38:19.:38:27.

about the sex of the person, it is about being good for the job and

:38:28.:38:29.

Parliament needs to have confidence in the person. Talking of

:38:30.:38:31.

confidence, is there any case to be made here, as some of your

:38:32.:38:36.

colleagues are saying, it should be confidence in John Bercow?

:38:37.:38:40.

It is an issue for John Bercow, if he is determined to push it

:38:41.:38:43.

through, when there are serious concerns being raised about the

:38:44.:38:47.

qualifications of this person and it is being done in the face concerns.

:38:48.:38:52.

You must have a speaker a Clerk who command the confidence of the vast

:38:53.:38:58.

majority of backbenchers -- and a Clerk. Only 85 MPs have signed this

:38:59.:39:03.

motion, that is still a minority of MPs. It is, although, strictly

:39:04.:39:09.

speaking, Government ministers don't sign them. But I think for people

:39:10.:39:13.

who are watching this back home wondering what on earth we are

:39:14.:39:17.

talking about, the crucial thing it back at delete is it is not about

:39:18.:39:22.

Carol Mills, it is about John Bercow. I voted for John Bercow to

:39:23.:39:26.

be the Speaker, and in many ways, he has been a breath of fresh air,

:39:27.:39:31.

sharper than his predecessor, and I think a lot of people admire

:39:32.:39:32.

sharper than his predecessor, and I think a some aspects of the

:39:33.:39:33.

sharper than his predecessor, and I think a lot of people admire way he

:39:34.:39:36.

does the job. But I think there is some wider discontent, particularly

:39:37.:39:40.

on the Conservative benches. It is like if you go to a rugby match or a

:39:41.:39:44.

football match, the best referees are the ones you can't remember, and

:39:45.:39:47.

there is a widespread feeling among a lot of MPs that you don't really

:39:48.:39:51.

want a rectory who thinks the match is all about him. So you don't like

:39:52.:39:58.

John Bercow? No, I am trying to explain

:39:59.:39:58.

is all about him. So you don't like John Bercow? for the benefit of your

:39:59.:40:02.

viewers why we are talking about this obscure subject and I think

:40:03.:40:06.

there is a feeling that the chair should be impartial and discharge

:40:07.:40:10.

his duties in a calm and dispassionate way and people admire

:40:11.:40:13.

aspects of what John is doing, but at the same time, sometimes think he

:40:14.:40:18.

needs a video referee to back him up. This speaker has done

:40:19.:40:21.

needs a video referee to back him up. This speaker has more to get

:40:22.:40:24.

urgent questions before the House, bringing more backbenchers, we can

:40:25.:40:26.

all agree on that. bringing more backbenchers, we can

:40:27.:40:29.

all agree Which is what he is good at. He is offside. It is the MPs'

:40:30.:40:36.

first week back after a six-week break and there is much to catch up

:40:37.:40:43.

on. We will be speaking to Isabel Hardman and James Lyons, but first,

:40:44.:40:44.

look at what is on the agenda. Tomorrow, the Prime Minister is

:40:45.:40:50.

expected to chair the first Cabinet On Wednesday will be the first

:40:51.:40:53.

Prime Minister's Questions The NATO summit begins in Wales

:40:54.:40:56.

on Thursday to discuss events in Ukraine and the future role

:40:57.:41:00.

of NATO in Afghanistan once all On Friday, the conference

:41:01.:41:03.

season kicks off in earnest. The Greens head to Birmingham

:41:04.:41:06.

for their annual gathering. Let's chat to Isabel and James,

:41:07.:41:21.

welcome to the Daily Politics, first day back and all that. Isabel, the

:41:22.:41:26.

terror measures, has there been a lot of rhetoric and in the end, the

:41:27.:41:29.

measures won't meet what is promised? I think David Cameron had

:41:30.:41:34.

to give his press conference on Friday to soften up the Lib Dems to

:41:35.:41:38.

get anything agreed at all, so announcing that the threat level had

:41:39.:41:41.

been increased and there were gaps in the armoury, as he called it,

:41:42.:41:45.

with a way of starting negotiations with coalition partners, so it may

:41:46.:41:50.

be that what we see is finally agree does not match up to the threat he

:41:51.:41:55.

was describing. What about control orders, James Lyons? We have heard

:41:56.:41:58.

on this programme and from others that micro-Labour will back them. Is

:41:59.:42:05.

that on the agenda? I think it is firmly of the agenda, and as I

:42:06.:42:10.

understand it, discussions are still ongoing -- off the agenda. We not

:42:11.:42:15.

even going to see the terrorism investigation and prevention

:42:16.:42:18.

measures, which replaced control orders, being beefed up. One of key

:42:19.:42:24.

players back at elite powers that the Government watchdog ones is that

:42:25.:42:29.

power to relocate suspects -- one of the key powers that the Government

:42:30.:42:33.

watchdog ones is the power to relocate suspects, but they haven't

:42:34.:42:37.

seen enough evidence for that. Isabel, people watching will say why

:42:38.:42:42.

can't the Government just take dramatic action to stop British-born

:42:43.:42:45.

jihadis coming back to this country if they have committed crimes abroad

:42:46.:42:50.

and won't quite appreciate all really sympathise with this idea and

:42:51.:42:55.

talk about international law and coalition negotiations, they just

:42:56.:42:59.

want to feel safe. This is a real challenge for the Lib Dems, because

:43:00.:43:04.

David Cameron gave that party back at elite conference on Friday, they

:43:05.:43:07.

are neither party blocking the tough measures. -- gave that conference.

:43:08.:43:13.

There will be talk about whether we should just be enforcing legislation

:43:14.:43:16.

more effectively rather than passing legislation that repeats what we

:43:17.:43:20.

already supposed to be doing, and whether we have the resources to be

:43:21.:43:23.

able to enforce this legislation. But it can quite easily be pitched

:43:24.:43:29.

as the Lib Dems being this nice, softy, Libertarian party who

:43:30.:43:30.

as the Lib Dems being this nice, softy, Libertarian party do not care

:43:31.:43:31.

about terror measures, so it softy, Libertarian party do not care

:43:32.:43:33.

about terror measures, will be difficult for them to make that case

:43:34.:43:38.

if that is how the debate goes. Let's move on to Douglas Carswell

:43:39.:43:44.

and his defection, James. Let's talk about Labour losing support the

:43:45.:43:48.

UKIP, because Nigel Farage likes nothing more than saying Labour MPs

:43:49.:43:57.

might be about to defect. I happen to think that it is not a problem,

:43:58.:44:00.

it is a strength for the Labour Party. It is the major card they

:44:01.:44:04.

have got to offer big business, they can say, you don't like a lot of

:44:05.:44:08.

what we are doing but if you stick with us, you won't have the

:44:09.:44:11.

uncertainty of a referendum and that is very popular in boardrooms across

:44:12.:44:15.

Britain. Is it popular with Labour MPs? There is a significant chunk of

:44:16.:44:21.

the party that would like to see a referendum, but the Douglas Carswell

:44:22.:44:25.

defection put into context what people have been talking about in

:44:26.:44:29.

terms of labour. Yes, they will lose some support, they could even lose

:44:30.:44:32.

some seeds, robber is obviously going to be a problem, but it is

:44:33.:44:37.

nothing like the scale of the problem the Conservatives have got

:44:38.:44:42.

-- they could lose some seats, Rotherham is a problem. Douglas

:44:43.:44:46.

Carswell's perfectly timed defection has opened this Pandora's box.

:44:47.:44:51.

Today, we have Tory malcontents saying they are going to put in

:44:52.:44:56.

their election addresses and will vote to leave Europe. Whatever he

:44:57.:45:01.

negotiates, you have Conservative Home making helpful suggestions,

:45:02.:45:04.

which of course are nothing of the sort, and you have Chris Kelly, an

:45:05.:45:08.

MP who many won't have heard of, but he is the ninth member of the 2010

:45:09.:45:13.

intake who has said he is standing down at the next election. He is not

:45:14.:45:18.

defecting to UKIP but has wished Douglas Carswell all the best on the

:45:19.:45:21.

way out the door. David Cameron is in a real pickle and the idea he can

:45:22.:45:25.

draw a line under Europe at the Party Conference by saying I will

:45:26.:45:41.

take Britain had if I don't get the right deal, Pat has gone and I don't

:45:42.:45:45.

see how they will put the genie back in the bottle. Isabel, it is a

:45:46.:45:48.

nightmare for David Cameron? Yes, as James says, the Labour Party are in

:45:49.:45:50.

a position of strength and the pressure has not increased just on

:45:51.:45:54.

David Cameron to increase the detail on his Europe plan, but he has to

:45:55.:45:59.

show he has a plan to reunite the right politics and I don't think he

:46:00.:46:02.

does. And the quieter he stays on that, the more agitated his MPs will

:46:03.:46:07.

become as they see UKIP threatening their constituencies and they see

:46:08.:46:11.

Douglas Carswell potentially winning the Clacton by-election. There will

:46:12.:46:15.

be more and more pressure on him to reconcile those members of his party

:46:16.:46:17.

he has lost. If you want to vote

:46:18.:46:22.

in local or general elections you have to be on the electoral

:46:23.:46:25.

register, but the way that register A new system is being brought in to

:46:26.:46:28.

cut fraud, but there are concerns it People talk about our country's

:46:29.:46:34.

long slog to build a democracy in To exercise that right we have

:46:35.:46:39.

constructed an electoral roll For many years that was done

:46:40.:46:46.

for us on a property basis with those eligible to vote registered

:46:47.:46:55.

by the rather antiquated idea After next year's general election,

:46:56.:46:57.

in a bid to make sure elections are absolutely protected from the risk

:46:58.:47:02.

of fraud, it is down to you. We only have one practical example

:47:03.:47:05.

of where individual registration was introduced, and that was in

:47:06.:47:14.

Northern Ireland just over ten years ago, and as a direct result 10.5%

:47:15.:47:18.

of people disappeared The political parties

:47:19.:47:21.

went ballistic. The Labour government of

:47:22.:47:26.

the day spent several years trying The impact

:47:27.:47:28.

in the one instance we have had in the UK where this has been

:47:29.:47:32.

introduced is quite significant and the critics of the present system

:47:33.:47:36.

have said if you did that before a general election it would be

:47:37.:47:39.

chaos. The risk of being accused of cooking

:47:40.:47:44.

the books are why total individual registration has been postponed

:47:45.:47:47.

until after the general election. Should those who want to vote get

:47:48.:47:51.

up, take responsibility If you can't be bothered, should you

:47:52.:47:55.

complain and does it matter if those I think it would be ideal if people

:47:56.:48:00.

took some responsibility The turnout is

:48:01.:48:07.

so low anyway that it would be good You want it to be

:48:08.:48:12.

representative and catch everyone. You probably want to have a

:48:13.:48:18.

quite strong communications message around it and say it and say it and

:48:19.:48:20.

say it again. It is a shame for the proportion of

:48:21.:48:23.

people who go out and make a vote. Getting as many people

:48:24.:48:27.

as possible out there to vote and It is youngsters at universities who

:48:28.:48:35.

used to be registered by the university that Brighton's Green

:48:36.:48:41.

MP, who secured a sizeable student In the past universities

:48:42.:48:44.

block registered students. Now students will have

:48:45.:48:50.

to register themselves. That may not sound like a big deal

:48:51.:48:52.

but when you're first coming to a new place away from home perhaps for

:48:53.:48:56.

the first time, overwhelmed by the many things happening in your first

:48:57.:48:59.

few weeks at university, bothering to work out how to register to vote

:49:00.:49:04.

probably isn't top Ensuring that is not an issue is

:49:05.:49:06.

the responsibility of local electoral officers

:49:07.:49:10.

and local authorities who hold the register, and they will be expected

:49:11.:49:13.

to publicise and drive through the There is a requirement on them

:49:14.:49:16.

to carry out certain processes. We will be monitoring them and

:49:17.:49:22.

if we do not think they are taking prompt action we will be

:49:23.:49:25.

following up with them and giving them support to do what they need to

:49:26.:49:28.

do, and ultimately we can take With turnouts ever lower and

:49:29.:49:31.

concerns of democratic deficit, turning that tide with this change

:49:32.:49:37.

may be harder than you'd think. We're joined from Westminster

:49:38.:49:44.

by Katie Ghose of the campaigning She is also a member of the Labour

:49:45.:49:47.

party. Is it not up to individuals to get

:49:48.:49:58.

themselves registered and if they cannot be bothered that is their

:49:59.:50:04.

loss? You are right. The big changes going from households to

:50:05.:50:07.

individuals. A lot of young people I have spoken to do not know they have

:50:08.:50:11.

to get themselves on the register and that is why we are so passionate

:50:12.:50:15.

about getting registration in schools. We want to see same-day

:50:16.:50:25.

registration so people can turn up to the polling station, register and

:50:26.:50:29.

vote in one day. We would also like to see other innovations they help

:50:30.:50:32.

people so when you are in touch with public services, applying for a

:50:33.:50:38.

passport, or a driving licence, or sorting out council tax, you can

:50:39.:50:43.

register to vote. It is individual responsibility, but let us see that

:50:44.:50:46.

as a something we can help each other to do? How worried are you

:50:47.:50:52.

about the potential for drop-off? We heard if it is going to move from

:50:53.:50:56.

households are individuals that many people will not do it. We are very

:50:57.:51:04.

worried because it is not logical. We are talking about millions of

:51:05.:51:08.

people who could lose their say. We want to see local authorities, they

:51:09.:51:14.

are doing a lot of work already, it is their responsibility, but

:51:15.:51:17.

political parties can play their part. This is about information and

:51:18.:51:22.

awareness and everybody having a role to play. If the Electoral

:51:23.:51:25.

Commission doing enough to publicise it? The Electoral Commission have a

:51:26.:51:33.

vital road because they can do their nationwide advertising -- vital

:51:34.:51:39.

role. There will be online registration which will help

:51:40.:51:42.

enormously. That could open the door to a further registration revelation

:51:43.:51:49.

to find modern ways of getting the ball on the register. The challenge

:51:50.:51:54.

after that has defined the challenge and motivation and trust in politics

:51:55.:52:01.

-- getting people on the register. Katie mentioned local authorities.

:52:02.:52:05.

Their budgets are being squeezed. Do they have the resources to focus on

:52:06.:52:09.

some sort of publicity campaign? Yes, the bottom line for me is we

:52:10.:52:15.

have to have a system with integrity. All of us want to feel

:52:16.:52:21.

that it was done properly and applied equally to everybody and

:52:22.:52:28.

there was no fraud. Are you worried? I am sympathetic to individual

:52:29.:52:31.

registration but there is an act issue was trying to get people on

:52:32.:52:37.

the register and in my constituency there are people not on the

:52:38.:52:41.

register. Local authorities have a role to play. Would the innovations

:52:42.:52:49.

be a good idea? Some are more problematic than others but some

:52:50.:52:53.

would work well. That is a wider oneness on all of us, and you are

:52:54.:52:58.

doing it on this programme, to remind people of their civic

:52:59.:53:03.

obligations. Are you worried about it? Is Labour worried about losing

:53:04.:53:08.

votes purely because many of their supporters will not be registered

:53:09.:53:11.

because of the transfer from household to individual? As a

:53:12.:53:15.

champion of democracy I am worried about it, the Labour Party is

:53:16.:53:19.

worried and the other parties will be worried. It is very often some of

:53:20.:53:25.

the poorest people, people living in inner cities, less likely to be

:53:26.:53:29.

registered, and the essence of a democracy is that everybody has

:53:30.:53:33.

their say. If you are getting millions of people not registering,

:53:34.:53:37.

and democracy is undermined and we think probably that may be up to 5

:53:38.:53:42.

million people will not be registered because if you do it by

:53:43.:53:46.

household it is the head of the household who takes the

:53:47.:53:52.

responsibility. It is old-fashioned. I remember houses were swimming with

:53:53.:53:57.

polling cards of people who no longer live there when I was a

:53:58.:54:06.

student. The risk of fraud or losing those people. Fraud is a big issue

:54:07.:54:10.

but we have to enthuse people to vote. The last election 65% of the

:54:11.:54:18.

population bothered to vote. 18-24 -year-olds, voting for the first

:54:19.:54:23.

time, the figure was 43%. Most young people did not bother to vote. We

:54:24.:54:28.

have made it easier to go and vote. We are going to make it easier to

:54:29.:54:33.

register by doing it online. You can take a horse to water but you cannot

:54:34.:54:39.

make it went? The challenge is to restore confidence in politics.

:54:40.:54:43.

Going out to vote means something and can make a difference. 78% of

:54:44.:54:50.

people previously turned up to vote for a general election.

:54:51.:54:53.

It's a summer charity craze that's filled

:54:54.:54:55.

Everyone seems to have got in on the act, and politicians have

:54:56.:54:59.

Here's a few doing the ice bucket challenge.

:55:00.:55:02.

To you all that challenged me, I do not think it is presidential for me

:55:03.:55:05.

so I am simply going to write you a cheque.

:55:06.:55:09.

That cheque is from me, I didn't want to ruin my hairstyle.

:55:10.:55:20.

I think some of these politicians enjoy at too much. -- enjoy it. I am

:55:21.:56:09.

on College Green getting wet, which is an occupational hazard in my

:56:10.:56:15.

business. MPs throwing stuff at themselves is a good way to start

:56:16.:56:20.

the term. I have three willing victims who have agreed to do it

:56:21.:56:25.

live on air. Who are you doing this for? Crazy Hats in Wellingborough. I

:56:26.:56:45.

nominate Jean-Claude Juncker. I am doing at forming Mellencamp so. --

:56:46.:56:58.

doing it for Macmillan Cancer. Motor neuron disease Association. I am

:56:59.:57:07.

nominating Jeremy Brown, William Hague, even wear and Calum Norton,

:57:08.:57:17.

the apprentice in my office. We have not made it easy for them. Take your

:57:18.:57:35.

pockets. -- buckets. Go for it! That is called Max. I thought it would

:57:36.:57:45.

be. Sometimes I love my job. Do we have to do this with you? You

:57:46.:57:53.

have a cup of water. Jeremy Brown is looking nervous.

:57:54.:57:57.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:57:58.:58:00.

a) E-cigarettes, b) Powerful vacuum cleaners,

:58:01.:58:05.

c) Bananas over 30 centimetres in length, or d) Nigel Farage.

:58:06.:58:10.

Nigel Farage holding a banana. With a vacuum cleaner. It is vacuum

:58:11.:58:29.

cleaners. Yes. Why? It does not make it easy for itself. It is to save

:58:30.:58:35.

energy. Do you think there's going to be a rush of people buying them?

:58:36.:58:47.

It is also late. You cannot buy a Dyson for love nor money.

:58:48.:58:51.

The One o'clock News is starting over on BBC One now.

:58:52.:58:57.

I'll be here at noon tomorrow.

:58:58.:59:02.

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